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View Full Version : My horse "flips his pole"???



JAD
Sep. 20, 2009, 08:37 PM
Anyone know what this means? I had a lesson today and my instructor said that a couple of times when she was riding him. I was too far away at the time to ask her what it meant and she was gone before I thought about it again.

Just curious as to what she meant.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Sep. 20, 2009, 08:41 PM
Well, that depends. Did she say he "flips his poll" - meaning the nucchal ligament - or "flips his pole" - which I would assume is the gelding way of flipping the bird?

JAD
Sep. 20, 2009, 08:44 PM
LOL...with this guy I guess it could be either. She kept mentioning it when she was working with him and the bit.

Ghazzu
Sep. 20, 2009, 08:58 PM
The poll, anatomically speaking though, is the occiput.

The nuchal ligament would more likely be referred to as the crest.

Velvet
Sep. 20, 2009, 11:46 PM
Did she mean flipping his head? Which would typically indicate rough hands or mouth problems on the horse.

slc2
Sep. 21, 2009, 04:32 AM
Flipping the crest is something that happens sometimes when bending the horse's neck. You can see the fat on the top of the horse's neck suddenly lean the opposite way, so his mane can flop over from one side of his neck to the other, if his mane is short.

Most people on the internet think it's a good thing and indication of correct bending. I think this came from one American instructor originally; I've yet to find it in a book like CTHR or similar works.

JB
Sep. 21, 2009, 08:22 AM
Most people on the internet? :confused: Are you implying it's not a good thing? Ever? Or only in certain circumstances?

If a horse is correctly changing bend, I have been told the nuchal ligament will "flip" and that's just because it has to - so a good thing.

JAD
Sep. 21, 2009, 08:34 AM
JB....that must be what she was talking about because I could see his mane flipping from one side to the other when she would mention it.....as long as it's a good thing I'm happy!!

hunter-eventer-hunter
Sep. 21, 2009, 08:36 AM
I have been told by many old time Dressage riders (mostly German and Danish) that it is a good thing to see the 'crest' flop. I have never seen it on a stiff, unconnected horse.

Flipping the pole...that sounds more like a one hoof salute :)

Carol Ames
Sep. 21, 2009, 09:59 AM
I had never considered:no::confused: this; but, my first thought is, I’m sure is what you want is bend through the entire:yes: body; especially the rib ;)cage; what you are describing, however, sounds like flexion of the jaw:(, with head:sadsmile: setting:eek:; not true bend which is, I hope, not :winkgrin:what you really :yes:want; interesting question; unfortunately, I am no longer able to ride "whenever":cry: but, whenever I do again, I will definitely :yes::cool:notice; of course I will be being led at the walk, but, still.:sadsmile:.. What is everyone else noticing? The change through the center, two half circles in the old 2nd level test; would be a figure where that would happen; if, I am understanding correctly:confused:

Carol Ames
Sep. 21, 2009, 10:00 AM
I had never considered:no::confused: this; but, my first thought is, I’m sure is what you want is bend through the entire:yes: body; especially the rib ;)cage; what you are describing sounds like flexion of the jaw:(, with head:sadsmile: setting; not true bend which is, I hope, what you really :yes:want; interesting question; unfortunately, I am no longer able to ride "whenever":cry: but, whenever I do again, I will definitely :yes::cool:notice; of course I will be being led at the walk, but, still.:sadsmile:.. What is everyone else noticing? The change through the center, two half circles in the old 2nd level test; would be a gfigure where that woud happen; if, I am understanding correctly:confused:

lorilu
Sep. 21, 2009, 10:30 AM
If a horse is evenly bent throughout his body, that includes the neck.... so this flipping is an indication of bend.
Whether it is through the body or not is up to you to feel with your seat.

I know I was thrilled to see it, at was my trainer, when my guy offered it up. He is getting softer and more balanced all the time.

As an aside, his mane (he has LOTS) is starting to split evenly side to side down the center... which to us is also an indication of evenness.

L

Carol Ames
Sep. 21, 2009, 11:39 AM
Thanks Ghazzu! I still think that this does not happen :no:with true/ correct bend; is the mane attached to the nuchal ligament? so, would the mane flip as well? See if you can get a further explanation :confused:of what causes this phenomenon

Eclectic Horseman
Sep. 21, 2009, 12:12 PM
Flipping the crest is something that happens sometimes when bending the horse's neck. You can see the fat on the top of the horse's neck suddenly lean the opposite way, so his mane can flop over from one side of his neck to the other, if his mane is short.

Most people on the internet think it's a good thing and indication of correct bending. I think this came from one American instructor originally; I've yet to find it in a book like CTHR or similar works.

I previously posted a link to an article about this technique used by Conrad Schumacher. It was in DT several years back and can be found online at Equisearch. Mr. Schumacher is German.

http://www.equisearch.com/horses_riding_training/english/dressage/bendcontrol_061404/

Carol O
Sep. 21, 2009, 01:26 PM
Please do not let a lesson end with unanswered questions. If you do not understand, try to ask right then, or as soon as possible. You will get the most of the lesson this way.

JAD
Sep. 21, 2009, 01:50 PM
I normally would not let a lesson end with unanswered questions....I'm right full of them most of the time since I am just learning at the age of 43!!....:). I had 3 of our 4-H kids at the house yesterday too for lessons and it was just sort of crazy for a while.....my trainer left today for a weeks vacation with her family so I couldn't even call and ask her what she meant.

Love the knowledge on this board and I appreciate the response that I've been given....Thanks so much!

slc2
Sep. 21, 2009, 06:34 PM
It indicates the neck is bending, I don't think it necessarily indicates that everything is perfect, I've seen a very incorrectly going, neck bulging at the base, behind the bit, off the bit, stuck in the neck and tight, crooked in the hind quarters, falling in, tense horse ALSO flip its crest. And when he was the MOST tight in his neck and the MOST behind the bit, the crest flipped THE MOST. I've seen the crest flip when a horse is WIND SUCKING and CRIBBING, too.

I think it shows what it shows, and nothing more.

I think it shows the neck is bending. I think that's ALL it shows.

Is it GOOD? Yes. Is it positive? Yes. We do want a horse to bend its neck. Is it EVERYTHING? No. We are hoping some other things happen along with it.

mbp
Sep. 21, 2009, 08:01 PM
Isn't pole flipping the precursor to the apocalyptic end of the earth, predicted by the Mayan's to take place in 2012?

http://www.jiroolcott.com/2012.html

Your horse could be a reincarnated Mayan priest, anticipating the end of times kind of like an FEI horse anticipates the tempis.

Or not.

More seriously, it's usually a sign of a looseness in the neck and throughness of the bending aids, but it's like "tracking up" a kind of benchmark that you can't look at by itself.

JAD
Sep. 21, 2009, 08:36 PM
That makes complete sense....he bends at his poll fine but not at the ribcage according to my instructor....means he's good in one place and not in another? He's not been ridden a lot since I got him so it doesn't surprise me at all. He'll get there though...we just need some time.

egontoast
Sep. 21, 2009, 08:49 PM
Unless english was not the first language, I wouldn't think a knowledgeable trainer would be referring to flipping the nuchal ligament if she said flipping the poll. Completely different things so it would be an odd thing for a knowledgeable trainer to say .

JAD
Sep. 21, 2009, 09:00 PM
I'll have to be sure and ask her when she gets back so that I'll know...there are apparently different interpretations of this for different people. She says a lot of things that I don't understand.....dressage talk it like a foreign language to me right now....but I'm learning...or at least trying to learn..:).

Gry2Yng
Sep. 22, 2009, 09:07 PM
Unless english was not the first language, I wouldn't think a knowledgeable trainer would be referring to flipping the nuchal ligament if she said flipping the poll. Completely different things so it would be an odd thing for a knowledgeable trainer to say .

True, but sometimes when I am teaching I say Left Rein when I mean Right Rein. When you are riding and trying to talk to someone it doesn't always come out like it should.

Carol O
Sep. 22, 2009, 09:09 PM
I call it "flipping the crest". If that is what the trainer was refering to. Easy to see on some horses, harder to see w/others. I am refering to the nuchal ligament here.

J-Lu
Sep. 22, 2009, 09:31 PM
Lordie! Call your trainer and ask what the heck she meant! If you want to know what SHE meant, ask HER!!! I'm sure she wouldn't mind a phone call. I've never known a trainer to mind a phone call or an email.

JAD
Sep. 23, 2009, 11:08 AM
She won't mind me asking the question at all....she's just not here!! She's away for a week and I was just curious.....and impatient! LOL

TheHorseProblem
Sep. 23, 2009, 02:41 PM
I had never considered:no::confused: this; but, my first thought is, I’m sure is what you want is bend through the entire:yes: body; especially the rib ;)cage; what you are describing sounds like flexion of the jaw:(, with head:sadsmile: setting; not true bend which is, I hope, what you really :yes:want; interesting question; unfortunately, I am no longer able to ride "whenever":cry: but, whenever I do again, I will definitely :yes::cool:notice; of course I will be being led at the walk, but, still.:sadsmile:.. What is everyone else noticing? The change through the center, two half circles in the old 2nd level test; would be a gfigure where that woud happen; if, I am understanding correctly:confused:

No more caffeine for you, Carol!:)

Tif_Ann
Sep. 23, 2009, 02:49 PM
As an aside, his mane (he has LOTS) is starting to split evenly side to side down the center... which to us is also an indication of evenness.

L

Really??? This is awesome for me to read, because my boy's mane has started to do this a lot. He has a thick long mane as well (he's part spanish mustang) and I've noticed even when he shakes his head out his mane will fall to either side pretty evenly. Since he started out very, very crooked due to being blind in one eye, it would be awesome if that is truly an indicator of evenness!