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View Full Version : OTTB critique - potential project horse



JCIbarra
Sep. 11, 2009, 01:08 PM
This guy is a 2 y.o. 16 hd gelding that I'm thinking of getting as my next project horse. What do you think?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v625/JCIbarra/Pancho3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v625/JCIbarra/Pancho1.jpg

Threedaydream
Sep. 11, 2009, 01:11 PM
Wow! I would buy him!

TrotTrotPumpkn
Sep. 11, 2009, 01:12 PM
The only thing I don't love is his throatlatch, but I really like him. I bet he grows more too.

tBHj
Sep. 11, 2009, 01:13 PM
I'm not a confirmation expert but...

He looks straight in the stifles, and in those pictures his neck looks a little bit short. Other then that he looks like a handsome lad.

Petstorejunkie
Sep. 11, 2009, 01:19 PM
A wee bum high, and straight through the hind leg (some of this looks to be from the way he's standing or heel height, in on a blackberry so its hard to tell) other than that I like him

BK to some
Sep. 11, 2009, 01:31 PM
he's a little bit goose-rumped. sort of high at the croup but low tail head placement. smallish hocks, thick in the throat latch,

Hauwse
Sep. 11, 2009, 02:01 PM
I guess it depends on what your discipline(s) is/are.

Do not see any glaring conformation flaws, though I would like to see him head on, and from behind.

He is only 2 so, if it is not just the picture, his being a little downhill will change. For me, which is not really a flaw in his case, more a personal preference, is that I like a lot more in front of me, and though his neck is not short, I would prefer more neck. I would like to see bigger, flatter hocks, a little more gaskin, a slightly lower stifle, which I guess all together equates to a little more angle in his hind end, as he is just a little camped out.

All that being said he seems to still have a fair bit of growing to do so he could change a bit. One thing I would look at though, is with him being so young, he is looking a little like a mature horse in his chest, and I may be a little concerned that he will get a little heavy in front.

Nothing glaring though, and though you can see things in a horses conformation, you still really need to see them move to be able to tell whether waht you see is true.

NeverEnd
Sep. 11, 2009, 02:01 PM
Drool! And he has a lot more growing and filling out to do! Go for it!

Coppers mom
Sep. 11, 2009, 05:37 PM
I guess it depends on what your discipline(s) is/are.

Do not see any glaring conformation flaws, though I would like to see him head on, and from behind.

He is only 2 so, if it is not just the picture, his being a little downhill will change. For me, which is not really a flaw in his case, more a personal preference, is that I like a lot more in front of me, and though his neck is not short, I would prefer more neck. I would like to see bigger, flatter hocks, a little more gaskin, a slightly lower stifle, which I guess all together equates to a little more angle in his hind end, as he is just a little camped out.

All that being said he seems to still have a fair bit of growing to do so he could change a bit. One thing I would look at though, is with him being so young, he is looking a little like a mature horse in his chest, and I may be a little concerned that he will get a little heavy in front.

Nothing glaring though, and though you can see things in a horses conformation, you still really need to see them move to be able to tell whether waht you see is true.

Exactly what I was thinking.

He's a cutie though, anything under 3 years old is hard to get a picture of them looking decent.

Ainsley688
Sep. 11, 2009, 05:44 PM
I'd say go for it, he's a great looking two year old, and I like when they have a little more
"heft" to them. Makes you think they're not going to break on you, lol.

Due's Mom
Sep. 11, 2009, 06:24 PM
He's a big stout 2 year old.

A bit too straight through the gaskin and the hock but I wouldn't kick him out of my barn.

I really like him and I'm a hardass...

Go Fish
Sep. 11, 2009, 06:41 PM
He's downhill. If he was a WB, I might take a chance. TB? It's a risk. A lot of them stay downhill.

JCIbarra
Sep. 11, 2009, 06:47 PM
This is him as a yearling if that helps any. He has a great temperament and is a fairly cute mover.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v625/JCIbarra/PanchosGirlSale.jpg

Coppers mom
Sep. 11, 2009, 07:19 PM
This is him as a yearling if that helps any. He has a great temperament and is a fairly cute mover.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v625/JCIbarra/PanchosGirlSale.jpg

He's looks a lot stronger in the gaskin there, so he may just being going through another goofy growth spurt. His neck has also come a long way, and he's much more uphill. The way he's growing, I think he'll end up very nice. Get him! :D

MintHillFarm
Sep. 11, 2009, 08:01 PM
I don't disagree with anything other posters have written. However he is appealing and solid. He seems to have been very well cared for too....

With his being this big at 2, I would go very slowly with him as a 3 yr old. He will grow some more and may have an awkward spurt or 2...

jetsmom
Sep. 11, 2009, 08:20 PM
He's downhill. If he was a WB, I might take a chance. TB? It's a risk. A lot of them stay downhill.

At 2 yrs old, many of them are down hill. My TB grew until he was about 5 then filled out for another year.

MintHillFarm
Sep. 11, 2009, 08:23 PM
I agree with the above...He is really not that down hill. And a 2 yr old that big and solid is bound to grow in one direction then the other...

My paint was down hill at 2 and now that he is 5, he's squared up and a solid 16.2.

*JumpIt*
Sep. 11, 2009, 08:31 PM
Just curious, what is his pedigree?

Trees4U
Sep. 12, 2009, 09:12 AM
I think good temperment is top of the list. He's nice for a OTTB 2yr old. Unless you're looking for a conformation hunter, I'd go with him. I assume he is reasonably priced. He should fill out nicely & probably grow a bit. :cool:

Just curious- why is he an OTTB at 2?

LudgerFan
Sep. 12, 2009, 10:06 AM
I like this horse a lot. He looks like an athlete, he stands like an athlete. For a two year old TB (or a mature one, for that matter!), you won't find a better set-on neck, and I can't stress enough the importance of that on a TB. I think because he is a little thicker in the throatlatch and more muscled in the neck in general it only looks short, especially as he carries himself very proudly with a higher head and neck. It is certainly of adequate length. I find the set of the neck infinitely more important than the length....the longest, snakiest neck in the world becomes a huge disadvantage if it's set on too low. I also like the length of his humerus and its more vertical orientation, making for more open, freer angles. This horse will have a very good front end over fences. Because of his more sloping croup he has a hip joint situated quite low in relation to the point of rotation of his scapula...this is actually where you look at the uphill/downhill aspect of the horse. The location of the hip joint is what determines how well a horse can step under and lift its mass; it's the fulcrum. A low hip joint also predisposes a horse to having a good uphill canter with a lot of jump and swing. Of course, once they start racing that can be lost for a time and you have to work hard at getting it back. But with his great form-to-function conformation, it shouldn't be a problem. THe second photo he does look too straight in the stifle, but I think it's an awkward moment with the leg not fully loaded, and not truly representative.

Do NOT buy this horse if you want a hunter. He will not likely move like one with that long, upright humerus. He would likely also be a bit too quick in general, even though I anticipate him jumping very well. I would expect him to do very well in dressage (of course TB's generally lack the suspension to compete with the WB's at more than the lower levels but it can certainly be improved with careful gymnastic flatwork) but he strikes me as a future low/high child/AA jumper that would absolutely SMOKE the competition in the jumpoff. I would buy him in a heartbeat with a clean vetting...ESPECIALLY if he has Ribot anywhere in his pedigree (and I suspect he does), even up to six generations back.

On a side note, with his muscling and his very strong, short back, I would anticipate him being prone to tightness. Good, relaxed work taking care to keep his back soft would be key. And probably routine chiro/acupuncture.

Keep us informed!

findeight
Sep. 12, 2009, 11:53 AM
Where did he race and when or is he just starting to train at the track?

Ummm...I don't see downhill, especially in the second straight profile picture. I do see goose rumped and the possibility he is camped out behind in both pictures. That type hip length and angle does not lend itself to pushing off to jump or to a decent length stride, puts extra stress on those hocks too. If you specifically want a Hunter, it will also impact the way he shapes himself over a jump.

Overall he is a nice attractive kind of guy with nothing glaring...he just is going to move a little short and have more trouble pushing off behind. He may be fine at lower levels but that is where you would need that packer temperment....how is he bred and how does he take his training?

Maybe make a nice under 3' type. Higher, I'd have the concerns mentioned above about step and jump style created by that back end.

We have had alot of discussion lately about the wisdom of taking on unstarted resale projects in this economy when the buyers want more finished horses. The wisdom of this one depends on your timeline and budget but I don't see too many lined up for green anything and the TB hurts them unless and until you can get them in the show ring over courses with confirmed changes.

Your choice. I just don't think he will have much Hunter style with that goose rump and set back hind. There are others that are better built of you want to take a chance on making a Hunter without seeing them jump.

LudgerFan
Sep. 13, 2009, 10:02 AM
I disagree strongly about him being goose-rumped, especially seeing his yearling photo. I think in his two year old photos (particularly the second) he has been stood up awkwardly and is flexing quite a bit through the lumbosacral, making him appear a bit steeper through the croup than he is and also straighter behind than he is. I also disagree with findeight about his ability to push over fences. You don't want a horse to just PUSH himself over fences...those that DO jump flat with a long trajectory. You want a horse to match his arc and bascule to the size and shape of the fence. You want a balance between power to push ACROSS and power to step under and jump UP and AROUND. The things that are most important in this case are length and slope of croup (a very long croup is desirable...goose-rumped horses are TOO sloping yet TOO short on croup length), a lumbosacral joint in the same vertical plane as the point of the hip or as close as possible, a low placement of hip joint in relation to the point of rotation of the scapula, and obviously good muscling in the stifle, gaskin, and hamstrings. A neck set on high is also of great advantage as its use as a lever for raising the back is better, which of course is necessary for good bascule over fences. What we tend to see nowadays is horses basculing in the neck but hardly at all through the back. Impressive front ends, but not much else.

While I agree with findeight that this horse is NOT a hunter prospect due to his likely quicker, higher movement, I do not agree that he is a mere 3' horse UNLESS he has soundness issues. I stand by my initial thoughts that this is a low/high child/AA jumper a.k.a. speed demon in the making...of course with experience I tend to look at not only what the horse is NOW, but what the proper diligent training will MAKE him...

BTW, how tall is he?

LudgerFan
Sep. 13, 2009, 02:58 PM
Just for fun, I'm posting a link to a conformation photo of Cor de la Bryere, arguably the best jumper sire EVER. Notice some similarities? Look in particular at the croup.

Obviously taken in his older years...

http://www.schumacherwarmbloods.com/Images/Cor_De_La_Bryere.jpg

And a very famous shot of him free-jumping...

http://www.thehorsemagazine.com/BREEDINGBARN/GREAT_STALLIONS/CORDELABRYERE/cordjumping.jpg

JCIbarra
Sep. 13, 2009, 06:59 PM
Thank you so much everyone! I think he'll be coming home with me! :D

JCIbarra
Sep. 22, 2009, 01:19 AM
Well he is home and is an absolute dream!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v625/JCIbarra/Pancho1-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v625/JCIbarra/Pancho2.jpg

LudgerFan
Sep. 22, 2009, 08:19 AM
What a sweetie! What strikes me is that for an OTTB he is pretty well aligned on that right side, stepping almost perfectly straight into his footprint with that right hind. Track horses that have been ponied a lot achieve this only after MUCH diligent corrective lateral work. It is VERY difficult for them to work correctly through that right stifle. I guess since he's so sweet and quiet he didn't get ponied....lucky you!!! :D

Free jump him and post some photos!!!!!

magnolia73
Sep. 22, 2009, 08:57 AM
Wow- he looks like he is going to end up really nice. You make a nice pair! Have fun.

Hauwse
Sep. 22, 2009, 12:40 PM
Just for fun, I'm posting a link to a conformation photo of Cor de la Bryere, arguably the best jumper sire EVER. Notice some similarities? Look in particular at the croup.

Obviously taken in his older years...

http://www.schumacherwarmbloods.com/Images/Cor_De_La_Bryere.jpg

And a very famous shot of him free-jumping...

http://www.thehorsemagazine.com/BREEDINGBARN/GREAT_STALLIONS/CORDELABRYERE/cordjumping.jpg

I am sorry, and nothing against this horse in particular, and I truley hope that he is everything the poster ever hoped for in a horse, but I cannot see the similiarity between Cor De La Breyere and this horse, not that it matters, as he could be a better horse.

And a point that we as horseman/woman have to embrace is that conformation is just one piece of the puzzle. If you took every horse that ever excelled in the jumper ring and compared them to each other there would be similiarities in conformation, and if you added all the horses purchased that conformationally looked like superstars just standing there that but ended up being complete dismal failures and compared them to the succesful horses you would see the same similiarities.

Nor would all the succesfull horses have the same conformation attributes, or at least any that you could point to specifically as a group, that could be defined as sole contributing conformation factors to their success.

They used to do this very same thing back in the day in the european equestrian annual L'Annee Hippique, and all the angles, ratios, and correlations will generally give you a decent idea of whether a horse has the basic conformation for a specific job, but it is a far cry from a perfect science that answers even a fraction of the questions asked of a horses potential.

As stated however there is a lot more information to be gleaned when you see a horse moving and this horse moves in the exact same way his conformation picture dictated, and from this it is only a small step to seeing how he will ultimately jump, and in this case I believe findeight may have nailed it.

shawneeAcres
Sep. 22, 2009, 12:52 PM
I rather like this horse, he has an excellent shoulder, his heck ties in nicely, not too low, neck COULD be a bit longer, but doesn't bother me, nice expression. I like his shortish back and nice strong loin, he is NOT downhill for a tw year old at all and is very well developed muscling wise. Legs look clean and good angles. Rump really not "goose rumped" just is not level, but is a bit "shallow" from point of hip to point of buttock. His hind legs aren't the best, he is high ion the hocks, I like hocks set lower to the ground, although that may change a LITTLE in a two year old. He also has rather "lean" gaskins, not a lot of muscling there, would like to see more, especially since he seems pretty muscular everywhere else. I suspect he may not be the flattest mover, I would want to see him move to really assess him, but overall seems to be a nice individual that looks like a strong horse. I would say he would suit best as an eventer or jumper prospect from the photos, but nearly impossible to predict from a couple of pics what a horse might be/do!

Edited to add: just saw the riding pics, like him a bit more after seeing those, but would really like to see a video. He looks like a decent mover in the riding photos.

LudgerFan
Sep. 22, 2009, 02:24 PM
I am sorry, and nothing against this horse in particular, and I truley hope that he is everything the poster ever hoped for in a horse, but I cannot see the similiarity between Cor De La Breyere and this horse, not that it matters, as he could be a better horse.

My point was that Corde and INNUMERABLE other very phenomenal jumpers have VERY sloping croups...so a sloping croup does NOT mean a horse will have difficulty pushing across their fences as findeight stated. I stated I predict the horse will be a child/AA jumper type, very quick in the jumpoff due to his compact build. I would not expect him to have much more scope than that due to his not being of the rectangular type.