Mouthing and Bitting - Old Fashioned Equitation Advice [Archive]

Thomas_1

Sep. 13, 2009, 09:16 AM

Lots of postings on bits and mouths and bridles and hands have brought me to one of my favourite topics with regards to horses. (I know! I need to get out more!!!)

In my opinion this is a fundamental area of knowledge that is somewhat lacking nowadays. So many people who can afford to acquire horses can’t really be bothered with all the trouble of training them.

So many have important ommissions in their early training and groundwork and a lot stems from mouthing, bitting and use of hands.

As a multiples carriage driver as well as a classical horse trainer I well know how critical this subject matter is. When I drive 2, 3, 4 or even occassionally 6 horses, all I have to rely on is my hands and voice. Light harness horse instructors typically use reining machines to train drivers. In effect this is something whereby the pupil can see the effect their hand has on the horses mouth (because it uses pulleys and weights) and before they ever get near the horse. It’s critical for a driver because all you have is your hands and reins ….. and a lot of power in front of you and where it goes – if you’re lucky, you’re going too.

I was very fortunate in being mentored when I was a boy and through to adulthood by some great horsemen. In those days “mentoring” meant “Nothing worth doing is easy and you’ll work at it and boy, I’ll make you work!”

Over the decades I’ve come to appreciate that what I learnt was invaluable and somewhat difficult to pass on because it’s become instinctive to me. I often fall into the trap of thinking “duhhhhh don’t all riders/horse owners know that”.

Bitting is a difficult thing to write about because a bitting expert is somewhat an instinctive thing. It’s something that I’ve a reputation for and am often sought out for advice but I find it difficult to put into words.

But postings here have motivated me to give it a go.

First rule: It’s really really really rare to have a horse born with a spoilt mouth. Aside from those exceptionally rare horses with conformational mouth or dentition deformity, I’d contend that no horse is born with a bad mouth. I’d also assert that no horse is ever foaled that has a one sides mouth.

It’s my absolute conviction that “hard mouths”, “one-sided mouths” and the majority of horses that bolt, rear and nap are made by ham-fisted, heavy handed men and women and that these things originate from pain and fear of pain.

So a strong statement of opinion but one to make folks think that you make a good mouth on your young horse or else you remake a good mouth on an old horse that pulls and has a “hard mouth”

I can assure you that it can be done. I’ve done it not once or a couple of times but countless times.

Mentoring younger trainers myself has made me think about it and appreciate that there’s a lot to it though.

Hand position: (for riding) wrists rounded, elbows lightly touching your sides and thumbs across the body and on top. And light, light light contact. Take up washing lines means just that. It doesn’t mean pulling and picking up the weight.

Mouthing the horse: There was short commentary on this on the contentious “Tongue over the bit” thread. Several of us there explained how we initially accustom a horse to something in it’s mouth. It seems it’s become an “old fashioned way” to mouth a horse by getting it so it’s totally comfortable about having something in it’s mouth. AND ensuring that it’s got no chance of hurting him. I either bridle a horse and put a straight bit in or else – really old fashioned! I use curb chains for mouthing and particularly for re-mouthing. On older “heavy or dry mouthed” horses I sometimes use 2 or 3 curb chains that they can chomp and play with. I either attach them to the bridle or to a head collar.

I start youngsters by letting them have 20 minutes when they’re alone and loose in their box and increase it slowly and gradulally and so it’s up to 3 hours morning and afternoon. I’m looking for the horse to be working – playing and chomping on – the bit. I need them to be doing that and IMO when they’re not doing anything then it’s doing them no good. That’s why I don’t leave it on too long at first. I don’t want their jaws to get tired and for them to stop mouthing and therefore get into the habit of never mouthing.

That’s also the reason why I vary the height and sometimes what is actually in the youngsters mouth. I don’t want him to get used to them and not play with them.

Remaking a mouth is just the same only I often then use say 2 or 3 curb chains. So those ones never stand in a stable doing nothing. They’re often standing mouthing chains. I sometimes drop them quite low too and to down within an inch of the horse’s front teeth. Again I vary with an older hard mouthed horse say with the nose band loose or the chain low or higher.

I’m a huge advocate for free mouthing in this way but I’m also a great believer in pillar reins. I actually just attach a couple of pieces of light cord to the posts in the door of the stable and then attach to each side of the head collar or bridle, tight enough for the horse not to be able to get them in his mouth and chew them. And just let them stand there and mouth.

Bitting: A lot of folks concentrate on bits. So much so that I think some people think you can make a horse do anything with the right bit. For me the single word to be used when thinking of bits is…… COMFORT.

You have to understand the action of the bit you select and have to appreciate it’s effect in combination with the hands of the rider. So a nice plain jointed snaffle is often considered the best. NOT ALWAYS. If you happen to have it in the middle of the mouth and you’re active rising and lowering your hands then it is a pinching action on the bars or lower jaw caused by the joint in the bit. It it’s not in the middle ther’s pressure of the ring against one side and a pinching of the ring against the other side and from which it’s difficult for the horse to escape.

Straight bar – if it’s in the middle it’s a level pressure. If not in the middle then just like the jointed snaffle it’s a pressure of the ring against the outside on the ne side. But a level pressure on the other and the difference is that the moment the horse drops his head the straight barried snaffle falls into place in his mouth. That makes it quite good for say leading and why so many stud farms use it when leading stallions.

In my opinion though a lot of folks think that a snaffle is the “mildest” that’s not the case at all. Truth be told a lot of folks don’t ride a horse with hands so light that a snaffle is the most comfortable.

Gob-straps: Is the coloquial name that English Horsemen give anything that is designed to hold the horse’s mouth shut. They’re very much the vogue nowadays and I HATE them. If a horse is opening it’s mouth, then it’s not comfortable and a gob-strap is just stopping it from opening it’s mouth. It’s not going to make it more comfortable.

When you have a difficulty it’s best to try to trace it’s origin. So go back to use of hands, bridle fit, bitting and bit position. I know gob-straps keep the mouth shut but it’s prevention not cure. The cure must come from the bit and he’s holding his mouth open to avoid pain. DON’T JUST STRAP IT’S MOUTH SHUT!!

Horse Leaning, One Sided or Heavy: A lot of horses are described as “one-sided” or heavy or leaning on one side. I put all my pupils in front of a reining machine and ask them to close their eyes and feel the reins and pick up contact. It’s a rare treat to find someone that isn’t left or right hand orientated. Generally it’s left rein here and I’m convinced that’s also due to the English rule of the road. Most riders here ride on roads and I’m convinced get comfort from hanging on to the left rein. When doing arena work a heck of a lot try to main the horse on the circle by hanging on to the outside rein – away from where they think their instructor might see!

Tongue over bit: Always bad breaking is responsible for this. If a horse has got into the habit of putting his tongue over the bit or else has rolled his tongue back to try to alleviate the pain the bit is causing him then that’s down to bad mouthing and bad bitting and breaking. If it’s established as a habit over a long period of time it can be tricky to stop. But it’s back to basics and starting all over again thinking: COMFORT, HANDS, COMFORT, MOUTHING, COMFORT, BITTING, COMFORT. When all that’s sorted and it’s just become habitual then when all else has failed, using a tongue tape high can stop the habit. Then the bit needs to be a little higher than the norm when the tape is first taken off.

Before leaving bitting, another old fashioned and extremely effective thing I was taught and still often do is I always take a bit of baler twine or spare curb chain in my pocket. (I’ve had a few photos of me eventing and hunting with baler twine flapping and been asked why on forums.) If a horse isn’t going comfortably in his bridle I put the spare curb in his mouth and make him mouth and play with the bit and chain.

CatOnLap

Sep. 13, 2009, 11:04 AM

Thomas, as your post is swiftly dropping to the bottom of the page I will bump it because it is some of the best advice I've read recently on this forum. Well, perhaps its because I learned from similar old mentors on this side of the pond.

I too hate flash nosebands and cranks done tight and other noseband that tie a horse's mouth shut. And even though I ridden many horses with supposedly hard mouths, I never found the horse's mouth to be the problem, but as you say the rider's poor seat leading to heavy and erratic contact from their hands.

Thanks for the tip on using curb chains to mouth up a horse. I always used a plain french link, but a curb chain is even more forgiving. I learned originally from western trainers and they had what they called a "grazing bit" -it was a mildly ported curb with short, curved, swept back shanks, so that when the horse put his head down to graze, the shanks would sweep back out of the way without activitating the curb strap. I never saw a snaffle bit in those days and they started their youngsters in such a bit with no curb strap and left it in all day to get them used to it.

vineyridge

Sep. 13, 2009, 11:12 AM

MidlifeCrisis

Sep. 13, 2009, 11:23 AM

Thank you, Thomas.

Couture TB

Sep. 13, 2009, 11:30 AM

ReSomething

Sep. 13, 2009, 11:52 AM

Thanks for the post, Thomas.

Back in the old days, it was very common to use a special starting bit with keys that lay on the tongue. Now those are extremely hard to find. I've been searching for one for a while, and the only one that I've been able to find is in New Zealand.

If anyone has a source for those bits, would you mind posting?

In the absence of that bit, I'm perfectly willing to try a curb chain as a substitute.

As to gobstraps, as you call them, I've never used one and never will. In fact, my regular cavasson is always loose. That's what I was taught as a sprout.

My DH got Storey's Guide to Training Horses out of the library recently, for me, though I have never thought of training a horse - the dog is enough trouble for me! In this book is a drawing of the bitting snaffle or mouthing bit with the keys as you describe, with a source list in the back of the book, but whether the bit is sold by any of the vendors I don't know, as some of the companies are long gone or sold off.

Thank you Thomas, for sharing your expertise.

Ghazzu

Sep. 13, 2009, 12:19 PM

If anyone has a source for those bits, would you mind posting?

How's this (http://www.bigdweb.com/detail.aspx?id=12643)?

Thomas_1

Sep. 13, 2009, 12:23 PM

I've quite a lot of old key mouthing bits. Inherited them over the decades.

I actually don't use them though and I wouldn't recommend them because they tend to be quite heavy and even when they are light weight I've never personally found them any advantage over a curb chain or normal bit in terms of making a mouth.

I also know folks who have used them and taken them off after a while to discover that some of the keys are missing and heading south!

Finally at some point you have to change the keying bit to a normal bit and my experience is that the horse misses all the extra stuff and just stops looking for the contact.

kookicat

Sep. 13, 2009, 12:37 PM

Thanks for the post, Thomas.

Back in the old days, it was very common to use a special starting bit with keys that lay on the tongue. Now those are extremely hard to find. I've been searching for one for a while, and the only one that I've been able to find is in New Zealand.

If anyone has a source for those bits, would you mind posting?

In the absence of that bit, I'm perfectly willing to try a curb chain as a substitute.

As to gobstraps, as you call them, I've never used one and never will. In fact, my regular cavasson is always loose. That's what I was taught as a sprout.

https://www.saddler.co.uk/shop.html?cr=2375&pr=2110&pdesc=breaking_bit_with_players_bi559

http://www.rideaway.co.uk/index2.php3?sessionid=091b4a2f76ef6140473c4175c8e2 eda0&page=showprod&uact=shop&catcode1=B&catcode2=564

http://www.rideaway.co.uk/index2.php3?sessionid=091b4a2f76ef6140473c4175c8e2 eda0&page=showprod&uact=shop&catcode1=B&catcode2=565

www.robinsons-uk.com also carry them.

Fantastic advice Thomas. Wonder if we could have this placed in the reference forum?

JenEM

Sep. 13, 2009, 02:01 PM

I'm not that old, and I remember those key bits. One of the horses at the barn I grew up went in one of them--he had a very active mouth, and loved it. As a kid, all I remember is what a pain in the behind cleaning it was :lol:

Very thoughtful and interesting read, as usual, Thomas. I would add only that the other part of comfort to pair with the action of the bit is the shape of the bit relative to that of the horse's mouth. My horse, for instance, is quite happy in a French link, so long as the link is flat; any of those big bean things are too big for her big-tongued mouth, make her quite unhappy, yet those are so in vogue now.

jrchloe

Sep. 13, 2009, 02:42 PM

Could you attach the curb chain/bit to a halter instead of using a bridle? Do you have to worry about the chains especially when there is more than 1 pinching the tongue or mouth corners?

Renn/aissance

Sep. 13, 2009, 02:49 PM

Thomas, or anyone else for that matter, can you go a little more in depth about using the curb chains for a horse to mouth? How do you attach them to the halter or bridle? You mentioned that you often set them in lower in the mouth than you would attach a bit while working; what is your aim with that? When working a horse, do you vary the height of the bit in the mouth as well? Can you also elaborate on the effect of the hands on different bits--double-jointed bits, those with leverage?

This is all very educational for me; I have been fortunate to have some good teachers but some of what you're saying is new to me and I would like to learn more. :)

War Admiral

Sep. 13, 2009, 04:06 PM

Could you please go make this a sticky in the Dressage forum? :D:yes:

goeslikestink

Sep. 13, 2009, 05:14 PM

thomas i understand where your comming from as i do the same when breaking a horse in
ie leave him in the stable with a bridle on but not unattended as ythe same as you i am about
the only thing i do different - is i also have key bits but dont use them prefer a snaffle
then i get a slice of yesterdays bread slap some honey, treacle or goldden syrup on it and then mold that to the bit - nice and tight - then put that in the horse mouth

thus the horse learns to open his mouth to accept the bit-- and also has a reward for his effects of a chomping licking and chewing so the mouth becomes soft
i do this every day before any gettting on and actual breaking them in for at least 2 weeks
and it takes them roughly about 20mins to eat whats on the bit
it also teaches the horse when untacking of the bridle to open his mouth -- to drop the bit
so you can command them to open and the mouth to accept the bit and also to give the bit back

i have been doing it this way since i can remember in all my years of breaking and schooling re trianing the harsh mouth as i to have had a number of those

and i totally agree with everything you said about the horse isnt bron with a bad mouth unless it has a deformty or dentistry problem

also as my other post on another thread got poofed

the conseqences of riding with bad hands as you know in truth - that bits are only servere
as the hands that use them

but like i said and you know yourself as you have mentioned it
it doesnt stop just there

bad hand can effect the way the horse goes if its continueing in a force frame then more likely the horse will be stiff or one sided not only is the mouth hurting but also his back regions head and neck as he cant flexed the poll and more often than not the rider isnt central to the horse so therfore is unbalanced which in turn makes the horse crooked plus the saddle

people do say on here but i ride the horse with light hands --

to me hands mean to follow the movement of the horse- i have a saying where you look your hands will follow where your hands go the so does the horse

the hands follow the movement of the horse head and mouth which ties in with
the position when you doing flat work a straight line from elbow through the hands to the horses mouth as you know postition is important as its relevant to the hands of the rider

Thomas_1

Sep. 13, 2009, 06:03 PM

It's quite simple to do but very important to do it properly.

In the case of a single chain, attach a string to each end, and bring them up under the head collar, inside the nose band and tie them inside the loop of the brow band,or if you have a head collar with a ring where the head piece joins the cheek piece, attach them to it.

Don't attach it to the nose band. Because if you are leading the horse you will interfere with his mouth and if he's on pillar reins for the same reason. You need to ensure he can't interfere with it by rubbing or getting caught up on the door or anything.

For the same reason, you put your string inside the nose-band and up inside the head collar, then you get a straight fall and no chance of pressure on the mouth.

To attach 2 or more chains, tie them one below the other about half an inch apart on the string, dropping as many links as you require to get them to hang evenly in the mouth one below the other.

cocopuff

Sep. 13, 2009, 06:12 PM

Thank you for posting this. I found it informative and think it should be made into a sticky. I'm totally with you on the gob-straps. After discovering the bridle I bought for my horse (that came with a flash...I took it off) was too big I went looking for one that met my design desires and repeatedly came up short. Flash or crank on nearly everything that came in black! Finally found a retailer near your neck of the woods that can make exactly what I want.

Thomas_1

Sep. 13, 2009, 06:19 PM

You might want to PM Mod1 to get this made into a sticky or put in the appropriate reference threads. Wherever they are??

kookicat

Sep. 13, 2009, 06:19 PM

kookicat

Sep. 13, 2009, 06:20 PM

You might want to PM Mod1 to get this made into a sticky or put in the appropriate reference threads. Wherever they are??

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/forumdisplay.php?f=78 :)

Thomas_1

Sep. 13, 2009, 06:25 PM

Interesting- I've never heard of this. Do you have a picture? If you use two curb chains, does the tongue ever get pinched? What is the most chains you would use? (I'm guessing that three or four would be the max for most horses)

Thanks :) I'm not sure if I've got a picture but I'll have a look and if not, I'll try to remember to take one.

The tongue never gets pinched because the curbs are properly turned so they lay flat and they're loose.

3 is the most I've used. But I've seen 4 and even 5 used on older horses that have been totally spoilt with over bitting, heavy hands, fixed to side reins and with a mouth clamped with a gob strap.

kookicat

Sep. 13, 2009, 06:45 PM

Thanks!

That makes sense. I was thinking of the horse moving them about and the tongue getting between the edges of two.

I hate flash nosebands! It's so hard to find a nice bridle without a flash stuck on it now.

Thomas_1

Sep. 13, 2009, 06:55 PM

I've never had any problems. And when they do come with them, they just detach by pulling the flash or drop noseband out of the loop.

Full range from cheap to expensive. All leather too.

http://www.rideaway.co.uk/index2.php3?sessionid=43e74b1de32091479c63b20359f0 a29d&page=showprod&uact=shop&catcode1=SBR&catcode2=HCV

http://www.rideaway.co.uk/index2.php3?sessionid=43e74b1de32091479c63b20359f0 a29d&page=showprod&uact=shop&catcode1=SBR&catcode2=CRC

http://www.rideaway.co.uk/index2.php3?sessionid=43e74b1de32091479c63b20359f0 a29d&page=showprod&uact=shop&catcode1=SBR&catcode2=CAV3

http://www.rideaway.co.uk/index2.php3?sessionid=43e74b1de32091479c63b20359f0 a29d&page=showprod&uact=shop&catcode1=SBR&catcode2=CARA

kookicat

Sep. 13, 2009, 06:58 PM

sublimequine

Sep. 13, 2009, 07:13 PM

This is why I am partly glad my mare prefers bitless setups, I don't have to worry about a lot of this stuff. :lol:

I do wish they had more options in the bitless world, though. :yes:

goeslikestink

Sep. 13, 2009, 07:34 PM

thomas add it to here

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=196529

goeslikestink

Sep. 13, 2009, 07:36 PM

these are links from helpful links pages which is relevent to the topic

http://www.sustainabledressage.com/tack/bridle.php#kineton

here you will see working diagrams of how how each birdle and bit effects the horses mouth
when in use it has clear working diagrams
of the action of the bit

http://www.meredithmanor.com/features/articles/faith/fixing_bit_evasions.asp

and this gives clear explinations of advasions from the horse via the usage of heavy hands or hand set

goeslikestink

Sep. 13, 2009, 08:43 PM

This is why I am partly glad my mare prefers bitless setups, I don't have to worry about a lot of this stuff. :lol:

I do wish they had more options in the bitless world, though. :yes:

interesting -
this thread by you
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=223275

sublimequine

Sep. 14, 2009, 12:46 AM

interesting -
this thread by you
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=223275

Last time I checked my mare's neck is not a part of her mouth. Nice try GLS. I need to just put you back on ignore, ya ogre. :lol:

Thomas_1

Sep. 14, 2009, 03:38 AM

Last time I checked my mare's neck is not a part of her mouth. Nice try GLS. I need to just put you back on ignore, ya ogre. :lol:

I let your first your first comment go by without responding and mainly because I couldn't find what I was looking for
This is why I am partly glad my mare prefers bitless setups, I don't have to worry about a lot of this stuff.

I do wish they had more options in the bitless world, though. Found it now though: :rolleyes: (why is the rollyeyes smiley not immediately visible!?). I also wanted to just do a quick "YEAH, RIGHT!" and because I know you're totally kidding yourself if you think that a bitless set up is going to give you less to worry about when it comes to what is happening with the front end and particularly the jaw and neck. At the time though I thought your posting was just some silly pointy comment which might have been an attempt to make a point had it not been pointless in that it merely displayed ignorance that really just required :rolleyeyes:

Now until GLS linked to your other thread I'd not a clue that you were actually already having difficulty or that there were gaps in your horse's training but I must now say that you're truly kidding yourself if you think that going bitless means you have less to worry about. Indeed you've got the evidence of that fact right beneath you when you ask for canter.

Furthermore if you think that what happens with a bridle, bit and the mouth has no correlation to what she's able and not able to do with her jaw and neck, then you're just wrong and you might want to go get a clue.

Indeed having now read about the problem you're having I'll give you a clue. Read post 39 on there.

Not a lot of point adding to that one as that poster pretty much has it all covered. From root cause to solution, it's an excellent posting.

You just need to "go figure".

Now where were we? Ah I know: lets get back to mouthing and bitting :winkgrin:

goeslikestink

Sep. 14, 2009, 03:49 AM

Last time I checked my mare's neck is not a part of her mouth. Nice try GLS. I need to just put you back on ignore, ya ogre. :lol:

i take that as you think i was being sarcastic - which i wasnt your asking for help as your horse braces against you ie tanks off or pulls

no words on bits and bitting would be complete if they didnt include the bitless bridle which also concerns the mouth

its a misconception that hackamores are gentle bridles far from it

a hackamore exerts great leaverage with long cheek pieces which are connected to the noseband the effect of that is the horse is ridden virtually on the front of his nose and not on the bars of his mouth

it will give you much control in a horse that pulls the disadvantage is that it not easy to control the horses direction a hackamore in the hands of an expreinced rider can be a a useful tool, but in the hands of a novice can be damaging one to the horse

people often fit them to low out of ignorance the dangerous being of this is that the horse nose blocked and he cannot get air through to his lungs - pulling against the hackamore then causes him to gasp for air

and a harsh rider with harsh hands can with very little effort break a horses nose
as not only does the hackamore act on the nose areas but also the chin and poll

even if fitted correctly hackamore can cuase a lump on the horses nose through the great leverage exerted by the bridle they are not only to be used with the uttermost respect but the novice intermediate riders should leave them for the experts

your hands control the reins which control the head area -- in both bitted and bitless bridles

sublimequine

Sep. 14, 2009, 09:30 AM

Thomas and GLS both, you've totally misunderstood my post.

In the MOUTH ITSELF, I have less to worry about when going bitless. Fitting the bit, finding a bit the horse likes, tongue sticking out, tongue over the bit, etc, etc, I don't have to worry about.

Training in general? It's no different, I've got just as many issues as anyone else. Bitless doesn't mean I have less on my plate to work on. It just means I have less "mouth stuff" to worry about, like the stuff I mentioned above.

GLS, I know how a hackamore works and how it is fitted, thanks. I wouldn't use it if I didn't know how it works.

Thomas_1

Sep. 14, 2009, 10:30 AM

Thomas and GLS both, you've totally misunderstood my post.

Ah well no doubt yours is one of those posts that just disproves the theory that "everyone else can't be wrong" ;)

Training in general? It's no different, I've got just as many issues as anyone else. Bitless doesn't mean I have less on my plate to work on. I'd personally say that you've probably got more to worry about and less opportunity to do advanced schooling work but hey ho, what would I know ;)

GLS, I know how a hackamore works and how it is fitted, thanks. I wouldn't use it if I didn't know how it works. So how comes you rebuffed GLS and retored that the neck was nothing to do with the mouth.

Last I knew, the mouth was part of the jaw and the mouth and jaw play a fundamental part in what goes right or wrong with the neck.

ddashaq

Sep. 14, 2009, 10:55 AM

Excellent OP, Thomas! Thank you!:)

I have always spent a lot of time letting the horse get used to having the bit in its mouth before I actually start using it. I have found it results in quieter and softer mouths. A lot of the rest of your post, like the curb chains and pillar reins are things that I had never heard of before. Can you explain the pillar reins a bit more? Not really sure what they are and what they are used for.

sublimequine

Sep. 14, 2009, 10:59 AM

Ah well no doubt yours is one of those posts that just disproves the theory that "everyone else can't be wrong" ;)

I'd personally say that you've probably got more to worry about and less opportunity to do advanced schooling work but hey ho, what would I know ;)

So how comes you rebuffed GLS and retored that the neck was nothing to do with the mouth.

Last I knew, the mouth was part of the jaw and the mouth and jaw play a fundamental part in what goes right or wrong with the neck.

You still misunderstand me. I give up. :lol:

goeslikestink

Sep. 14, 2009, 11:43 AM

You still misunderstand me. I give up. :lol:

urm no i havent - you have a horse that you dont do dressage which is schooling
so therefore what you have a horse that does as it likes as in horse is the boss of you rather than you being the boss of the horse
the horse takes you for a ride -

if you want to make things better then you need to address how your triaining your horse and have an understanding as to the tack your using and what that tack does in comparison to how you ride

change your trianing methods - and work the horse from butt to poll to a relaxed yaw
you cant win with a horse thats working front end to the butt end that working backwards

i have had horses that have been bitless and strong - so i placed a volcanite kimblewick on the bridle
as thats a bit more stronger than a snaffle but not as strong as a pelham when ridden

and if you dont know what a volcanite kimblewick is- its the same as a metal one with rubber around the bit section that goes into the mouth so its softer for him

a couple of exsample of what i would do this only one way to achieve a result but i have others
ground work was to long line the horse so it understood basic commands learn to go straight and forwards also give the horse a nice rounded outline

then when ridden work i would work the horse horse from butt to poll, if however the horse wanted to tank ------ then i would gallop it down one side then the other side of the areana using an indepedant seat secure leg and light hands i would use the kick and click method
so the horse learn to go of tweak of my heals and prase the horse a lot once he completed the exercise by big pats and loads of scratches to instill in his mind this good very good idea to him as the horse was sharper

with horses that are sharper or lazy you have to get after them
your aids have to be a quicker and sharper

once the horse realised what i wanted then i would come back to working in trot - by lenghtening and shortening using the half halt stride in every transition then mixed the two paces that all walk and all trot once learnt added the canter paces and then the counter canter

but if you dont do dressage which is schooling a horse then it becomes difficult to the horse as to what your asking -- as its a confused signal

as an exsample you might perhaps be asking with your legs and pulling with your hands ----
thats giving the horse a confused signal

confusing in a horses mind is a fear factor -- which turns into a doubt in a horses mind
and doubts are fear factors -- the fear factors of a horse is 1st to fllee the 2nd ro advade you

and thus is what happening to your horse as she tanks and pulls --- as no clear signal of direction comming from you

the point is in above samples of me with a horse that pulls is there is no pulling - i have go the same way the horse is going but i am in control

as thomas 1 so rightly saaid in another post-- dont yank and it wont pull
the horse cant pull you if you working in the same direction

and no human is as strong as horse so you wont win anyways not even with a shetland

So with the weather cooling down my little mare is feeling good. TOO good.

horses do feel good so not alone

just quoting you and lets see it broken down a bit

Whenever we pick up the canter now, she will often just brace her neck like a bratty little pony, and just plow ahead like a freight train. The strange thing is she does NOT pull, my reins are NEVER taut. She just kind of turns her neck into stone, and trucks right on along.

here-- exsample sounds like mussles built up under the neck so the horse in fixed head position
bracing it self against you on the reins-- as your hand set and heavy handed

I know the issue is she just wants me to get up into a two point,

since when does a horse tell you to trot --- only when the horse is boss and therefore horse is deciding as what it should do

another exsample - for you

Whenever we pick up the canter now, she will often just brace her neck like a bratty little pony,

shes deciding-------

excuse me but i want a canter or gallop or what ever from a horse it does it when i want not the other way round

The strange thing is she does NOT pull, my reins are NEVER taut. Unfortunately for her I don't want to do that every single time we canter.

but she expecting that as that what she does as you have let her

Any advice? Please be gentle, I'm a trail rider with a heavily halter-bred QH. I do not ride Dressage. We're not from your world, but it's a subject you folks might be able to help with.

and---- theres you an theres the horse both have personalites dont matter if you come from kingbucktoo

(If equipment has anything to do with anything, she goes in an english mechanical hackamore. Bitless is preferred for her, much happier trail horse with no bit. But I would consider any other bitless options, or even a few bitted options if I think it'd help. )

the horse is very opionunated and has your no----- so your either going to change and do a bit of work with the horse and advance or you not going to and just going to amble along as you have been

too many people blame horse blame the tack when its themselves thats causing the problem
after all they only learn from the human hands

Barnfairy

Sep. 14, 2009, 05:11 PM

Back in the old days, it was very common to use a special starting bit with keys that lay on the tongue. Now those are extremely hard to find. I've been searching for one for a while, and the only one that I've been able to find is in New Zealand.

If anyone has a source for those bits, would you mind posting?
Quillin Leather & Tack in Kentucky has a breaking bit with keys (http://quillin.com/jshop/product.php?xProd=801&xSec=32).

It is meant to be attached to a halter, and you can attach a lead shank to (or loop a strap of leather through) the chin strap.

Alexie

Sep. 14, 2009, 08:33 PM

There was short commentary on this on the contentious “Tongue over the bit” thread. Several of us there explained how we initially accustom a horse to something in it’s mouth. It seems it’s become an “old fashioned way” to mouth a horse by getting it so it’s totally comfortable about having something in it’s mouth. AND ensuring that it’s got no chance of hurting him. I either bridle a horse and put a straight bit in or else – really old fashioned! I use curb chains for mouthing and particularly for re-mouthing. On older “heavy or dry mouthed” horses I sometimes use 2 or 3 curb chains that they can chomp and play with. I either attach them to the bridle or to a head collar.

I start youngsters by letting them have 20 minutes when they’re alone and loose in their box and increase it slowly and gradulally and so it’s up to 3 hours morning and afternoon. I’m looking for the horse to be working – playing and chomping on – the bit. I need them to be doing that and IMO when they’re not doing anything then it’s doing them no good. That’s why I don’t leave it on too long at first. I don’t want their jaws to get tired and for them to stop mouthing and therefore get into the habit of never mouthing.

I've read this about curb chains in one of my old books-and I can't remember which one!

What is your opinion of starting them off with the bit low enough in their mouths so that they can get their tongue over the bit?

I remember having braces on my teeth as a child and how large they felt and how I needed to keep playing with them constantly with my tongue.

I always think that the horse must feel the same way when first introduced to a bit, so I put it in low so they can feel it every way they want to, and do exactly as you say regarding letting them get accustomed.

I've never met anyone who thought that putting the bit low was a good idea, and that it would result in a horse who constantly got his tongue over the bit.

This has never happened, and I've broken about 50 horses in this was-small beer I know, but enough times to give me the confidence to post about this method and know that there is method behind my madness.

I know you're not one to mince your words, so I'm half regretting asking already :o

But I would appreciate your opinion!

BTW it's never ever low enough to clang teeth.

sdlbredfan

Sep. 14, 2009, 08:36 PM

Thomas1, I've just joined your fan club! This topic, and your contributions to it, should be required reading for everyone who rides, drives or wants to do so.

partlycloudy

Sep. 14, 2009, 08:51 PM

Such a timely thread, since I am now starting 2 youngsters. thanks thomas for the reminder about curb-chains. At one time I knew this!
Youngster# 1 spent 10 min or so softley mouthing his curb-chain; # 2 will start tomorrow.
I am amazed and appalled at the No. of people who ignore the advice freely and clearly given by such experts as thomas 1 and GLS and variuos others on this board (forgive me if I can't remember you all)
When I was starting I had to pour over old issues of 'Western Horseman' and any other publication I could get my hands on for training advice. Now-a-days you can get expert advice at your fingertips 24/7.

sublimequine

Sep. 14, 2009, 09:39 PM

urm no i havent - you have a horse that you dont do dressage which is schooling
so therefore what you have a horse that does as it likes as in horse is the boss of you rather than you being the boss of the horse
the horse takes you for a ride -

(Edited to remove excessively long post that's nearly impossible to comprehend)

too many people blame horse blame the tack when its themselves thats causing the problem
after all they only learn from the human hands

Yeah I'm not going to bother reading all that. :lol:

But I did laugh at the bolded part.. so everyone who doesn't ride Dressage lets their horse do whatever it wants and isn't the boss? Wow, that's news to me! :eek:

I don't blame my mare, either. She's feeling good with the cooler weather, and wants to just GO! That's not surprising, I feel good with the cooler weather too! I also didn't blame the tack, but was open to suggestions if anyone ELSE thought change of tack might make a difference.

I don't want to get off topic here on the OP's thread, so I'll just leave it at that. I'm sure you'll just try and continue to badger me anyways as you always do, oh well. I tried! :lol:

goeslikestink

Sep. 15, 2009, 01:48 AM

I don't want to get off topic here on the OP's thread, so I'll just leave it at that. I'm sure you'll just try and continue to badger me anyways as you always do, oh well. I tried! :lol:[/QUOTE]

in answer no i dont ...

anyways getting back to the topic of mouthing and bitting

i prefer to use a bit off bread on the bit when mouthing bread with a sugary substance moulded on to the bit nice and tight so it encourages the saliva glands to work so the horse doesnt start of with a dry mouth

its the same reason for thomas 1 curb chain and why bits were made with keys as mouthing bits

and like thomas 1 i have them that is key bits but dont use them for the same reasons he said

the reason i use bread is one-- it helps the horse to chew and chom and salvia
and two its rewarding to the horse for his efforts
3- it also encourages the horse to open and close his mouth ready to accept and take off the bridle
and you can actullay teach them to open there mouth with the word open and the word drop to remove the bit- i always say drop nicely which they do
so none of this headshyness around the head areas so its not just the mouthing but the whole thing -
its also important part of the mouthing that the bridle fits the horse
especaily round the ears ---- as some will have trouble putting the bridle on around the ears this can be cuase thebridle is to short or it can be becuase the horse has wider forehead than his length of head often fitting a bigger brow band will cure the problem

a horse with a dry mouth cant be relaxed as much as one that isnt and would find the bit an irritant against his skin - inside the mouth so anything to help the horse salvia glands to kick to lubricate the bit helps the horse if however the horse has a dry mouth and already in work etc in this case giving the horse a polo , sugar lump or bit of grass before you ride him or work him
would encourage the salva glands to relaxed the horse in mouth and yaw and then horse would be more flexed at the poll

the achivement and goal is no matter what you do comfort is the main thing if the horse is comfortable then he will work well and accept new things

Thomas_1

Sep. 15, 2009, 02:12 PM

I've read this about curb chains in one of my old books-and I can't remember which one!

What is your opinion of starting them off with the bit low enough in their mouths so that they can get their tongue over the bit?

I remember having braces on my teeth as a child and how large they felt and how I needed to keep playing with them constantly with my tongue.

I always think that the horse must feel the same way when first introduced to a bit, so I put it in low so they can feel it every way they want to, and do exactly as you say regarding letting them get accustomed.

I've never met anyone who thought that putting the bit low was a good idea, and that it would result in a horse who constantly got his tongue over the bit.

This has never happened, and I've broken about 50 horses in this was-small beer I know, but enough times to give me the confidence to post about this method and know that there is method behind my madness.

I know you're not one to mince your words, so I'm half regretting asking already :o

But I would appreciate your opinion!

BTW it's never ever low enough to clang teeth.

Funny you should mention this. I was talking about this to a young lady I'm mentoring who has a couple of fantastic young Cleveland Bay Mares that I'm helping her with.

I told her to get them bridled and with the bits very low in their mouths and for exactly the same reasons you mentioned. (She didn't have any curb chains).

So that is something I also do.

kookicat

Sep. 15, 2009, 03:18 PM

What are your thoughts on bits for a double bridle, Thomas? :)

Thomas_1

Sep. 15, 2009, 04:43 PM

What do you mean? Thoughts in relation to what? For what?

kookicat

Sep. 15, 2009, 05:15 PM

What do you mean? Thoughts in relation to what? For what?

Just in general- what you like to use, what you don't like. :)

willowoodstables

Sep. 15, 2009, 11:38 PM

Thomas...excellent post! Someone should sticky this and all should read it. I am a driver, and am now in the process of re-educating a poor pony who doesn't even know what freaking shafts are when turned in a small circle (as in what the hell is that touching my sides)..and this pony has shown!! Honestly I wonder who in the heck would even get in the cart with this 7 year old. He came with a bridle..twisted snaffle and nose band with beads on the underside!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Geesh....read Thomas' post, start right like he is a new colt in off grass, do you put a halter on and just lead, or do we educate him on how a halter is even put on?? off my soap box as I tried again to hook this poor soul and the panic/worry that I will reef his lips off, or what the heck is that behind me drives me nuts..he wants to be a nice pony, not a freak show!

goeslikestink

Sep. 16, 2009, 02:52 AM

i have took the liberty and added it to here so it doesnt get lost
thomas hope you dont mind

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=196529

Alexie

Sep. 16, 2009, 06:12 PM

Funny you should mention this. I was talking about this to a young lady I'm mentoring who has a couple of fantastic young Cleveland Bay Mares that I'm helping her with.

I told her to get them bridled and with the bits very low in their mouths and for exactly the same reasons you mentioned. (She didn't have any curb chains).

So that is something I also do.

Thanks for your reply - I appreciate it.
I'm stubborn enough to ignore people if I think what I'm doing is the fairest to the horse, but when everyone tells you what a bad idea it is, you do start to wonder.
I shall wonder no more :)

titansrunfarm

Sep. 16, 2009, 10:02 PM

Dear Thomas 1,
Just wanted you to know that I read your bitting thread, the one line that got me was about the 'comfort' of the bit for the horse. I felt like such a fool, my mare has been getting stronger and stiffer to the left, I have tried several different bits to no avail. She has also become dry mouthed and more tense. Your thread helped me understand that it was me, not her, that needed 'remediation'. I have a very stiff and arthritic left shoulder and elbow and -duh!- that is where the stiffness had come from. I am ashamed to admit putting stronger bits in my dear mares' mouth when all along it was me that needed to loosen up on the left. So yesterday I put the softest bit I have in the barn on her bridle, took the flash noseband off, loosened the caveson by a hole and MADE myself stay as loose and soft as I could, especially on the left, and guess what? After the first few minutes, she sighed and I had the most wonderful relaxed ride, I am so grateful. No chewing yet, but I think it will come and I am not sure how it will go when she is pumped up in Furrari-mode at the shows, but I'm willing to stick with it until I am retrained.
Thomas, Thank You so much for you insight!
Amanda & PT

I wrote this to Thomas 1 via PM yesterday and I decided to post it here with the hope that others may realize that often the problems we blame our horses for are a reflection or ourselves in the saddle.

gallupgirl

Sep. 17, 2009, 06:38 AM

Thomas, could you show us a picture of a "reining machine"?

willowoodstables

Sep. 17, 2009, 09:33 AM

Another trick taught to me by an old fashioned horseman was when re-training or starting (I actually do it every time I put a bit in their mouth now adays) a jug of Glycerine and a syringe. I take a mason jar and fill it with Glycerine and add 2 drops of peppermint extract. I suck up glycerine in the syringe and then put about 1-2 cc's into their mouth. They LOVE it, they chew and slobber like crazy. I swear by it. the bonus is the peppermint tastes good and evey the ones who hate wormer learn to look for the syringe LOL
Just a tidbit passed to me I thought I would pass along

Kim

Kaeleer

Sep. 17, 2009, 10:09 AM

Titunsrunfarm, I have a totally bolloxed right shoulder, and have had a nerve decompression to my right elbow as well as surgery to my right wrist, so my right arm tends to behave like a petulant child a lot of the time and simply WON'T WON'T WON'T do as it's told.

When said right arm is in one of "those" moods, I immediately switch my rein grip and ride "Mexican", which softens my wrist, elbow and shoulder and the effect on the horse is instantaneous.

Just something to try.

pony89

Sep. 17, 2009, 12:51 PM

Hand position: (for riding) wrists rounded, elbows lightly touching your sides and thumbs across the body and on top. And light, light light contact. Take up washing lines means just that. It doesn’t mean pulling and picking up the weight.

Thomas_1, thanks for this! You have lamented my hand/arm position in previous threads where you were helping me with a little mare who was having issues. I have tried and tried to fix it, trying to get my hands in the correct position, but every time I see a picture, it's the same old issue with my arms stuck out in front of me. I read this quote and it finally clicked! Elbows touching my sides! That has been my mantra for the last few days, and my hands are magically in the right place :cool: My pony thanks you again!

Renn/aissance

Sep. 17, 2009, 03:12 PM

ambar

Sep. 17, 2009, 04:00 PM

Thomas, your point about flash nosebands and tying the horse's mouth shut made me wonder. How do you adjust your regular nosebands when working a horse? Where is the noseband in relation to the bit and to the horse's jaw, and how tight do you keep it?

I was taught the "two fingers" rule: there should be room for two fingers between the bottom of the horse's cheekbone and the top of the caveson. Similarly, when the caveson is buckled, you should be able to slide two fingers between it and the horse.

I'll be interested to hear Thomas' answer --

HorsesinHaiti

Sep. 17, 2009, 11:37 PM

Bump. I am following this with great interest, as we may need certain people to try using a pit with the pony puff here. Wish I'd seen it when I was in the states - I'd have gotten a curb chain.

Thomas_1

Sep. 19, 2009, 08:52 AM

Bridle noseband should always be roomy and for a riding horse a good guide is 2 fingers breadth between the noseband and the horse's face.

It should be fitted low enough to lie well below the horse's cheekbone.

Equine Senior

Sep. 19, 2009, 09:52 AM

Thank you all for your thoughtful replies. It is refreshing to hear real horsemen discuss a subject! I tend to get turned off by threads about "Does this bridle color go well with my horse"

Thomas_1

Sep. 19, 2009, 12:37 PM

kookicat

Sep. 19, 2009, 01:27 PM

^ that reminds me...... It should be brown if it's a riding bridle. If you want to be outrageous it could be black.

If it's a driving bridle then it's black ...... or ..................... black.

No silly colours and NO DIAMONTE OR SPARKLES!!!!

Not in my world anyway! ;)

Thomas, I have a bridle (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SHIRES-BRAND-NEW-BUDDIES-COLOURED-BLING-BRIDLE_W0QQitemZ220280199211QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_ Horse_Wear_Equipment?hash=item3349b9182b&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14#ht_1321wt_885)for you! ;)

I'll just hide my new gem browband (http://www.dressagedeluxe.co.uk/Shop.asp?viewmode=ViewProduct&productid=468) while you're looking at it....

Renn/aissance

Sep. 19, 2009, 07:25 PM

Thomas, I have a bridle (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SHIRES-BRAND-NEW-BUDDIES-COLOURED-BLING-BRIDLE_W0QQitemZ220280199211QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_ Horse_Wear_Equipment?hash=item3349b9182b&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14#ht_1321wt_885)for you! ;)

I'll just hide my new gem browband (http://www.dressagedeluxe.co.uk/Shop.asp?viewmode=ViewProduct&productid=468) while you're looking at it....

Please excuse me while I vomit.

Bridle noseband should always be roomy and for a riding horse a good guide is 2 fingers breadth between the noseband and the horse's face.

It should be fitted low enough to lie well below the horse's cheekbone.

Thank you. That is what I was taught as well. I suppose I should rephrase and really get at what I meant to ask in the first place, which is: how does a noseband too low or too high affect a horse? Sometimes when using a full cheek bit, even with keepers, the shanks are long enough to go under a properly-adjusted noseband. Does raising the noseband one hole higher, so that the bit doesn't get hung up in the noseband, significantly affect the horse?

Thomas_1

Sep. 20, 2009, 04:28 AM

goeslikestink

Sep. 21, 2009, 05:34 PM

It depends.......

Too high or too low can cause problems dependent on what bit you're using. Don't forget that the effect of the reins and bit also puts pressure on the nose and poll.

Is your horse showing signs of evasion or discomfort?

I'm thinking though that if you're having to raise the noseband so it's very high to avoid your bit that something is odd somewhere..... either your horse is particularly neat in it's head and has a short foreface or else the bit is too big.

just want to add some thing as reguards to the bit being to big

sometime cheaper makes of bits have rather larger ends-- ie for exsample a bigger D of a d ring snaffle or perhaps a larger ring for loose ring snaffle and on that if loose ring they can and often have a bump whereby it joins which also can iriratate the horse and make him sore and the sides of his cheek bleed just by pinchng
they are also sold at obviously a much cheaper price than of a dearer bit

so its wise when looking at a bridle for your horse and knowing the size of the head and mouth then wise to spend just that bit more in having

a bridle thats going to last for yonks and b a bit thats going to be comfortable for your horse and c-- its safer for both

for exsample eco leather ---- isnt and doesnt last long and will break in the wet
and you can actually tear the bridle when it gets wet -- the under side if black is greyto whitish and if tan
is tan to cardbaord looking and feels like cardboard to doesnt bend in the same way english leather does but wont hold up for the bit

in the horse mouth and will break early at the slightest pressure and when you come oil it will
actually take the oil in looks good but the then bridle is pourous
and this is when its at its most dangerous

same to with saddles so its an accident waiting to happen using cheap tack and nasty cheap bits

and on cheap leather bridles and saddles they often dont fit -and have studs rather than stitching in the most weird places

so in conclusion -- spend a bit more money and have decent well made tack and spend a bit more on a decent bit - go to saddler and have the saddle fitted properly to your horse and then to you -

i have had horses in with there own tack to school or break in and i wont use it if its eco or cheap crudy leather - as i wont put anything on a horse i think is unworthy and unsafe
and also might cuase the horse pain and also is unsafe for me to ride it or my daughter

matryoshka

Sep. 21, 2009, 08:53 PM

Wow Thomas. Great post (referring to the first, since I haven't read through all the others yet. I never thought to use a curb chain. I'll be starting a pony next year (when she's 3), and I'm going to take your advice.

I want to add that my OTTB doesn't have a hard mouth, but it sometimes feels like he does. He's a bit ewe necked, and is overmuscled in spots throughout his body that indicate tension. I'm working on the problem, and I fully expect him to have a softer feel in the bridle when we get a handle on it. He's already shown some improvement with a few sessions of body work.

Little Arab mare is wanting to put her tongue over the bit and does not seem comfortable in her bridle. I'm thinking to use the curb chain to get her playing with it. I've been trying to find a bit that is comfortable for her, but have been unsuccessful so far. She's a puzzle, and I've never had so much trouble getting a horse comfortable in the bridle before. So your post is a timely reminder to back up a few steps with her.

Thanks!

Thomas_1

Sep. 22, 2009, 02:49 AM

Ex race horses ordinarily lean on the bit. It's what they've been trained to do when they race.

The contact is pretty firm and the racehorse virtually leans into the bit almost to the point of tipping over if you release it.

I always give ex racers a new mouth and a heck of a lot of reschooling.

matryoshka

Sep. 22, 2009, 09:01 AM

Yes, I normally start them back into work bitless to get away from the leaning habit. Frank was retrained this way before adding the bit back in. Out on the trail he's always hoping I'm going to let him run (he's got a bad knee, so I can't allow him to gallop much, but he can canter). It feels a bit more like body stiffness to me than the traditional "lean on the bit". Perhaps, though, I should try your curb-chain technique and see if that also helps him. Especially since my daughter is now riding him in lessons. He's a sweet horse.

Renn/aissance

Sep. 22, 2009, 02:53 PM

I'm thinking though that if you're having to raise the noseband so it's very high to avoid your bit that something is odd somewhere..... either your horse is particularly neat in it's head and has a short foreface or else the bit is too big.

The horse in question is very petite--an 11 year old Thoroughbred gelding who has been mistaken for a 3-year-old filly. He is fine-boned and has a small head. The specific bit that was necessitating the noseband to go up a hole was a properly-sized 4 3/4" full cheek Dr. Bristol. The shanks on the bit were normal length for a bit of that size, but because Amigo's face is so tiny, slipped under the noseband when the noseband was normally adjusted. Raised it one hole and it was fine. He didn't seem to care, but I was curious as to the effect on him.

GLS, I agree with you about spending more money to buy good-quality, well-fitting tack. That can be a pain with bridles but we can always have pieces cut down to fit after the fact!

Now I have to figure out how to balance my horse's comfort with actually getting some effect out of his favorite bit, a happy mouth D ring with a peanut in the middle and Sealtex wrapped around it! Good thing he has a good response to "Whoa!" because I would have to use brute strength to try to stop him in it if he really got going.

Thomas_1

Sep. 22, 2009, 04:40 PM

I've got an enormous great traditional English heavy hunter that's a Cleveland Bay Cross. He stands at 18 hands but his head is HUGE. Probably the biggest is horsedom!!! Noseband is 29 inches!

I had to have his bridle made for him.

JSwan

Sep. 22, 2009, 04:45 PM

I had to have his bridle made for him.

Umm... not to pry but may I ask how much such a bridle goes for? I assume it's flat and heavy.

Because my Perch cross has got quite a head on him, poor thing. I cobbled a bridle together for schooling but it's not something I'd use for hunting.

Thomas_1

Sep. 22, 2009, 04:47 PM

It was £210 and that included leather and rubberised grip reins.

I didn't think that was too bad.

He had a cobbled together bridle for quite some time till he eventually finished growing.

I posted about him some time ago and with some photos here on post 278 and modelling his bridle

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=2566143&highlight=fugly#post2566143

Renn/aissance

Sep. 22, 2009, 05:11 PM

I can see why he needed custom work! Hope his head is so big because it has to have room for a big sensible brain, at that size. (And if I'm doing my pounds to dollars conversion correctly, that seems a reasonable price for a custom bridle.)

What size bit do you get for a horse sized like that? Is he a 6" or bigger?

Thomas_1

Sep. 22, 2009, 05:14 PM

At the time when it was done the conversion rate was double it for $ but then we had an economic crisis! Now its worse for us and equates $394.

He's actually a really sweet natured horse. A gentle giant. No idea how big he is.

A little hard of thinking and reacting but heck there's a long way for thought to travel from his brain to his legs.

By gosh can he jump though!!!!

JSwan

Sep. 22, 2009, 05:30 PM

That's not a bad price for a custom job.

I cobbled together everything until he stopped growing. I am hoping and praying he has stopped because if he gets to be 18h I don't know if I want to hunt him!

My guy is a little sickle hocked, and his head is a little coarser - Your horse is a much better example of a heavy hunter. I like him.

Usually I like a french snaffle for a young horse, but the one I had he didn't seem to care for. I started playing with bits and found that a thinner single jointed snaffle seemed to be more to his liking. I sent him to a friend (former jump jockey) for schooling so was able to get feedback from a more educated horseman.

What do you hunt that horse in?

Thomas_1

Sep. 22, 2009, 05:34 PM

goeslikestink

Sep. 22, 2009, 05:59 PM

kimblewick bit is what i use on the tbs i have to re do as in re school i find thats a happy medium bit for them alway works well
i also use the kimblewick for ponies for kids as like thomas 1 knows its a tad stronger than a snaffle but not as strong as pelham

i designed raspberry tack myself as my mates dad is a qualified master saddler
so was cheap all in for 150.00 nice black saddle which has knee rolls and thigh rolls on the outside plus slight knee roll underneath the saddle which as debs had cdh when younger needed her legs to be built up in mussle but also to be still when ridden so not and wasnt like a pendalium clock and as you know thomas theres only an ankle at the bottom of a saddle with kids that are tiny - not like us adults that have a calf then our ankles
so the idea was to keep the leg sitting in the middle - in turn this helped her pelvis sit straight raspberry bridle is black with silver clinches on the nose band and brow band and the bit is eldonian snaffle eggbutt
its all very well made and still is as good today as it was when debs was 5 both are 26yrs old i have had old raspberry since she was two and debs was two
tell you too thomas of the lead rein raspberry is no push over you have to ride her properly other wise like all good welsh ponies shes smarter than most and will take the pee with glee
for instance when she was younger used to take the pee when in season so taught debs at a very early age to ride in a double bridle when is a a double and not with roundings
is 4inch eldonian narrow loose ring snaffle and 4in eldonain tom thumb pelham complete with lip strap and curb chain

so debs was tuaght early in life the difference from the direct rein and the curb rein

and i cheat with bonnie as i have roundings in pelham but its not for her more for me as i cant feel her in a snaffle due to my bad hands and she cant feel me either as i am that light in the hands

JSwan

Sep. 22, 2009, 06:06 PM

He's not badly made but for the first 3/4 years of his life he looked like a horse designed by a committee!

He's won a few Heavy Hunter classes and the last photo on that link is him just having won a very strong heavy hunter class at the Royal Highland Show.

He's hunted in a kimblewick.

I know what you mean. I kept wanting to put my guy out in the back field so no one could see him. :lol:

My current hunter goes in the Uxeter Kimberwicke (I think we Yanks mangled the proper name of that bit). Really practical, no nonsense bit. When we first started hunting I used a Pelham but he settled and the Kimberwicke is fine.

Thomas_1

Sep. 22, 2009, 06:12 PM

It's a Uttoxeter Kimblewick.

Named after the towns of Uttoxeter and Kimblewick.

But hey ho I guess we could always change the names of the towns so you were right ;)

The kimblewick is effective because it's actioning on the curb and poll and helps to be there if needed to keep the head from raising or getting above the bit.

In truth though this horse is a "fail safe" horse. He's intrinsically very calm and takes everything as it comes. He just has a huge lolloping canter out in the field and then a beautiful neat jump.

If he does break into an unintentional spook and scoot it's about 4 strides and then he sort of goes "Oh F it, I can't be bothered!"

JSwan

Sep. 22, 2009, 06:14 PM

It's a Uttoxeter Kimblewick.

Well no wonder the Yanks mangled the name. Sounds awfully foreign!:lol:

sublimequine

Sep. 22, 2009, 06:24 PM

Thomas_1

Sep. 22, 2009, 06:25 PM

You didn't mangle the name.

You wrecked the English language ;)

Thomas_1

Sep. 22, 2009, 06:25 PM

This might be a stupid question but instead of putting a curb chain in the horse's mouth to learn to play with it, why don't you actually use a chain bit, Thomas? They're quite common in the western world.

Because I'm in the UK! We don't have a lot of cowboys here :winkgrin:

Renn/aissance

Sep. 22, 2009, 06:27 PM

You didn't mangle the name.

You wrecked the English language ;)

:lol: I can understand Uxeter Kimberwick out of Uttoxeter Kimblewick. What I want to know is, why the sam hell don't we pronounce "scone" correctly over here?

goeslikestink

Sep. 22, 2009, 06:27 PM

This might be a stupid question but instead of putting a curb chain in the horse's mouth to learn to play with it, why don't you actually use a chain bit, Thomas? They're quite common in the western world.

i have seen those chain bits and to be honest the links would catch the tongue
whereby a curb wont

Renn/aissance

Sep. 22, 2009, 06:28 PM

i have seen those chain bits and to be honest the links would catch the tongue
whereby a curb wont

Can't a horse get his tongue pinched in the links of a curb chain, though? (Not saying he can't do the same in a chain bit; haven't seen one of those.)

sublimequine

Sep. 22, 2009, 06:32 PM

Because I'm in the UK! We don't have a lot of cowboys here :winkgrin:

I need to ship you one! I'll make sure and get one that has conchos and a cross and barbed wire designs on the cheekpieces. :winkgrin: :lol: :lol:

Thomas_1

Sep. 22, 2009, 06:42 PM

Can't a horse get his tongue pinched in the links of a curb chain, though? (Not saying he can't do the same in a chain bit; haven't seen one of those.)

Not if you twist it so it lies flat as you should always properly do with a curb chain.

goeslikestink

Sep. 22, 2009, 06:43 PM

Can't a horse get his tongue pinched in the links of a curb chain, though? (Not saying he can't do the same in a chain bit; haven't seen one of those.)

http://www.smithbrothers.com/category.asp_Q_c_E_35 this is a ported one with fixed bit in the middle
another type is like a doc bristol with a plate in the middle
and some are with a lookalike curb chain going across but are fixed on the middle ring of the d ring on the sides of the bit so the play is limited

yet the action could be harsh when ridden - in those types of bits with bad hands as often they come with leverage actions

so the curb chain hasnt got the leverage action with the bit its a chain with the intentions of being used as a mouthing aid to the horse

put it this way if one was taking of the bridle with a leaverage action one might cop the horse in the gob by accident therefore defeating the object of what your trying to achieve
when bitting a horse its to give him confidence of your intentions bridling up and unbridling and accepting the bit - a chain is loose and playful thing has no leavrage its a chain on its own
so when tacking up or taking off its not going to hurt him in the mouth

well thats my theary anyways

kookicat

Sep. 22, 2009, 06:44 PM

Can't a horse get his tongue pinched in the links of a curb chain, though? (Not saying he can't do the same in a chain bit; haven't seen one of those.)

I'm not sure if I've got a picture but I'll have a look and if not, I'll try to remember to take one.

The tongue never gets pinched because the curbs are properly turned so they lay flat and they're loose.

3 is the most I've used. But I've seen 4 and even 5 used on older horses that have been totally spoilt with over bitting, heavy hands, fixed to side reins and with a mouth clamped with a gob strap.

:)

Thomas_1

Sep. 22, 2009, 06:45 PM

:lol: I can understand Uxeter Kimberwick out of Uttoxeter Kimblewick. What I want to know is, why the sam hell don't we pronounce "scone" correctly over here?

Well I don't know how you guys pronounce scone but over here there's variations in it's pronounciation.

It can be as in to rhyme with zone

or as in to rhyme with don

I use the latter.

kookicat

Sep. 22, 2009, 06:47 PM

Well I don't know how you guys pronounce scone but over here there's variations in it's pronounciation.

It can be as in to rhyme with zone

or as in to rhyme with don

I use the latter.

SCooone or Skon lol. I say Skon ;)

sublimequine

Sep. 22, 2009, 06:49 PM

Here's what I was referring to:

http://www.buytack.com/products/bits/rep/graphics/131.jpg

The chain isn't quite the same as a curb chain but it seems like it would serve the same purpose, lots of links to play with. But I don't know, never used one myself.

But here's what I think you need, Thomas ;) :

http://www.windstormranch.com/images/EG-PB1lg.jpg

You'll be the talk of the town! :lol::lol::lol:

Thomas_1

Sep. 22, 2009, 06:50 PM

That tends to be the northern way.

Which is why I say it that way.

I can't wait to see how the Americans say it in view of their innovative ways with Kimblewick and Uttoxeter

kookicat

Sep. 22, 2009, 06:51 PM

kookicat

Sep. 22, 2009, 06:52 PM

That tends to be the northern way.

Which is why I say it that way.

I can't wait to see how the Americans say it in view of their innovative ways with Kimblewick and Uttoxeter

From what I've heard, it's the SCooone way. :)

Thomas_1

Sep. 22, 2009, 06:53 PM

Here's what I was referring to:

http://www.buytack.com/products/bits/rep/graphics/131.jpg
The chain isn't quite the same as a curb chain but it seems like it would serve the same purpose, lots of links to play with. But I don't know, never used one myself. I've seen them when I've been over there. They're not the same at all. That's just a tight chain.

But here's what I think you need, Thomas ;) :

http://www.windstormranch.com/images/EG-PB1lg.jpg Very handy..... when the horse behaves badly you take it out of his mouth and shoot him. :yes:... right??

You'll be the talk of the town! :lol::lol::lol: With our gun legislation I'd be the talk of the courthouse and jail!

sublimequine

Sep. 22, 2009, 06:56 PM

I've seen them when I've been over there. They're not the same at all. That's just a tight chain.

Very handy..... when the horse behaves badly you take it out of his mouth and shoot him. :yes:... right??

With our gun legislation I'd be the talk of the courthouse and jail!

Not you.. perhaps your horse though! :lol::lol::lol:

goeslikestink

Sep. 22, 2009, 07:01 PM

Not you.. perhaps your horse though! :lol::lol::lol:

ooh i got a pub i do that would just love the gun bit --- its a western line dancing pub has so much indian and cowboy stuff including loads hats boots guns spurs and christ knows what every time i go its like a little western artifact place heaps of goodies

KarenRO

Nov. 23, 2009, 08:20 PM

Thomas,

In the newest thread on the use of the flash in the Chronicle of the Horse Dressage Forum, someone reposted this link to your philosophy about mouthing and bitting. Your thoughts made me examine the bit and bridle currently in use on my 4-year old Canadian Sport Horse gelding.

Since I purchased him, he has worked in a snug noseband and flash with a thick single-jointed snaffle (22mm). I have noticed that he keeps his mouth open despite the flash and there are often little flaps of skin around the corners of his mouth. He alternates curling his neck and dropping the bit with sticking his head straight out and grabbing the bit. In between these antics, he does very well. :-)

After reading your post, I decided to experiment. Today, I pulled off the flash, loosened the noseband, and replaced the bulky snaffle with an eggbutt french link (16mm). It was like riding a different horse! He still occassionally stuck his nose out but did not grab the bit and, for the most part, I had contact on both reins in both directions at the walk, trot and canter and no curling. I was riding with a friend so she could observe his mouth and she said he did not open it once but I could feel him mouthing the bit. Could this be a first time fluke? I'll ride again on Wednesday and see!

Thank you for your thought-provoking post!

KarenRO

Thomas_1

Nov. 29, 2009, 01:08 PM

Glad you've noticed an immediate improvement and I sincerely hope this continues and look forward to hearing how things progress.

goeslikestink

Nov. 29, 2009, 02:41 PM

that was me -thomas is a highly respected horseman here is advice is second to none so i always link his advice on my helpful links pages or attached it in a post if needed

Gry2Yng

Dec. 29, 2009, 09:34 PM

Excellent thread. I very much appreciate the information.

My current youngster is a 4 yo Canadian Sport Horse. Came to me 30 days under saddle, grinding his teeth. It seemed to be caused by nerves as he did it at the start of a ride or when left alone in the ring after having had company. I put a kk with a rubber nugget in his mouth and loose plain caveson. He seemed happy with the bit, some light chewing and the occasional chomp on the rubber nugget. I eventually found a roller kk that he likes even better and the grinding has disappeared. He does continue to make noises with his palate. At least that is what I think he is doing. This is only at the canter, only at the beginning of the ride or when the dogs go off after a bird or someone leaves the ring. He is not curled or behind the vertical when he does this.

Does this sound like a physical issue or a training issue that I might be able to solve by letting him play with the chains. He generally chews softly on the bit and salivates appropriately. He is a lovely horse and is coming along well in his training in both dressage and jumping, but I am not sure what to think of this noise. Those in the ring can't hear it. By the time I say "that noise" he isn't doing it anymore.

Your thoughts would appreciated. I am from the midwestern united states. I say scone that rhymes with zone.

ETA: Originally the grinding and now the palate noise also occur when he is learning something new.

JennieRose

Dec. 30, 2009, 12:18 PM

I'm lucky enough to ride right now with a guy who has trained and ridden some of the "greats" in UK eventing (seriously, this guy cracks me up...). The *first* thing he does at the start of each of my lessons is remove the flash (he trains out of a barn with an upper level dressage trainer, and we use her school horses). I'm learning an enormous amount about proper soft contact and the timing required in releasing a horse from the contact for a variety of reasons.
It's been breathtaking, some of the horses I've ridden with him have gone from heavy and locked to soft and light over the course of an hour; I've really enjoyed it. There's nothing like learning from someone who has done everything and is kind and concerned for the horses.

Foxtrot's

Dec. 30, 2009, 03:16 PM

Call me old fashioned but thre is some good advice in amongst these comments - makes a change from all the new-wave stuff we hear so much about.

Thomas_1

Dec. 30, 2009, 06:26 PM

Excellent thread. I very much appreciate the information.

My current youngster is a 4 yo Canadian Sport Horse. Came to me 30 days under saddle, grinding his teeth. I need to warn you that I'm REALLY cynical about what you do in 30 days. As in REALLY REALLY cynical!!!!

Does this sound like a physical issue or a training issue that I might be able to solve by letting him play with the chains. He generally chews softly on the bit and salivates appropriately. He is a lovely horse and is coming along well in his training in both dressage and jumping, but I am not sure what to think of this noise. Those in the ring can't hear it. By the time I say "that noise" he isn't doing it anymore.

Your thoughts would appreciated. I am from the midwestern united states. I say scone that rhymes with zone.

ETA: Originally the grinding and now the palate noise also occur when he is learning something new. Sounds to me like something is definitely bothering him.

The problem may be teeth and particularly in view of his age. When was he last checked?

Or with the thickness or position of the bit, or with its adjustment in his mouth. I don't actually know the bits you mentioned but a photo of them may help and if you can also post one showing you riding. Even a still just showing you side on at trot will do if that's all you can manage. You can email it to me if you don't want the whole of COTH telling you what bit to change to ;)

It may be your use of hands and because you're saying he's just doing it on canter transition I'm wondering if you might unknowingly be holding him back there. Remember horses have a limited number of ways of expressing their opinions and saying something is bothering them. Messing about with a bit is sometimes one of those ways, dependent on the circumstances.

So it's best to check everything to do with the bridle, the bit, the horse's mouth and the your hands. You may also want to rule out the likes of pain elsewhere though I'm thinking from your description that's not likely.

I presume this is a new horse to you? Have you got all new tack? Is it nice and soft and flexible or is it all stiff and new? Check it's not the latter and not causing him discomfort. Check the bridle, browband and noseband in particular, even if it isn't too short, if it's new it might be rubbing. If the browband is also too short, the pain can be excruciating and because there's limited ways of saying "I don't like that" it may even be that.

Without seeing the horse, it's hard to make good suggestions, but I hope those suggestions give you food for thought.

Gry2Yng

Dec. 30, 2009, 07:26 PM

I need to warn you that I'm REALLY cynical about what you do in 30 days. As in REALLY REALLY cynical!!!!

By 30 days under saddle, I only mean that someone had backed him. Nothing expected from him when I got him except that he was used to the weight of the rider. I bought him from the breeder. I am now too old too get bucked off starting one. I have had him for almost 12 months now.

The problem may be teeth and particularly in view of his age. When was he last checked?

Teeth were done by a vet that specializes a few weeks after he arrived. Coming up on one year now. He was checked in Nov, will be checked again in Feb. He is missing one front tooth (upper). Was kicked by a pasture mate.

Or with the thickness or position of the bit, or with its adjustment in his mouth. I don't actually know the bits you mentioned but a photo of them may help and if you can also post one showing you riding. Even a still just showing you side on at trot will do if that's all you can manage. You can email it to me if you don't want the whole of COTH telling you what bit to change to ;)

Here is a link to the two bits I use. Smartpak's site has a nice way to magnify the image, so I chose their link. I jump him in this one. (Not legal for dressage.)

http://www.smartpakequine.com/productclass.aspx?productClassid=7106

I do dressage in this one.

http://www.doversaddlery.com/herm-sprenger-wh-ultra-loose-ring-snaffle-bit/p/X1-01871/cn/1582/

It may be your use of hands and because you're saying he's just doing it on canter transition I'm wondering if you might unknowingly be holding him back there.

Here is a link to some photos. They are a conf shot at 3, a walk/trot test after about 90 days with me, a 2'6" hunter round after about 6 months with me, and two photos from a horse trial after about 9 months with me.

http://web.me.com/chichipony/Site/Vinnie_2.html

It is not during the transitions, it is during the canters round the ring. It sounds a bit like heavy breathing, but it is intermittent, so I have dismissed roaring.

So it's best to check everything to do with the bridle, the bit, the horse's mouth and the your hands. You may also want to rule out the likes of pain elsewhere though I'm thinking from your description that's not likely.

Strangely enough, I put a new browband on him a few weeks ago. He went thru a growth spurt and I had to change the settings on all the buckles and replace the browband.

I presume this is a new horse to you? Have you got all new tack? Is it nice and soft and flexible or is it all stiff and new? Check it's not the latter and not causing him discomfort. Check the bridle, browband and noseband in particular, even if it isn't too short, if it's new it might be rubbing. If the browband is also too short, the pain can be excruciating and because there's limited ways of saying "I don't like that" it may even be that.

I have had the horse for almost a year. He just had the saddles custom flocked to his tracings from a master saddler. Both the saddle and the bridle are well broken in, as in years of good use. They are well made and well cared for.

Without seeing the horse, it's hard to make good suggestions, but I hope those suggestions give you food for thought.

Thank you for all of your suggestions. I am thinking of having him scoped just to ensure it is not laryngeal. I was hoping someone else had experienced something similar. I have 2 bottles of wine, nicely chilled, so I believe I am prepared to hear about anything.

Thomas_1

Dec. 30, 2009, 07:47 PM

Nice horse .....

I'm not seeing anything that strikes out as obvious.

A little more tension through the reins than I like to see and I'm sorry but I must say that your hands would be better a little further back and with your thumbs on top and wrists rounded..... but I'm only saying that because I'm a finnicky old riding instructor and not because I'm seeing anything horrific there.

He's not cutting his canine teeth is he?

Have you checked the bit placement in relation to his teeth? Specifically check it's not a little too high.

From your description, it's not sounding like roaring or whistling to me.

Is he fit? I must say that he looks it on the photos but has he got decent aerobic stamina? I'd be inclined to take him out for a blast gallop or canter up hill and see what happens.... if it's better or worse.

Uphill because you'll not have any tension in the reins then and also to get him to concentrate on having a blast rather than playing or messing with the bit if it is that and also to check/rule out any respiratory or pharyngeal thing?

Oh and I nearly spat my drink at the screen when I saw the price of those bits! Did the Yorkshire Farmer's War Cry..... "HOW MUCH" ;) So you nearly owed me a glass of that chilled wine!

Gry2Yng

Dec. 30, 2009, 09:08 PM

Thank you.

LOL! I cringed a bit posting those photos as I knew you would nail me for my hands. I am actually quite neurotic about my hand position but apparently this horse suckers me in. OK. Now I am looking at photos on other horses, competition must sucker me in. Darn it if I don't pay strict attention to where my thumbs/hands are at home. Doesn't seem to help when the photog is around. :lol:

Yes, expensive bits, but I love them. Isn't there an expression about fitting the bit to the rider's hands, not to the horse's mouth. I have yet to ride one that doesn't find the contact and mouth the bit with these KK's, I have everything from the thinest to the thickest they make. I have some older ones that are not made with the aurigan silver, they are very nice, but the aurigan seems to really encourage salivation.

I will check on the canines and bit placement.

He is not aerobically fit and has not had the opportunity to go out for a gallop yet (just wasn't willing to do that last summer before brakes and balance were installed) and won't have the opportunity again until the snow thaws and the mud disappears. He has a lot of blood, so when he gets nervous or upset I find it takes a while to get to the bottom of him, but I think it is a very false form of endurance. The noise disappears the longer he works at the canter. I once tried an OTTB's that "displaced" his soft palate. I am not sure if that was code for "roarer", but I can't really remember what it sounded like.

I appreciate the thoughts, and the opportunity to chat with you. I am hoping this will be a nice upper level event horse, I would hate for compromised wind to get in his way.

Cheers!

HER

Dec. 31, 2009, 10:55 AM

"Roaring" typically refers to laryngeal paralysis, where one of the horse's arytenoid cartilages in his larynx does not "open" up when he breaths. Since it's essentially obstructing his airway there is usually a noise all the time when exerted. The event horses that I have seen as "roarers" do it continuously at the canter. I suppose milder cases could be intermittant but I haven't seen too many to know. I'm not sure if horses that flip their soft palate make noise or not. I owned an OTTB for two years, evented him BN, jumper shows etc then went to sell him. He went on trial and during his PPE they diagnosed him as flipping his palate. He had never made a noise since I'd owned him. Since I needed to sell him right then I didn't talk to that vet or argue about it but I wonder. As an aside he was very fussy with the bit- I never found anything comfortable for him, but that may have been my lack of training experience too!

On a totally different note:
I have been reading this whole thread and thinking about my guy. He is an 8 yr old OTTB that came off the track at 4 with minimal starts. He is sound with a good mind. We event, currently at prelim, and he totally takes care of me jumping. He has always been steady in dressage, holds a steady contact, decent mover, but he is very forward and gets strong and heavy in the bridle. For XC I have ended up in a pelham to be able to slow down for fences. I only need the curb rein occasionally, can mostly just ride on the snaffle but usually need extra oomph to rebalance.
But I'm getting frustrated in our dressage work. We do continual transitions, lateral work etc to try to get him off his forehand and mostly he still just leans and ignores me. I try to ask for every downward transition very correctly with my body before my hands but all of our downwards are still mostly on the forehand. Especially anything to the halt and anything from the canter. At a few trainers suggestions I practiced dressage in the pelham for awhile and we did seem to get lighter but it does not carry over back to the snaffle at all. He is in a loose ring Myler with the roller barrel middle piece. So, thoroughly frustrated I want to try something different.
Yesterday I put the curb chain in his mouth as Thomas described. At times he would just hold it in his mouth, then he would mouth it for awhile, then hold it. If he is not mouthing all the time do I need more curb chains? Then I loosened his noseband, took off the flash, and started long lining again. I didn't get to ride because of an emergency, but what tips do you have for riding? Focus on soft hands, should I throw all contact away when he leans? How should I work on downward transitions? I am trying to focus on his comfort to improve this since obviously so many other things have not worked. Thanks for any input.
Helen

Thomas_1

Dec. 31, 2009, 11:04 AM

Don't forget that if he's been racing then he'll be used to a firm contact. The racing technique is that the horse almost uses his bit to support himself as he virtually tips beyond the point of balance. They always seek the quite firm contact almost as a reassurance. The other thing is though they tend to respond to seat aids pretty quickly so get yourself right back into the saddle to transition him down.

I tend to throw contact away with them. It's ex racers that I tend to increase curb chains with and rather than increasing the power of the bit, reduce it.

jeano

Dec. 31, 2009, 12:21 PM

Lowly non competetive trail rider butting in, here....

I had lots of bit problems with my gelding when I got him--he's a grade TWH and was being ridden (rarely) in a typical walking horse bit with longish shanks. All I do is trail ride, so what works for the horse will work for me, but he was just very nervous and unhappy with the various things I tried with him. I wanted to put him in a snaffle and he hated the one I tried (full cheek, copper mouth). He likes copper maybe too much; he'd almost shred one.

I had various western bits I tried, most of them he would pick up, drop, pick up, drop, sort of slamming them into his teeth. Finally found a bit with a roller (not a free spinning thing, more like a Billy Allen, but with shanks, and he was happy with the mouthpiece but i was not happy riding a shanked bit at all, because my hands are crap and this horse has a nice mouth...

Long story short, he is happy as a clam with a three-piece mouth piece (with the oval middle piece) loose ring snaffle. He will lean on it some when he goes fast but will soften immediately to one rein. (He's evidently had a weird mix of training. He can tuck and collect and extemd amd swap leads and two-track like someone wanted him to be a dressage horse, but he has the one-rein stop thing down cold. I have no idea who trained him or for how long, but he is Broke. To. Death. And he deserves a better rider than the one he's stuck with, bless him.)

In the current bit he has happy foam, plays and chews with the bit, but pays attention to it. This was purely dumb luck on my part.

Now, I need to accumulate some curb chains and re-do the mare's mouth. I know her former owner rode mostly drunk and used a grazing bit on her. She certainly knows how to brace her neck and lock her jaw. She also does fairly well in the same snaffle as the gelding, or in a very mild, short shanked and barely ported walking horse bit, but she could use some remediation.

I can ride the gelding into the godawfulest tight spots and get him back out again due to his superior steering--the mare, I have to be prepared to lose hide off my knees or duck my head in similar places.