What do you think of this feed label

[okggo]

I'm tired of playing mad scientist and mixing feeds, and searching for a decent complete feed. This one is made by our local coop and seems to be top notch compared to the pricier known brands. Would like your thoughts...

Protein 13%
Fat 5.5%
Fiber 26%
Calcium 1.1-1.5%
Phos .65%
Magnesium .65%
Copper 80 PPM
Selenium 1.3 PPM
Zinc 250 PPM
Vit A 6000 IU/lb
Vit D 1000 IU/lb
Vit E 200 IU/lb

It has a lot more vit/min but those are the only that have exact amounts listed. Here are the ingredients:

Soyhulls (binder), Shredded Beet Pulp, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Flaxseed, Linseed Meal, Wheat Middlings, Soybean Oil, Salt, Biotin, Yeast Culture, Mococalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Magnesium Oxide, L-Lysine, Methionine, Niacin, Riboflavin, Zinc Methionine, Manganese Methionine complex, copper lysine complex, cobalt, Iron Oxide, Copper sulfate, zinc oxide, zinc sulfate, manganese sulfate, thiamine, ferrous sulfate, calcium iodate, manganous oxide, cobalt carbonate, sodium selenite, orange-anise flavor, mtb-100, vit A, D3, E supplement

I'm not a big soy fan, but from my understanding the hulls don't cause a problem like the meal, correct (aka just a binder material)? My easy keepers tend to look like beached whales on soy products. What do you think?

Would you still supplement with a vit/min product on top of it?

[okggo]

Bumping b/c I know someone on here must have an opinion :D

[tbtrailrider]

Sounds like good feed to me. I have fed soy hulls as a hay stretcher before with no problems. At least it's not ground peanut hulls. I like that there is not a lot of corn in it...beet pulp is good. I like that it has yeast culture in it as well.
I would feed it.

[HoofHeartSoul]

yes the soybean oil and hulls do NOT cause a hormonal effect on the system because they do not contain the isoflavones.

but i did hear they are heavily processed and may contain chemicals from the process of removing the oil and hebacides and pesticides



however i would much rather have the hulls than the meal. IMHO

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=okggo;4369405]I'm tired of playing mad scientist and mixing feeds, and searching for a decent complete feed. This one is made by our local coop and seems to be top notch compared to the pricier known brands. Would like your thoughts...


from what you posted is it a complete or senior feed ??

also I have no problems with mom and pop feed mills provided you can get their compliance reports from the state easily...

one nearby has been cited oh about, 15 times for feeds not containing that they were supposed to or having "extras";) in it or not being the protein level it was supposed to be and so on...just be careful

best

[pintopiaffe]

It's really quite closer to a forage extender :Ior complete feed.

The alfalfa meal is the primary protein source.. though flax is a decent protein. What is the Linseed meal? I thought flax IS linseed?? :confused:

I have wondered about soy hulls myself. Never needed to try (yet) but the 'falf would be my issue (unfortunately.) As long as you don't have anyone who is intolerant of alfalfa, I LOVE the looks of it. I would try it!

[Beano]

I don't like the wheat midds. Soy hulls are another extender and can be useful if you dont have hay. Not much vitamins and minerals in this product. Keep looking, but don't add a supplement. Please! Get some beet pulp and a good vitamin/mineral mix (Horse Sense) which doesn't have any sugar. The A in this product is 50,000 IU which helps tremendously with allergies. It is balanced with the right minerals. Don't mess with your horses health.

[TKR]

Cheaper feeds (made by the local mills) + high fiber content = filler. So, then you are feeding alot more to get any nutrients and clogging up a system not designed to digest those amounts. PASS!
PennyG

[okggo]

TKR, Beano (PS Beano, I've fed HS, did nothing for my guys, sorry - at least not any different then other feeds, and a lot more expensive) -

Hmm, really? I'm comparing this to the "top" feed companies and it actually has higher nutrient levels.

It's not a senior feed, it's a low starch formula developed by a veterinarian for the feed company. It's not really a ma and pa type coop, it's like a Southern States Coop - but "local."

For example -
Here is an ADM product (Senior feed)
Has 5000 IU/lb Vit A, 250 Vit E, 150 Zinc, .6 Selenium, 30 ppm copper, etc. all lower then this feed.

Triple Crown low starch - has the same or less depending on the nutrient - and similar but imho worse ingredients #1 is wheat middlings and soybean hulls with TC.

So I'm not sure I'm seeing why it is "filler" and low nutrient. Can you explain more? Not disagreeing, just would like to hear why.

PP - linseed meal is basically just ground flaxseed.

[Waterwitch]

What is the recommended feeding level for this feed? I agree that starting with the soybean hulls as the first ingredient probably means that this is not a very nutrient dense feed. The mineral profile supports that. I think you are likely to be feeding a fair amount of this feed to get enough protein and minerals in.

For comparisons sake, here is the feed tag on the Progressive's ProAdd Ultimate that I feed my herd. I too had issues with the amount of bean meal in the Grass Balancer but the fatties are doing much better on this, which I'm attributing to diversification of the protein source (ie less bean meal). Right now my weanling is eating 1 pound of Ultimate per day:

Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein min 55%
Lysine min 4.6%
Crude Fat min 3.5%
Crude Fiber min 2%
Calcium min 5.5% max 6.5%
Phosphorus min 2.5%
Copper min 380 ppm
Selenium min 3 ppm
Zinc min 870 ppm
Vit A min 44,000 IU/lb
Vit D min 4,400 IU/lb
Vit E min 700 IU/lb

Ingredients:
Soy Protein Isolate, Soybean Meal, Potato Protein, Flaxseed, Whey Protein Concentrate, Dried Whey, Egg Product, Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, L-Lysine, DL-Methionine, L-Threonine, L-Tryptophan, Yeast Culture, Soybean Oil, Magnesium Oxide, Potassium Chloride, Copper Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Calcium Iodate, Cobalt Carbonate, Copper Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Sodium Selenite, Selenium Yeast, Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Niacin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Choline Chloride, d-Biotin, Ascorbic Acid, Dried Shizolsaccharomyces pombe Fermentation Product, Dried Aspergillus niger Fermentation Product, Natural Flavors Added

[okggo]

What is the recommended feeding level for this feed? I agree that starting with the soybean hulls as the first ingredient probably means that this is not a very nutrient dense feed. The mineral profile supports that. I think you are likely to be feeding a fair amount of this feed to get enough protein and minerals in.

For comparisons sake, here is the feed tag on the Progressive's ProAdd Ultimate that I feed my herd. I too had issues with the amount of bean meal in the Grass Balancer but the fatties are doing much better on this, which I'm attributing to diversification of the protein source (ie less bean meal). Right now my weanling is eating 1 pound of Ultimate per day:

Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein min 55%
Lysine min 4.6%
Crude Fat min 3.5%
Crude Fiber min 2%
Calcium min 5.5% max 6.5%
Phosphorus min 2.5%
Copper min 380 ppm
Selenium min 3 ppm
Zinc min 870 ppm
Vit A min 44,000 IU/lb
Vit D min 4,400 IU/lb
Vit E min 700 IU/lb

Ingredients:
Soy Protein Isolate, Soybean Meal, Potato Protein, Flaxseed, Whey Protein Concentrate, Dried Whey, Egg Product, Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, L-Lysine, DL-Methionine, L-Threonine, L-Tryptophan, Yeast Culture, Soybean Oil, Magnesium Oxide, Potassium Chloride, Copper Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Calcium Iodate, Cobalt Carbonate, Copper Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Sodium Selenite, Selenium Yeast, Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Niacin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Choline Chloride, d-Biotin, Ascorbic Acid, Dried Shizolsaccharomyces pombe Fermentation Product, Dried Aspergillus niger Fermentation Product, Natural Flavors Added


.5 lbs per 100 lbs is the feeding directions. We don't have a Prog Nutr dealer local, I wonder if there is a similar product? I was comparing the Triple Crown with this b/c we can also get TC locally. TC low starch is less nutrient dense then this feed. Hmm. I like the low starch type feeds b/c the others are so grain and molasses dense.

Edited to add - yours is a RB, right? This is supposed to be a complete feed, or more like a hay replacer. I have hard keepers that would not sustain weight on just a RB, so I was having to mix RB/and or vit/min with BP, Alfalfa pellets, barley, etc. I dont' mind mixing a RB with this feed (or a similar product), I'm just looking for something to add calories safely (and easy for me). Right now they are getting a vit/min suppl with it, but I'm not sold on it by any means.

[Waterwitch]

I started out home mixing for the same reason you mention. Couldn't find anything without grain or molasses. Then ration balancers came along and I started using those. But as you are finding out, there aren't many choices if your horses are soy sensitive. I wonder how much it would cost to have your feed mill put together a custom alfalfa based ration for you based on what you've been mixing at home?

[Oldenburg Mom]

Actually, this is very interesting. Here's the feed tag of my ration balancer:

Guaranteed Analysis:
Moisture less than 2%
Crude Protein, min. 9%
Digestible Protein 8%
Fat, min. 11%
Fiber, max. 8%
Calcium, max. 5.5%
Calcium, min. 4.5%
Phosphorus, min. 2.4%
Copper, min. 400 ppm
Iodine 10 ppm
Selenium, min. 3.0 ppm
Zinc, min. 1600 ppm
Vitamin A 55,000 IU/LB
Vitamin C as Ascorbic Acid, min. 900 mg/LB
Vitamin D3, min. 7500 IU/LB
Vitamin E, min. 500 IU/LB
INGREDIENTS: Roasted Oats, Roasted Corn, Dicalcium Phosphate, Alfalfa Crumbles, Dehydrated Molasses, Soybean Oil, Calcium Carbonate, Saccharomyces cerevisiae Yeast Culture (dehydrated) Diamond V “XP” (Additional source of amino acids: Lysine, Cystine, Tryptophan, Threonine, Isoleucine, Leucine, Phenylalanine, Arginine, Histidine, Valine), Vitamin - Mineral Premix (includes: Zinc Sulfate, Potasium Chloride, Ascorbic Acid, Copper Sulfate, dl-alpha-tocopheryl Acetate, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Magnesium Oxide, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, Folic Acid Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Acetate in Gelatin, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, D-Activated Animal Sterol [source of Vitamin D-3], Cobalt Sulfate, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine HCI), Roasted Soybeans, Lysine, Salt.

The nice thing for me is all the vitamins/minerals come from the US or Europe. None from China. Plus, I guess I like that there are no middlings or hulls or anything like that. Plus, the moisture is less than 2%, e.g., there's very little water in this.

[TKR]

I've found (and been told by nutritionists) that a feed with alot of fiber (over 10%) usually translates to a catch-all for filler. You will have to feed alot more of such in order to get the nutritional balance and that puts too much pressure on a digestive system not designed for it. Looking at the above labels last listed you will notice a much lower fiber content.
PennyG

[okggo]

OM - that is HS right? I tried that for several months, and while I didn't dislike the product, I was feeding just as much stuff with it to maintain weight on my hard keepers as I was before, and at 2 to 3 times more cost. I just could not afford to keep feeding that product. It's also pretty low protein.

[okggo]

I've found (and been told by nutritionists) that a feed with alot of fiber (over 10%) usually translates to a catch-all for filler. You will have to feed alot more of such in order to get the nutritional balance and that puts too much pressure on a digestive system not designed for it. Looking at the above labels last listed you will notice a much lower fiber content.
PennyG

Yeah, but that is a ration balancer, not a feed. I need something in addition to the RB for weight. Would the combination of the RB and this feed be a decent way to go?

[Oldenburg Mom]

OM - that is HS right?

Yup. That's the A product.

Price: yup, I've heard people talk about the price before...and I just can't figure out why. I've got 5 horses on the stuff and one of them is a hard keeper—I've got to keep her on supplemental grain (barley and oats) all year around. My feed bill is ... let's see 34*5 plus 15*3 equals, ... rounded say, $250 per month for all of them? I don't know, I think that's kinda inexpensive.

Now, in the winter, that will go up, because they ALL have to have supplemented grain as there's no grass.

By the way, the girl that needs the extra grain? She's a 17 hand thoroughbred cross.

As far as the protein issue goes ... well... I'm very happy with this product. I don't want to get into a big argument ... which has happened in the past.

[okggo]

Yup. That's the A product.

Price: yup, I've heard people talk about the price before...and I just can't figure out why. I've got 5 horses on the stuff and one of them is a hard keeper—I've got to keep her on supplemental grain (barley and oats) all year around. My feed bill is ... let's see 34*5 plus 15*3 equals, ... rounded say, $250 per month for all of them? I don't know, I think that's kinda inexpensive.

Now, in the winter, that will go up, because they ALL have to have supplemented grain as there's no grass.

By the way, the girl that needs the extra grain? She's a 17 hand thoroughbred cross.

As far as the protein issue goes ... well... I'm very happy with this product. I don't want to get into a big argument ... which has happened in the past.

I actually don't disagree with you on the product, I also think it is a good feed, that is why I stuck with it as long as I did.

Re expense, I was feeding the HS, as well as roasted barley, oats, and srb (about 11 #s total per day) plus free choice hay, and not seeing any gain. I've been told that you shouldn't feed more than 4 pounds of oats/barley per day or risk acid upset in the stomach. As it was an oat based RB, I was feeding close to 14# of straight "grain" and corn per day. VERY expensive with a $50 bag of RB and 20-30$ bag of "grain" - bp was even more costly. I wish I had your luck, I really do, but I was feeding a ton of it trying to get some weight on my TBs, and getting nowhere but broke. The easy keepers and middle keepers looked GREAT on it!!

[TKR]

To add weight, you need to add fat. I like Ultium (Purina) better than anything else I've tried. I use it with Senior on some older ones that need help. You don't have to use alot and it is expensive, but what you use gets the results and it is very digestable -- all good nutrients. The Senior has plenty of forage type ingredients that are also highly digestable.
PennyG

[Melyni]

Otherwise it looks fine, as long as it is reasonably priced and well made (clean no mold) it should do fine.

It wouldn't do for a horse in hard or fast work, but how many horses are in hard or fast work these days!
MW

[Oldenburg Mom]

VERY expensive with a $50 bag of RB and 20-30$ bag of "grain" - !

A bag of A for the adults is 34.45, and has been for a very long time. I think wen I started feeding it it was $29, and that was 3-years ago. Grain, e.g., roasted barley, roasted oats, is 15.88 per bag, that that went up about three weeks ago from 15.42.

Anyway, not trying to shove anything down anyone's throat, but I just wanted to be accurate. One bag of A for lone horse last 25 days.

[caballus]

Lisa St. John might have some answers for you. You can discuss with her here:

http://www.horsecourses.net/2009/TEL...structions.htm

Lisa's Nutrition Therapy Program is specifically tailored to each individual horse. She does not use a general recipe or a general approach, but creates a custom-developed methodology to meet each horse's necessary nutrition requirements. She's been doing this for over 16 years.

Her program consists of fresh fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds and a unique, specifically tailored organic herbal blend. An ever-changing variety of natural foods and herbs depending on each horse's progression are recommended and provided for Lisa’s clients, and are specifically designed for each individual horse to achieve these high standards of health and performance.

[okggo]

A bag of A for the adults is 34.45, and has been for a very long time. I think wen I started feeding it it was $29, and that was 3-years ago. Grain, e.g., roasted barley, roasted oats, is 15.88 per bag, that that went up about three weeks ago from 15.42.

Anyway, not trying to shove anything down anyone's throat, but I just wanted to be accurate. One bag of A for lone horse last 25 days.

Don't forget that the suppliers tack on their own fees. Mine was up there, although I can't remember the exact. Barley at my feed store is $6 a bag. Oats are around the same. Beet pulp is around $14.