PDA

View Full Version : This is why the Europeans still beat us....



hunter-eventer-hunter
Sep. 18, 2009, 02:42 PM
http://www.ridehesten.com/heste-billeder/salg/?catalogid=14&catalogentryid=18481&searchmodeissplit=true&searchstring=

So you don't have to speak Danish to get the point.

Kids jumping big jumps, on ponies, but in good classic form with automatic releases...

I am not trying to start a train wreck...But these kids are good and out of a country with only 5 Million people.

PinkPonies
Sep. 18, 2009, 02:57 PM
Those are so fun to look at - wow and thanks!!!

hunter-eventer-hunter
Sep. 18, 2009, 03:01 PM
The standards are beer crates....

http://www.ridehesten.com/Heste-billeder/Nostalgiske/?PageIndex=24&ID=196

Come Shine
Sep. 18, 2009, 03:03 PM
I love the water jump!

SOTB
Sep. 18, 2009, 03:06 PM
I love the one kid who's smiling over all of the jumps!

raave05
Sep. 18, 2009, 03:08 PM
i love the little kids jumping the water. that is awesome to see.

faraway46
Sep. 18, 2009, 03:27 PM
Couldn't agree more with you.
If someone says "but kids can get hurt!", well I can recommend maybe chess lessons or golfing (but not during a thunderstorm ;) )...

gottagrey
Sep. 18, 2009, 03:32 PM
They don't start off w/ 18" Short stirrup. I went to a horse show in Ireland a few years ago - one of the pony classes (all jumper) was 3'6" with triple combinations. Kids didn't walk the course but were allowed in to "show their ponies the fences" for about 15 minutes and then started the class... it was amazing

theblondejumper
Sep. 18, 2009, 03:41 PM
ID: 6013_sme_01_IMG_8782.JPG

Was my favorite.

imapepper
Sep. 18, 2009, 03:46 PM
The standards are beer crates....

http://www.ridehesten.com/Heste-billeder/Nostalgiske/?PageIndex=24&ID=196

"hold my beer and watch this!" ?......Really cool photo.

I love the pony on the second page at the bottom. That has to be the cutest pony ever. I would be curious to find out what kind of divisions that kids and ponies have over there and where these kids start out.

MistyBlue
Sep. 18, 2009, 03:49 PM
We could have been contenders. ;)
Seeing the same in the 70s here in the US wasn''t unusual. 7-10 year olds doing 3' on ponies and handling double reins if necessary. (ponies weren't push button, more stop-n-dump, LOL)
Things got dumbed down here.
US parents have the kids who do it all...and parents who need to work 2 jobs....no time for riding 10-12 hours per week.

imapepper
Sep. 18, 2009, 03:55 PM
We could have been contenders. ;)
Seeing the same in the 70s here in the US wasn''t unusual. 7-10 year olds doing 3' on ponies and handling double reins if necessary. (ponies weren't push button, more stop-n-dump, LOL)
Things got dumbed down here.
US parents have the kids who do it all...and parents who need to work 2 jobs....no time for riding 10-12 hours per week.

Exactly....glad someone said this.

Kaleigh007
Sep. 18, 2009, 03:55 PM
PLUS...do you really think the European's sell us their best horses??? Really???:no::rolleyes:

RAyers
Sep. 18, 2009, 03:59 PM
Also note that there is no stigma attached to wearing safety equipment. All of the kids have flak jackets on as well. To me it says that the system instills the attitude, "I am more concerned about riding over the fences than how I look getting over the fences."

Reed

Madeline
Sep. 18, 2009, 04:11 PM
No hunter hair! No gloves! Funky looking boots! Who do these kids think they are? Don't they have any respect for tradition?

What a great set of photos. Like the OP said, real kids, real fences. Nice to see.

hunter-eventer-hunter
Sep. 18, 2009, 04:13 PM
PLUS...do you really think the European's sell us their best horses??? Really???:no::rolleyes:

These aren't 'sport ponies' in the same way you have German Spot ponies. Many of these are the family pets and just 'mutt' animals.

And yes, Denmark sells MANY of its best horses to other nations. The country is so small and the number of riders is small by default, so unlike say Sweeden or Germany where as a foreign buyer you are seeing second and third string by default, that isn't the case in Denmark.

Plus, is would be un-Danish to not sell you best product and get top dollar (well, Kroner) for it.

WorthTheWait95
Sep. 18, 2009, 04:19 PM
Did anyone else notice the WHITE GPA speed air one girl had in an awards photo? I didn't even know they made those!

Great photos. Some of those guys were really tall. Must be weird to jump big on something so little when you're that tall.

Dispatcher
Sep. 18, 2009, 04:19 PM
We could have been contenders. ;)
Seeing the same in the 70s here in the US wasn''t unusual. 7-10 year olds doing 3' on ponies and handling double reins if necessary. (ponies weren't push button, more stop-n-dump, LOL)
Things got dumbed down here.
US parents have the kids who do it all...and parents who need to work 2 jobs....no time for riding 10-12 hours per week.

"..handling double reins if necessary...." you mean they don't learn how to ride with double reins??! Why is that so hard? Gosh, I SO miss the "old days" of the '60's. You didn't get to go in the show ring until you knew how to ride. You didn't just go and buy an expensive horse so you could compete. Seems like that's what happens nowadays. I'll go back to my cave now......

hunter-eventer-hunter
Sep. 18, 2009, 04:26 PM
http://www.ridehesten.com/Heste-billeder/Dagens/Default.aspx?ID=274&PageIndex=19


This is Andrea Hegelstrand of Blue Hors Matine Fame jumping with no hands....

JenEM
Sep. 18, 2009, 04:30 PM
These aren't 'sport ponies' in the same way you have German Spot ponies. Many of these are the family pets and just 'mutt' animals.



I would guess that there are probably a lot of "mutt" type, backyardish ponies here that could do the same, but aren't given a chance, because they're not the fancy, hunter-type ponies everyone wants for the show ring. There is a family that trailers in for lessons with my trainer; the two littlest girls are on little mutt-type ponies, and those little guys are rockstars! Not fancy, and would probably never pin in a hunter ring, but they're doing the same 2'6 courses my horse and I are working on, complete with coops and bending lines and a little liverpool. These are maybe moderately sized Mediums. Half the barn comes up to the ring to watch their lesson, because its fabulous.

Most kids on ponies stick with the hunters, but if we actually had more pony jumpers here, or encouraged talented kids on good ponies to do jumper divisions, there's no reason they couldn't be doing the same thing. I saw quite a few ponies rocking around at BN to T level eventing when I jump judged this summer, and those fences are bigger and solid, compared to anything you'd see in a jumper ring.

Calvincrowe
Sep. 18, 2009, 04:43 PM
Call me unimpressed, but I see that kind of riding here, too. It isn't as if we don't have children able to ride good (and bad) ponies over 3' fences in America. As a teacher, I see kids with TOO many options for their hobbies. Schools offer sports and clubs, outside school leagues--football, volley, base, basket, swim, running, cheerleading, dance....this list is endless. Horse sports are low on our national priority, as well. I think in Europe there are generally no school sponsored sports like here, and this allows kids to choose other things outside of school.

I agree that we do things differently here (there are no "hunters" in Europe) and that you do see kids seemingly doing more. Go to an event here or a Pony Club Rally. Kids really can ride in America.

klmck63
Sep. 18, 2009, 04:53 PM
I would say that they're concerned with fashion. They're all wearing very much the same "uniform" it's just not the same style as here. Neat pictures to look at though! This is why Germany's "second string" that they sent to the Masters was so darned good! Hahah :)

mjrtango93
Sep. 18, 2009, 05:01 PM
Not to mention they have true pony jumper classes abroad to teach kids! At least on the West Coast we don't have pony jumper classes that can even touch that height, and it's a shame. We had the most amazing medium in our barn that evented through training, and schooled prelim which is 3'6", more then capable of the height and complexity but the speed was too much for something that had to be on his tip toes to be 13.3hh. He needed to be sold as he was a bit much for a lesson horse, figured pony jumpers where the way to go, kids would be aggressive and forward and he would eat up the courses in a rubber D ring. He is a fabulous jumper but doesn't bascule enough to be a hunter, and likes a bit of pace. Took him to a show and the heighest pony jumper class was 2'9", the poor guy was yawning! Dudley would be in hog heaven with one of those kids on that course. :winkgrin:

JinxyFish313
Sep. 18, 2009, 05:16 PM
That first photo, that palomino pony is to die for! So cute!


Kids these days here are, overall, not go-getters. Discipline in schools is not what it used to be. Parents are out of the home leaving the child rearing to the TV, the internet and the babysitter. Kids are overcommitted after school.

Its much more expensive to compete here and do well, and many kids that have real ability but no budget for a fancy ride or fancy clothes or BNT don't pin at shows and then get discouraged. There are lots of fantastic kids in eventing and pony clubs and backyards.

We have too many dumbed down divisions on offer here for there to be any incentive for trainers to move their kids up, or kids to want to move up.

The instinct to quiet ponies down until they are on auto-pilot is too prevalent here too. If more kids had to RIDE their difficult ponies instead of sending them out on the lunge line for an hour or out to be schooled by a bigger kid or trainer then we'd have more solid pony riders.

To me there is also too much emphasis on pretty vs. effect.

Roxy SM
Sep. 18, 2009, 05:29 PM
While I definitely agree that a lot of our divisions have been dumbed down and I am also one of those people that believe that the lower divisions belong only at the local shows, I will say that these photos don't necessarily mean that these kids are amazing riders. It would be much better to see a video. I worked in Ireland for 4 months this summer and saw the pony classes that were qualifiers for the Royal Dublin Show. So 12.2 ponies jumped 1.10, 13.2 jumped 1.20, and 14.2 jumped 1.30. And for sure there were a few really awesome little riders, but for the most part the amazing half of the partnership was the pony. When I first saw that the 14.2s had to jump 1.30 I thought, wow, these kids must be really good if they can get around a 1.30 course successfully on a pony. I was very disappointed then when I watched the class and saw the kids making the same errors as you see in the pony jumpers here and the scary rounds you see in the Children's Jumpers. They were taking off way too far away, burying their ponies underneath square 1.30 oxers, losing their balance and flopping on the neck or falling backwards and using the ponies mouths to balance them, it was not pretty. And yet most of the ponies figured it out on their own and jumped around. Not always cleanly, but without as many faults as you'd think considering the ride they'd been given. Then occasionally you'd see one come in that really rode great, but the more shows I went to the more it seemed it was those same few riders that were riding so well. Also, plenty of the pony riders had many, many fabulous ponies, which I had originally thought only really happened in the US, you know a jr. with a whole string.

Hauwse
Sep. 18, 2009, 06:34 PM
Last time I checked North America took home gold and silver,may not happen again, but none the less it happened.

Don't ever be confused we are a rider producing country, what we don't produce are horses, and that is why "the europeans still be us".

Back in the day I remember all kinds of riders burning around on ponies doing courses of similiar size, heck, Linda Southern was unbeatable in the junior jumpers on a pony called tea for two at 4'3".

superpony123
Sep. 18, 2009, 07:06 PM
european show jumping with kids is really fun to watch.. SOMETIMES.

someone had a thread on here a LOOONG time ago (like, years ago) that scared the ever loving crap out of me. it was finnish show jumping, or dutch, or something. some HUGE national show. massive indoor stadium with crowd filled to the very top cheering. it was really neat. but then the riders came in. little kids on little ponies doing EXTREMELY dangerous turns and jumps. imagine if we had a national final for itty bitty jumpers in the US. because that's basically what this was. the jumps were 2'6" and under, and the ponies and kids were hardly suitable. kids too big on too small ponies. these were some of the best ponies ive ever seen to that extent as far as taking a joke is concerned! granted, half the riders fell off, and rightfully so for the types of turns they were trying to make. photos are one thing, Videos are a real eye-opener.

but we have itty bitty jumpers just like that too, so it's not like they're any better or worse :lol:

but i wouldn't say that they're ALWAYS doing the right thing. it's good to teach the kids to be bold. but not dangerous! (again, not like there arent tons of kids here in the US who whip their horse around the jumpers so dangerously while everyone standing around the ring silently prays they come out alive)

anyway, the only thing that REALLY bugs me about european riders is they dont have their hair up in nets :D seriously. thats my hugest pet peeve in riding--floppy pony tails.

pk1027
Sep. 18, 2009, 07:33 PM
I adore these pictures. Where in the US do you see pony classes with a water jump in it? Coming from Finland I can say that riding is just so much more widespread and available in Europe. As for the vests, all children under 18 who are jumping are required to wear one in shows in Finland, this I do not believe is a bad thing. I just think horsemanship is stressed more Europe versus the US and there is a lot more opportunity for kids to ride. To me it seems as if showing and horses are just a lot more affordable because of the prevalence horses have in the culture. When I visit Finland there is regularly a horse show result section in the local newspaper, listing all the results as well as pictures. To me this only stresses how more accepted horses are in Europe compared to the "cowboys" in the US.

EquineRacers
Sep. 18, 2009, 08:20 PM
To be quiet honest, I don't care for their style. Heels up, some legs back, etc. But very diciplined!

spmoonie
Sep. 18, 2009, 08:56 PM
Go to an event here or a Pony Club Rally. Kids really can ride in America.

In my experience, the kids at Pony Club have guts, but dont necessarily know how to put a good course together. I used to ride with a group of Pony Club girls. While they had super horsemanship skills, when it came down to finesse and accuracy on course, it just wasnt there. They demonstrated a similar style to the European children in the pictures. Yes, they look nice in the pictures, but I too would like to see a video. Of course, not saying this is true of all Pony Clubbers; Im just basing this off of my experiences. :)

grandprixjump
Sep. 18, 2009, 09:35 PM
Where, of course, I did everything, pleasure, gaming, and the JUMPERS. My best jumper was a mare that stood 14.2 and maybe 1/4 inch. She jumped in the open 4' jumpers, and normally cleaned house.
Actually they Calcutta the jumpers when she first started and my dad bought her for $.25 (yes, a Quarter). The second show he had to pay about $1, after that he couldn't afford to buy her, people knew what she was capable of. Went to the 1972 App Worlds and got 6th place, some people think she might have been drugged her last night, was very sluggish for her regular way....

We trimmed her feet a little short one time and took her to do pony jumpers..

florida foxhunter
Sep. 18, 2009, 10:07 PM
Glad to see a "pinto" in those photos.....at least we're up against color and class......haha!!

gmv567
Sep. 18, 2009, 10:10 PM
Not to mention they have true pony jumper classes abroad to teach kids! At least on the West Coast we don't have pony jumper classes that can even touch that height, and it's a shame. We had the most amazing medium in our barn that evented through training, and schooled prelim which is 3'6", more then capable of the height and complexity but the speed was too much for something that had to be on his tip toes to be 13.3hh. He needed to be sold as he was a bit much for a lesson horse, figured pony jumpers where the way to go, kids would be aggressive and forward and he would eat up the courses in a rubber D ring. He is a fabulous jumper but doesn't bascule enough to be a hunter, and likes a bit of pace. Took him to a show and the heighest pony jumper class was 2'9", the poor guy was yawning! Dudley would be in hog heaven with one of those kids on that course. :winkgrin:

Last year, I took my pony jumper to Equifest (IL/Zone 5) and the NAL class there was a true 3'6"! They looked massive when I was walking the course. None of the pony jumper classes around here are anything less than 3'3". I know that my pony hated doing the 2'9", she was better at 3'3" and 3'6".


While I definitely agree that a lot of our divisions have been dumbed down and I am also one of those people that believe that the lower divisions belong only at the local shows, I will say that these photos don't necessarily mean that these kids are amazing riders. It would be much better to see a video. I worked in Ireland for 4 months this summer and saw the pony classes that were qualifiers for the Royal Dublin Show. So 12.2 ponies jumped 1.10, 13.2 jumped 1.20, and 14.2 jumped 1.30. And for sure there were a few really awesome little riders, but for the most part the amazing half of the partnership was the pony. When I first saw that the 14.2s had to jump 1.30 I thought, wow, these kids must be really good if they can get around a 1.30 course successfully on a pony. I was very disappointed then when I watched the class and saw the kids making the same errors as you see in the pony jumpers here and the scary rounds you see in the Children's Jumpers. They were taking off way too far away, burying their ponies underneath square 1.30 oxers, losing their balance and flopping on the neck or falling backwards and using the ponies mouths to balance them, it was not pretty. And yet most of the ponies figured it out on their own and jumped around. Not always cleanly, but without as many faults as you'd think considering the ride they'd been given. Then occasionally you'd see one come in that really rode great, but the more shows I went to the more it seemed it was those same few riders that were riding so well. Also, plenty of the pony riders had many, many fabulous ponies, which I had originally thought only really happened in the US, you know a jr. with a whole string.

I AGREE... you have to give some of those ponies a ton of credit. You can see in the pictures that they don't always get the best ride.

Meredith Clark
Sep. 18, 2009, 10:37 PM
I know a great little rider that recently got a DR in stadium. Her med pony is SO game and is schooling training (rider is 11 or 12) she competes BN and the pony is the ony horse that truly has the impulsion one should at BN/N level.

However, bc she's very small (rider looks like she's 8 or 9) and bc the pony looks fast (short lil legs that move quickly, clears BN jumps by a mile, and grunts no matter what height) she gets spun

The TD told her she should put her in a kimberwick or something stronger and now the rider has become super self conscience and is holding her pony back at schooling which is causing stops...the pony never stopped!

seems like brave riders and game ponies aren't always rewarded here

dove
Sep. 18, 2009, 10:51 PM
I don't get it.

Half those kids look like they are seconds and inches away from falling off just like half the kids who do the pony and childrens jumpers here. The differences are the jumps are bigger and there are more than them. Is that why one is supposed to be impressed?

Also - a lot of those kids look SUPER old and SUPER big on those very game little ponies. And even them, who must be 16 or 17, look like they could topple off at any second.

Put the jumps up that big in the pony jumpers here, get some ponies with some scope, and tell the kids to run run run at the jumps and you'll get the same snapshots. Except the kids here would have the hair up.

I guess I'm just not impressed. But the ponies are insanely adorable!

Underdog
Sep. 18, 2009, 11:10 PM
I'll repeat.
Very good benchmark. That's what this is folks.
Period.

Got gut's?

Or just pampered with excuses over *here*.
And I won't quote the above lame response. And I'm American.

dove
Sep. 19, 2009, 12:25 AM
I'll repeat.
Very good benchmark. That's what this is folks.
Period.

Got gut's?

Or just pampered with excuses over *here*.
And I won't quote the above lame response. And I'm American.

I'm trying to figure out what made my response "lame." Go find some pictures of pony jumpers at pony finals - half of the kids will look like half of the kids from the link of this thread. The other half will look like, well, the other half. Out of control.

I make no excuses. Well, maybe just one. Those pony jumpers are, for the most part, much scopier than ours. And that is not even worth debating.

I am well aware those kids have "guts" as you say. Good for them. I repeat what I said before: put the kids over here on scopy ponies and tell them to run like hell at big jumps and they will do it. And they will look much the same. Sorry that's too "lame" for you to respond to, despite being an American and all :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Marcella
Sep. 19, 2009, 12:25 AM
http://www.ridehesten.com/Heste-billeder/Salg/PopUp/?imageId=6013_sme_01_IMG_9056.JPG1E39C13C-F29A-47DC-B60C-5D85A472EA4A&catalogId=14&catalogEntryId=18481&searchModeIsSplit=True&searchString=

This kid really impressed me. That pony is jumping some huge jumps, and that kid looks like the next Marcus Beerbaum. If I didn't know these were ponies, I would say that was an awesome Jr. jumper.

Foxtrot's
Sep. 19, 2009, 12:42 AM
Dove pretty well said wht I was thinking. Big riders on small (cute as buttons) ponies but without the George Morris style and function. Lots of derring-do, same as the British kids and those who develop through hunting and/or eventing.

DancingQueen
Sep. 19, 2009, 02:37 AM
I've been there, I've done that.

I showed my 3 small ponies over 3,0- 3,6' jumps my one medium over 4,0 and my 4 larges over up to 4,6 jumps.
We did GP style courses and we did them well.

Most of the higher level pony riders in Europe will not have their heels as far down or their backs as arched as their american counter parts but they jumped those jumps, and most of them jumped them clean as often as any American GP rider went clean over their jumps.
The pony riders back home take things very seriously, most of us would be able to walk our own courses and tell you the strides, taking downgrades, uphills, spooky shadows and spooky jumps into effect from about 12 years and on.
No, we didn't always look the part but we got the job done.

This is not the biggest thing though.

On top of that, most of the kids you see in the pics take complete care of their own ponies at shows. Muck their own stalls, do their own feeding and mixing of branmashes and supplements, poultice and wrap their own ponies legs, pull their own ponies manes etc. We trotted our own ponies up for the vet (most shows at home have a FEI style trot up) Sometimes kids even do their own entries and checking in.

If the pony is braided you can bet your ass the kid did it her or himsself. We hand walked when we got there or at rest stops if needed, fed our own ponies, groomed and tacked them etc. Our parents took of work and drove all night to a show, we slept in the living quarters of the truck all night so when we got there it was all on us. No pony ever died from it.

You say there's no fashion trends with us. I beg to differ. There's both dress trends and behavioural trends. We wanted to be cool but it was OK if we weren't sporting the latest as long as we won. We were all on a budget and most of us knew to order the least expensive meal on the menu of we went out for dinner with our parents on a horse show saturday. However, if your parents took care of your pony for you (it was basically unheard of) you were a big sissy and gained very little respect in the group. The girl who always took that little extra care, I remember her name (Linda Gustavson), gained our respect even though she was a dork.
Although she was otherwise very uncool nobody even in the brat pack would ever say a single bad word about her. She took better care of her ponies then any of us, (we all did the same she did but only because we had to). She did it because she cared that little bit more and so it was understood that she was excempt from any meangirl or bully drama that of course also rolls around a horseshow filled with teens and tweens.

Also most of the kids (at least in the larges, they are a bit older and have had a few ponies already) have been to the clinic, sat up with a colic sometimes, even been out in the middle of the night handwalking it. etc. They have been up schlepping buckets form the gas station when the water froze and out bailing the barn from water when the pipes unfroze and nobody remembered to turn the water off. All of us have seen a pony we loved go down the road in a trailer to their new home with a new kid, most of us were asked for our advice on how to ride it. Many of us also saw a pony on the trailer for their very last trip.

We were there for the farrier, helped carry feed bags in, rode the tractor when the hay was cut and the wagon to stack the bales when it was dry.
We all had our ponies at home and had a ll the benefits that ionly professionals kids get over here.

This is IMO the biggest difference. What we learned on course can be learnt in a few years of hard practice if you want it. America does as good a job of preparing their young riders to do big jumps on horses in form of the EQ just form a different angle.

What we came to understand about responsibility for both our ponies and ourselves, hard work and dedication, dreaming big, falling hard and standing up again with noone (except perhaps our little sister if we had one) to blame for it, doing what we did and taking the consequenses for our own actions, this is the lesson to be learned.

The American system often doesn't allow for this. We pride ourselves in having a top barn who asks of our students to groom and tack up for themselves. The parents think they foster their kids in responsibility by asking thm to go to the barn at least 5 days out of the week.

Back home we had to be there every day morning and night, feeding, mucking, grooming, riding, getting ready for shows and also dealing with not so pleasant things like injuries etc. We lived through it all.

Many of my peers quit riding at a higher level but most of them are still in it even if in a smaller scale.
What we did as kids changed us to the point where it's not so much a matter of wanting something as it is a matter of not being able to survive without it. That is why we are still in the horse business some way somehow.

This same attitude has very little room to flourish here unless you are lucky enough to be born the child of a professional of some sort.

spmoonie
Sep. 19, 2009, 10:19 AM
IMO, when it comes down to it, Americans take more pride and put more focus in their riders, while the Europeans seem to put more focus in overall good horsemanship. American riders ride well, but not many braid their own horse or have been up all night hand walking a sick horse. Many American riders cant walk their own course without a trainer, and many cant set their own jumps at home (of course, not saying ALL, just many). It baffles me. BUT at the same time, some of those pictures of the European ponies are pretty scary.


ETA: And I'm not saying there arent American riders with great horsemanship skills. Im just making a general statement based on this thread and my experiences.

findeight
Sep. 19, 2009, 10:25 AM
Apples and oranges. Again.

We do not have Pony Jumpers at most shows, when offered it rarely fills and they can go in any of the Open Jumper classes if they want.

Honestly, don't see that this is why the Europeans "always kick our butt" (do they?). Maybe these kids are having more fun and are less regimented. But you can find fun shows and kids ripping around backyard type courses over here too.

I also have some concern for the possibility of horse/Pony injury over some of these jumps, nothing like a foot thru one of those crates.

fair judy
Sep. 19, 2009, 11:08 AM
i seem to recall a massive train wreck over a video where a big bad trainer was letting his students jump too high!!!!!

i just scanned these photos, but i sure did not see many using an automatic release.

i completely disagree that the europeans kick our butts.

Chylli
Sep. 19, 2009, 10:00 PM
I still think it's funny that people think that horses need us to jump a fence. I have seen bad rider photos from Hunters/Jumpers/Eventers and the horse still jumps....baffling!

MissIndependence
Sep. 20, 2009, 01:41 AM
PLUS...do you really think the European's sell us their best horses??? Really???:no::rolleyes:

THAT is the reason the Europeans beat us. When you go to Europe's biggest competitions, they are copying the style of our American riders in many ways. Sorry - but 90% of the whole thing boils down to the horses. All the people riding at that level are amazing....and all of them are accurate, and winners. The quality of the horses are that deciding factor. Sorry - IMO :).

Don't get too romantic about European horsemanship. They're over there drugging their horses, poling them, and generally doing everything that happens over here. There are just a heck of lot better and bigger breeding operations. The sport is bigger in the general public - therefor - more easily supported and more ingrained in society. However - I sat in the stands at Olympia last year and watched A LOT of Europe's finest pony jumper kids missing and crashing and generally scaring the crap out of me. It seems that bad distances can be universal :). On the other hand - I got to watch 34 riders have virtually flawlessly ridden rounds in the World Cup and GP. ALL of the riders were incredible....from all over the world. It came down to the best horses.....

hunter-eventer-hunter
Sep. 20, 2009, 10:44 AM
I wonder if the previous poster has ANY idea what the penalty from the police for animcal cruelty would be for poling a horse in Scandanavia? forget about horse show sanctions....

The point of the kids on the ponies is they are allowed to make mistakes on a real course. And yes some are a bit harry to watch, but learning to ride is a bit scarry and we have forgotten that. And most of the kids of the Danish Championships did not fall off. Most got a funcky jump or two, pulled themselves back into the tack, and went to the next fence.

The last GM clinic I was at he was FURIOUS that the very accomplished riders (many pony finalists amoung them) had no idea what to do when he set up a reall uneven stride. Do you hold or gallop? And what do you do when you know the horse is taking off a stide early?

When we talk about the american style of riding; it can be the best in the world. But I think that we are talking about a school that produced great riders in the past. McClain Ward is the best and last great American rider to come out of that school, imho.

We have discussion in the H/J world about what to do when you trainer won't let you put your taxk box out because it isn't in her colors :mad:

That is not HOW you make a horseman and a rider. You learn to do that by falling off, making some silly choices, walking your own horse when it is sick or hurt, and being a kid who is more concerned with getting around the course then how prett you look. I was a pretty good Eq rider as a kid, but my old school trainer made us gallup, fall off, jhold the horse for the vet and the farrier, jump solid obstacles outside,learn to wrap, ride a western horse, ride a gaited horse, and all that jazz.

When I started eventing after 10 years in hunter/jumper ring, I kicked ass. I could read a horse, the ground, a stride, the whole nine yards. People who has evented for a long time were in awe....That is what being a H/J rider is about. You can do ANY style of riding if you have a old school Ameican seat.
That is not what the juniors are learning today.

Same problem in the eventers. The kids who are eventing today never hunted, never galloped ponies in the back yard, never built stupid fences to jump their ponies over. Many times when they fall off for the first time it is on course :no:

But is was because I grew up riding like these kids and not some overly papmered Eq Princess or DQ.

findeight
Sep. 20, 2009, 11:52 AM
When we talk about the american style of riding; it can be the best in the world. But I think that we are talking about a school that produced great riders in the past. McClain Ward is the best and last great American rider to come out of that school, imho.

The kids who are eventing today never hunted, never galloped ponies in the back yard, never built stupid fences to jump their ponies over. Many times when they fall off for the first time it is on course :no:

But is was because I grew up riding like these kids and not some overly papmered Eq Princess or DQ.


Little early to proclaim a still under 40 year old as the last great American rider out of that school...and what school would that be given his main teacher growing up?

Problem with stupid fences is we have changed out attitude on them. No longer care to see the horse/Pony taken out by an avoidable injury...much less tolerance for that type of thing then back when.

And it's still not being realistic about the fact the majority of young riders have no access to any kind of Hunting and don't have anyplace to go hack out for more then a mile or two, if that. We have changed but it's just different, some for the better some for the worse, but mostly just different.

And whoever thinks just because they are Europeans they don't have a problem with the (it won't test) drug du jour, pole (they have come up with a remote controlled poling device) use shock collars and other nasties needs to pull their head out of the sand. They have about the same problems as we do over here with the unethical trying to take short cuts out behind the barn when nobody is looking.

hunter-eventer-hunter
Sep. 20, 2009, 12:33 PM
Problem with stupid fences is we have changed out attitude on them. No longer care to see the horse/Pony taken out by an avoidable injury...much less tolerance for that type of thing then back when.



Stupid and silly fences does not mean dangerous fences. Silly things are brooms across muck buckets and verticals that don't have flower boxes to stand the horse back and spilnter belly. Obstacles that aren't 100% inviting make a better mount and jockey.

Dangerous has no place in this. Jus because a fence is a challenge does not make it dangerous, per se.

Tiki
Sep. 20, 2009, 01:05 PM
Don't ever be confused we are a rider producing country, what we don't produce are horses, and that is why "the europeans still be us". Sorry, but that's just NOT TRUE anymore. We are producing horses that are equal to the best in Germany. Just ask any of the inspectors who are coming over now to inspect and register horses. At the inspection on Sept. 18th, the inspector said, "I don't know what to do now. We raised the standards to get Premium and all you breeders just upped the quality. Where do we go from here"? Just about all of the registries inspectors have said that the best of our foals are as good as the best Europe produces - AND we're now also producing top sport ponies too.

findeight
Sep. 20, 2009, 02:02 PM
We've hashed this out beofre and we HAVE the horses because we do win.

The biggest problem is our riders having to run from ring to ring coaching clients, schooling horses and showing others...I personally witnessed a very big name International rider showing a youngster at 2'6" and another rising talent also entered in the WC just a few hours before that class went in the new Indoor.

European International riders have less to do plus get more financial support and don't have to buy what they ride on that level (or sweat putting a syndicate together). We'd have more depth if our riders didn't have to choose between representing the USA abroad or running their business at home and keeping the owners of all the other horses happy.

Does not matter where the horse came from either-if we are buying their culls, we are coming back and beating them with the same cull they sold.

Kareen
Sep. 20, 2009, 02:35 PM
European International riders have less to do plus get more financial support and don't have to buy what they ride on that level (or sweat putting a syndicate together). We'd have more depth if our riders didn't have to choose between representing the USA abroad or running their business at home and keeping the owners of all the other horses happy.

Does not matter where the horse came from either-if we are buying their culls, we are coming back and beating them with the same cull they sold.

This is probably the most respectless and rude post I've read in a long time. I'm sorry but how dare you? May I ask when was the last time you made a living as an equestrian professional in Europe? Your statement is uninformed and a slap in the face of any accomplished hard working rider over here. Same holds true for the breeding part. Do you really think US breeders are dull and ignorant enough to buy Europe's *culls* like you call them and import them to found a marebase with? May I ask what you have ever bred that stands out in competition? Your attitude needs power-shrinking if such thing exists. Get real. The quality of horses produced in the US probably went up because many of the breeders know what they are doing and they have worked hard. Those improvements didn't fall down on them like rain from the sky.
And to say our top riders don't have to work hard is just - I'm lacking appropriate and printable words. Educate yourself. Please!!!

foursocks
Sep. 21, 2009, 03:42 PM
Hear, hear. Seriously- that was just weird.

Horses are very much a part of daily life for many more people in Europe than here, it is not unusual that they would be more comfortable doing more challenging things, kids and adults. As many of us know, before American turned into a lawsuit-happy nation, and before we sub-urbaned ourselves out of land for keeping horses, many of us grew up jumping big fences, taking care of our ponies and horses from start to finish, devoting all of our time to it instead of doing multiple other activities- and not thinking twice about it.

If you ride more and are allowed to ride with more variation (galloping out in the fields, riding green ponies and horses, etc.), you will most likely be a more competent rider. If you also get good instruction and have access to talented horses, you can be a great rider. Pair that with learning the art of horsemanship through daily experience and you have an opportunity that many American kids no longer have. I feel lucky that I did, and sad for the kids here who do not have that experience. Good horsemanship and good riding is not limited to one's country- it is, however, limited by the type of horse culture one grows up in (or doesn't).

lesyl
Sep. 21, 2009, 04:07 PM
Sorry, but that's just NOT TRUE anymore. We are producing horses that are equal to the best in Germany. Just ask any of the inspectors who are coming over now to inspect and register horses. At the inspection on Sept. 18th, the inspector said, "I don't know what to do now. We raised the standards to get Premium and all you breeders just upped the quality. Where do we go from here"? Just about all of the registries inspectors have said that the best of our foals are as good as the best Europe produces - AND we're now also producing top sport ponies too.
Off topic, but I love love love a couple horses at your barn based on your web postings.

It is a challenge here within the states to see horses as something other than a hobby. I can't count the number of threads where posters commented about non-horse people's remarks along the lines of "I thought you had out-grown horses ... ."

From what I have seen, we have both good riders and good horses, but travel to Europe is a challenge financially beyond the means of some very talented riders. I don't think this is any easier on the other side of the Atlantic, but just in general the travel costs to Europe are challenging to meet. I do really like that this is a world sport and that as others have posted, it is one with opportunities for a lifetime of learning.

Trixie
Sep. 21, 2009, 04:15 PM
We have discussion in the H/J world about what to do when you trainer won't let you put your taxk box out because it isn't in her colors

That is not HOW you make a horseman and a rider. You learn to do that by falling off, making some silly choices, walking your own horse when it is sick or hurt, and being a kid who is more concerned with getting around the course then how prett you look.

Um, these things are not mutually exclusive. You can have a trainer that insists on a pristine barn set up at the horse shows WHILE teaching people to really ride.

Nonetheless, I don't disagree with you regarding becoming a horseman and rider. Kids today ARE stretched. They DON'T necessarily have the land to gallop on as there used to be. Not everyone has the opportunity to hunt or play with ponies all day long. And I know most trainers have had at least one student whose parents want them to WIN! without putting in the work.

I think sometimes we forget that horse showing is a sport that you can do for most of your life. It's not like you can't become a successful pro if you don't win (or compete in) medal finals - same as you're not going to be destitute if you don't go to Harvard. The most well-rounded greats in this country have no problem doing anything from a dressage test to foxhunting. And yes, I do still see that around. It's just not, perhaps, as prevalent as it once was.

Lori
Sep. 21, 2009, 04:26 PM
We could have been contenders. ;)
Seeing the same in the 70s here in the US wasn''t unusual. 7-10 year olds doing 3' on ponies and handling double reins if necessary. (ponies weren't push button, more stop-n-dump, LOL)
Things got dumbed down here.
US parents have the kids who do it all...and parents who need to work 2 jobs....no time for riding 10-12 hours per week.

I could not have said it better. I am so happy that I learned to ride back when you did things bareback on the stop-n-dumpers. It taught me more than any trainer could have.

(Unfortunatley for us, the USA has dumbed down a lot of things in our lifetime alone.)

Marcella
Sep. 22, 2009, 01:05 AM
This is probably the most respectless and rude post I've read in a long time. I'm sorry but how dare you? May I ask when was the last time you made a living as an equestrian professional in Europe? Your statement is uninformed and a slap in the face of any accomplished hard working rider over here. Same holds true for the breeding part. Do you really think US breeders are dull and ignorant enough to buy Europe's *culls* like you call them and import them to found a marebase with? May I ask what you have ever bred that stands out in competition? Your attitude needs power-shrinking if such thing exists. Get real. The quality of horses produced in the US probably went up because many of the breeders know what they are doing and they have worked hard. Those improvements didn't fall down on them like rain from the sky.
And to say our top riders don't have to work hard is just - I'm lacking appropriate and printable words. Educate yourself. Please!!!

I don't think Findeight was being rude at all. The American riders not only have to get themselves ready to show in the Grand Prix class at the show, but are running from show ring to schooling ring prepping thier clients that pay their salary, because the purses for the jumper classes here cannot support you and an entire barn of horses. Of course to compete at the international level you have to work hard. We all know that. But in terms of doing less, I think the American riders actually spend less time riding because they are having to coach the adult amateur hunters, school the hunter horses, get the pony medal kid going, and then maybe have time to bring along some of their own jumpers. Having to finance all of this is a full-time job in and of itself.

And then, what do you do? Take the chance to go compete internationally and lose all the money from teaching your riding lessons and going to shows with clients? Then how do you eat without that steady stream of money coming in? USEF isn't going to bankroll anyone.

Edit: It is just different here for the top riders...no insults meant at all in terms of one side having to work more...here having to balance between the hunters (where most of your clients probably come from and show at) and then ride your jumpers.

blueskye
Sep. 22, 2009, 05:14 AM
I can't answer personally for Kareen, but I think her point might have been that professionals over here also have a lot on their plates in addition to competing.

However, from what I've observed in Europe, there seems to be more of a distinction between a riding school, where the novice and intermediate non-horse owning people learn to ride, and a training yard, with young horses and competition horses.

A younger pro coming up the ranks is going to apprentice with an older pro either for a short while in both sorts of places or the entire time in whichever peaks his/her interest more. Then they take their exams and get licensed before they hang out their own shingle . However, once they are on their own, they have to bust their butts to get clients just like young pros in the USA... unless they were already racking up big wins as an apprentice (not likely since they would have been competing on the younger and second or third string sale horses).

I have looked into the exams here in Germany and the first level of proficiency for a pro seems to be something like a 2nd level dressage test and jumping around 3'6" - 4'. Back when I was interested, though, my German skils were frankly "schei├če" so maybe Kareen could eleaborate on that. I do feel that this minimal level of competency for professionals does raise the bar for the entire sport.

Amateurs and juniors who do make the leap from riding school pupil to horse owner, seem to be more independent. Maybe they keep their horse at home, maybe they board at a livery yard. In either case they don't seem to take frequent lessons, rather they spend a lot of time on their own. When I observed haul in lessons, the first question from the trainer/coach is "So how did you do at the show last weekend?"

Another big misconception which might be irritating the heck out of Kareen, is this crazy idea many COTH'ers hold that sport horse breeding is sponsored by the government in Europe. I cannot speak for every country, but this is not the case in Switzerland or Germany. Maybe there was great support in the past, but no more.

Lastly, as several of you have mentioned, the "go to court" mentality just isn't so prevalent around here. People take more physical risks in general. We ride our bikes and our jumpers without helmets. This has got to give riding instructors a little more breathing room. I know for sure that as a young pro in the last decade I never sent my students out unattended to the grass ring in the middle of the back 40, where the "big" jump course is still set up the way my instructor did when I was a kid.

Mozart
Sep. 22, 2009, 11:49 AM
Have you checked the FEI rider rankings lately? The Euro dressage riders are still kicking our collective N.American butts (with the exception of Steffen Peters) but in jumping..N.Americans are edging their way up in the stats. Especially if you are flexible and count Meredith Michaels Beerbaum as a product of a N.American system (which I do ;)...all the Beerbaum help in the world would not have made her the rider she is had she rode like crap when she got there...)

My unscientific prediction is that that trend will continue. As for the Danish pictures...adorable kids on adorable ponies...I like the concept of introducing water early in the game..but those ain't no automatic releases...;)

magnolia73
Sep. 22, 2009, 01:39 PM
I think that we do beat people. In showjumping. And that the best team will cycle in showjumping. You can bet the German team is regrouping the same way we did, and you can bet they will be back in force. They'll get better, trounce us, then we will get better and trounce back. We will have cycles where the right riders have the right horses- Beezie, Judgement, McLain, Sapphire and we will have times when the best riders have nothing of note to ride. In germany, Shutterfly will retire, but Ludger Beerbaum will have a new star. Great new riders will emerge.

I think it is probably quite similar for the top tier of riders in the Us vs Europe. I can't quite see Mclain Ward or Beezie Madden skimping on a world cup warm up class to coach a 2'6 hunter. Or even a talented junior. I doubt Laura Kraut spends her weeks putting changes on CANTER horses or teaching young riders to jump cross rails. They may do those things as they have time... but their focus clearly seems to be the business of assembling, making and maintaining top tier jumpers. People like Georgina Bloomburg.... have some nice advantages. And I doubt the second tier riders of Europe are being handed the next Shutterfly and sequestered away to focus on Grand Prixs.

Right now, our eventing team is weak- but there are lots of grumblings on rebuilding that- they'll figure it out and probably in a few years be back on top. Probably our jumpers will have spent some time losing by then.

Clearly our dressage slowly improves- not easy to compete with the dutch and germans- we will get there as only in recent years has dressage been on the radar as a path for young riders.

So no, I don't think dutch children flying around on ponies have much to do with our success (or lack of) internationally.

Void
Sep. 23, 2009, 02:16 AM
Many American riders cant walk their own course without a trainer,

LOL I had to do that once at a Medal (IDK where my trainer was but we had to walk the course THEN) What I did was count out strides while behind a BNT and her gaggle of Eq-lings and listened furtively as she discussed course tactics. I think it worked pretty brilliantly :D

Kareen
Sep. 23, 2009, 06:11 AM
Thank you bluesky you've got my post absolutely right. I also would disagree that 'Europe is beating the US' in showjumping. As far as my memory serves (which covers about 25 'thinking' years) the American show jumper teams have always been a force to reckon within international showjumping? Thinking Joe Fargis or Conrad Homfeld years. GM, Beezie Madden and all these riders were never really unsuccessful internationally were they?
Besides I tend to count Canada to N.A. and Canadian jumpers have stood their position internationally for a loooong time as well no? Surely there are many differences in both riding style and training system but I think nowadays with so many people being in a position to relocate for a few years and f.i. train and show in Europe and others immigrating to N.A. from here there is more and more blending together and with courses getting more and more technical the American style of riding is rapidly gaining ground as these courses require a horse that keeps thinking while in our traditional training system jumper riders tend to turn the horse into a bare functioning tool which doesn't seem to work as well with today's courses.

Mozart
Sep. 23, 2009, 11:51 AM
and with courses getting more and more technical the American style of riding is rapidly gaining ground as these courses require a horse that keeps thinking while in our traditional training system jumper riders tend to turn the horse into a bare functioning tool which doesn't seem to work as well with today's courses.

I think you are absolutely correct about this. N. American riders are getting their horses more rideable, adjustable and are realizing they need GASP dressage to ride these courses and the Europeans are realizing their horses need to think for themselves too. I.M. ever-so-humble O.

The styles are definitely starting to blend. To my eye, it seems as though Leslie Howard is the last true N. American style hold out....and how she can get around those courses with loops in her reins is mind boggling!

DancingQueen
Sep. 24, 2009, 01:05 AM
I also did not find findeights post to be rude.

It is a problem for many US riders that they have to run between rings and choose between keeping their clients happy and keeping themselves well prepared. I really don't see why this statement should be percieved that way.

On a whole, and yes I have spent a considerable amount of time on the european circuit, European riders don't struggle any less but it is a different situation. Most European riders will not have 40 customers but rather be more involved in the sales aspect. This can for sure also be stressful and many riders can't afford to keep the potential top horses they have. They have to sell to support the other 20. They may also feel that they are better off selling to somebody that has the time and money to take the horse all the way rather then show a supercrack in smaller money classes just to keep the business going.

There's plenty of glass celings also for European riders looking to break through, just of a different sort. For any rider it takes more then skill, you have to also get a lucky break in finding the horse of a lifetime and you need to get to the point where you can support your own support team. Here it might be in form of finding and keeping good assistant trainers, back home it might be more in finding and keeping a good string of riders for the lower stuff.

I agree with Kareen that Europe is not kicking "our" butt in any way. We hold up quite nicely. Also as I think I said in my prior post, I love the ponies at home. They gave me a lot of experience in jumping big jumps and technical courses but I had to go back and learn how to perfect the style and efficiency aspect of riding. I think that the hunter/eq gives our riders as strong a base for future sucess as the pony jumpers do back home.
Just from a different angle. Here kids learn how to ride well and find nice smooth jumps in the Eq and then later learn how to ride fast over big jumps.

Again, the biggest problem here is IMO that most of the kids basically quit when they go to college. There's still a big enough number of kids that stick with it and have professional aspirations though so I'm not too concerned.

One thing (about buying horses in Europe) that actually came up in conversation today (about finding somebody a high junior horse and the $$$ involved) was that Europeans do in fact sell theyr best horses overseas. One example is Helena Lundbacks mount So What. Her owners sold before Sydney and she ended up going with what should have been her "second" horse Mynta.

The horse never came back to show in the real big stuff since he was sold to an amateur. We sell our best horses but it is up to the individual buyer to put a rider on top that can campaign the horse to it's best ability.

Carol Ames
Sep. 24, 2009, 01:15 AM
s jumping big jumps, on ponies, but in good classic form with automatic releases...
:confused:
I don't know how you call this "classic form":no:from what I could see none of them had good base of support/ leg as would be expected from an American who had come up through the ranks of eq classes

Carol Ames
Sep. 24, 2009, 01:27 AM
kids jumping big jumps:confused:

Carol Ames
Sep. 24, 2009, 01:33 AM
Beezie Madden and all these riders were never really unsuccessful internationally were they?

YES, they have been very successful with olympic andWEG medals; plus numerous GP and World games placings; They do VERY well:yes: against the world:cool:.

Carol Ames
Sep. 24, 2009, 01:34 AM
Beezie Madden and all these riders were never really unsuccessful internationally were they?

YES, they have been very successful with Olympic andWEG medals; plus numerous GP and World games placings; They do VERY well:yes: against the world:cool:.

DancingQueen
Sep. 24, 2009, 01:36 AM
Look again.
Yes there's some kids getting left (but you will see that if you go through any book of pictures from any big class here too) and many of them are bigger on their ponies then we are used to seeing here.
However, go through the pictures again (I just did), try to not pay attention to hteir unusual dress code, imagine them in US fashion and look at them closely. You will notice that many of these kids are very balanced and do in fact perform a very good automatic release. In a few pictures the kid look like he/she is a little behind but is also sthretching their arms forward as much as possible to give his/her pony as much freedom as possible to clear the jump.
Remember this is not a hunter class. The ponies are jumping at least 3,3' for the smalls (maybe higher) 3,6' -3,9' for the mediums and 4,0'-4,3' for the larges.

maddyh
Sep. 24, 2009, 01:41 AM
As much as I would like to say I love to see the pictures of those kids jumping around, I can't. They don't seem especially talented to me and some of them seem on the verge of an accident. I grew up riding without a lot of supervision and we rode like we could never possibly get hurt. Luckily, we didn't. Now, however, with three equestrian daughters who have witnessed the terrible, long-term fallout from a "simple" fall by a very accomplished rider fron their barn, I can't stress safety enough. My oldest daughter is doing the 4' jumpers and she worked really hard to get there. LOTS of work on the flat and LOTS of work at lower fences. She has no fear, but I am smart enough to know that things can change in an instant. I trust in her ability and I trust her horse, but I am glad that she and her sisters are learning to ride in an environment that isn't particularly worried about whther or not the Europeans are beating us.

RyuEquestrian
Sep. 24, 2009, 06:41 AM
I asked Tim Stockdale about this and amongst some other points, he did commend the U.S for their Big Eq Circuit. He had just been to the Syracuse Invitational last year and had never seen the Maclay. He said the level of riding in that class and the idea of 14-18 year olds doing the Equitation was excellent, he wished they would have something similar in England so that juniors learn the discipline and quietness necessary for the Equitation.

EventFan
Sep. 24, 2009, 09:36 AM
IMO, when it comes down to it, Americans take more pride and put more focus in their riders, while the Europeans seem to put more focus in overall good horsemanship. American riders ride well, but not many braid their own horse or have been up all night hand walking a sick horse. Many American riders cant walk their own course without a trainer, and many cant set their own jumps at home (of course, not saying ALL, just many). It baffles me. BUT at the same time, some of those pictures of the European ponies are pretty scary.


ETA: And I'm not saying there arent American riders with great horsemanship skills. Im just making a general statement based on this thread and my experiences.

I beg to differ. This may be your experience, but I certainly do not find it to be the norm.

sisu27
Sep. 24, 2009, 12:02 PM
Thank you bluesky you've got my post absolutely right. I also would disagree that 'Europe is beating the US' in showjumping. As far as my memory serves (which covers about 25 'thinking' years) the American show jumper teams have always been a force to reckon within international showjumping? Thinking Joe Fargis or Conrad Homfeld years. GM, Beezie Madden and all these riders were never really unsuccessful internationally were they?
Besides I tend to count Canada to N.A. and Canadian jumpers have stood their position internationally for a loooong time as well no? Surely there are many differences in both riding style and training system but I think nowadays with so many people being in a position to relocate for a few years and f.i. train and show in Europe and others immigrating to N.A. from here there is more and more blending together and with courses getting more and more technical the American style of riding is rapidly gaining ground as these courses require a horse that keeps thinking while in our traditional training system jumper riders tend to turn the horse into a bare functioning tool which doesn't seem to work as well with today's courses.

Well thank you for counting Canada as part of North America....I hadn't heard it was up for debate ;)

Speaking of Canadian jumper riders...as far as I can tell the big difference in success is all about the horse. Period. Ian Millar proves my point. He was the best in the world with Ben and has had some ebb and flow as far as horse flesh goes since Ben and thus so has his world ranking. Eric has been around for ages and did well on Cagney but now is up on a once-in-a-lifetime horse. Number 1/2 in the world. Our riders are GOOD. The difference is in the horse talent.

Point is, the NA system can and does work. I hate what the hunters are now, I wish Pony Jumpers were bigger here (in both senses), I am often unimpressed with the level of Horsemanship I see....but we are still producing great riders....warts and all.

findeight
Sep. 24, 2009, 02:01 PM
The styles are definitely starting to blend. To my eye, it seems as though Leslie Howard is the last true N. American style hold out....and how she can get around those courses with loops in her reins is mind boggling!


Couple of points here...and Kareen, I don't think they are culls. At all. But a substantial number of COTHers always bring up "they never sell us their best" and it's BS. You misunderstood what I wrote when I suggested to those who always say we buy the "rejects", if they are rejects, we come back and beat them on the same "rejects". So they are not. But it's almost a cliche to say they are and has been on this BB for years. Unsupported by fact but that never stops anybody from making a sweeping statement.

I quoted the LH remark because that is exactly who I watched in that 2'6" ring about 6 hours before that WC qualifier in the new Indoor at the KHP last Friday. In white breeches and a distinctly Jumper style jacket because she was also showing other Jumpers that afternoon and, no doubt, doing some coaching and teaching. The other I saw, the local talent on the rise did quite well in that WC on two horses. He was also in whites in that 2'6" ring and probably rode at least a half dozen in various rings, coached a few more around then gave lessons after the clients got there. THEN prepped and rode the 2 WC horses. Full plate.

Personally seen MGE run from ring to ring coaching students wearing white breeches and a red coat then hop on Perrin for a major $$$$$$ event.

Nobody who is involved with horses is any kind of slacker...but I don't see the major European stars knee deep in clients and their horses at all levels. Maybe because they just don't have those levels at their major events and we do.

Comparisons with Dressage are...well...impossible given their own controversies lately.

Kareen
Sep. 24, 2009, 02:29 PM
Thank you for the clarification. Makes a lot of sense. Sorry for getting you wrong :)

magnolia73
Sep. 24, 2009, 02:39 PM
Nobody who is involved with horses is any kind of slacker...but I don't see the major European stars knee deep in clients and their horses at all levels. Maybe because they just don't have those levels at their major events and we do.

But you don't get to observe US riders in Europe. Surely they aren't running around there in the 2'6 ring. And euro riders in the US are here on a special occasion- we don't see them at their day to day. How do euro riders pay their rent?

We could use more special days- Sunday is the GP and that is it. Special shows like the Bobcat Cup. Maybe our qualifiers need to be held on days with no other classes as a standalone.

gasrgoose
Sep. 24, 2009, 04:39 PM
Nobody who is involved with horses is any kind of slacker

I've seen plenty of people who are involved with horses that are the text book definition of slackers and their horses and performance reflect this. Now, if what you meant was that nobody who is involved with horses at the Grand Prix level is a slacker, well you might be correct. But go to any horse show and you can find a herd of slackers. Some of them call themselves trainers, some call themselves judges, some call themselves riders, some call themselves horse traders, some call themselves farriers and so on. But there is no absent of slackers in the horse world; some days it would seem the horse world attracts them.

ontarget
Sep. 24, 2009, 04:51 PM
But you don't get to observe US riders in Europe. Surely they aren't running around there in the 2'6 ring. And euro riders in the US are here on a special occasion- we don't see them at their day to day. How do euro riders pay their rent?

We could use more special days- Sunday is the GP and that is it. Special shows like the Bobcat Cup. Maybe our qualifiers need to be held on days with no other classes as a standalone.

Euro riders pay their rent by having tons of sponsors and by having owners who pay them big $$ to train/ride their nice horses.

My two guys were with a BNR in Europe for several years competing at the 1.30m and 1.40m level by the end. He never rode them or competed them because they weren't really "ready" for him yet, even when they were doing well at 1.40m. Instead, his nephew rode the horses and they were very slowly brought along because there was no huge rush to have them jumping 1.40m by the time they were 7. BNR had plenty of other horses to keep him busy in the mean time.

No, they are not spending their time on 2'6" rings, and they are not spending their time on clients who complain if their groom was five minutes late tacking up their horses, either.

I completely agree with you on having standalone GPs, but as we are discussing in the email thread, it still will come to nothing without marketing and publicity.

nomeolvides
Sep. 24, 2009, 05:46 PM
Euro riders pay their rent by having tons of sponsors and by having owners who pay them big $$ to train/ride their nice horses.
Way to make it sound easy for riders in Europe! :p

ontarget
Sep. 24, 2009, 05:50 PM
Haha, woops. Would saying not all Euro riders make it better? Let me change that to "the BNRs in Europe who I have observed from up close." ;)

findeight
Sep. 24, 2009, 05:58 PM
But you don't get to observe US riders in Europe. Surely they aren't running around there in the 2'6 ring. And euro riders in the US are here on a special occasion- we don't see them at their day to day. How do euro riders pay their rent?



Well, no, there are no 2'6" Hunter classes in Europe and few under 1m Jumper classes. But they are ON THE CELL phone talking to whoever they left in charge of their home operation or talking to other stateside trainers trying to sell horses to them. Or, surprise, they are not even there because they could not go to Europe even tho they have the horses because the owners won't pay to send them and/or want them to stay stateside. That is an increasing problem, even on the International scene-horse may be long listed but owners won't send them.

How do euro riders pay for their stateside trips? They bring sale horses. WEF is a regular upscale one stop shopping for pricey, right off the plane WBs presented by huge name riders these days.

Cannot remember if it was this thread or the other related one that mentioned the upper level riders in Europe don't train academy type clientel but concentrate on only the elite level horses and owners. Here they must train lower levels to keep the business going and find horses and partners/syndicates to fund their upper level ventures.

The very few that don't, can afford not to. The rest have to keep that full plate and sacrifice some of their own dreams to keep the majority of them a reality.

Carol Ames
Sep. 24, 2009, 08:07 PM
Let's be smart about;) this :cool:, This sport is called "horse jumping" for a reason. :winkgrin:; the horse is at least :winkgrin::lol:60% of the team. IMHO the caliber of horses , and the number :confused:of them available to the Europeans is far higher than the :sadsmile:"rejects":sadsmile: they sell to Americans; ; look at all:eek: of Ludgar Berbaums'horses; even his wifes':lol:, :cool: check out the winner of the Aachen Grand Prix this year:eek:; When was last time you saw an American bred jump with such scope?:confused: Gem Twist, ridden by an adult Greg Best? and if you did, they would NOT go in the childrens' jumpers:no: or even the juniors:(; granted the European juniors turn inside and go faster, they do "cowboy" sometimes but, outride theAmericans?, no :no::mad:way;

Carol Ames
Sep. 24, 2009, 08:30 PM
And you think the European JUNIORS DO THIS? not LIKELY, HAVE YOU ridden in Europe? there is very much a division of labor there:yes:;only the grooms may saddle:mad: the horse under observation by the head instructor; :eek:many braid their own horse, NONE or have been up all night hand walking a sick horse in Europe very few,. , if any!. Many American riders cant walk their own course without a trainer, and many; many can,:yes: and do it a 2nd:D time with their coach:o/ trainer;)

Carol Ames
Sep. 24, 2009, 08:59 PM
Where o where are the automatic releases:confused:?upon closer review the one I thought might:cool: be, was NOT:(:sadsmile::o; Are we seeing things that differently:confused:?