My mare went down on a trail... bone fragmentation in c7

[Dressage Art]

5 Flying Tempi changes just before Zena fell down to her nees on the trail:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taA27l-0eKQ

Zena knuckling forward at UC Dasic Vet Hospital after she fell down to her knees on the trail: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAmkReyfNLo

It's been lots of guessing & hoping for the several months already, but we still don't have a clear diagnosis. Vets say: "Zena is a very interesting case, we just don't see many horses who knuckle over so much so sudden" What we know for sure that she doesn’t have OCD, Wobbles, EPM, cancer, tumor, West Nile, Lime, bone lysis, or Rhino.

********* :( DAY OF THE INJURY SEPTEMBER 2009 :( *********

My beautiful chestnut mare Zena- The Worrier Princess (11 years old) fell down to her knees on the trail today. Her hind legs just folded forward at her fetlocks, so she ended up standing on the front of her fetlocks, and she went down to her knees, scrambling, confused, in pain. I managed to jump off safely. She stood back up, hopping with right hind in the air. I thought she broke it, but no swelling, no heat, after 15 minutes she was putting her full weight on it, and was eager to go home FAST, but her hind hoofs would just fold over walking down the steep hill and she would be stepping on her fetlocks again = pain. It was horrible to watch. Friend helped us back to the barn (we were out together on trail). I was lucky that our vet was in the barn already, she looked at Zena and we'll be doing blood testing next week for EPM and other neurological possibilities...

She is not lame, she just knuckling forward on her fetlock in her right hind and sometimes in her left hind as well. She can walk just fine on the hard even ground, but on the deeper footing or a hill or making a 180 turn = her hind leg knuckles forward at the fetlock ... horrible...

I'm devastated... just yesterday she offered to me herself an absolute breathtaking extended trot that we were trying to develop for the last 2 years. That was the only thing that is keeping us from PSG level... She was such a good and happy girl, I decided to take her for an easy trail ride at a walk today... and then this...

I'm confused and feel so bad for my beautiful girl. I want her to be pain free, she deserves that yet I was told that I need to walk her to keep her muscles strong, but then she folds her hind legs and stumbles in pain... I can't do it... it's horrible to watch...

http://www.dressageart.com/Zena/zena_2008_cc6.jpg
http://www.dressageart.com/Zena/zena_2008_dk.jpg

Any warm wishes for Zena are deeply appreciated.

***** :( UPDATE: A WEEK @ UC DAVIS EQUINE HOSPITAL :( *****
We picked up Zena from UC Davis equine hospital today. She has no EPM, no Lime, no cancer, no West Nile, no Rhino, and her blood is normal with all the vitamins and such. She was VERY happy to go home, went right in to the trailer and then in the barn went right to her stall :) This is a much shortened version of vet's release papers: Saturday’s neurologic evaluation revealed repeated knuckling over the right hind and occasionally in the left hind which was noted mainly on the soft surface. The right hind fetlock joint had some swelling as did the tendon stealth, but didn’t appear to be painful on palpation. Zena appeared painful to palpation of the caudal cervical spine. Zena was knuckling over more severally on Sunday. Neurological examinations were performed daily and Zena didn’t progress at all after Sunday and may be had slightly improved during the last 5 days.
Remodeling along c5-6 facet joint and the c6-7 facet joint was noted with the facets being enlarged and irregular. There were also bone fragmentation noted on the right cranial aspect of the c7 facet. Zena is experiencing inflammation in her spinal cord. Her neurologic status may improve, stay the same, or deteriorate. Vet re-checks in 3 weeks.

Zena had her neck ingected with steroid in c6 and c7 from both sides.

She has a new cut on her right hind leg just above the hoof from knuckling over on the black top at UC Davis. Now it looks similar to the cut that she got 3 weeks ago on her left hind = may be she was knuckling over in her day pasture turn out and nobody saw it? She probably fractured her neck joint in July when she tripped over the cavalletti and fell to her knees (?)- she came up lame the next day on both her front legs, but with some rest and injections she was sound again. I started to re-hab her after green light vet re-check and after just 2 weeks of re-hab she fell down on her knees during the trail ride. May be her knee tumble on the trail probably re-injured already the fragmented/fractures neck joint (?)

Now, this neck joint called "facet" has a tiny rectangular fracture or fragmentation. This is in her c7 - the very last joint that hides in horse's shoulders. To me it didn't look like it was "floating bone fragments" like vet described at first.

X-RAYS: I marked in red where the fracture is, it's very hard to see since fragmentation is so small:
http://www.dressageart.com/Zena/xray_neck2.jpg

This is a larger X-RAY of the tiny fracture with out any markings:
http://www.dressageart.com/Zena/xray_neck.jpg

Zena also was sent home with the PowerPack for the spine worms - just in case the spine inflamation is from the spine worms. UC Davis still are not sure what exactly caused the whole thing, so they want Zena to get Power Pack just in case it's the worms in the spine that caused it. Zena was on daily dewormer prior to that.

For the bone fragmentation, the only other "proven" method will be a "basket" surgery, but since it's a c7 with Zena: she is 11 years old + it's the base neck joint that is hiding inside of the shoulders = the surgery has less chances, but lots of pain. I contacted Dr. Grant and he doesn't think that fracture might be not large enough for the surgery, since Zena has a full movement of her neck even now. So I decided not to do it, so I'm looking for alternatives.

*************************************************
Zena never was wobbly, she always knew where her legs were, but right hind would just knuckle over and at times left hind as well.

Posting videos of Zena at the evening of the day Zena fell to her knees on the trail ride and started to "knuckle" over on the front of her fetlocks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjs1Iqr3sBg

This is the video of Zena coming home from UC Davis Vet Hospital after spending 6 days there. Unfortunately, her knuckling over became worse and she needed an extra large wraps wrapped around her hind legs to prevent knuckling: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkAQlLMGKEU

Videos of standing for a farrier 2 weeks after the fall. She was a very good girl standing for farrier and did what she does all the time, just stands like a statue for farriers and vets. We decided to take the hind shoes off to give her a better feeling of the ground and promote sensory stimulation. But we did keep the front shoes so, she can put more weight on her front end to lighten her hind legs load.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FQSfuLI2Pw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oSPG1k4_iY

******* :) UPDATE: 1 MONTH VET RE-CHECK :) ********
"Normal central nervous system with no cranial nerve deficits.
No neck pain. Slightly reduced lateral neck flexion; Right side worse
than Left side. Normal dorsal to ventral excursion of the neck
and poll. No pain to palpation of epaxial muscles adjacent to
spine. There is marked atrophy of the Right side gluteal and
biceps femoris. Normal stance (not base wide or base narrow)
Normal placement of both front hooves (mare is very
compliant, so often she will keep her hoof where it was placed
out of good ground manners.) Normal placement of the LH
hoof, protective placement of the RH hoof. Good strength to
tail pull in both directions. Normal gait when walked in a
straight line while blindfolded. Normal gait walking up and
down moderately steep grade hill. She did startle and slip in the
wet sand walking up the hill, which produced a transient RH
lameness (reaggravation of the RH straight sesamoidean
ligament injury suffered when she knuckled over during her
neurologic episode last month.)

Assessment: Significant improvement in the neurologic
symptoms she was demonstrating at UC Davis.

PLAN: Re radiograph cervical vertebrae in 6 months. Continued stall/paddock rest with standing wraps to
help control stocking up edema in the hind limbs. Approved
exercises in the TTouch methodology are perfect. Avoid
concussion activities (trotting) or anything that could aggravate
the vertebral body fracture of C7 just above the Right
transverse process. Continue on 1/2 to 1/4 Previcox daily for
inflammation control."

*********************
Videos of Zena's neurological veterinarian exam 1 month after the fall.

Zena did great: vet examining Zena's hind leg neurological placement. Horse needs to replace the unnaturally placed legs to a normal position. If horse is not replacing her legs back to normal position, that shows neurological issue. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2KwXzXZRaE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQNhSThjqIA

Zena did great: a neurological exam of walking up and down the hill as well as turning both ways at walk. Horse should not drag or stumble, Legs should be moving with out getting stuck or spinning or dragging or stumbling. Walking like drunk and falling down is even worse. Zena did good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iaiMIrrDO4

Zena did great: a blindfold neuro test. Really cool! By blindfolding a horse the horizon is taking away from them and if they have neurological symptoms, they would walk like drunks or fall. Zena did good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1C-uGBweorA

Zena did great: a tail pull neuro test. Horse should be strong enough not to wobble or fall down when hind end is pulled by tail. This is where I see a HUGE improvement with Zena. 1 month ago she was swayed by a strength that is needed only to open a door, and now the vet is putting all of her body weight in to it and she is being very strong and great! Zena did good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OWk1Y5EDOg

This is a video when Zena stumbled from noise walking up the hill and showed lameness on right hind. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oriL8gh9S4Y
She was diagnozed with the sesamoid ligament injury that UC Davis missed (???) :(
********* :) UPDATE: DECEMBER 2009 :) **************
http://www.dressageart.com/Zena/zena_paddock1.jpg

Zena was released by our vet to move to the larger paddock. She is now at 35x25 paddock with a 3 way shelter and doing quite well. She still has swelling on her right hind, but nobody seen her knuckle already for a month or so and no any other neuro symptoms. It seems that she is free from the neuro symptoms at least at walk. I'm exited about her great progress!

********* :) UPDATE: FEBRUARY 2010 :) **************
5 months later fracture is fully healed and I was able to start turning Z. out in the sand arena. We had a lot of rain lately, and the very first thing that Z. does is to roll in mud! So here is one very muddy chestnut mare for you!
http://www.youtube.com/user/Dressage.../1/ib2d6MBNQKk

Hold on to your hats on this cold and windy day - nobody told Z that she had a neck fracture http://www.youtube.com/user/Dressage.../0/ZnznfRbR7Gs#p/u/3/Z4LEX_D6T00

And more calm free lunging on the very warm day. Good thing that Z still remembers how to calmly free lunge around me on a circle (what a good girl!!!) http://www.youtube.com/user/Dressage.../0/ZnznfRbR7Gs

[Penthilisea]

That sounds neurological to me, how is her coordination otherwise right now?

[jnel]

I'm so sorry for the both of you, you must be worried sick. I'm jingling for a quick recovery.

[Kiwayu]

Definitely sounds neurologic. Should you wait until next week to pull blood??? I would think that if the vet thinks it's EPM, the sooner you start treatment the better.

Jingles for a speedy recovery!

[blackstallion2]

Jingles for Zena from Virginia -
If it is something neuro, it sounds like you are catching right away. It isn't necessarily epm, could be a back injury. Try not to assume the worst...

[grayarabpony]

Sorry to hear about this -- that sounds like a terrible thing to have to watch. Best wishes for your mare!

[jetsmom]

Sending healing thoughts for Zena from TX.

[partlycloudy]

she's gorgeous! Epsm?

[stryder]

I am so sorry for you, and for your worrier princess. I hope you find the cause and she can be made right again.

[HealingHeart]

I wonder if a chiropractor would be able to help. Is your vet or you open to them? The blood test will tell you what you are dealing with or not... its not a pinch...

[Cindyg]

Wow, you guys look fabulous together! I'm so sorry about this scary situation!

[eventgroupie2]

No knowledge of anything like this.... just a ton of jingles and best wishes for a speedy recovery from VA

[AKB]

I would be headed for the nearest vet school. Admittedly, I panic easily, but possible neurological problems scare me. If they think she has EPM, you want her on medication now, not next week.

[merrygoround]

MY best to Zena. Keep your mind open to Dx thoughts. Anything to do with the remarkable extension?

always looking for a sensible sane out!

[Bluey]

Beautiful mare.:)
I would also have them check for WNV, EEE, WEE, rhino and tick transmitted diseases, just in case.
Whatever it is, it sounds more of an emergency than a lets see problem.:eek:

Best wishes it is something simple.:(

[Dressage Art]

Thank you for your warm thoughts. I'm going crazy here with unknown and was ready to drive her to the equine hospital, but after 2 vets saw her and I talked with both of them they both reasured me that there is nothing that can be done now. And the blood tests for EPM and other neuro is processed only once per week at a local equine hospital and blood needs to be as fresh as it can be = thus we have to wait until next week to draw the blood and ship it to the hospital. And then it'll take another 7-10 days to hear the result... horrible... in the mean time I was told to keep her hand walking and keep everything "normal" to reduce her stress, since neuro is worsened by any stress...

I was hoping that somebody would reply: "Oh, I had that and it went away the next day" anybody???

I'm really puzzled since today it was just a very lazy trail ride with a friend. It was hot, about 100F. Yesterday she was supper, but didn't appear to be stressed and I didn't really "push her" since I was too hot to ride anyway, so I even rode in my Western boots, didn't even bother putting my dressage tall boots with spurs... I just hoped on her and let her go... and she went for it! It was magical!

I'm at loss what triggered it... she went down on the absolutely flat, hard trail ground (groomed fire trail)

[ChocoMare]

Jingles for Zena, dear DA :sadsmile:

[Grataan]

What a lovely mare (and so glad to see you wearing your helmet even in the show ring!)

I'm thinking good thoughts and jingling like mad here.

Just love on her and be VERY CAREFUL if you do decide to walk her-she may go down if she stumbles and we don't want you underneath her

[BaroquePony]

I am not as knowledgeable about the specifics of the various things that can cause something like what you are describing, but it definatley does sound serious. I would try to find another vet as soon as possible. Like, get on the phone NOW. Sorry to hear about somehting like this.

ETA: I am not saying to dump your vet, but get advice from the best clinic or clinics that you can. They often will be willing to help your vet. I would NOT wait a week.

[Donkey]

I am so sorry. I hope it goes away as suddenly as it came.

That is such a long wait for answers- especially since your lovely mare is so stressed and the potential for an additional injury is so great.

Are there any testing facilities available nation wide that can do the test sooner?

[Lieslot]

Probably totally not the case!!!, but I'll mention it anyway.

Her heartbeat sounds okay?
My horse collapsed under me in a similar fashion a couple of years back and when he got back up looked totally neurological in the hindend. I only had to move him a short distance from my ring to his stall, and he just did not have a clue where his hindlegs were. He remained unstable in the hindend for the rest of that day. Only a couple of days later when he was already acting normal again, did I find out his heart had gone into Afib at that very moment.
Again it's "highly" unlikely this is the case with your mare, but it won't hurt to take a quick listen to her heartbeat :)

Good luck & hoping she'll be back to normal SOON!!!

[AKB]

A vet who has seen a lot of EPM can give you a good guess after a clinical exam as to whether or not she has EPM. I would be afraid to wait if they feel she has EPM. A friend's horse got very ill in a hurry with EPM. By the time she got him to the horspital and on EPM medication, he could barely walk and he had rubbed a huge ulcer in his eye. If it could be herpes/neurological rhino antiviral medicine (valcyclovir) could help. Some other diagnoses are not a crisis, and can wait.

I am a worrier and I would be afraid to wait. Your mare looks like a lovely horse and it is better to figure things out now if you can. You may want to call the vet hospital and talk with the resident on call. They may be able to advise you about coming in. If they say that they have a medicine specialist who would be called in to see her tonight, I would pack up the mare and go now. You also could call your vet again and tell him that your friends are worried that she needs an evaluation now. Perhaps the labs could be overnight mailed to another part of the country and run tomorrow am. As soon as they have been drawn, maybe she can start some medication.

[EiRide]

Jingles from PA!

[MidlifeCrisis]

DA, call Davis and ask to speak to the doctor on call. He/she can evaluate it and decide whether it's best to bring her in to the hospital. Even though they can't do a lot of tests on the weekend, they are able to support a horse in crisis. The Davis vets are MUCH MUCH better at evaluating weird things than our local vets. So call now before it gets dark.
Davis phone # (530) 752-0290

[BasqueMom]

Don't wait....BAsque is a recovered EPM horse. We got test results much quicker than
your time frames and that was 11 years ago. UC-Davis does the elite EPM test--why
don't you give them a call. Did they do a neuro exam on her? Any suggestions of starting her on Marquis until the results come in? If it is EPM, the sooner the treatment is started,
the less damage will be done. Did they x-ray the fetlocks or perhaps the spine?

[Dressage Art]

The vet told me that putting her on the trailer and driving for 2 and 1/2 hours to equine hospital in the shaky trailer might stress her out even more and that will worsen the neuro situation. The tests are done at Davis only at one place mid week. It's a weekend and blood will be stale, no good by the time of testing. Otherwise, both vets checked her out and did the exam, all signs are OK and flexions are OK and she is sound and when she doesn’t “trip” it’s impossible to see that there is anything wrong with her. The only thing is they put her on the Bute for now and rest…. Lots of love and treats…

However, I'll call again and talk with equine hospital and with my vet. I'm willing to do what ever it takes, but I don't want to cause more damage and stress her even more and see her fall down in the trailer and so on and so fourth IF all vets agree that I just should stay put for now... but I'll call now anyway...I can't do anything other than staring at the wall anyway, so doing something will be much better for ME, but will it be better for Zena? She is standing in her paddock, snoozing now.

and yes, I already heard stories that some horses go down in 6 weeks with EPM and had to be put down... it's horrible! but she also can have other things wrong with her such as herpes or West Nile (yet she is vaccinated regularly), but all of them require blood test and she will be tested for everything + I'm planning to do e-rays and ultra sounds just in case... but from what I understood now, we need to do that in no stress situation... yet I don't even know what could off been stressful for her... she loves trail riding and been on that trail 101+ times...

anyway, thank you for talking with me… only horse people can understand how it feels…

[AKB]

Let us know what you find out from the vets and how she is doing. My friend's horse had difficulty standing on the second day of EPM symptoms, which is why I worry about waiting. Another friend's horse was the opposite end of the EPM spectrum. He had EPM for years before they figured it out. The second horse never got very sick, just a little unsteady. He healed completely after medication. The first horse has done fairly well, but it has been a long road to recovery.

I know it is hard to make a decision to head to the vet school if it is 2 1/2hrs away. See what the on call vet school vet and your vet think should be done. If you go to Davis, watch for a vet student named Annika. She was in our pony club here in Virginia before she went to vet school.

Good luck. Horse illnesses are never fun.

[Dressage Art]

OK, I called my vet and she said that if I want I can try going to Davis and do the spinal tap. The blood work still will not be able to be done until Monday/Tuesday/Wednesday since my vet just did the whole diagnoses for the EPM horse last week and went thru that with Davis already. But she said that Davis can do a better spinal x-ray. Since my mare is stable, they don't really need to stabilize her... She again cautioned me about trailering her to Davis ... it's my choice... F%$^&*(%

I'll call them now and see what they'll say...

[Grataan]

If you can afford to go now, I would go. I always tell clients that I'd rather see their horse and not be needed than wait to see it and have been needed much sooner.

[AKB]

See what the vet at Davis says and then you can decide. I always hate these tough decisions.

I think my vet sends the EPM tests to IDEXX labs, although I am not sure. http://www.idexx.com/equine/laboratory/epm/
If you don't go to Davis, you can check and see if IDEXX can run the labs over the weekend for you. I know our strep equi /strangles titers came back from IDEXX really quickly. I don't know if the EPM test is standard and any equine lab can run it, or if it should only be run by certain labs.

I hope whatever your mare has sorts itself out quickly, and she is ok very soon.

[2LaZ2race]

JINGLES that it's something freak that she will recover from fully and quickly

[twofatponies]

How scary! Hoping for good news. Maybe it's some kind of freak nerve pinch, like horsey sciatica? Fingers crossed...

[BaroquePony]

She again cautioned me about trailering her to Davis ... it's my choice... F%$^&*(%

These are very difficult decisions to make, no matter what. Did you ask her, if it was her horse, what would she do?

[shea'smom]

Jingles! I have something similar with my gelding.
Very hard call to make to transport them in a bad state.
Please keep us updated.

[Dressage Art]

I can afford to go now, I have money saved up for the vet bills – this is just the responsible thing to do. For me that is not the question, since financially talking, replacing showing 4th level, schooling PSG mare will be much, much more expensive + I love her to peaces.

I talked with Davis, they told me that I should check up on her now and walk her and turn her sharp to see if she is still doing the same with her hind legs. If it's better = I need to come there at the morning. It's its worse = I need to come there now. I'm off to the barn now with my fingers crossed!

[jenm]

I'm crossing my fingers and toes and jingling like crazy for you and Zena!!

I do hope your trip can be made in the morning.

[wbhorseusa]

Good luck Dressage Art, it sounds like you are doing the right thing by your horse. Hopefully if you have caught it in time she will recover completely. It does sound like you are headed in the right direction.

My thoughts are with you and your beautiful horse.

[R D Lite]

Sending more jingles for you and your mare.

[gubbyz]

Can she put her head down to eat? My gelding had a similar thing. EPM neg. xrays of his neck not so good. Had a ruptured vertebrae. Please make sure you have the front end checked as well.

[Dressage Art]

Came back from the barn. The good news that I wasn't able to make her trip, she can move around and eats fine and can put her head down; she is back to her steady self on her all 4. The bad news that her hind legs are swollen (equally). So I gave her 2 grams of Bute, liniment spray and wraps + lots of apples and carrots. Called Davis, they are expecting us tomorrow and I'm planning to leave her there for a couple of days for them to observe her.

Thank you for your warm thought, I think they helped already! It’s such a relive to see her not scrambling and falling down!

[marta]

so sorry!
jingles! best wishes!
i'll be thinking of you and zena.

[tpup]

Glad you are going tomorrow. Best wishes and lots of jingles!

[AKB]

i'm glad she is better, and also glad you are going to Davis in the am.

[MrWinston]

For your lovely mare. Please keep us posted. I'm praying that this is something that will be treatable and end up with a full recovery.

[ShotenStar]

Adding to the jingles for a quick identification and solution to this episode.

*star*

[Bank of Dad]

My mare with EPM did not have swollen legs ever. Praying its not EPM and that its treatable.

[Bluey]

Last fall my gelding had similar symptoms, but not when riding him, when brought in from weekend pasture he was unstable.
He was taken to the vet immediately.
They diagnosed possibly neurological rhino/flu, he was started on treatment asap, stayed at the vet hospital for two weeks and was fine afterwards.
He also had swollen hind legs the next day.
He also was a horse that had been vaccinated regularly, was barely six months since his last set of flu shots.

They sent the blood sample to U of Davis for confirmation and as part of their epidemiological studies, I had to sign an authorization for that and those tests came back positive, so there was no question.

He was fine and didn't have any residual effects from it at all, the vets declared him 100%, once it ran it's course.

I sure hope that is what ails your mare and that it may resolve as quickly and well.:yes:

[Woodland]

I just wish you & Zena all the very best. My heart goes out to you both. :yes:

[asb_own_me]

Jingles to you and your mare, and for a speedy diagnosis and a good outcome.

[Hazelnut]

Holy Moly Dressage Art...that sounds horrible and scarey. I am sending good thoughts to Zena and you. It's so hard to see them in pain and suffering of any kind and I wish you luck for a quick diagnosis and recovery for Zena.

[sid]

Hope this was just a freak thing.

But a PSA for those who posted about EPM. My neighbor lost one in 48 hrs from first symptoms...just a little "off" (she was using my indoor).

I was involved from first symptoms to the end. Didn't know that EPM can be that acute and taken them that fast, but it did. Necropsy showed the protozoa hit the brain stem.

Big jingles for your girl and hope you find quick answers at Davis..:yes:

[lindsay_aggie]

Food for thought: Common supportive treatment for EPM, WNV, EEE, WEE, back injury, etc. is DMSO jugs to reduce inflamation and minimize spinal cord damage. Not saying that your vet is incorrect, but wanted to mention this because it would be one option for making transporting her safer and less stressful.

My one experience with EPM was a rapid onset similar to yours and my vet's course of action was DMSO jug/fluids at the barn and as soon as she was stable enough on her feet haul her to the clinic. She was bad enough that she could not turn without staggering and potentially falling. He suspected EPM so we drew blood for that (I know it is just a titer, but positive titer + symptoms + testing for WNV even though she was vaccinated (negative) = treat as EPM and if it is a back injury count ourselves lucky). I actually started her on Marquis before the test was done because of my vet's strong suspicion and being able to locate a partial tube through someone who had recently lost an EPM horse.

Good luck, I hope that she makes a quick and full recovery.

[sid]

And for God's sake, don't let the horse get Azium (dex), Naquazone or any other steriod for the inflammation in the hind legs for having fallen. If it's EPM, the worst thing one can do is suppress the immune system. Forget the hind legs if that's secondary to a systemic illness.

Not a vet...but I've seen that mistake made. Very sad.

[BaroquePony]

Any news on how the horse is?

[asterix]

jingling for you and your horse. You are doing the right thing by not waiting and seeing what Davis can do for you.
keep us updated!

[Yip]

I am SO sorry. That must have been traumatic for both of you. I hope your mare is settled now and it doesn't happen again when she's alone.

Having BTDT with an EPM horse, I agree with the others that time is of the essence. Hope it is something else, though. WNV can also cause neuro. symptoms. EPM is a heartbreaking thing to have to endure. It can ruin a good horse forever - BUT they can recover if treated quickly!

[crthunder]

Jingles DressageArt! My two boys and I are sending hugs and carrots! Keep us updated!

Becky, Red & Raalph

[Dressage Art]

We dropped off Zena at UC Davis at the morning. Weird weather: lightning and thunder then almost 100F at mid day. She is not better today, so I'm glad that you urged me to go to UC Davis. They did the whole neurological exam and it was so sad to see her trot – her hind hoofs were hanging from her fetlocks like jelly, like light bulbs during the earthquake, they were just dangling uncontrollably in the air from her fetlocks. The side tail pull from behind she was easily swaying left and right, loosing her balance so easy, so sad to see. She started to wing out very wide during the walk. But the worst is that she is starting to “knuckle over” (as vets say) just while she is standing and shifting from one leg to another in her stall. Her hoofs just fold over forward and she ends up standing on the front of her fetlocks. then she is in pain and starts kicking the pain out with her hind legs. Her fetlocks are swollen now and hot.

Blood work is started, but results will be known on Monday/Tuesday/Wednesday. Davis vet started her on Marquis and banamine. On Monday they will take her spine x-rays. Vet told me that she doesn’t know what is it, since Zena’s case is not black and white EPM symptoms. Also may be West Nine or nerve block in neck/spine. Her main symptom is hind end weakness, and hard to control her BOTH hind legs.

Tomorrow is Sunday, so not much will be done other than keeping her comfortable, medication and another (same) neurological exam to see if she is worse or better. Monday will be the main testing when all of the specialists vets will come to work, and Tuesday we’ll get the results back if lab is not back-ordered.

[JackieBlue]

This sounds so scary for both you and your girl. I am so sorry, DA. I will be jingling like mad for both of you!

[BumbleBee]

Huge jingles. Can't imagine having to wait till Monday.:eek:

[dwblover]

Oh my goodness, I'm sorry you are having to deal with this. The waiting and not knowing are the worst parts! Jingles that you will have an answer soon and healing can begin for your beautiful girl!!

[BaroquePony]

Sounds horrible for you to have to deal with, but you definatley did the right thing getting her into the UC Davis Clinic ASAP. Hope they can zero in on the problem.

[AKB]

I am sorry you and Zena are going through this, but am glad you are at Davis. When my horse had a mystery ailment 2 1/2 years ago, our referral hospital was closed due to a herpes outbreak. We had to care for him at home, as best we could. One good part about having her at a referral hospital is that they will be able to keep her as comfortable as possible. If it is like our referral hospital, the horses are checked repeatedly, night and day. I always worried that when I was asleep, if my boy needed assistance, no one would be there to help him. If Zena is thirsty, hungry, or cold or hot, she will get whatever she needs, even at 3am. If she gets cast in her stall, there will be a team of people helping her get up. It is hard to have them away from home, but even harder when they are home and you can't give them everything they need.

Keep us posted. I hope Zena improves quickly and dramatically.

[Equilibrium]

DA,

I am so so sorry. I just found this thread and will be jingling like mad for you and Zena.

Terri

[okggo]

OH MY! I'm praying for you and your beautiful mare!!

I had a mare with EPM close to 15 years ago back when it was rarely diagnosed. What I find odd about your girl is the sudden onset. My own experience, and of those I know of that dealt with it, it is generally a progressive thing - gets worse with time, not an all of a sudden thing. Makes me wonder more if it's some kind of tick borne (or mosquito, etc) disease.

With my girl, it was a gradual weakening of the hind end. She started jumping funny and was having difficulty with things like circles. Again, it got worse rather slowly, over the course of probably 4 months or more kept being diagnosed wrong, and finally when they figured it out, I found her in the stall seated like a dog (butt down) and just sitting there. We treated her (had spinal tap done, and confirmed EPM), but we found out about hers way too late, and unfortunately the damage was already severely done.

Jingling for your girl! Keep us posted!

[Quinn]

I can offer no advice but rest assured you and she will be in my thoughts and prayers. Sending loud and strong jingles your way.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

[Stacie]

Jingling like mad for Zena

[LuvMyTB]

DA--I am jingling hard for you and Zena. How frightening for you both. Please keep us updated when you can.

[Home Again Farm]

I am so very glad that you got her into Davis quickly. Hopefully, they will get to the bottom of this and get her on the road to recovery. I can only imagine how hard this must be with a mare that you have taken so far in training. I am jingling non stop for her and for you, too. {{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}}}}

[LisaW-B]

I'm so glad you have her at UC Davis; they're the best. I lost a horse to neuro symptoms, so I know how scary it can be (my horse had a tumor that grew through his spine--*extremely* rare, so rare that there's almost no information or research about it). I sincerely hope your mare's case is easy to resolve. Davis is absolutely the best place she could be right now. Seriously, I wish they could be MY primary care doctor sometimes, even though now I'm out of state.

[Dressage Art]

I found her in the stall seated like a dog (butt down) and just sitting there.What a painful sight to see. I do not want to see my horse in severe pain, but I'm having nightmares already. Vet did say that it is unusual that she never "buckled" before and now it's so severe = may be not EPM, may be some damage in the spine = they will do neck and spine X-rays on Monday. The good thing that she said that if it's a pinched nerve b/c of the developing arthritis, it treatable. She will be tested also for West Nile and Herpes, but she is vaccinated and there are no other horses around who have that, so it’s unlikely. Who knows what secondary damage she will do to her self standing on her fetlocks 50-100 times per day...

I'm glad that I have horse people to share Zena with. My hearful thank you for all of your support. I do not deal well with watching suffering. I’m not strong this way.

[SMF11]

Dressage Art, you have done such a good job for your horse! I am sure your vets are good, but in these situations you want the BEST, and you got on it right away. Well done.

And thank you for the updates. There are more people than are posting that are pulling for both of you. You are in all our thoughts.

[Dressage Art]

Got a call from the vet, Zena is doing worse: she is knuckling over and ending up walking on the front of her fetlocks even on the smooth and even black top now. Might be b/c of meds that fight neuro infections...

[matryoshka]

Oh no!!

[FlashGordon]

I've been afraid to open this thread but finally did it.... DA your mare is lovely and you guys make a beautiful team. I will be sending loads of good thoughts your way. Hopefully she will make a turn for the better soon!

[Bluey]

Got a call from the vet, Zena is doing worse: she is knuckling over and ending up walking on the front of her fetlocks even on the smooth and even black top now. Might be b/c of meds that fight neuro infections...

I guess that they did check for nutritional myopathy from selenium deficiency, just in case, since they are still not sure what is going on?
Knuckling over is a symptom of it.
Just looking for zebras, since hoofbeats don't seem to be horses in your case.

[War Admiral]

How terrifying. MANY jingles for you both, and very glad you got her to UCD.

[blackstallion2]

Continued jingles :(
You've done the best thing you could do for her, hospitalize her where they can moniter her round the clock and keep her comfortable until the tests reveal what's going on. Hopefully they will just keep her quiet and not make her walk too much more. I still have her beautiful Christmas card and will keep you both in my thoughts. I've been through the same with a 2 year old, and we pulled through it, it was a long slow battle, but once you have the diagnosis, you are half way there. Her EPM giveaway was falling and not being able to rise on her own.

[Watermark Farm]

I just read through this thread and am SO sorry that you and your mare are going through this. She is in good hands at the VMTH. I hope things look up.

[Blue Bunny]

I'm so sorry you are going through this and sending mega jingles your way.

[ToN Farm]

, so it’s unlikely. Who knows what secondary damage she will do to her self standing on her fetlocks 50-100 times per day...

Have they totally ruled out that as the primary problem? I mean, could she have torn both hind suspensories? It has happened. I guess they have a reason for walking her, but it seems to me it would cause more soft tissue strain.

[Dressage Art]

They do not see any soft tissue injury and the surgeon looked at her today and palpated/flexed her. They are sure that it is neuro related (thus she is with neuro specialist vet now: I will get some answers tomorrow from blood work and from X-rays (nothing supper specialized is open at the weekend). They are concerned that she might have damaged something in the right fetlock as a secondary thing. It is horrible to watch her walk on the back top and knuckle forward and jump/jump/jump in pain, but they need to see how she is doing compare to yesterday so they are doing the full neuro exam every day and recording findings. they did wrap her hind legs to hoofs, to prevent scrapes. I'm thinking that at home I might just put the heavy duty shipping boots on her?

PS: and if you look at the page 10+ 2nd opinion vet did find a serious soft tissue damage... you just cant rely on one vet's opinion... and I do think noe that they did more damage by walking her on the black top daily when she was knuckling over...

[copper bay farm]

So sorry to hear your beautiful girl is going through this. How terrifying. Many, many jingles from PA for both of you!

[Bluey]

I hope they have more promising news for you this morning.:yes:

[marta]

still jingling for zena.
hope you get some answers today.

[asb_own_me]

Continued jingles from the Pupster, who's a walking miracle - he's hoping Zena gets the same kind of miracle he got last winter!!!

[trubandloki]

Jingling for Zena!

[Lieslot]

Dalmar tendon support boot
http://205.252.250.27/dalmar/treatment.html

Would this be something for her, to help stay up on those fetlocks rather then knockle down? It's the only boot that will actually offer any support unlike smb's for example.
Just a thought.

Jingling for horse you get answers soon and that she may be treated and be well soon!

[JackieBlue]

Have they totally ruled out that as the primary problem? I mean, could she have torn both hind suspensories? It has happened. I guess they have a reason for walking her, but it seems to me it would cause more soft tissue strain.

Suspensory injury shouldn't result in knuckling forward of the fetlock joints. If catastrophic injury to support structures in the back of the leg were the issue, the fetlocks would drop straight down, not flip forward. What the OP describes is a classic sign of neurologic defecit, possibly related to injury, but not likely injury of the suspensories.

I hope you get some answers today, DA, and that you have a moment to share them with us. 'Still praying and jingling for you and your girl!

[Dressage Art]

Dalmar tendon support boot
http://205.252.250.27/dalmar/treatment.html

Thank you for the link, I emailed them.

Today I spoke again to my friend who was walking directly behind us and saw exactly how Zena went down. It was on the fire trail=wide as a fire truck, groomed totally flat, no holes, no stones, no nothing, just a flat packed dirt... I have no idea why she went down... we were just calmly walking on the long rein and then BAM!!!! I can't imagine how she can get a trauma that would sent her down to the ground by just walking on the flat ground... it's very confusing. It's more confusing that she went from stage 0 to stage 4 in neuro in a second!!!!!!! that it wasn't a gradual progression...


I talked with a vet today and they said she is doing about the same. They took blood, but we'll get the results in 1-3 days. They are taking her for the X-rays now. I'll hear about them latter. Vet said that everybody thinks that she is an "interesting case and want her to stay longer and run more tests if others will not give us an answer"...

[Quinn]

I'm keeping you both so close in my thoughts and prayers today.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

[Laurierace]

Jingling for a positive outcome to this mystery.

[Buffyblue]

Jingles from NYC for your girl!

[Trevelyan96]

Jingles for your beautiful girl DA!

[jen-s]

So incredibly sorry to hear about your mare. The pics are beautiful and I'm jingling like crazy here in NC that she'll bounce back quickly. Please keep us updated with the latest. ((Hugs))

[skyy]

Nothing sucks quite as much as having the vet say your horse is an "interesting case". Been there. Here's hoping they can figure it out and fix her.

[Reiter]

Lots of jingles for you and Xena!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MistyBlue]

Poor girl, good thoughts for her.
Is it possible that the swift onset of neuro symptoms could have been a type of stroke/aneurysm?

[AKB]

More jingles and prayers for Zena.

[eventgroupie2]

Continued hugs, prayers, and jingles from VA.

[Nlevie]

Wow - how scary. But I'm glad she's in good hands and hope that they will find out what's wrong soon. Many jingles for your beautiful mare !

[kookicat]

Sending more jingles!

[2LeftHooves]

jingles from NJ!

[amdfarm]

Jingling like mad for beautiful Zena and you, DA.

(((HUGS)))

[Puddin Pie]

More jingles and long distance hugs from NC. I am so glad you got her to the vet hospital!

[Dressage Art]

Finally, I heard from UC Davis.

They did a rectal exam = normal

They did X-ray of both fetlocks = normal, thanks God she still didn't damage herself there

They did her neck X-ray and she has arthritis in her neck slightly more than they like to see in 11 year old horse, but still fairly normal. A small peace of bone is chipped (fractured) between 6 and 7 vertebra and floating (slightly separated) as I was told. It's less than 1 month old. So it's fairly fresh. It doesn't seem to bother her neck movement at all, but it still can be pinching her nerves or inflamation from that fracture can be pressing on her spinal cord.

Zena did trip on cavalletti in July 22nd and went bucking like maniac, then she was lame and on the stall rest until September 1, then she was bucking and farting on the lunge line during the vet re-exam on September 1, but was veted 100% sound and we started the re-hab. She has 3 small scrapes on her face from fights with her neighbors (she's always teaching them how to live their life, silly girl), + she did go down really fast at the trail = so all of those can be the reason for the broken bone chip in her neck.

However, the Davis vets still say that they can not say for sure that this is the reason for her uncontrollable hind legs, since arthritis or bone fragment doesn’t bother her at all in her neck. So they are continuing with the EPM+etc... Blood work and will also do a spine tap for EPM and censer tomorrow. They also started a Power Pack for spine worms.

I really want to hope that the bone chip is the answer = since it might be easier to fix. EPM on the other hand has not much chances of recovery. (I think it's only 10%?)

[Bluey]

We will keep pulling for you and your beautiful mare.:yes:

[Quinn]

My prayers for her continue.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

[Daydream Believer]

I'm just now seeing this thread after being gone all weekend. I wanted to add my jingles for your mare. I have had EPM come on that acutely in a little horse about two weeks after having his hocks injected (steriods). I hope whatever it is, it is treatable. Have they put her on Marquis?

[VirginiaBred]

Prayers for your lovely girl.

[skyy]

Don't lose hope. My daughter's pony had sudden onset EPM symptoms (didn't want to come in from turnout, when convinced to walk he staggered, assymetrical sweating, fell down when you pulled his tale, could not spin without staggering, etc). We immediately started Marquis and he recovered almost completely. The only remaining sympton is that he holds his muzzle a little bit off to one side. He is completely sound and she WTC and jumps him. He has never taken a bad step and has never indicated that he didn't know where his legs were at all times. They can recover.

[eventgroupie2]

Just more jingles from VA after the update.....

[First Wegan]

Jingles for your pretty mare DA!
I hope you have answers soon.

[War Admiral]

More jingles down here in GA.

[Dressage Art]

Thank you again for your continues kindness for Zena.
I have had EPM come on that acutely in a little horse about two weeks after having his hocks injected (steriods). I hope whatever it is, it is treatable. Have they put her on Marquis?

Zena had a navicular bursa injected on August 11 as well... what happened to your horse? And yes, Zena is on Marquis + vitamins now.

[Daydream Believer]

My horse had his hocks injected per the vet's suggestion after doing flexions. He was more "off" on one side than the other. Vet did not suggest xrays trying to save me money...I now realize what a terrible mistake that was. What we had was early EPM and the steroids in the hock injections probably caused a drop in his immune response allowing a rapid growth of the protozoa. His onset was very sudden about 2 weeks later...like one day normal and the next day staggering like a drunk and falling down (literally.)

I was totally freaked out and had the vet right out. We at first thought it might be trauma...and handled it as such... but decided to treat with Marquis just in case. In 3 days after the onset, he had a classic "treatment crisis" and then improved. The treatment was our diagnosis...we never did the spinal tap.

Since that happened, I've heard of it happening to other horses also talking to some very savvy vets. It's not something your average vet probably has had happen to them and I'm always shocked at how casually people inject horses...but then I did...when a vet I trusted told me it was OK. What else can we do but trust the experts we hire? :no:

My horse was treated with Marquis and he recovered to a Grade 1 on the Neuro scale. He made it back to light ring work and easy trail rides but I was never able to trust his balance again. He had been schooling about 2nd level when that happened. I was just sick. :(:cry:

He also suffered a second EPM attack a couple years later following worming from Ivermectin....another concern with EPM as it can cross the blood/brain barrier. He now has a permanent facial tick also...and his neuro condition is about a permanent 1.5 on the scale.

My horse is now a much pampered and fully retired companion horse with a good friend I trust. He will never have Ivermectin again and we are very careful with his vaccines also being careful to not over stress his immune system. I've since gotten much more careful with all my horses in that regards.

I will send lots of jingles and prayers for your girl...and from a little horse named Nevada who also fought for his life once in the same way.:sadsmile:

[matryoshka]

Wow DDB. That connection would not have occurred to me. Thanks for sharing your experience. It is a sobering thought.

For the OP, I know of quite a few race horses who were treated for EPM and went back to racing. They were treated with Navigator (I think that's the name) rather than Marquis because there have supposedly been fewer relapses. The trouble with Navigator is that the horse can spike a fever early in treatment and must be watched closely.

Those race horses were only exhibiting weakness, not more serious signs. So I don't know if the prognosis would be similar.

God bless you and your horse!!

[aaussie_gal]

This is the link to the Yahoo EMP support group:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EPM

There's a lot of EPM info and links to various drug protocol info (Marquis, Navigator, trads, etc) and latest research by the EPM gurus (I think from the U of FL) at this link: http://www.meadowherbs.com/EPMcenter.htm

I haven't been on the list for quite a while but when Navigator was first released, they recommended treatment be done in a hospital setting because of risk of complications, incl laminitis.

Both these links have lots of related info ... for example, if memory serves me correctly EPM horses do better on high doses of Vit E for the rest of their lives. There are links to gradual rehab for your horse when it's safe to begin this, and before this some Linda-Tellington Jones work you can begin with your horse.

Drugs that cross the blood/brain barrier, and (again, if memory serves me correctly) anecdotal evidence that horses do better if vaccinations are split up and many use Banamine before vaccinations. Info on de-worming. Some horses do better if Marquis is followed by trads; one of these drugs is absorbed better if given with (corn?) oil; the necessity of regular bloodwork to check for anemia if the horse is on trads long-term. How stress can trigger relapses ... even stress of a trailer ride.

From casual discussions with one of the vets I use, I know that his understanding of EPM is "well, it's easily cured with a course of Marquis". Fairly obviously we live in an area where it's not common at this time.

But anyway ... these links give access to huge amts of info and latest research data.

Hope everything goes well for your beautiful mare,

Tarn in OK

[terrig]

I am so sorry you are having problems. I will add you and your mare to my prayer list.

[Dressage Art]

Waiting for the news...

Zena grew up in the 80 acre pasture with 30 horse heard. She is very sure footed and knows her way around the turn out. I was always very positive to put her in any kind of turn out, since she always took care of herself and was a great babysitter for others. she was first one to go and the last one to leave, since she is such a confident mare, she can stay in the middle of nothing all alone and be chewing on the grass... while other horses will be having separation attack.

She got wrapped in the electric fence wire, cut herself a bit deep in her hind leg in June. In July she lost her balance over the cavalletti when I was lunging her and went down and became lame on both front legs. In august she cut her hind legs 2 more time and had 3 cuts on her face = all very small and only skin deep, but now they look like she might been loosing her balance and had a lack of coordination for a couple of months already.

Yes, she was injected in her navicular bursa/coffin bone on both front legs in august and that's what' brought her back to soundness after the cavalletti trip.

2.5 years ago she was diagnosed with a mild Navicular Bone Degeneration in her Left Front and back then I was already been told that she might not be able to withstand much riding. But it was injections that brought her back to soundness and we progressed soundly from 2nd level to 4th level in the last several years. I'm grateful to her that we had a fantastic years together.

At the end, even if those injections did add to neuro collapse = for us there was no way to avoid them. So I still would recommend to people to do injections IF it is a question of lame/sound horse. They need that lubricant for their bones and they are absolutely pain free with that lubricant. But, I agree that casual, just in case injections are too risky.

I was blessed with that mare that she is a very stoic mare and her sure footed nature might off avoided her many other more common injuries, but F&*&$$ing ShH$%%& all cards that we been dealt had odds against us: 2 mild colics, mild Navicular Bone Degeneration, and now some kind of neuro...

[JstMyLuck3]

You should be very proud of yourself- she is so lucky to have a mom who cares so much and who can provide her with the best care! Keep us updated- you and Zena are in my thoughts.

[sdlbredfan]

I hope among the diagnostics is thorough ultrasounds of the suspensories. The knuckling over sure is a red flag for ligament problems. The Ultrasound can also tell if she has DSLD, although that normally has a gradual onset, not sudden like this. I am sending jingles and prayers too. This is a lucky horse to have such a great 'Mom'.
For more info on DSLD put that in a search engine, or go to
http://dsldequine.info/ - there is a list of symptoms including "knuckling forward in the fetlock joints".

[AKB]

DA, if the navicular bursitis acts up again after you get the possible EPM sorted out, there are options other than steroids. We have a 21 year old Irish Draught who went through 4th level dressage with my daughter. During his last few years of competition, we had to do the navicular bursa steroid injections every 3-12 months. Finally, the injections were not lasting very well, so we switched to coffin joint injections of IRAP. We also did regional perfusion of Tildren. Now, he is more lame again, so we may go back to navicular bursa injections of steroids and HA.

After you get everything sorted with the EPM, you may not be able to give Zena steroid injections for a while. Ask your vets at Davis about IRAP and regional perfusions (injections into the leg veins) of Tildren for the navicular, if she becomes lame. I am by no means an expert on horse health, but we have had a lot of "interesting" horse health problems over the past 15 years. At one time, the woman who makes appointments at our referral hospital recognized my voice when I would call for an appointment.

[Donkey]

Still jingling for you two. I hope you get some (simple with easy fool proof treatment options) answers soon.

[Dressage Art]

Still waiting for the most blood results, but some good news: herpes came negative. She doesn't have to stay in isolation and can be hand grazed on the small patch of green lawn in a sea of black top of UC Davis.

I asked again vets if they do have idea what she has, the answer was: we just don't see many horses who knuckle over so much and so sudden, she is a very interesting case, but we do know that it is neuro related... we'll know more after EPM results.

Her suspensories as per surgeon who did a soft tissue exam on her are fine, she knuckles over on both hind legs and not all the time, but thank youf or a thoght, I'll double check with vets.

[jenm]

I'm glad you got even a tiny bit of good news. It's nice you can at least bring her out for hand grazing.

Will continue to jingle like crazy for more good news!

[dutchfan]

did they do a spinal tap EPM test? That is the only definitive way to diagnose EPM - the blood test is not the best diagnostic test.

[Dressage Art]

I finally heard from the vets: the blood exam came with a very low EPM :) but they still did the spinal tap for the EPM spinal fluid exam and sent it to the lab today... the result from that will be known on Friday... waiting again...

Also they examined the spinal fluid for cancer = negative, but it did show the "off the chart" white blood cell count = possible viral infection. So they put her on the strong 5 day de-worming program. They also asked me to leave her for longer at the hospital, until they can find out what it is. So she might be there until Friday = whole week!

They also told me that the bone chip is on her right side and her right hind seems to be more affected - just an observation.

She is still doing the same: she is knuckling in her stall and outside.

[3horsemom]

what a lovely pair y'all make!
you both will be in my prayers.

[Buffyblue]

Continued Jingles for you both! Hopefully she'll be on the road to recovery very soon!

[ToN Farm]

They also asked me to leave her for longer at the hospital, until they can find out what it is. So she might be there until Friday = whole week! Gee, do you really have a choice? Is the chip in her neck operable? I guess the good news is that it is probably not EPM. My hunch was that it would not be that.
I wonder if these big clinics have a dialog with other big clinics to see if they have any information on these rare kinds of cases. Surely, there has been at least one horse somewhere that has displayed her symptoms.

How are YOU doing DA?

[jen-s]

How are YOU doing DA?

Exactly! While I'm very glad to hear that update about Zena, how are you? Taking care of yourself?

The news about herpes is great and hopefully everything in the spinal will come back neg too. Is the chip operable? You've been in my thoughts today and I'll be keeping my fingers crossed as the week progresses. Hugs and continued jingles from NC.

[Vivace]

Jingling for both of you in Michigan. What a heartbreaking tale.

[blackstallion2]

That seems like a little bit of good news, although the high white blood cell count says some kind of infection is going on, not just a bone chip. It sounds like they are covering all the bases. For whatever it's worth, they estimate some 90% of horses in my area would have positive blood results. It just means she was exposed to the protozoa, not that she necessarily has epm. The spinal result will give the answer there.

Continues jingles for Zena!!

[Dressage Art]

How are YOU doing DA?Thank you for asking. Well, it's 3:30 am and I still can't sleep even I'm loaded with sleeping pills and had a sangria cooler... I don't know to what I should prepare myself for? When I'm out, I can get consumed with at the moment thing, but when I'm home, I'm keep on reading about EPM and other neuro and it's a not optimistic picture. Every time a friend calls for update, I ended up crying for hours... Zena is young, strong, and she loves people, and it shows, and it's just not fair to see her in pain, confused and angry when she "knuckles" since she doesn't understand what/how she ends up in pain = then she stars kicking the pain away with her hind legs and pawing with her front legs. She "knuckles" more in the deep footing, so they keep it low, but he has soft wraps on her legs to help her to land on some cushion on her fetlocks.

I'm afraid.

[DownYonder]

I haven't read this entire thread, but just wanted to mention that a horse will knuckle over like that when it has had a nerve block to try to pinpoint the source of a lameness and other blocks aren't working. I can't remember which block it is - tibial nerve or peroneal nerve - but one of them does cause the horse to lose control of the lower limb and knuckle over. Since your horse is doing it in both hind legs, I wonder if it could be a problem with the source of those nerves high up in the spine.

I am so sorry you and your mare are having to go through this - I hope you find a treatable cause soon.

[Quinn]

Still sending jingles and prayers for BOTH of you. Your new update sounds somewhat hopeful.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

[AKB]

DA, I know what you are going through. Unfortunately, lots of us have been through it. All you can do is persevere and give Zena the best care possible. If she has something that can be diagnosed and treated, Davis will do their best to find it and treat it. Give Zena as much love and attention as you can, so she knows you are doing your best for her. Then, you can go home and cry, so you can get up the next day and do your best for her again.

[marta]

i don't think there are any shortcuts around the sadness, confusion, fear. spend a lot of time w/ her. pamper her. give her cookies (food is love you know ;)). and hope for the best. she's under the care of excellent professionals.

(((hugs))) to you.

[Daydream Believer]

Sending more jingles for your mare and {{{hugs}}} for you. I am hopeful it is not EPM also...Hang in there.

[trubandloki]

Still Jingling!

[DownYonder]

I just found this info -
Peroneal Nerve Dysfunction - http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000791.htm .

The info applies mainly to humans, but I thought this was an interesting statement - "Also, toxic exposure to chemicals such as polyvinyl chloride or styrene (made during the production of polystyrene) may lead to peroneal and other nerve damage."

You might also want to google peroneal nerve compression and peroneal nerve entrapment.

[Dressage Art]

Great news! Spine tap came back confirming no EPM!!!!!!!! :D

but she is still "knuckling" and they will call me with our next step.

[Laurierace]

I guess that is good news but it would be nice to know what you were dealing with so you could treat it accordingly. I hope they figure it out quickly for you both.

[ambar]

Hurray for no EPM and making /some/ diagnostic progress!

[blackstallion2]

Yes, great news! Continued jingles that she has only a temporary condition...

[sublimequine]

Yay for no EPM! The more things you can eliminate, the closer you are to a diagnosis. Jingles for you both! :)

[ctanner]

Jingling!

[3horsemom]

that is good news.
keeping my fingers crossed for a good outcome.

[kcmel]

Jingling for your lovely mare. My horse has neck arthritis, and had an acute flare-up when we injected some neck facets that cause severe knucking over in the front left only. He slowly recovered over a period of some months so that he is now rideable but he still knuckles over on occasion.

However, this was a very unusual presentation. I think that usually the hind legs are usually more affected than the front. The many vets at New Bolton that saw him were stumped, but could only hypothesize that he had an impingment of the radial nerve root on that side, due to the arthritis. He had a bone scan that showed a hot spot there (C5/C6 I think) as well as other places in his neck. I would ask for a bone scan if I were you.

Best of luck.

[Dressage Art]

The 2 small animal clinic vets looked at her and confirmed that the neck bone fragment that causing the spince inflamation is probably a good guess. Our next step is doing neck injections where the bone chip is and see if she recovers. No guarantee, but we can see if she will have some progress in a time frame of 2 months. Another option is a basket neck surgery, but I don't think that I'll go that way.

[Dressage Art]

kcmel, what happened to your horse? Did she stop "knuckling"over? How did you treat it?

[kcmel]

He made a lot of progress. It was very bad in the beginning--every step almost. It took a long time, as I said, several months before he started improving. Treatment was turnout in a small paddock (in lieu of stall rest, which I didn't think he could handle), bute, and I supplemented MSM and Vitamin E (both good for neuroinflammation). He also had some accupuncture and problably some chiro. I suspect though it was mostly time that helped. He was 11 when this happened, he is now 14 and hasn't shown any regression (knock on wood). No one is sure why the injections triggered this. He started showing symptoms about 24 hrs following.

[Sugarbrook]

I have been reading along since the first post. Just want to express my concern and best wishes for a good recovery.

[sdlbredfan]

I have been reading along since the first post. Just want to express my concern and best wishes for a good recovery.

Me too, and still jingling.

[Dressage Art]

Thanks. I'm trying to put her in the 30x30 paddock with a shelter. She use to be in the stall/paddock with a full day turn out and absolutely hates to be locked in the stall, so I don't feel it'll be fair to her to be locked in the stall for 2+ months with out turn out. I've been told to give her 2 month before we'll see any recovery. So I'm trying to arrange the paddock in my barn. I do not know what the chances of recovery are, but I know that she will not come back to schooling PSG level. But there are plenty of room in-between schooling PSG and can't control her hind legs/standing on her fetlocks. She's on 2 doses of banamine per day now, vet will try to reduce it to one + legend + adequan + vit E + MSM + glucosamine + wrapped hind legs.

He made a lot of progress. It was very bad in the beginning--every step almost. It took a long time, as I said, several months before he started improving. Treatment was turnout in a small paddock (in lieu of stall rest, which I didn't think he could handle), bute, and I supplemented MSM and Vitamin E (both good for neuroinflammation). He also had some accupuncture and problably some chiro. I suspect though it was mostly time that helped. He was 11 when this happened, he is now 14 and hasn't shown any regression (knock on wood). No one is sure why the injections triggered this. He started showing symptoms about 24 hrs following.

How many months? When did you start seeing any progress? More than 2 months? And what is he doing now?


I have to say that I miss her so much already. I'm loking forward to giving her a bath.

[kcmel]

DA, I want to say it was probably about 3 months before he really started making progress. Right now he is sound for hacking. We don't do the big gallops that we use to, or jump, and he has trouble going down steep hills, but other than that he does pretty well.

[sid]

Great news on the negative EPM. Good luck with your girl and hoping for a complete recovery.:)

[TikiSoo]

So sorry to hear about your scary ordeal. Glad to hear the EPM was negative....hoping & jingling that all news is minor & treatable.

[egontoast]

Like everyone else I'm hoping for a very good outcome for your horse.

One suggestion, but perhaps it has already been made, if it's neuro, very high doses of Vit E are a good idea while you are doing everything else.

[marta]

continued jingles for her recovery.

when is she coming home?

[Dressage Art]

Today they will try to do the neck injections - they have to schedule that. If so, I'll be able to take her home tomorrow. Neck injections are similar to hock injections = they might help or not and I'll have to redo them every 6 months as well to keep the lubrication going.

She's on 2 doses of banamine per day now, vet will try to reduce it to one + legend + adequan + vit E + MSM + glucosamine + wrapped hind legs until she will stop "knuckling" - if she will...

She has a fractured neck... I do not know (clear) what the chances of recovery are = so far vets are not telling me much, not giving me much hope. I'll be talking with them more when I'll be picking her up. My hubby will come with me and he will be able to actually ask them questions, not just only sob and be confused like me.

[eventgroupie2]

Hugs and jingles from VA - hoping for the best for you and your girl

[analise]

I know you've got her under the care of good vets and all but have they considered and tested for Lyme? I know of at least one horse who had a very sudden onset of very neurological symptoms and at first they suspected EPM but when the test came back negative, they tested for Lyme and she was off the charts! So something else to think about.

[Dressage Art]

Shoot, no large paddocks are open in our barn... they are all taken with a waiting list. So Zena will go back to her stall and paddock and I'll have to just put a hot wire around her stall so she will not play with her favorite pony friend next to her...

[Quinn]

I'm so sorry and I'm weeping away with you. I know how much you love your mare so don't give up hope for recovery. You have done everything humanly possible and now it's time for medicine and faith to take over. Keep up with your plans on rehab for her but truly, don't give up. Big hugs to you.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

[Dressage Art]

Thank you.

[Janet]

Don't give up yet.

I knew one mare who broke her neck (stuck her head between the baords of a fence and pulled back when startled). She never fully regained proper control/awareness of her back end, but she lived for many years as a pasture ornament (HILLY pasture) and even produced a few foals.

Obviously every case is different, but there IS hope.

[MistyBlue]

Can someone with experience in neck injuries on here maybe PM or type up a list of pertinent questions the OP can ask the vets? Maybe that way she can print it out and not have to worry about remembering to ask something...then read it or show it to the vet before she takes the horse home?

[dbadaro]

dressage art,

i wish you both a full and speedy recovery. such a pretty girl! does she look to be in pain or anything? all in all i bet she knows she has the best care!

good luck!

[Dressage Art]

does she look to be in pain or anything?Yes, she is in pain every time that she stands on the front of her fetlocks. It takes her a second or two to regain a proper hoof stand, so she is stumbling/jumping on both of her hind legs on the front of her fetlocks. She didn't go back down to her knees yet, as she did at our trail ride = she learned to catch herself faster. But both fetlocks are swollen from being over flexed and supporting the weight of her body where they are not designed to support it. She makes that noise as well. Then she stands with her hind right hind in the air and kicking out at the pain. That goes on for 50-100 times per day. She is on the Banamine for pain 2 times per day.

When she knuckles over, she looks like a Barbaro after he stumbled - when she did it on the trail = I immediately started to yell that my mare broke her leg!!!...It's not pretty to watch and she is in a very clear pain. It's very unfortunate. But both I and vets want to give her a chance, since when she doesn't stumble she looks just fine like a strong and healthy animal ready to live for another 10+ years!

[amdfarm]

Well shoot, DA!! Any idea how she did this to herself? Such a beautiful and talented girl.

Jingles and more jingles that the injections work.

(((HUGS))) to you. I can imagine how heartbreaking this is for you.

Stay strong for her. She needs you! :sadsmile:

[sdlbredfan]

I am so sorry to read this ("That goes on for 50-100 times per day. She is on the Banamine for pain 2 times per day."). Did you get a chance to ask the Vets about that special leg brace boot that someone sent a link about a few pages back??? That looks like something that could help her maintain stability. Otherwise, I'd be concerned that in one of her knuckling over moments, she'd damage the fetlock beyond repair.
ETA, I went looking for that boot again, here it is:
http://205.252.250.27/dalmar/treatment.html

[McVillesMom]

I don't know if they ever do this for older horses, but I know in foals/young horses with club feet, etc that tend to knuckle like that, the vet/farrier will put toe extensions on them to help prevent this. You might ask if this is ever done or is a possibility...:confused:

ETA...jingling for you and your mare!

[Dressage Art]

thank you for the continues ideas. I emailed people at that link for that boot, but didn't get the responce yet.

I'll ask my farrier about the toe extenders, never heard about them!

[blackstallion2]

Glad she is coming home. I second the vitamin E for nerve regeneration, and I don't think you can give too much of it. (in selenim depleted areas like mine, we give E and Se).

Jingles for an uneventful trip home tomorrow for you, Zena, and Mr. DA. :sadsmile:

[AKB]

I don't know if Davis has a therapeutic farrier. If so, you might have him take a look at Zena before you come home tomorrow. I don't know if he can make any special splints or shoes that will help her not knuckle over onto her fetlocks. Even if he has splints that she wears only when she is in the paddock, that might keep her comfortable.

Make a list of all of your questions. Most of the answers should be on your discharge instructions, but you do want everything addressed before you leave. Find out when they want to see her again. If things are not getting better, what is your next step? If she is continuing on Banamine, does she need any ulcerguard type stomach medication? Can they give you written prescriptions for her meds so you can shop the catalogues and get the meds at the cheapest prices?

When I have a sick horse, I think I look like I am coping, but am not. Therefore, I resort to my stressed out mode of operations, which includes a lot of lists.

[Lieslot]

Just throwing this out here, as we're all trying to come up with ideas to help your mare.

When feeding Vit E, the natural from is better absorbed and utilized by the body.
It might also be interesting to supplement with Coenzyme 10.
CoQ10 will enchance the activity of the Vit E in the body, which thins the myelin sheath which covers the spinal cord which in turn is important in nerve messaging, as pressure from bone on the spinal column will interfere with nerve impulses to the limbs. CoQ10 works by improving the function of the mitochondria, important for neurological well functioning.

(ps, I found this out when reading up on PK & Huntington's in humans, and seeing if there's a link to horses & neurological disease) If you're interested I can let you know where to get it at affordable price.

Again more jingles from NJ for Zena!

[HealingHeart]

My heart goes out to you, Dressage Art and Zena. One thing I do know from personal experience, is faith and hope can and will get you both through this experience. My I suggest for stress and clear mind, try Flower Bach, Rescue Remedy for yourself. Add it to your water or a few drops under your tongue.

Contine to talk with Zena and let her know how much you feel for her and that you are with her through this.... Hold and keep a much positive thoughts and future possiblities in your thoughts, they do help both of you. I know, it is easy to write this and harder to do it, especially in this difficult times. Keep that Faith and hope alive....that has gotten you this far, I believe in it..., let this belief help carry you today and forward.

Take care.... and try and laugh even when you don't want to .... it helps the stress release....

[twhs]

Have you checked out the EPM website on Yahoo?
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EPM/
The people there have a wealth of information including the best tests, best treatments including amounts, latest information, research, best people to talk to, and what to do now -- including the best anti-inflamatories to give (banamine being better than bute). They are big on knowing what you are dealing with before beginning treatment.
If you haven't already gone there, please do NOW! They will give you emotional support as well.

I believe there is also a "new" blood test that is as reliable as the spinal tap which would save hauling your mare 2 1/2 hours especially since sometimes they can't get the fluid when trying to performa the spinal tap which is what happened with my gelding at Morven Park, Virginia.

Dr. Martin Furr, at Morven Park, is one of the most knowledgeable vets in the country regarding EPM. He's also both extremely generous with his time and information through email and on the phone. His email address is:
mfurr@vt.edu
You never know, if you sent him an email describing what happened, he might just say (regardless of what your vets have said) that it doesn't sound to him like EPM and have other ideas to explore.

Just my 2 cents. My heart goes out to you. And lots of jingles coming your way.

[Laurierace]

TWHS EPM was ruled out via spinal tap but maybe your information can benefit others.

[pintopiaffe]

I've been following this... I knew a foal who broke his neck BADLY as a just-weanling. He basically dragged an entire round pen a few feet... He was down for several, several weeks, but he recovered AMAZINGLY. His complications were more about the fact that he couldn't even stand at first (bedsores, lymphedema/cellulitis type issues)

So there IS hope.

I would look into every complimentary neutraceutical I could too. I have had two fairly miraculous horse healings and one pretty close to it recovery of my own broken leg and fractured ankle by supplementing for specifics... things like Bromelain for the swelling/inflammation... Horsetail for bone mending... cal/mag/zinc... etc. I am not the one to make the recommendations but there are those out there who know! I can give you one contact if you're interested in it who helped me TREMENDOUSLY with my stallion's injury which should have been at least career ending, if not life-threatening... and instead, he returned to work 6 weeks later, and has continued to progress up the levels...

[sid]

I'd consult Dr. Furr also. I know him well. In fact, it is he who conducted the long term EPM research study in conjunction with OSU that resulted in getting Marquis approved and put on the market. He also was a great help/consult when one of my mares broke her neck.

[Watermark Farm]

Hi, I'm glad to read your mare doesn't have EPM. I'm caring for a friend's Dutch horse right now, and he was diagnosed at Davis with a spinal fracture in his neck, close to his body. He was a 3rd level horse before but could not return to that level of work, however, he does fine at TR/1st and goes on long trail rides. He was very seriously compromised (jumped out of a stall, fractured neck and major SI tear) and will never be the same, but time and good care have allowed him a really good life. I hope your mare will have the same.

Also, for nerve issues, a vet turned me on to homepathic "hypericum perforatum 30c" for my gelding (hind end neuro stuff after a fall resulting in pelvic fracture). It helped my horse to some degree. You buy at Whole Foods in a blue tube made by Boiron. I used to have debilitating sciatica during the first day of my menstrual cycle. One day in the barn, I was feeding and in horrid pain. I spied the tube and thought "why not?" I took 5 pellets, within 3 minutes sciatic pain was gone and 10 months later has never returned. Needless to say, I've been a lot more interested in trying homepathics since then. You might explore this idea. Like many have said, there is MUCH you can do (homeopathy, chinese medicine, acupressure, chiro, nutrition, etc) do support your mare that Davis does not cover. A good local resource is Diana Thompson, Hands on Horse Care in Santa Rosa (www.dianathompson.com). I consult with her all the time. Hope things continue to improve for your girl. ~Katie

[JackieBlue]

Here are the pictures we discussed, DA. The first 2 pics are of horses turned out with splints on. we don't usually recommend this, but we splint a number of horses with DSLD and neurologic conditions that require 'round the clock splinting, so we have to make concessions sometimes. The Dynasplints have hinges, but they can be tensioned enough to prevent knuckling. As I said, we have many patients who wear splints 24/7. Zena may only need support when she's outside of her stall, but she may feel better/more confident if supported and kept from knuckling all the time. Only she can tell you what she needs. :sadsmile:

[sjdressage]

Not sure if this helps but I owned a horse that recovered and competed after TWO neurological problems.

He was one of the very first surgically corrected wobblers. He had OCD in his neck in C6/C7 and was falling down. They fused the vertebrae and we rehabbed him. He ended up being a very nice hunter and did dressage up to 4th level. He also did tempis. He just had slight circumduction in his right hind that was residual damage.

The same horse came down with EPM. It looked like colic so we treated it that way but he was acting drunk the next morning. The vet came right out and treated him for EPM without even waiting for the test. He was better immediately and was perfect in a few days so it was clearly the issue. We treated him with the medicine for 2months and never had another symptom. and he spent years as a lower level school master after that.

Despite his bad luck, he had a happy productive life. So, you never know.....

[Lieslot]

Interesting Jackie Blue, thx for those pictures, I had never heard of that but interesting to know these exist.

[JackieBlue]

I'm always happy to share, Lieslot. What I'd told DA in a pm, to which I couldn't attach photos, was that our hinged splints may very well keep Zena from knuckling. I hadn't piped in right from the get go aside from offering condolenses and prayers because the first moments-days of a horse acclimating to neurologic defecit can be pretty dicey and to offer too much in the way of support may just set the horse up for further injury. At this point, though, a pair of Dynasplints may be just what Zena needs to walk better and stay pain free in her hind end. As I've said, the splints are hinged, so unless she requires fetlock immobilization we would fit Zena with splints that still allow her to move and use her fetlocks fairly normally while preventing them from knuckling forward.

Dressage Art (and anyone else), if you have further questions feel free to email me directly:
mflynn@dynasplint.com

[Quinn]

JackieBlue, very encouraged to hear your splints may work for Zena.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

[Dressage Art]

the first moments-days of a horse acclimating to neurologic defecit can be pretty dicey and to offer too much in the way of support may just set the horse up for further injury.Yes, the vet told me to stay put for now with just xtra large leg wraps that can go down all the way to the ground and take them off every day to see how she is doing. But I'll be doing vet re-check in 3 weeks, so if she will be better, I would love to have a pair of Dynasplints.

a pair of Dynasplints may be just what Zena needs to walk better and stay pain free in her hind end.I emailed your company, but didn't get the email back yet. Can you please tell me how easy it is to take them off and put them back on?

Thank you to everybody for support/thinking about Zena in that hard time for her.

[Ambrey]

I don't know how I missed this thread- DA, what bad news :( I'm so sorry you're going through this!

[Simkie]

Now, this neck joint called "fecet" has a very clear rectangular fracture, it almost looks like a Lego peace got separated from that joint. If I just can push it right back in - it'll be great! This is in her c7 - the very last joint that hides in horse's shoulders. To me it didn't look like it was "floating bone fragments" like vet described at first - it looks like a rectangular chunk of a joint separated. This is also a quite tricky "chunk" or how they call it a "bone fragment": it's the very top layer of the bone that is arthritic in nature that is separated - seems that arthritis made that joint more enlarged and more fragile and it/that just snapped off the tip of the joint = Now that "popped out" bone fragment is pushing on the spinal nerve/cord and making it inflamed. The vets are conserned that if it will grow back, it can also develop even larger arthritic bone mass around it and that mass can pinch the nerve even more...

Facet joint. There's one on each side. This is the joint we injected with Blush. She does have significant arthritis and spurring between C6 and C7.

Have you injected the neck? Reducing the inflammation in the area will reduce the amount of arthritis formed.

Are you planning a myelogram?

[foggybok]

She is a lovely mare, you two make a beautiful pair.

Had a TB with a similar chunk at C5-6. I think he did it when he flipped in the gate at the track before I got him. He ended up OK for light riding, but he didn't have as severe neuro signs (in fact when on of the top neuro guys in the country saw him, he said he'd jump him, I thought he was crazy...)

I hope she makes some positive recovery for you.

[marta]

more jingles.

i find it so upsetting that these guys are so fragile. trip over a cavaletti seems so innocuous...

[JackieBlue]

Yes, the vet told me to stay put for now with just xtra large leg wraps that can go down all the way to the ground and take them off every day to see how she is doing. But I'll be doing vet re-check in 3 weeks, so if she will be better, I would love to have a pair of Dynasplints.

I emailed your company, but didn't get the email back yet. Can you please tell me how easy it is to take them off and put them back on?

Thank you to everybody for support/thinking about Zena in that hard time for her.

The splints apply very simply with a few velcro straps, similar to applying a splint boot. On a large, mature horse like Zena with diminished hind end control I would recommend using an adhesive on the lower portion of the splint to tape it to her toe and prevent shifting. My favorite "adhesive" for this purpose is...drum roll, please...DUCT TAPE!! What else? :D

I'm so sorry that she has such a grave injury, but I'm thrilled that she's home with you and happy to be there. 'Still jingling for a speedy and miraculous recovery!

[BaroquePony]

i find it so upsetting that these guys are so fragile. trip over a cavaletti seems so innocuous...

Maybe I missed something ... I though when she tripped over the cavaletti she fell and came up lame on both fronts (prior to the decision to inject both front bursa) .. and that was after a previous diagnosis that she had degenerative naviclar disease and her riding career was going to be sketchy. I don't really consider that innocuous, but what do I know?

[dutchfan]

Maybe I missed something ... I though when she tripped over the cavaletti she fell and came up lame on both fronts (prior to the decision to inject both front bursa) .. and that was after a previous diagnosis that she had degenerative naviclar disease and her riding career was going to be sketchy. I don't really consider that innocuous, but what do I know?
Agreed. The bone fragment in the neck is from arthritis in the neck. Bone degenerated due to the arthritis and now a piece of it is broken off. This process is years in the making (much like navicular). So unfortunately for DA this situation was a ticking time bomb that has now gone off. :(

[AKB]

It is hard to deal with the unknown. At least with navicular, there are tried and true treatments that work for many horses. The neck arthritis is a different ball game. All you can do is to keep in touch with the people at Davis, and keep searching the internet to see if anyone, any where else, has new ideas. Don't chastise yourself about not starting Adequan and Legend earlier. I am not aware that Adequan and Legend have any disease modifying effect in terms of preventing the bone changes of arthritis. If anyone here knows of any studies about this, I think many of us would like to see them.

You are doing everything you can for Zena. Keep up your hard work. The rest of her recovery is out of your hands.

[dutchfan]

Good points AKB. Adequan only has clinical trial data to show that it helps in building/protecting CARTILAGE but not bone itself. It does have inflammation/pain relieving qualities as well according to its FDA label.It also is only approved and tested in knee and hock damaged horses.

[Dressage Art]

And what about Legend? I'm wondering if I should just continue to doing weekly Legend and adequan short for the next 2 months to give her the best chance that she can have. Will that help with inflammation?

Baroque Pony, Zena was diagnosed with a mild Navicular bone changes when she was just 2nd level and since then we moved up soundly to PSG . There are many horses who have a mild navicular bone changes on their x-rays and that doesnt mean much. Some horses are fine with them, others are affected. I spend a lot of money to diagnose a grade 1 floating lameness and the only thing that vets found were the mild navicular changes that were probably traumatic in nature (per vet), not chronic. Since then I changed farriers and as I already said, she progressed up to PSG just fine.

Dutchfan, while Zena has some changes in her neck, they are fairly in the normal range of what to be expected of her age at 11 years old. Meaning that some horses will show similar changes in their necks on x-rays at that age. UC Davis vets do not think as you say "The bone fragment in the neck is from arthritis in the neck."

Davis vets still say that they can not say for sure what is the reason for her knuckle hind legs, since arthritis or bone fragment doesn’t bother her at all in her neck. I asked again vets if they do have idea what she has, the answer was: we just don't see many horses who knuckle over so much and so sudden, she is a very interesting case, but we do know that it is neuro related... The 2 small animal clinic Davis vets looked at her and confirmed that the neck bone fragment that causing the spince inflamation is probably a good guess.

So vets gave Zena a Power Pack to use in case she is knuckling from worms in her spine - so it also can be worms as well, even she is on the daily de-wormer

Its an unknown situation. It's still just a guess. Even after all the tests and the week at UC Davis.

[slc2]

This is very sad news. I hope the horse can become comfortable and happy again.

[Dressage Art]

Hi, I'm glad to read your mare doesn't have EPM. I'm caring for a friend's Dutch horse right now, and he was diagnosed at Davis with a spinal fracture in his neck, close to his body. He was a 3rd level horse before but could not return to that level of work, however, he does fine at TR/1st and goes on long trail rides. He was very seriously compromised (jumped out of a stall, fractured neck and major SI tear) and will never be the same, but time and good care have allowed him a really good life. I hope your mare will have the same.

Also, for nerve issues, a vet turned me on to homepathic "hypericum perforatum 30c" for my gelding (hind end neuro stuff after a fall resulting in pelvic fracture). It helped my horse to some degree. You buy at Whole Foods in a blue tube made by Boiron. I used to have debilitating sciatica during the first day of my menstrual cycle. One day in the barn, I was feeding and in horrid pain. I spied the tube and thought "why not?" I took 5 pellets, within 3 minutes sciatic pain was gone and 10 months later has never returned. Needless to say, I've been a lot more interested in trying homepathics since then. You might explore this idea. Like many have said, there is MUCH you can do (homeopathy, chinese medicine, acupressure, chiro, nutrition, etc) do support your mare that Davis does not cover. A good local resource is Diana Thompson, Hands on Horse Care in Santa Rosa (www.dianathompson.com). I consult with her all the time. Hope things continue to improve for your girl. ~KatieThank you for that information. That sounds very much like Zena's case. I would love to talk with the owner (you?) of that horse and see how re-hab was done. I would love if Zena can recover to the point of being somebody's schoolmaster - she is so easy to ride compared to many horses - since she finds it so easy to do lower level dressage, she can do it with her eyes closed. Her tempi changes and single flying changes are straight and easy. I really should post her 5 flying changes, tempis across the diagonal (PSG level)- I have a video of her doing them in July before her fall over cavalletti.. But that is if I can re-hab her and bring her back to comfortable riding level.

[Quinn]

I would love to see the video!

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

[dutchfan]

I would probably try the adequan every 4 days route for the next several months if your pocket book can handle it.
When you read the official information on adequan it only lasts 96 hours actively in the body - so that is why the every 4 days thing....

It seems like you definately have a tough one here. The neck arthritis isn't going to go away - but will probably continue to follow its course and get worse over time. So that can for sure cause pain.
Then you have the bone chip sitting right in the middle of where it shouldn't be sitting - and is pressing on the spinal cord (if I am reading your postings correctly?). And unless it comes out surgicaly, it isn't likely to shift and get out of the way is it?. I guess it could shift and actually make things worse as well????

Is your hope to get her comfortable, rehab her and then sell/place her into a lower level schoolmaster home?
That would be tough IMHO since the chip is in there and you don't know what it will do next?

You certainly have my sympathies.
Perhaps you can just retire her to a pasture situation?

[tpup]

Ask your vet about Previcox. My horse is arthritic and it has made a world of difference. Some of his is in his neck, most in his hocks. I do believe it helps with inflammation. I'm sorry about her diagnosis and hope you find a good remedy for her!

[Dressage Art]

It seems like you definately have a tough one here. The neck arthritis isn't going to go away - but will probably continue to follow its course and get worse over time. So that can for sure cause pain.
Then you have the bone chip sitting right in the middle of where it shouldn't be sitting - and is pressing on the spinal cord (if I am reading your postings correctly?). And unless it comes out surgicaly, it isn't likely to shift and get out of the way is it?. I guess it could shift and actually make things worse as well????

Is your hope to get her comfortable, rehab her and then sell/place her into a lower level schoolmaster home?
That would be tough IMHO since the chip is in there and you don't know what it will do next?

You certainly have my sympathies.
Perhaps you can just retire her to a pasture situation?

While Zena has some signs of arthritis in her neck, it is on a fairly normal range for the age of an 11 years old horse. She is very, very flexible in her neck now and can easily scratch her ears with her hind legs and do the full carrot stretches - so the arthritic changes that she has now, doesn't affect her much.

It doesn’t seem that the bone chip that is pressing on her spinal cord (the bone chip is on the outside) but the inflammation from that bone chip and the inflammation in her whole spinal cord may be causing her neuro symptoms. The chip is not floating and I doubt that it will/can move since it's still attached with 1 side to the bone. It's sitting on the right side of her spine to the outside of the spinal cord = not next to it. (I'll post her X-ray as soon as I'll get them from Davis next week) Zena doesnt have OCD lesions, spurring, or the spinal cord narrowing. She doesnt have wobbles or EPM.

Even after all the tests and the week at UC Davis no vets can tell me what is casing Zena to knuckle in her hind legs. They also can’t tell me what her prognosis will be. They say she can get worse, stay the same, or recover. It’s still just a guess. May be it's spine worms - nobody knows!

Right now I'm ready for Zena to be retired in the pasture if she will stay the same, if she will get worse and be in pain = I'll have to let her go to horse heaven. If she can get better and with time I can rehab her, I would love to find her a new home where she can be useful and teach somebody = this mare loves to work: I hold the bridle and she puts her head in to it, then closes her eyes and opens her mouth for the bit!!! She can make somebody a very happy rider = even if it'll be for a short time. I myself had a PSG schoolmaster who was 23 years old when I got him, he lasted for 3 years, but I learned a LOT from him riding him on Training/1st Level and it was really worth it to have him for me. Of course she will need to be cleared up with the vet and I would probably ride her myself for about a year to make sure that she can hold before I will consider finding her a new home... or may be I'll just lease her out and keep her... it'll be very difficult to let her go anywhere, but I would just hate to see her PSG knowledge go to waste!

I can not see myself asking Zena to train at PSG level again, since the neck has to be elevated and collected quite a bit, so IF she will come back and can be a safe riding horse, I assume that she'll have to be ridden in more open and comfortable frame (?) rather than be training at PSG/showing 4th level again.

[McVillesMom]

I hesitate to suggest it, just because I've read here about some of the potential issues with it, but have you asked about or have the vets mentioned Tildren? If they are concerned that progression of her arthritis may be a serious issue, it might be worth considering.

[Dressage Art]

Yes, I asked about Tilden, but it helps only with navicular and not with neck arthritis.

[dutchfan]

.

Now, this neck joint called "fecet" has a very clear rectangular fracture, it almost looks like a Lego peace got separated from that joint. To me it didn't look like it was "floating bone fragments" like vet described at first - it looks like a rectangular chunk of a joint separated. This is also a quite tricky "chunk" or how they call it a "bone fragment": it's the very top layer of the bone that is arthritic in nature that is separated - seems that arthritis made that joint more enlarged and more fragile and it/that just snapped off the tip of the joint = Now that "popped out" bone fragment is pushing on the spinal nerve/cord and making it inflamed. .

Sorry DA - i thought from this post that there was an actual floating/separated fragment since you described it that way,and that the fragment itself was pushing on the spinal cord since you said it was above.

But now you think that general inflammation from the chip is causing the spinal cord pressure but not the chip itself pressing?
If that is the case then for sure maybe time and anti-inflammatories can reduce the swelling for now. But if it is the chip itself - that would worry me for sure as I am sure it is worrying you!

Tildren would be interesting as well but probably like the Adequan situation - no testing of it (Tildren) in anything other than navicular....

Will keep my fingers crossed for you!

[Dressage Art]

but now you think that general inflammation from the chip is causing the spinal cord pressure but not the chip itself pressing?
If that is the case then for sure maybe time and anti-inflammatories can reduce the swelling for now. But if it is the chip itself - that would worry me for sure as I am sure it is worrying you!


Honestly I was quite confused myself ... shoot, I'm still is confused and trying to read up as much as I can and understand it. The X-rays didn't look like a "bone fragment" was floating, it didnt even look like a bone fragment, but a tiny fracture. It's hard to describe, but I'll post the X-rays as soon as I'll get them. I'll also will post Zena walking after the fall. I was able to caught only one "knuckle" over on tape, but still that'll give you some real idea how that looks.

And no, the bone chip is not pushing on the spinal cord. The bone fragment is on the opposite side from the spinal cord, on the outer of the spine-bone-joint. But we still dont know why the spinal cord has some inflamation in it - may be its worms, may be its the inflammation from the bone fragment - there is no way for vets to find out. What we know is that she doesnt have OCD lesions or spinal cord narrowing or wobbles.

I wasn't given a diagnosis, just several possible causes that all or none can be the cause.

[Simkie]

There is plenty of research around bisphosphonate use in people and skeletal/spinal osteoporosis. Just because Tildren has only been used in navicular syndrome horses doesn't mean there isn't SOME research regarding bisphosphonate use and spinal lesions.

Bone lysis is not really arthritis. You have some sort of bone wasting leading to fragile bone. Arthritis is *extra* bone. I have to wonder if your mare has some sort of odd disease causing bone lysis.

I suspect that Legend and Adequan may help, but will do very little to bring the massive inflammation in your horse under control. Much like a thimbleful of water on a campfire.

If you really want to get the inflammation under control (and you should, especially since spinal cord damage WILL NOT repair. The longer the inflammation is allowed to impinge the cord, the more you risk very permanent damage.) please push your vets to inject the neck and get the horse on a course of anti-inflammitories. I would be pushing for a course of systemic steroids in addition to the c-spine injections, personally.

[dutchfan]

I think Simkie is on the right track with the getting the inflammation under control agressively.

Simkie - I am just trying to increase my knowledge here as well- so this is my understanding of arthritis - let me know where I am going off course:
1) loss of joint lubrication and cartiledge
2) this causes bone on bone rubbing
3) the bone rubbing causes bone iritation which causes extra bone to be made (aka ringbone if in the pasterns or bone spurs else where like on hocks or stifles)
4)sometimes enough extra bone is made so the joint actually "Fuses" since there is no longer space between the bones - right???

In Zena's case couldn't the extra bone "spur" (since she has signs of arthritis and extra bone/loss of cartiledge) have been accidentally broken off from her falling down over the cavaletti? So the "chip" or "spur" is not from bone lysis but broke off from the extra bone aka arthritis that has been forming?

[Ambrey]

I don't know from horse spines, but I do know in human spines sometimes an injury initiates the arthritis, so sometimes there can be a "chicken/egg" question.

[Simkie]

IS there any evidence of arthritis? Any spurring or lipping or anything? I did not see mention of this at all.

While I suppose it's possible that the bone is normal and the horse just stepped wrong (shit happens!), horses trip over cavaletti all the time without causing a c-spine fracture. The fact this horse's neck just spontaneously fractured without massive trauma is concerning. Quite concerning. Those bones are BIG, and there's a lot of muscle protecting them...especially C6/C7, which is directly in front of the point of the shoulder.

Arthritis generally starts with inflammation. The inflammation can be due to a fracture, or due to wear, or due to a ligament/tendon issue, or due to infection. The body responds to the inflammation by laying down new bone. The better you can control the inflammation, they less arthritis you're going to have.

[Dressage Art]

please push your vets to inject the neck and get the horse on a course of anti-inflammitories. I would be pushing for a course of systemic steroids in addition to the c-spine injections, personally.

Her neck was already injected on Friday = as soon as we got the nogative EPM results back. she is also on the 750ml of Banamine 2 times per day and loaded with Legend

[Dressage Art]

IS there any evidence of arthritis? Any spurring or lipping or anything? I did not see mention of this at all.

While I suppose it's possible that the bone is normal and the horse just stepped wrong (shit happens!), horses trip over cavaletti all the time without causing a c-spine fracture. The fact this horse's neck just spontaneously fractured without massive trauma is concerning. Quite concerning. Those bones are BIG, and there's a lot of muscle protecting them...especially C6/C7, which is directly in front of the point of the shoulder.This is from the UC Davis report that refers to arthritis of 2 joints in Zena's neck:
Remodeling along c5-6 facet joint and the c6-7 facet joint was noted with the facets being enlarged and irregular. That was the reference to the arthritis, but again Davis vets still say that they can not say for sure what is the reason for her knuckle hind legs, since arthritis or bone fragment doesn’t bother her at all in her neck. I asked again vets if they do have idea what she has, the answer was: we just don't see many horses who knuckle over so much and so sudden, she is a very interesting case, but we do know if it is neuro related... But the c6-7 gets arthritis first and bone does become "softer" thus more fragile. Zena doesnt have any spurring or lipping or anything...

Also, let’s not forget that when I bought Zena she uses to rear up about dozen times per each ride. She reared up in the straight load trailer, caught herself in the feeder. she also flipped over the stall door that she decided to jump one day seeing her heard buddies walked away from her (she took off the stall door and landed on her back in the dirt isle) That was all when she was just 5 years old and a wild thing that use to live in the pasture... now I know what you are thinking... why I even bother buying her? Well, life lead me to her (same barn) and it was frustrating for me to see her being whipped and her mouth ripped open to blood and I personally saw her potential and she touched my heart. It was a very rough route for both of us, but I don't regret it. I'm happy that she is in my life and I want her in my life. This is my 2nd horse that I trained to PSG from the get go and shown at 4th level (yet AGAIN no showing PSG for me)- nothing new at that front, but her personality is just unique and touched my heart.

[grayarabpony]

I am sorry you and your mare are going through this -- it sounds like you and the vets are doing everything possible to help her -- jingling for a good recovery.

[dutchfan]

This is from the UC Davis report that refers to arthritis of 2 joints in Zena's neck: It's actually the c6-7 that gets arthritis first and bone becomes "softer" thus more fragile.

Also, let’s not forget that when I bought Zena she uses to rear up about dozen times per each ride. She reared up in the straight load trailer, caught herself in the feeder. she also flipped over the stall door that she decided to jump one day seeing her heard buddies walked away from her (she took off the stall door and landed on her back in the dirt isle) .


I wonder if the rearing was due to pain in her neck? I have known that in other horses - neck pain/arthritis causing rearing.

Or maybe when she flipped over several years ago she hurt her neck that caused the arthritis to start? sometimes arthritis is trauma induced I have read.

[Simkie]

Her neck was already injected on Friday = as soon as we got the nogative EPM results back. she is also on the 750ml of Banamine 2 times per day and loaded with Legend

750mL of banamine? Nearly a liter? Perhaps you mean 7.5 mL? Usual dose is 1.1 mL/100 lbs, BID, IIRC.

And there has been no improvement of the knuckling following the c spine injections and banamine? What did they use on the neck? Trimacinolone or Methylprednisolone? Did they confirm on the ultrasound that the needle was in the joint space and the steroid was delivered? I would've expected near immediate results with triamcinolone and results within 3 days or so with methylprednisolone. No results is concerning :(

[Dressage Art]

I wonder if the rearing was due to pain in her neck? I have known that in other horses - neck pain/arthritis causing rearing.

Or maybe when she flipped over several years ago she hurt her neck that caused the arthritis to start? sometimes arthritis is trauma induced I have read.Vets call her "a very interesting case" and dont have much clue what is going on... but I dont think she reared from the pain issues at 5 years old. She stopped doing it with the correct training. She is 11 years old now and didnt rear up in a long time. Also, she was doing an effortless 5 tempi changes and all PSG work just before the injury = she would off shown some signs of neck arthritis pain right before the injury... dont you think? Yet it happened so sudden!

But who knows if early rearing and flipping over started some traumatic in nature arthritis in her neck... it all very confusing. Her navicular is traumatic in nature, so who knows, may be her neck fracture is also traumatic/acute in nature?

[Dressage Art]

750mL of banamine? Nearly a liter? Perhaps you mean 7.5 mL? Usual dose is 1.1 mL/100 lbs, BID, IIRC.

And there has been no improvement of the knuckling following the c spine injections and banamine? What did they use on the neck? Trimacinolone or Methylprednisolone? Did they confirm on the ultrasound that the needle was in the joint space and the steroid was delivered? I would've expected near immediate results with triamcinolone and results within 3 days or so with methylprednisolone. No results is concerning :(

"750 lb dose of banamine twice per day" - it's a banamine tube with 3000 total and I give 750 each time 2 times per day. Yes, the needle was all the way in and it's was " a perfect text-book injection".

Unfortunately she is not better, she "knuckled" over as soon as I took her leg wraps off and re-opened the wound on the front of her fetlock even on the soft footing. Then she was standing with her hind legs really close together and it was quite difficult to wrap her legs today. Now a good day today.

[Dressage Art]

This is the video of Zena at the evening of the day Zena fell to her knees on the trail ride and started to "knuckle" over on the front of her fetlocks. If you remember, UC Davis vet told me to go check on her and if she is worse bring her over that evening, but if she is OK, bring her in the morning. And at the evening it was better and I wasn't able to make her knuckle over. Unfortunately at the morning she was knuckling over just walking in her stall.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjs1Iqr3sBg

[AKB]

How frustrating to have her open up the cut on her fetlock again. Perhaps she could spend part of each day in traditional wraps and part of the day in some sort of a splint. Walking on her fetlocks can't be good for her tendons. Did the vets at Davis say how long it should be before you will know if the injections are helping?

[Dressage Art]

This is the video of Zena coming home from UC Davis Vet Hospital after spending 6 days there. Unfortunately, her knuckling over became worse and she needed an extra large wraps wrapped around her hind legs to prevent knuckling. B/c of the open skin deep wounds on the front of her fetlocks, at this time the soft wraps that can be changed daily is the best option. Zena does knuckle over as soon as the wrap comes of her Right hind leg. The bone fracture is on the right side and she doesn’t even allow me to brush her on the right side of her spine. The left side is fine for brushing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkAQlLMGKEU

[Dressage Art]

Did the vets at Davis say how long it should be before you will know if the injections are helping?re-check is in 3 weeks, but I read that at times injections can help with in 3 days... but not for Zena... she is not better.

[AKB]

Zena looks completely happy and comfortable in the video. I could see where she started to knuckle over and then caught herself. The wraps look like they work really well. I don't know if they always work that well, but in the video they seemed to protect her nicely.

[Dressage Art]

yes, she is quite capable in those wraps so far. I have a video of her actual knuckle over - but it's a very large file from UC Davis visit and I'll need to cut it to be able to post it.

[AKB]

It would be great if you could post the video with the knuckling over for all of our education. My (limited) understanding is that when you see knuckling over, it usually means neurological problems, so it is good for all of us to recognize it.

You may want to start looking into your options if the injections are not effective. I think Virginia Tech in Blacksburg does the basket surgeries. It would be interesting to see if they have published their results. I don't know if Davis does a lot of them, and if they are the authorities on the surgery on the West Coast. I don't know what your other options are.

Sometimes, I think our horses have had every horse ailment that is possible. Then, I look at COTH and realize there are many illnesses and lamenesses that we have not had! I am never happy when we have an "interesting case."

[blackstallion2]

still jingling for Zena ! :yes:
It takes time for neurological issues to heal. I think you are doing everything you can and now you have to give her the time to heal. Keeping her from doing collateral damage to her legs or stressing out due to the confinement will certainly be a challenge. But it doesn't sound like there is any other road to take. No quick fix when spinal injuries are involved.

I know she is EPM free, but just for comparison, my filly was treated for EPM for 6 months. It was another year of slow steady ground work and gymnastics to regain balance and coordination. Even though the inflammation was gone, the nerves still had a lot of healing and rebuilding to do.

[Dressage Art]

This is the video of Zena knuckling over. As soon as the wraps are taken off from her right hind leg and she needs to move = the right hind knuckles over. Every time the same way. Every time tears my heart open. This is at UC Davis they were showing me how to wrap her legs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAmkReyfNLo

[Debbie]

Such a lovely mare. I'm so sorry about her injury and jingling that she starts to recover soon.

[lovemyoldguy]

DA, I couldn't get past the first 30 seconds of that video. I am so very sorry that you've had to witness this happening to your lovely mare. You both are in my thoughts and prayers!

[AKB]

DA, thank you for posting the videos.

[twofatponies]

I so hope she recovers soon. She looks like a wonderful horse. Best wishes!

[thatmoody]

DA, that was very hard to watch. There is just something about neurological symptoms in a horse that are very disturbing - my gelding is similar (he has nerve impingement further in his back, but doesn't knuckle - he just doesn't have great control over his hind legs). When he swings his hind legs out when he turns and you can tell it just "isn't right," it's very sad. The vitamin E (Elevate) has been somewhat helpful for him, though, although it did take some time to help. He's on every antioxidant known to man, just to keep his as a pasture pet, and every so often I have to reevaluate whether it's worth it or not.

[Dressage Art]

I have to reevaluate whether it's worth it or not.

I hear you, I do not want to keep the horse in pain, but I want to give her a chance to recover IF she can recover. If the things will get worse (as I understand) she will start knuckling even in wraps and eventually just dragging her hind leg(s) = I'll just have to let her go then. May be I'm in denial, but for now I'm still hoping that she can recover.

[Simkie]

Yikes. Wow. That is scary.

Have you seen any improvement at all?

[Dressage Art]

Yikes. Wow. That is scary.

Have you seen any improvement at all?

No, nothing yet. She still knuckles and she still doesn't let me brush her right side of her neck/back. Otherwise she is happy and begs for carrots.

[Ambrey]

No, nothing yet. She still knuckles and she still doesn't let me brush her right side of her neck/back. Otherwise she is happy and begs for carrots.

:(

Hoping for improvement. Are horses like people? Sometimes it takes several injections for improvement to be noted, I'm told.

[marta]

that video is heartbreaking. i only managed to watch the first 'knuckling' episode and had to stop. i'm so sorry for both of you.

i also didn't realize until now that she's knuckling forward. i thought that her suspensory mechanism was giving out causing her fetlock to drop to the ground. not that it woudl be any better.

keeping you both in my thoughts.

[Dressage Art]

Are horses like people? Sometimes it takes several injections for improvement to be noted, I'm told.That is what I'm wondering myself now. Davis vet didn't suggest any more injections, but for people they are done in 3s and every week? I emailed my Davis vet yesterday, but still didn't get the response from her if I should bring Zena back for more neck injections... I'm not very impressed with UC Davis "responsiveness". It takes numerous tries thru the whole day to reach UC Davis vet on the phone and emails take even longer. You would think for the amount of $ that I spend there, they would at least can call back or email back in the SAME day.

Before that I use to go to Pioneer Equine Hospital and they are wonderful with communicating with me. I hoped that UC Davis would be at least the same responsive-wise... it's frustrating to wait for the phone call or email for a couple of days...

[Dressage Art]

i also didn't realize until now that she's knuckling forward. i thought that her suspensory mechanism was giving out causing her fetlock to drop to the ground. not that it woudl be any better.Amazingly, her soft tissue so far didn't sustain any damage according to the UC Davis surgeon... she knuckles over b/c she can't control her hoof, down from the fetlock, b/c her nerves are not firing properly to her brain. She doesn't feel that she is putting her leg incorrectly and then she is caught with surprise standing on the front of the fetlock... and then she corrects herself.

The worse case for that is when horses can't control their hind leg and ended up "dragging" it.

PS: we did discover at 2nd opinion that she has a serious sesamoid ligament injury that also causes knuckling on the fetlock. How did Davis vets missed that, I do not know!

[Simkie]

Before that I use to go to Pioneer Equine Hospital and they are wonderful with communicating with me. I hoped that UC Davis would be at least the same responsive-wise... it's frustrating to wait for the phone call or email for a couple of days...

Any vet with an ultrasound and a reasonable amount of skill should be able to inject her neck. If Pioneer is more responsive, call them.

Injecting again may or may not be advisable. What was the neck injected WITH? Triamcinolone works quicker than methylprednisolone, but doesn't last as long. If they used methylprednisolone, it's probably not worth going back in...unless they did not deliver the drug to the correct area. Did they confirm delivery of the drug to the facet joint space?

If they didn't use steroid--if they used HA or Adequan--get someone (anyone!) to get some steroid into that joint space asap.

[Dressage Art]

What was the neck injected WITH? Triamcinolone works quicker than methylprednisolone, but doesn't last as long. If they used methylprednisolone, it's probably not worth going back in...unless they did not deliver the drug to the correct area. Did they confirm delivery of the drug to the facet joint space?

If they didn't use steroid--if they used HA or Adequan--get someone (anyone!) to get some steroid into that joint space asap.

There is no listing of it on any of the discharges papers or billing. It just stated as neck injection with steroids. I also asked that question and yet to hear the answer for that. Frustrating. They did tell me what they are injecting it with verbally, but I can't retain all of new medical terms that I'm not familiar with.

Thank you for your ideas.

How soon did you see the changes from neck injection on your horse?

[Simkie]

That's frustrating about the billing. My vets always break everything out...so for neck injections, I'd see the ultrasound charge, the steroid charge, the antibiotic charge, the sedation charge, the service charge, etc.

I saw a change with Blush within a few days. Triamcinolone takes effect within a day or so, IIRC. Methylprednisolone takes a few days, but not more than three. We used triamcinolone. Blush does not tolerate methylprednisolone IA.

With no improvement, I would be concerned about a couple things: a) that they might have missed the joint space entirely or b) that there's actual spinal cord damage that will not repair.

If you'd like to speak with my vet who handled Blush's injections (and the whole diagnosis that lead to injections) I would be happy to give you her number. She might be able to offer insight into your horse's case, and I'm sure she knows people at Davis.

[Dressage Art]

Spoke with UC Davis vet. Injecting again is not advisable. Neck was injected with Triamcinolone and it's concerning that in 3 days we didn't see any improvement.

[outofthebox]

I am sorry if this has already been answered, but have you considered getting an MRI of her neck to get a detailed look at the spinal cord to see exactly what you are dealing with? Believe me, even digital xrays rarely tell the whole story.

[thatmoody]

Ugh, yes, we saw improvement (some) but not enough for him to ever be ridden. But he's not regressing, so we just reevaluate him from time to time. Yup, he's still a pasture pet. Nope, he's not worse - he can still canter, even - he's just a bit unsteady and can't seem to tell where his back feet are. I watch him like a hawk though, and am just waiting for that "sign." He doesn't have pain and doesn't knuckle like that though. He drags a little in the back and wobbles when he turns, and he had to be tranqued to get his feet done. Other than that, he plays with his babies and enjoys the pasture.

I'm hoping at least the same for Zena...

[Simkie]

I am sorry if this has already been answered, but have you considered getting an MRI of her neck to get a detailed look at the spinal cord to see exactly what you are dealing with? Believe me, even digital xrays rarely tell the whole story.

Oh, an MRI would be AWESOME!

A myelogram would also be very diagnostic.

Both have the problem of requiring to lay the horse down and then hoist her to wherever she has to go. I'm really not sure that would be advisable. Have you seen how they do that? It scares the hell out of me with horses that AREN'T neurologically compromised. :-/

DA, at least you now know what went into her neck. They did use an ultrasound to guide the needle, yes?

Have you thought about asking them about systemic steroids? They're not without risk but might be incredibly useful to further reduce inflammation. You may be dealing with actual spinal cord area inflammation or just general spinal AREA inflammation--the later may be compromising nerve roots exiting the spinal cord, rather than the actual spinal cord. Those nerves WILL repair...slowly...

[Dressage Art]

Additional diagnostics like MRI was suggested only if I'll do the surgery and I decided against surgery, since she is not a good candidate for surgery + it's promising only to improve my mare 1 neuro level up + with a full year of a very painful recovery + a big chance of braking a hip when horse will wake up from surgery and so on and so fourth. Other than basket surgery and neck injections - there is absolutely nothing else that can be done according to vets.

When Zena was diagnosed with navicular, I also choose not to do diagnostic MRI, since it can only pinpoint the exact area, but it will not get me any closer to the treatment itself = since treatment was the same regardless = injections to the navicular bursa + coffin joints = and hope for the best. Kind off the same thing as now... but then I knew that I can retire her and she could be pasture sound. Now I don't know if she can be even pasture sound and vets don't know that either. We'll have to see how she is doing in 3 weeks and then in another 6 weeks = if she will stop knuckling in 10 weeks - then I can put her in the pasture for 4-6 months. If she will be able to stay sound, after that - then I can bring her back to the barn and start the re-hab slowly bringing her back to the full riding after 1 full year since the accident. It takes up to 2 years to fully recover from the neuro.

It can be a long time of wait and see game and this is the BEST scenario as well.