View Full Version : Detail show records, more than DNP?
Sep. 16, 2009, 11:26 PM
If I'm looking to buy an expensive Jumper in the U.S., in six digits, you'd all agree I need to check its performance records (for any price for that matter). USEF lists placings and for all else a DNP, did not place. So I wonder is that an elimination, retiring, 20 faults or just 4? Yes I could and should ask the seller, but that assumes trust and reading about recent law suits, I'd rather be more sure? Ryegate lists Grand Prix results with placings, faults and everything else but only for GPs. Am I asking too much or are we missing something here?
Sep. 17, 2009, 12:09 AM
DNP can mean a variety of things. I think you are asking WAY too much if you expect to never see a DNP. Even amazing horses occassionally have bad days. My horses win consistently, but depending on MY riding - there are days we dont place. Just had a rail, was a slow four faulter, etc, so many things are possible. Even great consistent horses can show up many times in the DNP column. Sometimes on my High AO jumper if I had a miss and circled or dropped a rail or two in a big class, I would retire to save my horse and keep him fresh for the classic. Showed up as a DNP. I believe it is much more important to find out the overall consistency of the horse AND the rider. I also had a horse that consistently placed 5 out of 7 or 8 etc in the High AO's back east. I was very proud of his show record. At that time, the people I showed against were also doing the World Cup!!!! Winning a ribbon in that company was like winning the Olympics. You need to know the competition, the setting and get some people's real reads on the horse over time IMO. Good luck :).
Sep. 17, 2009, 12:35 AM
From a buyer's perspective I agree that it would be nice if details were listed after a DNP (such as "Voluntary Withdrawal," "elimination," or an actual numerical value representing the total number of faults).
I do agree with MissI, though. I've had shows where my mare consistently placed in the low ribbons or simply had 4 faults (and therefore didn't place) where I'm absolutely thrilled with her performance. There are other shows where we sweep the division, but it's against a much less difficult group of competitors and our performance certainly wouldn't win elsewhere. I guess as close you can get these days to figuring out which weeks are which is to look up the results on horseshowtime.com or find out if the show (or management group) has a personal website where results are posted. It's a little easier to figure out what was happening when you take a look at the competitors. A high number of DNPs in a class of 45 Jr/AO riders is less of a concern than DNPs in classes of 3 horses.
I guess the other way to go about it is to ask the seller for videos of the horse. I would imagine that would give you a good idea of why the horse wasn't placing (horse or rider-related) and whether the horse was the careful type or not so much.
But I will admit that I do wish there were "play-by-play" listings of horseshow results. I'm always curious to know how friends and acquaintances do and it would be fun to be able to follow them through the week! :) (without constantly calling or facebooking to ask how it went!). USEF certainly isn't the forum for that, though, since it takes so long for show results to get posted. So I suppose that's a topic for another day.
Sep. 17, 2009, 07:53 AM
Since the 2007 format changes (maybe earlier ) in the electronic results file USEF has asked for 1st, 2nd round time and faults and jump off time and faults.
In the 1st round only if the number of faults aren't available then a VW, E or R are to be used.
But many shows don't report the info unless it's a class with $$.
I've never seen USEF penalize omitting that info in low level jumper classes.
So the info the OP is asking for may be on file at USEF starting with the 2007 show year even if they don't display it on the horse results search.
Call them and ask.
Sep. 17, 2009, 08:16 AM
Then again, if the answer was 4 faults, 4 faults, 4 faults, that info would be useless if you didn't know it happened every time at the water.
Sing Mia Song
Sep. 17, 2009, 05:08 PM
DNP can mean a variety of things. I think you are asking WAY too much if you expect to never see a DNP. Even amazing horses occassionally have bad days. .
I think what the OP is looking for is more detail as to why the horse did not place--as in, did it play pick-up sticks with the jumps, or did stop out.
I can appreciate the desire for more information, but I think you're asking a lot of the show secretaries to track more than point-worthy finishes.
Sep. 17, 2009, 08:29 PM
I just looked up my DD jumpers record as he is going out to be sold. We did the CC Atlanta shows last year - if I remember correctly Spring and Summer. She and horse were ready to move up out of the Children's but not ready to be competitive in the Jrs against the company that was there, and add the Grand Prix field into the mix, so we had her ride in the Level 4s. These classes are Blue Ribbon classes and all that matters is you go clean. She had something like 14 out of 16 clear rounds but all that is reflected on the USEF record is 45 horses competed and DNP. So one has to realize what kind of classes these are at different horse shows.
Sep. 17, 2009, 09:49 PM
I've had a DNP for classes we scratched from. Never even got near the ring!
Sep. 17, 2009, 10:01 PM
DNP means that the horse did not get a ribbon in the class it was entered in. which may or may not mean the horse was eliminated. if you have 2 refusals youre obviously eliminated and out of the ribbons. if you get 4 faults you might still be in top 8 if everyone else is getting faults too. it's very dependent on the situation. sometimes it will still show up even if they scratched from the class.
Sep. 18, 2009, 12:54 PM
Thank you all for comments and suggestions. As a buyer the more information on a horse's history the better, and knowing if a horse was eliminated or had 25 faults consistently would be important - especially if references were vague. This you can't tell from a DNP notation. For others who want details, here's what I found out.
- USEF competition mgmt did not want to upgrade software yet but will start in 2010 for $25,000 and up jumper classes.
- If a horse competed in FEI classes, these details are on the FEI website.
- ryegate.com has archive details if horse competed in Grand Prixs that are/were part of computer ranking - records back to 1999.
Sep. 18, 2009, 01:14 PM
if you go to the individual show, you can at least see all the entries in the class. regular DNPs out of 50 vs 7 will tell you something about the horse (or the rider!)