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View Full Version : Going out on a limb about a potential stallion



foundationmare
Sep. 20, 2009, 07:50 PM
I'm not an advocate of breeding cheap horses and I'm not an advocate of horses being bred simply they "got 'em".

I have a TB layup that will never return to racing, and perhaps may not be a light riding prospect. I'm looking for input about his potential value as a breeding stallion.

He's a 4 y.o. son of Pulpit, out of a Deputy Minister mare. He's big (16.3), dark bay, good looking. He has a bad left ankle although he moves around on it well and enjoys a very good quality of life.

In your collective opinions, does he have any potential as a breeding stallion? His form is non-descript: I believe that he was crushed as a youngster, which doesn't necessarily reflect on his potential if he had landed in a different milieu.

I'm posting this for the owners. They're looking for input from experienced and educated COTHers.

Pronzini
Sep. 20, 2009, 08:09 PM
Depends on what you are trying to breed. I breed running horses at the Walmart level but I wouldn't breed to less than a graded SWing stallion. Stallions are just too common.

To put in a different perspective, there was an AP Indy stallion named Quasimodo who won over $200,000 running in allowance type races and when he dropped into $12,500 claimers up North, no one took him. Stallions are a dime a dozen.

Blinkers On
Sep. 20, 2009, 08:25 PM
True that. Since few geld much. I personally think we need to start even more of a trend toward selectively picking breedingstock. Including longevity of career into the equation

Laurierace
Sep. 20, 2009, 08:32 PM
Mares are easier to give the benefit of the doubt based upon pedigree. Stallions have to be the cream of the crop on the track and off to get any consideration. The exception of course are homebreds. You are free to breed as many mares as you want to him, just don't expect anyone else to do so unless your babies light the track on fire.

Slewdledo
Sep. 20, 2009, 08:35 PM
Would the owners get quality mares to breed to him and help prove himself? If they're not willing to make that investment, why would they think someone else would be?

Pulpit is sort of an anomaly as far as sons of AP Indy go - most have not been very successful. Pulpit does have Tapit, who in two crops has done quite well, but his fillies have been much better than his colts. Stallionregister.com lists 23 sons of Pulpit at stud, with fees from $1,000 (6 of them) to $35,000 (Tapit), with Corinthian and Sky Mesa each at $30,000.

Not sure if this is a consideration for you or not, but he would have to breed live cover for JC-registered foals.

PS - I worked with a son of AP Indy. GORGEOUS horse, 17 hands, had tons of opportunity with the ladies. Despite his own credentials and those of the mares he bred, his babies have a propensity for unsoundness - and they can't run much at all.

On the Farm
Sep. 21, 2009, 08:25 AM
I'm not an advocate of breeding cheap horses and I'm not an advocate of horses being bred simply they "got 'em".

I have a TB layup that will never return to racing, and perhaps may not be a light riding prospect. I'm looking for input about his potential value as a breeding stallion.

He's a 4 y.o. son of Pulpit, out of a Deputy Minister mare. He's big (16.3), dark bay, good looking. He has a bad left ankle although he moves around on it well and enjoys a very good quality of life.

In your collective opinions, does he have any potential as a breeding stallion? His form is non-descript: I believe that he was crushed as a youngster, which doesn't necessarily reflect on his potential if he had landed in a different milieu.

I'm posting this for the owners. They're looking for input from experienced and educated COTHers.
Not to be harsh, but just being honest, I would say little to none. Of course the owners could, as someone suggested, buy twenty mares and try to make him themselves, but that's an expensive reach too. One of my pet peeves about NY breeding is the prolification of nondescript stallions whose credentials read "was almost a good horse," or he won an allwance at a 100 Beyer (Beyer figs is one of the worst thing to ever happen to racing.)

If you really wish to give the owner a wakeup call, contact some bloodstock agents for their opinion.

foundationmare
Sep. 21, 2009, 08:51 AM
I'm not surprised at the responses as they are what I expected. As well, they reflect what has been posted on another forum. Thanks for your input.

SleepyFox
Sep. 21, 2009, 09:08 AM
[QUOTE=foundationmare;4388668] In your collective opinions, does he have any potential as a breeding stallion? [QUOTE]


What does the family look like? What kind of blacktype is under the first dam? What established sires are in the family?

Are the owners looking to sell him as a stallion prospect or stand him themselves? If they want to stand him, are they wanting to stand him themselves or pay someone to do it? And, are they wanting to stand him to outside mares? Unless he is half to something spectacular, he doesn't have any value as a stallion prospect to sell. Standing him to outside mares is expensive and paying someone else to stand him is very, very expensive. Again, unless there is something just jaw dropping in that first dam, he will have zero appeal to outside mares so standing him and promoting him will likely be a losing proposition.

If they believe in him and want to try him on their own mares - and understand that the resulting foals will really have no value and they will either have to race them themselves or get them broke and galloping and then give them away - then why not? If their plan requires them to profit from him being at stud, then they are setting themselves up for trouble.

Pronzini
Sep. 21, 2009, 09:32 AM
Making a stallion is one of the most expensive things you can do but it has been done before. People forget that Unusual Heat was a claiming horse taken from Mandella by Barry Abrams, that Cee's Tizzy started out as essentially a beloved pet of Cecilia Straub Ruben and that Trudy McCaffrey made Smokester.

But....these people made the commitment and did the hard work of breeding several mares and breaking, training and racing the offspring themselves. In each case, they had to be in 6 figures before the world discovered their boys.

Making a stallion is not something to do if those parts on a horse are the only ones that work right--which frankly it sounds like here.

Las Olas
Sep. 21, 2009, 10:02 AM
Pulpit is sort of an anomaly as far as sons of AP Indy go - most have not been very successful.


I totally disagree. I think sons of AP Indy are doing very well and he has more of them in the pipeline.

To the OP - I pretty much agree with the other posters. It will take a lot of money with very little chance of success. Having said that, my trainer owns a son of Cozzene that he breeds his own mares too. They do pretty well in the upper claiming and allowance ranks. However, he doesn't market the stallion, only covers his own mares and maybe a few friend's mares. If they don't get claimed, then he finds good eventing homes for them when they're retired. Most stay sound and have strong builds.

I guess the question for the owners is how much can they support him and what are their expectations? You can breed to proven stallions for very little money in this market.

Sing Mia Song
Sep. 21, 2009, 01:22 PM
I totally disagree. I think sons of AP Indy are doing very well and he has more of them in the pipeline.


I think Slewdledo was saying that Pulpit has not really proven himself to be a sire of sires (not AP Indy).

foundationmare
Sep. 21, 2009, 02:18 PM
Thanks again, all, for your input. And I stand corrected that he is out of a mare who was sired by a DM son, not DM himself.

What prompted the questions is that the blacksmith who had just trimmed him was contacted by a gentleman who is looking for a stallion for his own mares, presumably to produce his own racing stock. Said blacksmith told him about Orderly and the gentleman is going to be looking at him on Friday.

Barbara L.
Sep. 21, 2009, 03:56 PM
I hope the man that looks at him will be willing to put in the kind of money it takes to make a stallion, and wait the four or five years that it will take to see if he has the right kind of horse for the job.

One thing I'd be careful of, is what he would do with a stallion who breeds for a few years and--what is the future for an intact male horse when he doesn't make it as a stallion? I sometimes worry about the small breeding operations who get in over their heads with mares and a stallion...sorry, it's just because of my job!

Also wanted to add that well-bred stallions which have poor performance records are not in much demand---no matter how much black type is underneath them. There are so many of them who do not really get the best mares, and with the econoy the way it is, there are great deals available on proven or Gr1 winning studs.

Just a thought or 2...

Vivace
Sep. 21, 2009, 04:05 PM
I would say it's completely dependent on the dam's side, and even then, he would make a better gelding. There's just too many stallions out there.

tbracer65
Sep. 21, 2009, 09:29 PM
I guess at least his dam is 'decent'. His half bro was a KY Derby Contender in '06 & this guy did at least win. I see so many people take studs that "were going to win before they got injured" & try & promote them.....

http://www.pedigreequery.com/orderly6

foundationmare
Sep. 21, 2009, 09:38 PM
Again. You've been astute and pointed. I agree all around. He absolutely should be gelded and, if and when that happens, will be pointed to a life as a light mount. I totally understand that he is not suitable as a stud. Thanks for your input and may it end now.

Vivace
Sep. 21, 2009, 10:09 PM
I guess at least his dam is 'decent'. His half bro was a KY Derby Contender in '06 & this guy did at least win. I see so many people take studs that "were going to win before they got injured" & try & promote them.....

http://www.pedigreequery.com/orderly6

Sinister Minister is a Grade 1 winner standing at stud in Japan. :) I liked him. Zensational kind of reminds me of him. All speed, no rate.