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precious
Sep. 14, 2009, 01:21 PM
Someone, please tell me the difference between the new degree of difficulty points and bonus points. I thought bonus points were awarde because you rode the more difficult option. Now you get even more points for jumping the higher option? Bizare. Chanda please explain. :eek:

Tha Ridge
Sep. 14, 2009, 01:27 PM
Basically, the degree of difficulty points refer to the 4' options, of which there are typically four.

So, even if you bomb out and have a stop or a rail, but take all of the 4' options, you get four additional points regardless.

The "bonus" points are at the judge's discretion. If you don't take any of the 4', a judge may still like your horse enough to give you bonus points that even it all out anyway.

precious
Sep. 14, 2009, 01:40 PM
...what i thought, another crock! another way to slice the bologna a little thinner. :rolleyes:

Tha Ridge
Sep. 14, 2009, 07:39 PM
In the second round, you get a regular score based on your round and then bonus points for handiness (i.e. jumping the big options, taking the inside turns, etc.) but there is nothing like "for every big option you jump, you get a bonus point." I have seen a horse jump all the big options in the second round and get two and three bonus points.


Actually, you get bonus points for 4' options now - or that's how it was explained to me. I listened to the show manager talk, in detail, about the new system, but who knows.

precious
Sep. 14, 2009, 07:41 PM
canter on cutie. not how it works or reported how it works in the 9/11 COTH. Annoying how people who don't know, answer like they do and would swear they are right. :rolleyes::mad:

precious
Sep. 14, 2009, 07:43 PM
so, ok, what's the difference?:confused:

Tha Ridge
Sep. 14, 2009, 07:45 PM
Also, there are no 4'3" options in any of the Derbies. Doubt there ever will be, considering that the Regulars only jump 4'.

precious
Sep. 14, 2009, 08:22 PM
:sleepy: i am glad you can cut and paste. it proves you have half a brain. the thread is titled NEW Derby Scoring. It was used for the first time in Chicago. COTH reported on the system in the 9/11 edition. do your homework, oh and fix your lead, you're wrong!

PS.... don't bark at me about the 4'3" post. it wasn't mine. i know the rules! and jumping the bigger option came under the brilliance part of the old scoring (not rules) methodology.

so my question remains, put a different way, there are no longer bonus points for jumping the bigger option and the maximum differnce betweeen two equal rounds where one horse jumps the big one and one jumps the smaller one is 1x the number of bigger jumps (4 or 5) ? think about it!

Tha Ridge
Sep. 14, 2009, 08:40 PM
Your last question, Precious, admittedly confused me. Basically, there is a possibility of earning 14 additional points - 10 of those come from the judges and 4 of them from the bigger options. Does that clarify?

precious
Sep. 14, 2009, 08:48 PM
No, it does not. If there are 10 bonus points and 4 degree of difficulty points and two horses have flawless rounds one at the 3'6" options and one at the 4 ft options, and each earn all 10 bonus points, the only thing seperating the two horses are 4 points. one point for each of the four foot options.

I'm trying to understand are there still bonus points awarded for jumping the bigger options or just degree of difficulty points? They have made a distinction between these two types of points and i'm trying to understand that difference. Previously you got binus points for jumping the higher options as wellas the other stuff.

cantercutie
Sep. 14, 2009, 08:50 PM
My deepest apologies o wise one. I am sorry I was unawares. I have not received last Friday's issue in the mail yet and, therefore, have not read it. I wasn't barking at you, just making my case. Maybe if you had been a little more specific, I could have answered better, or not answered at all. You also didn't have to snap at me for being so out of the loop as not knowing they had changed the rules yet again, could have been pointed out and I would have quietly conceded, as I am now, now that I understand what you are talking about.

I was wrong, I didn't understand. Feel better now?

Tha Ridge
Sep. 14, 2009, 08:52 PM
No, it does not. If there are 10 bonus points and 4 degree of difficulty points and two horses have flawless rounds one at the 3'6" options and one at the 4 ft options, and each earn all 10 bonus points, the only thing seperating the two horses are 4 points. one point for each of the four foot options.

I'm trying to understand are there still bonus points awarded for jumping the bigger options or just degree of difficulty points? They have made a distinction between these two types of points and i'm trying to understand that difference. Previously you got binus points for jumping the higher options as wellas the other stuff.

Ah, got it. Sorry.

I think bonus points are now awarded solely for style and brilliance and no longer for the bigger options, since degree of difficulty points cover that. Not sure if there's an "official" mandate on that, however.

precious
Sep. 14, 2009, 09:08 PM
thanks, me thinkith it's a crock as stated before. why should a horse that is a career 4 footer week after week get bonus points for jumping 4 foot in a derby? oh that's right. it's the way to be ure the professionals don't get beaten or at least have an edge on their junior and amateur competitors. what a way to highlight the hunters! how about highlighting the politics and whether or not you sit on a committee that makes the rules! Now throw in 4/ 4'6" options and make the regulars jump them and they shoould get bounus points. level the playing field high performance committee. you can fool all of the people sometimes and some of the people all of the time, but.....

we're not all ignaramouses:no::no::no:

precious
Sep. 14, 2009, 09:12 PM
feel fabulous canter! again, read the topic title before you respond or respond as the ridge did.

Perhaps, oh there are new rules, last i knew......... alot of the Problem on here, a bunch of authority's on stale news. if you're not informed you can't have an opinion. get informed and then formulate your opinion.

Tha Ridge
Sep. 14, 2009, 09:14 PM
True, I agree, but hopefully the savvy judges can use their bonus points to even that out a bit, not to mention that there are quite a few juniors and amateurs who are very capable of taking the 4' options as well.

precious
Sep. 14, 2009, 09:26 PM
sure they are capable, but why should the horses and the riders that compete at 4 foot week after wekk have an advantage over their students? I wouldn't compete or let my kids compete under this type of scoring, it's a waste of my money, they'll beat me every time even if we have the same round. And if my fellow competitors feel the same way, how is this benefiting the hunter industry and the traditional hunter if a group is cut out of competing because the cards are stacked? Answer....it won't. It'll pad certain peoples pockets, and in the end leave us where we started. These committee people need to get a clue. people are not as stupid as they think they are. It's just a matter of time!

Alterrain
Sep. 14, 2009, 10:37 PM
I wouldn't compete or let my kids compete under this type of scoring, it's a waste of my money, they'll beat me every time even if we have the same round.

precious, I don't understand your frustration over the new scoring system? If you and someone else have the EXACT same round, you will get the EXACT same scores. If your round is not as good because you jumped the smaller options, your score will reflect that. And if they jumped the bigger options, but your horse jumped better, the scores will reflect that also. It sounds like sour grapes to me. When was the last ribbon you got in a derby under the old scoring system?


And if my fellow competitors feel the same way, how is this benefiting the hunter industry and the traditional hunter if a group is cut out of competing because the cards are stacked?

How are the cards stacked? Any jr or ammy is welcome to show in the regulars, and they tend to be the owners anyway. Pros are usually on the greenies. Again, sounds like sour grapes.


Derbies are benefitting the hunter industry because riders, owners, and spectators LOVE them. And because BBs like this are full of threads about them. :)

precious
Sep. 15, 2009, 12:54 PM
Well lets all hold hands and sing kum bay yah! This is the response I would expect from the mutual adoration society. The playing field is uneven and the lobbyists are controling the rules. May I quote Mr. Teale from the COTH article " the degree of difficulty points worked just the way they were intended to". Judges and governing bodies are supposed to be neutral and not pre-determine the outcome specific competions. While the overall winners were not predetermined, it seems that outcome Mr. Teal refers to was that out of 35 horses competing all 12 finalists were professionals, not a junior or ammy in the pack. ALso read the last paragraph quote. ANd as for Ms. Serio's quote "for the first time there is a definitive answer" what's that answer, juniors and ammys can't win against professionals? Unfortunately they did beat the pros, buut that was until degree of difficulty points were instituted.

Back to my original thought: let's slice the bologna a little thinner and see if it's still bologna. Guess what, it is! :winkgrin:

precious
Sep. 15, 2009, 12:59 PM
oh and alterrain.......the only stirrups these feet have been in recently go along with the instruction, slide down, not sit up! :winkgrin:

RugBug
Sep. 15, 2009, 01:13 PM
oh and alterrain.......the only stirrups these feet have been in recently go along with the instruction, slide down, not sit up! :winkgrin:

That must by why you're acting so nasty. :rolleyes:

LetsChat
Sep. 15, 2009, 01:34 PM
oh and alterrain.......the only stirrups these feet have been in recently go along with the instruction, slide down, not sit up! :winkgrin:

TMI.... I can't get over people on this board. Why are you so angry about the points then, if you don't ride and don't have horses competing in the classes, what does it matter??? Oh and Angelo, you know who won a few of the bigger derbies recently is ridden by a junior and jumps the 4' options... Oh and it's ALOT different to say the option is 4' - 4'3" then to say they are ALL going to be 4'3".... I just don't get getting upset about something that has NOTHING, I said NOTHING, to do with your life or your existence.... NUTS

precious
Sep. 15, 2009, 01:40 PM
.......just because my feet have not been in the irons, does not mean that i don't have horses i own, or have children or grandchilderen that don't compete. I have been around longer than i'd care to admit. Keep your acusatory, judgemental and condesending manner to yourself. I asked a legitimate question and have yet to get an educated, reasonable, response. ;)

MHM
Sep. 15, 2009, 01:42 PM
Keep your acusatory, judgemental and condesending manner to yourself.

Excellent advice. :rolleyes:

LetsChat
Sep. 15, 2009, 01:43 PM
.......just because my feet have not been in the irons, does not mean that i don't have horses i own, or have children or grandchilderen that don't compete. I have been around longer than i'd care to admit. Keep your acusatory, judgemental and condesending manner to yourself. I asked a legitimate question and have yet to get an educated, reasonable, response. ;)

Well then you must be a regular on the AA circuit, you can just ask people or when your horse is competing, depending on how what options the horse takes or how much "brilliance" is in your horses round will determine score and you will have your answer. Seeing that you have so many relatives and horses competing in these classes, how did they pin in this year's derbies????

precious
Sep. 15, 2009, 02:31 PM
i cna ask and have asked and noone has an answer. my relatives do just fine in the derbies.:yes:

colbeyjack
Sep. 15, 2009, 04:23 PM
Well lets all hold hands and sing kum bay yah! This is the response I would expect from the mutual adoration society. The playing field is uneven and the lobbyists are controling the rules. May I quote Mr. Teale from the COTH article " the degree of difficulty points worked just the way they were intended to". Judges and governing bodies are supposed to be neutral and not pre-determine the outcome specific competions. While the overall winners were not predetermined, it seems that outcome Mr. Teal refers to was that out of 35 horses competing all 12 finalists were professionals, not a junior or ammy in the pack. ALso read the last paragraph quote. ANd as for Ms. Serio's quote "for the first time there is a definitive answer" what's that answer, juniors and ammys can't win against professionals? Unfortunately they did beat the pros, buut that was until degree of difficulty points were instituted.

Back to my original thought: let's slice the bologna a little thinner and see if it's still bologna. Guess what, it is! :winkgrin:

This is simply not true. The juniors held their own in the derbies this year, including the junior who was the 3rd place winner at the derby finals.

A good rider is a good rider is a good rider. Do we criticize the Grand Prix course designers for making "the jumps too high" and "not giving the amateurs a chance? No. The people winning the classes are winning because they are better riders, which is obviously the reason they are professionals.

The class was meant to be the "Grand Prix" of the hunters to draw some more attention to the hunters, and that is what the committee is doing. It's not a children's hunter classic. If your kids ride well, they will be rewarded accordingly.

Your anger and cricism utterly befuddles me.

precious
Sep. 15, 2009, 05:03 PM
[edit] read the topic.

NEW DERBY SCORING that references a COTH article and a new scoring system that has been used once since adoption at the CHicago Derby! There were no junior finalists. get a clue!

Serah
Sep. 15, 2009, 08:40 PM
Precious were you even at the Chicago Derby?? There were professionals in it with multiple rides that didn't get ribbons... is that a sham too? Plenty of people left without a ribbon that day... get over it. Maybe your eye just isn't as educated as you believe it is, and if you are constantly pinning different horses, you should pick up a book or check out a clinic. Its all a conspiracy against you, precious...

precious
Sep. 15, 2009, 09:03 PM
get a clue serah, [edit] and read the post. [edit]

JinxyFish313
Sep. 15, 2009, 10:45 PM
Wow. Special thread.


Since when is rewarding the more difficult ride a bad thing? Why should the rules cater to the lowest common denominator? If you've got a connection that shows in derbies and doesn't regularly show at 4' maybe they should start schooling and showing at 4' if they want to do well. You don't send a short stirrup kid into the small juniors and expect to win.

Madeline
Sep. 16, 2009, 12:57 AM
Wow. Special thread.


Since when is rewarding the more difficult ride a bad thing? Why should the rules cater to the lowest common denominator? If you've got a connection that shows in derbies and doesn't regularly show at 4' maybe they should start schooling and showing at 4' if they want to do well. You don't send a short stirrup kid into the small juniors and expect to win.

Jinxy makes the obvious point. Not rewarding those who do the more difficult options in hunter derbies in order to allow the less able a better chance to win is like telling the judges in international level figure skating that a double jump counts the same as a triple or a quad. If you do the harder tricks, you should score higher, even if you do not do them perfectly.

I liked the references to brilliance and pace as desireable attributes. I hope to see that aspect of hunter derby rounds being rewarded in the future.

(Ducking and running. I know that pace is considered taboo in hunters)

Moderator 1
Sep. 16, 2009, 07:39 AM
We removed/edited some comments from this thread. If everyone would like to continue discussing the topic, please do so with a civil tone and without the personal commentary.

Thanks,
Mod 1

Summit Springs Farm
Sep. 16, 2009, 08:52 AM
And I thought the sport horse breeding forum was tough!!

My thought is if you can do the 3'6" you can surely jump one 4 foot jump.:)