Clinton Anderson clinic... who's been? what's it like?

[City Ponies]

So mom bought me tickets to the CA expo here at Clemson next month.. IDK why:lol:

I told her I'm not into that stuff.. she bought them for me to meet new potential clients.. OK.. it's was a nice gesture I will go.

What can I expect as a GM follower and a relatively anti-NH person. I will say I'm BIG on groundwork and some exercises can be good. But no carrot sticks, dancing with my horse, and circling to death here. My horses load, lead, tie, no buck/kick/rear, and respond to verbal cues. So I don't think I will apply anything new (though ya never know), but since I have to sit and watch for 8 hours a day, both days ... yea she bought tix for both days... what can I do. Without spending money on vendors :D

[[r.oo and l.ulu]]

I had a friend who was all about Clinton Anderson. The book, the products, the whole nine yards.

She bought tickets to a clinic, came back, and no longer does Clinton Anderson. :lol:

She was less than impressed with, not only Clinton's attitude (arrogant), but his lack of help in teaching the participants. I don't remember the specifics, as it's been a couple of years now, but I do remember at some point one of his assistants got on her horse and rode him in the canter for about 30 minutes. I think they were trying to accomplish lateral flexibility?

I wish I could recall what else she said, but she definitely was disenchanted with the whole deal once she came back.

An expo would probably be livable since you aren't necessarily participating, but as a GM fan, I'm sure there will be things that horrify you.

[wingedmare]

I saw him bout 12 years ago when he did a clinic at my college. He made a big show of doing a western riding program to start and sat on his horse (who fell asleep) and talked for 35 min on how to use rest as a reward for your horse, I got bored and wandered off to ride my appy....best I can tell you, for what it's worth.

[Movin Artfully]

My best friend went to a clinic. She got to watch him work an "untouched horse"....that had medicine boots on ;) She was not impressed with the marketing/"buy this" frenzy.

I say go. Maybe you learn what TO do...maybe you learn what NOT to do. Either way you might pick up something.

[Alexie]

please tell us what you think when you get back, i'm not into the commercial NH programs at all but i am interested to hear what people who already have a background in horses think about these programs

it seems to me its people starting out that get hooked in, and they don't always offer an unbiased point of view about it.
and i'd hate to be missing a trick :)

may i just ask what is GM?

[City Ponies]

please tell us what you think when you get back, i'm not into the commercial NH programs at all but i am interested to hear what people who already have a background in horses think about these programs

it seems to me its people starting out that get hooked in, and they don't always offer an unbiased point of view about it.
and i'd hate to be missing a trick :)

may i just ask what is GM?

I will give feedback.. of course!

GM = George Morris.

My mom was sweet in the idea. Go to advertise my own training methods.. try to weed out the people who dislike the idea.. kinda crowd surf. I'm thinking about trucking Reno up for the overnight since it's only 5 miles away, and showing off the GM-type method in the other ring ;) Guess what my horse can fall asleep in line-up too!

[katarine]

I couldn't and wouldn't stomach two days of him. Saw him at Road to the Horse when he managed to make an untouched sweet 2 YO attack him when he turned his back. He truly makes me queasy.

What he does that I like:
blocker tie ring for pullers
trailer loading is fine (but they all do the same stuff so that's not unique).
he is too hard on horses and 100% one size fits all. I can't abide the man.

With that said I've cliniced with Ray Hunt, and I like Martin Black, Larry Whitesell, Craig Cameron (he's ok, I don't have the shine for him I once did but he's funny as heck and a good cowboy), and the lesser known Jon Ensign.

Clinton's not worth crossing the street to see. He wants a horse sucked back and off the bridle, ready to whoa. I like them balanced and forward and eager to go, but honest. Big difference.

[City Ponies]

I couldn't and wouldn't stomach two days of him. Saw him at Road to the Horse when he managed to make an untouched sweet 2 YO attack him when he turned his back. He truly makes me queasy.

What he does that I like:
blocker tie ring for pullers
trailer loading is fine (but they all do the same stuff so that's not unique).
he is too hard on horses and 100% one size fits all. I can't abide the man.

With that said I've cliniced with Ray Hunt, and I like Martin Black, Larry Whitesell, Craig Cameron (he's ok, I don't have the shine for him I once did but he's funny as heck and a good cowboy), and the lesser known Jon Ensign.

Clinton's not worth crossing the street to see. He wants a horse sucked back and off the bridle, ready to whoa. I like them balanced and forward and eager to go, but honest. Big difference.

Dang.. I was afraid this was going to be a miserable 2 days. Well I think bringing my own horses might actually be a good idea. Even if it is so I can go ride for therapy instead of going insane.

I've heard Jon Ensign is great.

[ASBnTX]

If you ever get a chance to attend a Brent Graef clinic..it'll be well worth your time!
Can't stand C.A. :no: I had a C.A.-type-trainer label my horse as crazy because he didn't fit in the one-size-fits-all mold of C.A. training. My horse is sweet, sensitive, and forward. That style of training doesn't work for that kind of horse. That's not training, it's shoving a square peg in a round hole, at the horses expense, IMO.

[mp]

I've only watched Clinton Anderson on RFD. Based on that, I'm with the "wouldn't walk across the street" crowd. I can watch the Parellis' program if it's not too stupid and I love Larry Mahan. But I had to turn CA's program off -- he's just a damned bully.

Western/cowboy type guys I've seen or ridden with and iked: Ray Hunt, Curt Pate, John Lyons, Craig Cameron.

I think your idea of going and making contact with people who have the "what the hell?" look on their faces is a good idea. But you better do it the first day -- because they won't be back.

[monstrpony]

You know, CP--and I mean this in the kindest possible way--maybe you should just go watch and see what all of the hoopla is about. The fact that you imagine you will be welcome at the clinic site, with your own horses, so you might be able to show everyone how much better your GM-based training is (as tho CA has never seen/heard of this), leads me to believe you have had little experience with these commercial clinics. This is someone who *makes a living* off of these shows; their operation isn't going to welcome anyone with a horse who isn't an acolyte, hasn't been invited in advance and doesn't have a clearly defined role that meets CA's agenda. Unless you are a much bigger name than I suspect (in which case you'd know what the story is and your mom wouldn't have made this kind-but-perhaps-misguided gesture), you really ought to ... well, just go watch, since you're being given the opportunity. Even if you don't agree with what CA teaches, he's a big enough name that it is well worth your while to understand what he teaches so that you can speak from an informed perspective when a prospective student asks what you think of CA's training approach. Just a thought.

[Tamara in TN]

I will give feedback.. of course!

GM = George Morris.

My mom was sweet in the idea. Go to advertise my own training methods.. try to weed out the people who dislike the idea.. kinda crowd surf. I'm thinking about trucking Reno up for the overnight since it's only 5 miles away, and showing off the GM-type method in the other ring ;) Guess what my horse can fall asleep in line-up too!


well good luck with that....the followers of the "One True Way" won't appreciate the interference and you might make yourself out to be a big asshole (whether you really are or aren't) and that is no way to attract new clients

best

[City Ponies]

You know, CP--and I mean this in the kindest possible way--maybe you should just go watch and see what all of the hoopla is about. The fact that you imagine you will be welcome at the clinic site, with your own horses, so you might be able to show everyone how much better your GM-based training is (as tho CA has never seen/heard of this), leads me to believe you have had little experience with these commercial clinics. This is someone who *makes a living* off of these shows; their operation isn't going to welcome anyone with a horse who isn't an acolyte, hasn't been invited in advance and doesn't have a clearly defined role that meets CA's agenda. Unless you are a much bigger name than I suspect (in which case you'd know what the story is and your mom wouldn't have made this kind-but-perhaps-misguided gesture), you really ought to ... well, just go watch, since you're being given the opportunity. Even if you don't agree with what CA teaches, he's a big enough name that it is well worth your while to understand what he teaches so that you can speak from an informed perspective when a prospective student asks what you think of CA's training approach. Just a thought.

I am familar with his techniques, got the book & read it, used to watch him on RFD-TV until I got different cable service. And never agreed with his process early on. I do like John Lyons A LOT actually. I'm aware CA knows GM methods, but going to local shows I've noticed a lot people use NH techniques incorrectly/ineffectively and just are not exposed to GM methods. For example: at a show I reminded a fellow competitor she forgot the bit keepers for her full-cheek snaffle - her response "what are those?"

It's a public riding facility, you can rent stalls/ring any day of the week, regardless of the events going on. My point on bringing my own horse was that if I was going to spot the "what-the-hell?" type in the crowd I could offer a demonstration of my own riding style to potential clients on the spot in another ring. I know I'm not a BNT in this area, I have a few bigger regional clients, but until next show season my name won't be out there, could use the intermittent income til then.

And from the previous responses, it doesn't sound like the clinic be all to my liking and might need a good ride on my guy during breaks. But YES I am still going with an open mind!:)

[trubandloki]

For example: at a show I reminded a fellow competitor she forgot the bit keepers for her full-cheek snaffle - her response "what are those?"



Was this fellow competitor riding with your stable?

If not I can not imagine mentioning something like bit keepers to them. (And I am a bit keeper fanatic. I cringe when people do not have them or have them on wrong.)

[City Ponies]

Heck I might be able to learn why all these people are doing what their are doing in the schooling rings.... and how to help them in their own lingo. :)

[City Ponies]

Was this fellow competitor riding with your stable?

If not I can not imagine mentioning something like bit keepers to them. (And I am a bit keeper fanatic. I cringe when people do not have them or have them on wrong.)

She is a student of the lesson trainer at my barn, but doesn't board her horses there. Though none of the lesson horses have bit-keepers either. And actually the comment was made to very horsey show-mom, I explained them to her and why she should have them for the horse's sake, and she went to buy them at the mobile tack store. I try not to interfere when not approached first.. but sometimes my spectator self comes out:cool:, esp when I really like this kid and want to see her do well. I just do the horses and 3 upper level riders.

[monstrpony]

I do like John Lyons A LOT actually.

Isn't Lyons the king of full cheek w/o bit keepers??

[trubandloki]

Isn't Lyons the king of full cheek w/o bit keepers??

Yes, I think so.

[spotted mustang]

my observation on NH trainers: the bigger the cowboy hat, the less there is underneath.

[SarahandSam]

I like Clinton's way of explaining things in a very straightforward way, but I don't think he has very good "feel" for the horse and that leads him to being too harsh and bullying for many sensitive horses. One thing I'd be watching for at a live clinic: looking for opportunities where he can give the horse a release, and seeing if he does or not. I don't generally feel, watching him, like he is as subtle as he can be with the way he asks, and as quick and forgiving as he should be with his releases. His methods don't run far from a good, sensible foundation, but the "feel" just isn't there, in my opinion.

[katarine]

my observation on NH trainers: the bigger the cowboy hat, the less there is underneath.

So IYO that eliminates anyone in a cowboy hat? Who does that leave in NH land?

John Lyons is the king of full cheek snaffles without keepers, mostly b/c he's using them on western browband bridles. They don't come equipped to use keepers at all.

[spotted mustang]

it was a bit of a joke ;) I do believe there are good horsemen in cowboy hats (met a few myself), but I don't think they are part of the big money NH circuit.

Don't know anything about John Lyons, or what size hat he wears.

[monstrpony]

John Lyons is the king of full cheek snaffles without keepers, mostly b/c he's using them on western browband bridles. They don't come equipped to use keepers at all.

But WWGMD? According to our OP, GM says this is a crime, but yet she admires John Lyons :confused:

I'm (perhaps not quite so nicely) speculating that the OP's knowledge of the NH perspective isn't quite deep enough to be putting herself up against the likes of CA--not because his horsemanship is better, but because hers is incomplete. Granted, none of the commercial showmen NH types are all that, anyway--they all have flaws, not the least of which is that they put on these big shows and seldom teach anything (unless you give them a whole lot more $$$). But no one should really pass judgement on so-called NH based on exposure to these turkeys anyway. I mean, *why bother* trying to demonstrate that the GM (or any other) way is better at one of these shindigs? People will either know it already, or be so starry-eyed that it's a waste of breath to try. Perhaps better to just go, learn what you can, and go home a bit wiser. Certainly better than tilting at windmills.

I would gently remind the OP that GM, BB and RJ did Three Masters, Three Legends years ago, and all agreed that the others were superb horseman, even if their styles were different, and all three allowed/tolerated differences from their individual disciplines of choice--as long as the *horsemanship* is there. If they can be that open minded, then ...

There is a LOT more to good horsemanship than bit keepers.

[RedMare01]

I saw CA give a demonstration a few years ago...not at Equitana, but another one similar...the name escapes me at the moment. He was riding a very green three year old that was pitching a fit at being by herself in the arena and kept trying to go to the end of the arena and leave. He worked her in small circles and talked at the same time. I wasn't really impressed...just didn't see the big deal about him. I did feel sorry for the horse; you could tell her brain was just fried by all the noise and being away from other horses and she was lathered and dripping sweat. He should have packed her up and given her back to her owners, IMO, instead of trying to stick it out. But just IMO.

Caitlin

[Alexie]

he doesn't sound like my cup of tea at all

[cutemudhorse]

Well, I say go with an open mind but don't expect to take away a whole lot. He gives great groundwork excercises for people who let their horses walk all over them. Otherwise, as previous posters have stated, he doesn't really have the feel that he may talk about. He's all about himself and I don't think he has an open mind about anything else. He made it easy for me (dressage/event background) to see the point behind what real horsemen in cowboy hats can do, but he's not the end all ---- rather, he's too far over the top in what he does. I would never participate in one of his clinics. I've only seen him on TV or DVD and it's very repititious. He does a lot of overbending and rides his horses behind the bit/leg.

I liked how his basic and direct approach got my older OTTB's attention and got the respect issue resolved, but I went on to learn softer horsemanship ground techniques.

Now if you can go see Chris Cox --- I'd say go for it!!

[SLW]

So mom bought me tickets to the CA expo here at Clemson next month.. IDK why:lol:

I told her I'm not into that stuff.. she bought them for me to meet new potential clients.. OK.. it's was a nice gesture I will go.

What can I expect as a GM follower and a relatively anti-NH person. I will say I'm BIG on groundwork and some exercises can be good. But no carrot sticks, dancing with my horse, and circling to death here. My horses load, lead, tie, no buck/kick/rear, and respond to verbal cues. So I don't think I will apply anything new (though ya never know), but since I have to sit and watch for 8 hours a day, both days ... yea she bought tix for both days... what can I do. Without spending money on vendors :D

Clinton does not dance with horses, that is Pat Parelli and that man makes me loopy the times I've watched him. Given that GM's paying students are what, mostly Medal/Maclay junkies coming from show barns I suspect he doesn't deal with the rank beginner of any age that CA teaches at his clinics. Shoot, if you have $2500 to spend CA will teach you all weekend. Does GM clinic the mother of three kids who just bought her first horse at age 40 who has been riding 3 months?? :cool: The last ad I saw GM run in the COTH weekly sure looked more haughty than any ol CA ad.

From what I have observed watching in private clinic and public expo's CA approach is "no nonsense" and timing is everything- whether on the ground or mounted. As a cradle to grave hunt seat rider I have enjoyed the few times I've seen CA and incorporated some of his "stuff" into my horse work. Like that seemingly goofy lil, thin nylon halter with knots. Hell of a good tool to have on hand when working with a horse who test you or doesn't quite keep focused long enough. I use it first then progress to my race track chain lead rope over the nose/gum if needed. I don't longe on the 15' or 20' lead rope he sells, that is toooo close to the "kick zone" based on my Pony Club training from circa 1969. :eek:

Pressure and release seem to be the buzz words I have heard CA use when talking about schooling a horse or training one. He packages his ideas in a language that is simple and pedestrian if you will. At one clinic I watched a year ago there was a kind woman, pushing 60, that was clearly over mounted. At the end of the weekend, in the kindest of words and ways, he told her the horse she was riding was not suited for her and he told her why based on the facts of the weekend. I admired that in him.

Of all the NH folks I like CA and John Lyons training methods and style of delivery the best. (And I always use bit keepers with my full cheek bits. :) )

Go to the clinic for grins if nothing else.

[City Ponies]

I didn't mean to start this issue about bit keepers :) Ya know I never noticed that Lyons doesn't use them, it had never really occured to me. But I think that's a good example of taking the lessons of many good horseman and applying them into one. I like Lyons approach to starting young horses, do I like all of it.. No. But I do like it. GM is a stickler for proper equipment - bit keepers and all ;) - but do I agree with everything he says.. No. The whole bit-keepers example was to illustrate that locally some refinement, or other methods could be used, in any form it comes in. I am going to the CA with an open-mind. Maybe find something I can use on my personal horses. Watching his 30 min shows on TV is not the same as an 8 hour clinic.. hence why I asked what can I expect. I admit I don't know everything about CA, and my NH knowledge is limited to books and TV experiences, some of which I do apply to my horses. I just think "the games" and like things are excessive and ridiculous.. JMHO.

On a side note - won't be taking my horse regardless. He injured his hip sometime in the last 24 hours or so. Hoping he was just an idiot and slid in mud from all the rain recently, but I can tell it will be a couple weeks before we start any type of strenuous exercise again even if it's not anything serious.

[City Ponies]

SLW - thank you that was what I was hoping to get out of this post!! I feel the same way, some things can be used, some are silly. I will be sure to pay close attention to the pressure/release he does.

I also see the benefit of rope halters for in-your-space horses. It just bothers me that unlike you, many people rely on that and don't take the steps to teach the horse to go further in their training to respect a regular halter and lead, and stay in rope halters forever. CA (and like) are great for backyard horse owners who want to learn, problem is that I see, just from observation, that they don't seek additional help or training to progress any further post-clinic. That's kind of where I'm trying look to.

[gottalovethecowgirl]

I love his training methods! if they are done right you get a really good horse! I have gone to one of his clinics and i loved that to. He is actually into teaching the people that come and not advertising to them the whole time. Unlike some clinics i have gone to...

So, my opinion is that it is worth it:D

[katarine]

It just bothers me that unlike you, many people rely on that and don't take the steps to teach the horse to go further in their training to respect a regular halter and lead, and stay in rope halters forever

May I humbly suggest you are too young to grasp the arrogance of your words, and the plain fact that a rope halter, just resting on a horse's face - is not doing anything but sitting there, resting.

Note that Clinton used to use stiffer rope that stood off the horse's face more so he wasn't wrapped in respect lessons 24/7. Then he went to soft, drape-y rope that tweaks pressure points 24/7 on the horse's face. You figure out why.

Happy owner and daily user of rope halters made by Clinton's PREVIOUS supplier, thank you very much :cool:. I highline and picket in rope halters, use 'em all the time, it's part of how I roll. You don't get that, but you're quick to judge it. Go ahead and look down your snoot, that high horse shows your bloomers a bit, little one.

[goldponies]

I have ridden with Clinton a couple times. Loved him. I really think most horses don't have enough respect and that's what he's all about. I ride hunters and did find my horses better broke after I used some of this methods. Have the tie rings all over my farm and horse trailer. And love my Clinton Anderson rope halters. But my horses go to shows with leather and I will lead with a chain. Take what you can from any trainer.

I saw a very old tape of PP riding a horse onto a moving trailer and thought WOW that's nuts and what a rider. Now the Linda & Pat show makes me gag. Have a boarder with her stupid carrot stick and a horse that is still nasty.

Buck and the flags..... whatever. Clinton is at least cute!!

[City Ponies]

It just bothers me that unlike you, many people rely on that and don't take the steps to teach the horse to go further in their training to respect a regular halter and lead, and stay in rope halters forever

May I humbly suggest you are too young to grasp the arrogance of your words, and the plain fact that a rope halter, just resting on a horse's face - is not doing anything but sitting there, resting.

Note that Clinton used to use stiffer rope that stood off the horse's face more so he wasn't wrapped in respect lessons 24/7. Then he went to soft, drape-y rope that tweaks pressure points 24/7 on the horse's face. You figure out why.

Happy owner and daily user of rope halters made by Clinton's PREVIOUS supplier, thank you very much :cool:. I highline and picket in rope halters, use 'em all the time, it's part of how I roll. You don't get that, but you're quick to judge it. Go ahead and look down your snoot, that high horse shows your bloomers a bit, little one.

I'm very familar about a rope halter. I don't like people relying on them as a correctional device for pushy horses without teaching them to respect a regular one. Especially for emergency purposes. I have no problem with a horse staying in one, as long as if you NEED a normal one, they will do just as fine. Its not that I don't get it. Because I'm sure your horses could picket and highline in leather halters as well :cool: It's the "what-if" instances I worry about. ;)

[katarine]

well good luck. I don't think you are likely to find new students at a CA clinic. They are his students, sufficiently sucked into the vortex. Good luck on building your own business, making your own name at what YOU do, not what you do that he doesn't do.

and what....what if instances, may I ask? I think I know, but I'll play if you will lol

[City Ponies]

goldponies... wait.. so I at least have a nice butt to stare at all day??? Hey, that does make it worth it. LOL

[trubandloki]

It's the "what-if" instances I worry about. ;)

Can you explain this. I am not sure what you mean?


I must admit that I am totally confused why it matters what type of halter one uses.


In case it matters; mine have leather halters. But I miss how it matters what type of halter one uses daily and I can not even guess what the "what-if" instances would be.

[monstrpony]

It's not the halter that the horse should be respecting, it's the person on the end of the lead. If the work is done correctly, the horse behaves respectfully with no halter at all ... and then a leather halter should work just fine, too.

[Bluey]

Too bad you can not participate with a horse.
I think that you would be surprised to what you get to experience, although I doubt that you will realize what all you learn for a long while yet.;)

I don't especially like him, but he is an effective trainer in his own way.
I don't like so much of those showy NH trainers, because they have overreactive horses, that yes, go to sleep when they don't do anything, but when they are working, they are not smooth, but rough and jumpy.

There is a fine line between a horse doing what we want and standing there uptight wondering what we will jump on them next.

Other than that, realizing that CA is basically training for reining, where horses do go way overbent, in the name of very pliable and he is one of the worst of them about it.
He is sure an effective trainer and one you can learn from, if you don't just take the high road and stand there with your mind just looking for all you would do different.
Try to leave that for later.

Do what he tells you and try to train as he will ask you to.
We can learn much from trying new things also, even if it is not our cup of tea.
Try to get a horse and go have fun, because fun it is.:yes:

[City Ponies]

Re: the halters - I use leather as well. The "what-ifs" are, say blown trailer tire, have to unload and stand on busy highway but your rope halter is magically not there, all you have is nylon POS. I would much rather want the horse to respect the handler .. as someone else dually pointed out.. regardless of halter, than the horse being out of control b/c novice owner has only used rope halter on horse and only behaves because of the pressure points when enforced.

As I said, I always intended to go with an open mind regardless. I just wanted some other posters previous experiences of the clinic itself, both from those who are NH followers and those who are more "traditional". I may bring rescue mare with me, if she gets back up to 100% health by then. She's a good ol' soul, but a little blonde inside I think :)

[katarine]

I have to say you've painted an odd picture. Who is hauling these mythic horses with only ratty halters..I'll let it go at this but really, I find your thoughts on the whole thing, not really rooted in something I can understand.

[trubandloki]

Re: the halters - I use leather as well. The "what-ifs" are, say blown trailer tire, have to unload and stand on busy highway but your rope halter is magically not there, all you have is nylon POS. I would much rather want the horse to respect the handler .. as someone else dually pointed out.. regardless of halter, than the horse being out of control b/c novice owner has only used rope halter on horse and only behaves because of the pressure points when enforced.


So, some how some novice who only ever uses a rope halter with fancy knots would load their horse onto a trailer using a nylon POS halter instead of their rope halter with fancy knots?

Not likely. Since you have described these people as being unable to do anything with their horse with out their rope halter crutch.

Try again.

[City Ponies]

I've seen rope halters become untied when used improperly... loose horse on the road, not a pretty picture. Then again.. I guess I'm just a die hard adament follower of breakaway halters and I don't feel safe in something that won't give.

[monstrpony]

I've seen rope halters become untied when used improperly... loose horse on the road, not a pretty picture. Then again.. I guess I'm just a die hard adament follower of breakaway halters and I don't feel safe in something that won't give.

Breakaway halter breaks, loose horse on the road, not a pretty picture either :confused:

I've seen plenty of loose, sloppy leather halters slip off, as well, if not properly fitted. The solution is good horsemanship, not tack choices; it is almost never simple black and white.

[TheRedFox]

If your going to this guy's clinic to try to muster up business for yourself, good luck with that. Could you imagine going to a GM clinic and trying to do the same thing? Imagine taking your horses to the same facility he is giving his clinic at, pulling people aside and saying "hey, you wanna see how you're really supposed to ride?"

You obviously relatively young, full of yourself and dont know everything there is to know about horses and riding. If you did, you would get your ass off of your shoulders and observe with an open mind. You might not agree with his teaching methods, but you will walk away learning something you didnt know before. If you are going to this clinic with your uninvited horses and attitude in tow, you will be digging your own grave. Like the guy or not, its hugely disrespectful and not the place to do your networking. The best thing for you to do for yourself is 1)to go, observe, LISTEN and keep your mouth shut or 2) dont go, and still keep your mouth shut until you have more business than you know what to do with. The horse world is very very small and you dont need to burn any unnecessary bridges. Just my two cents.

[City Ponies]

If your going to this guy's clinic to try to muster up business for yourself, good luck with that. Could you imagine going to a GM clinic and trying to do the same thing? Imagine taking your horses to the same facility he is giving his clinic at, pulling people aside and saying "hey, you wanna see how you're really supposed to ride?"

You obviously relatively young, full of yourself and dont know everything there is to know about horses and riding. If you did, you would get your ass off of your shoulders and observe with an open mind. You might not agree with his teaching methods, but you will walk away learning something you didnt know before. If you are going to this clinic with your uninvited horses and attitude in tow, you will be digging your own grave. Like the guy or not, its hugely disrespectful and not the place to do your networking. The best thing for you to do for yourself is 1)to go, observe, LISTEN and keep your mouth shut or 2) dont go, and still keep your mouth shut until you have more business than you know what to do with. The horse world is very very small and you dont need to burn any unnecessary bridges. Just my two cents.


Ya know what.. normally I'm level headed about this type responses but I've had a pretty crappy day and not really in the mood for toleration.

If you READ my original post, my mother bought me the tickets TO advertise, it was not my idea. I'm not going to throw away $50 my mother spent when it's $50 they don't have for such things by not going. I am going to try, yes make money by just going and talking to other local people who are going. WHO the hell ever said I was trying to teach them a different method from CA? Not me! I specifically said that I've noticed people tend to attend clinics to get the best the can, but don't follow through on refinement. I'm going to offer my services as an alternative option for people who WANT to learn more with hands-on training more regularly that is not well-offered around here. I ALSO specifically said, by going I can learn the NH lingo and methods to better approach these type customers in a way they can use and understand.

I would've brought my horse as a personal demonstration of my riding and technique, so it doesn't seem like I'm blowing all sunshine and daisies up peoples behinds like most trainers gloat to do.

If you DID read, you would also have noticed that I've stated REPEATEDLY that I'm going with an open mind, that I could possibly use new ideas on my own horses.

I very well know how small the horse world is. But I also don't believe in the PC way of keeping your mouth shut to be polite when you don't agree. If that burns my bridges so be it, I don't deal with people well in general not something new in my life.

Your 2 cents is fine. But blasting someone without fully comprehending the situation and getting completely judgemental without all the facts really ticks me off.

[City Ponies]

The solution is good horsemanship, not tack choices; it is almost never simple black and white.

Touche.. very true. But then there are really only 2 things in the horse world that are truely black and white... paints and appys :) Trying to find some humor :cool:

[katarine]

I very well know how small the horse world is. But I also don't believe in the PC way of keeping your mouth shut to be polite when you don't agree.

One can politely, constructively and professionally disagree. Happens all the time. It's called dialog. You shooting off at the mouth? That is an unprofessional, immature, and an unwelcome monologue.


If that burns my bridges so be it, I don't deal with people well in general not something new in my life.

One can politely, constructively and professionally disagree. Happens all the time. It's called dialog. You shooting off at the mouth? That is an unprofessional, immature, and an unwelcome monologue.

Your 2 cents is fine. But blasting someone without fully comprehending the situation and getting completely judgemental without all the facts really ticks me off.

You weren't blasted, you were read and quoted and responded to, point by point, dispassionately. Reread your posts, your insinuations that you will pick off those rolling their eyes, those disenchanted, to achieve your stated goal: to build your business by taking those who aren't happy with CA, away from him, out of his audience, etc. That is what you wish to do, who financed your going, is not relevant.

I don't see where we've misread you at all.

[Sithly]

I'm very familar about a rope halter. I don't like people relying on them as a correctional device for pushy horses without teaching them to respect a regular one. Especially for emergency purposes. I have no problem with a horse staying in one, as long as if you NEED a normal one, they will do just as fine. Its not that I don't get it. Because I'm sure your horses could picket and highline in leather halters as well :cool: It's the "what-if" instances I worry about. ;)

Heheh. This is such a weird line of thought. Where are you from? Do y'all make your rope halters out of piano wire, or what?

A rope halter is about as harsh as a snaffle bit. As in, a little harsher than no bit at all. :lol: Not remotely like a torture device, believe it or not. A horse is perfectly capable of leaning on one even though that behavior is slightly less comfortable than it would be in a flat halter. I'm just not buying the idea that rope halters are some majikal corrective device for the unwashed masses. :rolleyes:

Your 2 cents is fine. But blasting someone without fully comprehending the situation and getting completely judgemental without all the facts really ticks me off.

You aren't being blasted; you're being criticized for your unpleasant attitude, and it would behoove you to take some of it to heart. I comprehend the situation just fine, and I still think you're being a bit pompous, whether you meant to or not.

By and large, the people on this board ARE your target market. You're alienating people who are already somewhat on your side. That does not bode well.

If you "don't deal with people well," you're going to have a hard time in the business. Something to think about.

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=City Ponies;4395165]
If you READ my original post, my mother bought me the tickets TO advertise, it was not my idea. I'm not going to throw away $50 my mother spent when it's $50 they don't have for such things by not going. I am going to try, yes make money by just going and talking to other local people who are going. WHO the hell ever said I was trying to teach them a different method from CA? Not me!

well this sounds close to the above

I will give feedback.. of course!

GM = George Morris.

My mom was sweet in the idea. Go to advertise my own training methods.. try to weed out the people who dislike the idea.. kinda crowd surf. I'm thinking about trucking Reno up for the overnight since it's only 5 miles away, and showing off the GM-type method in the other ring Guess what my horse can fall asleep in line-up too!


that says you are planning on "hit" the people that look disgusted with what is going on and then say "look what MY training can do"

people who are into GM would not wipe a CA devotee off their boot and vice versa...

I just think it is a dangerous idea....

best

[tkhawk]

My only experience with CA is at one of the big expos. He lost me when he said something to the effect of he will never let his horse think-he always is in control and the horse should never think.

On a green horse maybe-but the trails I ride, I wan't my horse to think. To be honest , sometimes I have found my horse's judgement to be better than mine and many times mine better. But I only ride trails and after a while I expect the horse to think and figure out things-less work for me! I am not talking calculus or astronomy, just terrain, if something is spooky or not , where to place their legs and after a while to figure out if the speed is appropriate for the terrain. Now I am going to correct and expect the horse to listen-but I think any good horse should have figured out all that stuff? Maybe he was referring to something else-but just found that a bit odd.

But if you are trying to grow your business up, well I am not sure I understand. You wan't to go to a CA clinic and find people not interested in his methods or maybe trying to find people who are interested , but you wan't to provide follow up??

[TheRedFox]

Ya know what.. normally I'm level headed about this type responses but I've had a pretty crappy day and not really in the mood for toleration.

If you READ my original post, my mother bought me the tickets TO advertise, it was not my idea. I'm not going to throw away $50 my mother spent when it's $50 they don't have for such things by not going. I am going to try, yes make money by just going and talking to other local people who are going. WHO the hell ever said I was trying to teach them a different method from CA? Not me! I specifically said that I've noticed people tend to attend clinics to get the best the can, but don't follow through on refinement. I'm going to offer my services as an alternative option for people who WANT to learn more with hands-on training more regularly that is not well-offered around here. I ALSO specifically said, by going I can learn the NH lingo and methods to better approach these type customers in a way they can use and understand.

I would've brought my horse as a personal demonstration of my riding and technique, so it doesn't seem like I'm blowing all sunshine and daisies up peoples behinds like most trainers gloat to do.

If you DID read, you would also have noticed that I've stated REPEATEDLY that I'm going with an open mind, that I could possibly use new ideas on my own horses.

I very well know how small the horse world is. But I also don't believe in the PC way of keeping your mouth shut to be polite when you don't agree. If that burns my bridges so be it, I don't deal with people well in general not something new in my life.

Your 2 cents is fine. But blasting someone without fully comprehending the situation and getting completely judgemental without all the facts really ticks me off.

You're right...I didnt read all of the posts and didnt see all of the instances where you claim to arrive with an open mind until I had posted.

Judging by your response to my post, your mind is very much made up about what your intentions are at this clinic and your ass is still very much on your shoulders.

It's your funeral..do what you want.

[sketcher]

I also see the benefit of rope halters for in-your-space horses. It just bothers me that unlike you, many people rely on that and don't take the steps to teach the horse to go further in their training to respect a regular halter and lead, and stay in rope halters forever.

City Ponies, I don't think you took the advice in your venting thread, the one where it sounds like you may have some arrogance issues with older and wiser resident trainer, to heart.

[City Ponies]

I had a nice elaborate, albiet calmed down post, that subsequently got deleted. :no:

My last post was reaction from venting, being wound up from life, we all have those days.

katarine - I guess I meant, as many people who know me personally know about me, I speak up and get loud about things that irk me. I've publically outted BNT for abuse, try to stop a novice owner from doing something that they can get seriously hurt doing (even if they get mad for interfering), and yes, I speak up to help kids that I don't even know well at shows with silly things like bit-keeps so they pin well. Otherwise, I keep to myself and am very non-public, I just don't get along well with people.. love my animals.

The intent of going was for local people to understand that I am an option, they dont' know of me, don't know I exist, spreading some cards out, chatting about the ways to apply CA methods to a certain situation, how you can improve to the next step, hey here's my number if you ever need some on-the-spot work. Yes, I will get more of a reaction from people who are not NH fanatics, but going and observing can give me a more open stance on how to approach that area.

Sithly- I don't believe they are any more majikal than carrot sticks... but I've seen it been viewed that way, that's my point I guess.

Tamara - I understand what you are saying, and that's why I've changed my view since that first post, to what I described as above. I read the first couple posts that disagreed with my original statement, and thought "well rather than showing off, maybe I can learn some methods I can incorporate to those NH-type clients".

RedFox - as my opening in this post. I've had a bad day, took it out on you for assuming too much of me (one of my huge pet peeves about people in general). And I unfairly jumped on you, so I apologize. However, negatively doesn't spark creativity .. or something like that.

Sketcher - I'll admit a lot of my frustration and hostility on this thread is due to said trainer. We mended fences, I used the kill her with kindness routine. She was asking me to ride schoolies to sharpen them up again, working together well. Until I got the new rescue horse in for training, she's tried to take over control. Off-topic - Long story short, mare has foundered in the past, we're doing corrective trimming, but she's still ouchie on the foot. She keeps trying to push me to start riding horse more heavily b/c she has a buyer that HAS to know what she's like. My short sweet answer "No, she's not ready yet." And yes, I blew my fuse today, Reno hurt his back bad 2 days ago and is on stall rest. Farrier came today, she decided to let farrier do him first without me there, and did not tell him about his sore back and he might try to resist behind. Luckily BM showed up in time, trainer was about to turn him out. Yes, she knows he's hurt and I want him in a stall. I'm sorry to everyone I've been pissy to, but I get really mad when someone doesn't know follow directions when it comes to my personal horses.


ANYWAY - can we get back to prior experiences???

[Observer123]

This is directed mainly toward the poster City Ponies, concerning your inquiry about Clinton Anderson's training methods. First let me say that I've never personally met a totally devoted "English" rider who believes they can learn ANYTHING from ANYONE "Western." So I expect if you are English-Only, you will go to this tour with more of a closed mind than you will admit, even to yourself. But bear this in mind...Clinton Anderson is from Australia...he started out riding English...and he was a top ranked Polo Crosse rider in his youth. He didn't start out "Western." But now, he IS primarily a Reining major with minors in Cutting and Reined Cowhorse as his PERSONAL disciplines of choice. However he teaches a more "general" type of horsemanship and training that is all about gaining the respect and control of ANY horse before we take it in whatever specialty or discipline of choice.

His methods and the rope halter, etc. are merely TOOLS that function to make the training easier on horse and human. Just as a German Martingale would be used in TRAINING to quicken the training process. You do not NEED to use those tools...but in my opinion, the stiff rope halter is the best thing ever made for early training. The tools very EFFECTIVELY speed up the process because they function to get the horse to understand faster. Once you have worked these methods....you should feel like you could stand on the side of the highway with a string around that horse's head and have no problems. THAT is the POINT of this type of training. Once your horse "gets it" you can use any kind of halter you want...because it's the new MINDSET of the horse that is creating the CONTROL...not the HALTER. Teach it...get the respect, trust and the confident horse...and you won't ever NEED that chain shank around it's nose!!!

The exercises are designed so that if they are taught correctly...the horse will become so light and responsive both on the ground and under saddle that it's completely under control with two fingers worth of pressure at any time in any situation. It teaches them NOT to be overly reactive and do silly things...but to remain calm and think. A horse like that is a TRUE JOY to handle, work with or compete with....or just ride the trails with...because you can TRUST the horse in any situation. And that's a joy no matter how advanced a rider you are or what kind of saddle you ride with.

I never realized until the past few years, just how many people were fearful...fearful of horse behaviors...fearful to handle difficult horses...and fearful to ride more spirited, difficult or green horses. I spent all my time around advanced horse people who did not have these fears. Whatever horses dished out was handled with confidence. But I've been around more novice horse people lately...and their fear is primary in every interaction with horses. There are thousands of people out there who are fearful. And they happen to be the owners of difficult, poorly trained horses. MOST average people can't afford to have a trainer. Those people either give up on horses out of fear...or they keep getting rid of a difficult horse that they might have been able to keep if they knew safe and EFFECTIVE methods to get the horse respectful, quiet and under control.

Beyond those basics...Clinton Anderson's methods are VERY effective and easy to understand by any level horse owner. The same methods...applied with varying degrees of pressure depending on the nature of the horse...work for aggressive horses as well as sensitive or fearful horses....and every personality type in between. Many of the exercises are very effective even on more advanced horses of any discipline who could use some fine tuning. Everyone, no matter how advanced or what discipline you ride...wants a willing, easily controlled horse with a good attitude; that you can trust in any situation.

I've used these methods on a completely untrained, very aggressive 4 year old stallion who enjoyed trying to kill me and everyone else who tried to handle him. Within a couple of weeks, he was my best buddy. Once we worked the basics of the program...he was the happiest horse I've ever worked with. After just weeks of working with him, he would happily do anything I asked of him, and he would come running across the pasture to greet me when he saw my CAR coming up the drive. Previously, this same horse would aggressively charge any person who entered the pasture. People could not go out there to get other horses. I started him under saddle without him batting an eye about it. The program totally transformed this horse in a very short time. Shortly afterward, he was sent to a novice English lesson barn and is used by novice kids in lessons. He does Hunter and over fences.

I have also used the exact same methods on a foal of 3 months old all the way up to starting her under saddle. She went to her first show at 5 months, before she was even weaned. She showed in the conformation and In-Hand trail class and won both. Her behavior and manners were perfect...she totally outshined much older horses in her level of training and behavior. I showed her in-hand and in the Longe Line class as a yearling with perfect behavior, manners and beautiful steady gaits. She won many classes and ALWAYS got compliments from judges and other exhibitors about how good her behavior was and how advanced her training for such a young horse. She was not spooky in any situation. She could be trusted in any situation.

When I started her under saddle, she didn't even blink from the very first ride. After only 25 days of riding training at the w/t/c...I entered her in a show. Her green-ness was apparent compared to the older and experienced horses...but her behavior was perfect. I could ride her anywhere with total confidence in her behavior.

Another example was a nasty little English lesson horse that was very green and bucked every student the other instructors tried to have ride her. I had my beginner Western student start from the basics with the Clinton Anderson program with this horse. Within 6 months she was showing her in Western Pleasure, Horsemanship, Showmanship, and Trail class to ALL first place wins. She went on to receive 5 year end Championships and before the show season was over...just for kicks...she now rides her completely bridle-less in any pattern at every speed...in complete control...even jumps courses bridle-less with her.

If this program is taken seriously and applied CORRECTLY...it is EFFECTIVE in every way it's meant to be.

Clinton Anderson won't teach you how to train an Olympic show jumper...but his methods are completely EFFECTIVE...if done PROPERLY...to solve just about every problem with a horse that stems from fear or lack of respect. And many of the more advanced exercises are for total body control and collection. It's wonderful to have a horse that will just stand there quietly for anything and then snap to attention in an instant and do whatever you ask of them. It's wonderful to trust that you can lead a horse around by a string and have complete confidence in it. It's wonderful that you can point a finger and have it move out your space. It does not matter if you want to do Reining or Show Jumping...a safe, respectful, trustworthy, confident horse is the entire POINT of the Clinton Anderson program. For advanced riders...you can learn all the moves you need for Dressage or for Reining.

But as someone said...MOST people go only to see the 2 day tour...which is merely a brief INTRODUCTION to the methods. Most cannot retain what they saw and go home and apply it PROPERLY. Some simply don't GRASP the connection between gaining respect on the ground and riding. Some don't GRASP how the specific exercises work to accomplish that. Sadly, even a 3 day clinic with beginners who bring their horses...3 days is just not enough to get huge results. It's intended that participants build on that. But again...MOST just can't retain enough to properly continue the work at home. It really takes having a more in-depth knowledge of each of the techniques, the purpose of them, and how to properly and effectively apply them.

[TheRedFox]

Dont apologize to me, City. I've been in your shoes before and I understand how you feel. There is a lot of good advice here that people have given you. Take some time and read through it and use what you want.

Here's a quick story:

I just got back in the saddle after 10-11 years and knew I would need to work with a trainer. I went to the local tack shop to inquire about a woman that I trained with years and years ago and found out that sadly, she had passed away. I asked the shop who they would recommend I go to at this point and they gave me a name of a farm and a husband and wife team. Before I checked the place out I ran into someone on the Chronicle Boards that knew of this trainer who was new to the area. Not-So-Glowing remarks were said about him and his wife and the condition of the barn that they took over and I was very hesitant to go check it out, much less talk to the guy. I was told that he was arrogant and very proud of the people that he trained with. To say the least, I was very turned off by my new prospect.

I decided a week later to go out to the barn and see for myself what this guy and his wife were all about. The barn was immaculate, the horses were outstanding and the gentleman trainer was everything I hoped for in a trainer and more( I had my mind made up as I observed his class and before we were introduced). It has been a long time since I have been in a facility in this area as top drawer as the one he and his wife are running. I am so fortunate to have found him and what a wonderful trainer he has turned out to be for me. I will die when he moves away which I am sure will happen sooner or later. Point is, sometimes you just have to go find things out and form your own opinions based on your own experiences.

[City Ponies]

Observer - Can I tell you how much I love you? LOL And thank you so much. I do both English and Western, though just personally enjoy jumping objects a bit more :)

I was interested if he would get into the more advanced techniques at the 2-day clinics, things that I can apply like collection work, and laterals, at a different level or system that I do now. Yes, I'd love to figure out how to teach my horse to be more sensitive to my aides. He knows his job, and like yours has been easy as pie since day one, and similarly showed him after 3 weeks of undersaddle training. But the flying lead-change bridleless would be a cool trick to our resume ;)

I really appreciate your post. Very insightful of his methods, and what I can expect.

What I was trying to grasp from this OP, was what others who are predominately non-NH, or even NH followers, viewed as his clinics. To the non-people, were you THAT turned off? Did you come away with anything? To the NH people, was it ENOUGH for you? Did it go beyond the basics?

I guess looking back I should have just started with that as my OP. Hindsight, damn you being 20/20.

[City Ponies]

Red Fox - I understand. And I'm a stickler for staying out of gossip-y situations. You work with 25 other girls under the age 25 for 9 months... it gets real hard, but you get real good doing it! LOL. I'm not a judge a book by the cover kind of person, I do try to get the best out of every interaction I am approached with. And my intensions for my OP was to truly find out what I could expect from multiple standpoints. I admit I get defensive easily, character flaw, but I guess with riding it's always been - You can either ride with me or ride against me, and the results will determine the outcome. Not just with showing, but training, even how I approach the horses themselves. What is that saying? You will never get anything done if you work in halves?? Something like that. I'm not a one way or the other kind of person. I'm as scatter brained as the next, but I'm very all or nothing. I'm strong in my convictions, but willing to change them if the situation works the best. Does that make any sense?? The halter/bit-keeper examples were quite trivial and irrelevant, but I did get overly sensitive.. it's been a rough week!

[Romo]

I read this thread yesterday and then low and behhold turned on RFDTV last night and watched a CA show and Chris Cox show back to back. I don't have much experience with either of these men's theories, but it did turn me off a bit when CA was lunging a horse on a very small circle with mecate (sp?) reins and said that if a horse can't figure out how to lunge when you have a hold of the OUTSIDE rein, then they are pretty stupid and you should just get rid of them. ???? Seemed to be a bizarre thing to say, especially on a show that teaches NH methods. I then watched the CC show and actually really enjoyed it. His explanations were clear and concise, and he demonstrated everything in a manner that made me actually want to try some of his exercises. I think I would jump at a chance to clinic with CC after watching his program, but the jury is still out on CA after last night.

[TheRedFox]

City, you remind me a lot myself at times. I'm all in and wide open or I'm not, there usually isnt much in between. Admitting fault takes a lot of integrity and courage. Riding takes practice, people take practice and life takes practice. Keep practicing and you'll do fine.

[City Ponies]

I am tired of practicing finding the right guy though... I wish we could trade them in to the government for horses or something :)

[roki143]

First let me say that I've never personally met a totally devoted "English" rider who believes they can learn ANYTHING from ANYONE "Western."

Really? That's awful closed-minded of you, don't you think?

I would have to question where you're meeting your totally devoted 'english' riders then.

[Tamara in TN]

ANYWAY - can we get back to prior experiences???

my personal been there got the shirt experience is that Van Hargis is a much better hand all around

and CA is a waste of a horsemans time

best

[Auventera Two]

Clinton Anderson is a bully. He works the ever loving crap out of horses so that they don't have the energy to resist anymore. I believe in making horses truly work, and moving their feet, but I think he goes over the line. He works on the concept of work the horse so hard that he submits what you want him to do because submitting will be easier than the hard work he's being subjected to otherwise.

For instance, longe and longe and longe until the horse willingly jumps in the trailer, just so he can rest.

Horses don't/can't learn when they're exhausted, confused, and pushed. Instead they just submit to where you're trying to stick them, or what you're trying to make them do because they just want it to be over.

But then I cherish a bold, brilliant, expressive horse. Not a dead, dull robot. I want the horse to think, to give input, and to figure things out.

I love most of the John Lyons method (not all of it, though) but I can't seem to learn anything from CA, except what "not" to do.

[City Ponies]

Auventura - Do you think that looking beyond the wearing the horse down, he has any techniques one could apply to a willing, happy, balanced horse? Say, using it in 5 minutes instead of working for 45 mins on?

[Long Spot]

City Ponies, I don't think you took the advice in your venting thread, the one where it sounds like you may have some arrogance issues with older and wiser resident trainer, to heart.

Yes. I thought the same thing.

[City Ponies]

Long Spot.. my problem with that assessment you're assuming she's wiser ;) Seriously though, It was when this thread got off-topic from experiences and onto NH v. GM that I got defensive. I'm back to just trying to get some opinions

[mp]

First let me say that I've never personally met a totally devoted "English" rider who believes they can learn ANYTHING from ANYONE "Western."

If you're using "totally devoted" as a synonym for close-minded, then those horsemen aren't likely to learn ANYTHING from ANYONE outside their realm of understanding, regardless of discipline.

The fact that I'm an "English" rider (a term that shows your own ignorance, BTW) has nothing to do with the fact that I don't like Clinton Anderson's methods.

my personal been there got the shirt experience is that Van Hargis is a much better hand all around

and CA is a waste of a horsemans time

best

When this thread first popped up, I was trying to remember the name of a clinician I watched at our barn a few years ago. He was teaching riders to get flying lead changes by having them lope their horses in a counter bend right into the arena wall. :eek:

It was Van Hargis.

[janedoe726]

CP- I'm in NC, and grew up showing in SC and NC, some even in the Clemson area. It's a really small scene around here. If you truly are looking to start a horse business, I would strongly suggest going back and editing most of what you've said in this thread. In such a small area, it would be entirely too easy to figure out who you are. I personally am not in the market for a trainer, but if I were, seeing most of the things you've posted on here (and remember- these threads stay open for a long time!) would definitely make me walk away. And probably tell many other people (not that I personally am going to do that, but the potential is there for others). This business can be cut-throat. Think about the ideas and attitudes you're putting out there- that you're not good with people, you get very defensive, etc. Would you want to give your business to someone who behaves this way? It could potentially be very damming for a new business.

[Observer123]

To City Ponies...


Please do NOT go to this 2 day Clinton Anderson tour stop and expect that you will see enough detail of his full program to go home and work a program. The 2 day tour stop is not a clinic...it's an in-depth introduction, explanation and demonstration of the methods. You will see him doing an advanced riding demonstration on one of his personal horses, to show you what CAN be achieved if you work the full program. To demonstrate some of the beginning stages of his program he uses several horses owned by local people in each area he visits...who have submitted their horses to use in his demonstrations. Some of those horses provide a more exciting experience than others.

If you are an instructor of beginners and novices...I would have to say that you should start at the very beginning with them if you teach these methods. Learn them yourself first. Get a horse...preferrably a very unruly or disrespectful horse...and work the program yourself FIRST...so can see the results...correct your own mistakes...fine tune your proficiency...and then be able to easily teach it to others.

If you start unbroke horses...there might be plenty of equally good programs out there to follow...but only equal...not better. You'd would use the same beginning program to start an unbroke horse that you would to teach a beginner student. One of the best things about this program is that it teaches horses and people the same material at the same time. But there is lots of advanced stuff later in the program...all the way up to training your horse to go bridle-less.

This is not something that can only be accomplished by professionals. My novice 12 year old rider who has only been riding for 1 year, rides bridle-less flawlessly in a big open area. I started the girl and the nasty unruly horse at the same time...together with the CA program from the beginning. As a result...SHE learned to TRAIN the horse...not just how to be a passenger on a finished horse. And the horse got the training she needed to take the girl to 5 Championships and flawlessly ride her bridle-less. This horse will do Reining maneuvers or a course of jumps bridle-less.

One thing about the rope halter...if it's tied CORRECTLY...it WILL NOT come undone. I had a 1200 pound mare pull back with my Clinton halter and lead rope on while tied to a steel 2 horse trailer that was unhitched from the tow vehicle. She pulled that trailer back about 6 feet...but my halter never broke or came off. It took a few extra minutes to untie it because the knot got so tight...but that's about it. It was terrible way to find out just how strong those halters are...but after that...I ONLY tie up with the Tie Ring. That is one of the best things ever invented too.

I forgot to mention in my last post about the terrified OTTB that I worked the program on. The sweetest personality of any horse I've ever dealt with...but a total nervous wreck and terrified of everything. The novice owner had the local "barn queen" working with him and she turned him into a basket case. She would whack on him for "BAD" behavior...that was actually "FEAR" behavior. That just made him MORE fearful. He had gotten to the point where he wouldn't let anyone mount him anymore...he was afraid of riders. He bolted one day as his owner tried to mount him...it was really bad...the owner could have been killed. The barn queen's solution was...SELL HIM. She said he's just a dangerous horse that will NEVER be safe...and you should get rid of him. The owner liked the horse and didn't want to have to sell him. A mutual acquaintance recommended that she let me work with him first before she made any hasty decision to get rid of him.

I explained to her what I would do...that I would treat him as an unbroke horse and I would start entirely on the ground with him for several weeks. She had never heard of CA, but she was okay with what I told her I would do. In this case, the horse had absolutely no bad attitude or agression...just total FEAR of everything...but it made him very unpredictable and dangerous for a less experienced person.

Just to quickly tell you the beginning and end....the first time I got near him and tried to toss the lead rope over his body...he freaked out...meltdown. The first time I attached a plastic bag to my training stick, he again freaked out and backed up at high speed around the arena for a solid hour before he would stand still and let it get near him.

By the next session with him...I could vigorously rub the plastic bag all over him while he cocked his leg. Within another session, I could tie it to the halter and let it flap against his face on the longe line or in the round pen. Another session and I could tie it to his bridle while I rode him...then I could hold it while I rode him and and flap it all over him at every gait. Doing all of this was building HIS self confidence...teaching him to think instead of freak out...and it was building his TRUST in ME. Within a couple of months...I started using a leaf blower on him. I teach all horses to accept this because I discovered that on the long, soft winter coat it works wonders to blow the dirt out of their coat that can never be completely brushed out.

This terrified horse is now the calmest horse his owner has. He can be guided on the ground or under saddle with two fingers. He can move all of his body parts in every direction with the lightest of cues. He can move out into the nicest big Hunter trot and instantly come down to a Western Pleasure jog. He stops instantly with no contact on the reins, just from the rider's seat. He also neck reins...but is mostly guided with leg cues anyway. He has the prettiest collection under saddle.

This horse wouldn't even back up under saddle when I started with him. He's a joy to handle and ride now...and his owner is THRILLED with him. My greatest satisfaction is knowing this horse won't have a bleak future because he was sold off for being "dangerous." Most likely to another novice owner who either would have gotten hurt by him or sold him off again. Or someone else whacking on him for his fear reactions...and making him totally dangerous. All it really took was a few months of working the CA program on him to completely transform him.

I can now honestly say...I've worked this program on everything from a seriously aggressive totally unbroke/untrained stallion...to a baby foal...to a nasty, green lesson horse and a terrified OTTB....all with the same great results. But it's the PEOPLE who have to fully grasp the "psychology" behind it to understand why it works just as well on ANY horse. It might take longer on some horses than others...you have to use varying levels of pressure depending on the horse personality, i.e., fearful vs. aggressive...but it will work on ANY horse.

And to the person who MISUNDERSTOOD or wasn't listening closely enough...the BIG thing about Clinton is that he DOES want the horse to use the "thinking side of their brains," rather than the "reacting side." He wants horses to THINK. What he DOESN"T want is for horses to DECIDE for the rider what you're going to do or where you're going to go. The horse should respectfully WAIT for direction from the rider...not decide things on it's own. Horses THINKING is GREAT....horses making the decisions is NOT.

[Bluey]

Observer, I wonder what your connection to CA may be?
You seem to post like an infomercial for him and that seems a little bit out of place.
Most here have their opinions, but generally don't post them as glowing endorsements.;)

Just curious.:)

[Observer123]

As for the comments by Auventera Two...

I've watched many of CA's trailer loading demonstrations...and it never took him more than 15 minutes total...usually less. I don't really call that working the horse to death. I've never seen one horse become DULL as a result. They might become tired depending on how long they choose to resist...but that usually only happens the first time. After that...things go much quicker and smoother and the horse doesn't resist long enough to get that tired. Once horses realize there is nothing to fear...they will start to become RELAXED...stand quietly and patiently. That doesn't mean they are DULL. Relaxed is a good thing. No one, including Clinton ever said his methods are the ONLY way. He's always the first to say....use your imagination and do what works. But BABY-ING horses to get them to respond or to coddle them out of being afraid of something...well good luck with that.

If a group of horses roaming free came to river and most of the horses plunged right in and crossed the river...do you think some of the horses hang around on the other side of the river and coddle those who are afraid to cross the river? Whinny sweetly to them...tell them...it's okay...nothing to fear? NO. The fearful horses get left behind if they don't get with the program. I guess it's the horse version of tough love....but horses understand that...they don't understand baby-ing and coddling. If you "pet" a horse while it's fearful...in the horse's mind you are rewarding the fearful behavior...telling them "good job" for being afraid.

It's called Longing for RESPECT...not Longing to make the horse tired or Longing to get the buck out or for exercise. You apparently missed the point that the frequent changes of direction while longeing or round penning teaches the horse to pay attention to YOU...not let it's attention wander off while it goes around in endless boring circles. Attention equals respect. Lack of attention on YOU equals lack of respect. The Longeing and round penning for respect sets the foundation for the horse that in ALL training...it's THEIR JOB to pay attention to YOU. That eventually carries directly over to paying attention to YOUR cues and directions under saddle. We cannot teach a child or a horse anything if they are not completely focused on the teacher.

Horses can only really focus on one thing at a time...so if we have taught them to get their attention immediately on US when there is a problem...such as spooking...then we can ask the horse to do some "work" for us instead of the horse worrying about whatever it is that's spooking it. Pretty soon, they figure out that what they were spooking at is not a threat. That just might save your life one day if you are riding a horse that spooks terribly at something. Or how would YOU handle that...AVOID the spooky object most likely. Or "pet" him and tell him good boy to be scared?

When the horse is made to "move it's feet" as in "work," as a CONSEQUENCE for being disrespectful...it's based on the psychology of herd behavior. How many times have I seen people with a really unruly horse...and they just whack it if it misbehaves? Or jerk on the chain over it's nose? Or snatch on the reins for serious misbehavor under saddle? Making a horse move it's feet, back up, get out of your space, etc. is a correction that horses use with each other and that they understand. When we treat a horse like another horse would...they understand that "language." A bit of work is much better than whacking, yanking and snatching.

I'd love to see somone like you work with a seriously aggressive unbroke horse...and I don't mean a wild horse...they aren't aggressive...they're too fearful. I'm talking about an aggressive stallion who has been allowed to push all humans around for years...and who seriously TRIES to hurt people. These methods might be no big deal for your average backyard horse that never really gets out of hand. But I've seen the amazing transformation in all different personalities of horses. When it's done CORRECTLY...you have a bright, happy horse, with a good attitude who respects you, LIKES being with you...that bonds with you.

It is a fact that Clinton does NOT BABY horses that are disrespectful or aggressive...or even fearful. He doesn't sneak tentatively around frightened horses with scary objects, etc. He's not one of the "cookie treat" crowd...but then I've never seen any serious horse trainer who is. There are different forms of PRESSURE...and all of use one form or another...even if it's just the squeeze of our leg, a pull on the reins or a tap of a crop. We stop squeezing, pulling or tapping when we get the desired result. Making a horse move it's feet or "work" is just a form of pressure...that we release when we get the correct response. But it's a form of pressure that horses instinctively understand. I've ALWAYS seen Clinton tell us...REWARD the slightest TRY.

Any slightest attempt made by the horse to give us the response we want...is to be immediately rewarded by release of whatever pressure we were using...be it reins, legs, crop, or making them move their feet. It's unfortunate that just attending a tour stop or watching a 1/2 hour on RFD TV is not enough to for some to fully comprehend the full depth of the program. But if you ever had a seriously bad horse and saw the transformation this process brings about...you'd have a lot more appreciation and respect for it.

[chaltagor]

You apparently missed the point that the frequent changes of direction while longeing or round penning teaches the horse to pay attention to YOU...not let it's attention wander off while it goes around in endless boring circles. Attention equals respect. Lack of attention on YOU equals lack of respect. The Longeing and round penning for respect sets the foundation for the horse that in ALL training...it's THEIR JOB to pay attention to YOU. That eventually carries directly over to paying attention to YOUR cues and directions under saddle. We cannot teach a child or a horse anything if they are not completely focused on the teacher.

CA lunges children too? This I gotta see.

[Observer123]

Bluey...

No connection to CA whatsoever....my enthusiasm come from hands on EXPERIENCE with actually USING the program with many horses...and the thrill of seeing the great results it produces...on all different types of horses and their particular problems.

I was told about him by a friend who was watching me struggle with trying to train a very aggressive stallion. I poo-poo'd a "video" horse trainer as ridiculous. She gave me a tape and told me just watch that one tape. I immediately called my friend and yelled at her becuse she KNEW I was struggling with this stallion and she had this tape and didn't give it to me sooner.

I got complete respect from that horse within 2 weeks....and the thrill of watching him run across the pasture just at the sight of my CAR coming. It was a total transformation in this horse. He greeted me like my dog does. He was happy and bright. Instead of charging aggressively at people, he became a joy to be around. Brave and willing and calm and good natured. That horse was in danger of a very uncertain future before. His novice owner could NOT deal with him. The other boarders at the barn feared him and were afraid to go out to get their horses when he was out. He would reach out and snap at people like an angry dog. If nothing else...his transformation as a result of these methods is what sold me. And I believe they saved HIM from a bleak future.

Since then...I do the same thing with every horse I work with...and it doesn't matter what their "issues" are...it fixes them. I brought one foal along entirely on the program from the age of 3 months up to showing her under saddle. She never developed any negative behaviors that most young horses will. Judge after Judge made special comments to me because she was so amazingly well behaved for her age. Same situation with a terrified OTTB. He's now calm and relaxed and no one would ever know that he use to be so afraid of everything that he was unpredictable and dangerous. He's had some of the more advanced training and is doing great. The owner's 10 year old daughter rides him now.

You might not notice the dramatic results on an average horse without too many problems. There's still an improvement...but it's easier to see when you start with really tough cases and watch the transformation.

By the way...I also really like Chris Cox, Stacey Westfall and several others. I don't disagree with any of their methods. It's just become kind of funny to watch how each clinician has to set himself apart...or else they would all be doing exactly the same thing. So what I see is the "little" differences that each one uses to set themselves apart from the others. Most of their methods are all basically the same....the specific exercises are a little different...but it's all about the SAME results.

[Ponypoor]

I would like to say that Mr. CA's loading trouble horses is not all that truthful when it comes out on video or pay per view. My friend was invited to bring her problem loading mare to his clinic to be an example. It took him two hours to load said mare but when he released his pay per view program it was reduced to 15 minutes. Now, bear with me, I know one must take creative license with what one must, but he never let on to the paying groupees that it took two hours. Also, FYI, when she tried to take the mare home she wouldn't load. It took a new group of people and an alley way to encourage the mare onto the trailer. She has since had the local level headed horse people help to solve the mare's loading issues. I have no problem with horse trainers making it big time but let's be honest and admit when they fail. They don't have 100 percent rate of problem solving and a one day fix is like putting a band-aid on a gaping chest wound. What I think would be great is if he went back and did a follow-up on his exhibit horses to see where they are today. Does anyone know where he might have set up a suggestion box?

[Bluey]

Bluey...

No connection to CA whatsoever....my enthusiasm come from hands on EXPERIENCE with actually USING the program with many horses...and the thrill of seeing the great results it produces...on all different types of horses and their particular problems.

I was told about him by a friend who was watching me struggle with trying to train a very aggressive stallion. I poo-poo'd a "video" horse trainer as ridiculous. She gave me a tape and told me just watch that one tape. I immediately called my friend and yelled at her becuse she KNEW I was struggling with this stallion and she had this tape and didn't give it to me sooner.

I got complete respect from that horse within 2 weeks....and the thrill of watching him run across the pasture just at the sight of my CAR coming. It was a total transformation in this horse. He greeted me like my dog does. He was happy and bright. Instead of charging aggressively at people, he became a joy to be around. Brave and willing and calm and good natured. That horse was in danger of a very uncertain future before. His novice owner could NOT deal with him. The other boarders at the barn feared him and were afraid to go out to get their horses when he was out. He would reach out and snap at people like an angry dog. If nothing else...his transformation as a result of these methods is what sold me. And I believe they saved HIM from a bleak future.

Since then...I do the same thing with every horse I work with...and it doesn't matter what their "issues" are...it fixes them. I brought one foal along entirely on the program from the age of 3 months up to showing her under saddle. She never developed any negative behaviors that most young horses will. Judge after Judge made special comments to me because she was so amazingly well behaved for her age. Same situation with a terrified OTTB. He's now calm and relaxed and no one would ever know that he use to be so afraid of everything that he was unpredictable and dangerous. He's had some of the more advanced training and is doing great. The owner's 10 year old daughter rides him now.

You might not notice the dramatic results on an average horse without too many problems. There's still an improvement...but it's easier to see when you start with really tough cases and watch the transformation.

By the way...I also really like Chris Cox, Stacey Westfall and several others. I don't disagree with any of their methods. It's just become kind of funny to watch how each clinician has to set himself apart...or else they would all be doing exactly the same thing. So what I see is the "little" differences that each one uses to set themselves apart from the others. Most of their methods are all basically the same....the specific exercises are a little different...but it's all about the SAME results.

I see, you had some basic horsemanship education, but didn't know how to handle some horses that gave you a hard time and CA program was one that you learned what you didn't know from.
That is good, we can learn something from anyone.

Thank you for putting those experiences in perspective for us.:)

[MistyBlue]

City Ponies...it's just never a good idea to attend any clinic, show or anything like that with the purpose of trying to poach new clients for yourself. No matter if the trainer is good or not, poaching is wrong and *extremely* immature and unprofessional. :no:

If you're trying to build a rep as an area trainer, this isn't the rep you want.

[katarine]

I've ALWAYS seen Clinton tell us...REWARD the slightest TRY.

Would you kindly explain how he managed to create a burned out monster out of an UNSTARTED baby in less than 2 days at Road to the Horse in 2007, I think it was? He drew a baby he immediately described- due to its small stature and willing, kind, trying to please nature-as a future lovely child's or ladies horse. He proceeded to pile on splint boots with floppy stuff hanging off, pool noodles, air horns, stock whips, pistols loaded with blanks, etc etc etc ...nothing was enough.. The colt got NO relief. Eventually the colt's good natural nature wore off, he got fidgety, he got wiggly, so he got put to work, work, work. At some point, CA turned his back to go get something. That baby CAME AFTER HIM! Teeth bared, mouth wide open. Murderous. The gasp of the crowd got his attn, he spun, and caught that baby across the chest with a dressage whip. The colt's ears spun in total confusion. I'm a tough old bitch and I nearly wept. I went to the ladies room, where a brawl nearly ensued: The real horse women of the crowd ready to burn him at the stake, his minions pleading, can't we all just get along?

NO.

He's a pencil-dicked, puny, blowhard BULLY.

So, tell me how you explain him rewarding the slightest try, piling noisy, silly, showy chit on a BABY to show off for the crowd? Then epically failing to OWN his overconfidence? Dude you already lost, explain how you went too far, misjudged. Failure to own your mistakes? Priceless.

Chris Cox rocks- he's a bit of a turd one on one, maybe it's the stutter. But he's a HORSEMAN. Clinton is a wanna be, and Parelli, a marketing genius. Van Hargis got confused all on his own at RTTH, utterly in over his head. Stacey Westfall, good girl, great trainer, not worried about her ego, she's in it for the horse. Clinton's in it for photo ops.

[MistyBlue]

Someone had to say it, Katarine. :yes:
Good job.
And apt description. :D

[Coreene]

Katarine, you go sister!

[sahqueen]

I had a horse accepted into a Clinton Anderson clinic at Equine Affaire several years ago. In dealing with his "people", I decided to pull the horse from the clinic. They/He were totally unwilling to listen to any concerns I had, or fully answer any questions that I asked. I was flat out told that I was to hand over the horse, and 90 minutes later they would hand him back...umm, don't think so.

My main concern was that this particular horse was extremely cinchy and cold backed, and that since saddle fit was important to this horse I requested that they try the saddle on him in the barn prior to the clinic, so that we could deal with any issues ahead of time, change saddle pads, etc. I was told that was not an option...If I didn't like the horse so much it would have been a great show if the saddle didn't fit. It would have been fun to see him get yard darted in front of a thousand people!

It all worked out for the best, as when I watched a few minutes of that particular clinic, and saw him 'demonstrating' (repeatedly) how to hit the horse in the face with his handy whacker stick, if it had been my horse that stick would have ended up someplace that the sun doesn't shine and I would have had to be bailed out of jail.

More recently I had the chance to ride in a clinic with Chris Cox...that experience was a great one, and so many of his ideas can be used in the show ring, unlike many of the rope halter and waving stick crowd.

[katarine]

I hated it. I hated SEEING it. That was our second and last RTTH. The first, Stacey won. It was a great thing to watch her win, she earned it honest and unexpected. The one CA blew, Chris won, and I didn't have a 'fave'- but Chris took ample breaks. Looked annoyed at CA's grandstanding. Honestly he was ready to take his horse outside, get out of that pen. He earned it. CA- he was dead to me from that moment on.

I'm not 100% black and white on much. But I wouldn't send a toad frog to CA. I like toad frogs.

[Observer123]

Interesting thoughts from everyone. I have seen many of the clinicians work, and I am pretty certain that any of the programs of any of the clinicians work equally well at getting the same end result. My comments weren't about CA the PERSON...they were about my personal experience at working his program and getting great results every time. I'm sure if I had heard of Chris Cox first...his program would work equally well and get the same good results. I think I would go with the Stacey Westfall program first though. My initial comments were directed to someone who specifically asked about what she could expect from a CA tour stop. I responded to her post with my personal experiences at actually working the CA program because I know that the limited amount of time at the tour stop does not begin to show you what the full program is about. As I was reading some of the other comments...I observed that not one of those who posted negative comments has had any actual experience USING the full program themselves on an actual horse. I was just speaking as someone who has...and on numerous horses.

From personal experience...I am certain that if it's done exactly as instructed...the CA method is very effective and gets great results. Doesn't mean that Chris Cox or John Lyons or anyone else's program is less effective. I didn't criticize anyone's program or methods...I simply stated that I have actually USED the entire CA program and it was VERY effective from my personal experiences.

The truth is, I haven't seen a great deal of difference in the primary methods of most of the top clinicians. Even some of the lesser know clinicians that I've seen at Expo's are doing almost the same thing with some very minor differences. I believe those small differences are incorporated so that no clinician is copying the EXACT program of another. But if you take out all the small differences...the rest of it is pretty much the same or VERY similar.

[Bluey]

More than half a centry ago, my first riding instructor, a retired military officer, that never talked much, told me that one measure of a good horseman is that the horses work smoothly, don't throw their heads around every time someone moves or raises a hand, or run back if someone gets in a hurry, just plain a horse that OVERREACT to handling.

I have tried to be that kind of horseman, I have looked up to those that, to me, are the real horse whisperers, those that don't have to get wild with their horses and if they have an overreactive horse, they can calm it.
Many studies have shown that all animals, people and horses included, learn and cooperate best when there is no stress involved.

To me, any kind of training COULD be about smooth communicating, if the person on the other end of the round pen, leadrope, whip/stick, reins or their behind on the horse can work with that horse without the horse resisting and acting up regularly.

Going by that standard, so many of today's clinicians come short, especially CA and PP.
Understandably, as good horse training can look to the uninitiated like watching paing dry, there is not much wild action going on.

I had the temerity to bring this up with the PP group a few times and was, I think, laughed at.:rolleyes:

Saying this, I think that we can learn from anyone, no matter what they do, some we will find interesting, some we will filter thru what we know and ignore.

If I was the OP, I would still go, especially since the OP seems to be a young person, still in need of more experience around horses and in that situation, you really just can't see and experience enough, even if you may think you don't care about the trainer giving the clinic.

An attitude of not caring to learn more if we were not directly working in any one horse field was not acceptable when I was learning about horses.
Even today I will go to watch anyone that cares to come here to teach, did get to watch PP several times and CA once.

For those really interested for horses I knew, our passion about horses transcended that, we wanted horses so bad we would go anywhere to see and learn more, good, bad or indifferent, that could be determined later.

Go and make this a learning experience for you, that is what horses are all about.:yes:

[S1969]

I saw CA at Equine Affaire in MA last year; I thought he was doing a clinic but in the end I'm not sure. Watched the first 30 minutes or so and it was sort of a demonstration of all the things his horse could do. Maybe it was a show and not a clinic. Anyway, after watching him for a while [and thinking, well...you *are* a professional trainer, I'd expect YOUR horse to be awesome]...we left to watch someone else. I'm not sure if he ever got around to teaching anything.

We then saw Julie Goodnight and she was great.

It's hard to say whether you should go or not; definitely wouldn't go and try to recruit clients [rude behavior at the least]. There were a lot of CA fans there who were happy to just watch him ride.

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=katarine;4396375

NO.

He's a pencil-dicked, puny, blowhard BULLY.

with a velvet rope and a fan club ;)

and I was at the same event...too bad the filly did'nt grab his ear and hold on

best

[City Ponies]

JaneDoe - I understand where you're coming from. I don't believe I need to edit my posts, feel free to disagree, but as I was discussing with Red Fox earlier, I'm strongly convicted in my methods of working horses. I am just one of those stubborn personalities. If you don't like my attitude don't give me business, but don't judge my ability by personality, judge by results. I understand 99% go by first impressions, and that's fine. But I'd rather have clients that trust me 100% than second guess my approaches. And I've said, I am always willing to learn new techniques if they will help out the greater cause. I am going to this clinic with an open-mind. And I hope you can understand that as this thread has progressed I've definately become more in the mindset of "just see what it's all about", yes I've been defensive on a few threads in my COTH past, normally situations that I feel strongly about or having really bad days and just not in my normal patience mode :)

MistyBlue - I'm not trying to poach clients or steal them from CA. Let's face facts, that's kind of a silly statement b/c it's not like they are doing weekly lessons from him. I'm trying to get my name out as an option for those who are seeking more hands-on help than they can't get from clinics and DVD's. Going to the clinic will give me the opportunity to learn how the NH fans work with their horses, so if I am ever able to be given the chance to work with some, I can figure out what aides are being used how from the start :)

Bluey - You're right.. you can never get enough experience!!! I've learned that even in some of the crappiest situations, you end up walking away knowing something new, if it's what not to do!

katarine - ya know, since we're not squabbling about halters and bit ;) .. it's nice to see your full view of the clinic.. and I appreciate your insight.

Let me ask all of you that went and said it was horrible.... beyond the excessive nature, was there anything you could apply if it was simplified??

[trubandloki]

MistyBlue - I'm not trying to poach clients or steal them from CA. Let's face facts, that's kind of a silly statement b/c it's not like they are doing weekly lessons from him. I'm trying to get my name out as an option for those who are seeking more hands-on help than they can't get from clinics and DVD's. Going to the clinic will give me the opportunity to learn how the NH fans work with their horses, so if I am ever able to be given the chance to work with some, I can figure out what aides are being used how from the start :)



You say yourself you are going to try to get clients. I think you mentioned something about showing those that roll their eyes how much better your GM way is.

People who like CA (or any of the NH gurus) are going to want hands on help with another NH follower. Not someone who is going to insist they follow a different route.

[katarine]

Let me ask all of you that went and said it was horrible.... beyond the excessive nature, was there anything you could apply if it was simplified??

What you just don't gather is this: all the NH crowd are doing variations on a theme. It is apparent you have not seen any of them work a horse. Your questions make that clear. So go and watch and watch several of them. Read the Tom Dorrance Book. Read the Ray Hunt Books. GET A CLUE, get a base. then grow. If you can be bothered. Seriously, I don't hear it in you, that you can, because you already, have it all figured out.

And you want 100% submission to your way, no questions asked by your paying clients? LOL good luck with that. With that attitude, it's sure to a be a lonely and frustrating 'they just don't get it' sort of path for you.


I'm out, I don't see the point in banging this drum any more.

[mp]

It all worked out for the best, as when I watched a few minutes of that particular clinic, and saw him 'demonstrating' (repeatedly) how to hit the horse in the face with his handy whacker stick, if it had been my horse that stick would have ended up someplace that the sun doesn't shine and I would have had to be bailed out of jail.

That's what I've seen on this RFD show, and I was ready to throw a brick at my TV. If I'd seen it in person, much less doing it to MY horse, I don't know what I would have done.

I'm sorry the colt in RTTH was manhandled by that grandstanding butthead, katarine. But your description of CA's anatomy made me laugh out loud. I can only imagine the earful you gave the CA groupies in ladies'.

[katarine]

That's what I've seen on this RFD show, and I was ready to throw a brick at my TV. If I'd seen it in person, much less doing it to MY horse, I don't know what I would have done.

I'm sorry the colt in RTTH was manhandled by that grandstanding butthead, katarine. But your description of CA's anatomy made me laugh out loud. I can only imagine the earful you gave the CA groupies in ladies'.

LOL I was there with just Drake so I was solo in my trip to the loo. I was washing my hands and in comes this woman on a mission- she'd just lit into Tootie Bland (the organizer ) that if CA EVER set foot at RTTH again, she'd NEVER be back (from her look and demeanor, she was a Big Wig Of Some Import) etc etc- she was cranked up and filling in her friend on the details. Several of us mumbled our support, hear hear and the like, when a few of his minions eeked out a slight protest, one looked at me and said 'we all need to respect each other, even if we don't like each other'- I asked HOW exactly he respected that filly and her efforts? EXACTLY how had he rewarded and respected HER? I didn't GET IT so may be, just maybe, you can explain it to me????' I got a little country on her, and she bolted :) The whole scene was just hysterical, too bad we didn't get into a fisticuffs, might have gotten him some bad press in the end LOL!

[City Ponies]

What you just don't gather is this: all the NH crowd are doing variations on a theme. It is apparent you have not seen any of them work a horse. Your questions make that clear. So go and watch and watch several of them. Read the Tom Dorrance Book. Read the Ray Hunt Books. GET A CLUE, get a base. then grow. If you can be bothered. Seriously, I don't hear it in you, that you can, because you already, have it all figured out.

And you want 100% submission to your way, no questions asked by your paying clients? LOL good luck with that. With that attitude, it's sure to a be a lonely and frustrating 'they just don't get it' sort of path for you.


I'm out, I don't see the point in banging this drum any more.

I have seen NH at work, and DO apply some of it myself, I have never seen CA live and only clips of what he's done on RFDTV. I've read his book, I admit it's been a while but I do still have it somewhere and might have to go digging soon. I DON'T know his techniques from start to finish, I know and apply basic forms of pressure/release. I have seen PP live, and there are a few ladies who do that work with their horses a lot, I watch from time to time. I'm not clueless on NH, I'm not gung-ho about it, but I don't resist it either. I think you have made assumptions about me, the way you think I've made assumptions about NH.

And, this goes without saying, one can make judgement very easily from opinions over a BB - just as I could about CA, PP, heck Anky list goes on.. - but I do try to keep an open mind. Katarine - I do think you have a wealth of knowledge about many subjects, esp this, as your post earlier to Observer implied, but your snarky attitude toward me, when I am clearly asking open question to better be prepared for this clinic is not allowing discussion between us, just critisizing my character.

[cutemudhorse]

Katarine ----

You are so right!

Chris was better one on one in years past. Now I think he's over the stutter. . . :) Don't think the two are connected, he's just sometimes shy and awkward and comes off well, awkward. . . but a really nice guy. Definately a horseman.


Chris Cox rocks!

[City Ponies]

You say yourself you are going to try to get clients. I think you mentioned something about showing those that roll their eyes how much better your GM way is.

People who like CA (or any of the NH gurus) are going to want hands on help with another NH follower. Not someone who is going to insist they follow a different route.

Again- I'm going to try to make this clearer, I don't want to go back and edit my original posts because then it takes the whole excitement out of this almost trainwrecked thread :lol:

I HAVE changed my opinion on my attitude on going to this clinic, BECAUSE of posts that have responded to mine. I've said I'm not Anti-NH, I use some Lyons' methods, some general methods (and I will have to find some CC in my area apparently!). I am not trying to insist they use a different method, I'm going to explain what I teach, they are completely free to walk away if they don't like it. All 3 of my clients now approached me because I explained what I believed in to someone else (who then told them), all very happy with their results, and all are free to walk away or not listen if they don't like it. I'm not a grumpy or cold hearted person!! I swear:yes:

[katarine]

good luck to you in all you do, city.

[tkhawk]

I don't know how young you are, but maybe you just need a little finessee? Everybody -well except the top level maybe- poaches customers etc. Yes it is horse training, but if you are a trainer, you are running a business. A business person, part of your job is making enough money to feed your self, family, pay the mortgage, save for a rainy day, look after the horses. Unless of course you are doing it as a hobby and just enjoy doing it .

Identify your market . There is a crowd for the PP et al -we can blame PP etc, but he is just filling a niche and making millions of dollars doing it. It probably doesn't serve the horse or a person-neither does tobacco- but we all have free choice. Now if you are running a business, yes part of it is horses, but you also need clients. In the horse world there is a an extremely limited supply -unless of course you are at the top of the game. But in this economy, it is tough. Any client you get, is a client that is not going to your next door neighbour or the trainer down the road. So you have to be prepared for backbiting etc. etc. It would help if you figure out who you wan't to attract.

You maybe a GM follower, but there maybe quite a few folks in a clinic like the one you are going to, who have never heard of GM. That is ok. When I started, I was new to horses and didn't know anybody or any riding style. Luckily I lived right next to a very famous trainer-but I never heard of her before-just got the name off a phone book and by calculating the distance from my house!:lol: I had to take lessons with her assistants for years before I got to a level where the instructor would teach me. In today's world , there are plenty of adult riders who are starting out new-at least where I live.

There are subtle differences one needs to observe. Many of these folks who come/put on these clinics are ultimately looking for new clients or at least to sell their merchandise. Nobody is doing it for free. So maybe your intention is to appeal to wider audience . But those folks have a lot of exposure , they are on TV and may target a market that isn't necessarily world class riders. But that is an interesting business model. You have to figure out what you have to offer, who you wan't to target and ultimately do you enjoy it. Trust me talking BS to a bunch of folks just for a few $$$ and doing it day in and day out is much, much tougher than you think!:winkgrin:

[City Ponies]

tkhawk - thank you for the post! I'm sort of in the transitional stage between hobby and full-time profession (which I did do for 3 years prior to going back to college). I quit my full-time real job 8 weeks ago when I took on these 3 clients - ironically enough my former job has declared bankruptcy and will close this weekend, so I guess good heads up on my part! LOL. I've got enough saved to get by through winter with who I'm training now. But want to be prepared to pick this up full time next spring so I will be "rolling" when I graduate May 10'. And yes, one of my clients didn't know who GM was LOL. I really like your approach and will really sit on that and muster it around for the next 2 weeks or so til the clinic.

[foundationmare]

Katarine, you're the woman I'd like to become! If you ever want to teach some clinics for "getting country", please post it here! Great, great posts, those.

What I know about NH in it's various forms I've learned on this BB. And I don't much like what I've gleaned because it seems to involve lots of ego (as indicated by this particular thread), intimidation, fear and inducing exhaustion. Eventually, the horse will be beaten down and submit. And that is a horse that I wouldn't want to have. It all just seems so cruel to me, and pointless.

Can a horse really learn to trust a person who has, in my opinion, tormented them into acquiescence? When there is no trust, I can't see how true learning and growth can follow.

[Bluey]

tkhawk - thank you for the post! I'm sort of in the transitional stage between hobby and full-time profession (which I did do for 3 years prior to going back to college). I quit my full-time real job 8 weeks ago when I took on these 3 clients - ironically enough my former job has declared bankruptcy and will close this weekend, so I guess good heads up on my part! LOL. I've got enough saved to get by through winter with who I'm training now. But want to be prepared to pick this up full time next spring so I will be "rolling" when I graduate May 10'. And yes, one of my clients didn't know who GM was LOL. I really like your approach and will really sit on that and muster it around for the next 2 weeks or so til the clinic.

Sounds like you are in your twenties.
If you really want to become some day a top trainer, the ones I have seen have all worked under a top trainer for many years, ten or more, some times more than one trainer, made contacts at the top of the horse industry and when they went on their own, with the blessing of the top trainer, they already had their own following and really, really had the experience under their belt you can only get at a top stable training and riding top horses.

Now, not all can go there, but if I was a young trainer starting, I would go learn more for a few years and then I would know more where I really want to go.

I did that, had a riding school in my early twenties, did extremely good with it, but quickly learned that I needed to be learning more, if I wanted to become a better trainer and rider and quit and went on to work for BNT's.
Worked great for me.:)

[katarine]

Katarine, you're the woman I'd like to become! If you ever want to teach some clinics for "getting country", please post it here! Great, great posts, those.

What I know about NH in it's various forms I've learned on this BB. And I don't much like what I've gleaned because it seems to involve lots of ego (as indicated by this particular thread), intimidation, fear and inducing exhaustion. Eventually, the horse will be beaten down and submit. And that is a horse that I wouldn't want to have. It all just seems so cruel to me, and pointless.

Can a horse really learn to trust a person who has, in my opinion, tormented them into acquiescence? When there is no trust, I can't see how true learning and growth can follow.


Well, first off, thanks, and second, you're right and you're wrong. Clinton wants absolute submisson, IMO. Reiners want that, too, so he's in the right spot, he likes to show reiners so there you go. Cutters want 'em broke but gritty and thinking...so Chris Cox is in the right spot, too. He leans more toward cutting, using horses.

For a good snapspot view of 'NH', you need to watch Road to the Horse, 2007. Maybe someone here has the DVDs, and could loan it to you. Chris Cox won it, hands down. Example, they were required to take one 10 minute break and leave the round pen, inside a 3 hr window, I think. Chris took much more time off than that. At some point, the announcer asked are you taking your 10 minute break? Chris replied I'm done for this session....so ok, sure.....so the horse got a good 20-25 minute break. that was classy. He was at ease letting that horse air up, rest, and gain confidence. Hard to do when 5000 eyes are studying you, lol. the horse was fresh, and he was fine with that.

If Clinton HAD better timing, COULD reward the slightest try, he'd be good. he has decent timing, but a bully's heart. he wants them on their knees, mentally, and NOW. I find it distasteful.

Search youtube for Jon Ensign- he's the real deal NH. Maybe that alone would help you see NH done well. We've lost the Dorrances and Ray Hunt- if you can look into them, their books, you'll see that old school NH, is far from what CA promotes.

[foundationmare]

Should have been more specific in keeping it related to CA.

[tbtrailrider]

Auventura - Do you think that looking beyond the wearing the horse down, he has any techniques one could apply to a willing, happy, balanced horse? Say, using it in 5 minutes instead of working for 45 mins on?

Not Auventura but I have had some experience riding horses that were started using CA methods. Very annoying to ride. Mainly because at the slightest pressure on the rein, they rubbernecked their head around to my foot. One had to use an outside leg with an inside rein to steer them without rubbernecking. They have no impulsion at all,no go.

[Sithly]

What I know about NH in it's various forms I've learned on this BB. And I don't much like what I've gleaned because it seems to involve lots of ego (as indicated by this particular thread), intimidation, fear and inducing exhaustion. Eventually, the horse will be beaten down and submit. And that is a horse that I wouldn't want to have. It all just seems so cruel to me, and pointless.

Well, that'd be your problem right there. Think you'd learn much about dressage on the Parelli board, where dressage is villified?

NH in its various forms is completely and utterly neutral, like any other training method. And like any other training method, you take what you like out of it, apply it with a little common sense, and you'll end up with a pretty darn nice horse by anyone's standards.

But I have to say, if you think NH is about ego, exhaustion, intimidation, and fear, then you probably haven't studied a good NH trainer (and by "good," I do not necessarily mean "famous"). In my experience -- and that would be actual hands-on experience, not reading -- NH is pretty much the opposite of what you described.

FWIW.

[Bluey]

Not Auventura but I have had some experience riding horses that were started using CA methods. Very annoying to ride. Mainly because at the slightest pressure on the rein, they rubbernecked their head around to my foot. One had to use an outside leg with an inside rein to steer them without rubbernecking. They have no impulsion at all,no go.

Exactly.
Rubbernecked horses are the bane of all that bending and flexing, be it in any English or western discipline.

A top trainer, that has developed excellent timing and has a very strong, active seat and leg aids can use those and still get a horse forward when it needs to.
Most everyone else that tried those methods end up with a stalled, parked horse that won't go straight and is hard to do much with.

We had some to retrain and in a few days they were going properly, but as soon as someone less experienced got on, those horses reverted to their old, easier ways of passive resistence.

Some 40 years ago I learned that getting a horse so overflexed was a terrible mistake, caused many more problems that it ever solved.
Today that is the way many ride, as they are afraid of the feel of a really forward horse.

How come that kind of overbent overflexing works for CA and others?
Because they keep the horse scooting under them with other forceful aids.
Like riding the brakes and gas pedal at the same time.
Not many can ride like that and I think it is hard for most horses to be ridden like that.

I guess everyone will ride up to the level they want to pursue, but if someone is in any discipline that demands a horse moves on and wants to attain proficiency at it, I would go easy on that overbending.

There is also the question of safety, if your horse bolts before you realize it is going to and you pick up a rein for a one rein stop and the horse obliges, you forget to use your legs and the horse tries to turn and you both go tumbling down.
That I hear is happening more and more, as more people and horses are taught that, causing some wrecks.

Some of those clinicians today are easing off on that one rein stop and others are starting to warn against it and go easier on the overflexing, also demanding forward first.
CA also does that, anyone with any sense, that understand horses, knows that a horse has to move on when asked, that is the first resistence a beginner lets a horse learn, starting so many bad habits.
The trouble is that most riders learning those techniques are scared of a forward moving horse and so spend longer bending a horse for their imagined safety in that.

[monstrpony]

There is also the question of safety, if your horse bolts before you realize it is going to and you pick up a rein for a one rein stop and the horse obliges, you forget to use your legs and the horse tries to turn and you both go tumbling down.

Isn't this just the age-old issue of riding front-to-back? A proper one rein stop should start with an aid to disengage the haunches; it is more than merely pulling the horse's head around.

The trouble is that most riders learning those techniques are scared of a forward moving horse and so spend longer bending a horse for their imagined safety in that.

Ditto.

[Bluey]

Isn't this just the age-old issue of riding front-to-back? A proper one rein stop should start with an aid to disengage the haunches; it is more than merely pulling the horse's head around.



Ditto.

In traditional training, we didn't believed in disengaging, in fact, I was chastised for teaching a horse the spanish walk, a definitly disengaging way of moving.
We didn't want a horse to learn any resistences, disengaging was a possible one, so we didn't go there.

The turn on the forehand could be said to have looked like one, but it is not, since it is done with control all around, not the horse scooting away from whatever aid is used, but to ask him to move over in a steady way and just so much, a big difference.

I am not saying the purist were right, horses are more resilient that we give them credit for some times, but all those concerns are part of the discussion.

Personally, I think that one rein stops are like the crest release, techniques that in reality are more harmful in the long run than learning to ride better before putting a student in a position to need a crutch type technique with many pitfalls to get by, or worse, overused them as we have seen with some of those.

[monstrpony]

The turn on the forehand could be said to have looked like one, but it is not, since it is done with control all around, not the horse scooting away from whatever aid is used, but to ask him to move over in a steady way and just so much, a big difference.

Agree with this, and actually prefer to speak of drifting the haunches, a kind of TOF in motion (to preserve fwd). It must be at the rider's discretion and control, not a mindless over-reaction to an applied leg. In a "panic" situation, the ability to move the haunches in a controlled way is used to disengage the fwd part of the bolt--the only time one might want to disengage the motor.

In any event, if it is misunderstood to be merely bending the head and neck (or yanking the head around) then a wreck is inevitable.

[Auventera Two]

I've ridden one of those NH rubber neck horses and I despise it. The trainer has worked that horse for 2 years on teaching him to fold his neck in half and lay his head on your lap any time you put any pressure on the rein at all. The horse's nose is constantly behind the vertical, there is no connection or contact at all. It's very scary because it feels like there's just nothing there in your hand. The horse tries desperately to avoid all contact on the bit. It takes 25 strides to get the horse to halt from a walk. Double that if you want to slow from a canter to a walk. It's because the horse was never taught correct contact. He was only taught to fold up his neck behind the contact.

[City Ponies]

Yuck, I guess I can say I can appreciate that I've never been on a rubbernecked horse.

Bluey - I agree, I wish I could work under someone. Unfortunately $ and life does not allow for that. I go to school full-time for the next year, to graduate with a degree I won't use, I also live alone (so add the bills that most of you have) + 2 horses. I'm lucky right now with 2 horses in full-training and 3 lesson students, that just skim by on bills, and help out at the barn to help my boarding costs. Time constraints just to live don't allow the dedication it would be to work for someone else and survive.

[Observer123]

Bluey,

I appreciate your thoughtful posts. And I agree...we can learn something from anyone. All of the things you mentioned in your post are what all horse people are looking for in their horses. For those of us who show, we need even more than those basics for show horses. But most horses don't automatically come that way. There is lot of training that goes into getting to that point. Prior to training, almost all horses will do those things...throw their heads around....resist in all sorts of ways. It's just a fact that not every horse is going to start it's training by being sweet and cooperative about it. Some will be just plain aggressive. Some are sensitive and fearful and there's every type in between. It's necessary to work according to the nature of each horse. That will determine the degree of pressure each individual needs in the training process.

Nothing will accomplished in the early stages of training with a truly aggressive horse...except the human getting hurt...if we don't FIRST establish strong BOUNDARIES and a strong leadership position that the horse respects. If we back off from a dominant or aggressive horse....in the horse's mind....he's established that HE/SHE is the leader, not us. That's how horses think...it's instinctive herd behavior. An aggressive horse will continue to to be pushy and try to dominate us as they would other horses in a herd, until a trainer comes along who establishes themselves as the leader.

How do we do that? Most experienced horsemen look to methods that simulate how horses in the herd (naturally) establish themselves as the leader. This is the basis of what has been "marketed" as "Natural Horsemanship" methods. It's NOT about a particular "stick" or rope halter. Those are just TOOLS that make it easier to do the exercises that simulate the natural behaviors horses use to establish leadership in herd. You can use ANY halter, leadrope and a dressage whip if you choose. But it might be much easier and take less time with those specially designed tools.

On the other end of the scale is the overly reactive, timid or fearful horse. The goal with them is to gain their TRUST first, so they can relax and not be stressed; then they can pay attention and learn. The same exact exercises can used to accomplish that; the difference being in the degree of pressure and the timing of pressure and release.

It's explained as "Draw" and "Drive." An aggressive horse is in your face...in your space...tries to dominate you. We have to use more "Drive" with them. Like the leader in a herd...we drive them out of our space to gain respect. We gradually allow them back into our space once they are respectful and accept us as the leader. The aggression just naturally starts to go away as we work that process.

For the timid or fearful horse...we want more "DRAW" than "Drive." Fearful horses will naturally try to run away or avoid...they aren't dominant. Rather than drive them out of our space to establish boundaries...the goal is to "draw" them to us and establish TRUST first. Once you have the trust of a fearful horse...they will start to relax and that's the key to gaining their respect.

The first priority with an aggressive horse vs. a fearful horse is different. But, either type of horse can seriously injure a human, whether by accident from a fear reaction...or intentionally by an aggressive action. It doesn't matter which type of horse...if they hurt you...you are still going to have the same injuries.

GOOD foundation training...no matter who's methods and exercises you use...serves to establish the respect, control and trust of the horse before going on to any further training under saddle. If a horse does NOT respect us on the ground, they will not respect us on their backs either. If they are fearful on the ground they will be fearful under saddle. The goal is to FIX those things before you get on.

Horses bite and kick each other all the time in a herd environment...to establish dominance and pecking order. The degree of force one horse uses against another is directly related to how much "resistance" the "leader" is getting from the other horse. If the resistance is low, the pressure will be low. The leader will put as much pressure as they must on the other horse to get the response they want. The same thing applies to us when we train horses. As SOON as the "lead" horse gets the response they want, they stop...release the pressure. The other horse learns what is expected of it.

Watch horses in herds. See how they go after each other to establish dominance...then stop as soon as the other horse gives them the correct response. Or watch as they move to higher degrees of pressure...such as serious biting and kicking...if they don't get the "correct" response. It's a "language" that horses naturally understand. When we simulate that....pressure applied in increasing degrees...then total release of that pressure with the correct response....horses naturally understand that "language."

No matter what specialty or discipline we are training for...that principle is what all effective horse training is based on...pressure and release of pressure....things that horses naturally understand. NH clinicians didn't INVENT it. They just brought it to the general public...the average novice horse owner. Each has developed their own specific exercises to set them apart from the others. Then they started writing books and doing clinics and "coined the term" ..."Natural Horsemanship." The only difference in the basic methods and the GOAL...is in the specific exercises that each clinician has developed as their own.

I am a show horse person. As such, I want to learn about training specific advanced things from the World Class trainers in the disciplines/events that I prefer to do. But before I ever get that far, the horse HAS to have a GOOD, solid foundation...be quiet, polite, respectful and confident. I use the foundation training to get that. The advanced work is so easy once you have a good foundation.

As for City Ponies....
I hope you go to the CA tour with an open mind...and LISTEN carefully to the WHY of it.

The reason behind a certain exercise. The performance alone is not the most important thing...it's about gaining the most possible respect and control of a horse in any situation. And don't expect that the brief "overview" you see at the 2 day tour stop is the extent of it. The full program is far more in depth than the short "samples" you will see at the tour. The first time you work the full program on a dangerous horse and see the transformation...that is what it's all about.

[katarine]

Observer, again: what of Clinton's performance at the 2007 Road to the Horse?

[Sithly]

Wow. :eek: Do we have a new, NH version of slc?

[Observer123]

Katarine...

I didn't see 2007 RTTH...but saw the TWO prior RTTH that CA WON HANDS DOWN.

I wouldn't base my opinion on one bad RTTH in 2007. But I've done a lot more than just see a few short demos, expos or tour stops. I've never done any of those things that you speak of and criticize on this board. No bullying, beating, running to exhaustion...or any of that. But then I have actually studied the FULL CA program and actually USED it with WONDERFUL results to train numerous horses. Each of those horses are calm, relaxed, trusting, respectful and willing to learn anything. I can do anything with them, take them anywhere, and trust that their behavior, temperment and performance will be top notch. The owner's are THRILLED with their horses.

I've had the same positive results with every horse...every single time. And there has NEVER been any bullying...none of the stuff you describe. I think it's sad...or worse...that there might be someone who decides not to go and learn more about it FOR THEMSELVES...simply because of the negative things you write on here about it. That there might be people and horses who could be HELPED, but they decided not to learn more about it for themselves...because of YOUR negative opinion. I just want THOSE people to know that MY experience has been nothing like you describe.

Since some of you like to tell your horror stories....

I was sought out to re-train an OTTB that the owner had put in the hands of a local "barn queen/DQ" type. Within a few months that woman had turned him into a total basket case...a nervous wreck, terrified of just about everything. He had gotten to the point where he didn't want the DQ , his owner or anyone else to even mount him...much less ride him. He freaked out one day when his owner tried to mount him, then bolted with her halfway on...she could have been killed. She WAS injured.

I wonder which Dressage/Equitation trainer that woman was following when she fried this horse's brain to a meltdown??? She accomplished that without a round pen too...Imagine that.

When I got him, I started the horse from the beginning of the CA program. I worked within his personality type and gained his trust first. Then worked him up to advanced maneuvers over a period of a year. He's now the calmest horse his owner has. He's always happy because he's relaxed and not fearfull anymore. He hasn't spooked at anything in over a year. He happens to be the sweetest horse...loves people and attention now. His owner is THRILLED with him; so much so that she put two more horses with me. I still ride him. I showed him recently...but he was ouch-y from farrier trimming too short. We still came in 4th place in one class...had to scratch the rest.

That owner's novice Hunter daughter was taking lessons with the same DQ that fried her OTTB. After 6 months or more, the daughter was still afraid to ride or even handle her pushy, green horse on the ground. Her mother took the daughter from that instructor and put her with me too. Together, she, her horse and I worked the same CA program. Within 6 months, they started showing and are now in the Championship position for her novice Hunter division in the show series. Her mother is THRILLED. The girl even rides the formerly freaked out OTTB and loves him.

The "barn queen" took her students to the same show. They took a horse that had been winning last year...but this time, they couldn't even get him in the ring. He reared up and fell over on top of one kid. She put another kid on the same horse...he reared up and dumped her too. Her horses frequently just run off with the kids and despite making a lot of "contact" ....they can't stop 'em. So while my student (her former student) is in position for Champion...the barn queen's horses are still unruly and dangerously resistant. And her students have gained no skills to handle them. And I've watched this over and over at this barn for almost 3 years. The DQ apparently has no good method to correct these problems. She wants the owner to SELL that horse and get a better one. I just shake my head and laugh that she has the audacity to forbid her students from doing the training that I do.

Another of my students...12 years old...less than a year of riding....is now flawlessly riding bridle-less at every gait, in complex patterns and bridle-less over jump courses. We started her on one of the former English lesson horses that the DQ refused to use because it bucked every student she put on it. My 12 year old student started from the beginning and worked the CA program on the horse. The horse is so calm, polite and pleasant now...she never even pins her ears anymore. She started showing in Western events (one handed on a loose rein as required) after 6 months of riding and working the program. She came away with the year end Championship in FIVE divisions. She can now ride that horse bridle-less ANYWHERE...at ANY GAIT, in any pattern. Prior to us starting that horse in training, the DQ advised the owner to SELL HER becuase she was too dangerous and couldn't be used in lessons. Now the DQ fights to be able to use that horse in lessons!

Working the CA program has fixed every problem and completely transformed every horse that the DQ said was dangerous and wanted to SELL.

I have story after positive story with great outcomes....with EVERY horse and every person since I've started training with these methods. There has never been one horse that didn't do extremely well with it. None of them got fried, burnt out, or any of the other negative things you speak of.

The DQ strictly FORBIDS her students to do any of the training that they see me doing. She told them it doesn't work and doesn't help the horses. Hmmmm???? My CHAMPIONS are her former clients...horses and riders!!! She can't get her's through the gate at the show. Recently, another of her students asked me if she can switch to me as her instructor. Said she wanted to learn how to train her horse like that.

I think they choosing the name Grand Prix tells us something. But if you've never studied the entire program and actually USED it on different problem horses...then I don't see where you have much credibility on the subject. You put a lot of weight on the 2007 RTTH...or maybe so other some short demo you saw. An entire program cannot be based on that. Everyone has a bad day now and then. But I notice you conveniently LEFT OUT the fact that CA did WIN two other RTTH prior to 2007...by a landslide.

[Bluey]

---"I've had the same positive results with every horse...every single time. And there has NEVER been any bullying...none of the stuff you describe. I think it's sad...or worse...that there might be someone who decides not to go and learn more about it FOR THEMSELVES...simply because of the negative things you write on here about it. That there might be people and horses who could be HELPED, but they decided not to learn more about it for themselves...because of YOUR negative opinion. I just want THOSE people to know that MY experience has been nothing like you describe."---

You don't have to take anyone's word for it, you can watch CA yourself on RFD-TV every week and see for yourself.

I wonder some times, if someone works with a BNT that is kind of rough, if that seems par for the course, can't see anything wrong with it, it is just "educating" the horse?

If you are not used to that kind of "educating", then it does give pause.

Remember, tough to train horses have been trained by many long before all those NH trainers came along and most good trainers are good, no matter how they do what they do.
Just that some do it with a little bit more finesse.

[Tilly]

Wow. :eek: Do we have a new, NH version of slc?

I believe we do :lol: But the frequent line breaks are nice. Much easier to skim the post :cool:

[tkhawk]

Katarine...



I've had the same positive results with every horse...every single time.



Working the CA program has fixed every problem and completely transformed every horse that the DQ said was dangerous and wanted to SELL.

I have story after positive story with great outcomes....with EVERY horse and every person since I've started training with these methods. There has never been one horse that didn't do extremely well with it. None of them got fried, burnt out, or any of the other negative things you speak of.

.

Observer, I have yet to come across something that works 100% .:winkgrin:

[Tilly]

Observer, I have yet to come across something that works 100% .:winkgrin:

Yes, I've always thought [and was raised] to believe that every horse in an individual and should be treated as such. Not everything works for everyone, and one method does not get 100% perfect results with every single horse you use it on.

But then again, I'm a dressage rider who doesn't do NH ;)

[katarine]

Katarine...

I didn't see 2007 RTTH...but saw the TWO prior RTTH that CA WON HANDS DOWN.

I wouldn't base my opinion on one bad RTTH in 2007. But I've done a lot more than just see a few short demos, expos or tour stops. I've never done any of those things that you speak of and criticize on this board. No bullying, beating, running to exhaustion...or any of that. But then I have actually studied the FULL CA program and actually USED it with WONDERFUL results to train numerous horses.
I think they choosing the name Grand Prix tells us something. But if you've never studied the entire program and actually USED it on different problem horses...then I don't see where you have much credibility on the subject. You put a lot of weight on the 2007 RTTH...or maybe so other some short demo you saw. An entire program cannot be based on that. Everyone has a bad day now and then. But I notice you conveniently LEFT OUT the fact that CA did WIN two other RTTH prior to 2007...by a landslide.

I am openly criticizing one specific person- Mr Clinton Anderson- since he is the one who FAILED to respect and shape that horse's learning experience in a positive way. I didn't see him win, ever- I saw Stacey win it in 06, then Chris Cox in 07, so just as you are hesitant to comment on 07, I can't really comment on 04 and 05. So, now that we're clear: I've seen Clinton with my own eyes start a colt in a colt starting competition: and I've seen him utterly FAIL to do right by that horse. Not one of his graduates...him. Not someone who misunderstands his program. HIM. And I saw him utterly fail to man up and say you know, I got carried away, my fault. I don't expect perfection - I do expect humility. He's yet to publicly show any. His bad. It makes me think very much less of him. And I'm not alone. Tamara saw it, MP wanted to blow up her TV...I can't bear to watch him back the crap out of YET another baby in the name of 'give me your face'. I Do Not Care For His Ways, and I have every right and responsibility- when asked- to offer that opinion.

And, btw, I don't 'choose' Grand Prix'. That's a reflection only of the number of posts I have on this board. I'm a rider with a lonnnng and varied western background- clinics with the real deal, LOL, who is creeping into TWHs and taking dressage lessons with said Walkers.

[Bluesy]

Never have been to one of Clinton's clinics, so I cannot comment on that, however, based on watching him ride - I would not want to. His horses are way too over bent and backed off the bridle, as many of you have pointed out. To me that is so incorrect and just wrong - it looks super uncomfortable to the poor horse!

One of the horses I have worked with had been put in draw reins and made to go with her head in her chest, literally! You'd pick up contact, and boomp! her head would be in her chest. You'd give her a long rein, and she'd go with her head on the ground. It took awhile, and I took my time, but she has definitely made a fair bit of progress. Now, she's accepting the the bit instead of curling behind it, she more relaxed, off the forehand...etc.
Why on earth would to want them so behind the bit?

[Observer123]

Bluey,

I've seen some of the TV episodes. Unfortunately...having studied the full CA program, the TV shows are just not in-depth enough. It's more like a "sampling." I don't believe that anyone could watch the TV show or a clinic or demo and go out and work an effective program from the beginning based on that. A "little" information in the wrong hands can be a disaster. And some people just can't watch video and "get it" enough to go out and do it correctly. Some people need one on one instruction. But they try to do this stuff and mess it up horribly. But I guess that's not limited to CA stuff...people do that with any trainer's material.

I am open to ANY idea from ANYONE who is getting good results. It just adds more tools to my toolbox and I have options.

There is a local semi well known NH trainer in my area. I've seen her 2 day clinic. She takes stuff from about 5 o 6 of the top clinicians and mixes it all up and made her own program out of it. She has nothing new or original...just a mixture of other people's stuff that's already out there. She gave her program a "new age" Eastern spiritual type name....fung shui horsemanship or something. Is it EFFECTIVE? Yes it is. Gets the same results by pooling all those different clinicians material. She markets to a "new age" type clientele. The types that rub essential oils on the horses noses to calm them.

I started out just wanting to answer someone's question on here....because I have a lot of hands on experience with the CA program. Since it has worked so well for me, I just couldn't bring myself to invest a lot more money in the entire programs of all of the other top clinicians too. I figured as long as I found this one first, and it WORKS...I'd just keep using it. But I still like to learn from anyone who gets good results.

I find too many people are not open minded enough to do that. Some believe that their particular discipline is the ONLY correct way of doing anything. If they see something DIFFERENT...it must be WRONG. They are critical of what they really don't know much about. Some talk about their "classical" riding as if it's the ONLY correct way to ride that exists. To them...every other style is wrong or bad. It's SNOBBERY...nothing more.

I've seen the comments on here critical of Western horses that don't go with "contact." It never occurs to these snobs that in Western show disciplines, THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT IS EXPECTED...it is CORRECT. There is a completely different set of rules and expecations of the horse. In Western disciplines, having to ride with "contact" is viewed as the horse being poorly trained or very green. If you showed in Western show events...at any level...with constant "contact," the judge wouldn't even consider placing that horse...wouldn't look at it. Would tell you to come back when you get it better trained.

I chuckle at the comments about Western horses not being forward. More than half of Reining pattern is performed at the GALLOP. Those horss are very forward, very balanced, collected and very CORRECT as they negotiate complicated patterns and maneuvers at high speed. And then they are solid and sane minded enough to stand instantly calm and quiet afterward. Do they look like or do what "classical" dressage horses do? NO. They aren't supposed to.

I PROMISE anyone....that riding a complicated pattern ONE HANDED on a LOOSE rein as REQUIRED...with little or no "contact"....at high speed...with collection and incorporating very advanced maneuvers...is FAR more challenging and difficult than ANY RIDE done with two hands on the reins and constant "contact."

The actual GOAL in most Western events is to show the horse on a completely loose rein to demonstrate it's SELF carriage and finely tuned responsiveness to the rider. There is no higher level of communication than with a top level Reining horse. Western horses are not supposed to DANCE. They aren't suppose to high step. If a Western horse moved like a Dressage horse in a show...it would cause laughter. I have never been able to understand why certain disciplines don't grasp that DIFFERENT doesn't mean LESS THAN.

Can you ride a Reining trained horse or Cutting horse the same way you ride your "classical" Dressage horse? NO. They respond to DIFFERENT things as expected of them in THEIR discipline. They'd be confused by a Dressage rider. But I also promise that a Reining rider who's never ridden a "classical" Dressage horse would think...YUK...this horse is so stiff and straight and has to be ridden with two hands and contact at all times...this is no fun!!!

Most disciplines have their roots in some real life purpose for that style of riding. Then competitions were held to show off the best trained horses for that purpose. Organizations were formed, rules established, criteia for judging and training methods to accomplish the goals. Each one is simply DIFFERNT. Not BETTER or WORSE. Some people like the Opera and the Ballet. Makes other's yawn. Some people like Poodle dogs with bows in their ultra coiffed coats. Some people are awed at the sight of a working cattle dog. I'm just so annoyed by the "classical" bunch of snobs who think their way is the ONLY correct way.

The funniest thing is...if they showed up at their barn and their "classical" trainer decided to start them working some of these NH methods before they ever saw a "cowboy" doing it...they would think it was great. MUST BE GREAT...if it came from a classical Dressage trainer!

But...as I've said...none of these clinicians INVENTED any of the the stuff they do..it's BEEN out there for a lot longer than we realize. But before the days of video and RFD TV...it just wasn't as accessible to the general public. The modern clinicians are reaching broad audiences. Each has to put some type of personal spin on their program to make it uniquely theirs. Some even do something completely opposite just to set themselves appart. But it's all basically the same...based on the same principles and aiming for the same goals...respect, control, calmness, relaxation, softness, responsiveness...etc.

I like to learn ANYTHING from ANYONE who is getting good results. I'd learn from any classical Dressage trainer if what they had to teach could improve my horse in the discipline I want to do. If it didn't help in MY discipline of choice...then there would be no reason for me to use it...but it doesn't mean it's WRONG.

[KayBee]

I PROMISE anyone....that riding a complicated pattern ONE HANDED on a LOOSE rein as REQUIRED...with little or no "contact"....at high speed...with collection and incorporating very advanced maneuvers...is FAR more challenging and difficult than ANY RIDE done with two hands on the reins and constant "contact."

I have never been able to understand why certain disciplines don't grasp that DIFFERENT doesn't mean LESS THAN.

Some of what you say I agree with -- but can you see the contradiction between the first quote and the second?

[Bluey]

---"Bluey,

I've seen some of the TV episodes. Unfortunately...having studied the full CA program, the TV shows are just not in-depth enough. It's more like a "sampling." I don't believe that anyone could watch the TV show or a clinic or demo and go out and work an effective program from the beginning based on that. A "little" information in the wrong hands can be a disaster. And some people just can't watch video and "get it" enough to go out and do it correctly. Some people need one on one instruction. But they try to do this stuff and mess it up horribly. But I guess that's not limited to CA stuff...people do that with any trainer's material. "---


Since you call on me, I will respond.:)
I right now ride reining and working cowhorses, so I do know how they go and why, no need to sidetrack the talk here with long explanations about what you think about that.;)


I have watched CA in a two day demonstration, watched him work with his own horses and horses provided for him to train.
I have seen him on RFD-TV.
No, I don't know all he does teach and that is not what I am talking about, because I don't know about it.
What some of us are saying is that, as a trainer, he is rather rough on the horses, in the name of getting them to mind and guess what, many of us have horses that mind just as well and we don't have to do all he does to get there, have other, more easy ways to do it, where we don't have to bonk our horses on the head to make them move, or scoot around when we just look at them.

Good if you like that, but there is other ways, that give you well mannered, polite horses that stand there as long as you want AND don't get uptight every time we move around them.
Did you notice how his horses have to keep licking their lips and sighting, to release stress?
Yes, a stressed horse will do that, it is not a submissive gesture, it is a gesture that shows a horse was under undue stress.
Ok at times, not ok when that is the way a horse has to perform all the time.

I went to watch CA with an open mind, didn't think much of what I was going to see and watched with interest.
I can't help, neither does anyone that has been training horses for 40 years all the little things, where he was good, where he was rough, how the horses responded.
As with any other horse experience, we can learn any place, any time.
I think that CA is getting better, I think that he could easily get much better if someone would point a few things to him, just as all of us could, no matter how much or little we think we know.:winkgrin:

To each their own, different strokes and all that.:yes:

[Observer123]

************************************************** ************
I saw him utterly fail to man up and say you know, I got carried away, my fault. I don't expect perfection - I do expect humility. He's yet to publicly show any. His bad. It makes me think very much less of him.

************************************************** ********

Maybe there's a copy of 2007 RTTH on ebay that I can get cheap and check it out.

You know, I actually agree with you if it was as bad as you describe...maybe it would have been a good thing for him to "man up" and admit what he coulda shoulda done differently. If you think less of him for that, I don't blame you. But I have to laugh when I think...men will be men...most have a terrible time doing that. Don't we all wish more men would do that?

I don't actually know what the purpose RTTH serves anyway. In 2005 I heard CA say numerous times that he would never do it this way if he was starting a horse at home...but the way that RTTH is set up...they are required to cram what should take days or weeks into 3 hours. It's a contest...and at the end, the one whose horse can perform what the contest rules dictate better than the others WINS the contest. Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it SHOULD. Maybe he got some idea that MORE was BETTER and it backfired.

I don't think anyone should misunderstand that what they see at RTTH is the way we SHOULD start a horse. Take it for what it's organizers intend...a contest.

I don't have RFD TV, so I don't watch those short segments. I haven't seen RTTH since 2005. I got most of the program DVD's years ago, and I know all the material so I don't feel the need to go see clinics anymore. For all I know, with his huge success...has also creeped in a huge ego. That's not flattering. If so, that's regretful, because I do believe there is a lot good about the program that works well. I have never had to do ANYTHING to the extreme when I work the program. Nothing like you describe. All I've ever said was simply that it has worked extremely well for me on numerous horses. Regardless of the man and his ego.

I have a completely different experience with it than you have...mine has been positive. I think it does a disservice to anyone reading who might have just gone to find out for themselves...but now won't based on your negative ranting about the 2007 RTTH.

I'm quite certain there are also lots of other people out there who have actually had hands on experience that is very positive. I guess I feel like people should hear about the positives as well.

Dressage now Huh? It's a beautiful thing to watch. But from the extreme snobbery I witness when around it...I couldn't handle the people long enough to actually get involved in it. Talk about HUGE EGO's...it's ridiculous every time I've been around it.

[foundationmare]

Good lord, I was going to respond but I've come to my senses and will refrain.

[Observer123]

....many of us have horses that mind just as well and we don't have to do all he does to get there...

EXACTLY. It's a WHOLE different story when you DO get one that is far worse than the average horse that's a little pushy, a little unruly, somewhat green. And luckily that is what MOST people have. Let's face it...the average person shops for a horse that's already had basic training and not too many problems. There is nothing in any training program that would tell you to be extreme with that type of horse. By the same token, you can learn things you can safely do to deal with a horse that is much more dangerous.

What would you do...if you were charged with training a horse that is truly seriously aggressive and unpredictable? Besides decline to do it.

The scenario:

You are at the barn alone...the aggressive stallion you've taken on for training decides to jump you as you're casually walking him in halter/lead rope. He plows into head first in an attmept to trample you. He gets you pinned against the fence...and keeps pressing? He has a leather halter on with a chain around his nose...but he's not fazed by you trying to back him off or pulling on the lead rope? He will NOT budge.

There's no one around you can call for help from. You don't have a lot of time because you HAVE to so something before he breaks your ribs, your neck or knocks the wind out of you...or seriously hurts you. What do you do?

Luckily MOST people have those "average" horses with mild or minor issues. But there are those enough horses out there like the one above. Aside from declining to handle such a horse...If you were in that position, what would you do immediately to get him off you...and afterward to to actually get him trained?

[Tilly]

I PROMISE anyone....that riding a complicated pattern ONE HANDED on a LOOSE rein as REQUIRED...with little or no "contact"....at high speed...with collection and incorporating very advanced maneuvers...is FAR more challenging and difficult than ANY RIDE done with two hands on the reins and constant "contact."


The ignorance of this statement amazes me.

[Observer123]

Bluey,

That's great to hear...Reining and Cow Horse!! What area of the country are you in? Is this something new you are trying or has it always been your discipline of choice? Do you own any? Do you compete?

I am displaced....stuck in an east coast town where there isn't a Reining or Cow Horse within a day's drive. In this area...if you don't do Dressage, Hunter, Jumper or Eventing, you are are looked upon as someone who couldn't possibly know the first thing about the CORRECT way to ride. Just biding my time...hoping to get away from here.

[Deuce]

Observer - this aggressive stallion you keep mentioning ad nauseam would immediately become a gelding in my barn...

... and I wouldn't ever walk/handle anything known to be aggressive in a "casually" manner. I try to avoid dangerous situations.

And trust me when I say I have handled some very aggressive horses... without chasing them in circles until they're lathered and exhuasted or beating the crap out of them.

The thing is, observer, many of us HAVE seen NH first hand. Many of us have handled NH trained horses (and spent many months getting them over the trauma). Many of us have seen demonstrations/clinics of professional NH trainers.... We understand the concept....

... and it has done nothing except make us dislike it more.

Oh, and I have a friend who adored CA and went to one of his clinics... she learned two things. 1. She never wants to go to another of his clinics ever again and 2. he apparently can't train arabians, at least not to load on a trailer.

Foundationmare, yours is the best post in the thread.

[Tilly]

X

[Arcadien]

Rubies & Pearls, almost did the same, lol.

Just too late, the added entertainment value of posting isn't worth it so close to bedtime, lol.

(OP you seem quite on the right track though, IMHO)

[Bluey]

Bluey,

That's great to hear...Reining and Cow Horse!! What area of the country are you in? Is this something new you are trying or has it always been your discipline of choice? Do you own any? Do you compete?

I am displaced....stuck in an east coast town where there isn't a Reining or Cow Horse within a day's drive. In this area...if you don't do Dressage, Hunter, Jumper or Eventing, you are are looked upon as someone who couldn't possibly know the first thing about the CORRECT way to ride. Just biding my time...hoping to get away from here.

We really should never assume too much about others, really.;)

Are you aware that this horse web site is sponsored by a great old magazine, The Chronicle of The Horse, that is dedicated to dressage, jumping, three day event, steeplechase and driving, along with a few other thrown in?

I don't think that any seemingly derogatory comments about any kind of English riding will be too welcome here.:eek:

[Bluey]

Good lord, I was going to respond but I've come to my senses and will refrain.

Good call there.:winkgrin:

[Bluey]

Oh, about your stallion story, that handler was long behind the curve by the time the horse even thought to attack anyone.:no:

Training is first about setting the situation for success, the trainer's and the horse's success.:cool:
Once we are in trouble, someone missed way too much.:eek:
Experience helps there very much.:yes:

[MistyBlue]

That's great to hear...Reining and Cow Horse!! What area of the country are you in? Is this something new you are trying or has it always been your discipline of choice? Do you own any? Do you compete?
I don't think it's really new to Bluey. ;) When she rides a cow horse, she's working cows. She has working ranch horses. I don't think it's a competition unless it's between Bluey and the cows.

I'm on the east coast too...Connecticut. You'd be surprised at how many ranch horses there are here. I went a couple months ago to watch a ranch horse competition...reining pattern followed by cutting followed by roping, all in one class. Timed. Pretty cool to watch.
CT has quite a few reining barns, places for team penning, barrel racing barns and western pleasure barns. Only two working ranch horse barns I can think of off the top of my head.

There isn't what I'd call a big following of CA around here, but more than a smattering of Parelli-ites. But those are easier to find what with all the past PMU foal purchases that were "trained" by videos and carrot sticks. Can't walk a mile in my area without coming across a draft cross 5 year old that still isn't halter broke, LOL!

I'm a jumper rider who has two ranch horses right now. (still not sure how that happened, LOL) So I've started looking into the faster western discipines and sports (because mine aren't wp horses thank goodness) and I was surprised at how many western discipline barns and shows there are in CT and MA.

As for the stallion...not sure why having testicles makes it worse...I've never known a good experienced horse person that didn't bring up intact horses to have the same manners as a gelding. As for pushy and dangerous, had my share of those. Quite often...I like the difficult ones. I've never tried to stare one into submission though. And I've never led one with a long enough lead for it to turn on me or attack from behind. Drop back a half of a body length, pull the face around and down, grab the lip and it can't pin you. If a horse is that nasty...well, lots of horses folks have learned how to stay near enough in the right location to keep it from pinning you. We used to call it Rodeo Clowning. :P
And unlike CA, there are thousands of horse folks who know enough to NOT piss the horse off enough for it to attack. ;)

[Sithly]

I don't think that any seemingly derogatory comments about any kind of English riding will be too welcome here.:eek:

Correct. This board is for derogatory comments about OTHER disiciplines. :lol:

I'm not a fan of CA either, but to lump all NH together as horrible and abusive is just absurd. Talk about throwing the baby out with the bath water. It would be like deciding all dressage is terrible because you don't like the way Anky rides. Stupid.

For the record, I don't like the way CA rides or how his horses go. Yet there are probably some good, useful things in his program. OMG, how do I resolve this cognitive dissonance? :rolleyes:

Observer123/WesternSLC: I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with your WWYD situation. You could give that horse to ten different skilled trainers with radically different methods, and they'd all turn the horse around in short order. CA doesn't have the market cornered on dealing with spoiled, aggressive stallions.

[Observer123]

Deuce,

The owner didn't want him gelded...she wanted her STALLION trained.

My questions were sincere...I was curious as to what others might have done. I was looking for an honest sincere response, not sarcasm that didn't tell me anything about what you WOULD do.
.
I had never heard of CA, NH, or any of these methods or any of these clinicians when I started with this horse. I had never round penned a horse and didn't see the point of it at all. I thought video horse trainers was a ridiculous notion. I'd never seen one...but it sounded ridiculous to me.
.
But my previous questions were:
.
Besides declining to take him for training...
.
What WOULD you do at that moment to get him to back off you?
What would you do after that to proceed to train him?
.
Try to avoid any potentially dangerous situations...that would technically mean avoiding that horse altogether. Don't think I didn't consider that option. My poor father was a wreck because I didn't decline.
.
I accept that in reality, handling any horse can possibly bring with it the potential for a dangerous situation. What I knew as the standard precautions were taken.
.
Started out with chain on the horse...and was carrying a dressage whip...as an added precaution...the "just in case" with this horse. Perhaps using the term "casually" wasn't the appropriate choice of words. Leading him "normally" might have been a better choice of words...but with the precaution of chain and dressage whip as an added safety measure. Horse was fine...wasn't being aggressive initially. Just suddenly had a stallion moment. I thought my precautions would handle him if that happened. But in a flash he pushed me right into the fence.
.
Your reply stated what you WOULDN'T do...but you NEVER said what you WOULD do. And that was my question.
.
What other precautions beyond the chain and dressage whip would YOU have taken in order to lead this horse in the first place?
.
Despite the standard precautions taken...what WOULD you do to get the horse to back off of you once you did have a potentially dangerous situation?
.
So besides avoiding the horse...or gelding the horse...do you have any sincere thoughts on what you WOULD do?

[Sithly]

So besides avoiding the horse...or gelding the horse...do you have any sincere thoughts on what you WOULD do?

Perhaps you should start a new thread with this topic.

[Observer123]

Sithly...LOVE that reply...
Correct. This board is for derogatory comments about OTHER disiciplines

I really appreciate your lack of hostility in your posts. I've been stuck at home sick. Due to boredom, I was browsing and just happened upon this board. I noticed that some of you have like multi thousands of posts on here. Where do you find the time? I hope it's usually more pleasant. It seems funny now...I just wanted to answer a simple question someone posed...from the perspective of having good experiences with the CA program. I expected some different opinions, but not the kind of hostility I've seen from some.

As far as the derrogatory comments about "other" disciplines. Funny how it seems that "other" usually just means "Western." I personally think English RIDING is great...what I don't think is, that it's the only "correct" way or that it's superior to "other" disciplines. It's not the English discipline...it's the attitude of superiority that's disturbing.
.
I applaud everyone who has opened their minds and expanded them to learn about, appreciate and RESPECT "other" disciplines.
.
As far as my WWYD questions...the questions had nothing to do with CA and whether he had a corner on the market for dealing spoiled aggressive horses. There are thousands of top notch horse trainers. I posed the question because some posters were only commenting on what THEY WOULD NEVER DO...but not saying what they WOULD DO. It appears that most of us who have found this board are pretty "average" horse people. I don't get the idea that the top trainers of the world are posting here. So after hearing so much about what some WOULDN'T do...I really was sincere about wondering what they WOULD do.
.
At the time I started with that horse, I had never heard of CA, NH, or any of those "clinicians." Just the idea of it seemed strange to me. I've been riding since age 5 and showing since age 7. When I took on that stallion, I'd had more than 25 years experience with horses, but pretty much concentrated on better minded show horses. I'd never had one that was so intentionally aggressive. THAT was new to me.

But, contrary to what I've heard others on here say...I never had to "beat the crap" out of ANY horse...and didn't get the idea from CA that we should. I didn't get the message that the purpose of round penning was about "chasing them around until they're exhausted." So that never happens either. I've watched the entire program quite a few times and I just couldn't figure out how there was such a dramatic difference in the interpretation.

As far as the hostile opinions go...completely different interpretation of the program than I have.

The CA statements I hear most when I watch/listen are:

"Start out as gentle as possible, but be as firm as necessary."
.
"Your safety comes first. You can't train a horse if you're dead."
.
"If a horse is being aggressive with you...don't be afraid you're going to hurt the horse...because the horse isn't afraid of hurting you." Horses don't feel guilty if they put you in the hospital.
.
All of that sounds logical to me. I take it to mean that not every horse is going to be that "average" horse that isn't dangerous. If you have a nice horse...then you probably never need any of this and you'd never have to go beyond being as gentle as possible. But's he's also saying...if you DO have an aggressive horse...put YOUR safety first.."Be as firm as NECESSARY." I don't interpret any of that as him saying for us to beat the crap out of our horses.

As for how his horses go...
.
It might have something to do with it being the current style or frame that the NRHA judges want to see. A lot of NRHA horses move very similar to that. It can't be viewed by the standards for any other discipline. It's obviously not what's desired in other disciplines...but it just might be what's currently desired in Reining. Top level competition often dictates the trends in every discipline.

I really appreciate all of you who posted without tones of anger or sarcasm.

[Bluey]

---"I really appreciate all of you who posted without tones of anger or sarcasm."---

Just think that some may have been responding to your own tone.
It generally takes two to tango.:yes:

Not saying that you did or not, but I would listen to all that respond, take what you can use from that, discard the other.
There was some solid criticism of CA here that is true, even if you have not noticed it, just as I am sure there is some true in what you so glowingly told us about how his teachings have worked for you.:)

[katarine]

I really appreciate all of you who posted without tones of anger or sarcasm.


If only the same could be said of you. I won't bother to take the time to point them out to you, they are as plain as the nose on your face. Pot, meet keetle LOL!


I've ridden with Ray Hunt. Observer, while you are so certain I among others don't know zip about NH....Do you know who he was?

[Observer123]

Misty Blue,

Wow...thank you for such a pleasant post and your sincere reply to the questions I posed. It was really nice of you.

I got a chuckle out of your comment....

Can't walk a mile in my area without coming across a draft cross 5 year old that still isn't halter broke, LOL!

I am surprised there's much Western going on in New England. I would never have guessed that. Good luck with your new horses and adventures in Western.

My passion is cutting...but with it being necessary to have a good supply of cattle on hand...makes it impossible for me to do it at home. The closest Cutting trainer to me is almost 3 hours away. Can't make that commute very often. My mother lives only a few minutes from the FCHA main arena. There are several trainers within a reasonable distance from her place. I always go when I'm visiting her...but...that's 1000 miles from me and I can't visit very often.

There are some barrel racing places not far from me...I did that as a kid...until my mother decided she wanted me to learn "dignified" riding! I remember it being a LOT of fun. Should have kept it up...there's really BIG money in it at the upper levels.

You wrote:

Quite often...I like the difficult ones.

I LOVED that horse...even in the worst of times. Nobody understood why. There was just something about him that I loved.
.
Thank you for your sincere answers to the questions I posed. I really appreciate hearing ideas or experiences others have had and how they handled it.
.
CA or whoever...I didn't really care WHO it came from...I was just happy to come across someone with some good techniques that really turned that horse around. He never did anything dangerous like that one incident again. He was a breeze to start under saddle. He was so smart and confident. I loved that about him. In no time I was able to ride him around bareback with just a halter on. I had the best times with that horse. Watching his progress and transformation was was very rewarding. I wouldn't trade the whole experience for a barn full of quiet horses.

I worked with him for 18 months and I really missed him afterward.

Thank you again for sharing your ideas and for your pleasant "conversation."

[Observer123]

Bluey,

I can't help but laugh at myself...you are SO right...I sure got caught up in that drama!!! GEEZ...who knew!!

I'm laughing at myself because I usually only OBSERVE forums like this...for exactly the reasons you cited...take what I can...discard the rest. I NEVER post...usually just don't have the TIME. I've been stuck home sick all week...and bored. Came across this forum by chance and saw a simple question posed by someone on a topic I've had a lot of positive experiences with. I thought, what they heck...I have the TIME on my hands...I'll reply to that one. WHEW!!!!
.
I mostly feel like I'm sorry I did that. This might as well have been a forum on religion or politics....LOL. I do always try to see some good in things though. I HAVE learned a few things if nothing else. I noticed you have more that 12,000 posts to your name on here, so you've gotten good at it. Thank you and take care.

[Ghazzu]

Katarine...

I didn't see 2007 RTTH...but saw the TWO prior RTTH that CA WON HANDS DOWN.

I wouldn't base my opinion on one bad RTTH in 2007.

I only need to see a trainer get abusive once. I don't need multiple instances to get the message.


But I've done a lot more than just see a few short demos, expos or tour stops. I've never done any of those things that you speak of and criticize on this board. No bullying, beating, running to exhaustion...or any of that.

Good for you. But I don't recall katarine accusing you of any of that. It was CA.


I think it's sad...or worse...that there might be someone who decides not to go and learn more about it FOR THEMSELVES...simply because of the negative things you write on here about it. That there might be people and horses who could be HELPED, but they decided not to learn more about it for themselves...because of YOUR negative opinion. I just want THOSE people to know that MY experience has been nothing like you describe.


I believe katarine has recommended that people actually seek out and *watch* the 2007 RTTH video, and then judge for themselves.

Numerous wondrous accounts of fixing the wrecks created by some local incompetent deleted...

I don't believe anyone here has said there aren't morons in every discipline.


I think they choosing the name Grand Prix tells us something.

If you'd spent any time here, you'd have noticed that it is one of a number of designations appended to posters usernames based on post count.


But if you've never studied the entire program and actually USED it on different problem horses...then I don't see where you have much credibility on the subject.

OTOH, katarine has been here long enough for the rest of us to be able to formulate an opinion regarding her credibility in general, unlike yourself, who wades in with all the fervor of a convert to the One True Religion, to tell us that if we don't think CA is the answer to every problem, we're just plain wrong.


You put a lot of weight on the 2007 RTTH...or maybe so other some short demo you saw. An entire program cannot be based on that. Everyone has a bad day now and then. But I notice you conveniently LEFT OUT the fact that CA did WIN two other RTTH prior to 2007...by a landslide.

If a BNT of any stripe had little enough self restraint that he couldn't keep a lid on it when the cameras were running, I'd be even more worried about what went on when they weren't.

[Observer123]

Katarine,

You wrote:
I've ridden with Ray Hunt.

You're telling your AGE !!!

But seriously, congratulations on that...I'm sure it was a very rewarding experience. I would have loved the opportunity. I'm not going to tell you whose "barn" I'd like to get into!!! Notice I didn't say whose "pants!"

Observer, while you are so certain I among others don't know zip about NH...Do you know who he was?

I'm still laughing at myself that I even got caught up in this at all. I know I posted responses to some negative comments by giving a lot of examples and stories that have formed MY personal opinion on the CA program. Not the MAN...the method. But cutting through all that ...at the heart of it...all I've really ever said was....that I have personally had very DIFFERENT and positive experiences than some of you; which came from hands on application of the method with numerous horses. And that I never saw things that some of you have seen...and I've never interpreted things the way some of you have. MY experience with it has simply been DIFFERENT than yours.
.
I HOPE it's still okay in America that one's experiences and opinions can DIFFER. I certainly didn't expect it to progress to violence..."cutting off CA's balls" and such!!! GEEZ, maybe someone should WARN him!!

You take care Katarine...many safe and happy rides to you!

[katarine]

Maybe going forward, Observer, when folks disagree with you about CA, you won't slap down that knee-jerk high horse opinion of yours that they don't know enough to disagree with you. This is certainly what you have said, ad nauseum. When you ASSumed I was an uppity english rider, you knew where to pigeon hole me- uppity clueless treat loving crowd- your picture of the world, not mine. Ummm, wrong. Now that you know I've ridden with Ray, and Doug Milholland while we're at it ...only now are you respectful and decent toward me.

I didn't disrespect you. I disrespected CA. You made it personal and attacked me, then went on to disparage dressage, disparage the entire range of riding two-handed, actually...but now you plead innocent, declaring I'm sick and 'all I said was blah blah blah'. No, actually, that is not all you said.

Real men apologize. So do real women. Go figure.

[Observer123]

Ghazzu

You wrote:
"....to tell us that if we don't think CA is the answer to every problem, we're just plain wrong....."

NEVER SAID ANY SUCH THING!!! I never ONCE said anyone on here was WRONG. I never disputed anyone else's personal experience. I simply reponded...each time...with examples of MY positive experiences...nothing more. That means our experiences and opinions are DIFFERENT. There is no right or wrong...it's just DIFFERENT. Yours not like mine...mine not like yours.

I HOPE it's still okay in America that one's experiences and opinions can DIFFER.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique
We all know CA's "ethnic" jokes about Arabs, don't we?
Ghazzu, you take care...I wish you many safe and happy rides!

[birdsong]

You know, CP--and I mean this in the kindest possible way--maybe you should just go watch and see what all of the hoopla is about. The fact that you imagine you will be welcome at the clinic site, with your own horses, so you might be able to show everyone how much better your GM-based training is (as tho CA has never seen/heard of this), leads me to believe you have had little experience with these commercial clinics. This is someone who *makes a living* off of these shows; their operation isn't going to welcome anyone with a horse who isn't an acolyte, hasn't been invited in advance and doesn't have a clearly defined role that meets CA's agenda. Unless you are a much bigger name than I suspect (in which case you'd know what the story is and your mom wouldn't have made this kind-but-perhaps-misguided gesture), you really ought to ... well, just go watch, since you're being given the opportunity. Even if you don't agree with what CA teaches, he's a big enough name that it is well worth your while to understand what he teaches so that you can speak from an informed perspective when a prospective student asks what you think of CA's training approach. Just a thought.


Ditto....

[Tamara in TN]

=Observer123;4402101]Ghazzu

I HOPE it's still okay in America that one's experiences and opinions can DIFFER.


you've been under a rock apparently:(


[B]
Unashamed member of the Arab clique
We all know CA's "ethnic" jokes about Arabs, don't we?


ummm, no some of us don't give a big enough rat's ass about the scrawny little showpot turned reining horse breeder wanna be to pay much attention to how he bashes Arabs (which are right up there with our Cobs in so far as cleverness is concerned);)

but do tell....


best

[Ghazzu]

Ghazzu

You wrote:
"....to tell us that if we don't think CA is the answer to every problem, we're just plain wrong....."

NEVER SAID ANY SUCH THING!!! I never ONCE said anyone on here was WRONG. I never disputed anyone else's personal experience.



I've never personally met a totally devoted "English" rider who believes they can learn ANYTHING from ANYONE "Western."...
it's the PEOPLE who have to fully grasp the "psychology" behind it to understand why it works just as well on ANY horse...And to the person who MISUNDERSTOOD or wasn't listening closely enough...




I HOPE it's still okay in America that one's experiences and opinions can DIFFER.Indeed. And a lot of folk here simply don't think CA is all that and a bag of chips.


Unashamed member of the Arab clique
We all know CA's "ethnic" jokes about Arabs, don't we?

Don't know, don't care.
Unlikely to be either original or amusing.
Or correct, for that matter.

[Observer123]

Katerine,

There have been a lot of things written that obviously have not been taken as intended...and my apologies for anything I wrote that was not heard as it was intended. I sincerely hope this effort at fixing that comes out well and makes sense to you.

I have never been into this forum thing before, and I've discovered that I don't think I'm cut out for for this form of "communication." It hasn't been a pleasant experience for me.

You wrote:

"....you ASSumed I was an uppity english rider...."

Guilty!!! Very wrong of me...my sincere apologies!! That didn't mean I assumed you didn't know anything...it just meant I assumed you were "uppity." I figured you were just like those I deal with every time I go to the barn. I'm very pleased to find out you are NOT. And I never felt that you were disrespecting me. I don't think I ever said that I felt that way. I get it loud and clear that you were disrespecting CA.

You wrote:

".....that we don't know enough to disagree with you. This is certainly what you have said...."

I have tried to find where I said that...because I didn't think I said that. But I think I might have figured out what I said that you TOOK IT THAT WAY.

All along...I have been trying to write about a training program...not CA the man. I kept trying to focus my posts on the program...the methods and exercises. Every time I wrote something else about it....you didn't respond with comments on the full program, you just kept responding with more criticism about 2007 RTTH. Then I would go right back to explaining the PROGRAM again. Again you would only respond by bringing up RTTH 2007.

I was taking your responses to mean that there couldn't be ANYTHING positive in the entire CA training program just because of what you saw him do at 2007 RTTH. I didn't understand why you were disparaging the entire PROGRAM just because of what CA did at 2007 RTTH. I am NOT saying that you ever said that...I'm just saying that I TOOK IT THAT WAY.

As a result...I kept trying to give you even more examples from my personal experience that spoke to the positive things about the program.

I sincerely apologize if you took that to mean that I was saying that you didn't know enough. That was NOT my reason for that, and not my intention for you to take it that way. But if I am correct, I think that YOU DID TAKE IT THAT WAY.

I was taking some things the wrong way...I was taking your criticism to mean that you were saying I was using a bad/abusive training program on my horses because of CA's "performance" at the RTTH. I'm sure that's why I kept trying to convince you that regardless of 2007 RTTH, there was a lot of positive material in the FULL training program.

I know I've NEVER SAID this was the BEST program out there...or that anyone who doesn't think so is WRONG. I apologize if you thought I was saying that. I've never even cared whose name was on the program. I was just happy to find a program that contains some good ideas and methods that have proven very effective FOR ME.

I guess all along...it's been ME who felt like you were saying I was "wrong" for using a program by CA because of what happened at the RTTH 2007.

I guess what I was expecting...and couldn't get from you...is that you would acknowledge that beyond 2007 RTTH, there might be something worthwhile in the FULL training program.

I did want to say that I DO enjoy Dressage...as in the talent and performance of the horse. In fact, I said it's a beautiful to watch. It's just that I'm turned off by the attitude of the people I meet who are involved in it. I deal with them all the time around the barn. I am involved in the Hunter/Equitation thing myself...but it's not always fun for me because it's close to the same attitude in those circles too.

I admit that I sort of "lashed out" about the Reining vs. Dressage because I get so tired of hearing people touting the supremacy of "Classical" horsemanship. The way they criticize the riding and standards of "other" disciplines because there is no other truth..."Classical" horsemanship as the ONLY CORRECT WAY of riding. My "sensitivity" about that just goes back to having to listen to it endlessly at the barn.

As for you thinking that I now treat you with more respect only because I found out that you rode with Ray Hunt. That's not it at all. Any of us with the $$$ and the horse can go to clinics and ride with famous clinicians. The real reason is because you corrected me about you being one of those "uppity" English riders!!! LOL !! That's just a joke!

Seriously, I never felt that I disrespected you. That was never my thoughts. I regret it if any of this bantering made you feel that way.

As for me being home sick....Well, all I meant by that was...if I had not been stuck in the house sick...I would never have been so bored...and I never would have ended up getting on this forum in the first place...and ALL OFTHIS would have been avoided!!!

I hope I covered everything here...tied up the "loose ends" of anything that I needed to apologize for. And I hope it's received well, with my best intentions.

I really am looking to just move on....
I'm not as sick as I was....
Don't we ALL have some horses to go ride or something?

[Bluesy]

I have to admit, I was taken aback by your response, observer. I am mainly an english rider, however I did grow up riding western, and did take a double major in horsemanship in college. I took 2 years of english (dressage and h/j) and 1 year of western(pleasure/working cow horse/cutting/reining) and have learned from both disciplines greatly.

I have nothing against western riders or trainers, but I am a fairly educated horse person (if I do say so myself), and do NOT like what I see in CA. (That being said, I know some great western trainers, and some poor ones - just exactly like in the english world.) CA rubs me the wrong way and I would not allow him on either of my horses. (my TB, whom I ride english or my QH, whom I ride either english or western, depending on my mood.)

And, I really dislike stereotypes - I do not think I am arrogant just because I ride english!(heck, I'm a doormat)I know many people who ride english who are wonderful,some who are twits, and know arrogant western riders, as well as wonderful ones. The world takes all kinds :nods:

[Sithly]

Good to know you're just a regular Joe who's home sick, Observer. For a moment there, I thought you were working for Clinton Anderson -- and getting paid by the word. ;)

[kookicat]

And no-one broke out the popcorn? :eek: :lol:

What does everyone think of Monty Roberts?

[monstrpony]

FWIW, there are some of us here who have been trying for *YEARS* to separate the good qualities of the horsemanship from the bad qulaitites of some of the names associated with it. There are many here who, for whatever reason, are unable to separate the two (though I will say, Katarine is NOT among that group). It's a long, uphill, ugly battle, and probably a losing one--I've seen folks far more articulate than myself try and fail repeatedly. Though, on the other hand, there are occasional victories--moments when a critic happens across some no-name cowboy who is able to get through to a troubled horse, and an "AHA!" moment happens--alas, like so many other things in life, the good spots get lost in the wash, and the loud, squalling arguments go on and on. As well, many of the folks who condemn anything remotely associated with so-called natural horsemanship are themselves very accomplished horsepersons, but they are so put off by the tawdry commercialism and--rightly so--the corner-cutting that occurs in the shows of the big-names that they lose sight of the similarities between the *horsemanship* behind the "programs" and what they practice themselves. In those cases, for myself, as long as the horses are the winners in this debate, I can live with it.

It can be interesting to watch if you have some time to kill, but in the end it's probably better to just go ride your horse.

[katarine]

Good :) we were typing at each other, not hearing each other. You wanted to promote the good of the program, I wanted to express my concerns with the bad. Plainly two different goal. You may not have seen the previous post of mine: I like how he handles horses that sit back tied, and the video of the blocker tie ring. And spoiled princess ponies that don't want to load, I don't mind his method. I prefer others, but don't mind his.

At the end of the day, where we can agree, is that some of his program's core principles aren't bad, as they are rooted in the same stuff many other 'big names' do. So the principles aren't bad. In my opinion *his* application and nuance on those principles is what lacks finesse, what comes across as so heavy handed. I was watching a blurb of John Lyons yesterday from rtth 2008, noting how he touches horses, his tone. The man loves horses. I humbly put out there that Clinton's manner of touching horses, rubbing them, has a hard feel to it, an edge. I guess I would say I'm not sure he even really likes horses. That nuance is a deal breaker for me. If you are successfully applying his program, you and the horses are happy, that's super. Because at the end of the day, that is all that matters. Imagine the rolled eyes and mocking I get telling hard core gaited horse peeps we're doing dressage, me and a hot bred TWH. They think I'm nuts. That's ok, it's my horse and we're happy :)


I rode two yesterday evening when the rain finally stopped. Going trail riding today.


Hope you get to feeling better soon.

[Sithly]

FWIW, there are some of us here who have been trying for *YEARS* to separate the good qualities of the horsemanship from the bad qulaitites of some of the names associated with it. There are many here who, for whatever reason, are unable to separate the two (though I will say, Katarine is NOT among that group). It's a long, uphill, ugly battle, and probably a losing one--I've seen folks far more articulate than myself try and fail repeatedly. Though, on the other hand, there are occasional victories--moments when a critic happens across some no-name cowboy who is able to get through to a troubled horse, and an "AHA!" moment happens--alas, like so many other things in life, the good spots get lost in the wash, and the loud, squalling arguments go on and on. As well, many of the folks who condemn anything remotely associated with so-called natural horsemanship are themselves very accomplished horsepersons, but they are so put off by the tawdry commercialism and--rightly so--the corner-cutting that occurs in the shows of the big-names that they lose sight of the similarities between the *horsemanship* behind the "programs" and what they practice themselves. In those cases, for myself, as long as the horses are the winners in this debate, I can live with it.

It can be interesting to watch if you have some time to kill, but in the end it's probably better to just go ride your horse.

Amen. :yes: Very wise words.

In my opinion *his* application and nuance on those principles is what lacks finesse, what comes across as so heavy handed. I was watching a blurb of John Lyons yesterday from rtth 2008, noting how he touches horses, his tone. The man loves horses. I humbly put out there that Clinton's manner of touching horses, rubbing them, has a hard feel to it, an edge.

Aha moment! I watched Tommie Turvey's trick performance at my local expo, and while I thought he was an amazing performer with a great routine, something bugged me about him. I think you just put it into words, Katarine. He had an edge to him that I didn't like. I was trying to explain it to a friend who wasn't there, and I couldn't put it into words. Thanks!

[City Ponies]

Go to a horseshow and look what you come back too! Can I have my thread back please!! LOL Continue at will...

I am taking an older lady who is very much like myself, believes in intergrating all forms of training. She is looking to purchase (90% done deal - she's already remnamed her!)the new rescue paint mare I've been working with I posted about a few weeks ago. She was interested in it but can't afford to go herself, so I'm giving her one of my tickets and we can sit and discuss how we can use certain techniques on mare.