My thoroughbred has lost his mind :(

[Pony238]

I have a 9 year old thoroughbred gelding that I use (or used to use) for jumpers and we did a bit of trail riding and dressage. He is full of talent. However, lately, I cannot get him to calm down. He has these bucking fits at random. Literally, at random. It's like he'll look for any excuse to throw himself up in the air, or he'll just do it anyway. I always put him back into work after he has fits so it's not like he's getting away with anything. I stopped taking him out in the woods and only ride him in the ring. When i ride him in the ring, he is balled up, ready to explode, and all i can do is push him forward (so he doesn't go up) but i can't collect him at all. I have tried to lunge him and sometimes he's okay but other days, he bucks and gets away from me and gallops around for a half hour. When he was in serious training, he was still very excited but i was able to handle him but now he's just out of control. he is turned out 24 hours a day and he gets beet pulp and maybe a handful of grain. Really minimal food. He is just explosive and I don't know what to do anymore. He's not mean about it, he's just crazy. I have tried calming supplements and there was no change and I'm considering Ace or Reserpine. HELP.

[Ibex]

Sounds like pain - saddle fit or a chiro issue maybe?

[ThoroughbredFancy]

Check saddle fit, teeth, have a chiro go over him and pull a blood test for Lyme.

[dmj]

has he had any changes in his life recently? New barn etc.?

[CarolinaGirl]

Would also suggest checking for pain and fit of all tack. Maybe have a chiropractor check him out. I would also consider the possibility of ulcers.

[twofatponies]

Agree - when it's a change in behavior, look carefully at the legs, back, mouth, etc. I doubt it's behavioral if it is "random" and sudden like that.

[Riley0522]

Ditto everyone. Have a chiro look at him and get him scoped for ulcers. Ulcers make my TB crazy too...won't collect, strung out, throwing fits over nothing.

[enjoytheride]

It sounds like he used to be in full training and now he isn't? Regular riding by a professional does wonders for keeping a horse doing what it is supposed to be doing. I would suggest putting him back in full training or selling him for a horse that you don't have to keep in training to stay rideable.

[onthebit]

If this were my horse I would:

1. Have a chiro out
2. Have his teeth done
3. Have a saddle fitter out
4. Have a thorough work-up done by a vet

I didn't list these things in any particular order but I would do all of them. Your horse is telling you something hurts, please listen to him.

[suzyq]

You could try omeprazole for a few days and see if that helps or maybe ugard. If he has ulcers you should start to notice a difference.

[goeslikestink]

I have a 9 year old thoroughbred gelding that I use (or used to use) for jumpers and we did a bit of trail riding and dressage. He is full of talent. However, lately, I cannot get him to calm down. He has these bucking fits at random. Literally, at random. It's like he'll look for any excuse to throw himself up in the air, or he'll just do it anyway. I always put him back into work after he has fits so it's not like he's getting away with anything. I stopped taking him out in the woods and only ride him in the ring. When i ride him in the ring, he is balled up, ready to explode, and all i can do is push him forward (so he doesn't go up) but i can't collect him at all. I have tried to lunge him and sometimes he's okay but other days, he bucks and gets away from me and gallops around for a half hour. When he was in serious training, he was still very excited but i was able to handle him but now he's just out of control. he is turned out 24 hours a day and he gets beet pulp and maybe a handful of grain. Really minimal food. He is just explosive and I don't know what to do anymore. He's not mean about it, he's just crazy. I have tried calming supplements and there was no change and I'm considering Ace or Reserpine. HELP.


ditch the food as in the grian - hes hot headed as its food related hes getting food for little or no work and going straight to his bonks -it will take 2 weeks for it to fully come out of his system yet only days to go in,, beat to a tb can be hot food stuffs as its full of engery
engergy is what tbs are they are athletes of the equines lush grass no work or little work and plenty of grub it asking for a time bomb

little tip good quality hay has plenty and all supplements in it so your probaly overlaoding him with out reading the back of the packet of what does what and how much it is in each one

veggie oil is a slow relaseing supplement doesnt hot up a horse is god for joints and coat
then whiles hes off check your saddle doesnt need re flocking as it should be done once a year - as that will send him skywards and cheek his teeth

then when hes clamed down abit take back into work -- if you need more energy you slowly reintroduce his feedstuff but alittle at a time as in trial and error type things

sounds to me as you riding your horse little and often and hes not doing the work warranted for the food hes eating

[joiedevie99]

Start with a visit from the vet. The first thing that comes to mind is kissing spine, but there are quite a few possibilities. A thorough once over should alert the vet to any major issues. Have the teeth checked while you are at it.

[filly78]

Pony238 - I totally know how you are feeling right now... My TB gelding seems to recently have lost his mind as well.

I think I might have an idea why, but I'm not sure what to do. One of our neighbors for the past month or so has been running a LOUD pump for their pool in their backyard which happens to be right next to our ring. I was riding about 2 weeks ago and everything was going ok, but my gelding felt "wiggly", but I didn't think much of it. I kept going and all of a sudden as we were heading towards our neighbor's house, my gelding threw in a quick spin/spook and I fell off :cry:

Ever since the pump has been running, my horse has been nuts. He is turned out 12 hours a day, gets little grain, and is just crazy. I hopped on tonight and he was SO tense, I wasn't comfortable and decided to get off. As I was almost off, he reared up and took off. This is his new thing. When we get off him, he rears and takes off. So far my husband and I have been unable to hang on to him when he does this... Ugh. I am so incredibly frustrated right now. I'm scared to get back on since my fall and I want to get back riding again, but it's tough when my horse is already tense and a ball of energy waiting to explode....

Best of luck to you.....! I will let you know if I find anything that works for my gelding!

[AKB]

We have one like your TB. He is immensely talented but not mentally stable. Unfortunately, he also has multiple physical problems that we did not discover when we had him vetted initially at a big name clinic. A few months after we bought him, we took him to our local vet hospital and found multiple problems. I think that a more mentally balanced horse might deal with the physical ailments, but our hot headed TB struggles with his demons. If he is trail ridden regularly, he is less hot and difficult. My daughter evented him for several years, in his custom fitted saddle. He was great cross country, but dressage was a real problem. Currently, his physical issues are all acting up, and he is not in work.

Hot TBs can be very difficult. After you try lots of turnout, little or no grain, lunging before you ride, and regular riding by you, as well as a professional, you have done everything we tried. We finally concluded that we are not meant to own TBs. Some people are tempermentally suited for TBs. We are Irish Draught/Irish Draught Sport Horse people.

[dwblover]

My six year old OTTB is one of the mellowest guys on the farm. And definitely the most mellow horse I've ever owned. TBs are just sensitive, but not necessarily hot. Definitely check for pain, ulcers, Lyme, etc. Behavior doesn't change without a reason. Also, please make sure the bit is not your culprit. I've spent most of my life with TBs, especially ones from the track. If you want a last ditch suggestion from me, try a hard rubber mullen mouth pelham. You might be in for a nice surprise. But remember to keep the curb rein LIGHT.

[Sister7]

First ditto on getting a thorough workup done to make sure there are no physical issues.

Second, how big is his turnout? Sometimes I think a TB just needs to get a good run and if his turnout isn't big enough for full speed he won't be satisfied.

[lolalola]

I was the one who suggested Pony238 come here for advice. The horse is out 24/7 in a field about 2-3 acres with two other horses - one of which is another horse Pony238 owns whom she got from Ernie Paragallo - and that one is fantastic for being off the track a few months.

We board at the same barn, and there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason for his behavior.

[Pony238]

Hey everyone,
thanks everyone for your responses! i had a chiropractor check him out a little while ago and she found nothing significant. i even do all his stretches. i had my saddle fitted and he does it when he's not wearing tack at all (on a lunge, without even a surcingle) i retired him from trails because he would be bad every time, thinking he could just be ridden in the ring, but now i can't even ride him or lunge him in the ring without an issue. his teeth are in fine shape and it happens even when i have no pressure on his mouth, and he's done it in all kinds of bits (wonder bit, pelham, simple snaffle, even rubber). i work for a big name vet clinic and they have even looked at him, finding nothing that would give reason for this and his blood work always comes back normal (although we never tested for lyme). i started giving him an ulcer treatment when i first got him because he would constantly have these little low-grade colic episodes but it turned out to be summer itch and he was just scratching his belly. it could be ulcers but ulcers wouldn't cause him to flip out if he sees another horse pick up a trot. i really don't think it's pain because he gallops and gallops if he gets away from me, on a lunge or if he throws me and is perfectly sound, and although i'm running behind him screaming and cursing, he looks good doing it. i had a racehorse trainer get on him and he was okay after that but it seemed to come back 10-fold. when i say he was in training, it was me riding him with my trainer, but my trainer is afraid to get on him because she rides professionally and cannot risk the injury. SO FRUSTRATING. i really don't think this is medical. he has had behavioral issues due to an ill-fitting saddle and this is different. he just feels insane. he is, surprisingly, pretty mellow otherwise and he is a good ride, when he's behaving. he's full of talent :( he doesn't get any supplements, just beet pulp and moderate quality pasture.

i don't want to get rid of him just yet. i do love him and i'm all about giving horses a good home, as lolalola said, i just brought home a paragallo horse that i knew for a while and he is just a gentleman. he is 5 and gorgeous and a complete teddy bear who happens to be 17.2

:(

[ThoroughbredFancy]

Since you haven't tested for Lyme I am going to encourage you to as I stated earlier.

I've seen some horses display their symptoms for Lyme disease in a very similar fashion.

[HealingHeart]

Try to put ear muffins on him... perhaps his attention is all over the place and this might focus him a bit back to work. Also, there isn't bugs, biting flies that are bothering him this time of year.... were you ride or near.....

We have alot of wasp/yellow jackets this year., wonder if he got bit and remembers the location.... or was there a bad experience that he can not get passed....

Also, check your tack.... is there any signs of something poking him, girth, saddle pad, bridle etc.

Years ago, a person at our barn, her jumper stopped jumping, just started refusing. Well, everyone try to fix, thought it was the horse, bad behavior, but after a few trainers attempting to get her to jump again, they finally had her checked fully, xrays etc. It was discovered that she had factured her front leg, hair-line..... no lameness yet, but she was smart enough to NOT jump thus either injurying her rider and herself.

[Pony238]

I agree. I just texted one of my vets asking to test for it. it would be nice to be able to narrow it down to something like that, but it wouldn't be nice for him to have lyme.

a friend of mine at my barn has an older tb and she said she couldn't really ride him without him being a lunatic until he was about 15 and he mellowed out. it's a shame because my new tb is so mellow and well behaved and he should be the lunatic!

you win some, you learn some.

[Gideon]

Is your horse turned out on grass?

[shakeytails]

I had a horse that started bucking hard every once in a while for no reason. He was even untrustworthy for the trainer- I put him back in full training and I rode him once a week at most. Sold him. Life is too short to deal with an idiot horse that was trying to hurt me. Looking back though, I wonder if it wasn't some sort of pain issue rather than a screw loose.

[Auventera Two]

it could be ulcers but ulcers wouldn't cause him to flip out if he sees another horse pick up a trot.

Wanna bet?

Do a forum search under my user name and "ulcers" and read till your heart's content.

If a horse is in pain, they are hypersensitive to stimuli and overreact accordingly. Even tiny little insignificant things make them blow up or behave very badly. I've seen my mare throw an all-out hissy fit tantrum because a fly bit her. Treating her for ulcers ratcheted her entire personality down about 6 notches to planet earth. She's still a hot, sensitive mare, but nothing like she was.

Don't ever assume that a horse who is misbehaving is just being a jerk.

[magnolia73]

Maybe retirement is in order for your guy. Or chuck him out for a year then revisit work. Pain does come to mind, but it sounds like you are on that. It could just be a tweak of pain you haven't found yet. How much do you want to put into to looking for the source?

Life is too short to ride nutso horses. And I think we can begin to project our anxiety which they sense and make worse. I'll be honest- once in a blue moon, my TB mare gets out of her mind- maybe once every 3 months. She just gets unglued and feels explosive. I get a good circle or two of walk in and then put her away. The next day, I'll come out, she'll be an angel. If I stay on- I get more anxious and she gets more anxious and it becomes bad.

I guess maybe look at yourself. Is your seat and leg tightening? Are you gripping on the reins and getting tense? The second I feel myself tense up, I sing or start talking to my horse. I focus on relaxing me. It's help me work through more minor tension lately- I stay relaxed, she gets tense, I stay relaxed, then she relaxes.

[Pony238]

he is on moderate quality pasture, same stuff he's been on for years. his diet is mostly, if not completely forage. when i first got him he was skinny and a hard-keeper but he's maintaining himself very well now. just an idiot.

[Riley0522]

Wanna bet?

Do a forum search under my user name and "ulcers" and read till your heart's content.

If a horse is in pain, they are hypersensitive to stimuli and overreact accordingly. Even tiny little insignificant things make them blow up or behave very badly. I've seen my mare throw an all-out hissy fit tantrum because a fly bit her. Treating her for ulcers ratcheted her entire personality down about 6 notches to planet earth. She's still a hot, sensitive mare, but nothing like she was.

Don't ever assume that a horse who is misbehaving is just being a jerk.

Yeah, I missed that. My horse has ulcers and if another horse even walks by him in the ring, it can be the end of the world. One day, they were trotting a lame horse atleast 200ft away OUTSIDE of the ring, and it took all I had to keep him on the ground. Hopefully I will get some answers to my problem soon!

[ThoroughbredFancy]

I am curious as to what you will find.

My TB has been acting out of character for awhile too and we cannot find a darn thing wrong with him health wise. He is 6 though so I don't know if this is his idea of a rebellious stage or what.

[Lady Counselor]

I have a really hot headed, retired TB. Even on low protein/high fiber diet, he was hot, hot, hot. I finally changed him over to Blueseal Carbguard and eliminated all excess sugars. Today, he's a different animal. He gets haystretcher and carbguard, free choice hay and supplemental vitamins. He gained weight, his coat is shiny, and he calmed way down.
Before he would work himself up into a frantic lather in his stall when I started turning horses out, and would run the fenceline, frantic to come in. Now, he still weaves when excited, but he's by and large a gentleman and will stay out all day.
He's a different case than yours. He wasn't in work nor throwing fits. So I would second and third those who say an investigative workup is in order. But, if he checks out OK, changing the feed regimen may be the way to go. :yes:

[OneDaySoon]

Yeah, I missed that. My horse has ulcers and if another horse even walks by him in the ring, it can be the end of the world. One day, they were trotting a lame horse atleast 200ft away OUTSIDE of the ring, and it took all I had to keep him on the ground. Hopefully I will get some answers to my problem soon!

Yup, ulcers can really make them nutty, unpredictable (flight response has no boundaries), and explosive. I really recommend doing one of the ulcer protocols for at least two weeks. I started the year with one of these and you would not know it was the same horse. Worth a solid try before you run to sell him.

[Secretariat2]

Check him for selenium deficiency too. Especially as he only gets a small amount of grain.

[LuvMyTB]

No advice, but a lot of sympathy here. My TB mare spent most of this past spring going completely out of her mind. She was so jumpy/nervous that I felt like she was going to crawl out of her skin. I didn't even have 3 solid gaits--all I could get was this insane tranter where she would pull like a Mack truck--one ride she pulled so hard she tore my shoulder/neck muscles. :no:

Most rides ended up with me either crying or swearing.

With her it ended up being feed-related....my BO had her on 10lbs of TCC per day, at least, despite me telling her it was too much. I finally put my foot down and switched her to SafeChoice and I got my horse back.

Good luck with your guy. I know how frustrating it can be--I hope you find a solution.

[Saidapal]

a friend of mine at my barn has an older tb and she said she couldn't really ride him without him being a lunatic until he was about 15 and he mellowed out. it's a shame because my new tb is so mellow and well behaved and he should be the lunatic!


I took my mare off sweet feed and it did wonders for her personality. You said he's mostly on forage and I've heard Alfafa can make them hot if your feeding any of that. And as much turnout as you can get. Don't worry if he gets sunburned. I would rather be able to ride them than have them be purty.

I also think he's got the ding-a-ling gene, and the only thing that helps that is age, sadly. TB's either have it or they don't. My old mare was 100% TB and she had it, but mellowed and became more confident and sane as she aged. I currently have 2 that are half TB and one who's mother was an appendix QH. One has it and the other 2 don't. Age is mellowing the one who has it so there is hope.

[Pony238]

Check him for selenium deficiency too. Especially as he only gets a small amount of grain.

the other horses in his field would too have a selenium deficiency and they are two very mellow horses, one is my other thoroughbred who is 5 and four months off the track and you couldn't get him to act like a jerk if you tried.

[Pony238]

I took my mare off sweet feed and it did wonders for her personality. You said he's mostly on forage and I've heard Alfafa can make them hot if your feeding any of that. And as much turnout as you can get. Don't worry if he gets sunburned. I would rather be able to ride them than have them be purty.

He doesn't get any alfalfa or more than maybe a handful of grain on top of a huge pile of beet pulp soaked in water. i probably can't feed him any less. he is out 24 hours a day. i don't remember the last time he was in a stall.

[Secretariat2]

the other horses in his field would too have a selenium deficiency and they are two very mellow horses, one is my other thoroughbred who is 5 and four months off the track and you couldn't get him to act like a jerk if you tried.

Not necessarily. I know of a horse that ended up with a selenium deficiency and he was turned out with other horses and on the same feed. This horse started acting out for no apparent reason too. He was tested, they found the deficiency and put him on a supplement. He's back to being a good boy.

You could also try giving him some bute the evening before and the day of a ride. If he behaves better with the bute, you likely have a pain issue. If he is still unruly, you likely have a training issue.

How are his ground manners?

[FatPalomino]

My Palomino will start bucking when he's ouchy, but before he's head bobbing lame. At first I was perplexed, as he'd never done such a thing in his whole life. Now, I get off, hoof test him, and thank him for letting me know before he got really sore. However, unlike your horse, he's not willing to go forward and defiantly not pulling the lunge line out of my hands! He's just saying "Hey. Ouch, I don't want to go forward again. Stop and look." Throw a set of hoof testers on your horse for fun, but, I'd be surprised if you get anything.

The saddle fit bucking issues I've seen are most obvious during transitions (i.e. trot to canter).

Is it getting cold there? It just got quite cold here, and our (normally hot) TB is a total lunatic. He's sound, feels great, and the cold weather makes him feel evenbetter ;)

I'd be wary of turning him out for a few weeks and then trying to ride him again. Hot TB's can come in from the field even hotter.

Can you free lunge him in an arena, get him dog tired, and then get on him?

Have you tried keeping him in small circles, changing direction all the time, asking for lateral work, over ground poles, lots of half halts, keeping his mind really really busy (i.e. you're doing something every stride)? That's the only way I ride crazy TB's any more, because I am a wussy now ;)

My friend rides racehorses in Monmouth Cty, and I went with her to a training barn with her. Rank young horse was given either a strong dose of ace. Still tried to buck her off. In the shed row. :( If he were mine, after everything else (including the bute trial), I would try ace or something stronger.

There's a very nice TB mare floating somewhere around central NJ named Sally. She was a very nice 3' horse. She was pretty easy to ride, nice to handle on the ground. She was maybe 16 years old when this occurred. But, without warning, she had bucking explosions usually few and far between. She was at a BNT and tremendously improved. Top vet looked at all the horses weekly, this one never had any problems. I saw her launch a rider after about 45 minutes of riding. Rider got back on, but had torn her ACL and couldn't keep going. Very sadly, I was the only other rider not on a horse. We took her back to the barn, stuck her in the round pen until we thought we got it all out of her, and I went back up to the ring to get on her. 45 minutes later, she's being an angel and is obviously tired, but explodes without warning when we went on a trot along the long side. Luckily I kept her straight and grabbed her thick mane and rode it out. Then she was fine again, like nothing ever happened. She was just a lunatic, even after all that work. These TB's are built with a big go button and a little mind sometimes. Sally was sold to someone, and eventually made her way back to central NJ. She did well at horse shows, and was a good horse for someone to learn on. But, you can get hurt with these sorts.

Be careful. And good luck ;)

[Auventera Two]

he is on moderate quality pasture, same stuff he's been on for years. his diet is mostly, if not completely forage. when i first got him he was skinny and a hard-keeper but he's maintaining himself very well now. just an idiot.

...and although i'm running behind him screaming and cursing...

Now hang on there tonto.

First of all, it seems like you have a really bad attitude about this horse's problem. Do you want to actually HELP your poor horse or not? When a horse gets loose on the longe, your answer is to run behind him screaming and cursing? Seriously? :confused:

Then you say you're working with a trainer who is afraid to get on him because she can't get hurt......what the hell kind of trainer are you working with anyway? A trainer should be capable of sorting out the horse's issues - medical, or behavioral - and then developing an appropriate work program to bring the horse to a place where he can be safely ridden. They don't just holler hail mary and swing a leg over. They develop an effective ground training program that builds the horses cues and confidence in a series of steps so that when the rider finally does mount up, there is reasonable chance that the horse will indeed behave.

And don't assume your horse has no nutritional deficiencies because the other horses in the field seem mellow. Get the horse to the vet and have blood tests performed. ONE of my horses had a selenium deficiency and the other two did not. Each body utilizes different levels of vitamins and minerals based on activity level, and individual genetics. A horse who is as hot as your TB seems to be uses up more nutrients than a sedate ho-hum plug who never gets excited about anything. A higher metabolism = higher nutrient demands.

You have a SERIOUS PROBLEM going on here, and you owe it to your horse and yourself to get to the bottom of it. Please don't post that the horse is just an idiot. Either you want to help him, or you don't, and if you don't, so which is it?

I have an increasingly slim tolerance for people who claim their horse is just stupid, a twit, a jerk, an ass......sometimes they DO just misbehave, or really push the limits, and when they do, they need a hard and fast reprimand. But the issues you describe seem to be something a lot deeper and more complicated. It sounds like a horse who is in pain, or has some other medical or mental type of issue going on.

[FatPalomino]

FWIW, if and when a horse pulls the lunge line out of my hands and goes running, I first
scream "loose horse" then I curse at the rope burns on my hands.

[edit] This girl works for a big name vet, who has looked the horse over, and had blood test, like you request!

I know the area the OP is in. It's gleaming with amazing, BNTs on every corner. I don't know who her trainer is, but I'm certainly not going to judge the trainer for not getting on a horse. I'd bet the OP is a very talented rider, since she's bringing along young OTTB's and has ridden under trainers in that area.

Pony238- Just ignore some of the people who offer no valid suggestions. Hang in there, you're obviously trying. And give the "Standalusian" a kiss from me :)

[Auventera Two]

I did not judge the trainer for "not getting on a horse." Did you even read what I said? I said that any trainer worth their salt should be able to help the OP sort out the issues, and then develop a plan that outlines how they are going to get this horse from crazy, hot, and dangerous to sane and rideable. I never suggested the trainer just go out and hop on. In fact, I said precisely the OPPOSITE, if you'd care to read the post again.

Getting to the bottom of the problem, whether mental or physical before screaming at the horse and saying he's an idiot, is not a valid suggestion? Hmmm. Ok. Carry on.

[busterwells]

Now hang on there tonto.

First of all, it seems like you have a really bad attitude about this horse's problem. Do you want to actually HELP your poor horse or not? When a horse gets loose on the longe, your answer is to run behind him screaming and cursing? Seriously? :confused:

Then you say you're working with a trainer who is afraid to get on him because she can't get hurt......what the hell kind of trainer are you working with anyway? A trainer should be capable of sorting out the horse's issues - medical, or behavioral - and then developing an appropriate work program to bring the horse to a place where he can be safely ridden. They don't just holler hail mary and swing a leg over. They develop an effective ground training program that builds the horses cues and confidence in a series of steps so that when the rider finally does mount up, there is reasonable chance that the horse will indeed behave.

And don't assume your horse has no nutritional deficiencies because the other horses in the field seem mellow. Get the horse to the vet and have blood tests performed. ONE of my horses had a selenium deficiency and the other two did not. Each body utilizes different levels of vitamins and minerals based on activity level, and individual genetics. A horse who is as hot as your TB seems to be uses up more nutrients than a sedate ho-hum plug who never gets excited about anything. A higher metabolism = higher nutrient demands.

You have a SERIOUS PROBLEM going on here, and you owe it to your horse and yourself to get to the bottom of it. Please don't post that the horse is just an idiot. Either you want to help him, or you don't, and if you don't, so which is it?

I have an increasingly slim tolerance for people who claim their horse is just stupid, a twit, a jerk, an ass......sometimes they DO just misbehave, or really push the limits, and when they do, they need a hard and fast reprimand. But the issues you describe seem to be something a lot deeper and more complicated. It sounds like a horse who is in pain, or has some other medical or mental type of issue going on.

Thank you for being on this site and being so informative. You have helped me through a couple of horse issues and totally respect your opinion. Just had to say that, some people just really surprise me by their comments.

[ex-racer owner]

I absolutely agree to getting a thorough work up done on the horse. Yes, horses do metabolize nutrients differently. I had my vet pull bloodwork on my OTTB, due to weightloss, and she told me that his iron level was low "for a TB", and that some breeds typically have higher/lower values for different things, on average, than others.

I have been in your shoes! I wanted to blame my horse's increasing "jerkyness" on him just being a jerk, this including random bucking, unwillingness to work, and some rearing, prancing, etc. I am still ashamed that it took me so long to figure out that he was IN PAIN from his hocks being arthritic, and that was the cause of the misbehavior :(. Once we got that problem sorted out, I found out that my horse is pretty awesome and actually wants to please me. I don't know what exactly is wrong with your horse, but I would advise more extensive testing.

I don't know if you have tried this yet either, but Quiessance also worked wonders for us. I know that they seem to market it more towards metabolic horses, but the magnesium is good for relaxing horses and calming them, as well as helping with tensebacked horses. I switched from a different calming supp. and had results in one day, though I'm sure that most horses don't have that extreme improvement that fast (it was really noticable to everyone; some asked if he was sick becasue he wasn't acting up like his normal self). I did the Quiessance first and had good results until the "bad" behavior starting coming back out, about 2 years later. That's when I had the vet out for lameness exam and discovered the hock issue.

Please don't get so down on the horse. There is a chance that he is just a jerk, but I have found that usually those "bad" horses have a reason for being bad- they hurt or don't feel well. Please follow up with more testing before writing him off....

[lolalola]

The horse was running loose around the farm with a lunge line attached. None of you would do a little screaming and cursing if that happened? He could have run out into the road. Please ! Also, I don't believe this part of the country has a problem with selenium deficiency.
She is referring to a well-known eventing trainer. Not exactly a sport for sissies. The trainer thought she might get hurt riding the horse when he went nutso. There is no rhyme or reason to his outbursts, and Pony238 has investigated a lot of possibilities. She's planning to have him scoped this weekend. She works for one of the foremost equine vets in the country, a name you would all recognize. Geez, some people are more interested in character assassination than anything constructive. I've been around horses for more than 40 years, and there are a few of them, like some people, who are just a PITA or idiots.

[Hampton Bay]

I would second the suggestion for a Mg supplement if you have not yet tried that. It makes a HUGE difference in my mare's brain and muscles. Without it she has a heck of a time relaxing to do anything, probably because those tight muscles make her bodysore.

We tried Quiessence with her, but it did nothing. I switched her to epsom salts (1/4 cup per day, shes about 1200lb) and the difference was night and day. Within about 5 days I finally got her out of the rafters and back down to earth.

And I do agree that some of them are just nuts, but I think those are few and far between. Most of them probably have something physically wrong and no one can find it.

[Pony238]

Now hang on there tonto.

First of all, it seems like you have a really bad attitude about this horse's problem. Do you want to actually HELP your poor horse or not? When a horse gets loose on the longe, your answer is to run behind him screaming and cursing? Seriously? :confused:

Then you say you're working with a trainer who is afraid to get on him because she can't get hurt......what the hell kind of trainer are you working with anyway? A trainer should be capable of sorting out the horse's issues - medical, or behavioral - and then developing an appropriate work program to bring the horse to a place where he can be safely ridden. They don't just holler hail mary and swing a leg over. They develop an effective ground training program that builds the horses cues and confidence in a series of steps so that when the rider finally does mount up, there is reasonable chance that the horse will indeed behave.

And don't assume your horse has no nutritional deficiencies because the other horses in the field seem mellow. Get the horse to the vet and have blood tests performed. ONE of my horses had a selenium deficiency and the other two did not. Each body utilizes different levels of vitamins and minerals based on activity level, and individual genetics. A horse who is as hot as your TB seems to be uses up more nutrients than a sedate ho-hum plug who never gets excited about anything. A higher metabolism = higher nutrient demands.

You have a SERIOUS PROBLEM going on here, and you owe it to your horse and yourself to get to the bottom of it. Please don't post that the horse is just an idiot. Either you want to help him, or you don't, and if you don't, so which is it?

I have an increasingly slim tolerance for people who claim their horse is just stupid, a twit, a jerk, an ass......sometimes they DO just misbehave, or really push the limits, and when they do, they need a hard and fast reprimand. But the issues you describe seem to be something a lot deeper and more complicated. It sounds like a horse who is in pain, or has some other medical or mental type of issue going on.

I'm gonna go through this bit by bit. i have a bad attitude towards him because he is a beautiful horse and he has put me in danger too many times and his talent is wasting away. i have done a lot to get to the bottom of this. please, i work for one of the top equine surgeons in the nation, i have resources, and i came here as a very last resort.

My trainer is a four star event rider and if you've ever seen my horse buck (which you have not) AND you ride professionally, you wouldn't get on him either. i don't blame her AT ALL and she is probably the best trainer i've ever had. pretty smart not to get on him when the bulk of her income is due to being a professional athlete.

Don't assume that blood tests are an accurate way to diagnose a deficiency. many minerals are not easily measured from a blood test and some vitamins are similar.

you don't know or work with my horse. he is a lot less smart than my other two and most horses i have ever worked with. he is talented and deals well with training cues, but on the whole, he's pretty dumb. i'm sorry if you have little tolerance for people who say their horse is an idiot.

if i didn't want to help him, i would have given him back to the rescue foundation i got him from. but clearly, that is not the case.

i have exhausted many many diagnostic tools for pain. but thanks for passing judgement instead of offering advice or support.

[Pony238]

when he got lose in the arena i was very calm in trying to get him back but when he opened the gate and began to gallop around our 80 acre farm, for the umpteenth time, my response was valid, thanks.

i have tried a calming supplements and they do nothing for him.

i'm gonna have to defend myself for the right to call my horse an idiot. even if he was not behaving this way and performing to his best ability like he sometimes does, i'd call him an idiot. because he's not smart. please, it's a term of endearment between us. just like how i used to call my 13.0 hand pony a PONY because he used to compete against full sized horses. it's a joke.

[FatPalomino]

Pony238-
Just ignore those that keep suggesting the things you've tried. Don't feel you need to defend yourself against the ones that won't listen.

You're in a tough situation and have done a lot more than many other people would do.

If you have an option to put him to pasture, it would probably be the safest thing for you. The girl I saw tossed off a similar horse had surgery and never really rode again, although she is still involved with racehorses.

Very glad you have Paragallo horse, he's very lucky to have you. I hope you have a blast with him. Hang in there.

(for what it's worth, Quissence will only help if there is a MG deficiency. I've tried it and seen no difference).

[Pony238]

Thank you. My EP horse is the most amazing creature. gorgeous and smart and just wonderful to work with. he doesn't know much but he is so willing and not the crazy off-the-track you'd expect. just needs a bit of weight from coming off the track and his open field and love from his mommy :)

[Hampton Bay]

Of course a Mg supp will only help for a Mg deficiency. But for those who have one, it helps a ton. And the source of the Mg does matter, so if you have only tried calming supps with one type of Mg, you might try another. Won't hurt.

If you cannot find something wrong with him, and you cannot afford to keep a pasture ornament, putting him down might be the kindest option. Not so much to the horse, but to anyone who might get the idea that they can fix him.

[OverandOnward]

...
If you cannot find something wrong with him, and you cannot afford to keep a pasture ornament, putting him down might be the kindest option. Not so much to the horse, but to anyone who might get the idea that they can fix him.
Sometimes euthanasia of an unsafe horse might be the answer, particularly if it can be established that the cause is almost certainly a medical condition and not correctable. But I hope no one assumes that no one else could possibly do better with a training issue. There aren't any riders so good that they are the best option for every horse on the planet. I hope owners keep a door open that someone else, well-qualified and skilled, might simply be a better match before putting a horse down for behavior. Of course a seller must take the responsibility full disclosure and saying 'no' to an interested potential buyer or free giveaway if it clearly is not the right match.

[Pony238]

thanks, but i'm not euthanizing him. keeping him as a pasture ornament would be cheaper than riding him and using him for competitions and training so that certainly isn't the issue. and like i said, when he's good, and not throwing fits, he's an amazing horse to ride. this is why i want to figure things out. he deserves more than just to sit in a field. i have no issues riding him when he's not throwing fits and i've had him for over 3 years and we've had plenty of time to bond.

[ljc]

First of all, I totally empathize you. I own a now 21-year-old OTTB who was friggin' INSANE for the first two years I owned him (I got him when he was 5). Nothing helped - not turnout, not lunging, not riding him 2 or 3 times a day, nothing. I couldn't get him to consistently take that "deep breath" that meant he was relaxed. I'd have occasional moments but they were few and far between.

But was he ever talented!!! The first time I showed him, we won our first class. And our second. And our third. And so forth. He came into his own at horse shows (since he was a hunter, that was rather amazing.)

Back in those "dark ages" there weren't quite as many supplements around and certainly not as many feed options as we have. Some of us just didn't know any better! My trainer became increasingly nervous with him and it was a trainwreck ready to happen.

He ended up tearing two tendons (guess how -- racing around a turnout paddock) and I gave him two years off for rest and rehab. And for whatever reason, he came back a different horse. I think he just needed time to grow up. I switched trainers at that point, to someone who didn't sweat the little things, and Benjamin blossomed. I actually used an animal psychic during that time who said my horse was over-stimulated (ya think?) and couldn't concentrate. When he came back, we started stuffing his ears with cotton and that made a huge difference.

Fast forward - I showed him for another ten years and had a wonderful partner all that time. He was still the ONLY horse being lunged on the final day of a five-day show. And the ONLY horse who had to be lunged twice if I showed late in the afternoon or in the early evening!

And at age 21, he's still a handful! He still has to be lunged after he gets a day off. I still have to stuff his ears.

My point is, everyone thought I was insane to stick with Benjamin. But he was my one chance at the big time and I believed in him. He and I proved everyone wrong!

(I now have a young TB/Percheron cross who makes Benjamin's antics look moderate. Thankfully, Benjamin didn't have a nasty buck in him; this guy does. I've had great success with magnesium (which I know you said didn't help). I had to try different forms of it; quiessence worked for him).

Good luck. If you get discouraged, PM me. We TB owners have to stick together.

[goeslikestink]

He doesn't get any alfalfa or more than maybe a handful of grain on top of a huge pile of beet pulp soaked in water. i probably can't feed him any less. he is out 24 hours a day. i don't remember the last time he was in a stall.

i say again its food related hes getting far to much for no work or very little work
beat pulp is a high energy feedstuffs so knock all grian and beat on the head for two weeks

if hes out and o good grazzing and being feed then hes going to be a who arrrh henry
as your feeding him loads for no work to warrant the feed being given- so stop fueling the fire and do more work its not going to kill him or strave him just to have hay for a while
when in or working

[ThoroughbredFancy]

It's funny how I can related to these "crazy" TB stories with my very own TB. He was such a calm guy until age 6 and he seemed to wake up and I am hoping he goes back to sleep in a few years. :lol:

For the last month or so he's been out of work and just doing some occasional ground work, lunging or long lining. I have an injury I am rehabbing at the moment so I can only do so much. However it might be helping us to bond through different exercises. Perhaps you could try that?

We do ground work, lunging, long-lining/ground driving and sometimes we just go for hand walks on the trail.

I haven't been able to figure out what lit the fire under his bum this past year and it is frustrating with those horses who display such talent at times.

[manyspots]

I just wanted to chime in, not because I think it will help, but because I have been where you are. I have posted quite a bit on here (including one lengthly thread about feed changes and sensitive horses) and have collected some insight, but it seriously is trial and error.

My gelding is like yours to a T. Seriously, he jumped a fence because he saw a mattress 300' away. Apparently he thought it could eat horses. He spent years of his life working himself into a state of instantaneous anxiety with no apparent trigger. He would shake uncontrollably and RUN... he was flight to the extreme. He was also a bucker and rearer for a period of time under saddle. Funny enough, as his demeanor got worse, he got better under saddle. Go figure.

Anyway, calming supps did NOTHING for this guy. What I finally figured out was most likely allegeries. I did not get him tested, but did discover he is a basket case on alfalfa and soy.

I also worked with a chiro who is a veterinarian trained in acupunture and traditional chinese medicine (TCM). She worked with my gelding (who had some minor issues in the hind end, nothing earth shattering), did acupunture and put him on a chinese herb blend which quite literally changed his life.

I can now ride him without lunging him. He is spooky, but controlled. As in, jump to the side or wheel around and stop... no more running away. Things that used to bother him, he sleeps through. He will actually doze now. Instead of being a basketcase 24/7 he is a basketcase every other day for 5 minutes :lol:. It's a dramatic change. I had done it all, but honestly I think time, patience, food, and a very calm demeanor on my part pulled him through this far!!!! I know some people think acupunture is a waste of time, but you may want to check it out (especially if you can find one who is trained in TCM).

Good luck.... and hugs!

[Auventera Two]

If you've tried EVERYTHING, and you have at your disposal the BEST surgeons, veterinarians and trainers, then why are you asking for help on a bulletin board? Just put the horse down and be done with it! Or give him away to someone who can figure out what's wrong with him.

You've already concluded he's a jerk, and an idiot. So what else is there to discuss? :confused:

And NO, I don't run around screaming and cussing if a horse gets loose while longing. Good lord, what is THAT supposed to do? Help the situation? All you can do is stay calm, ask for help, and try to entice the horse into stopping, or direct him into a safe area until he can be stopped. Running behind him screaming and cussing is about as childish and stupid as it gets.

And please point out where I said your trainer is useless because she won't ride the horse? Again, I did not say that. I said that a trainer should not be just telling you the horse is crazy - tough luck sweetheart. The trainer should be guiding you and developing a plan as to how to get this horse under control ON THE GROUND before riding comes into the equation. That's what trainers do. They TRAIN. If her training only involves RIDING, then find a different trainer.

Sorry but I'm the owner a very hot and reactive horse who has medical issues. She has scared me before with her antics when she was at her worst. I've been instructed to sell her, put her on the meat truck, ride the crap out of her until she's ready to drop, get a new trainer, longe her for 30 minutes before you ride, give her ace, you name it. But the problem was MEDICAL. Sure, I got frustrated and sometimes I didn't heed her signals, but all along, I thought "something went wrong here." Either my riding, my training, or this horse is in pain and I just have to figure it out.

On one hand you say your horse is just an idiot. Then in the next paragraph you say he's wonderful and sweet and just needs loving from his mommy. So what is it? You have me thoroughly confused.

I've been exactly where you are, and it SUCKS. But trust me honey, it sucks a whole lot more for your poor animal. I have very thin patience for people who call their horse an idiot because he's clearly suffering from something.

[Auventera Two]

thanks, but i'm not euthanizing him. keeping him as a pasture ornament would be cheaper than riding him and using him for competitions and training so that certainly isn't the issue. and like i said, when he's good, and not throwing fits, he's an amazing horse to ride. this is why i want to figure things out. he deserves more than just to sit in a field. i have no issues riding him when he's not throwing fits and i've had him for over 3 years and we've had plenty of time to bond.

If you REALLY want to figure things out, then what exactly have you done so far? Gastroscope, radiographs, ultrasound, blood work, MRI, etc? Because that's the platform I would start from.

Another thing - you say he gets no supplements, only a handfull of grain, beet pulp, and pasture. Unless you've had the pasture analyzed you have no idea what it's missing from his diet. He may be deficient in certain amino acids, potassium, magnesium, etc. Healthy brain function depends on a WELL balanced diet. Typically pastures at boarding barns are over-grazed, over-stressed, and seriously lacking in nutrients. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the horse doesn't have one, or more deficiencies in the diet that is prohibiting healthy cognitive function. You might have nerve endings misfiring.

About a decade ago, I had a severe agression problem pop up in one of my dogs. #1 on the list with the animal behaviorst was diet. Analyze it, and change it. It was made clear to me that healthy cognitive function cannot occur whent he diet is bad.

[magnolia73]

I don't think the OP is "hating" the horse. She thinks he is a bit slow/stupid. Some horses are a bit not so sharp. My old barn- there was a mare that was dumb as a doorknob. It happens. Just like with people.

I get the impression that the OP is doing her best. Sometimes, the money isn't around to do all the diagnostics in the world. Sometimes horses ARE bad because of how they are ridden. Get on my horse, get in her face and see how quickly she goes nuts. It isn't her diet or her teeth or pain. Sometimes horses ARE bad to get out of work. Sometimes they need to be told bucking is not acceptable by someone with the ability to 10 rounds.

Sometimes it is pain or diet- and great if that is fixable. And if not fixable- a nice retirement is in order. And CERTAINLY should be the first point of investigation. But frankly, they work for us and sometimes the hammer needs to be laid down. It's probably impossible to rule out every source of deficiency or ache. So you run the risk.... but....

My thought- rule out as much physical as possible, then send him to a good cowboy (reputable). I've seen that make a difference on more than one horse including a TB who was a bit slow in the brain, bucked, reared, went through jumps, would fling himself on the ground and had no sense of preservation. Cowboy put the horse's butt to work. Horse came back ready to please.

Or try something in left field- maybe Parelli or riding more like a hunter or western.

[Oldenburg Mom]

Please look for pain, Pony.

I have gone through people telling me I should put my mare down because she "wanted to hurt people" This WAS a very valuable horse, a wonderful, super talented girl, exceptional bloodlines ... I went to some extraordinarily well-known vets.

The diagnosis finally came in ... she has a fractured pelvis—and has had for *years*.

I learned the hard way... 99.9% of horses that have behaviour problems have *some* sort of physical problem, at least that's what I think.

Here's the whole thread (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=222884)... see if anything sounds familiar.

[HealingHeart]

Just Wondering,did the issues start when the new horse arrive or when you started working with the new horse? Horses can get attached too... just a thought

Try to put ear muffins on him... perhaps his attention is all over the place and this might focus him a bit back to work. Also, there isn't bugs, biting flies that are bothering him this time of year.... were you ride or near.....

We have alot of wasp/yellow jackets this year., wonder if he got bit and remembers the location.... or was there a bad experience that he can not get passed....

Also, check your tack.... is there any signs of something poking him, girth, saddle pad, bridle etc.

Years ago, a person at our barn, her jumper stopped jumping, just started refusing. Well, everyone try to fix, thought it was the horse, bad behavior, but after a few trainers attempting to get her to jump again, they finally had her checked fully, xrays etc. It was discovered that she had factured her front leg, hair-line..... no lameness yet, but she was smart enough to NOT jump thus either injurying her rider and herself.

[Ambrey]

Have you always had him on beet pulp? Could you try something else to add calories instead?

I know BP is supposed to be "cool calories," but sometimes trying something different will yield surprising results.

[lolalola]

We are also lucky enough at our barn to have one of the top people in equine nutrition boarding there. She's a professor at a major university and lectures all over the world. The pasture has been analyzed and it's fine.

[Pony238]

his behavior has been around long before the new guy showed up :) and i have another horse that he is fully aware of

things he is also aware of: butterflies, grass, and the best places to roll.

[stoicfish]

Sorry about your boy.
If you cannot find a medical reason, I like the idea of turning him out for like six months. Then start right at the bottom and work up, the very basics. Take time to reintroduce everything and figure out why he has lost trust in the process, and get his trust back. Not a easy solution, but maybe a rewarding one..
Just a suggestion.

[2boys]

It is possible that your riding style isn't a good match for him. This would include your trainer's style too, obviously. He may have just had enough... This would not be the first time that a horse tolerated a certain style for a while, then just blows his top. I hope you do not that this personally, because you clearly have had success with other horses. It is certainly a possibility though, that this boy-for whatever reason-is burnt out with your "way".

[Pony238]

i had another trainer out to ride him and he told me i needed to be strict with him. before when i rode, i guess i was riding with the mentality of "if i'm nice to him, he'll be nice to me" but that certainly didn't work. i started riding more firmly and he was okay for a little while but nothing dramatic. when i started working with this new trainer, it was magicalllllll and my horse really learned a lot and so did i. but his explosive fits still occurred (pointing me to pain) so i had a chiro out and had my saddle fitted and all that jazz. i have tried a lot of different styles with him to see what "makes him tick" and sometimes he's perfectly fine, and other time, he is not. even when lunging he sometimes explodes.

i try to mix up my training a lot with my horses. i like to do ring work, i like to work on a lunge, i like nice quiet trails, and i like to gallop in our open fields. not only do i find working in a ring 100% of the time to be pretty boring, but i don't want my horses to get bored or sour. when i jump him or do what i call "pseudo-dressage" and he's behaving, we are literally, like one.

[2boys]

I was thinking more of riding style/techniques. I have no idea how you ride, but I do know that I have seen some horses behave differently when ridden/handled by different people. I think to try something less than ten times over a few weeks, is probably not enough time to allow the horse to really modify his behavior. For example, some horses tolerate being ridden in a tight frame much better than others. I have seen some develop personalities that display "naughtiness" like being spooky, "stupid", or temperamental after being ridden hard like this for a few years. Then they get into a different work program and have a whole new attitude/personality. Not saying this is you, just giving another perspective and something for you to think about, which is what this board is so great for. How about working with your newer guy for a few months, and giving this guy some time off?

[kcmel]

Kissing spines? I would have his back x-rayed. Even if the chiro couldn't find anything, it's possible he has intermittent pain.

[ProzacPuppy]

My TB jumper went bonkers after we moved him into a BNTs barn as he was very talented and we wanted to do bigger shows.

I agree with everyone that first look for physical problems but also check environmental issues.

My horse acted like he was trying to get out of his own skin sometimes. He was shivery, unreliable (bucking, spinning) when under saddle, danced in the crossties when being saddled etc.

Ultimately we figured out a number of things that might have been to blame- starting with sweet feed and alfalfa. He cannot handle ANY sweet feed - even a handful sets him off and alfalfa also makes him hotter.

This BNT also tried the "make him" route with my "free spirit" jumper which made the horse angry, mean and crazy. (We always let him "do his thing" even letting him spin in circles while waiting for the buzzer to sound in the arena. He was all business when it mattered. But the BNT refused to accept such behavior in his barn).

We put my 8 yr old horse on Senior feed and hay, left that trainer for a more "hands off" trainer and horse's mind returned to quirky but normal.

We also knew a person with a horse that suddenly started acting up under saddle. Turned out the horse had internal melanomas and the pain was the problem.

[Auventera Two]

Great post PP. That's a perfect example of why it is just not ever acceptable to declare the horse is an idiot. I don't believe that horses generally just "be idiots" because they think its fun. Horses are herd animals that survived for centuries by getting along, going with the herd, submitting to leadership, and following herd rules. Sure, rogue crazy she-bats do exist, but I think they're extremely, extremely rare.

We do a lot of unnatural things to horses, and they put up with a LOT from humans and our demands. I think they take it as long as they can, and then they have to act out to tell us something is wrong.

[FatPalomino]

I don't believe that horses generally just "be idiots" because they think its fun.
Well then start by leading by example, otherwise, your proposition is false as the much more intelligent species, the human, seems to do this quite often.

Horses are herd animals that survived for centuries by getting along, going with the herd, submitting to leadership, and following herd rules.

Herd rules consisted of starving to death, stallions killing stallions to be the "leader", bachelor stallions leaving the herd to wander aimlessly to start their own ''camp" (again, by beating the crap out of another stud and stealing his mares), stallions killing babies born with any sort of suspected problem....
After being captured as a only a 4 y.o., my "wild stallion" lost part of his ear and has more scars from fighting than a bull after a bull fight.

Sure, rogue crazy she-bats do exist, but I think they're extremely, extremely rare.
So, idiots horses DO exist, then.

We do a lot of unnatural things to horses, and they put up with a LOT from humans and our demands.
But we also fed them, don't let them kill each other, and lead them to water every day.
We've doubled their life span just by doing this.
Most horses agree this is a pretty good trade off.
But, some are idiots and just don't understand how good they have it.

[Green Acres]

A2-
If you only know the barn you were criticizing, and the people involved, you'd realize who the idiot is.

So there is no chance with this barn, people involved that the horse has some pain or deficiency in his diet? All the bases have been covered and there is absolutely no doubt in your mind that there is nothing wrong with this horse.

Wow, maybe my horse when he bucks and acts silly is just an 'idiot'. NOT!

[Moderator 1]

We've removed a couple of posts. Please avoid the off-topic, personal commentary--from both sides--and keep the thread focused on helping the OP.

Thanks,
Mod 1

[FatPalomino]

Great post PP. That's a perfect example of why it is just not ever acceptable to declare the horse is an idiot.
Found on another thread.
My gelding did that once [got into grain bags] tho not sure how much he got. Barn was closed up for the cold night and he got out of his stall. The O'Connors were doing a clinic there and there were feed bags and hay outside their horses' stalls.

My idiot proceeded to eat the feed and the alfalfa.

My trainer was so mad that she refused to do anything - just said it would serve him right (he drove her nuts with his antics). Daughter actually rode him that day and he never seemed to be bothered by the extra food.

[ThoroughbredFancy]

I am still curious about the results of a Lyme test.


Also, I wonder if he has an allergy to something..

[Green Acres]

I am still curious about the results of a Lyme test.


Also, I wonder if he has an allergy to something..

Good question. My horse shies, bucks and acts naughty when his allergies are bothering him.

[SFrost]

I've been reading this thread with interest. My horse acting like a total fool for about a year when I first moved him to a new state. I realize that he had to adjust and settle in. However, a year was a bit much. I looked for a LONG time for the reason. Finally, someone suggested ulcers. I didn't have to money to have him scoped at the time so I put him on Smartgut. Guess what? His behavior was MUCH better. It was day and night. I think it was a combination of time and the Smartgut that helped.

That said, I do think that some horses are just idiots. I trained one OTTB that was a sweet guy but he wasn't the brightest. Loved him to death, but just not too smart.

If there is no medical reason I think that training should be brought back to square one and worked back up. Sometimes it is not a medical think but a hole in training.

[Pony238]

okay everyone stop arguing about calling horses idiots and listen.

first of all, i call him an idiot because he acts like one, but that does NOT mean that he is acting a FOOL because he is not in pain and is just stupid. let's keep remind ourselves of that please.

second of all, had him scoped for ulcers today and his stomach is a TEXTBOOK example of what you would see under "normal" "healthy" "ulcer free" so IT IS NOT ULCERS. i saw it myself.

third of all, the whole goal is to try to narrow down the list of possible PAIN RELATED issues so that I can link this behavior to something tangible, like, a sore back or allergies or whatever before i decide he's just a crazy boy. not only is that a valid method, but my big name vet boss has agreed that it is the best way for me to tackle this issue.

fourth of all, I DO NOT GIVE HIM SWEET FEED in any amount that would make him hot. LITERALLY gets a handful on top of beet pulp. he used to get 8 cans a day when he couldn't hold his weight and he wasn't as much of a lunatic then.

thank you.

[Green Acres]

okay everyone stop arguing about calling horses idiots and listen.

first of all, i call him an idiot because he acts like one, but that does NOT mean that he is acting a FOOL because he is not in pain and is just stupid. let's keep remind ourselves of that please.

second of all, had him scoped for ulcers today and his stomach is a TEXTBOOK example of what you would see under "normal" "healthy" "ulcer free" so IT IS NOT ULCERS. i saw it myself.

third of all, the whole goal is to try to narrow down the list of possible PAIN RELATED issues so that I can link this behavior to something tangible, like, a sore back or allergies or whatever before i decide he's just a crazy boy. not only is that a valid method, but my big name vet boss has agreed that it is the best way for me to tackle this issue.

fourth of all, I DO NOT GIVE HIM SWEET FEED in any amount that would make him hot. LITERALLY gets a handful on top of beet pulp. he used to get 8 cans a day when he couldn't hold his weight and he wasn't as much of a lunatic then.

thank you.

Has a Lyme test been done yet? (I haven't read the whole thread but so excuse me if Lyme test came back negative).

I have heard some horses getting 'high' on beet pulp. Could that be it. I know he's been on BP for a long time...but it could be adversly affecting him now.

Sore back / pelvic problem could be a possibility as well.

[Donkey]

(Didn't read the whole thread so sorry if this has already been discussed)

Has your vet watched you ride him as well as on the lunge? Riding will often bring something out that otherwise isn't noticeable.

Can you afford to spend money on diagnostics like a bone scan? It might be the cheapest place to start to rule out any arthritic pain than randomly taking x-rays on a hunch (as they add up $$$$ very quickly).

[Pony238]

No lyme test.

if i bring him to my clinic, i get a discount for services so it's not too bad. i just have to decide with my boss what we should focus on since he's not outwardly lame, he's just crazy.

[FatPalomino]

If I was bored and had money burning a hole in my pocket, I'd radiograph/ultrasound/MRI things like feet, neck/poll, and pelvis/spine. That's probably where I have seen/heard of the weirdest, most undiagnosed injuries.

[Auventera Two]

okay everyone stop arguing about calling horses idiots and listen.

first of all, i call him an idiot because he acts like one, but that does NOT mean that he is acting a FOOL because he is not in pain and is just stupid. let's keep remind ourselves of that please.

second of all, had him scoped for ulcers today and his stomach is a TEXTBOOK example of what you would see under "normal" "healthy" "ulcer free" so IT IS NOT ULCERS. i saw it myself.

third of all, the whole goal is to try to narrow down the list of possible PAIN RELATED issues so that I can link this behavior to something tangible, like, a sore back or allergies or whatever before i decide he's just a crazy boy. not only is that a valid method, but my big name vet boss has agreed that it is the best way for me to tackle this issue.

fourth of all, I DO NOT GIVE HIM SWEET FEED in any amount that would make him hot. LITERALLY gets a handful on top of beet pulp. he used to get 8 cans a day when he couldn't hold his weight and he wasn't as much of a lunatic then.

thank you.

Did you ever consider HIND GUT ULCERS, which cannot be seen on a scope????? The only way to really test for this is to change the diet and add something like Succeed for a few weeks and see if the symptoms improve.

Oops, probably not. Horse is just an idiot. I forgot you already self-diagnosed him.

There is a lot of "maybes" that you haven't explored yet.

[Green Acres]

No lyme test.

Why don't have this test done?

Donkey's suggestion is also an excellent idea!!!

[Pony238]

excuse me, where did you attend vet school? just wondering, since you seem to just be full of expertise information. SUCCEED is formulated to keep the digestive system healthy. my horse's diet is conducive for a healthy digestive system. you can ask my resident equine nutrition PhD. other than the potential for FOREGUT ulcers which he does not have, he shows no signs of digestive upset. here are reasons why succeed is needed as per their website:


Confined to a stall 6 or more hours per day HE IS NOT
Exercised regularly, especially rigorously HE IS NOT
Shipped in a trailer to events or shows once per month or more HE IS NOT
Fed two or three times per day twice a day but unlimited access to forage
Turned out only occasionally – less than 18 hours per day 24 HOURS A DAY
Used as a stallion or brood mare NOPE
Fed concentrates such as processed grain, pellets, or sweet feed NOPE

in addition, he does NOT need the added fuel from the oil/protein in succeed. he's got enough fuel.

there are things i have not checked yet but that does NOT mean they're not on my list. only so many hours in the day and hundreds of dollars i can spend at a particular time on a horse that I RESCUED FOR 20 DOLLARS.

can i ask, why are you so angry? i will not defend my right to call my horse an idiot because clearly you don't care. (even though you've agreed that some horses are just BAD) i will continue to search for my horse's source of behavior regardless of the fact that you think i'm not and i just think he's an idiot and that i'm doing nothing for him.

here's a hint: YOU ARE CONTRIBUTING NOTHING other than probably making yourself feel just a little bit better by putting other people down and that's pretty damn pathetic.

[Pony238]

about the lyme test-- I haven't gotten a lyme test yet but i'm not ruling it out.

[SFrost]

okay everyone stop arguing about calling horses idiots and listen.

first of all, i call him an idiot because he acts like one, but that does NOT mean that he is acting a FOOL because he is not in pain and is just stupid. let's keep remind ourselves of that please.

second of all, had him scoped for ulcers today and his stomach is a TEXTBOOK example of what you would see under "normal" "healthy" "ulcer free" so IT IS NOT ULCERS. i saw it myself.

third of all, the whole goal is to try to narrow down the list of possible PAIN RELATED issues so that I can link this behavior to something tangible, like, a sore back or allergies or whatever before i decide he's just a crazy boy. not only is that a valid method, but my big name vet boss has agreed that it is the best way for me to tackle this issue.

fourth of all, I DO NOT GIVE HIM SWEET FEED in any amount that would make him hot. LITERALLY gets a handful on top of beet pulp. he used to get 8 cans a day when he couldn't hold his weight and he wasn't as much of a lunatic then.

thank you.

I wasn't arguing nor was I saying that you horse had ulcers (or that you horse was an idiot for that matter). I was simply offering my experience with bad behavior and medical issues. However, I do wonder about the hindgut ulcers as someone else mentioned.

So, you have NOT had this horse tested for Lyme's? Why not? It is a simple blood test. I have known of many horses who have "lost their mind" only to be diagnosed with Lyme's.

What tests have you had done? What have you had xrayed, ect? I would have a complete work up done on this horse. I would have the vet observe said behavior. I would have the farrier look at his feet. I would get a second chrio out to look at him.

Another thing I have seen is that A LOT of horses out there are stiff/painful in the back end. This then leads to back pain. Different shoeing methods and chrio work can help. Again, I know that you have had a chrio out but I would consider it again.

My other point in my post was that IF it is not medical that it could just be training. There is nothing wrong with that and it can be work with.

[Pony238]

i wasn't referring to you. i haven't tested for lyme yet but i will, can't do everything in one day. we actually pulled his shoes today. we have had issues with his feet (he's got serious tb feet) but he is not sore on them. we pulled the shoes to try to toughen up his fronts. i am going to have his back and hips checked again. i have had his fronts from the carpus down and backs from the hocks down radiographed and nothing significant. he's not really that stiff in the back when he works, but he definitely used to be before he developed those muscles so that's where i'm leaning if it's some sort of orthopedic/muscle issue.

like i said, i'm doing all the medical issues first because they typically have definite treatments, unlike training or mental issues.



i got this from a scientific article written by a veterinarian from TN about HINDGUT ULCERS:
Early in the condition, horses present with non-specific
signs of mild intermittent or recurring colic episodes, lethargy and partial anorexia.
However, as the condition worsens clinical signs may include complete anorexia, fever,
and diarrhea. Progression of RDC may lead to dehydration, ventral edema, and weight
loss.

he has no colic, DEFINITELY no lethargy, and his appetite is normal, and by normal, i mean he's a vacuum cleaner. no fever, no diarrhea. in veterinary medicine we say "it is what it is" and we turn clinical signs into the simplest hypotheses and work our way up. looking at those symptoms, i would not test him for hindgut ulcers which you can do with ultrasound. if i was going to test for disease processes that he had no clinical signs for, he'll die of old age before i finish.

[EventFan]

Pony, how long ago did you adopt this horse form a rescue? I ask because it is not uncommon for rescues to need time off to let their brain "heal" (for lack of a better word.)

I understand you are doing and checking everything for him, but maybe he does need time off? I know some horses really can't deal with time off, but for some of them, rescues in particular, it can be a good thing. I have seen some "idiots' turn into nicely behaved riding partners when they understand their life is now a good thing. If this horse ever had to fight for food, was neglected, beaten, or otherwise abused, he may really need more time than you initially thought.

Good luck with him.

[Pony238]

i have been working with him since 2005 but he became officially mine in 2006. before i adopted him, he was adopted by another woman that was also at my farm so it's probably been 6 years since he's been a racehorse.

the other horse i just rescued has been at my farm for no more than 4 months but you can already tell that he LOVES his new life and is very content in not being a racehorse anymore.

[FatPalomino]

So, you have NOT had this horse tested for Lyme's? Why not? It is a simple blood test. I have known of many horses who have "lost their mind" only to be diagnosed with Lyme's.



Not so much. I worked at a small animal clinic in the area the OP is in, and a huge majority of the dogs we tested would show antibodies to Lyme's. But that didn't mean they were sick with it. Just that they were exposed, or that they were vaccinated against it. In our SA practice, we didn't treat unless the dog showed signs (along with testing positive) or we had some other compelling reason to do so. It wasn't a simple point and click, wham bam thank you ma'am test. The Doxy can be very hard on their system, also.

[SFrost]

Not so much. I worked at a small animal clinic in the area the OP is in, and a huge majority of the dogs we tested would show antibodies to Lyme's. But that didn't mean they were sick with it. Just that they were exposed, or that they were vaccinated against it. In our SA practice, we didn't treat unless the dog showed signs (along with testing positive) or we had some other compelling reason to do so. It wasn't a simple point and click, wham bam thank you ma'am test. The Doxy can be very hard on their system, also.

I do agree with the fact that you need more than just a positive test, I too worked for a vet (equine). However, it would help to rule it out and the test is simple to run. if it was negative fine. If it were positive...given the symptoms that this horse is showing, I would consider a positive lyme's test and the behavior enough to treat. I am no vet but if it were me and those were the circumstances I would go for it. (Provided the horse has not been vaccinated against it.)

[Pony238]

it is definitely a possibility. i read something about 10% of horses infected with lyme actually show clinical signs. in any case, ticks are unforgiving in this area and the test is cheap and easy (esp with employee discount!) we shall see!

[HealingHeart]

Pony238, it is clear you care very much for your guy. I know you will find the answers that you are seeking., The answer will come., your determination will get you and your guy there.

Hang in there, you guys will get that "normal" feeling back. Seek and you shall find.... as they say...

btw, there are alot of good caring ideas in this tread that will help many others seeking similar answers....., I am glad you shared and ask for ideas and suggestions. :) :)

[Pony238]

Thank you! :) :) :) I am confident we will get back to normal, too. i love that horse with all my heart... i'm hopeful and i appreciate your kind words.

[Auventera Two]

excuse me, where did you attend vet school? just wondering, since you seem to just be full of expertise information. SUCCEED is formulated to keep the digestive system healthy. my horse's diet is conducive for a healthy digestive system. you can ask my resident equine nutrition PhD. other than the potential for FOREGUT ulcers which he does not have, he shows no signs of digestive upset. here are reasons why succeed is needed as per their website:


Confined to a stall 6 or more hours per day HE IS NOT
Exercised regularly, especially rigorously HE IS NOT
Shipped in a trailer to events or shows once per month or more HE IS NOT
Fed two or three times per day twice a day but unlimited access to forage
Turned out only occasionally – less than 18 hours per day 24 HOURS A DAY
Used as a stallion or brood mare NOPE
Fed concentrates such as processed grain, pellets, or sweet feed NOPE

in addition, he does NOT need the added fuel from the oil/protein in succeed. he's got enough fuel.

there are things i have not checked yet but that does NOT mean they're not on my list. only so many hours in the day and hundreds of dollars i can spend at a particular time on a horse that I RESCUED FOR 20 DOLLARS.

can i ask, why are you so angry? i will not defend my right to call my horse an idiot because clearly you don't care. (even though you've agreed that some horses are just BAD) i will continue to search for my horse's source of behavior regardless of the fact that you think i'm not and i just think he's an idiot and that i'm doing nothing for him.

here's a hint: YOU ARE CONTRIBUTING NOTHING other than probably making yourself feel just a little bit better by putting other people down and that's pretty damn pathetic.

Well, let's see. My mare had NONE of the typical symptoms of ulcers for many months. Her only symptom was spooking under saddle at the canter. And she had horrible, horrible bleeding ulcers. As in - the ulcers encircled her entire stomach lining. About 80% of her stomach lining was red, inflamed, ulcerated, and bleeding in a few places.

With the ulcers as bad as she had it, she should have been colicking, totally off feed, and a rack of bones. But she was NOT. When her stomach came up on the screen, everybody in the clinic gasped and squeezed in around the screen to look because they couldn't believe it.

This was her during the absolute WORST of the ulcers. This was a couple of weeks before our scope and diagnosis. http://www.hphoofcare.com/PADRONA8.jpg. Absolutely NOTHING about that picture represents a horse with severe, bleeding ulcers. NOTHING.

Nor did ANY of the risk factors apply to her - stalling, high grain diet, limited hay/forage supply, heavy competition, stressful living arrangements. She lived in a pasture 24/7 with the same buddy she had since she was a baby, moderate riding schedule, few endurance rides here and there, not much grain at all, and unlimited grazing and hay. The only thing that might have been a factor was that I trailered her 2 to 3 times a week to a trailhead to ride. But she'd been doing that since she was a weanling (ponying along with the adult horses), and the trailer does not stress her at all. She walks right in, eats in her haybag, and doesn't seem to care. She's been trailering since she was so tiny, it's just a part of her routine and she's comfortable with it.

I had so many training and under-saddle issues with her, many of my rides ended in tears. I had vet and lameness exams, eye exam, radiographs, two dental exams, two saddle fitters and a year of turmoil, before I thought "maybe" just MAYBE ulcers could be at work here. Maybe. It was a long shot, but what else did I have to lose?

So you have no way to DECLARE with any certainty that the horse does NOT have hind gutt ulcers. Unless you pursue a treatment plan and see if you get any improvement, you don't know. I'm not saying he DOES. I'm only saying that it is POSSIBLE.

Also, what I found out from that scoping clinic was that just because a horse shows no ulcers in the upper stomach (can't recall the terminology), the lower portion of the stomach is not reachable by camera, and sometimes ulcers are noted there in unrelated autopsies. There were horses scoped at that clinic that day that "showed up clear" but due to all the symptoms, were treated anyway because the camera can only see so far.

And the only thing I'm angry at is that you continually smack down anything anyone recommends for you to look into. It seems like you want everybody to say "the horse is an idiot".

The reason I'm hounding you is because my horse's main problem was eratic, spooking, crazy behavior under saddle. We had some episodes I didn't post about on the forum because they were too embarassing. We're talking - head low and relaxed, walking out with a soft back one moment, then BOOM, major explosive spook and bolt, dump the rider, gallop around for 3 minutes, then come back to pick the rider up. It was the most frustrating and confusing behavior I'd ever had to deal with.

One trainer told me - this is why I don't like Arabs. They're too stupid for their own good.

Hu. Really. Well, gee, maybe not stupid but hurting.

[FatPalomino]

And she had horrible, horrible bleeding ulcers. As in - the ulcers encircled her entire stomach lining. About 80% of her stomach lining was red, inflamed, ulcerated, and bleeding in a few places.
They can develop quick. I know in SA we look all around in the stomach with our endoscope, so I'd imagine they did on Pony's horse. I'm not an equine vet or tech and don't play one on COTH, either.





So you have no way to DECLARE with any certainty that the horse does NOT have hind gutt ulcers. Unless you pursue a treatment plan and see if you get any improvement, you don't know. I'm not saying he DOES. I'm only saying that it is POSSIBLE.
I agree. Here's some other possibilities:
Brain tumor
Hot fit TB that's too athletic for his own good



And the only thing I'm angry at is that you continually smack down anything anyone recommends for you to look into.
So that's why the OP has
Run bloodwork
Radiographed all 4 legs
Scoped him
Had others ride him
Asked the recommendation of everyone that will listen (and provide constructive criticism).
Have any constructive criticism?

[Pony238]

i am just commenting on what details i have left out because i can't write a novel on every experience ive had with him so if something is suggested that i have already looked into or that, judging from KNOWING the horse, i don't think is a decent possibility. it is YOU (auventera 2) who has decided what i've disregarded and that i have diagnosed my horse as mentally challenged and put the case to rest. what I am angry about is that you CONTINUALLY CRITICIZE everything i have done, am thinking of doing, or have not done and you have even criticized those actually trying to help me, such as my nationally recognized trainer and WORLD RENOWNED veterinarian. pretty lame.

yeah your horse wasn't showing typical signs of ulcers but had bleeding ulcers in her stomach, even though acting up under saddle is a typical sign of ulcers. my horse's stomach is clean and since he's been behaving this way for 2 years or so, sure they could develop in the future, but he is CLEAN. are you telling me not to believe the screen I myself was looking at because it doesn't coincide with the diagnosis you gave him?? that's not really how science and medicine work sweet heart. seriously, you're not contributing anything to my life or my horse's. my question to you is where is your pain? you are obviously in some form of pain that is causing you to be an idiot. i knew someone who acted in a similar fashion, extremely critical, putting others down to make herself feel better, that sorta thing. only difference was, she was 12 years old. she has since grown out of it, so maybe there's still hope :)

there is no blood test for stupidity.

[Pony238]

boo. yah.

[Pony238]

and if you've dealt with it before, why are you such a snot to anyone going through the same problem when i have told you a million times i'm not ruling out pain and i'm testing for lots of things?? where's your compassion?!?! if you've had frustrating and embarrassing situations with your horse that you were too embarrassed to even ask for help, why are you ripping me apart for having the balls to put it online? im not declaring he doesn't have hind gut ulcers. what i AM saying is that, to me, he doesn't show enough signs of hindgut ulcers, none actually, except for explosive behavior (which could be a slew of things) to run out and have him checked for them IMMEDIATELY. if i go through more simple diagnoses without an answer, then we get more complicated. that's my plan. kindly please stop being a bitch. thanks.

[sunico]

Pony - I have no advice for you but I would like to say that I think you are doing a fantastic job of trying to help this horse. I hope you get to the bottom of it, because it sounds like you really love this guy. I cannot BELIEVE how rude some people (er, rather, one person) is being to you, when you are obviously trying everything you can to figure out what the problem is!

Best of luck!!!

[Auventera Two]

kindly please stop being a bitch. thanks.

Sure, no problem! And while I'm working on that, how about you work on stop saying the horse is "just an idiot."

[Auventera Two]

Pony - I have no advice for you but I would like to say that I think you are doing a fantastic job of trying to help this horse. I hope you get to the bottom of it, because it sounds like you really love this guy. I cannot BELIEVE how rude some people (er, rather, one person) is being to you, when you are obviously trying everything you can to figure out what the problem is!

Best of luck!!!

The only thing I've taken issue with is the declaration that the horse is an idiot. There are MANY avenues to explore before declaring the horse a raving, rogue lunatic.

[SFrost]

She never declared that the horse was an idiot and left it at that. She never said that he was an ass hat and that was the bottom line. She is looking for a medical cause of his behavior. I would think that is she thought that the horse was simply an idiot she'd save her time and money on the vet bills.

Pony, you are doing a fine job with your horse. Keep it up and I hope that you find an answer. Many people would not take the time to search. Good for you.

[Pony238]

Sure, no problem! And while I'm working on that, how about you work on stop saying the horse is "just an idiot."

ive said it before and i'll say it again. i said the horse is an idiot for two reasons.

1) even when he is behaving like a gentleman, he always has a goofy, dumbfounded look on his face, and it doesn't help that his lips hang off his head. he kinda looks like if he could speak, he'd say, "YAYYYYYY!" all day. he walks into walls, trips over his own shadow, chases butterflies, the usual. he acts like he always wants to cuddle. he's pretty simple. he definitely is less smart than the average horse BAD BEHAVIOR ASIDE

2) when he explodes, he acts LIKE an idiot. galavanting around, no intentions of stopping, just stupid behavior but i don't think it could be MORE OBVIOUS that i don't think he behaves this way strictly due to stupidity. how many times do you have to read that before you're convinced.

i feel like a broken record and i'm not exactly sure why i'm trying to convince an obviously thick headed person of my intentions with my horse.

[magnolia73]

LOL, I think horses can't be idiots. But they can act out for reasons other than pain. Weather, plain feeling good. Kicking up their heels. Horses in pastures let out huge bucks and tear around. That some horses feel that is at times OK under saddle is not a stretch, and a challenge of a problem to solve.

I think we like to think we can control horses and explain all behavior without looking at ourselves or considering the horse may be inappropriate. It's awesome if a feedchange, saddle fitting or joint injection turns a naughty horse nice. But there is a point where you need to realize- horses can engage in dangerous behavior in the course of having fun. I'm betting if we scanned this horse he'd have a tight spot somewhere to treat. But whether or not it would stop a gleeful round of bucking and bolt...not so sure.

The bad part is that if the OP is in a good program and a good rider, and providing a good program of quality, interesting work...and still dealing with a case of naughty- huge, frustrating problem. And I think the OP sats idiot with a degree of affection. If she truly had no respect for the horse, she would not put forth such effort. I have a hard time criticizing anyone who intends on providing a home for a horse regardless.

It seems like the best horses- the ones who achieve a great deal athletically are the eccentrics who try and plant you out of the blue. They can be difficult and it seems like it takes some thinking to get the most out of them. Maybe keep a good journal and look for trends- weather, footing, turnout, bugs, work load. My mare was a kook when I got her- turned out to be cyclical and during spring and part of summer every few weeks, like clockwork, she has times when you are best served to hack on a long rein for a few days. A journal helped me ID that trend and now I know. Bad behavior tied to heat cycle.

[TBrescue]

I sympathize with your situation. I sincerely hope you can figure out what is going on with your TB.

I have an older OTTB who suddenly became just NASTY. He tried to bite while he was being groomed, didn't want to leave his stall ever to go outside and would run to the back of his stall and hide his head when you approached with a saddle. He was also bucking when being ridden.

Turned out, he had lyme disease. Once he was treated, he was again a nice horse to have around.

Fast forward a year...horse becomes incredibly grouchy again....biting & kicking out while being groomed, reluctant to go forward under saddle, not a happy horse at all. We (vet and I) ASSume it's lyme again...run the lyme test and it's low positive...not what we expected at all.

So, we keep looking.... turns out now he's got ulcers! Once he was treated for 5 days his whole personality changed!

I think there's something going on with this guy...I really don't think he's just being a jerk, but he's telling you that something's wrong.

[Pony238]

Magnolia-i like the idea of a journal. i think that'd be a great way to plot some behavior into a trend. like your horse, my horse tends to get spring fever too, but this year it just hasn't gone away. still, great idea.

TBrescue- i am getting him tested for lyme and although he's doesn't portray those "nasty traits" in the barn like biting or kicking out, he certainly seems nasty in the ring, although he doesn't pin his ears when he acts out which is odd.

the search continues!

[Mare mom]

I agree with those who suggest ulcers. My horse acted like this before I finally decided to treat him with ulcerguard. He was balled up energy like you are describing and felt like he was going to explode (which he did a few times). After starting treatment for ulcers his behavior stopped. I did full month of ulcerguard to heal the damage.

[LuvMyTB]

Bumping this up--OP, did you ever figure out what was going on with your gelding?

Curious because I have an OTTB gelding who has undergone some rather dramatic behavioral changes under-saddle in the last 6 weeks. Originally thought it was diet-related, but now I'm not so sure. Would be interested in what the outcome was for your horse......

[WW_Queen]

Just wanted to throw it in the ring that maybe the horse doesn't like the barn. I know it seems completely ridiculous, but I moved to a fabulous small barn (3-4 horses) that had the best of care, feeding, individual turnout, etc.

He HATED it. I can't explain it, but he was acting like a fruit. I'd owned him for 3 years at that point, was easy-going, Mr. Dependable, his idea of a spook was more like a trip. At this barn he was a mess, weaved off 150 lbs, spent more time spooking and bucking than anything else on the flat. I couldn't even lunge him anymore, he was such a wreck. After 6 months and trying everything (because this was such a great place and *I* wanted to stay) I gave up and moved him to another barn.

The change was instantaneous. He went back to his normal self. I couldn't believe it.

[ETA my horse was later diagnosed with uveitis. If there is random spooking it could be due to deteriorating eyesight. While I can't explain why my horse got immediately better behavior-wise at another farm, I would still talk to your vet about examining his vision.]