Tying without the butt bar up, "professional' hauler says he never uses butt bars!

[Fairview Horse Center]

A family was moving their 4 horses across country today. They contracted with a hauling company. Trailer is a 4 horse head to head. When they go to load one of the back ones, there are no butt bars. When I asked were the butt bars were, he said he never hauls with them, just closes the ramp. I pointed out how dangerous that was, not only for the person lifting the ramp, but ramps can and have fallen off several makes of trailers, he told me to quit trying to tell him how to haul horses. He said he had been hauling all over the country like that for many years. :eek:

He planned to just tie the one horse, with nothing behind him while the last was loaded.

I pushed the issue with the horses' owners, and after tellling me that the "trailer did not come with butt bars", he miraculously said he had them, but couldn't get to them. He proceedes to throw a fit about how he should just leave without the horses. Finally he rummages around and finds them. He puts the bar up for the one loaded horse, and they bring out the yearling that has never been loaded. Angel boy loads right up, and the hauler ties him to a rubber stretchie :dead: with no butt bar. :mad:

One of the barn girls quickly unties him, and holds him until she sees the 2nd (found) butt bar up. Next thing I see is everyone out of the trailer, and the hauler takes away the butt bar from behind the yearling. :eek: I guess he had the wrong pin, and took it up to the truck to find the one that fit. :no:

No one was near the yearling. Thankfully the yearling stood tied, with NO butt bar behind him (ramp still down). I am flipping out from a distance at this point, and by the time I get out there, the bar is back in place. Hauler grudgingly agreed to use the butt bars for this haul.

How can someone be a professional hauler and not know trailer loading 101? NEVER tie a horse until the butt bar is up. Never drop the butt bar until the horse is untied.

They are stopping 3 nights across the country. Fortunately the owner is following the rig the whole way, but she has no experience hauling, and I think is not sure who to believe, him or me.

I hope they are ok. Two of the horses are my "babies" - the yearling, and a 13 year old. :(

[MHM]

When he threw the fit and said he should just leave, I would have agreed with him. :yes:

[Fairview Horse Center]

That was my thought, but sadly, they are not mine anymore.

[AlfalfaGirl]

what a waterhead. I learned the hard way not to tie before butt bar is in place. Not a pretty site!

[Meredith Clark]

I understand what you're saying with butt bar safety, did he say why he doesn't use them.. like specific examples?

I have a stock trailer; I have to open the back door to get in while the horse is still tied. He knows he's not allowed to back off until I've untied him.

I don't think it would be really safe to do it any other way unless I had someone helping me, which I usually don't.

[Paddys Mom]

My non-horsey husband saw first-hand why butt bars are important last week.

I had untied my horse and dropped the butt bar but hadn't opened the door yet. Something spooked my horse and he flew backwards into the closed door and scrambled around for a few moments. He was able to bend the latch enough so the door was open about 4 inches. :mad:

[2foals]

Yikes! Scary! Someone should telephone the main office of the company that this person works for and discuss this issue. That is completely unsafe, and I were running that hauling company I would want to know that this was going on!

It is very dangerous to not have some kind of a "butt bar" securing the horse in it's stall. I know of two people who were badly injured by horses flying out the back of trailers where they weren't secured properly with a butt bar.

Even a stock trailer used for horses should (IMO) have a rear bar that goes across the back of the trailer inside the doors/ramp. I have a four horse slant, and the rear stall has a full width butt bar that fits into place inside the ramp. If I am loading alone, I do generally tie that last horse before I quickly snap the butt bar into place, but even that makes me nervous--I would never put a horse I didn't know in that slot unless I had help so someone could hold the horse until the butt bar was up.

[Kaleigh007]

He would have left with an empty trailer while I called around for a new hauler.

[Eventer55]

He would have left with an empty trailer while I called around for a new hauler.

ditto

[Fairview Horse Center]

There are quite a few reasons for butt bars & my upsetment with this "professional" hauling company.

First, the safety issue for the human(s) trying to pick up a ramp that may have a 1200 pound horse throwing themselves back on to it at any second. Pinned under a ramp is a painful way to die. The hauler asked the horse owner to put up the ramp, and she didn't know enough to say NO!

Second, the issue of trying ANY horse, much less a baby his first time loading before a butt bar was secured. Even worse, removing it when he was tied.

Third, tying the horses with rubber stretchies, that when they break, slingshot back, smacking them in the face, or quite likely taking out an eye.

Fourth, hauling without butt bars is just very dangerous. Butt bars are designed to take the weight of the horse, not the ramp latch and hinges.

Fifth, even with butt bars in place, several popular and expensive trailers have had ramps just fall off in recent years. That is dangerous enough WITH a butt bar, but I can't imagine the train wreck of that happening going down the road with no butt bar.

Sixth, butt bars are in place to help keep the box of the trailer "squared up" in case of an accident.

Unfortunately, this hauling company IS the guy and his wife, so reporting him to the owner won't do any good. It may have also cost them their 50% deposit, but personally, no way would I have sent my horses off with someone that proved he was a dangerous idiot with no common sense, and a bad attitude.

I can tell you that I will not be giving them a good recommendation, if anyone asks!

I hope they arrive ok. They have to do several unloads, and re-loads before they get to their new home. :( I am just afraid the owner will go with the hauler's way of doing things, once they are off my farm. :no:

[2foals]

It also sounds like you were caught in the middle a little bit here--I'm glad the owners listened to you and hopefully they will insist that things are done properly for the rest of the drive.

It's hard to tell other people that what they are doing with their horses isn't safe. I had a situation recently when an owner decided to save money by coming to pick up his super-nice TB (racing) broodmare instead of hiring a commercial shipper. He showed up with a tiny little two horse with a manger front. The trailer was in good condition, but just not an appropriate trailer for a large (and valuable) TB mare--esp for a long trip. I wanted to say no, I don't think this is a good idea, but they had just driven 10 hours to get here, and it is their mare, and they supposedly had trailered her before in this trailer. When she finally got on, she panicked and cut up her shoulder before we could get her off. I was so upset about it. The irony is that they owned a nice big new gooseneck, they just brought the smaller trailer to save money on gas!

[Kaleigh007]

You have to wonder what ELSE the new owners DON'T know about horses...using a butt bar while trailering is kind of a no brainer no??

[fivehorses]

Let me say, I use the butt bar.
I also know a trainer in this area who specializes in trailer loading who never uses a butt bar, and encourages others not to use them.
I thought I was odd person out, using the butt bar.

I also want to point out, by not using a butt bar, and closing a ramp door, if the horse starts to come out and pushes on the ramp, you could get caught and trip or fall, and that ramp could come down on you. So, even if you don't think about the horses safety, think about your own.

[2foals]

I also want to point out, by not using a butt bar, and closing a ramp door, if the horse starts to come out and pushes on the ramp, you could get caught and trip or fall, and that ramp could come down on you. So, even if you don't think about the horses safety, think about your own.

This is how both of the people I know were injured. In one case the ramp crushed the person's foot and it took over a year for the wound to heal. In the other case the lady was crushed underneath the ramp and was in the hospital with broken ribs, etc.

[shawneeAcres]

If I had a straight load ramp trailer then I would use butt bars. I don't however, I have a slant load which does not have butt bars. I always make sure the horses are untied BEFORE opening the partitions, although I dont' allow them to begin backing up until I get to their head. I have also had stock trailers, which do not come with butt bars, and again, if you make sure head is untied before opening doors, not a problem, however, I ONLY use stepups trailers I HATE ramp loads, but the one time I had a ramp load I'd certainly never begin letting it down without butt bars up!!

[Melelio]

My slant load has a butt bar. It's always up unless loading or unloading, even sitting in the driveway.

[Bluey]

We only use open stock trailers and they are step up and with a one piece door, although the larger ones tend to have a two piece door, which would help if a horse tries to back up.

I have heard some with trailers with butt bars that they have been in wrecks, where the horse got partly under them and injured it's back and they don't use any any more because of that.

We used to have a two horse enclosed trailer for some quick runs to the track and we had butt chains covered with rubber in it.
The chains would hang a little bit and would keep a horse in even if it squatted down, unlike a stiff bar.

[cyriz's mom]

actually, not to tie a horse in a trailer until the butt bar is up. If you are tying them and they pull back (or run back), there is a real possibility of losing some fingers.

I personally know of two people who have lost one or more fingers from that very thing. The first lady was about 20 yrs. ago. She lost three fingers on one hand. They were reattached and with a lot of work, she regained some use of them. The other just happened a couple of weeks ago and the lady lost her thumb. It was also reattached, but because it wasn't a clean cut (like a knife or saw wound), there was some major concern about nerve regeneration.

I NEVER TIE A HORSE IN A TRAILER WITHOUT A BUTT BAR UP.

[SBrentnall]

A professional hauler loaded my horse, then left him tied in the trailer while she fussed with the divider. He decided he'd had enough and pulled back, snapping his halter. Flew backwards out of the trailer and tripped over his hind legs on the ramp. Sat down like a dog and rolled off on his back.

Result? Torn sacroiliac ligament on my dream dressage horse, the one I moved to a smaller house in order to buy. 18 months of rehab, stem cell therapy and $5k in vet bills, etc. ON TOP of the $10k paid by my insurance.

Horse is now strong enough for 3rd level work but we've lost two years, he has a permanent dent in his butt and collection is proving more difficult than before.

Never believe a professional over your own gut. I'm still kicking myself for that.

[Ty2003]

Many years ago, one of our boarders (also a good friend) had a mare who was absolutely terrible about loading. So the owner started working with her each day, getting her to load and feeding her on the trailer. One day, the owner decided to do this by herself, with the trailer parked in the yard, outside the fenced-in barn area. The horse walked on and started eating her grain, so the owner hooked her halter and walked around the back to put up the butt bar. Horse flipped out, broke halter, flew off the back of the trailer and proceeded to run across the front yard of our house, toward a barn across the street where she had lived at one point. She ran into the road where she got hit by a car going 40 mph. All I remember is hearing the owner screaming from the street. We all ran out of the house to find the horse on the side of the road, with all four of her legs broken, trying to stand up. That was, hands down, the absolute worst thing I have ever seen happen to a horse. Of course the vet came right away and put her down. But I can't help but think that all of it could have been prevented if the owner had just followed proper loading procedure, and had the butt bar up before leaving the horse's head.

[Kaleigh007]

WOW!!! What a horrible story...common sense tells you to not tie their heads without the butt bar up...but I guess there are a bunch of people who were not blessed with much of that!

[Lady Counselor]

You should always have some form of restraint at the rear of the horse for exactly the reasons said here.
That being said, there have been people that have had horses try to jam themselves back under the butt bars with disatrous results. One horse I knew personally ended up chipping the vertabrea on his spine and was out of commision for almost two years. Big $$ vet bills on that one.
There really is no foolproof method with horses.
I opted to do the padded straps in my trailer. A lot of commercial haulers will use these or padded chains. There are a couple of reasons why.
First, if the horse tries to fly back off the trailer, and gets under a strap, they have a better chance of not tearing up their back as badly as they would a steel bar.
Second, if you have to do a panic stop, the strap molds to the chest and the point of impact is spread out a bit.
Third, if you ever have a horse get hung up on top of one, you can cut it with a knife and free him yourself. If that happens with a bar, you have a big problem on your hands.
I retrofitted my little 2 horse bumper pull with padded straps. I also left the bars in back along with the straps. When trailering one horse, the strap goes behind the horse, the bar behind the empty stall. This stabilizes the partial divider.
Oh, one other thing I started doing years ago was to use the safety breakaway trailer ties. They have the velcro on them. Takes a lot to pop them, but when they do, you have a velcro grab handle on the halter to help get ahold of them again. And one last related word of caution that should be a no brainer but isn't: never ever use rope halters when trailering. Even if you ship untied, they can get hung up on things in the trailer, and then you can have a really big problem really fast. Leather is best, if using nylon, make sure you have a breakaway one on.

[Home Again Farm]

I knew a woman who died under a ramp when a horse backed out over her. :mad: Butt bars are essential. :yes:

Fairview, this sounds like someone who was once recommended to me. Can you PM me the name?

[Arcadien]

This is timely, I just had a chat with someone about this last weekend. She was complaining about her Arab's lack of progress on her trailer loading schooling sessions. She just went to a Clinton Anderson clinic and had the special halter, carrot stick an' all. (I know, I know, but she is just a casual trail rider, and a perfect victim for the latest fad stuff, and was enjoying it so much - I figure she might as well have her fun chasing him around with that expensive glorified lunge whip, lol)

Anyway, as she was describing her difficulties, I came to realize she was getting him to walk on the trailer okay now, but was upset that he wouldn't stand tied there - stand tied with no butt bar, ramp down, while she moved away and or tried to spook him with her fancy dancy whip (I guess to emphasize he was supposed to stand tied there no matter what?)

He had broken several halters flying backwards, then when tied with the fancy rope knotted halter, panicked & whacked his head open on the roof. She was all po'd with him and actually (this happens very rarely) asked me for advice. I said put him on the trailer, have your helper put the butt bar up, then the ramp, and *then* tie him. Her mouth just dropped open "but then he won't learn to stand tied with no butt bar!"

Argh. It took me awhile and gads of patience but finally I convinced her ( I think) that it wasn't a good idea to have him stand tied with no butt bar anyway, and the fact that he had flown back & broken things so many times already made it especially unlikely to happen.

So hopefully helped simplify this little Arab's life a little, (he's in no real danger, in fact he's fat & spoiled, just has to tolerate a bunch of interesting "games" in the round pen, once a week or so, which sometimes he plays, and other times he doesn't depending on how much he decides to humor his kind but clueless owner - other horses have it much worse!)

but I have to wonder, do these NA clinicians really preach having the horse stand tied on a straight load trailer with no butt bar? Some of their stuff seems to me silly but interesting, but that - if true - seems just plain silly.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Can you PM me the name?

I would be happy to! Done!

My private messages are getting pretty full, but for the record, my email is fairviewhorsectr@aol.com :winkgrin:

[katarine]

This is timely, I just had a chat with someone about this last weekend. She was complaining about her Arab's lack of progress on her trailer loading schooling sessions. She just went to a Clinton Anderson clinic and had the special halter, carrot stick an' all. (I know, I know, but she is just a casual trail rider, and a perfect victim for the latest fad stuff, and was enjoying it so much - I figure she might as well have her fun chasing him around with that expensive glorified lunge whip, lol)

Anyway, as she was describing her difficulties, I came to realize she was getting him to walk on the trailer okay now, but was upset that he wouldn't stand tied there - stand tied with no butt bar, ramp down, while she moved away and or tried to spook him with her fancy dancy whip (I guess to emphasize he was supposed to stand tied there no matter what?)

but I have to wonder, do these NA clinicians really preach having the horse stand tied on a straight load trailer with no butt bar? Some of their stuff seems to me silly but interesting, but that - if true - seems just plain silly.


I don't believe any of them advocate trying to booger one once they are loaded and tied, no. I believe she's doing that of her own accord and I think that's silly and dangerous, the horse has too many ways to hurt himself and no way to turn and look and take care of himself.

But... do they expect that a horse trained to tie, should tie, period? Then that answer is yes. I am thinking of us loading 7-8 horses to go to a trail head in a stock trailer. They are led on one at a time, tied in rope halters and leads, and the next one gathered and led on. The horses already on the trailer are expected to stand and wait.

For a straight load, 2H trailer or the rearmost horses on a 4H straight load, or the back stall in a slant, then yes, the butt bar ought to be up before they are tied, as there's only one step back and down for most horses (babies would have more room behind them)...once they've stepped back and down, if they are tied, they may panic at the weird situation they are in, and set back. But in my stock trailer example above- tied is tied. So the NH way of You Will Stand Tied, applies.

[PhoenixFarm]

I'm wondering if this is the same outfit that delivered a horse to me last year.

On the plus side the horse arrived in great shape, fat, shiny, groomed, and well handled.

On the negative side, the guy came roaring in to my property so fast that we had to scream "stop" at the tops of our lungs so that he didn't rip down our entrance and part of our fenceline with his bumper, then he leapt out of the truck and screamed curse words at my husband claiming we had lied to him about the trailer accessability of the property, as he was now "stuck 'till forever". Um, our personal trailer was twelve feet longer than his, and we'd had horses delivered on semis on multiple occaisions without so much as a blade of grass being crushed. We really don't have that small/challenging of a driveway. The guy told us to eff-off, and went storming off in a snit, and shut himself in the truck while his wife unloaded the horse, turned over the paperwork, etc.

There had also been a miscommunication about how long the horse would be a lay up facility between his point of origin and my place. I thought it was supposed to be a week to ten days. It turned in to a month. Now, as I say, he obviously got great care at the lay up--he looked fantastic, and was happy, calm, and loaded an unloaded like a dream. But it was, um, stressful not being able to know exactly where he was.

On the other hand, also in the interest of fairness, these people were HALF of the cost of my normal go-to shipper, Equine Express. (Love them!) So you do get what you pay for, and for that particular horse, the funds for something pricier were not available.

Ultimately no harm was done, and my horse arrived safe and sound, but dealing with the husband definately left a bad taste in my mouth, and uneager to do any sort of business with them again.

[ESG]

When he threw the fit and said he should just leave, I would have agreed with him. :yes:

This. :yes:

And I bet if you'd have pushed the issue just a wee bit more, the family who bought your babies would have agreed with you and found someone more suitable,..........not to mention, more competent. Sounds like your horses' new owners need some guidance. Just me, but I'd have done my damnedest to provide it.

[shadytrake]

Let me say, I use the butt bar. I also want to point out, by not using a butt bar, and closing a ramp door, if the horse starts to come out and pushes on the ramp, you could get caught and trip or fall, and that ramp could come down on you. So, even if you don't think about the horses safety, think about your own.

I had a really scary experience with this too. My guy is not a great loader so you MUST put the butt bar up as soon as he is on a straight load. A friend was helping me load and I mistakenly thought she knew to put the bar up. Instead she lifted the ramp. Needless to say I was trying to stay calm while grabbing the butt bar to try to pin it with the ramp up. All the while, my guy was trying to scoot back against the ramp I WAS HOLDING. Finally, I knew I couldn't get it and I knew it was going to be ugly so I calmly told her to get away from the trailer and that I was just going to let go of the ramp and run.

I am SO LUCKY. My guy ripped his halter coming out slammed down the ramp and went flying all over the farm. If I had not let go, that ramp could have killed me or my friend or injured my guy. Now if anyone helps me load, I always show them the butt bar and make sure they know to get it up QUICK.

I have never been so scared in my life.

[Cindyg]

I will admit that the rattletrap trailer I had back in the 70s -- when I was blessed with the guardian angel who watches over the young and the stupid, and when I was blessed with a SAINT of a horse -- that trailer had no butt bar.

Fast forward to now: I cannot even imagine!

I can't think of any reason to do that. It seems utterly unsafe to me in ten different ways.

I can think of an argument for a better designed butt bar (that you could get off if a horse goes under it in an accident); but I can't think of any argument for planning to haul without it.

Somebody mentioned a trainer who teaches his clients not to use one. Why?!

[Fairview Horse Center]

This. :yes:

And I bet if you'd have pushed the issue just a wee bit more, the family who bought your babies would have agreed with you and found someone more suitable,..........not to mention, more competent. Sounds like your horses' new owners need some guidance. Just me, but I'd have done my damnedest to provide it.

Not this family, and not shipping with this hauler on that day was just not possible for them. This move has been planned for 2 years, and kept being put off. Their house sold a year ago, moved into a rental, and moved out of the rental house that morning. They have been totally determined that the horses could NOT ship without them driving along. The family rented an RV, flew in family members to help drive. and shipped their vehicles commercially at the last minute for this.

I have spent MANY hours over the past 4 or 5 years trying to educate them.

At the moment, their focus needs to be on their family's health issue, and I did the best I could before they left, then sent a long email as soon as they pulled out.

[MHM]

Fairview, have you heard from them? Did they arrive at their destination in one piece? Hope so!

[Fairview Horse Center]

I know they made it to their first stop, but have not heard anything since. I am hoping they reach their new home today, at least I believe that was the plan.