We need a kid movement in American eventing

[denny]

First, as a former kid, let me just preface my comments by saying that in many ways, kids are stupider than dirt.

They are so often cocky, opinionated, emotional, and wildly ignorant. They don`t take good advise, they know more than god, and they make rash decisions.

BUT---They are brave, fit, agile, hungry, talented, focussed, driven, and they bounce.

They don`t take no for an answer, they leap in where wise men fear to tread, and American eventing needs them right now more than its ever needed anything.

Our Pan Am teams should have an average age of under 30, and for every 40 pluss-er we send abroad, we should send two 20-somethings.

That`s my opinion, and I think I`m right!!

[JER]

I'd like to see more young US riders go to France/UK/Ireland and be WS for BNRs and BNTs for a year or more.

A 'training grant' to go to the UK for one competition -- and YRs do get these opportunities -- is a lot of money for a long weekend. That same grant would make for a good stipend for a year abroad working in a well-established UL eventing program.

[gully's pilot]

Hi, Denny. I clicked on this thread ready to tell you how my kid, age 11, is getting ready to enter her very first real event.

But you're talking older kids--like the ones who refer to me as the "horse show mom who rides" which, I think, is code for "old fat lady."

[TXnGA]

First, as a former kid, let me just preface my comments by saying that in many ways, kids are stupider than dirt.

They are so often cocky, opinionated, emotional, and wildly ignorant. They don`t take good advise, they know more than god, and they make rash decisions.

BUT---They are brave, fit, agile, hungry, talented, focussed, driven, and they bounce.

They don`t take no for an answer, they leap in where wise men fear to tread, and American eventing needs them right now more than its ever needed anything.

Our Pan Am teams should have an average age of under 30, and for every 40 pluss-er we send abroad, we should send two 20-somethings.

That`s my opinion, and I think I`m right!!

I AGREE!!!!!

[fernie fox]

As I said on the other thread,it would be a great idea.

Here is a start.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/marketplace/classified/equine-jobs-working-with-horses.htm

[subk]

First, as a former kid, let me just preface my comments by saying that in many ways, kids are stupider than dirt.

They are so often cocky, opinionated, emotional, and wildly ignorant. They don`t take good advise, they know more than god, and they make rash decisions.

You must be hanging out with my kids when I'm not around!

Seriously, that list is exactly what the safety at all cost crowd is driving away. Are we willing as a sport to relax a little? Because if we don't chill out a bit and accept (and even embrace) the dangerous element that is involved in eventing these kids will go elsewhere. One of mine at 15 had her first aerobatics lesson yesterday--how in the world can trotting in a circle and focusing on 2'6" cross rails compete?

[retreadeventer]

Denny agreed but they have got to have the horses. The kids that go to the NAYRC need to get right home and get right in a pipeline to the Pan Ams, and just like the USDF did, we need a Young professional program to find and develop the kids who can't find the money to get international experience.
We need HORSES. Then we need MONEY. And, somebody who CARES to manage both.

We have Jennie Brannigan, I can see our own Dana's Andrew included in this group, Siobhan, Molly Rosin, Shannon out of Karen O'Connors (is she under 30?) who else?

What do these kids need? Money? Training? Where, how, what should we point them toward?
Rather than spend oodles sending barely qualified horses to Burghley, wouldn't we be better off having a few of the young kids sent on tour to Europe instead each summer for the under 25 sections? Who decides this? Why haven't we channelled funds that are raised into long term AND short term?
The way the funds have been distributed is boggling IMO. We don't seem to spend USET money on the right things for the three day event team any more. We don't get much bang for our buck. That needs to change. But I have no illusions. It will not change with current leadership utilizing the Drinking Buddy Accounting Method.

[Tazzie]

Hey Denny, have you seen Savannah Fulton ride? She's an adorable kid from Maryland who has to be around 11, just started riding training on Regal Grace, and looks downright amazing! That's a kid that has a bright future ahead of her. She may be young, but I love watching that girl ride, and I look forward to watching her grow up around here!

[TB_eventer]

Ohhhhhhhhh pick me!

Oh wait. I've never had the money, the horse, the support, etc. My parents would disown me if I didn't finish college (or if I had tried to be a working student between high school and college).

Now, I'm not necessarily talented enough, etc. I'm just using myself as an example, because I know that for a long time I was sure I wanted to compete on an international scale. I had the guts, work ethic, .... but no money, no horse, no support.

If you really want to get the BEST riders, then you can't make the system reliant on how much money you have (or have found) like it is now. And you can't just pick one kid and support them. Find a group, and whittle it down as their talent, or lack thereof, is apparent.

[retreadeventer]

wow, where are you located now? Holy cow we are dying for info about British eventing and here you come in this discussion. Where have you competed over there and what level? What things have you found to be difficult?

[fernie fox]

please read the link I posted.

That is the cheapest way to get Experience.17 to 20 yr olds would do best.

[pegasusmom]

Denny agreed but they have got to have the horses. The kids that go to the NAYRC need to get right home and get right in a pipeline to the Pan Ams, and just like the USDF did, we need a Young professional program to find and develop the kids who can't find the money to get international experience.
We need HORSES. Then we need MONEY. And, somebody who CARES to manage both.

We have Jennie Brannigan, I can see our own Dana's Andrew included in this group, Siobhan, Molly Rosin, Shannon out of Karen O'Connors (is she under 30?) who else?

What do these kids need? Money? Training? Where, how, what should we point them toward?
Rather than spend oodles sending barely qualified horses to Burghley, wouldn't we be better off having a few of the young kids sent on tour to Europe instead each summer for the under 25 sections? Who decides this? Why haven't we channelled funds that are raised into long term AND short term?
The way the funds have been distributed is boggling IMO. We don't seem to spend USET money on the right things for the three day event team any more. We don't get much bang for our buck. That needs to change. But I have no illusions. It will not change with current leadership utilizing the Drinking Buddy Accounting Method.

Well, thanks for the plug - see above to Denny's description (cocky, opinionated etc.) which is the reason he may not live long enough to realise this! :D (would that be considered justifiable homicide?)

But I do wonder about the cash flow distribution. There are a lot of talented young riders out there- and I think there definitely needs to be a better talent identification and cultivation program than what appears to be the current checkbook competition.

[subk]

F--They are brave, fit, agile, hungry, talented, focussed, driven, and they bounce.

They don`t take no for an answer, they leap in where wise men fear to tread, and American eventing needs them right now more than its ever needed anything.
Those are not the qualities that are currently being used to find young talent. It is much more important to have wealthy parents who "sponsor" you on multiple horses if you want to get noticed.

[eventerchick517]

kids are stupider than dirt.



But we have so much fun being that way....:winkgrin::lol: Besides it's better than being OLDER than dirt!!!:eek::lol::D

[GotSpots]

I find it sort of amazing watching these threads: first everyone's up in arms over how young the folks are on the developing riders' list ("too young," "not enough experience" etc.) and now they're not young enough? Go figure. Seriously, folks. Y'all are saying that we should be working to get less experienced up and comers mileage and international experience, and then you're upset that the up and comers who were given opportunities to get that experience weren't in the top ten.

Moreover, don't forget that the USEF DID send four developing riders (Jennie Brannigan, Heather Morris, Andrea Leathermen and Lauren Kieffer) over to Burghley to gain some international experience and see what it's like being in a team environment. May not be riding, but it was the opportunity for some of our young potential stars to see what the big stage looks like.

And retread - I'm not sure what you're possibly referring to by "barely qualified" at Burghley, but folks like Jennifer, Allison, and Missy were all extremely well qualified to go to Burghley, they all had gone successfully around Rolex on these horses before going abroad. Not sure what else they could have done to get "qualified" in your book, but let's at least face the facts here.

[Maya01]

Denny agreed but they have got to have the horses. The kids that go to the NAYRC need to get right home and get right in a pipeline to the Pan Ams, and just like the USDF did, we need a Young professional program to find and develop the kids who can't find the money to get international experience.
We need HORSES. Then we need MONEY. And, somebody who CARES to manage both.


Amen. I myself am one of those upper level aspiring kids who just doesn't have the money, and consequently, doesn't have the horse (as for the talent, I'm not sure if people say I'm good because I'm actually horrible and they want me to feel good, or I'm actually a good rider).

It is as if we need an Eventing American/Canadian Idol to whittle down a select amount of riders that are outstanding to place on 'made' horses or horses with the fundamentals and natural talent, be shipped of to Europe and be a working student for some top rider, get the show mileage and then be placed on one of our International teams in the near future. That would be pretty awesome :yes:

[jn4jenny]

I find it sort of amazing watching these threads: first everyone's up in arms over how young the folks are on the developing riders' list ("too young," "not enough experience" etc.) and now they're not young enough? Go figure. Seriously, folks. Y'all are saying that we should be working to get less experienced up and comers mileage and international experience, and then you're upset that the up and comers who were given opportunities to get that experience weren't in the top ten.

GotSpots, I usually admire your articulate and thoughtful responses on the Eventing forum threads. But in this case, you're conflating two completely different issues.

People ARE mad about the folks on the developing riders list--but not purely because they're young. They're mad because those folks are typically young AND funded by rich mommies/daddies who put fancy horses under them AND climbed the eventing levels very quickly.

I guarantee that if you took those same talented young riders (and I don't think anybody is questioning those kids' talent) and put them in programs that rewarded guts, dedication, and progressively greater experience by putting progressively nicer horses under their hineys, nobody would be whining about them being "young".

In other words, it's very nice when a young American kid gets lucky enough to have rich parents and gets lucky enough to buy a schoolmaster horse that takes them up the ranks. But it would be way nicer to take that young American kid and put them in a meritocratic system that truly let the cream rise to the top.

[Lisa Cook]

They're mad because those folks are typically young AND funded by rich mommies/daddies who put fancy horses under them AND climbed the eventing levels very quickly.


OK, as a parent, I question this statement. From day one with my son's riding, my goal has been for him to be on the most appropriate mount possible for each stage of his riding. Which means right now I am leasing a horse for him to ride, even though we own 2 horses (well, technically a horse and a pony). But of the 2 that we own, neither are the best match for his riding right now. The horse we lease for him is not fancy, but is 100% safe and reliable and is taking my son to his first recognized events at BN, has taken my son schooling over his first novice questions, and has done so every step of the way in a safe, positive, confidence building manner. In fact, every time my son rides this horse, my son is braver and more confident.

But as my son progresses, if he gets to the point where he could actually *do* something with a fancy horse, and it was an appropriate point in his riding to obtain him something like that, and if it was a fiscally responsible purchase as far as the family budget is concerned, absolutely, I would try and obtain him such a horse.

What is wrong with that approach and why does it deserve *anger*, of all things? If anyone wants to direct anger, I recommend watching the warmup of a junior division of a horse trial and look at the kids who are on totally inappropriate and unsafe mounts.

[Hey Mickey]

Ohhhhhhhhh pick me!

Oh wait. I've never had the money, the horse, the support, etc. My parents would disown me if I didn't finish college (or if I had tried to be a working student between high school and college).

Now, I'm not necessarily talented enough, etc. I'm just using myself as an example, because I know that for a long time I was sure I wanted to compete on an international scale. I had the guts, work ethic, .... but no money, no horse, no support.

If you really want to get the BEST riders, then you can't make the system reliant on how much money you have (or have found) like it is now. And you can't just pick one kid and support them. Find a group, and whittle it down as their talent, or lack thereof, is apparent.


Big Big Ditto.
I'm 21. I'm about as brave (or stupid...) as you can be on a horse. Riding comes somewhat natural to me. Point me to a horse and I will get on it. (I'm the sacrificial child that gets on all of the babies for the 1st time.... I have a secret desire to be an exercise rider for a racing barn)

I work 3 jobs and commute to school (where I got full time)
Struggle to get entries for a HT. Struggle to find a way for my horse to get to a HT, lessons, clinics etc...

I have a nice little OTTB, that I think once we get it together at prelim (see lack of ways to get to/fund to go to clinics, lessons, etc) we may be able to go intermediate someday.
I have a nice nice nice yearling (homebread) and accesses to a even nicer about to be weanling (which is a 1/2 sister to my filly)


I like to think I am the type of person that should win scholarships to do things (if more were available) but I still feel like I would be beat out for a scholarship by someone who has more money because they have a better record.
I feel like I'm the type of rider that will hopefully represent the US someday because I will work my butt off and generally I'm a quick learner.

I guess if there was someway the playing field could be leveled that would be cool... or if there was some sort of "camp" I could go to.. or something That Would Be Amazing.
But right now, I'm still struggling to find a way to be a working student someplace.

[OverandOnward]

I thought they had this conversation a few decades ago and the training center at Gladstone was the result. What happened after that? I had to go work for a living and missed that part ... returned to horses and no Gladstone, or I'm not hearing about it.

As for if the young people sent to ride at Burghley were ready or qualified ... I think the answer is to send more of them, not less. You don't learn to play top class sport if you don't play against top class teams, as any college football coach can tell you. It's a worthy experience just to have been in the game with them. Football coaches are thrilled to have booked the game, they expect to their team to learn from it, not win it.


We need HORSES. Then we need MONEY. And, somebody who CARES to manage both.
This is huge. Huge. This is not a sport where the athlete's competition gear all fits into a knapsack with wheels and koozies.


And as I think has been discovered two or three or more times in the past ... the riding talent gene and the money gene are not necessarily linked.

[denny]

When we see who the USET spends so much of its money on, I want to change its name to USCET (United Senior Citizens Eventing).

We know that decade after decade, it`s the riders in their 30s who bring home the bacon.
That decade, about 29-39, is when eventers are at their peak years, sure, a few younger, a few older, but generally.

But to be ready at 30, a rider has to have had tons of mileage before that (Read Gladwell`s 10,000 Hour Rule).

But do we have talent derbies, and do we identify the players who should be on the "minor league teams" the way professional sports teams do?

Do we specifically fund raise (USET Foundation) to put horses under the best young riders, regardless of family wealth?

Do we fund raise to keep elite horses under our proven elite riders---(Severson, etc)?

WWJLGD? What Would Jack LeGoff Do? I know, I know it`s a different era, different world, but still, think about that?

[jn4jenny]

OK, as a parent, I question this statement.

Lisa, maybe I'm not being clear. If you can afford to put appropriate mounts under your son, that is fantastic. Nobody's angry at that fact. The problem is that there are not enough people like you to create a sustainable and large base of young people who are climbing the eventing ranks to the top of the sport WITH your son. Also, your son will have a wonderful experience on his upper-level schoolmaster but it will not necessarily give him depth and breadth of experience. Riding one schoolmaster is a valuable experience, but it does not an eventing professional make.

Read Hey Mickey's post. If your son is every lucky enough to reach the upper levels of eventing, he won't see Hey Mickey there. He won't see the 7 or 8 or 9 other young riders I know of who had the talent and drive but couldn't find the horses or the money. And I know ones who really, really tried--they sold T-shirts and hats with their horse's logo on it, they worked 3 jobs, they rested all of their family's money hopes and dreams on a single upper-level horse that either got injured or didn't quite have the talent. That is heartbreaking, and when those kids finally slink back to college and give up, the future of eventing dies a little more.

And here's where it gets really ugly. There are a lot of folks like you who can scrape together the funds for an upper level schoolmaster horse, and they do so. But at what point does your pocketbook run dry? Do you have the funds to cart him up and down the east coast, doing the events necessary to qualify him for Rolex? Do you also have the funds to enter him in Rolex? How about to send him to the east coast to work with one of the American eventing BNT's? How about to send him to Ireland or England for a year when the American BNT says he's ready for that? How about to send him to the Burghley CCI 4* in England, which puts the cost of going to Rolex to shame? Before we know it, you and your son become one of those sob stories about "running out of money" or "not being able to get the right horse". You will have done everything you possibly could to make this happen for your son, and you will come up empty handed.

In a better system, that wouldn't happen. Your son, and dozens of other young riders, would get the chance to prove themselves on their own merits. They'd be able to access large strings of good eventing horses and build some depth of experience, not just shoot up the levels with a single (albeit safe) schoolmaster. The kids who showed the most talent, drive, and determination would be provided funds for meaningful education opportunities that their parents couldn't afford on their own, like going to Europe for a year.

And the fact that that doesn't happen? Yeah, that makes me angry. Angry is the right word for it. Because I look around and see a sport that I've come to love dying a slow death because its next generation of trainers and pro riders is shrinking. And that matters even to a little lower-level smurf like me, because it's already damn near impossible to find a truly good eventing trainer if you're not in Kentucky or on the East Coast. I shudder to think what it'll look like when my unborn children are your son's age and we're trying to find quality instruction and horses. All of those less fortunate kids who didn't even get a shot at the upper levels, and at least half of the kids like your son who were lucky enough to "give it a go" but eventually had to give up, will be off doing other things. Who will be left to teach all of us Novice dorks how to ride? I don't know, and that's pretty freaky.

[OverandOnward]

And here's where it gets really ugly. There are a lot of folks like you who can scrape together the funds for an upper level schoolmaster horse, and they do so. But at what point does your pocketbook run dry?
And even just one horse is a very single-threaded path, especially for an extended time period. Things happen, at the most demanding level of competition there are many things, age included, that can remove a horse from ul competition even if it would be fine for ll's. Even the top pros with deep strings seem to have run out of horses recently. It's heart-breaking when the one horse carrying all the hopes and dreams can't do the job as expected, and the funds just aren't there for a replacement.

[Tootsie]

Give me a few years Denny, I'll be there.

I was so blessed when I was in college to be going to college and have my parents help me support my horse. I made it to Young Riders for the CCI* (when it was long format) but my horse injured himself when I was trying for the CCI**. Then, not long after that it turned into a career ending injury. So my beautiful horse who was supposed to take me to my first CCI**** became a very expensive pasture ornament.

So I decided to travel a bit internationally. Not as a rider, but as a groom. And I learned more in those three years grooming than I think I could have had I been funded as a rider. I groomed at WEG in 2006 and the Olympics in 2008. (Which, BTW, if they want young riders to understand how to preform under pressure at international competitions, send them as grooms, not spectators).

I returned home a year ago and have slowly started building a business. I have amazingly supportive family and friends that have helped me along. I'm working on getting horses that might have upper level potential to train and students to teach to help fund my way. Besides for the minor setback of breaking my leg last week, I'm hoping to be out and about next spring with some more horses.

But here is my idea. If you want to find young talent, you need to stop looking at Young Riders. Young riders is over when you hit 21. How many people knew at 21 what they were going to do with the rest of their lives? Between the ages of 21 and 25, a lot of young adults are figuring out what to do with their lives. My advise is to look at people who are more to the 25 range. People who might only have horses at novice and training now, but who have started their own business, teaching lessons, and have fully dedicated their lives to training and riding horses. These are the people you should notice who have already shown that they have the drive and dedication to make a life with horses and are just waiting for a horse to come along to give them their big break.

I would feel absolutely blessed to be noticed by a talent squad, but I never will. Because I'm not competing two star. But I'm still going to put my nose to the grindstone and work to get a horse that will take me there.

[scubed]

What about something modeled after the hunter/jumper program. It seemed great from the standpoint that applying was very inexpensive ($25) and participating in the clinics also not too bad ($125).

http://www.ushja.org/EAP/Default.aspx

The best to emerge from the clinic sessions get grants for advanced training.

[yellow rose eventing]

K, as a stupider than dirt kid I feel like I finally have some authority to comment on a thread! here's a topic I know something about!

I'm a young 20-something heading in to my first season competing at the 3* level, on a very nice horse I scraped and scoured for years to get. Most of us at this level have capable horses, who aren't winning because we desperately need help with them. We spend so much time trying to pay for ourselves and this horse that we don't get the proper training attention that we need. Expand the developing rider program and have more summer training sessions. We need a watchful eye. Even if it's not CMP but associate instructors, they will also be able to recognize when one of us comes through and really blows them away.. team material.

Maybe have a panel, a comittee to oversee these riders. We also need help on all fronts, sometimes we can't get ahold of our normal coaches (mine was in europe) and need insight, like competition planning, conditioning, medical and farrier care, there are so many ways to micromanage these athletes, hearing what works from someone who's been in the mix for a while sure would help.

To the kids that are trying to make it to the upper levels, but are feeling stuck.. let me offer some advice. First, get really good. You may think you are good but you need to be better. Go spend a year with a top trainer, go to europe, go somewhere and learn your #*&$. Don't whine and complain that you're in BFE and can't get lessons and that's why you need this sponsor/grant/wad o cash. Just go. That way when a great (but probably weedy, scrawny and at the time scary) horse falls in your lap, you'll be able to ride it. Don't complain you can't find a horse. Find it. Find it in the backyard. At the track. At the auction for god's sake. Read books on conformation and movement. Read books about everything. Can't pay for it? Find a job. Find 2 or 3 jobs. Torrance Watkins used to line up all the cars and tractors by the ring at her farm and turn on the lights because she had to ride in the dead of night.. after work. So do that. The time you spend complaining about your life situation is the same time you could be spending on changing it.

Stay focused and let nothing get in your way. J Woff once said if you think you can, you can, if you think you can't, you're right. Think about it.

[LexInVA]

Well said Miss Ruppel.

[poltroon]

OK, as a parent, I question this statement. From day one with my son's riding, my goal has been for him to be on the most appropriate mount possible for each stage of his riding. Which means right now I am leasing a horse for him to ride, even though we own 2 horses (well, technically a horse and a pony). But of the 2 that we own, neither are the best match for his riding right now. The horse we lease for him is not fancy, but is 100% safe and reliable and is taking my son to his first recognized events at BN, has taken my son schooling over his first novice questions, and has done so every step of the way in a safe, positive, confidence building manner. In fact, every time my son rides this horse, my son is braver and more confident.

But as my son progresses, if he gets to the point where he could actually *do* something with a fancy horse, and it was an appropriate point in his riding to obtain him something like that, and if it was a fiscally responsible purchase as far as the family budget is concerned, absolutely, I would try and obtain him such a horse.

What is wrong with that approach and why does it deserve *anger*, of all things? If anyone wants to direct anger, I recommend watching the warmup of a junior division of a horse trial and look at the kids who are on totally inappropriate and unsafe mounts.

I think that the poster you are referring to was discussing, obliquely, a very specific pair of young riders who had only been eventing a very few years and who did not appear to meet the stated eligibility requirements for the developing rider list, only the unstated requirement of having extraordinary access to funds.

[LisaB]

Yellow rose, YOU ROCK! It seems that you're not afraid to take a leap into the unknown.
Just get your ass out there and do it seems to be the way to go.
I keep thinking of the various youngsters that train with my instructor. Well, and us oldsters too. This thread of responses seems indicative of the types of young riders that are out there. Some seem to obsess on the hardships and can't get over the hump. Others just keep fighting. The fighters are going to win. May not be today, may not be tomorrow, but some day.

Now, how to pick out these fighters from the crowd.
Then give them a boost somehow.

Your basic horse here is not as vanilla as like in the UK where everyone rides jumpers/dressage/eventing. We have a slew of different aspects of riding. Therefore, lots of different types of horses. So, then the pool of horses here gets smaller, harder to weed out. Dilemma #1.
Then to find a trainer that can actually teach you in the upper levels. Heck even our chef can't teach his way out of a paper bag. These qualified trainers are in hot spots. So you have to dive in and move. Not like Europe where everything is relatively closer together. Dilemma #2
Money. Get a damned job. Dilemma #3 solved :D

[RAyers]

You must be hanging out with my kids when I'm not around!

Seriously, that list is exactly what the safety at all cost crowd is driving away. Are we willing as a sport to relax a little? Because if we don't chill out a bit and accept (and even embrace) the dangerous element that is involved in eventing these kids will go elsewhere. One of mine at 15 had her first aerobatics lesson yesterday--how in the world can trotting in a circle and focusing on 2'6" cross rails compete?


Perhaps this was not aimed where I perceived but I will respond because I think there is a large misconception here.

An appropriate "safety at all cost" does NOT drive away kids. That is foolish and you give the perfect example. Do you realize the extent of SAFETY efforts made so your 15 year old could do her first aerobatics lesson?! That industry has MASSIVE safety efforts at all costs efforts are all levels. Millions of dollars every year are spent to increase the safety. Thus use that as an example of how the same can be done in eventing without squashing the thrill.

Almost every element of safety we have in our lives is invisible so we tend to not think it is there. And that is a good safety system.

Reed

[LAZ]

I've had a couple of 'crazy young riders' that I've brought along to the NAYRC's. One of them was on an OTTB when I started with her, she hadn't yet done BN but had guts, timing, a unquenchable desire to ride and ride well, and parents that were supportive. She did one BN event with that horse and then lost him due to choke/complications from choke. Bought a 2nd OTTB that wasn't overly talented, but would jump and was steady, got good miles on him & ran one training. Over that winter another friend & client of mine (a fabulous rider, but an adult that has a real job) had had enough of her hot and difficult Tb and decided to move on. That horse had many Prelim miles and a ton of athletic ability, could win the dressage or be last, and could spook out from under you when trotting by a barrel, but would jump it if you pointed him at it. His nickname was "Spawn of Satan, son of the Devil". The YR sold the steady eddy horse, borrowed the rest from her parents (and paid it back) and bought the horse. The YR got on with him famously, laughed at his foibles, he taught her all about riding well and riding fast & she ran him at Rolex when he was 17 & 18. (This is after the horse nearly died from WNV and came back)

She is not wealthy, her parents are not wealthy--they are farmers. They have an incredible work ethic and the farmers ability to think around corners to make things work. Jenna worked her behind off, found places to keep the horse for cheap or in exchange for chores to go to Aiken and FL, worked off lessons, grew and sold pumpkins, you name it, she did it, and she did it without complaint to pursue her dreams.

You used to be able to go track shopping and buy a horse or two to bring along and sell to help finance your competition horse, but with the tanking market that is not nearly as easy to do.

I have 3 kids at the moment that could be brought along to advanced given the stars all aligning. One of these has a horse that I believe will do it (barring bad luck), but she's going to have to find a way to finance it and she doesn't have nearly the problem solving skills to do it at this point...

I believe that lowering the age for the * kids at the NAYRC to 18 shot a lot of kids in the foot. All of my kids bring their own horses along--unless an incredible amount of luck/support is available it is really hard to get them to a championship qualification by the year they turn 18. One poorly timed foot bruise can kill that dream...

So what is the answer? I don't know--but I do know that a good work ethic, good problem solving skills, an ability to see around edges to come up with ways to fund the effort, parents and coaches that keep the kids well grounded and head in check while they're on the path, a well developed sense of personal responsibility, luck, a geniune respect and admiration for their equine partner are all really, really, important. And did I mention luck?

[scubed]

I also find it interesting that things seem to have changed a lot with the young riders in the last 10 years. 10 years ago, I bought green (often off the track, but sometimes sport bred) horses and offered them to young riders who jumped at the chance and used having access to a "decent" though green horse to go ride with BNTs for a year or more and worked more than one job on top of the work for the trainers to be able to afford to do so. Now, I have a young horse with heaps of talent, ready to go preliminary that I am willing to partially support in a similar situation and no one wants him. Many of the talented young riders do have parents with enough money to buy them nice horses and many others just don't seem to want to figure out how to do the work to pay for the expenses of having a decent horse to ride. Many with less experience than I have state that they are willing to take the horse if I pay all the expenses, but hey if I pay all the expenses I can have him in training with a professional, which is where he is now.

[denny]

To make it big time riders must have at the very least these 4 things:

Talent, Hunger, Horses, and Money

The first two come from within, and are totally their responsibility.

The second two are the theoretical reason for the existence of the USET, USEF, whatever they call themselves this week.

[Melevents]

I could not agree more with Denny's thoughts. I was/am that 25yr old-ish rider who had it all going, and going in the right direction. Growing up in Pony Club and as a working student/slave to Jim Graham for over half my life I understand the grit and determination and have the motivation to go there and be in the ring competing at the international level. I would not trade those torturous 3 hour stirrup-less dressage lessons in the middle of an Alabama summer for anything. They allowed me to be the rider who I am right now. I love it and I want more.

I'm not trying to gloat in my riding ability by any means, I am a very good rider, but by no means great. But I have put forth everything including school, friends, and childhood sacrifices to achieve the level of riding I am at. I am the rider you want to send to represent the United States. I have most of the ingredients to make it, but alas I do need another horse. I had THE horse. He was the one who would have gotten me around Rolex ****, but the year before I could have grasped my hands on that ROLEX cross country course, he broke his leg. Now he is the most beautiful pasture ornament there could possibly be.

I went on to get my A rating on borrowed horses and finished the college thing. Now on my own, I do not want anything other than a horse to compete again. This type of story is so common. Riders like myself are out there, you just have to search for us. We may not have the financial abilities to buy a new horse, or go to lessons with top trainers who will advocate for us, or be able to buy a trailer to even get to those lessons, but we are out there, we are trying. There are still riders who have what it takes and are still under 30 years old, we may not bounce like a 15 year old, but there is still some bouncing left. I realize this is my chance, now if I could only find out where my fairy godmother is hiding with a new horse....... ;)

[gjump]

IThere are still riders who have what it takes and are still under 30 years old, we may not bounce like a 15 year old, but there is still some bouncing left. I realize this is my chance, now if I could only find out where my fairy godmother is hiding with a new horse....... ;)


I'd watch the under 30 comment. I'm 34 and still have plenty of bounce, grit and determination to make it to the top as well. I work 65+ hours a week at two 'real' jobs to afford the 4 nice horses that I have to make it around Rolex.

I decided that to 'make it' in the horse industry might just involve 'not making it' in the horse industry. Thus, I went and got a real job making real money to afford what I have and to achieve the goals that I want.

There are a whole bunch of types like me who may be a bit older but certainly should be on the radar as well.

[tangledweb]

The kid scene in America is broken because of money. In the major eventing countries there is an active pony club eventing scene where kids can compete every weekend for about 1/10th the cost of a entering a USEF recognized BN event.

If you want a kid scene you need to go back to an environment where brave kids can learn some of their own lessons by making mistakes on cheap horses, not an environment where kids on expensive, made horses have round the clock supervision by a trainer whenever near a horse.

How many of the aging top level crop made their name on a made horse? All the biographies I've read have them winning their first big event on a horse the got as a teenager and rode into the ground and built a bond with.

[Melevents]

[QUOTE=gjump;4363223]I'd watch the under 30 comment. I'm 34 and still have plenty of bounce, grit and determination to make it to the top as well. I work 65+ hours a week at two 'real' jobs to afford the 4 nice horses that I have to make it around Rolex.

I was TOTALLY not implying anything, especially anything derogatory, by using that 'under 30' comment that may or may not have offended you. I was just reinstating the 'under 30' phrase that Denny used. I don't care about the age, your age, or my age. There are riders like us who are still out there doing what it takes. You can find us at our jobs behind desks, passing out pills, answering phones, etc. to pay for our horses next set of shoes or bale of hay. More power to us for making it happen.

[vineyridge]

The kid scene in America is broken because of money. In the major eventing countries there is an active pony club eventing scene where kids can compete every weekend for about 1/10th the cost of a entering a USEF recognized BN event.

If you want a kid scene you need to go back to an environment where brave kids can learn some of their own lessons by making mistakes on cheap horses, not an environment where kids on expensive, made horses have round the clock supervision by a trainer whenever near a horse.

How many of the aging top level crop made their name on a made horse? All the biographies I've read have them winning their first big event on a horse the got as a teenager and rode into the ground and built a bond with.

BINGO!

[JER]

For the sake of comparison...

Oliver Townend, winner of Badminton and Burghley, is 27 years old. from his website (http://www.olivertownend.com/home):

Oliver's father rode at Burghley and his mother showed side saddle at County level so not surprisingly success came early for Oliver in the form of a place on the Pony Eventing team and countless show jumping victories. Horses were there to sell on though, producing an inevitable lack of horse power.

Three years as stable jockey to British Team Trainer Kenneth Clawson followed. When Oliver eventually set up on his own he had just a few pounds in his pocket but an unquenchable thirst for winning.

Not just one year with Kenneth Clawson. Three years.

[Jealoushe]

That way when a great (but probably weedy, scrawny and at the time scary) horse falls in your lap, you'll be able to ride it. Don't complain you can't find a horse. Find it. Find it in the backyard. At the track. At the auction for god's sake. Read books on conformation and movement. Read books about everything. Can't pay for it? Find a job. Find 2 or 3 jobs. Torrance Watkins used to line up all the cars and tractors by the ring at her farm and turn on the lights because she had to ride in the dead of night.. after work. So do that. The time you spend complaining about your life situation is the same time you could be spending on changing it.

Stay focused and let nothing get in your way. J Woff once said if you think you can, you can, if you think you can't, you're right. Think about it.

Exactly!!!!! A lot of eventers have made it on back yard finds, that is one thing about eventing that can give you a chance. You CAN get there on a nothing horse with good training and a great bond.

As for jobs, I have 3...because you gotta do what you gotta do to get there.:cool:

[KSevnter]

If you want a kid scene you need to go back to an environment where brave kids can learn some of their own lessons by making mistakes on cheap horses, not an environment where kids on expensive, made horses have round the clock supervision by a trainer whenever near a horse.



Ah yes, but fostering an environment where kids are dependent on their trainers for every single ride was a well-orchestrated move by the trainers themselves. They looked over at the Hunter Ring and saw trainers actually making a living by creating a certain level of trainer dependence and a light bulb went off.

I don't begrudge anyone making a living in this sport but I do think that this dependence, coupled with a societal shift toward instant gratification has given way to wealthy kids on fancy well-made upper level horses and has led to a lack of brave kids making mistakes on cheap horses.

The first time I met young rider eventers going to Florida for the winter I knew the sport I came up in had changed.

It would be interesting to find out the statistics on how many Y/R's now have their H-A or A from Pony Club vs. the 35 and older members of the USET (or whatever it is now).

[retreadeventer]

When we see who the USET spends so much of its money on, I want to change its name to USCET (United Senior Citizens Eventing).

We know that decade after decade, it`s the riders in their 30s who bring home the bacon.
That decade, about 29-39, is when eventers are at their peak years, sure, a few younger, a few older, but generally.

But to be ready at 30, a rider has to have had tons of mileage before that (Read Gladwell`s 10,000 Hour Rule).

But do we have talent derbies, and do we identify the players who should be on the "minor league teams" the way professional sports teams do?

Do we specifically fund raise (USET Foundation) to put horses under the best young riders, regardless of family wealth?

Do we fund raise to keep elite horses under our proven elite riders---(Severson, etc)?

WWJLGD? What Would Jack LeGoff Do? I know, I know it`s a different era, different world, but still, think about that?

Good questions. Put this together with the hunger, talent, money, horse thing and what can we come up with?

A bridge or Developing Rider committee - YR, to the under 25's, to the first time on a team type rider. The committee:
Domestically based but with international experience, coordinates the program, members watch intermediate and advanced divisions nationwide to screen and find candidates.

Developing Rider List is formalized with a definable program, the Pan Am Games as the goal, screening trials published a year in advance. Grants available 2 years in advance of the Pan Ams to Developing Riders on the list, 1 year in advance to 2-yr list members. (You have to be on the list two years to get a European competition grant). That gives the young riders two years to earn money toward this goal, too, or to arrange financial support.

As far as putting good horses under good riders, that's a easy say hard do.
Riders are kind of on their own when it comes to that sort of thing in a democracy, with a free market system, I guess. Having a dictator set down edicts sort of used to work back when the sport was in its infancy but Denny we have to move forward from that. In Jack's day there was no money in eventing and now there is.

[Blugal]

But the question is: WHO will be paying for all this?

As retread says, this is a democracy - and a rich sponsor can choose who they sponsor. They don't need to sponsor someone who is "talented but poor" if they don't want to.

There is something to be said for co-ordination of breeders/owners and riders. To me this would likely be a PR and geographic problem more than one of money? (I think we've had this conversation before.)

I say this, having been privileged to work with amazing and understanding breeders/owners/farm owners and coach - yet I chose to go back to school and get a "real" job. Being a working student for a successful professional in North America has the benefit of learning what it's like to be a professional in North America. Eventing as a living just didn't have the appeal - I was living in the wrong area geographically, and could see, from my coach and other "developing riders" as examples, the sacrifices (in time, money, geography, lifestyle) needed to "make it" - and that is still a huge "IF".

Being a working student in Europe can be amazing - can be horrible - depends on the situation just like it does in NA. Generally you'll need money to go in the first place, and don't forget once you're there, you're competing with a lot of up-and-comers, who are nationals, for those owners/sponsors.

[SevenDogs]

Even Pony Club is less and less a pipeline for youngsters to enter eventing. They now offer specialized upper level ratings in dressage and stadium jumping, and fewer and fewer national examiners have any eventing experience whatsoever. There are still some, but not nearly as much eventing knowledge in National Examiners.

Recently, many upper level ratings (for the traditional track, long considered to support eventing) reward riders with more of a "pretty" hunt seat and penalize what we all would consider a more traditional eventing seat. Sad to see.

[Tamsin]

Threads about money and eventing are so frustrating. Of course everyone is correct in stating that it’s unfair and unfortunate that becoming a successful, recognized young rider depends primarily on funding. But there just doesn’t seem any way around this. How do we identify our best young riders and decide who deserves to be on the funded “minor league teams”? Presumably by observing who rides the most skillfully and consistently wins events. But just getting to the point of being an exceptionally skillful rider and winning events takes a ton of money. Lots of lessons from a decent trainer are very expensive, so are competitive horses (actually any horse at all), entry fees, travel, etc. I’m always a little annoyed to read that our “talented young riders” (Jennie Brannigan, etc.) ought to be funded so that they can train more, have better horses, and spend time in Europe. These recognized young riders are already exceptionally privileged and lucky to have access to the Rich Mommy/Daddy fund. This has to be the case—no teenager or 20-something could have earned enough money to pay for their own riding career and it sure wasn’t free. So what we typically identify as the pool of “talented young riders” already has vastly more support than most (perhaps just as talented) riders will ever see.

If we ever do find funds to support excellent, hardworking riders, I would rather see it go to the truly deserving, i.e., over-25 riders who are committed to eventing professionally and who did NOT benefit from a successful parent-funded Jr/YR career.

[DairyQueen2049]

First, as a former kid, let me just preface my comments by saying that in many ways, kids are stupider than dirt.

They are so often cocky, opinionated, emotional, and wildly ignorant. They don`t take good advise, they know more than god, and they make rash decisions.

BUT---They are brave, fit, agile, hungry, talented, focussed, driven, and they bounce.

They don`t take no for an answer, they leap in where wise men fear to tread, and American eventing needs them right now more than its ever needed anything.

Our Pan Am teams should have an average age of under 30, and for every 40 pluss-er we send abroad, we should send two 20-somethings.

That`s my opinion, and I think I`m right!!


Take a good look at every horse sport in America right now, not just eventing: From QH showing reining to halter, to equestrian camping and trail riding. The average age of the person is very much over 20 yrs of age. There are few youth out there (exception: 4-H, but the 4-H numbers are way down these days too!)

Why?

What we really need is a book series of horsey set, like Mr. Potter. And a tv program like Spin and Marty of old, My Friend Flicka, etc. showing excellent horsemanship and real situations of feeding, mucking, etc.

It isn't just money. I bought my first horse as a dirt poor 14 yr old kid who had to show parents what it was all gonna cost and how I wa gonna pay for it all on my own. And I did. Still do - 30+ yrs later. There is an attrition of desire for horses.

Where is the passion? Where is the desire??

Surely not just us 40+ somethings have it all.

[denny]

Let`s say that the USET eventing "arm" embarked on a true talent search, similar to the way baseball scouts try to sniff out talent.

Say further that there were regional tryouts, with the top (pick a number) from each geographical area invited to a "ride-off", and there was a top dressage trainer, a top show jump trainer, and two or three expert eventers as "talent scouts."

They would watch the riders in all phases, have them swap horses, and then publish their rankings.

"In our opinion, Susie Smith has big league talent, next is Fred Brown, etc, etc----"

This wouldn`t guarantee that the top riders on the list would be given horses to ride, but it would sure get their names out there.

Just an idea of something actually doable, at not huge expense.

[4Martini]

Is the goal to get good kids, or to give a chance to kids without the resources in their own family structure. I see the later as a pretty serious undertaking esp. in this economy.

What if we go after the first. Let's just steal some kids from another discipline. Let's go after the Eq kids. Realistically, the big Eq kids all ride really well - yes they would have to make adjustments, but all in all those kids are some pretty nice riders. Most of them have gobs of $$$$.

Really- how long would it take if you could re-direct Jessica Springsteen and her resources into eventing for her to get on the developing riders list? 1 year, 2 years?

[Ajierene]

It's a great idea, Denny, but I caution spending to much time and energy on anyone under 22. Prior to this age, a lot can happen. A lot can happen after this age as well, but by the time you are 22, you are aiming for something.

You either went to college and chose a career outside of horses.

You have not gone to college and are working on a career with horses.

You have gone to college and want a career with horses.

Your teenage years are spent trying to figure out what you want and sometimes having to listen to parental pressure. What if all you want to do is ride, but your parents insist on college? You get selected for a team, or singled out in the above mentioned program. The only catch is that you are 16 and your parents insist on college. Well, there you go, off to college two years later and all the work the US team did to help you out is out the window.

Or, you think horses are the end all be all at 16, then end up going to college to be near some significant other....or just get distracted by life.

Look at the thread on getting a school coach to OK a student going to the AECs - what is one of the student's big concerns? Her social network is centered around the swim team.....for every child that chooses the AECs, there will be one that chooses swimming. Peer interaction is a big draw for all people, especially students.

That's why I would much prefer to have a "Young Adult" program than a 'young rider' program.

[denny]

I wasn`t thinking of any specific age limit, up or down, just a chance for hungry, hard working riders to fight it out for recognition that then might be able to be levered into a better chance.

The way it is right now, "them as has, gets", and there has to be a better way, I`m hoping.

[fooler]

Back in the 70's & 80's there were separate divisions at specific Horse Trials for those competitors who wanted to be considered for a Team slot. Members of the Selection Committee would watch all competitors but focus on that division.
What about picking specific Horse Trials through-out the US and allow competitors aged say 16-up to be placed in that/those divisions. There should be enough wise observers to watch the competitors and forward their findings to a 'central committee'.

The 'central committee' would make the final decision whether to fund now or continue watching individual competitors.
OR
The 'central committee' could select competitors for regional ride-off's as Denny noted below.

[Thomas_1]

With children what's required is:

self-discipline
strong work ethic
willingness to give things a go that are difficult
great fun activities to engage them and retain interest
peer group support - the more that are involved the higher the level of engagement
trainers (and parents) that recognise that with young people it's also about variety, fun and engagement
supportive adults (parents, trainer, etc etc) There's a lot of taxi driving and forking out money concerned!

[Moody Mare]

I wasn`t thinking of any specific age limit, up or down, just a chance for hungry, hard working riders to fight it out for recognition that then might be able to be levered into a better chance.

The way it is right now, "them as has, gets", and there has to be a better way, I`m hoping.


money & politics.
sad but true.
it's all in how much you have, and who you know.
You can even have a little, but if you don't know the right people to give it to, you lose again!

[hey101]

I wasn`t thinking of any specific age limit, up or down, just a chance for hungry, hard working riders to fight it out for recognition that then might be able to be levered into a better chance.

The way it is right now, "them as has, gets", and there has to be a better way, I`m hoping.

But don't a lot of those people already exist out there? I'm thinking specifically of people like Emily Beshear, who I believe lost her ride on Acorn Hill's horses to PD. Or Kristin Bachman- what is she up to these days? I haven't heard anything about her in ages since after she went off course on Gryffindor at Rolex (heartbreaking). How about someone like Sinead Halpin? I only know her name from the Eventing TV series featuring the O'Connors a few years ago, but she sure seemed young and hungry. Give her a few horses and I bet she'd do really well. Or Clark Montgomery- wasn't he riding Sea Accounts a few years ago? What happened to that pair?

I can think of dozens of other names, even some regular COTH posters... JazzyLady, for example. Didn't she win a 1-star on her horse just recently? But I recall another thread from her about having to "join the real world". the same choice most of us made.

I would think that these "young" people who have already been out there working their ass off are a bit more of a sure bet than the countless teens and tweens who love horses but then college and boys and life and everything else intervenes. Just my $0.02.

[RAyers]

I agree with Denny that we need to get away from "age." In a definition of irony, I was asked on my old eventer to join the Area IX Young Rider team as the coach at the time recognized I was gung-ho and motivated, even on a mediocre horse and was even invited to train with Andrew Popiel in AZ. Sadly, I was a 32 year-old rocket scientist at the time and just barely making enough to support me and the pony. Had there been special divisions or some other mechanism, I most likely would have gone in that direction as it would have allowed me to continue to be in front of selectors while still being able to work full time.

It is hard to balance real world things (life insurance, food, place to live, maybe gas for the car) and expectations of selectors. While yellow rose eventing presents a great rally cry, reality rarely, if ever, supports the ideal. Hence why over night success is usually preceded by 20 years of suffering and pain. And for each star there are 1,000 bodies littering the path.

[sidepasser]

Question for the young riders and hopefuls out there:

Aside from having to support yourselves and take lessons, is it a matter of getting a good horse?

What constitutes to YOU a good horse? A fully trained one ready for the top levels? One with talent and athletic ability that you could not otherwise afford? Raw talent?

I am curious about the "getting a good horse" part.

Would it help if people donated a "good horse" to you? What would you consider "a good horse" to be? It might be helpful if that were explained a bit. Does that mean you want a sponsor to give you the horse, pay for it's training, entry fees, etc? Or would the fact that someone would gift you with a horse with the potential to go far and agree that if said horse broke, they would take horse back and retire it be acceptable?

I am afraid I do not understand exactly what you, the young riders..(not the coaches, trainers, etc.) think in regards to "getting a good horse". I totally understand the training costs for yourself and entry fees, etc. I read so many times that it is said "I need a good horse and can't afford one". What would you do if there were people willing to gift you with a "good" horse? Would you take it? Or would you require the gifter to take on the entry fees, etc.?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

[Speedy]

So are those of you who want to give a horse plus financial support to poor, talented, but largely unmotivated riders going to fund this out of your own board / vet / farrier/ competition budgets? Or shall we just add a line item to the tax returns of those at the upper levels, ahem, upper brackets to cover it?

I guess the days of making one's own horse up are over and it's all because those nasty people with money are preventing it.

[hey101]

I most likely would have gone in that direction as it would have allowed me to continue to be in front of selectors while still being able to work full time.

It is hard to balance real world things (life insurance, food, place to live, maybe gas for the car) and expectations of selectors. While yellow rose eventing presents a great rally cry, reality rarely, if ever, supports the ideal. Hence why over night success is usually preceded by 20 years of suffering and pain. And for each star there are 1,000 bodies littering the path.

Please don't take offense at this- I admire that you can work full-time AND ride at the Intermediate level... truly, kudos and best wishes to you. But to me, this statement that I've bolded seems to say that you WEREN'T hungry enough to do what it takes to ride at that tip-top level. You weren't willing to sacrifice another career to do anything, everything it took to get there.

Believe me, I don't fault you for that. At the age of 21 I consciously chose to get a good job with benefits etc and NOT enter a horsey career with all of its uncertainty and low pay and long hours and blood sweat tears. Do I sometimes think about that choice and wonder if I'd make the same choice now? Yep, I sure do. And I know I"ll forever plonk along at the lower levels, enjoying myself and my horse, maybe one day do as high as a 1-star but also enjoying the other things that my career has allowed me to afford- a farm, traveling, a solid 401K and the prospect of a comfortable retirement etc. As I'm assuming your career has also afforded you those things.

I think the kids (young adults/ 30-somethings whatever) who have been out there for those 20 years of suffering and pain are the ones whose names should be thrown down in front of said "selectors" for whatever grant money is available. Despite the hand-wringing on the other thread, I thought it was great that so many younger and lesser-known names got to go to Burghley this year.

Again, no offense intended with my observations.

[poltroon]

Something that might be really beneficial for some kids and be relatively inexpensive, is to have a travel grant to take two young riders to every international USET event. Not with their horses, but just to travel and hang out with the riders and with the Chef etc, to be a extra set of hands. Make it a lottery: anyone under 25 who has completed a Young Rider event is eligible to go.

[hey101]

poltroon- what a great idea! Those kids would learn a ton, and see first-hand whether that was going to be the life for them. I like the lottery idea too, with the caveat that they have completed a YR event- so that the pool of kids are fairly serious riders who may just want to dedicate their life to "making it". :yes:

[LexInVA]

That idea has some merit.

[carrie_girl]

Let`s say that the USET eventing "arm" embarked on a true talent search, similar to the way baseball scouts try to sniff out talent.

Say further that there were regional tryouts, with the top (pick a number) from each geographical area invited to a "ride-off", and there was a top dressage trainer, a top show jump trainer, and two or three expert eventers as "talent scouts."

They would watch the riders in all phases, have them swap horses, and then publish their rankings.

"In our opinion, Susie Smith has big league talent, next is Fred Brown, etc, etc----"

This wouldn`t guarantee that the top riders on the list would be given horses to ride, but it would sure get their names out there.

Just an idea of something actually doable, at not huge expense.

Wouldn't it be great if we could do a program like this that was sort of a "USEA Idol". Animal Planet has that show Jockeys, what if we could get them (or some other channel) to do an eventing reality show. It could start out as a big open casting call, where the panel of trainers narrowed the field. Each week the riders would have challenges: Week one: Dressage with Steffen Peters, week two: show jumping with whoever, etc....probably continuing on to some competitions, with a rider being eliminated each week and the top 10 riders (or some #) would win grants to go train in Europe for a year. Even if riders didn't get "on the show" they could still be on the USEA's radar. It would also have the added benefit of increasing awareness about the sport. I would watch it!

[TXnGA]

Question for the young riders and hopefuls out there:

Aside from having to support yourselves and take lessons, is it a matter of getting a good horse?

What constitutes to YOU a good horse? A fully trained one ready for the top levels? One with talent and athletic ability that you could not otherwise afford? Raw talent?

I am curious about the "getting a good horse" part.

Would it help if people donated a "good horse" to you? What would you consider "a good horse" to be? It might be helpful if that were explained a bit. Does that mean you want a sponsor to give you the horse, pay for it's training, entry fees, etc? Or would the fact that someone would gift you with a horse with the potential to go far and agree that if said horse broke, they would take horse back and retire it be acceptable?

I am afraid I do not understand exactly what you, the young riders..(not the coaches, trainers, etc.) think in regards to "getting a good horse". I totally understand the training costs for yourself and entry fees, etc. I read so many times that it is said "I need a good horse and can't afford one". What would you do if there were people willing to gift you with a "good" horse? Would you take it? Or would you require the gifter to take on the entry fees, etc.?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.


Training costs, entry fees, vet bills, farrier bills, etc all add up and are a pain to afford- but that is why I work for a living and ride not for a living. I am just as hard working, dedicated (and stupid- i'll explain why) as the next person who chose to be a professional, but I like being able to live in a real house, and not out of my truck. I also worked many hours/ summers with not so BNT as a working student and put in my time cleaning stalls, riding the rank horses, taking care of barns, etc and have decided that is not how I wanted to live my adult life.

I may only be 25, but I still crave it. I crave the eventing scene, I crave the horse trials, and I want to reach the upper levels of this sport. But when I graduated I lost what financial support I had from my parents (which I think is only right) and had to start paying my own way. Which meant I had to take a hiatus from riding/ showing for a few years until I could afford to do it on my own.

Now, I find myself with my 18 year old horse (i had previously competed thru the ** level) and a 3 year old because that is what i have available. I could either spend the money on a new horse, that has been started and a nice mover/ jumper, and not have any money for training, entries, vet/ farrier bills OR I could put that money from the nice new horse into training, entries, vet and farrier bills. And that is what I have chosen to do (the later part). I have been told it is a waste of money putting it into the older horse, but putting the money into him, I can train, compete and increase my riding ability again. We will see how far he is wanting to go, but as soon as the horse decides he wants to hang up his steel shoes, he will retire full time, and then I don't know where I'll be. So I am up at the crack of dawn riding my 2 horses, work all day and come home in the evenings to finish taking care of the horses and farm. I am, what I term, a professional amatuer. I strive to be best at eventing and aim towards the upper levels, but at the same time I work in a corporate job for a living to support it.

If I was given a nice horse (6 years old or so) with some talent, I would put the training, time, money into them to continue on with my goals of competing at the upper levels. Sponsorship would be a PLUS tooo!!!! I would love it if someone would do this to me. PLEASE!!! But how often does this happen to us no longer YR's?

As a side note to the post regarding young riders on "event master" horses. I have seen too many young riders given the wonderful, been there/ done that, **** horses, that they couldn't not ride to save their lives. One rider had, at 16, had 3+ horses bought for them from the upper levels ***/****. The horses packed this rider around until an accident happened or the horse shut down. One of these rider's horses did Rolex and 2 years later had shut down with the rider at prelim (had been moved down from advanced to intermeidate, from intermediate to prelim) and is now a brood mare. And the same with the other mounts. I think that is disgusting. The rider had all the financial backing and nice horses in the world, but forgot the most important aspect of eventing. Learning to RIDE!!! :mad:

[Tootsie]

Right now if someone was willing to give me a horse with upper level potential I would take it with or without support. I would find a way to pay for all of the expenses if that horse would be guarenteed mine through as high as I could take it. A horse like that to help make my name is priceless to me. I would be willing to pay, that is why I work.

Denny, your idea about regional trials sounds pretty good. As long as it is not limited on age or level (meaning I'm a rider who has gone intermediate but only has a horse for training now) than I would attend. Would people have to bring their own horses or would horses be provided?

[Bravestrom]

I have two boys that event - this is my older son's 3rd year and my younger one's 2nd.

Let me tell you the expense - both boys get two lessons a week - one dressage and one jumping not to mention clinics with some top eventers on and off. We built an arena, dressage ring and cross field at home. Both boys have 2 saddles each, show and schooling bridles, clothes, saddle pads - I am sure you can figure out the rest.

Not that I am complaining - just saying - they are great boys and are having a blast - now we are looking at needing more horse power - they are winning at pre-training and now have the knowledge and base to move up.

It takes a lot - not just on their part but on my husband and myself - but we love it.

Check out my boys at www.hotelfun4kids.com/horses.htm

[Jazzy Lady]

I was very lucky to have full support from my parents during school. I was fortunate enough to go to Florida for a few weeks and compete fully in the summer and fall. Yes, I did win a CCI* (long format) and had the time to ride 6 days a week and maintain a 90+ average at school. I had olympic dreams and goals.

Then work got more stressful and I started to have a hard time with money, and i couldn't put as much into it as I needed to, and it reflected in my results. Just as I thought things were starting to turn around for us, I graduated. My cash flow disappeared and I had to quit for the summer. I haven't shown since may and have just enjoyed my horse. I have enough time to devote the same amount as before, I just don't have the money. I can barely afford board and farrier as it is right now... so no showing for me. I have no idea when I'll be able to get back up to preliminary even.

It sucks. No matter how much drive you have, even if you have the talent and the horse, you need the money. There are so many talented riders and horses that aren't even as fortunate as I was to get a nice horse and have financial backing for a few years.

I see many of them. Many riders who would just excel if they had some sort of backing to help them along.

Equine Canada has a grant for * and ** riders, but it's only $1000 and only for 1 rider each division. It still is a great help if you can get it, but many of the riders who get it, don't even compete afterwards.

Question? How much does it cost to take the lessons with el capitain whilst on the developing riders list?

[yellow rose eventing]

too hard.. in my opinion. So much of our success (as riders, and horses) depends on a partnership. Any one rider cannot ride any one horse. They aren't like variables in a math equation. We're all individuals and so are our horses. The problem with this talent search is even if you came across a phenominally talented rider.. and the next rider in the ring was mediocre at best with a very capable horse, you can't just say Hey Susie give your horse to Billy. He's better. We have owners, and sponsors, and whatever to please. Selectors have to take us, horse and rider, as a pair.

That's why it's up to us as riders to GET to that level. Get lessons. Make a horse. Just get there. Flame away, but I don't think selectors should be looking at any riders below the 2* level. The Pan AM's are a 2* and that's the lowest it gets, why seek out a training level rider, spend the time and money to produce them when you could have taken those same funds to turn a struggling 2 or 3* rider into a superstar? Riders... get there and take it upon yourself to get noticed. Make people look. The selectors shouldn't have to seek you out. Get in their face. I just wish there were more opportunities for me to do just that.

[frugalannie]

Denny, a quick question: Back in the day, how were the riders identified who came to Hamilton MA and work with Jack LeGoff? I know a couple personally who absolutely didn't come from big money and worked their way up on horses from, shall we say, "different" backgrounds. How did they find their way to the USCTA and then begin the process of refining themselves and their horses, being matched with other horses, or maybe being washed out?

And I love the idea of riders in the regional talent searches being asked to ride horses other than their own at least in dressage and stadium.

[magnolia73]

Just a thought...
limit the number of horses per rider at a competition.
Say - put a cap at 3.

It incentivises someone like Philip Dutton to develop a network of good riders for his B/C horses while allowing him to focus on A horses. It also makes his rides more valuable (with a limit in place- limit the supply- he's still in demand, and can charge more). A young rider can go work for him and get experience on the horses, make a name. Or say another top rider only has 2 rides- maybe he has a deal and they get the ride on one of his for a while and vice versa.

OTOH, it does limit the best riders.... but in a way, it makes their job easier, and makes them more valuable. And it certainly helps up and comers who now can have access to more options. The owner still gets a horse overseen by the top rider, but perhaps with the "up and comer" the horse gets more time and attention then being one in a string. And of course, the top rider gets training fees and board.

[sidepasser]

Wonder if there is a way to "match" young riders with promising horses that are gifted to the rider? I don't know many young riders who can afford a 10,000 three or four year old.

How would that go over? It seems that it may come down to: spend all the money on a nice horse with potential, or try to "make do" and spend the money on lessons, shows, etc.

Wonder if it would work where the the young riders are chosen based on their talent, and gifted with a nice horse that has potential so they could put their money into lessons, etc?

Just a thought. Breeders would benefit by having their horse "out there" competing, the young horse would benefit from the training and show experience and the rider could concentrate on lessons, hauling, show fees, etc.

As I said, just a thought, but would require refinement on how the young riders are chosen, etc.

[denny]

Jack Le Goff ran "talent derbies".

Tad Coffin, Bruce Davidson, people like that got spotted, then helped.

But----another era----

Now the coach lives 3000 miles away, you have to find your own help.

[Hey Mickey]

Question for the young riders and hopefuls out there:

Aside from having to support yourselves and take lessons, is it a matter of getting a good horse?

What constitutes to YOU a good horse? A fully trained one ready for the top levels? One with talent and athletic ability that you could not otherwise afford? Raw talent?

I am curious about the "getting a good horse" part.

Would it help if people donated a "good horse" to you? What would you consider "a good horse" to be? It might be helpful if that were explained a bit. Does that mean you want a sponsor to give you the horse, pay for it's training, entry fees, etc? Or would the fact that someone would gift you with a horse with the potential to go far and agree that if said horse broke, they would take horse back and retire it be acceptable?

I am afraid I do not understand exactly what you, the young riders..(not the coaches, trainers, etc.) think in regards to "getting a good horse". I totally understand the training costs for yourself and entry fees, etc. I read so many times that it is said "I need a good horse and can't afford one". What would you do if there were people willing to gift you with a "good" horse? Would you take it? Or would you require the gifter to take on the entry fees, etc.?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

To me a good horse is not necessarily a trained horse, but a horse that is trainable, ride-able, athletic, has heart and has a good mind (I think generally anyone's definition of a good horse)

I personally would rather get a young (talented, whatever) horse that I can train with the guidance from someone.

I would rather have someone *give" me the lessons and guidance rather than a "good horse"
I personally have a "good horse" but its really hard for me to get the instruction that I need.

But a horse that we know has the talent for the UL would be fantastic.
And help paying entry fee's would be nice.. but I can scrape together entry fee's when needed. (:

[retreadeventer]

But Denny, here's another "that was then, this is now". Back when Jack was finding the Story Jenks's, and the Ralph Hills, and Gray Goose and Torrances and all, we did not have the trainer/coach support system we now have. Lots of those upper level people today have trainers already, and maybe they can't get any better - maybe they're at their peak already. If that is the case, picking a pair that is as good as they will ever be isn't going to help. There has to be potential there and more than that, the willingness - what you call "hungry".

I think that is what is lacking today. Kids aren't hungry to compete for a losing team. We have to stop being so critical and try to get change and be positive. The more we run down things and the program the less the kids want to be involved.

And I think there is also a lack of horsemanship. Lots of the excuses involve broken horses. Young riders gotta figure out how to keep these horses sound and take better care of them. Stupid mistakes .... (using the wrong shampoo to remove the grease after cross-county forcing a scratch at Rolex?)

[Couture TB]

In response to the complaint about not having horses with talent for the right people here is my response to that.

First a quick bit of a back story. I was one of those kids who worked their butt off. My parents had very little money. I did my first WS position at 15 on an adopted horse. Then they took out a loan to spend what for us was a TON of money ($8,000) on a horse for me to try to do Young Riders. That horse didn't work out but sold him for $20,000 which payed for my next eventer. We purchased him when I was 17 and I was once again a WS. My grandparents helped pay for events, my parents helped, and I trained horses for people during the day and worked at a job at night. I did make it to the upper levels. But then my horse got injured and then I got injured, then I became very very ill.

2 years ago I purchased a horse that has true upper level potential. He is bold to the jumps, schooled Prelim with out batting an eye, and has the movement to win dressage. Unfortuantly I have been to ill to compete him. For a year or so it was hit or miss if I woud make it thru this.

I have tried repeatedly to find a young rider to compete this horse. Have contacted numerous people. You want to know what the answeres were? I would love the ride on him! BUT you need to pay for all his upkeep and shows. Or the other answers are you need to pay for his training and I will pay for shows. Or you need to pay for everything.

When I was younger I would have killed to have been offered a horse to compete. The thought of asking for money wouldn't have crossed my mind. I would have made it work.

So where are all the eager kids who want the talented horse but can't afford to purchase it? I have a horse who no doubt can go all the way. Where is the person to take him there? Because all my money is tied up in medical bills. So what happens with this horse? He has sat for 2 years. And I pray that I am actually getting healthy enough to compete him. And you know what? I don't care if I have to work night shift and days to make it work.

[EventerAJ]

I haven't had a chance to read this whole thread-- I saw it in the beginning when it was 20 replies, then allova sudden it jumped to 4 pages!

I suppose I am one of those "on the verge" types. I have one horse, which I made myself, and we are just to the point where I would consider us an "Advanced horse and rider." My horse may not have the movement to win the dressage, but there is no question she has the jump for a four-star. I am not independently wealthy. My parents helped me out through school, but I worked (managed an UL event barn) the whole time as well. I just turned 25 four days ago, and have been on my own financially for two years.

It certainly is TOUGH to support yourself, your horse, *and* attempt to compete at intermediate/advanced... especially when most UL events are 7 hours away. I am fortunate to have a horsey job, while not paying $$$, it does afford me plenty of time to ride and compete reasonably. More importantly, it allows me to fully 100% care for my horse at a beautiful facility. I do not have the complete freedom or unlimited finances to compete any time I choose, or add/drop a random event at the last minute. My competition schedule is sparse compared to some, and is planned out far in advance; this puts some extra pressure on me to make each event count. I don't get many second chances--it sometimes boils down to I simply can't afford to make mistakes (or have events cancel due to weather...:sigh:) because it screws up my entire season.


I would love to have the access, financial support and sponsorship that some YRs were given. But I definitely feel like I must prove myself and earn it; because of this mentality, I know I automatically put myself behind certain others (perhaps those with a more "entitled" sense of being). I don't toot my own horn very often, I prefer to let my accomplishments and others speak for me. :)

I think the talent search is an interesting idea, but I worry that it turns into a beauty pageant type ordeal, perhaps like the BigEq. Good riding should definitely be rewarded, but I think the future of our sport is equally dependent on all-around good riding *and* good horsemanship. It's one thing to ride a horse...and it's another thing to DEVELOP that horse, mentally/physically. That ability to create positive progress is how you build future horses, and future riders. I don't know how you can judge and reward this quality in a single talent contest. It's something you notice over time, a series of smart decisions and improvement in the horse.

This is the problem I sort of see with the current YR system-- some just go out, buy nice horses, ride nicely, win ribbons. That's all fine and great. But can that crop of YRs, who maybe didn't have to struggle much to "make" a horse, can they develop a horse on their own? Can they teach the next generation of riders to develop a horse? Especially with the disappearance of the LF, this could be a big gaping hole in our American system. We have many great trainers here NOW (though you could argue they aren't as good as "Back Then"), but what happens 10 years from now?

[Eventingjunkie]

My daughter is getting ready for her first CCI*. She rides several times a week with an Upper level Trainer. She also has a talented horse that will hopefully take her to the CCI** level, however, he will probably be too old for them to go Advanced together. It would be ideal if we could find someone with an up and coming horse (Training ready to go Prelim) that wants someone to bring it along. We would be willing to pay for monthly expenses if the owner would pay competition fees. It seems fair, since the owner can sell the horse at any time. In the mean time, we will look for a younger horse, maybe a nice moving OTTB for her to bring up the levels. Does a plan like this seem unreasonable?

[RAyers]

.... The selectors shouldn't have to seek you out. Get in their face. I just wish there were more opportunities for me to do just that.

Define "Get in their face?" Because selection should, in my opinion NOT be about politics and "getting in their face" to me screams politics. Now, if you are suggesting that by being successful at the levels and showing positive point totals through the year, as "getting in their face" then I agree. But the current system is already a popularity contest and look where it has gotten us.

Reed

[JER]

On wanting it badly enough....

Back in the 1980s, the great motorsport writer Peter Egan wrote a memorable column for Road & Track called "Dreams Delayed." It's an account of a conversation between two racers and a wannabe racer -- and how we do exactly what we really want to do. We make the sacrifice, find the time, find a way -- if it's what we really want.

You can read it on page 7 of this pdf (http://www.elcc.org/archive_newsletter/1986/LotusLines_1986_SepOct.pdf).

Highly, highly recommended. (It's not even a page long and I'd excerpt here, but it's a scan .)

[poltroon]

My daughter is getting ready for her first CCI*. She rides several times a week with an Upper level Trainer. She also has a talented horse that will hopefully take her to the CCI** level, however, he will probably be too old for them to go Advanced together. It would be ideal if we could find someone with an up and coming horse (Training ready to go Prelim) that wants someone to bring it along. We would be willing to pay for monthly expenses if the owner would pay competition fees. It seems fair, since the owner can sell the horse at any time. In the mean time, we will look for a younger horse, maybe a nice moving OTTB for her to bring up the levels. Does a plan like this seem unreasonable?

On the other hand, by competing the horse, it could go lame at any time, creating substantial risk for the owner.

It depends, too, on how much the horse brings to the table - is the horse young and green, or is the horse giving the rider experience?

For perspective, the kids riding in the BigEq medal-maclay classes pay thousands - maybe tens of thousands - to lease a horse just for the finals. And they pay all expenses.

[advmom]

We here in North America should remember that for the most part the European development programs are funded with lottery money.
The Young up and coming American riders have access to alot of grant money and supportive programs, Canadian riders have no such programs and very little support Nationally, even for those riders who can make it to the *** successflly.
To ride with our National coach fulltime means living in another country!
Both countries would be served well to reevaluate how the money they have access to is spent when it comes to developing the next generation of rider

[frugalannie]

Jack Le Goff ran "talent derbies".

Tad Coffin, Bruce Davidson, people like that got spotted, then helped.

But----another era----

Now the coach lives 3000 miles away, you have to find your own help.

Is what you are proposing a sort of regional talent derby? what did a talent derby consist of?

And I really like the idea of limiting the number of horses one person can ride per competition from a safety perspective as well.

[denny]

What I REALLY think is right in the Chronicle back issue section of Between Rounds, the 4 articles starting with "Why do Fritz and Heidi Beat Sally and Billy?' They are all aimed at "getting what it takes", and are so titled, as I remember.

American kids could be good enough IF they are brave and hungry enough.

Most of them aren`t, which is why we have a bunch of riders on the USET who are in their late 30s to early 50s, not exactly the vintage of 27 year old Mr. Townend!

A couple of our riders could be his parents!!

[pinkdiamondracing]

I know one rider who fits the description of Denny's to a T-----Sara Mittleider
She's talented-- remember she's the YOUNGEST rider to EVER complete Rolex--- finished 20th at the tender age of 18--not to mention she's managed to complete it and finish in the top 20 three years in a row.
She's hungry-- she rides, teaches, rides,teaches,-- all to afford to hit a few upper level events per year-- all done from the proverbial black hole of eventing-- Idaho.


She's got the horse to take her all the way--do you remember El Primero??? The horse nobody wanted because he was too small!!!!???? He has run around Rolex 3 years in a row like it's a walk in the park, even winning Best Condition one year. He missed his chance at the 2008 Olympic Trials because of someone's stupid dog. ( He has since been attacked again only this time HE came out the winner!!!!!) No more Dog!!!



She lacks only one basic thing that keeps her from being truly one of the greats in this sport---$$$$$$$$-- her bank account is far from bottomless, which makes getting other upper level horses a challenge, she's going to have to make them, which she has proven through Tony that she is more than capable of.



All I can say is -- Tony is back, he is sound, and they are poised to make his great comeback this fall!!! Keep your eyes on them-- they are headed back to the top!!!

[crittertwitter]

Wow, Denny, I want to give you a hug. It's nice to see a post on the positive side of youth (aside: especially here, among the rampant anti-YR sentiment)!

Ya know, the juniors who Love it really can make all the difference. My sister (Anyway, sorry Hux. It embarasses her so badly when I post about her. :winkgrin:)came to live with me 5 years ago when I was 25 and she was 15. Most of what she has done would not have happened - because this sport is so devourous of time and finances - if she hadn't pushed for it like her life depended on it. She has made me grow. A hundred or two or three kids like that... who push to do the LFs... who just have to event or they'll be shredded by lions... they are the lifeblood of the sport. It's what kids do. Thank God we aren't born "mature."

[M. Owen]

I unfortunately don't know how to use the quote functionality, but in response to whether it is reasonable for an up and coming rider to get use of a talented horse and pay monthly expenses while the owner pays competitiion expenses, I think it all depends on what the rider and horse each bring to the table.

Off the cuff, my first thought was that the rider should pay all expenses. However, if the rider is experienced and is adding a lot to the horse training wise, I can see some sort of arrangement where the expenses are shared between owner/ rider. I think every situation would have to be evaluated independently to measuer the pros/ cons to each party involved and documented as some sort of business arrangement or lease agreement. If I were a horse owner, I'd be very careful about this type of situation, because at the end of the day if the horse is injured the owner is left holding the bag.

I come from a h/j background, and find it very interestng that this very same conversation happens on our side as well. The USHJA sponsored a developing riders program this year with clinics that were relatively inexpensive to try to get talented riders noticed. Riders had to apply to participate and I believe had to include a riding video. Maybe this type of program for eventing could act as the talent derby Denny mentioned. I would, however, expand the age bracket of participants. I think the USHJA program only allowed up to 21 yrs old. Perhaps this type of program could serve as a way for talented riders to network with established BNRs/ farms for working student or groom positions to obtain training and higher level exposure.

[RAyers]

What I REALLY think is right in the Chronicle back issue section of Between Rounds, the 4 articles starting with "Why do Fritz and Heidi Beat Sally and Billy?' They are all aimed at "getting what it takes", and are so titled, as I remember.

American kids could be good enough IF they are brave and hungry enough.

Most of them aren`t, which is why we have a bunch of riders on the USET who are in their late 30s to early 50s, not exactly the vintage of 27 year old Mr. Townend!

A couple of our riders could be his parents!!


I want you to also define "hungry enough." Is it a do it at all costs effort, to the point of having hundreds of folks who gave up school, have no support structure, who have completely sacrificed everything to simply ride on a team? If so, isn't that the same mind-set of a person who is willing to sacrifice a horse on course to simply get a good score, who is not a thinking horseman?

Or is hungry enough, a person willing to be thoughtful, and considerate in exactly how they will get from A to B and still be a contributing member of the industry?

I for one don't want to support an idiot who can out ride the world but is still an idiot about the horses, business, people, etc. nonetheless.

Reed

[NMK]

Here's on out of the box thought. What if there was some sort of eventing "college"--I am not saying go to a classroom, but some sort of structured program that included stints as a groom, riding timber horses, race horses, high level dressage horses, completing the ICP program, etc. Imagine, a summer galloping for Matz, a winter grooming down under, etc. I am sure these opportunities can be arranged (especially when the talent is free). With some sort of structure like this, we might be able to find the really dedicated folks (any age) that are willing to set aside the immediate future for a better one.

Take it a step further, and you could get breeders involved (breaking babies and providing horses as it would promote their programs). Have the students help the re-homing groups re-train---give them access to horses they might not otherwise find.

Another thought--if I had a talented horse, I would consider free leasing it to a "senior" that has made it through the eventing college. There are individuals in this sport who do have nice horses but neither the time, money or inclination to ride them at the top of the sport.

Part of the problem is that if you want to be a pro in this business, you have to clinic and teach. All that leads to time away from developing your own horses. And if you travel, you won't have a steady client base because of the inconsistencies each week of being there, or not.

So the question is still the same, who would fund it? I suggest making it a USEF college situation, for all disciplines.

[vineyridge]

I've recently learned that each German state and its associated verband has such a riding "college" in place. Only they also have short weekend programs for beginners and every level in between. They have long programs to teach horse starting and longer ones for H/J and Dressage. Not sure if they cover eventing though. These riding schools are open to the public; and they are relatively inexpensive. A two week course with accommodations is about $1000, IIRC, but the accommodations might be in someone's home. I believe they provide the horses.

Might be a good thing to send some of our younger riders to Germany for one of those programs. Or try and emulate something like that here with a re-establishment of a Gladstone equivalent.

One huge difference between H/J and eventing is the college programs for competition riding. Someone like Hayley Jayne can get a degree and still ride NCAA or ISHA.

We also need an eventing Brentina Cup for rising professionals, if we don't have an equivalent. Age limit for that might be twenty-five, but for eventing it might go higher.

[Speedy]

It would be ideal if we could find someone with an up and coming horse (Training ready to go Prelim) that wants someone to bring it along. We would be willing to pay for monthly expenses if the owner would pay competition fees. It seems fair, since the owner can sell the horse at any time.

Since you asked - yes, it is unreasonable. If someone gives your daughter a horse to ride, you should be grateful for that and she should have the motivation to figure out how to pay competition fees, which, frankly, aren't all that much in the grand scheme of things.

The owner may be able to sell the horse out from under your daughter, but your daughter has, in the interim, benefited greatly from the additional experience of riding, training on and competing another horse...all while the owner risks your daughter's mismanagement of the horse or plain bad luck, either of which could lead at any moment to a lame horse that the owner is then unable to sell.

I'd also add that a Training horse that is ready to go at Prelim is NOT a horse that needs to be "brought along"...that expression, for me, refers to a horse that a rider will make herself, not to a horse that is just waiting for that lucky rider to take it up the levels, without any risk that the horse may not have the mind, talent or athleticism for it - and without any real financial skin in the game.

[JER]

We have some talented, determined young adult riders but the current team coach does not seem to favor them.

Sara Mittleider is one of them. What she and her family have done from a remote, non-eventing area is really commendable. If Sara lived in the equivalent remote area of the UK -- Scotland -- she'd be about ten times closer to events and she'd find it much easier to get rides on good horses.

Nathalie and Michael Pollard are two more. Michael took several years off from riding to work in the real world to fund his riding. Now, at 28, he's back with a good string of horses and a lot of ambition. He should have been at Burghley and he has the ability and the brain to be as good as any top rider out there.

Look at Paul Tapner, who had a terrific weekend at Burghley. He's in his mid-thirties now and moved to England ten years ago to pursue his dream. He got his BHS certification, built a sales business with his wife and has steadily worked toward earning a place on the Australian team. He made the elite squad this year -- after ten years of trying. And it wasn't just about his competition record -- the Australian selectors first encouraged riders to move to the UK, then decided to favor Australia-based riders. Which is really frustrating if you'd already made the move to the UK. But he's persevered and turned into a world-class rider with a good string of horses and a solid group of owners. How many people would have stuck out all the years of disappointment and uncertainty?

(Again, I recommend reading the Peter Egan column I posted previously. It is about exactly this topic.)

[Couture TB]

My daughter is getting ready for her first CCI*. She rides several times a week with an Upper level Trainer. She also has a talented horse that will hopefully take her to the CCI** level, however, he will probably be too old for them to go Advanced together. It would be ideal if we could find someone with an up and coming horse (Training ready to go Prelim) that wants someone to bring it along. We would be willing to pay for monthly expenses if the owner would pay competition fees. It seems fair, since the owner can sell the horse at any time. In the mean time, we will look for a younger horse, maybe a nice moving OTTB for her to bring up the levels. Does a plan like this seem unreasonable?

Quite honestly yes. Not to sound rude. The owner is out a horse if the animal gets injured or killed at competition. And trust me these horses with real potential are not cheap. These are 5 figure animals. In the case of my guy I purchased him with another woman just to afford his price. She never even saw him, but trusted my judgement and forked out half the money. If someone is offering a truly talented horse, not just a fresh off the track animal that is well built but who knows if it will be brave XC, then what is the big deal about paying for all the expenses? You are being given a horse to ride and use as your own. If you owned the horse you would be paying for all that any way. This way you are getting the horse without the extra 5 figures added in.

[4Martini]

I really like the idea of limiting the # of horses a rider can ride. I agree that it cause them to have more of a "team." Which would give an opportunity to younger riders. What if ICP Level 1 or whichever is the top level required apprentices competing at a certain level.

I do think this would open up more opportunities for those really willing to work hard. They would not become rich doing it- but they would have a shot.

[TB_eventer]

I love the idea of an "eventing college." What I like so much about how that idea was presented is that students of this college would get experience in different areas of the industry, learn to be a well rounded horseman, and come away with a sense of perspective. If you're only ever a rider, then you only see things from a rider's perspective.

I also think a good part of a program like this (and maybe a way to help fund it) is for the students to teach lessons about concepts that they have learned from the college, and understand. Their students pay the college for the lessons and the instructor gets a cut. Maybe each student does this instructing for 6 months? a year? You know that when you can teach a concept, you really understand it.

I hope that made sense. It was a beautiful thought in my head :D

Also, in response to sidepasser: To me, a good horse is one that has potential for the upper levels, and has a good brain. I don't mind doing the work or paying the expenses, but finding that type of horse with limited resources isn't all that easy. The horse that I have now (OTTB) has shown me this. Decent built, moves decently, nice to deal with, LOVES to jump, and HATES dressage. He tenses up like something is about to kill him, and I can't figure it out. Point him at a jump (any kind - stadium, xc)? Calms down, ears pricked - loves life. I'm going to sell him as a jumper, because that's what he wants to do. He would have made a good eventer when dressage didn't matter as much.

Potential, and good brain. More than that is spectacular.

Question for the young riders and hopefuls out there:

Aside from having to support yourselves and take lessons, is it a matter of getting a good horse?

What constitutes to YOU a good horse? A fully trained one ready for the top levels? One with talent and athletic ability that you could not otherwise afford? Raw talent?

I am curious about the "getting a good horse" part.

Would it help if people donated a "good horse" to you? What would you consider "a good horse" to be? It might be helpful if that were explained a bit. Does that mean you want a sponsor to give you the horse, pay for it's training, entry fees, etc? Or would the fact that someone would gift you with a horse with the potential to go far and agree that if said horse broke, they would take horse back and retire it be acceptable?

I am afraid I do not understand exactly what you, the young riders..(not the coaches, trainers, etc.) think in regards to "getting a good horse". I totally understand the training costs for yourself and entry fees, etc. I read so many times that it is said "I need a good horse and can't afford one". What would you do if there were people willing to gift you with a "good" horse? Would you take it? Or would you require the gifter to take on the entry fees, etc.?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

[denny]

The actual reality is that what "we" think doesn`t amount to 2 cents.

It`s what CMP thinks, the O`Connors think, Jim Wolf thinks that gets done.

The rest is just talk.

[mpollard]

There is certainly a problem with getting the right riders horses and training. If I had a say I believe we need to concentrate in two areas:

1. improving the function of the USET

The uset in the future needs to be concerned with a few main objectives; talent identification, getting those identified good guidance/training so that they may become elite riders, providing european experience to the current elite A and B squad, and maintaining good team management(this should include the ability of the manager to fundraise). I believe these objectives can be met, but it will require substantial change. I dont think the organization is quite ready for that.

2. Producing US bred horses for our top riders and future elite to ride

We must begin to purpose breed event horses in the US. We already have a fantastic foundation in that we have the best TB broodmare stock in the World. The horse of the future must still majority TB( if you havent already tried a short format three or four star without alot of TB blood there is no reason to have the experience), but we need to add in a bit of something that produces more consistent scope and movement. Irish and French horses I believe are the best to add but some dutch and german horses fit the bill also. I have often wondered if it would be possible to set up a sister organization to the USET that concentrates on organizing our breeders, purchases stallions, and providing a pathway for these horses to end up in the most capable hands.


I do not believe that the USET will ever be able to provide horses like they once did. It will be up to someone else to do that.

[Eventingjunkie]

Quite honestly yes. Not to sound rude. The owner is out a horse if the animal gets injured or killed at competition. And trust me these horses with real potential are not cheap. These are 5 figure animals. In the case of my guy I purchased him with another woman just to afford his price. She never even saw him, but trusted my judgement and forked out half the money. If someone is offering a truly talented horse, not just a fresh off the track animal that is well built but who knows if it will be brave XC, then what is the big deal about paying for all the expenses? You are being given a horse to ride and use as your own. If you owned the horse you would be paying for all that any way. This way you are getting the horse without the extra 5 figures added in.

First off, if the kid wasn't adding to the value of the horse, I would never presume someone would be interested in such an offer. However, a lot of time, money, and a talented rider working with a talented trainer would be added to the equation. So, it is still in the kid's best interest to get a baby or OTTB, and bring it along. In the mean time, there are people paying for their horse to be trained and competed by less talented "professionals".

[Blugal]

It was recently put very well to me.

I want to do it on my own terms.

That includes a paying non-horsey job, owning my own horse, making all my own decisions on management, and having the ability to sell the horse if it's not working out.

In the context of the above posters re: someone providing the horse - need to look at the risk/reward analysis. In my case I am taking all the risk, and stand the chance to lose big time or to reap big time.

I'll hope to walk in the footsteps of Reiner Klimke and Hinrich Romeike. But if I don't, I will enjoy my hobby and my passion, and hopefully I won't have the pressure of having to win in order to feed myself.

[JWB]

Was writing a long post but figured it's better summed up like this...

Yes, we should help out the up and coming kids but the parents are going to have to take on a fair amount of responsibility.

I don't think it's feasible to pay expenses for kids to go out showing just because they have talent and really want it - they're going to need to have shown a lot of sacrifice and work too. I think people need to reach prelim level on their own before looking for any sort of "team building" hand out.

If you can't afford a nice horse, let's make working student positions available. Doesn't fit in with your college career schedule? We'll see you when you're 21 and able to devote your full attention to riding.... because quite frankly TONS of us talked about our future careers as upper level eventers back in pony club and quite frankly, most of us stopped riding after school to get on with careers (outside of horses) and families. I don't think we were the people this program should be helping.....

Help the one who ran prelim on her $800 TB/Morgan cross and decided to open a boarding stable/lesson barn instead of going to school. Look at it as a college scholarship for the people who chose a horse career over college .

[subk]

Personally I think everybody is looking at the wrong age group. How many times have we talked about the importance of a "base?" Hmmm? The base for 20-30 year olds is the 10-20 year olds. Broaden the base and you will increase the number of 20-30 year olds.

Right now kids (real kids, not young adults who haven't grown up yet!) don't get sucked into eventing until they are in their later teens. Pony Club which has long been the major feeder to eventing seems to be drying up and/or looking in different directions. Thirty years ago I didn't know a single soul who was under 20 that wasn't eventing because Pony Club pointed them in that direction. Now I'm not sure I know any kids that do both.

If we care about eventing then we need to care about the fertile ground that produces eventers. Not riders, but eventers, kids that have the fundamental basis in knowledge that PC provides. The USEA could reinvent the wheel and start some programs for children or they could do the smart thing and make a better effort to team up with Pony Club and help redirect that organization back to its eventing roots. In terms of "roots" it is not by happenstance that the oldest US Pony Club and the longest continually running HT are in the same place!

[subk]

There is certainly a problem with getting the right riders horses and training. If I had a say I believe we need to concentrate in two areas:

2. Producing US bred horses for our top riders and future elite to ride

We must begin to purpose breed event horses in the US. We already have a fantastic foundation in that we have the best TB broodmare stock in the World. The horse of the future must still majority TB( if you havent already tried a short format three or four star without alot of TB blood there is no reason to have the experience)...
Michael I think this is a fabulous point, and probably deserves it own thread! We have a fantastic to broodmare foundation, but I've found few people want to look beyond the WB label and breeding to understand the TB bloodlines. If we understood our TB population and its capacity to produce sport half as well as the Europeans understand their TBs it would go a long way to producing better horses. I listen to breeders and I wonder if we've gone a bit WB/designer label crazy because so many are seemingly disinterested in the TB blood so intricately wound into their WBs.

[mpollard]

Good point about Pony Club. Notice that in England it is still very strong. Are there any numbers available for recent ponyclub membership in the US?

[JER]

The US also lacks Euro/UK-style pony eventing for the real kiddies. The FEI Pony Championships in Europe draws teams from all over.

Video of Necarne Pony CCNP** (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdhA9L-S0vM).

[SevenDogs]

Pony Club numbers are declining nationwide. The National Organization is trying to address it with the specialty ratings and increase in age limits, but seem to lack the vision or ability to address some of the real issues, namely politics. Yup, politics have always been a problem in Pony Club (as they are in all large organizations), but there are some real issues (particularly in the upper levels rating programs) and I think kids have so many options they (and their parents) are less likely to put up with it?

I used to be a big Pony Club advocate (My trainer is an A Grad and he is a big advocate), but now I rarely (if ever) recommend it to the kids at the barn. I've seen too many problems with unqualified instructors or worse, unqualified National Examiners for upper level ratings, and too many adults on power trips who forget it should be about the kids, NOT the adults.

There are still a lot of great people in Pony Club, but there are enough that shouldn't be there, to make it hard for kids who thrive on fairness. It's decline is sad because it has the potential to be a great organization. We still have kids at our barn in Pony Club who actively event, but the numbers are dwindling for those that do both.

[TXnGA]

The US also lacks Euro/UK-style pony eventing for the real kiddies. The FEI Pony Championships in Europe draws teams from all over.

Video of Necarne Pony CCNP** (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdhA9L-S0vM).


Loved the video. Maybe we should all be riding ponies :D

[adriana790]

Personally I think everybody is looking at the wrong age group. How many times have we talked about the importance of a "base?" Hmmm? The base for 20-30 year olds is the 10-20 year olds. Broaden the base and you will increase the number of 20-30 year olds.

Right now kids (real kids, not young adults who haven't grown up yet!) don't get sucked into eventing until they are in their later teens. Pony Club which has long been the major feeder to eventing seems to be drying up and/or looking in different directions. Thirty years ago I didn't know a single soul who was under 20 that wasn't eventing because Pony Club pointed them in that direction. Now I'm not sure I know any kids that do both.

If we care about eventing then we need to care about the fertile ground that produces eventers. Not riders, but eventers, kids that have the fundamental basis in knowledge that PC provides. The USEA could reinvent the wheel and start some programs for children or they could do the smart thing and make a better effort to team up with Pony Club and help redirect that organization back to its eventing roots. In terms of "roots" it is not by happenstance that the oldest US Pony Club and the longest continually running HT are in the same place!

I'm not an eventer (but I wish I was) so this is coming from an outsider...

In my experience, Eventing is not easy to get involved in. I guess living in an area where it's popular probably helps a lot, but the rest of us don't know where to start. It's easy to find a hunter trainer and get started there, same with AQHA/APHA. But eventing is like its own obscure little world, and getting into it is difficult.

I'm a college freshman now but I've wanted to event for a long, long time. I looked for trainers for a while, but I couldn't find any in my area. So either there weren't any around or they were a well kept secret. I (along with some other people) tried to find a Pony Club in the area multiple times but there didn't seem to be one anywhere nearby.

So while eventing was something I always wanted to do, I had no idea where to start and I still know people from my area who are younger than me and are in the same dilemma. I got stuck in 4-h, which is a very good program, but in terms of horses where I was, it meant AQHA type stuff, which doesn't interest me in the least. I know one girl in particular who would love a chance at joining Pony Club, or riding with a good eventing trainer. She has limited resources financially, but she works harder than anybody I know. If there is any eventing where I'm from though nobody knows about it, so back into the 4-h bubble she will go.

I've been riding for about 10 years and I can honestly say that I've never personally known anybody who events. I do however, know people who would like to. So if you're worried about producing eventers, then get out there and make it more accessible to the average horseback riding kids. You would be surprised at how many hardworking, talented kids are stuck at the local 4-H shows pretending that they like english pleasure and HUS.

Personally, I'm planning on transferring to an instate school next year so that I can afford to find a good eventing trainer and do what I've been wanting to do for years. But man, it sure would have been nice if I could have been in Pony Club.
:)

[JER]

Another thing to think about: is eventing really a good career?

Put another way, are professional eventers happy with their lives and work?

I often wonder about this because I meet/see an alarming number of pros who seem quite miserable, especially as they get older.

Maybe the better model for the future of the sport is the Klimke-Romeike model. Get a professional education that allows you -- as Blugal says -- to ride on your own terms.

Klimke said he never became a professional because it was important to him to ride the horses he wanted to ride, not the horses he had to ride. Think about this for eventing -- safety is so important in our sport that a rider is taking considerable risk riding a horse they don't really want to ride.

[SevenDogs]

The actual reality is that what "we" think doesn`t amount to 2 cents.

It`s what CMP thinks, the O`Connors think, Jim Wolf thinks that gets done.

The rest is just talk.

Truer words were never spoken and, unfortunately, the narrowing of the pipeline by these folks has created our current situation. We have very talented riders in this country that know they have absolutely NO chance to ride for the U.S. because the selectors won't even consider them.

I know of several riders with "going horses" that have been encouraged to sell/place their horses with the "select few" to "see how far they can go" and these are Advanced Level riders! Why not encourage the riders that brought these horses up the levels to develop further and be the future?

CMP does not even pretend that anyone but those on his favorites list are going to be considered. He has (begrudgingly) been forced on occasion to add riders to that list because the sheer peformance demanded it. Gina Miles was never first on Mr. Phillips list and yet, she is the one who performed the best last year. Becky Holder clawed and scratched her way onto the list, as have a very few others.

A good program (a winning program) will always be"inclusive" because those folks recognize the bigger the base, the more you have to choose from to seek out and develop the best riders. Our current program is quite the opposite, and it shows.

[eventmom]

As a mom of two young eventers I am trying to help develop, I just wish there was somebody without an agenda who would tell me which horse my kids need, and when! I don't come from horses, and I have been very lucky so far. But its always a question of what next!

[poltroon]

Truer words were never spoken and, unfortunately, the narrowing of the pipeline by these folks has created our current situation. We have very talented riders in this country that know they have absolutely NO chance to ride for the U.S. because the selectors won't even consider them.

I know of several riders with "going horses" that have been encouraged to sell/place their horses with the "select few" to "see how far they can go" and these are Advanced Level riders! Why not encourage the riders that brought these horses up the levels to develop further and be the future?

Though I'm not a CMP fan, that hardly started with him. I understand it was true in the LeGoff years as well.

[SevenDogs]

Though I'm not a CMP fan, that hardly started with him. I understand it was true in the LeGoff years as well.

Doesn't make it any better....

At least in the LeGoff years, the horses and their welfare had some priority. I can't see handing my horse over to a program where it's leader will just tell me to "toughen up cupcake" if my horse dies under one of his riders.

[TB or not TB?]

Another thing to think about: is eventing really a good career?

Put another way, are professional eventers happy with their lives and work?

I often wonder about this because I meet/see an alarming number of pros who seem quite miserable, especially as they get older.

Maybe the better model for the future of the sport is the Klimke-Romeike model. Get a professional education that allows you -- as Blugal says -- to ride on your own terms.

Klimke said he never became a professional because it was important to him to ride the horses he wanted to ride, not the horses he had to ride. Think about this for eventing -- safety is so important in our sport that a rider is taking considerable risk riding a horse they don't really want to ride.

I think this might be one of the most insightful posts on this subject. I'm not sure how to express my thoughts on this matter exactly without bungling it, but I'll give it a go. There was a thread a while back on the WS system and how it's a bit "broken" in regards to training our up and comers. IE, survival of the fittest and creating hardened people instead of horsemen. Same goes for those who have been shredded in a meat grinder on the path to get noticed. What is it that we want from our stars? Is the same drive to get ahead at all costs counter productive to our cry for good horsemanship? Are we dismissing people who might have the other half of the equation? A fire in the belly is one thing, a do-or-die attitude is another. I feel like we might be encouraging the wrong one.

Until I was a WS for a few months, I did want to compete at the international level. I don't anymore. I still want to work with horses, but I have seen what the "BNT" lifestyle does to people. Of the ULRs I have met, those without money troubles appear no happier than those with. Same for LLRs, for that matter. To whoever said they want to ride at the upper levels on their own terms - that, I believe, is what we are missing in this country, and why there are not so many up and comers. The ULRs are riding on others' terms, whether it be the Chief, sponsors, job, parents, etc. This is a tough pill to swallow. It doesn't make for star horseman, it makes for desperation and giving up strengths. Seems that would keep a lot of those youngsters who have the drive and heart out of the running.

[Hey Mickey]

Several people, The O'Conner's, Denny, Phillip Dutton, and I'm sure there are more, all offer eventing camps throughout the year.

What if they "gave" a spot in the camp to kids like me.
Say you send a video, write a essay explaining why you deserve the spot at the camp (for free or at a really reduced rate) and what you need help in the most, etc.
Sort of like a scholarship.

I know I would do anything to be able to ride in a camp. And say, if I could win a spot in the O'Conner's camp this December I would find a way to get there no matter what.

[Brown Horse]

It was recently put very well to me.

I want to do it on my own terms.

That includes a paying non-horsey job, owning my own horse, making all my own decisions on management, and having the ability to sell the horse if it's not working out.

In the context of the above posters re: someone providing the horse - need to look at the risk/reward analysis. In my case I am taking all the risk, and stand the chance to lose big time or to reap big time.

I'll hope to walk in the footsteps of Reiner Klimke and Hinrich Romeike. But if I don't, I will enjoy my hobby and my passion, and hopefully I won't have the pressure of having to win in order to feed myself.

Big ditto. If I have a well paying 9-5 job, I will be able to AFFORD top quality care for my horse as well as more lessons/clinics with a great trainer. And then I can donate $$, volunteer my time, etc...not enough people are willing to give back to the sport...they want the sport to give give give to them!

[eventingfan]

The USEA Youth Board just awarded grants to 2 Jr/Yr's to spend 2 weeks with Gina Miles and Boyd Martin. There were 106 applicants. The grants were sponsored by SmartPak and Equilite. That should be a wonderful opportunity for the riders selected.

[DLee]

I think the OC's are very generous with sharing their knowledge. Hey Mickey, if you wrote to them directly, you just never know.

[retreadeventer]

The USEA Youth Board just awarded grants to 2 Jr/Yr's to spend 2 weeks with Gina Miles and Boyd Martin. There were 106 applicants. The grants were sponsored by SmartPak and Equilite. That should be a wonderful opportunity for the riders selected.

JUST TWO grants for 106 applicants. That's crazy dismal. Why on earth don't we have 20 grants available....oh wait...because we sent 10 half-ready horses to Burghley....

[retreadeventer]

There is certainly a problem with getting the right riders horses and training. If I had a say I believe we need to concentrate in two areas:

1. improving the function of the USET

The uset in the future needs to be concerned with a few main objectives; talent identification, getting those identified good guidance/training so that they may become elite riders, providing european experience to the current elite A and B squad, and maintaining good team management(this should include the ability of the manager to fundraise). I believe these objectives can be met, but it will require substantial change. I dont think the organization is quite ready for that.

2. Producing US bred horses for our top riders and future elite to ride

We must begin to purpose breed event horses in the US. We already have a fantastic foundation in that we have the best TB broodmare stock in the World.....


I like Number 1 and would LOFF to think and dream about a USET that did just exactly what you've laid out...

Talent Identification
---- Developing Rider Committee, Team Selection Committee
---- List of nationwide events and horse trials where Talent Identification will take place, preferably at least one per USEA Area per year, some areas more than one, and all World Cup things and all FEI recognized things. Both developing riders and team riders would be considered at these events.

Team Training
----- List of all International Team goal events such as WEGs, Olympics, Pan Ams and international events that are non-team (such as Burghley)
----- List of all national team events such as World Cups and CCI's (Rolex, Fair Hill, etc.) where Team riders will be competing - whatever works here.
-----Winter Training Sessions and periodic training sessions (some of which come in summer or other times of year depending upon the goal events.) Use clinics ALREADY scheduled or planned, such as the Bruce Davidson clinic upcoming 10/30-11/1 at Chesterland, for developing riders on the list, or the O'Connor Event Camp, Phillip Dutton Event Camp, etc. provide "scholarships" for these (partial or full).
-----Developing Rider Tours - European/non national experiences

Team Management
------Fundraising, funds management, accounts, sponsorship, etc.
------Logistics - including travel, etc.
------Publicity -- news, promotion, public team event management, team rider publicity, Website, etc.
------employees and volunteers

Now darn it how simple is that. I am all for using what is already in place, no special new things, work with current events and organizers, get a nationwide core group of volunteers such as our current selection committee - expand it to "team" and "developing" to help these folks out, no more undefinable lists, streamline, organize, develop a system and put it to use.

Yah think? You and me Michael, yeah. OH and Denny too. Ha ha ha.

[fernie fox]

The US also lacks Euro/UK-style pony eventing for the real kiddies. The FEI Pony Championships in Europe draws teams from all over.

Video of Necarne Pony CCNP** (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdhA9L-S0vM).


The main difference is that in UK we start our kids on ponies,the whole system is based on kids under 14 riding ponies.

All shows have under 14.2 classes,even in showjumping,the junior classes are huge[ponies under 14.2.]

The tinies ride in under 11.2, and move up to 12.2 13.2,14.2.

Also most pony clubs are affiliated with their local hunt,once again hunting is a major event,when you hunt on a pony you have a blast.

Many times kids who cant afford a pony are loaned one by another member.

Sharing or loaning good ponies,horses is quite common.

I know when I had the odd pony floating around ,I would always grab a pony club kid to ride it.

Funnily enough I have tried loaning ponies to various kids since I have been here,and the attitude is very different,the kids are not encouraged to work with their rides,they expect to arrive at a show and have every thing done for them,they have too much to do,what with,band ,cheer leading homework etc.

[annikak]

USPC used to be it...and it's not anymore.

I am not involved anymore for a few reasons- mostly personal...school/job/life:lol: and USPC takes hours each week to do it right.

Yes, numbers are declining. And as SevenDogs pointed out, it's because there are too many choices out there. I Still think that USPC is a great foundation for riders and H/M. But with the spreading of the ratings, it's just too thin.

I was SERIOUSLY disturbed when the "traditional" rating was being called the "Eventing" rating, and they were working on removing a great deal of the XC portions- because it was too hard to hold ratings. My argument? How can someone be an Traditional/Eventing A if they have not gone out and done an XC course? No water? No banks? No coffins?? Com'on. That is NOT an eventing rating.

I rated when I was a wee thing (and there probably was no electricity, then, either, if you care to guess when that was...:lol:) and there were things like slides and water crossings and real questions that you'd see out there. I was not able to ride until I was an adult, so had close to 20+ years off. When I came back, to give back to USPC, the watering down had started. It's gotten worse.

Yes, numbers are dwindling- as they are in many youth organizations. Money is oh-so-tight right now. USPC is expensive to run. But, by spreading things out so thin, I think our eventing pipeline has dried up. I still think it can produce great HM'ers, and it should, but as far as the riding? Not so much any more. Used to be every olympic rider we had was a USPC'er, and usually higher then a B, but now?? Not sure that is the case.

As far as current riders? I can think of 4 right off the bat- Sara, Marty Whitehouse, Ralph H, and Jenna (sp????) Schindelmeier. All great riders, and great horsepeople too. Marty was a PC'er, but I don't think the others are. Maybe Sara?


Fernie- that's how it used to be here, (I never owned a horse) and I think its a royal shame that it's not that way now. Hunting, sharing ponies, and just riding out- missing now. I rode the huntsmans horse for my rating. How lucky was I???

[seeuatx]

I guess we need a Triple A "team" to draw up and bring them into the show.

What if there was some sort of "Rookie Watch List" at prelim and intermediate? And then based on what they do, there can be a weekly Rookie award that might involve a lesson, or course walk, or coaching... something with a BNR. The Rookie of the Week thing doesn't necessarily have to be competition results, but maybe just some impressive riding/ horsemanship that was caught. This may help get these kids, young adults, and converts noticed...and maybe get some people talking about them. If they become the topic of conversation, their sponsorship might go up... a lot of sponsors like to be able to say they have so and so riding their horse, this might help.

So, yeah, that's what I thought of when I watched the game last night while at work... I am a bad, bad Pittsburgher :no:

[hey101]

I
Until I was a WS for a few months, I did want to compete at the international level. I don't anymore. I still want to work with horses, but I have seen what the "BNT" lifestyle does to people. Of the ULRs I have met, those without money troubles appear no happier than those with. Same for LLRs, for that matter. To whoever said they want to ride at the upper levels on their own terms - that, I believe, is what we are missing in this country, and why there are not so many up and comers. The ULRs are riding on others' terms, whether it be the Chief, sponsors, job, parents, etc. This is a tough pill to swallow. It doesn't make for star horseman, it makes for desperation and giving up strengths. Seems that would keep a lot of those youngsters who have the drive and heart out of the running.

Bingo bingo bingo. I was corresponding privately with another poster on this thread and your statement here exactly sums up what I was trying to say.

I also wonder if the "I do myself" independence of ~most~ eventers precludes many more people, who might otherwise be considered, from "falling in line" with the team mentality and acquiescence to CMP's wishes in terms of how and when to compete, how to manage their horses, etc. Personally... If I am the one footing the bill for the horse then I am the one making the decisions about it's management, competition schedule, etc. Guess CMP won't be knocking on my door anytime soon! (aside from not being good enough, that is :D)

[JER]

There is certainly a problem with getting the right riders horses and training. If I had a say I believe we need to concentrate in two areas:

1. improving the function of the USET

The uset in the future needs to be concerned with a few main objectives; talent identification, getting those identified good guidance/training so that they may become elite riders, providing european experience to the current elite A and B squad, and maintaining good team management(this should include the ability of the manager to fundraise). I believe these objectives can be met, but it will require substantial change. I dont think the organization is quite ready for that.

(I'll address the 2nd point -- about breeding -- in another post.)

What Michael is describing is what British Eventing has been doing for a while now via the Equestrian World Class Programme (http://www.britisheventing.com/page.asp?section=213&sectionTitle=UK+Sport+Funding+%26+The+World+Class+ Programme).

The programme's mission is to:
* Identify talent
* Maximise potential
* Deliver Success

The Plan comprises three programmes:
* World Class Performance
* World Class Development
* The Equine Pathway

If you go to the link, you'll see individual pages for each of the three programmes. The World Class Equine Pathway is described here (http://www.britisheventing.com/page.asp?section=674&sectionTitle=World+Class+Equine+Pathway).

These programs are funded by UK Sport via the National Lottery. Lottery funding has transformed the UK from a quaint joke into a global sport power -- GBR finished 4th in total medals won at the Beijing Olympics, ahead of France, Germany and Australia.

But here's the thing: funding is pegged to PERFORMANCE. If you don't meet criteria, you lose funding. You lose funding and the future of your sport is at stake.

Which means the sport has an incentive to produce results. Coaches, managers and selectors know they will be held accountable. Athletes know they can't rest on their laurels or make excuses.

You know what? This system is working. Really well.

[purplnurpl]

Question for the young riders and hopefuls out there:

Aside from having to support yourselves and take lessons, is it a matter of getting a good horse?

Would it help if people donated a "good horse" to you? What would you consider "a good horse" to be?


A good horse = a sound horse. average althetics but above average brain and heart.

I have just aquired a great horse. The owner signed him over to me for a year and is helping with show bills. He came broke on the flat with a spectacular mind. young, no show expeience.
Now I have one year to prove myself on him...

when it comes to equines we can only take it day by day.

[Blugal]

To quickly answer the question about what is needed:

Agree with purplnurpl, you need a sound horse.

Money for training, lessons, shows, and of course - you need to be able to eat, have facilities of some sort, transport to horse shows etc., whether this comes in the form of a full-time job, or a WS with parent support or side-job, or doing horses full time and getting the money from coaching/training/boarding/sales. That is the trouble with "getting a horse to ride" - one horse only isn't going to pay the bills. Most aspiring North American 4-star riders are spending 95% of their time doing something other than perfecting their 4-star skills. (Even riding 6-8 greenies a day isn't doing a lot for your 4-star skills.)

It seems that many/most people who've made it to the top started with one horse and a great partnership. It didn't need to be a world-beater horse. Those came later.

In my case I feel that my years of Pony Club, working student etc. have enabled me to pick out a decent horse for a price I can afford and bring it up to a certain level. I don't necessarily need a world-beater horse - in fact, I might not be ready for it. But I need one good, sound horse that I can take to 3-star level, and hope that we are special enough as a partnership to do a 4-star. If not, that experience at 3-star will enable me to bring the next one up that far and again hope we will go 4-star.

In the meantime, it's the ongoing costs of horsekeeping and competing that I struggle with - not usually the cost of the horse itself. On that basis, if I have to cover all the expenses, there is basically a marginal benefit, besides the potential benefit of having The World-Beater, to "getting the ride" on a nicely-bred, unproven horse. The counter-side of "the owner has the risk of the horse getting hurt" is the risk to me that all the time and training and expenses I put in, up to the level I am already capable of doing, will be down the tubes if the horse gets taken away for any reason.

[vineyridge]

If a horse that you are developing for less than full compensation by the owner is sold, isn't it common for the rider to get a percentage of the sales price? After all, s/he is providing part of the value added to the horse at his/her own expense.

[Blugal]

Yes.

But how about the situation where the rider put in a year's work, the horse moves up two levels and completes a couple FEI events. In a vet check for a potential sale the horse has a minor issue that puts it out for 3 months, owner re-habs it and it gets sold (without rider's involvement) 6 months later.

I had that happen in a situation where I wasn't covering expenses and I had a great relationship with the owner, so this wasn't an issue at all. But if (as some posters here are implying should be done) I had covered all expenses and that happened, the owner surely is benefitting more than the rider.

[poltroon]

But here's the thing: funding is pegged to PERFORMANCE. If you don't meet criteria, you lose funding. You lose funding and the future of your sport is at stake.

Which means the sport has an incentive to produce results. Coaches, managers and selectors know they will be held accountable. Athletes know they can't rest on their laurels or make excuses.

You know what? This system is working. Really well.

I don't think a lack of incentive is really an issue here. There are plenty of incentives.

[Blugal]

I should've edited my thoughts.

Horses are expensive. They're a gamble.

Write up a contract that both parties think is fair enough to agree to. Otherwise, ride your own horse, whether you're a breeder or a rider.

[imapepper]

I guarantee that if you took those same talented young riders (and I don't think anybody is questioning those kids' talent) and put them in programs that rewarded guts, dedication, and progressively greater experience by putting progressively nicer horses under their hineys, nobody would be whining about them being "young".

In other words, it's very nice when a young American kid gets lucky enough to have rich parents and gets lucky enough to buy a schoolmaster horse that takes them up the ranks. But it would be way nicer to take that young American kid and put them in a meritocratic system that truly let the cream rise to the top.


Amen to that! I wish that there was some sort of program out there that could develop young riders. I have seen plenty that have ability and never get the chance because the price of entry is too high and I have seen plenty that have the $$$$ but are lacking the real knowledge (have ability just have not acquired the tools yet) to bring along a horse or make good decisions at the upper levels because they skipped steps.

[Hey Mickey]

I think the OC's are very generous with sharing their knowledge. Hey Mickey, if you wrote to them directly, you just never know.

Maybe I will do that.
My barn boss went down to audit the camp last winter. Which is always a good alternative if you can't ride in a clinic. (She said it was amazing!)
But I feel like if I didn't actually ride in the camp (or at least the winter one) I would lose most of the knowledge I just gained on the ride home, and through the Ohio winter.

[NeverTime]

Chelsie, that is why you take notes. It's easy to tell the serious riders from the not-so-serious ones at a clinic. The serious ones are taking notes, volunteering to set jumps for the clinician just so they can be nearby in the arena and hear every word coming out of that person's mouth.
The not-so-serious ones chat with their friends on the bleachers, show up just for their own ride and leave without watching anyone else, and will probably remember one thing from the weekend's experience: "BNT said my horse is nice!"

[Cinnabon2004]

What constitutes to YOU a good horse? A fully trained one ready for the top levels? One with talent and athletic ability that you could not otherwise afford? Raw talent?

I am curious about the "getting a good horse" part.


There are several things I look for in a horse in order to constitute how "good" it is. I am now 20 and have been around horses all my life. I have shown competitively and I have watched from the sidelines, all the while learning a lot. I have seen beautiful dutch warmbloods clean up at shows and I have watched a pony show at an advanced level and kick some serious tail.


When it comes to horses there are a few things I look for: number 1 is temperament. All through this thread a big theme is determination and fire from the riders, but we must also look for this in the horses. A horse may be flashy with good conform. etc. but the horse has to love jumping and has to be as risky as the rider. Not to mention that nice tempered horses make a huge difference when forming a bond between horse and rider. Intelligence is also a bit of a necessity in a horse if you are planning on doing the upper levels.

Secondly, I like starting with green horses. I can always form a better bond when the horse and I are learning together; we can relate to each other and it builds trust. Packers are great when you're inexperienced because it gives you, as the rider, more confidence which allows you to work easier with greenies as you get older/ more experienced. But since we are discussing young riders or young adults, hopefully by this point they will already have that basis for confidence.


Raw talent, however, does make a difference in my opinion. Part of me thinks that too much is invested in bloodlines and branding now a days. I like to think that a horse doesn't have to be an Oldenburg in order to have natural talent, or perfect conformation for that matter. Perhaps that's the optimist in me, given that I am 20, in college, and have basically no money :lol: But I do believe a certain amount of raw talent is necessary, especially if the rider is aspiring to higher levels of eventing.

So I guess the majorly condensed version of all that is: Horses don't have to be packers to be good. Granted packers are worth their weight in gold, but that's not the case here. Young horses, with good temperaments, intelligence, drive, and raw talent, that are willing to be taught, are what stand out most to me. That may seem like a lot to ask for but eventing is a fairly serious sport, especially once you reach the pre-lim level. It's not like "oops i got thrown into the jump and knocked the poles down (granted that is not anymore fun)" but instead your hitting a solid wooden cross country jump that is not going to budge. There is a certain level of risk for you and the horse which is why you need everything from the trust to intelligence. And that's pretty much my food for thought :)

[NeverTime]

I guess we need a Triple A "team" to draw up and bring them into the show.

What if there was some sort of "Rookie Watch List" at prelim and intermediate? And then based on what they do, there can be a weekly Rookie award that might involve a lesson, or course walk, or coaching... something with a BNR. The Rookie of the Week thing doesn't necessarily have to be competition results, but maybe just some impressive riding/ horsemanship that was caught. This may help get these kids, young adults, and converts noticed...and maybe get some people talking about them. If they become the topic of conversation, their sponsorship might go up... a lot of sponsors like to be able to say they have so and so riding their horse, this might help.

So, yeah, that's what I thought of when I watched the game last night while at work... I am a bad, bad Pittsburgher :no:

Sounds like the Developing Rider list to me. You might not like the way or who gets picked, but its functions seem to be exactly what you describe.

[vineyridge]

Would anyone at all be willing to join in this sort of arrangement?

1. Rider finds green horse. Could be an OTTB or more than one. Could be a yearling or weanling. Would need to pass some sort of talent test, but would also be basically unstarted.

2. Sponsor would buy horse for rider and, if a baby, would raise horse to starting age.

3. Rider would start and train horse as far as it would go. Rider and sponsor together would decide when to sell horse. If rider has been doing the training on his/her own dime, rider would get 75% of the sales price.

4. Sponsor would not contribute to daily maintenance but would pay for a certain number of competition entries per year.

5. If horse is injured, it could rehab at sponsor's, but would have to go back to rider. If horse needs retirement, that would be on sponsor's dime.

6. Any and all sales would need to meet the highest standards of integrity and honesty.

[NeverTime]

Would anyone at all be willing to join in this sort of arrangement?

1. Rider finds green horse. Could be an OTTB or more than one. Could be a yearling or weanling. Would need to pass some sort of talent test, but would also be basically unstarted.

2. Sponsor would buy horse for rider and, if a baby, would raise horse to starting age.

3. Rider would start and train horse as far as it would go. Rider and sponsor together would decide when to sell horse. If rider has been doing the training on his/her own dime, rider would get 75% of the sales price.

4. Sponsor would not contribute to daily maintenance but would pay for a certain number of competition entries per year.

5. If horse is injured, it could rehab at sponsor's, but would have to go back to rider. If horse needs retirement, that would be on sponsor's dime.

6. Any and all sales would need to meet the highest standards of integrity and honesty.

First: HELL NO. The arrangement you propose above puts all of the financial risk on the sponsor's shoulders with little or no benefit. Sponsor buys horse, sponsor pays for competitions and for all of horses living expenses during its non-competitive life, horse becomes sponsor's burden while sick or injured, and sponsor "generously" gets 25% if it sells. The unproven kid that thinks a sponsor should go along with that idea has a serious case of entitlement.
(Then again, I've never understood what, exactly, non-riding owners get out of this sport, even when their horses are with proven, Olympic-caliber riders who are likely to win regularly.)

Second: This thread started by talking about a "kid movement" of 20-somethings in eventing. If you are starting with yearlings and weanlings, you probably aren't helping young people get to the top of the sport in their 20s because those horses will have a lot of years of growing and training in front of them, even in the best professional hands, much less the hands of a teenager.

[sidepasser]

What if someone donates a horse that is already started? Should they bear the expenses of a horse competing or should the person receiving the horse? I am not talking about a horse that is "broken" or the like, but one that is between 3-5 and has been started under saddle or perhaps if someone purchases a nice, clean legged OTTB or such?

Just curious as to what is expected to be paid by whom in that case? The donator has already donated the purchase price of the horse and possibly any let down training, etc.

Edited to add: in regards to a non rider with an eventing horse, or sponsoring such a horse- some of us are too broken to ride an eventing horse but enjoy the sport and would like to help someone who can do what we can no longer do. I don't see a problem with that, but others might. I think it is also why volunteers volunteer at horse trials (why should we, we aren't being paid!..lol), but the concept is the same. I've never evented, but have come across nice horses that are event worthy, but passed on them because I can't ride them and don't know any eventers personally that I could donate the horse to. Perhaps others are in the same boat? Perhaps we employ trainers and work with horses and pay for such training but know we can never ride such a horse. Is there a problem donating such a horse to an up and coming young rider?

[Couture TB]

Would anyone at all be willing to join in this sort of arrangement?

1. Rider finds green horse. Could be an OTTB or more than one. Could be a yearling or weanling. Would need to pass some sort of talent test, but would also be basically unstarted.

2. Sponsor would buy horse for rider and, if a baby, would raise horse to starting age.

3. Rider would start and train horse as far as it would go. Rider and sponsor together would decide when to sell horse. If rider has been doing the training on his/her own dime, rider would get 75% of the sales price.

4. Sponsor would not contribute to daily maintenance but would pay for a certain number of competition entries per year.

5. If horse is injured, it could rehab at sponsor's, but would have to go back to rider. If horse needs retirement, that would be on sponsor's dime.

6. Any and all sales would need to meet the highest standards of integrity and honesty.

No way. What that is pretty much saying is that the rider owns 75% of the horse WITHOUT having to pay for the purchase of the horse, all competitions, any of the risks of injuring the horse (minus being out a horse to ride) and the Sponsor for purchasing the horse, taking all the risk if the horse is injured, and for paying for certain competitions gets a whopping 25% of the horses sale price. WOW. I can just see people getting in line for that. That to me reaks of entitlement.

I have done partnerships with owners in the past. We usually purchase a horse together. They pay for board I provide training. We split show costs. When the horse is sold we split the sale price 50/50, unless one person is into the horse for more cash then the other then the difference is made up. These are horses that are purchased for sale though. Not horses that you hope to keep and compete to a higher level.

I am still of the opinion that if someone is willing to let you have the use of a talented horse to progress your riding career then be happy for it. For all everyone is saying that the rider is out all the board and competion money they leave out that the horse is progressing the riders career. Young riders are saying that they could make their mark if only someone gave them a talented young horse instead of sending it out to an already BNR, but when they are offered the horse they also want the owner to foot the bills. They want to have their cake and eat it to.

A GREAT example of a young rider who wanted it so bad and was willing to do anything it took was Michele Gibbson. The owners let her use their talented, though problimatic horse, and she footed all the bills. Those owners wouldn't even pay to get her and the horse back to the states for the 96 Olympics. But guess what? She figured out a way to do it! Now what the owners did to her after the games was horrible, but that was a chance that was taken and she got to the Olympics. That is more then most riders could ever hope for.

[advmom]

It is always a gamble when one considers having outside financial interest in your horse.
Are there folks out there who are willing to be part owners of very talented horses with young riders?
Because there are riders out there who have all that it takes and are simply lacking funds to keep going past the *** who would entertain an limited number of partial owners in their horse

[poltroon]

3. Rider would start and train horse as far as it would go. Rider and sponsor together would decide when to sell horse. If rider has been doing the training on his/her own dime, rider would get 75% of the sales price.

Regardless of the merits of the rest of the arrangements, the problem seems to be that no one has the dimes for step 3: feeding the horse, the lessons, the competition fees, etc. And most especially, no one has the dimes to do it for two horses.

[ozjb]

This is a very interesting thread with lots of diverse ideas. I'm enjoying it.

We live in Australia, my 14 year old daughter is just starting eventing on her 14hh New Forest Pony, doing Intro level (not sure what the equates to in the US, but it's around 80 - 85 cm). She's done 2 Open events so far and several YR camps.

I have been VERY impressed with New South Wales Eventing. There are 2 camps a year, just for Young Riders. It matters not whether the child is riding a $300 ratbag or a 3* horse that momma bought to safely cart her child around the Intro courses. All levels seem to be catered for, from the little kids on little ponies doing Newcomer to the more serious competive YRs. Some of the kids are probably the future of the sport, some are just getting started, some are just having a bit of fun with their friends but there is no distinction in the quality of instruction. The instructors are competing eventers (some Olympians) who come and spend 3 or 4 days with these kids.

Somehow the organisers have created an atmosphere where the top riders ARE giving back to their sport and the kids are benefiting. The volunteers are amazing. Some have kids who are currently riding, some have grown up children who aren't riding, some have grandkids who are riding! Clearly, they all love their sport and want to stay involved.

We are also quite lucky in that Pony Club does offer kids an opportunity to Event within Pony Club for a fraction of the cost of an Open event. A number of our Olympic riders came through Pony Club and, again, they do give back.

I don't have anything to add to the discussion, but just thought I would share my experience as a mom to a keen youngster just getting starting in the sport.

[nomeolvides]

Would anyone at all be willing to join in this sort of arrangement?

1. Rider finds green horse. Could be an OTTB or more than one. Could be a yearling or weanling. Would need to pass some sort of talent test, but would also be basically unstarted.

2. Sponsor would buy horse for rider and, if a baby, would raise horse to starting age.

3. Rider would start and train horse as far as it would go. Rider and sponsor together would decide when to sell horse. If rider has been doing the training on his/her own dime, rider would get 75% of the sales price.

4. Sponsor would not contribute to daily maintenance but would pay for a certain number of competition entries per year.

5. If horse is injured, it could rehab at sponsor's, but would have to go back to rider. If horse needs retirement, that would be on sponsor's dime.

6. Any and all sales would need to meet the highest standards of integrity and honesty.
There doesn't seem to be much in that arrangement for the sponsor to get out of it. People need to remember that to actually get a decent sponsorship arrangement they need to offer a service to the sponsor, not just take from them.

[vineyridge]

Isn't sponsorship mostly about ego gratification for the sponsor? Allowing someone who might not be able to perform to have a connection to a sport that would give them reason to spend money going to events and raising babies?

I would think in that situation, the money would be very secondary. At least it would be in my case. :D

Broken horses are going to be a problem no matter who "owns" them. Looking out for their post competition life seems to me to be rather paramount.

[Ajierene]

Isn't sponsorship mostly about ego gratification for the sponsor? Allowing someone who might not be able to perform to have a connection to a sport that would give them reason to spend money going to events and raising babies?

I would consider a 50/50 split. That has nothing to do with my ego as a sponsor and everything to do with return on investment.

Actually, I have considered approaching my barn owner about helping her sell some ponies. I do not have the time to ride them right now, so I have tabled that discussion, but I would prefer to take the money invests, once that is recouped by each party, split the profit 50/50.

It would have to be clearly written in the contract, though. This would include a monetary fee per month to be determined for people who keep their horses at home - and NOT a fee of $500 a month just to feed a horse.

It would also mean receipts and careful records would need to be kept by both parties.

Now, the return on investment is different if I am merely giving a horse to a rider, without planning to sell it, but planning to get the horse moved up the levels.

[vineyridge]

It would seem to me that the whole point of any such arrangement is to find horses, take them as far as their talent allows; and if they reach their limits, sell them on to riders who are happy with getting a well trained horse with limits. So, while sales might have to be the end point for a particular horse, the road up is the process, with Badminton the ultimate goal for the rider and sponsor.

[Eventingjunkie]

It would seem to me that the whole point of any such arrangement is to find horses, take them as far as their talent allows; and if they reach their limits, sell them on to riders who are happy with getting a well trained horse with limits. So, while sales might have to be the end point for a particular horse, the road up is the process, with Badminton the ultimate goal for the rider and sponsor.

Totally agree!

[carolinagirl191]

This is a really good thread and it raised a question for me so I asked it in a new spin-off concerning the Americal Horse Trials Foundation.
Thanks everybody.

[Weatherford]

Jack Le Goff ran "talent derbies".

Tad Coffin, Bruce Davidson, people like that got spotted, then helped.

But----another era----

Now the coach lives 3000 miles away, you have to find your own help.

Uh, maybe you need a different coach? Homemade, perhaps? ;)

[LexInVA]

That's what Expert Village is for. *snorts*

[Weatherford]

I have a friend here who has working students that come, some for the summer, some for longer. She chooses and starts young horses for Eventing and Showing. The kids ride lots of horses, get lots of coaching, get to show and event (if they are good enough), get room and board and even a weekly stipend. They have to work their butts off, as well, but all in a good family atmosphere. (By the way, this friend has been Supreme Hunter Champion at Dublin more than once, and has found and started a number of famous international horses - like, Ringwood Cockatoo, among others.)

Anyway, I have sent her a few working students. Only one has lasted more than a week - the others (who I didn't know personally, only through the BB's) couldn't ride - had no clue how to gallop or ride forward, and certainly had no real clue how to ride outside a ring.

And that, essentially, is the problem with sending US kids to Europe as working students - they don't really know how to get down and dirty and RIDE. GALLOP. Jump ditches and banks. Get on anything with four legs and stay on by the seat of their pants!!

My friend would be more than happy to take on more US working students, but she is pretty skeptical of them! She has had much more success with the Swedish kids.

My own two working students have both been wonderful - but, one was a relative, the other a kid I had known very well in the US. I probably wouldn't take anyone else (they'd have to put up with me as well as vice versa! :lol: )

[LAZ]

As far as current riders? I can think of 4 right off the bat- Sara, Marty Whitehouse, Ralph H, and Jenna (sp????) Schindelmeier. All great riders, and great horsepeople too. Marty was a PC'er, but I don't think the others are. Maybe Sara?


Fernie- that's how it used to be here, (I never owned a horse) and I think its a royal shame that it's not that way now. Hunting, sharing ponies, and just riding out- missing now. I rode the huntsmans horse for my rating. How lucky was I???


Jenna (Schildmier) is a C-3. She got that rating and then quit in favor of eventing as she couldn't do both.

I have a couple of kids that have gone through the C-3 level & quit, it just gets too time consuming for the way their lives are now. One of my kids has her H-A, but the time & money commitment to get her A has kept her from doing it.

I don't know how kids can balance competing, pony club, school, homework now. Half the kids I know (the ones with good grades and drive) have 3-4 hours of homework every single night.

[Speedy]

I don't know how kids can balance competing, pony club, school, homework now. Half the kids I know (the ones with good grades and drive) have 3-4 hours of homework every single night.

I'd add commuting to the list.

I think a big problem is the fact that many of the kids who ride these days actually live in the suburbs and they board their horses even farther out. Their parents are already stretched to the limits, getting them to and from school, and then to and from the barn to ride at all - the commitment involved in pony club is almost impossible for many of them.

My trainer hosts pony club lessons / clinics at her farm, and when I see the kids trailering in with their parents for these lessons, I wonder how the parents manage it. To do PC, some of the kids have been on the bus to / from school during the day (@ 1 1/2 hours total), been in the car with Mom or Dad to get to the barn to pick up gear / horse (@ 40 minutes), packed up gear and horse and trailered to farm for PC lesson (@1 hour), had lesson, packed up gear and horse and trailered back to barn (@ 1 hour), trekked back home with Mom or Dad (@ 40 minutes)...that's for a kid living / riding in the suburbs of DC, within what is considered a VERY reasonable distance from the barn (40 minutes is nothing here). That's almost 5 hours of commuting in 1 day, just to get to and from school and 1 PC lesson. These kids get home pretty late and then have to study, eat dinner, etc. And that's to say nothing of the impact that this commitment has on the parent's other work / life responsibilities. I don't think it's all that surprising if fewer kids are doing PC these days.

If the same kid boards at a farm with a good trainer and just does a lesson with the trainer that day, the kid saves around 2 hours getting to and from the PC lesson. Riding is, in and of itself, a big commitment - adding PC to the mix may be just too much for the parents.

[teamwallace]

So what about us? We are out there. What about Jon Holling.He always does super well, but still hasn't got a pink coat.. When will he get his break?There is alot of talent in the US, but I feel some are often "lost".

I made the developing riders list in 2007. Bought my one horse as a yearling for $700 bucks and developed myself,--he ended up winning the 2006 Maui Jim CIC*** and several top placings at the advanced level finished 19th at the Pan-Am selection trials. Then got an injury two weeks before Blenhiem.

My other advanced horse was a mare I bought for 1 dollar.Tough horse to ride, but very talented, won CIC** and competed successfully at the 3star. But she too recieved a injury so she was out.

So now I have spent two years trying to bring up another string of horses. Two talented off the trackers and a dressage flunkie--that no one could ride. There are good horses are out there but you have to work for it--take the ones that no one can ride--it makes you a better rider.To ride the "unorthodox" ones .

It has been tough, of course money is always the issue. But it is possible, the best thing is to just keep trying, trying to get dedicated clients and supporters, trying to keep competing and staying out there is important. As CMP told me the best way to get noticed is by results, so alas that is what I will do. Although the politics are hard to break through, I can only do my best.

Luckily for me I have grown up in Eventing and had my father to guide me. But I do feel that the Developing Riders could have been a little more organized and broadend. I still felt a little lost.I found going to the USEA Convention was very helpful,I learned alot, and had access to several Upper level riders and their imput.

I wish that Phillips and David O'Connor would have listend to my father(Rick Wallace) in 07 about the Developing Riders.

[Hey Mickey]

Chelsie, that is why you take notes. It's easy to tell the serious riders from the not-so-serious ones at a clinic. The serious ones are taking notes, volunteering to set jumps for the clinician just so they can be nearby in the arena and hear every word coming out of that person's mouth.
The not-so-serious ones chat with their friends on the bleachers, show up just for their own ride and leave without watching anyone else, and will probably remember one thing from the weekend's experience: "BNT said my horse is nice!"

I am always the one taking notes, video taping, and taking pictures. (of everyone)
I'm a crazy note taker.
But I also think you lose info regardless if you aren't able to immediately go home and ride.

[PhoenixFarm]

As a breeder, I'd have a hard time with that 75-25 split. For three reasons.

One, I've already got a lot into my kids before they're ready to go to an ambitious YR. More than 25%. Two, as mentioned, I'm taking all the risk of injury and retirement (and I question how having that automatic out is teaching our YR's the lessons we need about horsemanship and horses not being disposable). Three, I'd want a spilt more similar, at minimum, to 51% (me) to 49% (rider). That way the final decision on anything is still mine, per the ownership split. If I think the horse needs a break, I can mandate a break. If I think a horse needs to retire, I can mandate that too. I don't trust TPTB to put my horse's welfare first (it's not their job, really, is it?) and a young, impressionable rider with Olympic Rings in their eyes may not have the maturity or (dare I say it) appropriately jaded character to realize that others may not have the best interests of them or their horse at heart. :winkgrin:

I'm torn on the age thing. I think like a lot of people when I'm day dreaming about winning the lottery (LOL) I think of the people I know I'd buy a good horse for. Most of them are in their mid-thirties, because I trust them to do what's best for the horse, to have an established program, and to need just that little extra edge to get their coat. Interestingly, most of them have largely stopped caring that much about the coat. Maybe that's a common denominator. There are a few YR/early 20s I'd consider, but I'd require the horse be kept with me, under my management. Not because they're bad kids, or bad caretakers or anything, but because they are young, and don't yet have the life experience to always make the right choice. I'd prefer to be in a mentor role in that capacity, rather than simply an absentee owner.

As far as viney's specific suggestions, unless I were independently wealthy, I can't see paying for someone else to ride and compete my horse, when I, my husband, and my crew are perfectly capable of doing it ourselves. I could see myself making a horse available for the right person in the right circumstance, and should I ever hit the lottery, I can see myself buying or selecting horses for certain riders and supporting them.

But, as an example of this issue of "how dedicated are these YR's, really", I offered a horse, FEI level but not a "team horse" for a sort of onsite lease. Horse would live here on my dime, I'd pay insurance and routine vet, rider would pay all show and lesson fees, plus shoeing. Rider also responsible for extraordinary vet related to competing (sorry, not in the budget to be doing bi-weekly legend and adequan shots, or preventative shockwave, or any of the other "stuff" so called "serious sporthorse vets" are always recommending. But if a rider wanted to pay for it, and I could understand the logic behind it, I'd be willing). I also get to pick and choose his runs. Not going to run every two weeks, or in crappy footing, or do three CCI's in a year, etc.

Mr. PF is riding the horse now. No takers. ;) So if I'm going to pay for him, then Mr. PF can ride him.

[denny]

The "kids", be they 18 or 33, must take enormous responsibility to become "better".

Better riders, better horse choosers and developers, better athletes, braver, tougher, more agile cross country riders, better dressage technicians, better show jumpers with a better eye, better in everything.

Because, know what? Cream rises to the top.

This requires enormous focus and hunger and true grit, without which they better have super rich parents or sponsors, to buy the great horses which can cover up their inadaquacies.

Far better to change inadaquacies to skills, and that comes down to struggle, which most people just can`t handle.

[tuppysmom]

with the kid, the horses, and looking at spending 8 weeks living in a horse trailer. I have read and re read most of this thread.

What do you suppose young competitors in other sports do to stay on the road? I doubt that Tiger Woods' parents would have just stopped helping him at age 18 would they? I think they were there for the whole trip, weren't they? So, where are the families of all these aspiring riders? Do they just stop helping their kid when the kid reaches the age of 18? If so, why? Is it because people do not look at horses as a true sport?

Most all of our students, even the talented ones, begin to get pressure from the 'rents to quit riding and get on with real life at about age 18 when higher ed is looking them in the eye. Parents don't see this as sport, they see it as hobby/fun time/whatever.

We heard quite a little about why isn't DD going on with school, and what is she doing for a career/make a living, etc. We just smiled and continued on as usual. It took a while, but everyone in the extended family is now on board.

DD could not do this without the help of many people. It isn't just one or two people, it's more like 50 people, maybe more. It isn't big checks, it's lots and lots of small helps that will get you there.

It's also win a little prize money here, sell your young horse there, teach lessons, trade board/lessons for farm help while we are away, put on a little horse show, someone helps with fuel costs, someone else lets us overnight at reduced rate. Dad leaves his horse training/lesson business and drives the truck, Mom/me grooms. Be frugle in your everyday life so you have more left to spend on the horse.

You, your family, your friends do anything and everything and the next thing you know, you're on your way.

A winning lottery ticket would make this so much easier, though!