Feeding the fat EPSM (suspected) horse

[ljc]

I have a horse who has every single symptom of EPSM. He's half TB/half Percheron, as well. Didn't go very far in the testing - just did blood work, which came back negative. The EPSM diet seems to be a good one for most horses anyway, so I figure it can't hurt to put him on it. But he's already on basically an EPSM diet, with the exception of no added fat. I've been trying to help him lose weight so I've cut his hay back a bit. He now gets:

8 pounds of grass hay in am and pm
Maybe two giant handfuls of alfalfa hay in evening as a treat
3/4 cup of alfalfa pellets mixed with handful of soaked BP w/out molasses
Quiessence
Fastrack
Hoof supplement
He gets turned out once a week for one hour into a grass paddock
He gets no treats w/sugar. He gets the Hilton Herbal treats or alfalfa pellets

He's turned out in a field for eight hours a day. Nothing to eat in it right now (summer in Southern CA).

He's also been rehabbing for various soft tissue injuries so he's basically doing nothing. For two years (but that's another thread).

He's been on the above diet since April. His theoetical EPSM symptoms haven't improved. Therefore, I was thinking it's time to try adding more fat to his diet.

But, how does one add fat to the diet of an already chubby horse? It's not like I can swap fat for grain - he doesn't get any. Do I cut back on his hay even further?

I'm totally confused here.

[JoZ]

Other folks might be able to give you actual diet suggestions. But I can tell you what I found -- adding fat to my fat mare's diet SLIMMED HER DOWN.

Here's the longer version -- I have two draft cross mares. One had quite a few of the EPSM symptoms; the other did not. But in the spirit of "what's the harm?" I put both of them on the EPSM diet, including the recommended amount of fat, two winters ago. The one without the symptoms became porky (so of course I discontinued the fat for her). The one WITH the symptoms not only showed improvement in coordination and hind end flexibility, she also "tucked up", got a better-looking top line, and lost her cresty-ness.

I guess it makes sense, in an odd sort of way. Everything BUT fat is being stored because it can't be digested properly. Or something like that. All I know is what I saw!

[equineartworks]

We are trying Paco right now on a EPSM diet. He looks so good. He is gaining weight before our eyes, he's happier and moving much better.

I hope it works for you!!!!

[GilbertsCreeksideAcres]

My response in anecdotal too, but my horse was in the same situation as yours, showing sign of EPSM but the blood tested negative. She's normally chubby, too, as a half-draft, but adding oil did not increase her weight.

Just, for what it's worth...

[Katy Watts]

What is the NSC content of your hay? It matters with PSSM, too. Get it tested and get it below 11% WSC +starch dry matter basis.

[2horseowner]

My epsm horse is on 5oz dose of Cool Calories, 3000 iu vit E (natural), Smartpak Stamina, and Tie Free. He is also on Nutrena Safechoice. I went to the Cool Calories because I board and wanted to make it easier for the owner to use. I also have this horse on Legend every 3 months and Adequan monthly. He is a large horse who has really benefitted from this diet. Good luck, it takes fine tuning to find out what works. Also, horse is out all day w/ good grass, and gets some alfalfa/orchard hay at night.

[candico]

We have three EPSM horses and they all seem to have lost some weight on the "diet" whereas prior to at least two of them tended to be overweight. Maybe it works a little like the Atkins diet... FWIW

[SaddleFitterVA]

When we were narrowing down "shivers" to EPSM or PSSM on my mare during a flareup, my vet had me put her on a decreasing dose of Thyro-L to drop the fatty deposits.

The thyro-l dose was:
-4 scoops 1x a day for 3 weeks
-3 scoops 1x a day for 3 weeks
-2 scoops 1x a day for 3 weeks
-1 scoop 1x a day for 3 weeks.

I changed her to a low starch feed at the same time. There was a very pleasant side-effect to the Thyro-L. Her muscle issues were GONE. No more drugging for the farrier, no issues with rock hard thighs, nothing. Then, a couple of weeks after the thyro-l stopped, she started getting cranky, less through, and finally had another, full blown episode. Needed drugs to make her comfortable for the farrier (banamine and ace was the combo that worked well) again.

I put her back on thryo-l, and currently leave her on 1.5-2 scoops a day. All her fatty deposits are gone too. She is back in full work (4-5 rides a week), not cranky and again, is fine for the farrier. She also wears a muzzle and gets her hay soaked. Nobody knows why this works, but it does work for her. It is affordable for me and keeps her happy, comfortable and working, which is good for these horses.

My mare's flareups, which I call "metabolic episodes" are her inner thighs get rock hard and tie up, but when I did test her enzymes, they were not elevated, so not sure if it is true rhabdomyolisis (sp).

I also have an older pony who is IR and has foundered and she ALSO does better on just Thyro-L. we tried pergolide for her and it did not help like the thryoid supplement did. In fact this mare, she'll have laminitis about 5 days off the Thyro-L. She is currently living w/ another family, but they keep her muzzled and on her thryoid meds.

[ljc]

When we were narrowing down "shivers" to EPSM or PSSM on my mare during a flareup, my vet had me put her on a decreasing dose of Thyro-L to drop the fatty deposits.

The thyro-l dose was:
-4 scoops 1x a day for 3 weeks
-3 scoops 1x a day for 3 weeks
-2 scoops 1x a day for 3 weeks
-1 scoop 1x a day for 3 weeks.

I changed her to a low starch feed at the same time. There was a very pleasant side-effect to the Thyro-L. Her muscle issues were GONE. No more drugging for the farrier, no issues with rock hard thighs, nothing. Then, a couple of weeks after the thyro-l stopped, she started getting cranky, less through, and finally had another, full blown episode. Needed drugs to make her comfortable for the farrier (banamine and ace was the combo that worked well) again.

I put her back on thryo-l, and currently leave her on 1.5-2 scoops a day. All her fatty deposits are gone too. She is back in full work (4-5 rides a week), not cranky and again, is fine for the farrier. She also wears a muzzle and gets her hay soaked. Nobody knows why this works, but it does work for her. It is affordable for me and keeps her happy, comfortable and working, which is good for these horses.

My mare's flareups, which I call "metabolic episodes" are her inner thighs get rock hard and tie up, but when I did test her enzymes, they were not elevated, so not sure if it is true rhabdomyolisis (sp).

I also have an older pony who is IR and has foundered and she ALSO does better on just Thyro-L. we tried pergolide for her and it did not help like the thryoid supplement did. In fact this mare, she'll have laminitis about 5 days off the Thyro-L. She is currently living w/ another family, but they keep her muzzled and on her thryoid meds.

For whatever reason, Thyro-L and this horse do not get along. At one point it looked like he was IR and the vet suggested putting him on it to help him lose weight. I tried four separate times and in each instance he went completely 100 percent insane. He's a semi-wacko horse anyway and increasing his metabolism was a huge mistake. I'm certainly not anti thyro-L; I have a senior horse who's been on it for years.

Still no answer to my one question - with adding fat to his diet, do I reduce what he's already getting or just add the fat?

Thanks for the tips and ideas.

[SaddleFitterVA]

My vet wanted me to add a small amount of fish oil, fat high in Omega 3 & 6 fatty acids.

I bought a reasonably priced fish oil from one of the catalogs, but it was butterscotch flavored. It smelled foul, and I finally gave up feeding it. The mare hated it, I hated it, we all hated it!

[3Spots]

Wow, two of my favorite people in the same thread! Hi Mel, hi Liz!

Interesting on the Thyro-L. I will pass that on to someone at my barn. Hadn't heard of it before.

Did you try high Mg doses? The Horse Journal had an article about reducing crestiness when Mg was up at it's normal levels (I think they need so much that no multi-vite provides enough).

jan

[Fox Wood Farm]

If you need to add more fat to his diet, and if he then starts gaining, the only thing to do is increase exercise. EPSM horses should get exercise daily anyway, if at all possible and 24/7 turnout. Two things a lot of people have found to be very helpful to EPSM horses are Acetyl-L-Carnitine (ALCar) and pretty high levels of Magnesium (Mg). I would look at dropping the Quiessence -if I remember correctly, it contains supplemental Chromium (Cr) which is not good for EPSM horses. (It IS good for IR horses.)

You might also consider additional testing to determine if this guy really has EPSM or perhaps some other metabolic condition. You said that blood tests came back negative... What blood test was done? DNA testing for the GYS-1 gene mutation? Or a post exercise test to check for muscle enzymes?

[ljc]

If you need to add more fat to his diet, and if he then starts gaining, the only thing to do is increase exercise. EPSM horses should get exercise daily anyway, if at all possible and 24/7 turnout. Two things a lot of people have found to be very helpful to EPSM horses are Acetyl-L-Carnitine (ALCar) and pretty high levels of Magnesium (Mg). I would look at dropping the Quiessence -if I remember correctly, it contains supplemental Chromium (Cr) which is not good for EPSM horses. (It IS good for IR horses.)

You might also consider additional testing to determine if this guy really has EPSM or perhaps some other metabolic condition. You said that blood tests came back negative... What blood test was done? DNA testing for the GYS-1 gene mutation? Or a post exercise test to check for muscle enzymes?


Hard to increase exercise on this guy since he's still rehabbing from soft tissue injuries. But the above post really has me thinking - I started him on quiessence back in April, about the time the whole EPSM/IR diagnosis debate began. The quiessence definitely helped in calming down Mr. Wacko but did nothing for helping with his chubby look. And his soundness issues have gotten worse. I've thought it was the soft tissue problems hanging around; now I'm wondering if the chromium might have been exacerbating the EPSM issues. Now I'm thinking I should find a different magnesium supplement.

As always, this board gives me lots to think about. In kind of a two steps forward, one step backwards way.

[draftgirl01]

My mare was suspected to have EPSM after she tyed up from surgery. We sent blood to the Univ of Minn and it came back negative. We could do the muscle biopsy but decided to modify her already EPSM diet even more.

I consulted Dr. Beth Valentine again and she is a wealth of information!! You might want to check out the Rural Heritage site for more information on EPSM.

My mare gets 1 qt beet pulp AM and PM and cocosoya oil and a vit/mineral supplement, she has been pulled off grain completely.

[Equa]

Hey Saddlefitter VA, can you explain the tight thigh muscles? I have a wb gelding who I have moved onto a PSSM diet (with excellent results already). He became abnormally touchy in his stifle/abs area - ie. I could not softly lay my hand on him here! Never got close enough to feel his inner thighs! He is not at all lame or unsound, and has benefiited also by being Equissaged prior to work, and a long warmup. He is on 24/7 turnout in a big grassy paddock, where he moves a lot!

[murphyluv]

Just as an FYI with the Thryo-L- and maybe this could make up an entirely different thread, but I was told recently by a vet that Thryo-L will eventually shut down thyroid function in the horse when he's been on it long term. How long I don't know, and I don't know if there could be a blood test to determine if the horse really NEEDS thryo-l. Not saying that any of the horses mentioned on this thread did not need, but I have seen so many horses put on it just b/c they're fat, and it either doesn't do anything or makes it worse.
I wonder if Accupuncture could be beneficial for EPSM horses- ???
Anyways, I would talk to the vet that sees the horse-OP. What are his/her suggestions for adding fat?
Also, there are other calming supplements that are just Magnesium. Platinum Performance also carries just a magnesium supplement. Mare Magic is also mostly magnesium in the form of rasberry leaves.
When I had an EPSM horse the vet told us to put him on alf cubes and/or beet pulp, corn oil (I did canola oil instead). I also added a small amount of flax for some good omega 3's.
My easy keeper gets hemp oil (not epsm though) and has not gained weight on it. If anything, he's lost weight.