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Roan
Sep. 11, 2009, 09:42 AM
This kinda goes along with my other post on whips and diagonals. To explain, I'm writing a guide for low level Pony Clubbers and their parents. This guide is specific to this particular Pony Club, so I'm tailoring it towards them.

I'm trying to summarize Errors of the Course and Errors of the Test and having a wee bit of a problem.

Errors of the Course -- tracking left instead of right, forgetting a movement
Errors of the Testing -- sitting trot instead of rising trots and vice versa, cantering instead of trotting and so forth.

Is this about right? If someone forgets a salute, is that an Error of the Test?

Now, I don't see a "General Error" category in the rules, so where does "voice", or anything else that you can lose points for, fit in?

Also, the bell can be rung for test and course errors, but what about other errors, ie: voice? Is that just marked down or might the judge ring the bell for it?

Eileen

blackhorsegirl
Sep. 11, 2009, 10:08 AM
Never seen a judge ring the bell because of use of voice. There you get a 2 point penalty. If you're off course, the bell will be rung and the judge will make an effort to get you going in the right direction. One judge told me about a time she was judging at a licensed show and a rider came in posting away in a 1st level test. She stopped the test, told them their error, and got them started again. I don't know how it was penalized but there had to be something taken off.

The key to success? Know the rules and know your tests.

Roan
Sep. 11, 2009, 10:34 AM
Never seen a judge ring the bell because of use of voice. There you get a 2 point penalty. If you're off course, the bell will be rung and the judge will make an effort to get you going in the right direction. One judge told me about a time she was judging at a licensed show and a rider came in posting away in a 1st level test. She stopped the test, told them their error, and got them started again. I don't know how it was penalized but there had to be something taken off.

That would be an error of the test and not the course. Was the bell rung for the test error?


The key to success? Know the rules and know your tests.Well, yes, and that's why I'm writing this. The Rules are very specific, but they are also difficult for non-horsey parents and small kids to understand. There's also a lot of stuff that I already "know" and take for granted that someone else may not.

Eileen

Roan
Sep. 11, 2009, 10:38 AM
----------- removed because I re-read the rules for the upteenth time and answered my own question. Yes, the bell is rung for test and course errors. ---------

Ambrey
Sep. 11, 2009, 10:40 AM
I don't know the answer to this, but it might be something to include.

I saw a YR come in and start the wrong test. The bell was rung, the judge clarified which test was being ridden, the rider restarted- but the judge said there would be an error. Trainer was right there and confirmed that the YR had been misinformed as to which test she was to be riding.

I would think that's an error of the test, since she had to restart?

Janet
Sep. 11, 2009, 10:50 AM
The judge has a lot of discretion on whetehr or not to blow the whistle on both errors of the course AND errors of the test.

Roan
Sep. 11, 2009, 10:53 AM
I don't know the answer to this, but it might be something to include.

I saw a YR come in and start the wrong test. The bell was rung, the judge clarified which test was being ridden, the rider restarted- but the judge said there would be an error. Trainer was right there and confirmed that the YR had been misinformed as to which test she was to be riding.

I would think that's an error of the test, since she had to restart?

IMO that would be an Error of the Course because she would be doing the wrong movements. She would lose 2 points for starting the wrong test.

If she came in doing the correct test, but in a sitting instead of a rising trot, that would be an Error of the Test and she would also lose 2 points. The Judge has the option of allowing her to restart in that scenario as well. If she were well into the test and in one movement did a rising instead of sitting trot, the Judge can ring her and have her redo the movement at the sitting. She still loses 2 points.
If she does it again in another movement, she loses 4 points.
If again in a different movement, she's out.

Eileen

Roan
Sep. 11, 2009, 10:55 AM
The judge has a lot of discretion on whetehr or not to blow the whistle on both errors of the course AND errors of the test.

Thank you. That's exactly what I read but I wanted to confirm it.


Eileen

Dressage Art
Sep. 11, 2009, 12:01 PM
but if the judge will choose not to ring her bell, but just put the "error" on the test sheet - the judge can not give a second "error" for the same mistake (if Leg Yield is done from a wrong letter to a wrong letter on one side = judge writes an error, but doesn't ring the bell = then the other side Leg Yield has the same mistake = judge can NOT give another error, since it's judge's job to explain CLEARLY what the error was for and to try to prevent the repeat of the same error. Forgetting salute at the start and then at the end = same thing. Most important element of salute is to put BOTH reins in one hand = head nod and dropping of the arm is not as important. Salute really shows that your horse can stand still while you have your BOTH reins on ONE hand.

Voice is not an error - it's a deduction of points for every movement when the voice is CLEARLY heard. Make sure that it's not a rider's tack that is making that noise. Do not stop the test for that.

errors of the course - is not following the pattern/letters.
errors of the test - everything else.

You'll see lots of kids going of course, in your manual; try to explain clearly how to deal with that.

Also explain to kids that most horses are afraid of judge's booth and they should be prepared to deal with that, not be surprised and taken by it.

You’ll also see lots of wrong canter leads – explain how to deal with that.

You’ll also see lots of problems with walks. No difference between free walk and medium walk = 4 so that’s another good point to make.

You’ll also see lots of riders not touching corner letters when turning or doing their diagonals. Tell them to thread the yarn thru the letters to make sure that they will touch them.

You’ll also see lots of riders overshooting the center lines and then wobbling back to the center and ending up in a crooked halt = tell them to start their turns early, think about 8m 1/2 circle and look at X when they start turning. going TOWARD X is easier than going BACK to X after the turn.

Roan
Sep. 11, 2009, 04:53 PM
but if the judge will choose not to ring her bell, but just put the "error" on the test sheet - the judge can not give a second "error" for the same mistake (if Leg Yield is done from a wrong letter to a wrong letter on one side = judge writes an error, but doesn't ring the bell = then the other side Leg Yield has the same mistake = judge can NOT give another error, since it's judge's job to explain CLEARLY what the error was for and to try to prevent the repeat of the same error.. . .

Lemme see if I got this --

If rider makes an error and judge does not ring bell/explain, error can be deducted but error can only be counted once even if it happens again.

If rider makes an error and judge *does* ring bell/explain blah blah and rider makes the same error again, then the error is counted again.

Is that what you mean?

From what I read/understood in the rules the error can only be counted once if it occurs more than once in the same movement, regardless if the bell is rung and error explained or not.


Forgetting salute at the start and then at the end = same thing. Most important element of salute is to put BOTH reins in one hand = head nod and dropping of the arm is not as important. Salute really shows that your horse can stand still while you have your BOTH reins on ONE hand.

Oh, most excellent point to add to guide -- object is to see if horse stands still with reins in one hand.


Voice is not an error - it's a deduction of points for every movement when the voice is CLEARLY heard. Make sure that it's not a rider's tack that is making that noise. Do not stop the test for that.

Ooof. Here I am trying to categorize this stuff for the mummies and daddies and this one has no category.


errors of the course - is not following the pattern/letters.
errors of the test - everything else.

Excellent and exactly what I thought.


You'll see lots of kids going of course, in your manual; try to explain clearly how to deal with that.

Yep. . . any tips/suggestions on that?


Also explain to kids that most horses are afraid of judge's booth and they should be prepared to deal with that, not be surprised and taken by it.
We covered that last night :D Going to be a tent, so it should prove interesting. The point of the show is to get the kids' feet wet so they know more about what to expect when they go to a "real" dressage show.


You’ll also see lots of wrong canter leads – explain how to deal with that. Yep, we cover that in lessons. We're doing Intro for the younger kids (D1 and D2) and Training for the older ones (D3 and some adults) only, so if anyone blows leads they'll be marked "harshly" :D


You’ll also see lots of problems with walks. No difference between free walk and medium walk = 4 so that’s another good point to make.Some of them are actually starting to get it! Surprised me the other day when one of the D3s -- solid jumper girl with a huge, hot gelding -- came out with a very, very respectable free walk. Dang, I was proud of her :) If she does that in her test it's an easy mark for her.


You’ll also see lots of riders not touching corner letters when turning or doing their diagonals. Tell them to thread the yarn thru the letters to make sure that they will touch them. Thread the yarn? Explain?


You’ll also see lots of riders overshooting the center lines and then wobbling back to the center and ending up in a crooked halt = tell them to start their turns early, think about 8m 1/2 circle and look at X when they start turning. going TOWARD X is easier than going BACK to X after the turn.Which test, which movement? I'm having trouble visualizing this.

MUCH thanks for your help with this, DA.

Eileen

Ambrey
Sep. 11, 2009, 05:39 PM
Which test, which movement? I'm having trouble visualizing this.


I think she means coming into the arena up the centerline.

Roan
Sep. 11, 2009, 07:06 PM
I think she means coming into the arena up the centerline.

Hrm, but she was referring to turns and those are straight entries up the centerline. I think she means at the end of the tests. I just wanna make sure I'm on the same page.

Eileen

Ambrey
Sep. 11, 2009, 07:24 PM
Yeah, but you have to turn into the arena. She might mean at the end of the test but it applies to both (don't overshoot A coming up the centerline).

eta: We usually have a dressage arena within a larger arena at the shows here, so you're warming up outside the arena, then have to turn up centerline at A and come in. It's the first thing the judge sees, so if you overshoot you ruin your "first impression."

slc2
Sep. 11, 2009, 07:28 PM
You can get eliminated for use of the voice if it is repeated. My pony was spooking at some gigantic flapping tarp, I clucked a couple times and was eliminated.

ideayoda
Sep. 11, 2009, 07:37 PM
dr 122.3. Voice. The use of the voice in any way whatsoever or clicking the tongue once or re- peatedly is a serious fault involving the deduction of at least two marks from those that would otherwise have been awarded for the movement where this occurred.

You are not eliminated for use of the voice, it just takes (at least) -2 each time it occurs.

Roan
Sep. 11, 2009, 08:06 PM
. . .
You are not eliminated for use of the voice, it just takes (at least) -2 each time it occurs.

'Xactly. As with the person who had 2 points taken off for her diagonals, I would have protested the score.

Eileen

slc2
Sep. 11, 2009, 08:57 PM
I was eliminated on the third 'cluck'. I think the judge was Channing, but I'm not sure.

Roan
Sep. 11, 2009, 09:00 PM
I was eliminated on the third 'cluck'. I think the judge was Channing, but I'm not sure.

Burn the witch! ;)

That sucks. Sorry that happened, slc, it shouldn't have.

Eileen

Ambrey
Sep. 11, 2009, 09:00 PM
Maybe she thought it was baseball? (you're OUT!)

slc2
Sep. 11, 2009, 09:12 PM
-2 use of voice -2 use of voice -2, eliminated.

'I'm so sorry that shouldn't have happened'

OOOOOOOH yes it should have. I would have given anyone a hundred bucks at that point to do something that would get me excused. 'Here! Here! Land the hot air balloon in THIS ring!!!!'

Reminds me of a bike race in which me and my also-dropped pal were running around looking for thumb tacks on the shoulder of the road! 'Wagon! We got a flat! BOTH of us! Seeeee?'

Dressage Art
Sep. 13, 2009, 03:43 AM
Thread the yarn? Explain?

Which test, which movement? I'm having trouble visualizing this.

MUCH thanks for your help with this, DA.

Eileen

Roan, my head/heart is not in the right place now (my mare is in the hospital) but I'll be happy to help you with your manual latter. So sorry...

Roan
Sep. 13, 2009, 06:30 AM
Roan, my head/heart is not in the right place now (my mare is in the hospital) but I'll be happy to help you with your manual latter. So sorry...

I know. I posted Jingles for you and Zena on Facebook.

Wishing you and her the best of luck.

Eileen

slc2
Sep. 13, 2009, 08:03 AM
Hope the horse recovers and is home soon!


Re the comments about centerlines weaving (Thread the yarn? Explain?

Which test, which movement? I'm having trouble visualizing this.
)

I think this applies to any centerline.

SillyHorse
Sep. 13, 2009, 08:17 AM
I was eliminated on the third 'cluck'. I think the judge was Channing, but I'm not sure.
Then that must have been 15 years ago. Anything happen to you in the show ring recently? :lol:

slc2
Sep. 13, 2009, 08:24 AM
No, it has not, because as you very well know, I haven't shown in quite some time.

Janet
Sep. 13, 2009, 08:34 AM
Whe someone is trying to put together a guide for the CURRENT RULES, it isn't very helpful to post about things that happened under the old rules without making that clear.

slc2
Sep. 13, 2009, 08:45 AM
You're absolutely right, but I don't think that the rule itself actually has changed.

There was a question at the time, whether that was an appropriate scoring, same as now. Many people tend to feel the rules against voice are unfair, and many assume any penalty for voice could not result in elimination. The use of voice is mentioned under dressage tests and equitation classes.

The execution of the tests section says use of the voice is a 'serious fault' and will be penalized by the deduction of AT LEAST 2 points. It later says every error of course is penalized by 2 points the first time, 4 points the second time, and elimination the third time.

What I don't find is one place where all the errors of course or errors of test are listed out.

It says example error of tests are posting when one should sit, not takign the reins in one hand to salute, and are penalized as for error of course.

It does above in national and fei tests, say an error of test is penalized the same as an error of course. And later says the decision about whether an error of course has occured is up to the judge at C (which i believe only intends to say what to do when the judges disagree over whether an eoc had occured).

At one point, an internet discussion I read said that use of the voice is covered by the section on 'unauthorized assistance'. I had always assumed that section pertained only to people other than the rider(it refers to a 'third party'), but that section says the use of the voice is a severely penalized issue that can result in elimination. The test sheet said -2 use of voice, -4 use of voice, eliminated. No other issues mentioned with the elim. than the voice.

I didn't protest it at the time, because I thought that voice was one of the things you could get eliminated for if it occured more than twice.

Obviously if you read my previous post, I was still assuming that if it occured more than twice you could still get eliminated today.

Based on what you all are saying, I don't know if it is correct to eliminate someone for a third use of voice or not. Someone has quoted the rules and at least that section doesn't mention it, but I don't understand if use of voice is or isn't in the category of errors that can get one eliminated after 2x.

Channing knew the rules very well, but so did all the other judges I ever showed under. The area dressage clubs at that time did an incredible job getting judges for shows.

Dressage Art
Sep. 13, 2009, 03:19 PM
thank you Eileen.

Roan
Sep. 14, 2009, 12:08 AM
. . .
The execution of the tests section says use of the voice is a 'serious fault' and will be penalized by the deduction of AT LEAST 2 points. It later says every error of course is penalized by 2 points the first time, 4 points the second time, and elimination the third time.

What I don't find is one place where all the errors of course or errors of test are listed out.

It says example error of tests are posting when one should sit, not takign the reins in one hand to salute, and are penalized as for error of course.
. . .


Now you know why I'm trying to write this bloody guide ;)

Voice isn't an Error of the Course or Test. It's a "general" error that isn't in either category. It's like a dangling participle -- just hanging there with no categorization. Grinding teeth and wringing tails also have no category, but they're supposed to be marked down by 2 for each movement in which they occur.

Annoying, that.

I've seen nothing to indicate that voice or tail/teeth fall under the "Error of Course" rule of three strikes and you're out.

Now, ideayoda says that voice is not something that anyone should be disqualified for and since she's an R judge, I tend to believe she's right. So that's how I'm writing my guide.

I'm not saying you or Channing are wrong, slc, but you've stated that this was some years ago and perhaps things have changed since then.

Eileen

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Sep. 14, 2009, 12:21 AM
Granted, this was in a test at Training Level about 5 years ago, rated show.

It was right around July 4th and around here that means everyone and his brother sets up fireworks booths (buy one get six free, really). There was one set up right across the street from the grounds. Missouri being the state it is, someone blew one off right at the arena. We were on the other side, just starting our free walk.

I am so grateful for my "nutso OTTB." He didn't take off (although my heart left via my mouth and was found miles away, down the highway). But he Would. Not. Go. To. The. Other. Side. Which. Was. Right. Where. The. Firecracker. Was.

What to do, what to do. So I talked him through it. I know I spoke three separate times, though it wasn't a text book, more like, crooning, "Good boy."

We did get across. It was not relaxed, he was not swinging through his back, he did not step from behind, but we got there (he's not stupid, he knew something Evil was there). We got a 3 for the movement, but I was beaming because the judge wrote, "Well ridden."

But we weren't eliminated. And I will say, it probably took us a few minutes to get to the other side of the arena.

Roan
Sep. 14, 2009, 06:16 AM
. . . .
We did get across. It was not relaxed, he was not swinging through his back, he did not step from behind, but we got there (he's not stupid, he knew something Evil was there). We got a 3 for the movement, but I was beaming because the judge wrote, "Well ridden."

But we weren't eliminated. And I will say, it probably took us a few minutes to get to the other side of the arena.

Training level -- that's probably how I would have handled it were I a judge.

Did they have the "20 second resistance" rule back then?

Eileen

slc2
Sep. 14, 2009, 06:47 AM
Thanks Roan. For someone who does a lot of technical writing and reading, the rules seem unclear in some places. I'd like to see a place in the rules where general errors, errors of course, and errors of test are listed, but I can understand why they might not be.

I can't recall if there was a 20 sec resistance rule back then or not. I initially thought I was eliminated due to the horse's resistance, but it was not sustained.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Sep. 14, 2009, 09:03 AM
Training level -- that's probably how I would have handled it were I a judge.

Did they have the "20 second resistance" rule back then?

Eileen

You know, it seemed like forever. On the other hand, since it cleared several spectators, and it was Training level, I'm sure the judge was inclined to be sympathetic. Many horses would have simply taken off and gotten to (and through) the other side that way.

Kaeleer
Sep. 14, 2009, 11:31 AM
It's simple, really.

Know your tests REALLY, REALLY well and only use your voice when the judge can't hear. I talk throughout my tests, but I've never been nailed for use of voice.

Sorry, Roan, not much help, am I?

Roan
Sep. 14, 2009, 11:48 AM
It's simple, really.

Know your tests REALLY, REALLY well and only use your voice when the judge can't hear. I talk throughout my tests, but I've never been nailed for use of voice.

Both the BO/Trainer and I have told the kids that knowing the test inside and out was 90% of the battle. It's hard to be confident and ride well when you have no clue where you are going or what comes next.


Sorry, Roan, not much help, am I?Still love yah anyhow, Kaleer :)

Eileen

ideayoda
Sep. 14, 2009, 12:13 PM
http://www.usef.org/documents/ruleBook/2009/08-DR.pdf #122/123/124 reveals all the places which will causes errors (of course or test)/lowering of scores/and elimination. Pretty straight forward.

It is interesting that people go to show without knowing the guidelines of what they are to produce (ie gaits/etc), or the rules under which they are to perform. It is pretty straight forward (for the most part). Whether judging is done according to the rules/guidelines is another discussion, but ignorance of the law isn't a defense either.

Ambrey
Sep. 14, 2009, 12:20 PM
I agree with roan, the wording is very confusing. I hope Roan makes her booklet available for us too ;)

Janet
Sep. 14, 2009, 12:41 PM
You know, it seemed like forever. On the other hand, since it cleared several spectators, and it was Training level, I'm sure the judge was inclined to be sympathetic. Many horses would have simply taken off and gotten to (and through) the other side that way.

There is also THIS rule

j. The judge may stop a test and/or allow a competitor to restart a test from the beginning
or from any appropriate point in the test if, in his discretion, some unusual circumstance
has occurred to interrupt a test.
and I expect the judge was taking the spirit of that into account, even if she didn't explicitly stop and restart the test.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Sep. 14, 2009, 01:49 PM
Janet reminds me of something you should add to the book, Roan: ALWAYS read the comments from your test. Taken collectively, they are like a lesson. And sometimes those comments can make you beam for days. When I saw the "Well Ridden!" I felt terrific, because I had no clue what to do.

Roan
Sep. 14, 2009, 04:51 PM
http://www.usef.org/documents/ruleBook/2009/08-DR.pdf #122/123/124 reveals all the places which will causes errors (of course or test)/lowering of scores/and elimination. Pretty straight forward.

But not categorized :)

Some of the rules are difficult for younger kids and non-horsey parents to understand. I know, I've had to verbally clarify to more than one parent who came to me asking this and that.


It is interesting that people go to show without knowing the guidelines of what they are to produce (ie gaits/etc), or the rules under which they are to perform. It is pretty straight forward (for the most part). Whether judging is done according to the rules/guidelines is another discussion, but ignorance of the law isn't a defense either.

I don't know what the "problem" with the general dressage populace is, but a lot of Pony Clubbers do not own their own horses and have to ride whatever they can. They don't have that much control over the training/performance of the animal. One pony might move beautifully and correct for X rider, but when Y rider starts riding the pony as well, the gaits go to hell in a hand basket. Makes it tough for X rider, but it's a fact of life and sometimes we just gotta cut the kids some slack. They're trying.

What I'm saying is that most Pony Club shows (from what I've experienced) are judged rather laxly as compared to rated or even local shows.

The good thing is that since we've been putting more emphasis on the PC dressage here, I've noticed more and more kids wanting to know and learn more about it and how to do it properly. That's always good for the ponies.

Eileen

Roan
Sep. 14, 2009, 04:56 PM
I agree with roan, the wording is very confusing. I hope Roan makes her booklet available for us too ;)

I will if no one is overly critical or laughs :)

Seriously, it's a work in progress and the first couple of revisions will be geared towards this particular Pony Club. Those areas I have footnoted and once I get it fleshed out some more, I *might* make it available to anyone who wants it.

Depends on my bravery quota :)

Paula will rip it to shreds, I'm sure :D

Eileen

Roan
Sep. 14, 2009, 04:59 PM
There is also THIS rule

and I expect the judge was taking the spirit of that into account, even if she didn't explicitly stop and restart the test.

Exactly.

With kids, there will always be extenuating circumstances. It happens and the last thing I want to do is turn these kids off dressage. They need it. Their ponies need it. We all need it :)

Eileen

Roan
Sep. 14, 2009, 05:02 PM
I just wanted to quote something that I have prominently placed in my guide:

"The Rating that the Judge gives on a movement is based on the USEF DR rules and is that Judge’s opinion on that movement in that test at that point in time. This is being stressed because dressage tests are entirely subjective and are scored movement by movement. . . ."

After a few parents read that they told me that things were much more clearer to them now.

I think it was more my way of preventing parental units from pelting me with tomatoes :D

Eileen

slc2
Sep. 14, 2009, 06:17 PM
I would not say it's entirely subjective.

I'd say that within the guidelines for scoring, there are differences of opinion on individual scores. I don't think there's any point in giving people trying dressage the impression that the judging is entirely arbitrary. I think that's your bias, and I think it's unfair and insulting.

Roan
Sep. 14, 2009, 08:47 PM
I would not say it's entirely subjective.

I'd say that within the guidelines for scoring, there are differences of opinion on individual scores. I don't think there's any point in giving people trying dressage the impression that the judging is entirely arbitrary. I think that's your bias, and I think it's unfair and insulting.

Of course that's not my bias. Geez.

Obviously I need to reword that a bit -- maybe drop "entirely"? That's why I posted it here. For feedback :)

Thank you
Eileen

slc2
Sep. 14, 2009, 11:42 PM
I think that's still pretty snotty, and I don't think innocent, well meaning parents need to be introduced to all these baby boomer complaints.

'It's important to learn the essentials of what the judge is looking for, and to understand that judges may see the same movement from a different angle, and may not always give the same score'. You will write whatever you want, but I think something unemotioinal is best and lacking in the Full Power of the Dark Side is best.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Sep. 15, 2009, 02:25 AM
Roan, I think it's a pretty clear statement. In many ways, the judging is subjective - it is a snapshot in time. At the lower levels, of course, it's far easier to get the whole picture, but one judge at one vantage point simply can't get all the information on everything for each movement 100% of the time. It's not humanly possible. That's why it's so worthwhile to have a few tests to compare over the course of a 2 or 3 day show, because then you get a more general sense of where you are.

Kaeleer
Sep. 15, 2009, 03:55 AM
Roan, I have TWICE managed to lose my course when riding WITH a caller, so I'm really the last person to comment about "knowing the test".

I'm a hopeless case. Severely directionally challenged. My jumping instructor is often overheard shouting "Turn left. The OTHER left!!" during lessons. Sigh.

claire
Sep. 15, 2009, 09:37 AM
Roan, I think it's a pretty clear statement.
In many ways, the judging is subjective - it is a snapshot in time. At the lower levels, of course, it's far easier to get the whole picture, but one judge at one vantage point simply can't get all the information on everything for each movement 100% of the time. It's not humanly possible.

Agree. For Roan's purpose (writing a guide for PC members and their parents) I think it's important to emphasize that judging of
Dressage movements is subjective.

In the H/J discipline, which is pretty subjective esp. the flat classes, the best trainers teach their clients pretty early on about "ring craft" when showing. (ie.Where in a class you position yourself to your best advantage, how to best execute a transition of gait, where you make corrections, using schooling classes effectively to determine judges preferences etc. etc. )

My trainer would occasionally do a schooling Dressage show with her horses, and I was always impressed at how she adapted her H/J ring craft skills to the Dressage show:

She would always try to school in the ring the night before (get the horse used to the ring and judge's table or trailer)
And her practice around the ring before entering, was well thought out in regard to the gaits, judge and giving the horse a good look at any weird objects/goblins around the ring.

She would always do several classes ( one TL and then a couple 1st L)
and was able to suss out the judges preferences through the comments and then ride accordingly, giving the judge what they were looking for.

She used the corners away from the judge's eye for corrections, she would position the horse always with the judges visual perspective in mind.

And use of voice? She talked to her horses constantly, but in a low tone away from the judge.

I don't think Dressage trainers put as much emphasis on ring craft in their lessons as H/J trainers do. At least not at the lower levels. :confused:
(At the top levels yes, for example,Anky is the master of savvy ring craft)

Ambrey
Sep. 15, 2009, 10:00 AM
Agree. For Roan's purpose (writing a guide for PC members and their parents) I think it's important to emphasize that judging of
Dressage movements is subjective.

I agree, subjective and arbitrary are not the same thing! And I think the comment that it's a measure of that moment in time is important too, as the judge can't see how well you've been doing at home- if it's bad in the ring, that's your score!

Janet
Sep. 15, 2009, 10:54 AM
Especially at the lower levels, each judge prioritizes things differently.

Where the ideal is "forward and relaxed",
but
Horse A is forward but tense
and
Horse B is relaxed but not forward

Some judges give A a higher score, and other judges will give B a higher score, even though they are both LOOKING for the same thing - forward AND relaxed.

Janet
Sep. 15, 2009, 11:00 AM
I don't think Dressage trainers put as much emphasis on ring craft in their lessons as H/J trainers do. At least not at the lower levels. :confused:


Most of the dressage trainers I have worked with DO teach "ring craft" as well. Especially trainers who are also judges.

If you ever have a chance to ride a "fix a test" with Margaret Freeman you will get LOTS of feedback on ring craft.

claire
Sep. 15, 2009, 11:15 AM
Most of the dressage trainers I have worked with DO teach "ring craft" as well. Especially trainers who are also judges.

If you ever have a chance to ride a "fix a test" with Margaret Freeman you will get LOTS of feedback on ring craft.

Maybe, I should have said that most H/J trainers *usually* give more emphasis to "ring craft" in (lower level/ammie) lessons.

But then, in H/J the emphasis is *usually* more on "training to show" rather than "showing to check the training" as in Dressage?

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Sep. 15, 2009, 11:19 AM
Roan, I have TWICE managed to lose my course when riding WITH a caller, so I'm really the last person to comment about "knowing the test".

I'm a hopeless case. Severely directionally challenged. My jumping instructor is often overheard shouting "Turn left. The OTHER left!!" during lessons. Sigh.

*sigh* this is why I never have someone read the test, as I then have no excuse for mixing up left and right.

A hint, maybe useful for your kids? I put the whip in whatever hand I am supposed to first turn at C. That way I don't do the test as a mirror image. If I get that first turn okay, I'm okay.

Of course if I ever get to 4th level I'll have to think up other things.

Bronte
Sep. 15, 2009, 11:30 AM
Here is Equine Canada rules on these issues

http://www.equinecanada.ca/images/stories/2009_Rules/English/11sept09/section_e_2009_%28clean-copy%29_10sept09-e.pdf

Chapter 9
Page 64 (numbers at bottom of page)
Page 37 (adobe page count, top tool bar)

I believe the Canadian and US Rules are syncronised.

ideayoda
Sep. 15, 2009, 12:21 PM
They are pretty much the same...the sections relevant (from usef rules) have been stated. There is no need for more lists, since they are there. (Future competitors needs to know them). Since they can change from year to year, albeit slightly, the members (of usef/cadora) needs to check out the modifications.

Roan
Sep. 15, 2009, 01:29 PM
*sigh* this is why I never have someone read the test, as I then have no excuse for mixing up left and right.

A hint, maybe useful for your kids? I put the whip in whatever hand I am supposed to first turn at C. That way I don't do the test as a mirror image. If I get that first turn okay, I'm okay.

Of course if I ever get to 4th level I'll have to think up other things.

Oh. my. Gosh. What a WONDERFUL idea, DGR! The Trainer's daughter -- she's six -- is having a tough time remembering left and right in turning at C from X in Intro A & B. This is PERFECT for a young kid!

Eileen

Roan
Sep. 15, 2009, 01:33 PM
I'm glad almost everyone understood what I was getting at with that paragraph I wrote for the guide.

I will try to clarify it a bit more as I think slc does has a point. I don't think it's "snotty" the way I wrote it though :)

You guys are great with your comments and suggestions!

PLEASE keep those little tidbits of help coming. Everything and anything will help these kids a lot.

Eileen

poltroon
Sep. 15, 2009, 03:03 PM
*sigh* this is why I never have someone read the test, as I then have no excuse for mixing up left and right.

A hint, maybe useful for your kids? I put the whip in whatever hand I am supposed to first turn at C. That way I don't do the test as a mirror image. If I get that first turn okay, I'm okay.

Of course if I ever get to 4th level I'll have to think up other things.

You can do a piece of tape on your glove. In lessons, often the trick used is to have two different glove colors.

Long Spot
Sep. 15, 2009, 03:12 PM
One of the things to remember about Pony Club, is that it is stressed highly that when a child is being rated, it is what the examiner sees on that day. Mainly to keep examiners from performing a rating for a kid that they KNOW is capable of meeting the standards, but they don't on that given day, but pass them anyway. If you and your horse are having a bad day, it's too bad, but all the examiner can do is go by what they see on that day.

Given that, I think it's quite fair, Roan, and a good reminder for parents to include that in your guide. It's not new information to PC parents and kids. But a gentle reminder.

I love the idea of what you are putting together.

Janet
Sep. 15, 2009, 03:14 PM
You can do a piece of tape on your glove. In lessons, often the trick used is to have two different glove colors.

I put the bridle number on the side the judge will see on the first turn.

FriesianX
Sep. 16, 2009, 09:07 AM
I just wanted to quote something that I have prominently placed in my guide:

"The Rating that the Judge gives on a movement is based on the USEF DR rules and is that Judge’s opinion on that movement in that test at that point in time. This is being stressed because dressage tests are entirely subjective and are scored movement by movement. . . ."

After a few parents read that they told me that things were much more clearer to them now.

I think it was more my way of preventing parental units from pelting me with tomatoes :D

Eileen

Hi Eileen, how about just changing the wording a bit - that Judge's assessment on how that movement was performed? If you want to get even more "technical", you can go on to say something like "The judge evaluates the collectives (rider's influence, quality of gaits, horse's submission, and impulsion) as well as the specific directives of every single movement when they come to that individual score.

Each movement is scored individually - so a rider may get a very low score on one or a few movements, but still do quite well overall based on the scores of all the other movements.

I think a little guideline like you are developing is a wonderful tool to help people understand HOW the scores are derived!

Roan
Sep. 16, 2009, 05:13 PM
Hi Eileen, how about just changing the wording a bit - that Judge's assessment on how that movement was performed? If you want to get even more "technical", you can go on to say something like "The judge evaluates the collectives (rider's influence, quality of gaits, horse's submission, and impulsion) as well as the specific directives of every single movement when they come to that individual score.

I'm trying to stay away from technical lingo in the first "chapter" of the guide as much as possible. This is what is making it difficult to write :) It has to be understandable or easily explainable to a 10 year old.

I *will* further explain how they relate to one another, further on in the guide.

The hard part will be explaining gaits and acceptance of the bit, I think. Ah, I'm going to have a few of the kids explain to ME what they think those are. That'll give me a way of writing it.


Each movement is scored individually - so a rider may get a very low score on one or a few movements, but still do quite well overall based on the scores of all the other movements. I actually do have a comment about this in the guide. And I've told the kids that if they have a good free and medium walk and a solid halt, they can make up for a lot of errors elsewhere in the test.


I think a little guideline like you are developing is a wonderful tool to help people understand HOW the scores are derived!

Thanks :) Hey, you never know. If it's good enough maybe I'll take it to Half Halt Press.

In the meantime, any feed back I can get from you guys would be great.

Eileen

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Sep. 16, 2009, 06:35 PM
Taking it to Half Halt Press is a great idea!!!!