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View Full Version : Spin off: How much does turnout count?



hellerkm
Sep. 8, 2009, 02:25 PM
I posted a thread about kids and hunter hair. As the thread went along I started to wonder, how much does turnout count overall?
If a SS kid laid down an AWESOME trip but was poorly turned out how much would it matter? Lets say the two or three kids behind her had "nice trips" but they were not quite as good as the first kid. Two kids behind had beautiful turn out. How would you pin them?

JinxyFish313
Sep. 8, 2009, 02:34 PM
In my experience the SS kids who put in good rounds, or even just ones that aren't scary to watch, come out of bigger barns and are always well turned out anyway.

I guess to answer your question I'd need to know in what way was this kid poorly turned out - like, dirty pony and sloppy hair poor, or purple jods, white plastic helmet, manure stained pony with a navajo pad poor?

Flag Day
Sep. 8, 2009, 02:57 PM
It is interesting overall because I have been to A shows and in some of the unrated divisions half are braided and the other half are not and the turnout does not seem to affect the placings at all... it is disturbing because braiding costs a lot of money and at my barn it is mandatory - so if I am in an unrated division and I get beat by someone who is not braided, my husband always asks, "why did we have to pay $xx for braiding when it does not matter anyway?"
At least for someone on a budget, it is a hard question to answer......

Trixie
Sep. 8, 2009, 02:59 PM
It counts.

Will the messy kid with the better trip pin over the tidier rider with a lesser trip? Technically, probably not, but it's judges's discretion, and you can imagine that any judge will look less favorably on a messy kid and there will be far more attention drawn to their faults.

Second, if you present yourself professionally, they're extra likely to take you seriously because it presents the impression that you care about horsemanship and turnout.

Now, I'm not talking about having the trendiest outfit, only about being tidy, correct, and properly put together.

My thought is that it's always worth my effort to turn out well, because lord knows my riding will probably, at some point, be less than ideal - so why give them something ELSE to mark me down for?

SkipChange
Sep. 8, 2009, 03:12 PM
It is interesting overall because I have been to A shows and in some of the unrated divisions half are braided and the other half are not and the turnout does not seem to affect the placings at all... it is disturbing because braiding costs a lot of money and at my barn it is mandatory - so if I am in an unrated division and I get beat by someone who is not braided, my husband always asks, "why did we have to pay $xx for braiding when it does not matter anyway?"
At least for someone on a budget, it is a hard question to answer......

Super frustrating.

I don't think it counts a fixed amount really. I was turned out neat and clean for a LOCAL medal, had a great trip. I went first and didn't know we had to go back to be tested on the flat...untacked and hosed off my horse (that's what I get for showing without a trainer). 20 minutes later gate steward yelled at me to "come back! hurry!" We went in with shirt unbuttoned, no choker, hair a little messy, I'm pretty sure my pants had splash marks from hosing off and my coat was probably dusty, and horse sopping wet. :eek: We still won. I was shocked, but obviously happy I had won. I clearly got no bonus points for being well turned out, I guess I impressed the judge enough with my riding that she didn't care. Maybe she realized I just made a silly mistake?

I wouldn't try it again though!

JinxyFish313
Sep. 8, 2009, 03:30 PM
It is interesting overall because I have been to A shows and in some of the unrated divisions half are braided and the other half are not and the turnout does not seem to affect the placings at all... it is disturbing because braiding costs a lot of money and at my barn it is mandatory - so if I am in an unrated division and I get beat by someone who is not braided, my husband always asks, "why did we have to pay $xx for braiding when it does not matter anyway?"
At least for someone on a budget, it is a hard question to answer......
I find it kind of disrespectful when people go to rated horse shows and choose to skip the braids for an unrated division. You're still showing in front of a judge who is likely also judging rated classes...

It irritates me BIG TIME when I see horses showing in the unrated hunters at say, HITS, unbraided. It takes away from the spirit of showing. Braiding is a very simple thing that goes a long way in making a horse look tidy and if you learn to do it yourself it doesn't have to be expensive.

luvs2ridewbs
Sep. 8, 2009, 03:30 PM
If the senario is: 2 SS kids: one is turned out well while the other is neat but not quite right (show bows apply here :-p) and the rounds are equal, the better turned out kid wins. If the NQR kid has a better round, he or she wins.

As for braiding for unrated divisions, it depends on what you are using it for. If it is for schooling purposes, I wouldn't braid. If it is your main division and/or you think you can win it, I would braid b/c if it comes down to you or another rider for the win, you want the extra points.

Edited to add: I think not braiding is a sign of the times. People are trying to save money. Not to mention HITS did say that braiding isn't required for non rated divisions (for better or worse).

LD1129
Sep. 8, 2009, 04:14 PM
Not to sound snarky at all, I know it is a bit off topic, but for those concerned about not braiding or paying for braiding why not learn to do it your self? I learned on my own, do my horse and others at the farm as well. I have saved lots of cash over the years and got pretty good at it.


It is interesting overall because I have been to A shows and in some of the unrated divisions half are braided and the other half are not and the turnout does not seem to affect the placings at all... it is disturbing because braiding costs a lot of money and at my barn it is mandatory - so if I am in an unrated division and I get beat by someone who is not braided, my husband always asks, "why did we have to pay $xx for braiding when it does not matter anyway?"
At least for someone on a budget, it is a hard question to answer......

Hunter Mom
Sep. 8, 2009, 04:20 PM
I announced at a show once and had a parent come up to the judge and ask why Little Susie had placed so low (like 9th out of 10 or something) in a hack. The kid wore dark knit pants, a tee and a blue plastic helmet. There were kids who may have had a slightly less impressive hack, but they presented the picture the judge wanted overall. Judge told htem this, and we haven't seen tehm at any shows since. This was a beginner division at a local show, so it isn't uncommon to see kids in jods, polos and helmets, especially at hte earlier shows in the year.

Sorry, but if you're going to show, do what is expected at the level you're showing at. I run a series of fun shows at my barn, and specifically indicate that show clothing is not necessary. Still, all of our girls show in polos, jods and their show helmets. However, the one girl showing in a rainbow helmet cover and purple half-chaps was as welcomed as the others given the venue. Our trainer would've had a fit, but she wasn't one of ours.

Won For Fun
Sep. 8, 2009, 05:01 PM
It counts the same in the show ring as it does in a job interview. The job applicant can do the job, is friendly and personable; but looks sloppy and disheveled wearing inappropriate attire. The hiring manager assumes their work will be sloppy and disheveled and they will be unprepared.

A lesser qualified person comes in with a crisp, clean resume, a good suit and a neat, tidy appearance; but a little less qualified. The hiring manager thinks that this person will be prepared, organized and put in an effort.

Same in the show ring...I imagine the judge sees an untidy competitor and returns phone calls on their cell phone or scores the previous riders. Maybe not that obvious, but maybe the judge does not pay as much attention as the neatly turned out rider.

superpony123
Sep. 8, 2009, 06:07 PM
turnout absolutely counts. if youre willing to pay to show, you have to be willing to pay and look the part too: a good, clean, conservative turnout does NOT have to break the bank! there's TONS of good finds on ebay, on consignment, and in hand-me-downs from the older girls in the barn. tall boots are probably the only thing that can be a bit harder to come about cheaply, as some people find they only fit in more expensive brands, but if you leave out the boots (and if we're talking an SS kid were talking paddocks anyway, not tall boots--paddock boots are easy to come by) you can put together a nice show outfit for under $150. even under $100, depending on what you buy.

bad turnout is VERY rude and disrespectful to the judge and absolutely SHOULD and DOES come into account when it's time to pin the classes. it's not a matter of who's got the prettiest or newest or trendiest clothes. it's about the amount of effort the rider puts in (now obviously, you might try your heart out and still have a crappy round in which case no, you wont win) to at least look the part and be presentable. a judge does not want to see your hair falling out of the back of your helmet or in one of those awful show bows (unless you do dressage where show bows are common from what ive been told) hairnets are cheaper than show bows! a judge wants to see a neat and tidy rider and horse. that means the clothes should fit well to show off equitation. horse should be sparkling clean. as should the riders clothes. hair should be tucked away inside helmet. in general, there should be nothing distracting about your apparel.

Ajierene
Sep. 8, 2009, 06:18 PM
It counts to a degree. If your child does not have hunter hair or the latest fashion in helmets or saddles - not a big deal.

On the other hand, my friend went to a show and it was very hot out. She is heat sensitive anyway, so she took off her collar and unbuttoned the top two buttons of her shirt, along with taking her jacket off. The class was called a little early, so she quickly threw her jacket back on and went in the ring. She pinned third in each class of the division. The judge came over afterward (or she asked the judge - cannot remember which) and stated she would have pinned higher because she and her horse looked great, but the judge did not feel right pinning her over other riders who took the time to be more presentable. She said she understood the weather, but since the buttons were not buttoned on her shirt, that was the kicker. The collar being off was not so much the issue - the buttons made her look like she did not try.

So, being neat and tidy and looking like you at least tried is important. If you go to a schooling show, a jacket a little big on a child is more forgiven than at an A rated show (kind of like - if you have the money for the rated shows, you should be able to buy a jacket that fits).

hellerkm
Sep. 8, 2009, 07:05 PM
Just FYI, my girls will be properly turned out. Clean tack , saddle pads that fit, correctly fitting coats , LONG sleeved shirts, properly fitting jods and britches and boots, you know the whole 9 yards. I grew up with a mother/trainer who read GM like the bible we could arrive in no other fashion LOL!
My question was purely to find out if it really "counted" just in case anyone was panicking that I was taking the kids in less than proper fashion this weekend LOL!!! The poster who was placed behind someone unbraided has a point , if you take the time to do it right I personally think you get extra credit LOL!
I totally agree that it is a sign of respect and we braid even for local shows ( for kids it makes a difference they like to see their ponies all fancy even if they are not ready to do the "fancy" shows) it also gives them time to learn, my Dd is 5 and we have been pulling manes and clipping white socks all week. She said to me today, this is a LOT of work huh mom? I think its best she figures that out NOW that way she can remember that she needs to keep helping me!!

dogchushu
Sep. 8, 2009, 08:44 PM
I don't know that it counts officially (as in the judge takes off points for it), but we're all human (including judges, LOL) and subject to the halo effect and the power of first impressions.

Frankly, there's so little I can control at a show that I like to make sure those few things I can control are done to perfection. For me, good turnout means the horse comes first and everything is clean, well fitted, and in good shape. My hair is neatly contained, but I don't know if it's perfect hunter hair. As long as it's not distracting, I don't care. Likewise, I have no idea what the latest trends are. I can never keep track.

Gry2Yng
Sep. 8, 2009, 08:44 PM
Just FYI, my girls will be properly turned out. Clean tack , saddle pads that fit, correctly fitting coats , LONG sleeved shirts, properly fitting jods and britches and boots, you know the whole 9 yards. I grew up with a mother/trainer who read GM like the bible we could arrive in no other fashion LOL!
My question was purely to find out if it really "counted" just in case anyone was panicking that I was taking the kids in less than proper fashion this weekend LOL!!! The poster who was placed behind someone unbraided has a point , if you take the time to do it right I personally think you get extra credit LOL!
I totally agree that it is a sign of respect and we braid even for local shows ( for kids it makes a difference they like to see their ponies all fancy even if they are not ready to do the "fancy" shows) it also gives them time to learn, my Dd is 5 and we have been pulling manes and clipping white socks all week. She said to me today, this is a LOT of work huh mom? I think its best she figures that out NOW that way she can remember that she needs to keep helping me!!


It probably qualifies me for therapy that I cannot WAIT until my 2 yo DD and I are in the barn pulling mane and clipping socks. It would be AWESOME if I only have 3 more years to go. I am just entertaining the idea of a pony search.

mvp
Sep. 8, 2009, 11:28 PM
Turn out is worth 150% of your score.

Not talking about it ad nauseum counts for 170%

I don't mean to single out the OP, but seriously y'all: Please don't start a fussy little thread about hairdos and then say it didn't matter or shouldn't. If you knew that, or it was your opinion going in, what was the point?

If this is just too bitchy, I apologize. I'm just saying that you should tie up the internet with total wastes of time. Ask me how I know....

hellerkm
Sep. 9, 2009, 06:35 AM
It probably qualifies me for therapy that I cannot WAIT until my 2 yo DD and I are in the barn pulling mane and clipping socks. It would be AWESOME if I only have 3 more years to go. I am just entertaining the idea of a pony search.

BE CAREFUL, it has once again taken over our lives LOL!! my poor husband cannot believe all the things we find to keep us occupied at the barn, of course then there is no time for cleaning the HOUSE!!! j/k he is doing a great job cleaning the house.

mothermucker12
Sep. 9, 2009, 07:04 AM
wasnt there something from the usef stating that because of the economy braiding/not braiding wasnt going to matter this year?? not sure but i thought i read something about it....

bizbachfan
Sep. 9, 2009, 07:23 AM
From what I have read from judges yes braiding is expected however if you are not good at braiding and cannot afford to pay for it better to not braid and have a neatly pulled mane. Bottom line poor braids look worse than no braids at all. I agree though just practice and you should be able to braid yourself, its really not that difficult if you have a nicely pulled mane.

As for turnout, yes it counts, more than likely its going to count when the SS kids are very close and the nicely turned out kid is going to get the edge over the not nicely turned out kid. For kids especially buying second hand nice stuff on Ebay etc is really easy to do. I have a kid at my barn whose mom has bought her several pairs of nice jods for a total of $12! And beautiful paddock boots for $4!! So it can be done. (by the way I found her a nice show jacket for $5 at a show) Its pretty easy to turn a kid out nicely.

Noctis
Sep. 9, 2009, 07:26 AM
It probably qualifies me for therapy that I cannot WAIT until my 2 yo DD and I are in the barn pulling mane and clipping socks. It would be AWESOME if I only have 3 more years to go. I am just entertaining the idea of a pony search.

Its ok, my 21mo old IS at the barn pulling manes and clipping socks with me! She's getting ready for her first show, in leadline, on the local, but VERY NICE, circuit, starting next saturday, and she'll be showing in a polo, jods, paddock boots and a black schooling helmet (only reasonably priced helmet that got small enough). The whole shebang is going to have to wait because we couldn't FIND anything small enough that wasn't ridiculously expensive (2T-4T are HARD to find), and thats pretty much par for the course in our leadline anyway. But her pony will be spitshined! Not braided, but our circuit specifically asks for horses/ponies not to be braided, so it works!

eby
Sep. 9, 2009, 07:33 AM
The bigger the show the more turnout is a factor in final placings. Even on a local level a judge is going to notice turnout. I am not saying a child that puts in a far better trip is not going to beat a lessor trip, but it will help if trips are similar. On the flat, you can't help but pay attention to overall turnout. Even in Leadline turnout is going to be a consideration in placement of winners.

Midge
Sep. 9, 2009, 08:09 AM
wasnt there something from the usef stating that because of the economy braiding/not braiding wasnt going to matter this year?? not sure but i thought i read something about it....

I wouldn't think so, since braiding is practically free.

Oh, you mean if you chose to pay someone to do it for you! Is the USEF going to say, 'It's okay to be dirty, since day care is expensive?' :rolleyes:

Vandy
Sep. 9, 2009, 08:39 AM
Frankly, there's so little I can control at a show that I like to make sure those few things I can control are done to perfection.Amen. Riding is the hard part, looking nice is EASY! I've never understood why people would handicap themselves before even entering the ring. Money is never an excuse...if you can afford to horse show, skip one show and instead buy the appropriate clothing for next time. Hairnets are cheap and soap and water are practically free.

When I judge a local show, yes turnout counts. Especially having a clean horse or pony. At the local level, I'd be likely to pin a clean, well groomed pony over a filthy nicer mover in a short stirrup hack...and I'd be happy to explain my reasoning to any kids/parents/trainers who asked.

MHM
Sep. 9, 2009, 08:50 AM
wasnt there something from the usef stating that because of the economy braiding/not braiding wasnt going to matter this year?? not sure but i thought i read something about it....

It was NOT the USEF that made this statement.

A couple of show management companies made the statement about their own circuits.

luvs2ridewbs
Sep. 9, 2009, 09:34 AM
yes, and it was that braiding wouldn't count in unrated classes.

TB110
Sep. 9, 2009, 09:58 AM
This is only my opinion but I think it is better not to braid in an unrated class. It is like putting tall boots on your SS kid. No braids but a nice neat pulled mane and pretty natural tail looks better in a SS or LS class. As for the kid - black helmet, white shirt with collar, navy jacket, a nice pair of jods, those straps that wrap around their knees (been a while and I forget the name of them), and a clean pair of short boots. And I know braids on a little kid look cute but for the sake of the future teach them to tuck their hair in the helmet. None of my daughters trainers have ever allowed hair to stick out of the helmet....

bizbachfan
Sep. 9, 2009, 01:44 PM
I agree I prefer kids in short boots! However I don't think that translates to braiding. I think most horses look better braided. However at the same time I think its definitely better to not braid at all than do a half-#@% job on the braids.

heartinrye
Sep. 9, 2009, 03:12 PM
I find it kind of disrespectful when people go to rated horse shows and choose to skip the braids for an unrated division. You're still showing in front of a judge who is likely also judging rated classes...

It irritates me BIG TIME when I see horses showing in the unrated hunters at say, HITS, unbraided. It takes away from the spirit of showing. Braiding is a very simple thing that goes a long way in making a horse look tidy and if you learn to do it yourself it doesn't have to be expensive.

Yes, I understand this, but if I'm doing my hunter in 1 Low Hunter class at 8:30 on a wednesday morning? When I'm doing rated division(s) Fri/Sat/Sun- no I'm not going to braid, sorry.
But if I was doing something like the Novice Adult Eq (or something similar- not a division you use as a warmup like the Lows) I would braid, because I'm doing a division.

Oldenburg99
Sep. 9, 2009, 03:23 PM
You can easily get a small kid outfitted nicely on ebay or bits and barter. You can get a deal on a budget and look sharp. You only get once chance at a good impression, looking good will only help a nice a trip.

findeight
Sep. 9, 2009, 03:46 PM
I don't braid (er...pay somebody to braid) in most unrated classes, like modified or low BUT I do braid for my own unrated 2'6" division if it is at a AA show. Just prefer it that way. Never braid at unrated shows. Niether does anybody else around here.

There really is no rule one way or the other...it's the old conventional versus unconventional issue.

I dunno, the way I read this OP it was directed at some poor kid with scraggly hair peeking out all around the helmet bottom and a jacket 3 sizes too big, not braiding the horse.

Perception is everything and most judges will tell you they get their winner and a few others to back that up as they enter the ring, up to them to lose it. If you make a bad impression or look sloppy, gonna be hard to get on that short list. The bigger the class is, the harder it will be to overcome a negative first impression.

BTW, unbraided does not mean unkept. Neatly pulled, proper bridle path and clean.

Sing Mia Song
Sep. 9, 2009, 05:04 PM
You had me nodding along with you until this paragraph:


I imagine the judge sees an untidy competitor and returns phone calls on their cell phone or scores the previous riders. Maybe not that obvious, but maybe the judge does not pay as much attention as the neatly turned out rider.

I pay just as much attention to the poorly turned-out rider. But I do anticipate that they will be at least a cut below the competition. I'm rarely proven wrong (although it has happened).

As said so well so many times: Do you want to work your way down from a score of 100 or up from 60?

HenryisBlaisin'
Sep. 9, 2009, 06:26 PM
I would braid my horse for a local 4-H show (and have repeatedly pinned high in showmanship classes over those who don't!). It shows the judge that you are trying your best to show your horse to his best advantage, that you understand the tradition of showing, and that you probably put effort into every aspect of horsemanship.