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Sparkling_Sunset
Sep. 20, 2009, 07:19 PM
I went to look at pony a couple of times recently. I had a very, very bad accident months ago and have been extremely timid since I came back to riding about a month ago. When I have looked at this pony, he has been sweaty around his ears and a round spot about 3 inches in diameter on his withers, and just behind his elbows. (Though, to be fair, he hasn't been body-clipped in some time and has a rather thick, hairy coat currently, his stall faces West, both days have been in the mid-eighties, and I've gone out in the afternoon around 3) He seems very calm when you ride him, doesn't try and spook or anything bad. He is a kick-on horse, and I have seen a video of him where the girl that owns him currently is riding him and wearing spurs, so... And, yesterday, when I went, he was periodically shaking his head from the flies that were bothering him (and I did see flies). However, what kind of makes me worry, is that yesterday when I rode him, a few minutes after I got on him, they (the girl and the trainer) told me to let him stop because he was... "dangling" (as they put it), and they thought he needed to pee. He didin't go, so after a minute they let me go on and ride him, during which he seemed fine. As far as I know, once I got to working him, he put it away, and I didn't see anything when I got off and was grooming him and stuff for half an hour.
I'm scared though, because he SEEMS like the perfect fit, like a horse that I could FINALLY do anything with and not be afraid, but if they're drugging him with Ace or something else along that line... I hate to even think about it. The horse that wrecked my confidence, when he took off over a 3' oxer (and I've never even done a crossrail!), and I broke my arm VERY badly, I think he could have been drugged. When I got there, he was staring into space, with his eyes glazed over, not even blinking, moving his head, or anything. When I got on him, he would NOT move, and when he did, he was wandering around like a drunk. Then, after about 20 mins.-1/2 hour, he suddenly perked up, and was getting very forward. Then he just got worse about it when I tried to bring him down, and got completely out of control.
The pony was blinking, and kind of chomped on his bit when they tightened the girth, and I could get him moving out with a few kicks (sans spurs), and he seemed to ride like a normal horse, but I just don't know what to think. I don't currently have a trainer because I cannot find anyone in my area that I trust. (It's a long story that I cannot reveal here, but there is a very good reason for this-- it's not just a personal "uppity" thing)
PLEASE try and help me out here. I do not want to get hurt on a horse again. I love them and couldn't imagine my life without them. Riding this pony made my life fun again, and I would love to have him for my own so that I always felt that way-- happy. If anyone would care to see the video of how he behaves when ridden, PM me so my thread doesn't get kicked off of here.

Ghazzu
Sep. 20, 2009, 07:24 PM
Two things:

--sometimes one of the first signs of Cushing's is odd sweating.

--insist on riding the pony when you schedule a PPE, and announce that you are having blood drawn for a drug screen then, and only then.

Ambrey
Sep. 20, 2009, 07:25 PM
Did you ask them if he'd had ace recently?
You can always have a PPE vet draw blood for a blood test and hold it "just in case." Is this the Palomino?

JA
Sep. 20, 2009, 07:26 PM
If you think he is drugged take a vet or friend who is able to draw blood and draw blood for a drug screen the next time you ride him and do not tell them in advance that you are planning to draw blood. BUT you have to draw blood on a day you are trying him not on the day you say he is being vetted because often if they are drugging him, he won't be drugged that day. Good luck on your search

And if they won't let you draw blood RUN away!

Piggiejump
Sep. 20, 2009, 07:37 PM
No. Nor do I think the other horse was drugged. Sedatives do not work that way....they wear off gradually, not all of a sudden making the horse go from kicking quiet to crazy and bolting.

However, your best bet, if you are concerned, is a drug screen. Most tranqs/sedatives can still easily be seen in the system, even if they were given a couple days prior. Good luck in your search.

RockinHorse
Sep. 20, 2009, 07:40 PM
Is it possible to take the horse on trial? While some sellers do drug the animals, I think it is much more common, if it is a hot horse, to lunge it or ride it quite a bit before the seller gets there. The fact that the horse exhibited sweat marks where the bridle and girth go would make me more suspicious of this that drugging so I would ask some questions about when the horse was last worked and for how long. Unfortunately, there is no good way to detect this, however, sometimes going back to look at the horse early in the morning helps.

If you do want to buy the horse, I agree you should ride it the day of the vetting, then have the vet pull blood. The contract should have a contigency regarding the blood work.

CBoylen
Sep. 20, 2009, 08:21 PM
Nope. No one that has given the horse some ace is going to stop you while you are on the horse because it looks like it needs to pee. You can't see it dangling from up there, so why would they call attention to it if they had something to hide?
Sweat marks are consistant with it being ridden before you got there, which is almost standard. The fact that it had marks though, instead of being wet from a full bath, says to me they didn't work it very long.

when he took off over a 3' oxer (and I've never even done a crossrail!),
This is likely the cause of your prior accident, not drugs.

Ambrey
Sep. 20, 2009, 08:25 PM
Nope. No one that has given the horse some ace is going to stop you while you are on the horse because it looks like it needs to pee. You can't see it dangling from up there, so why would they call attention to it if they had something to hide?

LOL, I was thinking the same thing. If he'd been aced, they wouldn't TELL her he was dropped!

But then I have no idea, I figured better be safe (with the testing) than sorry.

mrsbradbury
Sep. 20, 2009, 08:28 PM
If you think he is drugged take a vet or friend who is able to draw blood and draw blood for a drug screen the next time you ride him and do not tell them in advance that you are planning to draw blood. BUT you have to draw blood on a day you are trying him not on the day you say he is being vetted because often if they are drugging him, he won't be drugged that day. Good luck on your search

And if they won't let you draw blood RUN away!

Personally, as a seller, no one but the VET will be drawing blood on any of my horses.
FYI: If you bring anyone but the vet to draw blood you will likely get refused.
If you really like this pony PPE, I am concerned about the long hair this time of year, and cushings will cause some of the things you have described including the sweating.

Good luck

Come Shine
Sep. 20, 2009, 08:29 PM
LOL, I was thinking the same thing. If he'd been aced, they wouldn't TELL her he was dropped!

Not to derail the thread but why?

hoopoe
Sep. 20, 2009, 08:33 PM
Did you ask them if he'd had ace recently?


if he had been aced they would not have told her

My horse sweats at 70 degrees, so that aspect does not bother me. He also dangles for no obvious reason except that he can

I think , if all else is good, go for another trial and do draw blood unannounced for testing. I am not sure of the ethics of doing so outside a vet exam, so if you are at that point, schedule the vet exam the same day or within 24 hours of ride, Drug evidence will still be present.

It is understandable for you to be apprehensive due to recent bad events, but try not to read far to much into it. Are you working with a professional who can give you an evaluation. A trusted , more experienced rider might also be able to screen the pony with you in mind.

Milocalwinnings
Sep. 20, 2009, 08:50 PM
Not to derail the thread but why?

Because they tend to drop when they've been sedated... so if they were trying to ace him without her knowing, why would they call attention to something like that?

Come Shine
Sep. 20, 2009, 08:53 PM
Because they tend to drop when they've been sedated... so if they were trying to ace him without her knowing, why would they call attention to something like that?

Tx! Learn something new about boys every day.

MistyBlue
Sep. 20, 2009, 08:57 PM
It could be a case of the nerves. As you've described, you're very timid after a bad experience and injury. Many times people can then over-analyze small normal things and "borrow worry" even if there isn't any and second guess a lot of stuff.
Horses all do unexpected things, sometimes out of the blue and sometimes due to something we did and didn't realize at the time. The horse that caused the previous injury was probably not drugged either, but hindsight after a scary incident can leave many second guessing.
This isn't abnormal behavior after a bad fall for many folks.
If it would ease your worries, schedule the PPE *with* a third ride before the PPE. And then have blood drawn during the PPE.
Do be aware there's a chance that if you keep shopping due to worries he might have been drugged, it's highly likely you will see what you consider suspicious behavior in every horse you try after this anyways. Not saying this has to be the one, but am gently saying that this might be more psychological than you think due to your current (and understandable)nerves.

GrayCatFarm
Sep. 20, 2009, 09:26 PM
Make an appointment to ride the horse again and arrange for a vet to do the PPE on sited right afterwards. You do not need to explain what the PPE will entail in advance. Discuss your concerns with the vet in advance so HE is the one who says he is pulling blood samples. We've found that once the owners learn a blood sample will be taken, all sorts of things may come out (oh, he had some bute yesterday....) You want one sample sent for analysis of any analgesics, antiinflammatories, sedatives, etc immediately. The other sample is to ensure that the horse does not have Cushings and to establish normal blood values (my mare had a bad infestation of strongyles in her gut and an abnormally low number of red blood cells that left her with no energy - only resolved with a Powerpac treatment). Not their vet, a vet of your choosing. Get xrays of all hooves in case the Cushings is already causing a possible rotation that is being covered with analgesics. The vet makes the determination of whether the horse passes the PPE, and that includes no drugs on board. Although these can be expensive, trying to keep an unfit horse fit is even more expensive and your peace of mind is worth every penny. Good luck.

goldponies
Sep. 20, 2009, 09:35 PM
Why not just ask them? If your that worried you should keep looking. Try to trust your gut. Also if you go back again try to get 30 minutes earlier then they would not have time to do it.

JinxyFish313
Sep. 20, 2009, 09:49 PM
Take him on trial. I've never bought anything I didn't bring home and try on my own for awhile. He may be just as lovely and quiet at your place as he is at theirs. Or he might be a fire breathing dragon. Just remember that they might not be on their A game in a strange place, so you have to give them the benefit of the doubt to a certain extent. You should be able to tell what behavior is from unfamiliar-place-nerves and what is constant though.

Good luck, and whichever way you go make sure you have a trusted vet do a PPE. Does sound a lot like cushings.

Ambrey
Sep. 20, 2009, 11:42 PM
Not to derail the thread but why?

Because dropping is a side effect of Ace. Something I know because that (in a higher dose) is what my vet uses when she cleans sheaths, and I asked her... wow, if that's a side effect, how do they ride all those h/j horses on ace all the time? She said a lot of them drop, some don't, people just ride anyway.

Meredith Clark
Sep. 21, 2009, 01:13 AM
I think asking them if you can have a vet pull blood will give you a good idea.

If they say "sure but he can't be ridden if he gets blood drawn" then you pretty much have your answer!

Even if you wern't planning on doing a PPE the notion of it will probably show what they're doing.. which may be nothing!

If they say "oh sure! You can do it next time you come out to try him" then he's prolly not being drugged and you can go and say the vet had to reschedule and see if he's hyper or the same.

17handponyrider
Sep. 21, 2009, 08:17 AM
If he passes the pp and is not drugged, be careful to find out what he is being fed and how much turn out he is getting. Horses can have very different personalities when fed new foods or with changes in turn out. Since you like the personality that he is showing now, make any changes very, very, slowly.

RockinHorse
Sep. 21, 2009, 08:55 AM
Make an appointment to ride the horse again and arrange for a vet to do the PPE on sited right afterwards. You do not need to explain what the PPE will entail in advance. Discuss your concerns with the vet in advance so HE is the one who says he is pulling blood samples. We've found that once the owners learn a blood sample will be taken, all sorts of things may come out (oh, he had some bute yesterday....) You want one sample sent for analysis of any analgesics, antiinflammatories, sedatives, etc immediately.

Or you can put a contigency in the contract and only run blood if you start to see a behaviour or physical change after a week or two.


The vet makes the determination of whether the horse passes the PPE

I have never seen a vet determine if a horse passes the PPE. the vet's job is to state their finds and explain what they mean based on the horse's intended use. The buyer then determines if they can live with the findings.

RockinHorse
Sep. 21, 2009, 08:56 AM
If he passes the pp and is not drugged, be careful to find out what he is being fed and how much turn out he is getting. Horses can have very different personalities when fed new foods or with changes in turn out. Since you like the personality that he is showing now, make any changes very, very, slowly.

Excellent advice :yes:

bizbachfan
Sep. 21, 2009, 09:03 AM
For someone in your situation I would say a trial is the way to go. Yes lots of sellers won't but many will. You may need to get a few references including your vet. To you the personality and termpermant are the most important and you need to the bring the horse to your place to see what this pony is really about. We took one on trial recently and though she was as quiet as they said we learned a few other things about her we didn't get to see when we tried her at the sellers place and decided to pass.

I really don't think the first horse you tried was drugged, sounds like just a green horse that freaked even though appeared calm at first.

I would tell sellers up front that if you come try the horse and really like it you need at minimum a few days trial and will be glad to have them come inspect your place, etc.

Good luck. Another way to go is buy a pony/horse that is known on a local show or trail circuit, first hand observations over a period of time cannot be beat.

cloudyandcallie
Sep. 21, 2009, 09:08 AM
Listen to your gut. (For lack of a more sophisticated term.)
If your gut says there's something wrong, do not buy.
This also works in reverse, as when your gut says buy, then do so.

You are worried about this pony, so do not buy it.

Addison
Sep. 21, 2009, 09:12 AM
I think there may be several different reasons the pony suddenly "perked up' after riding him for 20 or so minutes. He may have sensed that you were a bit nervous (even if you did not) and that may have lit him up.

I do not agree with the poster who said that a pony will not go from kick em quiet to wired when coming out of sedation. Animals and humans often become agitated when coming out of sedation, it depends on what drug was used.

I agree that if you are serious about him, you should schedule a PPE that includes an an assessment under saddle, not just ten minutes but more like half an hour. Have your vet draw blood and run a tox screen.

bizbachfan
Sep. 21, 2009, 09:12 AM
Listen to your gut. (For lack of a more sophisticated term.)
If your gut says there's something wrong, do not buy.
This also works in reverse, as when your gut says buy, then do so.

You are worried about this pony, so do not buy it.


Normally I would completely agree but the OP is coming off a bad fall, etc and I think that is influencing the decision, at this point no horse/pony may feel right.

Addison
Sep. 21, 2009, 09:20 AM
SPARKLING SUNSET please check your PMs.

LessonLearned
Sep. 21, 2009, 09:51 AM
I completely sympathize. Horse buying can be a fun but nightmarish pursuit. My first purchase involved me doing just about everything a first time buyer can do wrong -- including not being present for the PPE. This resulted in the seller putting a horse in the middle of a colic episode on the trailer to me, which ended in surgery 24 hours later. Thankfully, everything worked out for the best in the end -- owner took horse back, horse lived, owner's threats to sue me and stick me with the bill were unsuccessful.

At another point, we were planning to go and look at a horse and some friends of my trainer heard about it and called to let us know that the people were planning on drugging the horse for our visit. They had also drugged the horse for a local show and he was perfect. Not so much when they took him away and did not drug him.

In still another case, I had looked seriously at a horse and then went to another local barn where we pretty quickly figured out that their horse would not suit me. In the course of our conversation, I mentioned that I might be going back to look at the first horse again. When I mentioned the trainer's name, they got very quiet. They took me to see a horse in their paddock who came from the same trainer. Apparently, the horse was sold to a kid as a packer. Once the long-acting drugs wore off, the horse went insane and broke the kid's back. When I saw him the horse was winging around the pasture and charged the gate where we were standing.

So, my lessons from my experience are this:

1) Take a reputable and knowledgeable trainer with you on your search. They should be prepared to get on the horse and see if s/he is suited to you and your needs.

2) Ask around (quietly) about reputation if you don't know the seller personally. The horse world is notoriously small. If there is dirt to know, someone will know something. Checking out the show circuit is not a bad idea either.

3) As others have said, get a PPE with a vet you trust. One of my big mistakes was going with the vet the seller suggested rather than the one I wanted). Which leads me to my next point --

4) Don't let yourself be rushed. It should have been a big red flag to me that the seller was trying to get the horse to me as quickly as possible (to the point of driving him the 2 hours to me herself when my new trainer was going to pick him up on Tuesday).

5) Trust your gut. Shady sales tactics are the same if you are buying a horse, a car, or a house. If something doesn't seem right, walk away.

MistyBlue
Sep. 21, 2009, 10:24 AM
and I asked her... wow, if that's a side effect, how do they ride all those h/j horses on ace all the time?

Not to derail, but seriously? You do realize this is the hunter/jumper forum, right? ALL h/j horses ALL the time? Is the circuit in OC CA that bad?
Not to mention...I have never ever seen a single jumper aced to ride.

Sorry and back to your scheduled thread.
OP, let us know how it goes. :yes:

rabicon
Sep. 21, 2009, 10:39 AM
The pony I bought for my daughter 3 or so years ago is like this. A kick ride and easy. He actually does dangle out some when he is being ridden by her. When she gets off boy he dangles a lot more :lol: He just likes to let it hang alot. :lol: I say he is to lazy to hold it in but whatever. Just have blood drawn on an unexpected day. Tell them your coming out to ride once more and bring the vet along. About 20 min. before you get there call and tell them that the vet is coming for a ppe also. That this is the best time for him. Good luck

Janet
Sep. 21, 2009, 10:52 AM
Make an appointment to ride the horse again and arrange for a vet to do the PPE on sited right afterwards.
This has me confused. Whenever I have bought a horse that is "under saddle", riding the horse is PART OF the vetting, not BEFORE the vetting.

And that has nothing to do with fears about drugging, and everything to do with "stuff" that only shows up under saddle (especialy in the back), and with checking heart and lungs at work. Yes, you can get a heart and lung reading with lungeing instead, but I always prefer to ride the horse in the vetting if possible.

Ambrey
Sep. 21, 2009, 11:10 AM
This has me confused. Whenever I have bought a horse that is "under saddle", riding the horse is PART OF the vetting, not BEFORE the vetting.

And that has nothing to do with fears about drugging, and everything to do with "stuff" that only shows up under saddle (especialy in the back), and with checking heart and lungs at work. Yes, you can get a heart and lung reading with lungeing instead, but I always prefer to ride the horse in the vetting if possible.

I haven't had under saddle work for any of my PPEs, but that is such good advice!

And SS, please do let us know how it turns out. I hope you end up with your dream pony!

meupatdoes
Sep. 21, 2009, 11:14 AM
Why not just ask them? If your that worried you should keep looking. Try to trust your gut. Also if you go back again try to get 30 minutes earlier then they would not have time to do it.

First of all, I think this potential buyer is nervous because of her previous experience with a different horse, not because of anything this pony or these sellers have done. If she moves on from every horse she tries because of this 'bad feeling,' she will never get a horse.

Secondly, I am really tired of customers who try to 'trip up' the seller.
The "half hour early arrival" is incredibly annoying.

My horses live at a very private boarding facility. I am the only boarder aside from the barn owner. Numerous times it has happened to me that while I was on the way to the barn to show a horse to some customers, the barn owner's wife has called me on the phone asking me what she is supposed to do with my 'guests'. They now have a little family to babysit while my horse stands in his paddock undrugged and not getting longed.

I had people do this to me twice on the same horse. The first time they showed up fully 40 minutes early. I was on I-78. Barn owner had to deal with it. I walked into the barn and quipped, "Sorry I'm not early, I was busy longing the horse on I-78."

When they came back to try the horse again, they did the SAME THING. They scheduled for 8:30am; I rolled in at 8:15 and they had already been there for at least half an hour (they got there before the working student) and had been hanging around the barn ever since. "Oh, we must have overestimated how much time it would take us to get here even though we were here just three days ago funny that." My barn owner/trainer is extremely polite about this, but I am sure he does not appreciate random strangers lolling around his farm unsupervised.

Meanwhile, if a seller does want to prep a horse before people get there (which, in this world of lawsuits and people wildly exaggerating their riding ability is not always a dumb idea), no idiot is going to be doing so 30 minutes before the scheduled arrival of the customers. Arrive at 7, ride horse, bathe/groom/spit shine horse, by 9am he is back in his house glowing and beautiful and the seller can move on to getting other horses done while waiting for the people to show.

It's just so HILARIOUS when someone show up 45 minutes early, wink wink, aren't they slick.
:rolleyes:

That is the text book way to advertise that you have no idea what you are doing and this is the 3rd pleasure horse you have bought in as many decades.

Ambrey
Sep. 21, 2009, 11:17 AM
I don't understand why prepping a horse for an unknown (or known timid) rider is a bad thing, but it's something you should probably ask about.

Lori
Sep. 21, 2009, 11:27 AM
I agree with Mistyblue on the case of nerves and being overly sensitive.
I would take him on trial if at all possible and pull blood on the PPE (for Cushings, too). You don't need a trainer, you need time with this pony.

Bogie
Sep. 21, 2009, 12:03 PM
This is very good advice.

You really need to bring your trainer with you or at least a very knowledgeable friend. Having your own eyes on the ground is very helpful and can help you weed out unsuitable horses before you get to the PPE stage. Not to mention I always want someone there to drive me home in case something unthinkable happens!

However, before you buy a horse can I make a suggestion? It sounds like you were quite traumatized from your fall/injury. It might make sense to take lessons or lease a horse until you've regained your confidence. The horse that might be suitable for you now, when you're feeling vulnerable, may not be the right horse for you in six months, when you've regained your confidence.

At least in your posting you come across as feeling very worried about the horses you are trying. Nothing you described to me sent up a red flag about the horse/pony being drugged. I think that it's a good idea to draw blood as a precaution during a PPE but if I was selling a horse I would not be receptive to having someone other than a vet draw blood at a test ride.

Buying horses is stressful, for sure. Going it on your own definitely makes it harder.

Good luck!


I completely sympathize. Horse buying can be a fun but nightmarish pursuit. My first purchase involved me doing just about everything a first time buyer can do wrong -- including not being present for the PPE. This resulted in the seller putting a horse in the middle of a colic episode on the trailer to me, which ended in surgery 24 hours later. Thankfully, everything worked out for the best in the end -- owner took horse back, horse lived, owner's threats to sue me and stick me with the bill were unsuccessful.

At another point, we were planning to go and look at a horse and some friends of my trainer heard about it and called to let us know that the people were planning on drugging the horse for our visit. They had also drugged the horse for a local show and he was perfect. Not so much when they took him away and did not drug him.

In still another case, I had looked seriously at a horse and then went to another local barn where we pretty quickly figured out that their horse would not suit me. In the course of our conversation, I mentioned that I might be going back to look at the first horse again. When I mentioned the trainer's name, they got very quiet. They took me to see a horse in their paddock who came from the same trainer. Apparently, the horse was sold to a kid as a packer. Once the long-acting drugs wore off, the horse went insane and broke the kid's back. When I saw him the horse was winging around the pasture and charged the gate where we were standing.

So, my lessons from my experience are this:

1) Take a reputable and knowledgeable trainer with you on your search. They should be prepared to get on the horse and see if s/he is suited to you and your needs.

2) Ask around (quietly) about reputation if you don't know the seller personally. The horse world is notoriously small. If there is dirt to know, someone will know something. Checking out the show circuit is not a bad idea either.

3) As others have said, get a PPE with a vet you trust. One of my big mistakes was going with the vet the seller suggested rather than the one I wanted). Which leads me to my next point --

4) Don't let yourself be rushed. It should have been a big red flag to me that the seller was trying to get the horse to me as quickly as possible (to the point of driving him the 2 hours to me herself when my new trainer was going to pick him up on Tuesday).

5) Trust your gut. Shady sales tactics are the same if you are buying a horse, a car, or a house. If something doesn't seem right, walk away.

Lori
Sep. 21, 2009, 12:54 PM
I agree to take your time. Don't rush!
Have you considered leasing an older, steady pony rather than purchasing?

kellidahorsegirl
Sep. 21, 2009, 01:18 PM
I totally agree with Misty Blue on this one. I didn't for a minute think it sounded as if the pony was drugged.

Are you going by yourself to these test rides? I really think you have a case of the nervous nellies........and its justifiable! But I highly suggest finding a friend who rides well to come out with you.....find a trainer outside of your area (since you can't trust anyone there). Find someone to come along and give an 'outsiders' opinion.

Its really hard after a bad wreck to get passed it. I also like the lease type option. OR save your purchase money and use it on a good trainer with lesson horses. Spend some time on schoolies and regain your confidence for a year. Maybe you'll gain a trust with THAT trainer and they can help you find the perfect horse.

Either way, to be blunt, it doesn't sound like you're quite ready to make the huge step of OWNING a new horse.... Thats an ok thing too! Just get your own head back in the game first :)

Good luck!!

Giddy-up
Sep. 21, 2009, 01:38 PM
Also if you go back again try to get 30 minutes earlier then they would not have time to do it.

Really? Here's a possible scenario...

Potential buyer shows up early. Seller says oh gee whiz, I want to show you some paperwork, pictures, etc... in the office. Off goes seller & buyer to office. Here comes groom or somebody & gives the horse some ace IV. Buyer comes back from office visit, takes horse out of stall, brushes for a bit, tacks up & goes off to ride.

Honestly if the seller is trying to be sneaky about altering the horse, showing up 30 minutes early isn't going to matter. The horse will have been ridden/lunged/schooled & bathed long before that, same with any medications it may have rec'd.

OP--do you have a horse friend shopping with you? Anybody with more horse experience? I know you don't have a trainer, but you do need somebody you can ask questions & help direct you.

fair judy
Sep. 21, 2009, 01:40 PM
the op states " I hate to even think about it. The horse that wrecked my confidence, when he took off over a 3' oxer (and I've never even done a crossrail!), and I broke my arm VERY badly, I think he could have been drugged."

were you at that time with a trainer? i cannot believe that any reasoned person would even attempt to jump a 3' oxer when they had never jumped anything higher than a cross rail. it is LIKELY that you did something over that oxer which caused the horse to react the way it did.:no:

you need someone with more experience than you apparently have to go with you, and to do something with those trust issues.

i hope you will take this criticism with the good intentions it is made with.

Giddy-up
Sep. 21, 2009, 01:49 PM
I could be wrong, but I got impression that OP was beginner rider hacking horse around ring when for whatever reason it took off & oops there was a jump in the way so horse jumped it & OP fell off breaking arm??

rabicon
Sep. 21, 2009, 02:56 PM
It sounds to me that the OP was not jumping the horse over a 3' oxer but the horse decided he was going to jump a 3' oxer with rider. If you test another horse and do not jump please ask them to take the jumps down :winkgrin: Keeps you safer. Even my daughters steady eddy will jump but she doesn't and I take down jumps to ground poles or no poles at all when she rides just to make sure he doesn't decide that he wants to jump ;)

Long Spot
Sep. 21, 2009, 04:05 PM
I could be wrong, but I got impression that OP was beginner rider hacking horse around ring when for whatever reason it took off & oops there was a jump in the way so horse jumped it & OP fell off breaking arm??

That's what it sounded like to me as well.

OP, take your time. If you really think this is the pony and are set on buying not leases a made animal and you've looked at a few already, just press forward with the PPE. Without mentioning it to the sellers before hand ask the vet to draw a sample for a drug panel. As someone else said, you'd be suprised what comes out in the wash when you do. I always do it on every PPE. I even suggest to people vetting horses I'm selling to do one.
I also agree with another sample to look for hints of Cushings. Sounds like the more likely thing here.

Keep us posted.

Carolinadreamin'
Sep. 21, 2009, 04:07 PM
I don't understand why prepping a horse for an unknown (or known timid) rider is a bad thing, but it's something you should probably ask about.

No, I think that is one of the things to look out for. If you are a timid rider, you want a horse that, once home, will be quiet when you first get on him. You don't want to try a horse you think seems quiet, but in reality was ridden hard before you showed up. Not unless you plan on having someone else ride him to tire him out every time you plan to ride him.

Long Spot
Sep. 21, 2009, 04:24 PM
Agree, Carolina.

I wouldn't mind looking at a horse that needed prep for a rider with confidence and the riding skills to back up that sort of ride, if the horse was everything else we were looking for.

If I were looking for a beginner or a rider with confidence issues, I would really be turned off by a horse that required a fair amount of prep work. Buying one like that would likely mean I was buying too much horse for the job I needed it to do.

Having someone hide the prep work means the seller also knows the horse isn't the horse I am looking for. But as Meupatdoes said, if someone is set on doing that, you aren't going to catch them by showing up a bit early. That's where experience and spidey sense come into play. ;)

twofatponies
Sep. 21, 2009, 04:43 PM
Normally I would completely agree but the OP is coming off a bad fall, etc and I think that is influencing the decision, at this point no horse/pony may feel right.

Agree.

OP - might it be useful to take a little more time to recover from your accident related stress - such as by taking some gentle lessons on some pokey school ponies - before buying another horse/pony for yourself? You would then develop a relationship with a riding teacher, too, who could help you find the right new horse?

bornfreenowexpensive
Sep. 21, 2009, 04:51 PM
I don't currently have a trainer because I cannot find anyone in my area that I trust. (It's a long story that I cannot reveal here, but there is a very good reason for this-- it's not just a personal "uppity" thing)



Go shopping for a trainer first. Find someone you like and you trust and get their help in buying a suitable horse/pony. I'm not one who thinks you need a trainer to hold your hands for everything but unless you are an experienced horseperson, get help from an expert. Alternatively, do you have any friends that are experienced? A good trainer should be able to help you pick the right horse for you...and help you with your horse. The hard part is finding one you can trust.

It sounds like you like this pony....so find a trainer that you think you want to work with, let them know you have found a pony that you like and see if you can get their opinion on him. Please note that you will most likely need to pay them for that opinion so find that out up front. My own trainer didn't charge me to go look at some horses that I had found....but honestly, that is a bit unusual.

Ambrey
Sep. 21, 2009, 05:48 PM
No, I think that is one of the things to look out for. If you are a timid rider, you want a horse that, once home, will be quiet when you first get on him. You don't want to try a horse you think seems quiet, but in reality was ridden hard before you showed up. Not unless you plan on having someone else ride him to tire him out every time you plan to ride him.

Oh, I forgot- most people here have their horses in turnout all the time. I'm thinking So Cal, horse is cooped up all the time, all horses need to get their sillies out sometimes prep (the horse in the OP is in So Cal).

I have heard the phenomenon you're mentioning, but I wouldn't discount the pony just because they let it burn off some energy before letting the unknown rider on.

Sparkling_Sunset
Sep. 21, 2009, 07:44 PM
the op states " I hate to even think about it. The horse that wrecked my confidence, when he took off over a 3' oxer (and I've never even done a crossrail!), and I broke my arm VERY badly, I think he could have been drugged."

were you at that time with a trainer? i cannot believe that any reasoned person would even attempt to jump a 3' oxer when they had never jumped anything higher than a cross rail. it is LIKELY that you did something over that oxer which caused the horse to react the way it did.:no:

you need someone with more experience than you apparently have to go with you, and to do something with those trust issues.

i hope you will take this criticism with the good intentions it is made with.

That is because I DID NOT try to jump that fence. At all. That would have been an idiotic thing to do, is something I would have NEVER, EVER dreamed of trying,a dn I found out afterward that there was a lot that the seller did not tell me about the horse before I rode it. He even said that he was giving lessons on this horse (an OTTB) to 7 and 8 year old beginners.:no: And the so-called trainer I had at the time (who had originally mentioned to me that this horse was for sale) never offered or insisted on going with me to look at the horse. The bottom line is, they misrepresented this horse. End of story.

cloudyandcallie
Sep. 21, 2009, 08:18 PM
This thread is asking for advice on a prospective purchase, not "what did I do to deserve a broken bone."

Sparkling_Sunset
Sep. 21, 2009, 08:27 PM
This thread is asking for advice on a prospective purchase, not "what did I do to deserve a broken bone."

Thank you!!

FancyFree
Sep. 21, 2009, 08:37 PM
Not to derail, but seriously? You do realize this is the hunter/jumper forum, right? ALL h/j horses ALL the time? Is the circuit in OC CA that bad?
Not to mention...I have never ever seen a single jumper aced to ride.

Sorry and back to your scheduled thread.
OP, let us know how it goes. :yes:

Sorry as a former hunter rider, who rode for most of my life in Orange County, I have to defend those h/j people in the OC. I've never seen a hunter horse aced to ride either, never had a trainer who aced a horse to show. I'm sure it happens, but ALL the time? Uh, no. The person who wrote that has never shown hunters or even jumped a horse for that matter, so consider the source.

I agree about shopping with a reputable trainer. The first horse I ever bought on my own was Aced. It was very apparent once I got her home. I think my trainer would have recognized it right off the bat, but I thought she was just amazing. "Look at this young, fresh off the track Thoroughbred, able to walk right next to traffic without blinking an eye!" Yeah it was a different story when we got home. I spent two years avoiding death on that horse.

Take some experienced eyes with you if you don't have a trainer yet. Have the vet pull blood.

nature
Sep. 21, 2009, 08:43 PM
The vet makes the determination of whether the horse passes the PPE, and that includes no drugs on board.

I have never know any vet to pass or fail a horse. They just report what they find. The potentisl owner, and if included, the trainer decide if they can live with the results.

GrayCatFarm
Sep. 21, 2009, 11:04 PM
That's correct. Actually, in the best of both worlds the owners provide you with a release to obtain the horse's veterinary records which are then shared with the vet doing the PPE - before the PPE. That helps interpretation of xrays (how long has that chip been there) and can save $$$. And the vet doing the PPE writes a summary of findings for the owners when you return the horse for not having passed the PPE. However, the OP does not have a trustworthy trainer with her. So, in this case, I might "let" the vet make the determination.

RugBug
Sep. 22, 2009, 02:18 PM
OP: It doesn't sound like the pony was drugged. It does sound like it might have been worked a bit before you got there.

FWIW, I had a fall from my horse resulting in a broken arm that took almost 9 months to heal and 5 years later I still have issues (I categorize that as serious). It took me quite some time to get comfortable on a horse again. Even now, I have a VERY difficult time riding new horses, which made my recent horse shopping experience difficult. I bought a new horse who I felt really comfortable on when I went to see him. Sadly, I've been having some issues with him that were unexpected. I don't think the previous owner's drugged him, I just think he's in a different program (feed/exercise/turn-out/rider) and it's bringing out some behaviours that don't make me happy. I am adjusting things and hoping that I can get it all straightened out.

You may do all your homework and still end up with a different horse than what you think you are buying, through no fault of the seller. Do your due dilligence (ride before ppe, draw blood, ask for a trial, ride as much as you can before you buy), but realize that any time a horse changes programs, their behaviour can change as well.

Edited out the 3' jump part of my post...y'all already covered it. :D

cyberbay
Sep. 22, 2009, 03:29 PM
This is coming at the issue from a different angle. The issue being a horse that will make the OP comfortable and allow her to return to the riding she loves so much. So, in pursuit of that, as others have mentioned: 1) maybe a 1/2 or full lease on an animal you like is a good way to go? 2) Maybe taking a series of lessons -- at least 10 lessons -- using the same lesson horse, etc., until your confidence is something you don't have to talk to yourself about so much anymore. 3) Do #2 to lead you to #1?

Purchase seems way up the ladder in terms of the recovery here. Honestly, if your concerns have you this uncomfortable, please don't buy the pony. Keep looking or find a leasing/lesson arrangment until you are ready...

fair judy
Sep. 22, 2009, 04:03 PM
I could be wrong, but I got impression that OP was beginner rider hacking horse around ring when for whatever reason it took off & oops there was a jump in the way so horse jumped it & OP fell off breaking arm??

that is not what the confusing op says, but i can see it has now been clarified.

sorry you broke your arm, but just because a horse is an ottb does not make it unsuitable for lessons for young kids.

you still need a trainer. period.

LockeMeadows
Sep. 23, 2009, 08:43 AM
I have two geldings that are always dropped. One is a yearling and was even showing himself while being shown on the line. The other can trot around while hanging out. Both are dead-quiet, kick-along types and have never needed a drop of ace in their lives.

Midge
Sep. 23, 2009, 08:49 AM
. wow, if that's a side effect, how do they ride all those h/j horses on ace all the time?

It can get tricky but it really makes you respect the courage and abilities of all those hunter riders perching up there on their push button horses, doesn't it?? My horse learned not to dangle when aced when he kept hitting it on the jumps. It worked just like poling. Awesome, huh?

Sparky
Sep. 23, 2009, 11:10 AM
^^^:lol::lol::lol: