Hay Belly, but still Ribby?

[Eventaholic]

Here's the scenario- 10 year old TB mare, came off the track 6+ years ago and then promptly sat in a field with a few spatterings of this that and the other thing once in a blue moon.

She was diagnosed with Headshaking Syndrome in May when I began working with her, and treatment started in June. All symptoms pretty much gone by July when she began under saddle work. She was at a pretty good weight before starting work, and then dropped a few pounds once she got started (totally expected), so we increased her grain a little bit for a few weeks without much affect.

In September she moved barns (doesn't seem too stressed out about it) and we changed her grain (had been meaning to anyway). Previously when out of work/just starting /wt 2-4 days a week she was on about 2.5 lbs Blue Seal Trotter: 14% protein, 3% fat, 18% fiber; 10,000mg MSM; hay 3X day; 2 hours of pasture (mostly spent pacing, not eating).

Currently she is worked 5-6 days a week, mostly w/t with an occasional canter/Xrail, and will be gradually working up to more work (elementary level fitness by October 11 ;) ). She now gets 4lbs Poulin Endurance 11% protein, 6.5% fat, 8% fiber; about 1.5 cups of BOSS, 12,000mg MSM, an E & Selenium supplement; and hay 3X day.

Her muscle tone has been consistently good, but she's now developing a bit of a gut- obviously not where I want her to gain weight.

Feed gurus help! I suspect this is because of the not so wonderful hay the new barn feeds- I've always been told bad hay = hay gut. I'm stretching myself pretty thin to just pay board/basics, I really don't think I can swing buying all of her hay on top of board/vet/farrier.

[Posting Trot]

You don't mention what her de-worming program has been, but that might be one thing to think about. Might be worth doing a fecal and/or a Powerpack.

You say that she has good muscle tone, although I remember reading that often what looks like a hay belly is actually a lack of a topline. So what do the muscles along her topline look like? What kind of work have you been doing with her?

If the hay is poor quality it may be that it is lacking in protein, and she may just need a higher protein feed to compensate.

Ultimately, you should probably discuss this with your vet if the horse continues to look sub-optimal.

Good lcuk.

[stryder]

I would PowerPak her.

My QH/TB mare had been consistently dewormed with the typical protocols (every 8 weeks, rotating classes) for many years, probably her entire life. Good dental care, too. Keeping weight on was an issue, regardless of how much/what I fed. When she added weight, she had a hay belly and was still rather ribby.

She got a PP mid-June. Different horse now. Top line is better. Neck is bigger. Ribs are covered with a nice layer of fat, although you can see their outline and feel them slightly. She needs less food (about half as much concentrates) and she hasn't looked this good since I bought her 20 months ago, when she was quite thin. New hoof is better.

Her level of work has not changed. Only the PowerPak.

[Eventaholic]

I knew I forgot something! She's on a rotational worming schedule and just had her ration #5 Ivermectin (this time it was Zimecterin) on September 1st.

I should have said what muscle she DOES have is toned nicely, she's still only in the beginning stages of work after doing nothing for many years and we're taking things slowly.

I'm not quick to think that her lack of topline is causing an optical illusion of a hay belly, as if anything her topline has only gotten stronger in the last few weeks when I noticed the hay belly.

When not in work she was a fairly easy keeper, and always looked nice even though she wasn't getting any proper exercise and was on Trotter (which a rep even admitted was just crap grain).

Thanks so much! Keep it coming!

[matryoshka]

I have this problem with my OTTB, Bank on Frank. He just didn't look quite right all summer (or the previous winter). I don't like to keep horses fat, especially when they get it as a hay belly, but Frank gets a big belly before his ribs become less pronounced.

Here's what I did:

1. Took Chocomare's advice and wormed with a double-dose of Equimax 14 days apart. He came in off a lease at Christmas and promptly got nasty rain rot all over. Although I got it healed, one line of rain rot on his neck was the hardest to cure and remains hairless. This got me thinking about Chocomare's theory of neck worms.

2. Added Rice Bran Pellets to his diet of alfalfa pellets, CarbGuard, and beet pulp. He gets either grass hay or an afalfa/grass mix, depending on what is available.

3. Had the vet run and ACTH test for Cushings and sugar. Numbers came back in the normal range.

4. Have recently learned to do some body work to relieve neck tension. Just learned the technique last week, and I've already seen an improvement in his posture. We do "Pretty Neck" and an circling exercise where I pull his tail toward me (really lean in) and relax. Repeat, repeat, repeat. This is easing the over-developed muscling he has, possibly the result of compensating for a knee injury from his racing days.

5. Plan to get an osteopath to look at him. If I did not have an osteopath available, I'd get a chiropractor. Still may do that.

Reason behind the body work? I think some of why Frank had been looking NQR could be posture. I know how bad I feel when muscles are bound up, and it finally occurred to me that maybe he is body sore. I have to remember who I loaned Meagher's book on massage to so I can follow up with that as well.

Don't know if you want to consider any of these things, but it has been an 8-month journey to figure out what is going on with Frank. He has been on a vet-approved worming program as well. Power Pack made no difference, but the Equimax treatment does seem to have helped ina subtle way: I had to cut back on his feed about two weeks after the second worming and his coat dappled at about the same time.

[LauraKY]

Poor quality hay/forage and/or worming program. Take a look at new studies on resistant parasites; a lot of the old standby wormers just aren't cutting it anymore.

[Eventaholic]

I've only been making the decisions on this horse for a little over a month now (was my boss's mare previously), but her current worming schedule is:
September- Ivermectin (bots, tapeworms)
November- Pyrantel Pamoate (general parasite)
January- Fenbendazole (encysted small strongyles)
March- Moxidectin (bots, tapeworms)
May- Pyrantel Paomote (general parasite)
July- Fenbendazole (tapeworms)

I'm just wondering what it is NOW that could be causing this- with better worming schedule (she was a bit behind before), and more work...?

[caballus]

You might be interested in listening to this:

http://www.horsecourses.net/2009/TELESEMINARS/recordings.htm

Scroll down to the bottom to the Equine Natural Nutrition Therapy recording. There's some excellent info there.

[Tamara in TN]

Her muscle tone has been consistently good, but she's now developing a bit of a gut- obviously not where I want her to gain weight.

Feed gurus help! I suspect this is because of the not so wonderful hay the new barn feeds- I've always been told bad hay = hay gut. I'm stretching myself pretty thin to just pay board/basics, I really don't think I can swing buying all of her hay on top of board/vet/farrier.

well hay bellies do mean higher fiber in the gut than the horse can move quickly...and people are probably tired of me saying but the hay should be over 100 RFV JMO

and on a personal note,it has taken me just about 6 weeks to repair back to "presentable"a then 3mo filly who came to me wormy and thin and hay bellied...and that is with really really fancy hay and about 7pounds of omolene 300 a day...

it just takes time so good luck....

best

[vbunny]

I have the same problem. I have had this horse in training for about 2 years, know the girl (an excellent trainer) who had him before, and she knew him before that. He has always been wormed regularly and fed decent hay. I gave up trying to get him to tuck up or lose weight and started throwing food at him. He now looks equally fat all over ;). The interesting thing to not is that I really don't see any difference in the size of his belly when he was underweight everywhere but his belly to now, when he is curvy everywhere including his belly. Big before, same size now.

[matryoshka]

Frank has been this way for years. I doubt he looked quite like this when he came off the track (I knew him then but can't remember what his figure looked like). Galloping is supposed to be like doing situps as far as stomach-muscle contraction, so his belly might have been nice and tight. Frank isn't sound for much galloping due to a track injury. I've looked into his feed, his worming program, his forage, and am left with the possibility that his posture is affecting how his belly looks. Kind of like letting your belly hang out. It looks fat, but it may not actually be fat.

I can't speak for anybody else. Worms are always the first suspect, along with poor forage. Beyond that it is a hunt for the culprit. The vet thought of Cushings, but his test came back normal. She still thinks Cushings is a possibility, but I don't want to do the dex-suppression test.

[TrueGrit]

Eventaholic,

The first thing that popped into my mind reading your title was "tapeworms". Reading the entire thread, I'm still thinking it's tapeworms. Looking over your de-worming list, you are missing an effective Tapeworm control. You need something with praziquantel, like Zimercterin GOLD, or a similar COMBO product, like ComboCare, or Equimax, like Matroyska used. (Note the dapples she mentioned 2 weeks after worming! very common immediate response after dumping a large worm load.) Ribby belly is typically worms, and the ones you listed for tapes don't get tapes anymore, if they ever did. You've got to get those tapes.

Here's a list of popular dewomers I google'd for you - http://www.horse.com/dewormers.aspx

and an article on Tapeworms in horses -
http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=9926

Note that since this article was written, the use of pyrantel pamoate to control tapes has been completely superceded by the use of Praziquantel. So in effect, your horse has not received any Tapeworm control since who knows when? I've seen some amazing improvement in condition rather quickly after a much needed Prazi Treatment, even when other dewormers were dosed faithfully. (Ideally, the next dose of dewormer should also contain Prazi in order to get any eggs hatching that might have been missed the first time around.)

I hope this solves your problem. Worms are a particular obsession of mine - lotsa pets, including horses. I HATE worms!

(and I'm sure you know to give your girl a coupla days off after this worming, since she may feel kinda queasy with a big load kill. And, no, you won't see anything in her poops, since Prazi disintegrates them.)

all the best

[Eventaholic]

Thanks so much TrueGrit! I did a lot of research before putting together her worming schedule, but there was a LOT of contradiction, and a lot of obviously manufacturer biased information, and I was still left very confused- worms are NOT my strongest equine subject.

[stryder]

I've only been making the decisions on this horse for a little over a month now (was my boss's mare previously), but her current worming schedule is:
September- Ivermectin (bots, tapeworms)
November- Pyrantel Pamoate (general parasite)
January- Fenbendazole (encysted small strongyles)
March- Moxidectin (bots, tapeworms)
May- Pyrantel Paomote (general parasite)
July- Fenbendazole (tapeworms)

I'm just wondering what it is NOW that could be causing this- with better worming schedule (she was a bit behind before), and more work...?


That's pretty much the schedule I was on, and found it was insufficient.
My mare weighs about 1300 lbs, and I was giving a single tube (rated for 1200-1250 lbs.) Not enough to do the job, and actually just making the worms more resistant. The recommended dosages haven't been changed for many years, if not decades. My vet now has us on a different program in which I administer a lot more, in combination, 3x a year.

You might search for JB's posts on the subject, or EqTrainer's. Others have posted frequently about their protocols, but those are the two screen names I instantly recall.

[jn4jenny]

I've only been making the decisions on this horse for a little over a month now (was my boss's mare previously), but her current worming schedule is:
September- Ivermectin (bots, tapeworms)
November- Pyrantel Pamoate (general parasite)
January- Fenbendazole (encysted small strongyles)
March- Moxidectin (bots, tapeworms)
May- Pyrantel Paomote (general parasite)
July- Fenbendazole (tapeworms)

I'm just wondering what it is NOW that could be causing this- with better worming schedule (she was a bit behind before), and more work...?

I agree with the advice given before re: tapeworms, but I see some other problems too. I hope when you say "Fenbendazole" in January, you are referring to a 5-day double dose of benbendazole as that is the only dosage that will kill encysted small strongyles. In many areas of the country, a single one-day fenbendazole dose does nothing anymore.

I have also gotten in the habit of double dosing my pyrantel pamoate, which has some efficacy against tapeworms. It's no substitute for praziquantel (which I use once yearly in the fall) but double pyrantel pam has at least SOME effectiveness against tapeworms, and it's better than rotating just between avermectins and the 'azole family.

[eventrider]

Classic look of a horse suffering from ulcers. I have one that relapses and starts to look like that. It is a sign to us to scope him and re-treat him.

[sid]

This is a classic "look" that you can see with babies that have ulcers OR a baby with a tape overload.

Even though the horse isn't a baby, that "look" can speak to the same problem or problems.

[matryoshka]

As for Frank, I have treated his stomach and had previously wormed for tapes. These are all good things to check out, but sometimes there are other causes.