Please critique this event prospect

[RegentLion]

Could you guys critique some photos for me?

I've been putting off this post (although wanted to make it for a long time now) because I didn't know how to pare it down into a concise question rather than a long drawn out ramble.

My background is that I grew up eventing/pony club (up to C-3) and then moved to an area where there is really ONLY speed/gaming and English and Western pleasure.

Basically, my horse's personality is great for me. I can be a weenie (gosh where did all the confidence of my teen years go?). I don't have huge aspirations in terms of eventing. Basically I want safe, fun rides at any event I do, goals being completion and being somewhat competitive. I don't see myself having the cajones to do much more than Training. On the right horse I MIGHT consider going Training or schooling prelim.

The horse I have now was born and raised as a Hunter Under Saddle and Western Pleasure horse. I did those two things with him for two years and he was successful. Then I was bored, wanted to event again, and so started taking lessons with my old trainer (three hours away). I'm bascially working "on my own" and trying to decide if this horse is going to accomplish my goals or if I'm wasting my time.

He seems to enjoy what he's doing and is transitioning quite well to the whole new discipline thing. He's honest to his fences... it is the QUALITY of his jump I'm worried about. I'm wondering, how much CAN you fix with gymnastics???

Trainer thinks that the horse is capable of BN but after a lot of work. He sees the horse as topping out at 3'. Now, the horse got a month off (he was sick) in between our two lessons with the trainer and the trainer still felt that Tuff had improved GREATLY in both his flat and jumping. We had one lesson at the end of May, then he was off for all of june, worked for 2 weeks and was back for a lesson in mid July. He's done gymnastics in two of those lessons (2 or 3 fences in a line) and just starting to gallop fences.

Any thoughts or opinions are really welcome here. I've got an offer from someone to buy him (see my post in Off Course) so it isn't like I can't sell him and get something else, but I really love this horse and his personality to the point that I'm almost willing to give up my dream of eventing again just to keep him around. :sadsmile:

Ok on to some copious amounts of photos.
My website--they're on the front page, Photos, News, and Horses. He's the big red gelding....

www.heritageoaksfarm.com

And there are more on my Facebook (public). Some of them are duplicates but I put the good, bad, AND UGLY on FB but not on the website.

MAY: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2124278&id=40600898&l=603dbfbba4

JULY: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2134590&id=40600898&l=bc0ce7b2ad



Is this a losing battle? Keep in mind I'm doing this largely on my own with lessons once or twice a month. I'm OK with "harsh." I just am really confused and trying to sort it all out.

[Equa]

What a lovely horse! And what on earth do you think is wrong with his jump? Even pretty ordinary jumpers can make perfectly nice eventers up to 1*/Prelim level. If everything else is in place (soundness, rideability, amiability, basic suppleness, enthusiasm) why would you question this horse's ability?

[retreadeventer]

Is it a losing battle, no no no.
Keep, keep keep this horse if you like him and he's nice - and looks like he is trying hard!
Learn, enjoy, and go all the way. Don't worry about tomorrow. Ride for today. Many a backyard horse has gone to the Olympics, my dear. And he's certainly not "backyard", he's an accomplished show horse so I say go for it.

[jn4jenny]

If it's just a question of the leg hanging, it looks to my (untrained, unqualified) eye as if the horse is just...smart. He's not one of those horses who's going to tuck his little knees up for a 12-inch crossrail. When he's presented with a reasonable challenge, he seems capable of jumping in decent form. And if he's cute and has a good willing personality, what more could you ask for?

If it were my horse, I'd hand the reins over to my trainer and ask her to school him on the long line over fences (those stacker/stand combos make this a safe endeavor). My trainer does this with pretty much every horse that comes through for training, and it seems to produce better and faster results than gymnastic exercises. Of course gymnastics are useful, but it helps if the horse has his act together first. You can put a riderless horse over a jump many more times in a day than you can with a rider on board, doing less joint damage in the process and learning more about what the horse does if/when the rider gets out of its way.

[EventerAJ]

From the photos, I see a very green horse who doesn't always know what to do with this legs and body. It looks like you've had to literally "shove" him over some of the fences.

How long has this horse been jumping? To me, it seems like you need to go back to small cross-rails and verticals, lots of them, so that he can concentrate more on "How To Leave The Ground And Land Safely." The fences in your photos, while not huge, seem to be a bit much for him to handle. I'd build a line of low bounces (building up to at least 3 or 4) to help him learn to compress his body, snap the knees, snap the hocks, and think quickly. It won't presto-chango fix his form, but it will make him more aware of his body.

How forward is he? Does he "take" you to the fences, like he LOVES to jump? Or does he just throw himself over it because he's a good guy, and wants to do what you ask? You must be very careful with the latter type of horse, because they are easier to overface and "lie" to them by asking for more than they can give. A horse who really honestly loves to jump, even with questionable form, can handle mistakes better because he's constantly thinking (on his own!) how to best make it to the other side.


I see no reason why a HUS/WP-bred horse cannot do lower level eventing. As you said, he's a wonderful partner and looks very cute on the flat. But don't rush the jumping, especially if you feel like it's not high on his list of natural talents. ;) His form will limit his scope (as your trainer said), but he must make up for it with desire and brains-- wanting to get to the other side, and knowing how to do it safely in whatever style he can.

I know low jumps can make them bored, but mix it up with bounces, one-strides, scary tarps, etc. Make sure he stays 100% in front of your leg, all the time. Be careful to NOT throw your upper body ahead, and overweight his already lazy front end.

I would also free-jump him if possible, so that he can learn on his own. In that situation, you can make the jumps a little bigger to challenge him (but don't scare him!), without having to worry about him landing in a heap on *you*. :) You can also chase him a bit with the lunge whip to get him moving forward, and let him deal with whatever distance he gets to.

Good luck!

[RegentLion]

What a lovely horse! And what on earth do you think is wrong with his jump? Even pretty ordinary jumpers can make perfectly nice eventers up to 1*/Prelim level. If everything else is in place (soundness, rideability, amiability, basic suppleness, enthusiasm) why would you question this horse's ability?


To quote my trainer "he hangs his legs like dirty laundry" Not aLL the time, no. But a large portion of the time. Sometimes I think "we can do this" and other times I'm thinking "this isn't his bag."

The trainer has told me that 3' is his top. So Prelim is out of the question and Novice is right at the top of the line. Obviously the trainer could be mistaken but so far he's been really honest and great.

He's sound, he's ridable, he's mostly amiable (he has a bit of a stubborn streak) he's supple, he isn't enthusiastic about ANYTHING (that is the pleasure horse breeding) but he's totally willing.

He's literally the kind of horse you can take out of the stall at a horse show, get on and ride with no longing and go in and win a HUS class. Literally. His transition to dressage requires more warmup and same with jumping...

[RegentLion]

Is it a losing battle, no no no.
Keep, keep keep this horse if you like him and he's nice - and looks like he is trying hard!
Learn, enjoy, and go all the way. Don't worry about tomorrow. Ride for today. Many a backyard horse has gone to the Olympics, my dear. And he's certainly not "backyard", he's an accomplished show horse so I say go for it.

He is trying. Do you think it matters that he's accomplished in WESTERN pleasure and western-style-English? ;)

[eventer_mi]

OK - what I see a horse just like my beloved Saint of a Paint I just sold. Sam jumped a LOT like your boy - hung his knees because he was jumping over his forehand. It looks like you boy is having trouble lifting his shoulder, especially when you get him deep to a fence, and so he jumps up and over, making up for his lack of lift in his knees/shoulder by having a back-cracking jump. Here are some pictures of Sam, sort of doing exactly what your boy is doing:
Sam loose with his front legs (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2137780510053515467qOuAsO)
Getting in too deep (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2700534060053515467jOMVEx)
Again - uck (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2990547090053515467MVmIwY)

But then, after lots of strengthening work and getting him to canter UPhill to his fences, he started to look consistently like this:
XC planter (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2551085460053515467JUVHlY)
stadium (http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2471251000053515467HKnnua)
stadium again (http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2471251000053515467HKnnua)
XC cabin (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2285127490053515467ZzdaDh)

No, he'll never be a knee-snapper, but his saving grace was that we NEVER, ever had a rail down in competition (up through Novice, and then I sold him, but I did a 3'3-3'6 jumper round with him and we went clear). He also never touched a fence xc. There is one picture on your Facebook page that alarms me - the one where he appears to have scissored a rail between his front and back legs! :eek: Does he normally have rails down? Have you tried him xc? Is he more careful over solid fences? Sam hung his legs at times, but he was a very careful jumper and respected the rails, and he didn't like to touch them.

My suggestion to you would be to make sure that you have a very uphill, bouncy canter, which will keep his shoulder lifted up to the base of the fence, and then allow him to jump up into you.

Good luck! He's a cutie, and I hope you can make things work.

[RegentLion]

If it's just a question of the leg hanging, it looks to my (untrained, unqualified) eye as if the horse is just...smart. He's not one of those horses who's going to tuck his little knees up for a 12-inch crossrail. When he's presented with a reasonable challenge, he seems capable of jumping in decent form. And if he's cute and has a good willing personality, what more could you ask for?

If it were my horse, I'd hand the reins over to my trainer and ask her to school him on the long line over fences (those stacker/stand combos make this a safe endeavor). My trainer does this with pretty much every horse that comes through for training, and it seems to produce better and faster results than gymnastic exercises. Of course gymnastics are useful, but it helps if the horse has his act together first. You can put a riderless horse over a jump many more times in a day than you can with a rider on board, doing less joint damage in the process and learning more about what the horse does if/when the rider gets out of its way.


This post caught my attention. I don't know if the trainer can do that option... it is a bit of an interesting situation with him. He's very good but he's more of a teacher-trainer, and isn't taking horses on for training. I'd be willing to do the long lining and get him over the fences, if someone could tell me what to do. It is something I could consider.

To be honest it isn't so much the leg hanging that bothers me (ok it does) because I believe he can "get up" high enough over them to not cause a problem. But he has this issue with sort of ski-jumping over fences, folding his legs under his body. When we galloped one fence (ONE) it scared me because he made no adjustments in his stride, just launched over.

Here's the photo. http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs166.snc1/6212_583580827587_40600898_34362669_5117615_n.jpg

What do you do to teach the horse to rock back and JUMP? Can they learn this?

[RegentLion]

From the photos, I see a very green horse who doesn't always know what to do with this legs and body. It looks like you've had to literally "shove" him over some of the fences.

How long has this horse been jumping? To me, it seems like you need to go back to small cross-rails and verticals, lots of them, so that he can concentrate more on "How To Leave The Ground And Land Safely." The fences in your photos, while not huge, seem to be a bit much for him to handle. I'd build a line of low bounces (building up to at least 3 or 4) to help him learn to compress his body, snap the knees, snap the hocks, and think quickly. It won't presto-chango fix his form, but it will make him more aware of his body.

How forward is he? Does he "take" you to the fences, like he LOVES to jump? Or does he just throw himself over it because he's a good guy, and wants to do what you ask? You must be very careful with the latter type of horse, because they are easier to overface and "lie" to them by asking for more than they can give. A horse who really honestly loves to jump, even with questionable form, can handle mistakes better because he's constantly thinking (on his own!) how to best make it to the other side.


I see no reason why a HUS/WP-bred horse cannot do lower level eventing. As you said, he's a wonderful partner and looks very cute on the flat. But don't rush the jumping, especially if you feel like it's not high on his list of natural talents. ;) His form will limit his scope (as your trainer said), but he must make up for it with desire and brains-- wanting to get to the other side, and knowing how to do it safely in whatever style he can.

I know low jumps can make them bored, but mix it up with bounces, one-strides, scary tarps, etc. Make sure he stays 100% in front of your leg, all the time. Be careful to NOT throw your upper body ahead, and overweight his already lazy front end.

I would also free-jump him if possible, so that he can learn on his own. In that situation, you can make the jumps a little bigger to challenge him (but don't scare him!), without having to worry about him landing in a heap on *you*. :) You can also chase him a bit with the lunge whip to get him moving forward, and let him deal with whatever distance he gets to.

Good luck!


Ok to answer some of your quesitons. He is green. His previous owner did a little jumping with him (a 2 week crash course where they RAN him at the fences and beat him over them). When I got him to use as a WP horse, he was really nervous even going over poles on the ground. He would still jump willingly but was totally nervous. I stopped jumping and I didn't do anything but poles for 2 years until he got his confidence back and was able to canter over poles on the ground. He was pretty fried..and then this spring started him over fences again. The photos are all from lessons with my trainer who was creating exercises / gymnastics that he felt would help the horse learn.

When you're on him he doesn't feel like he struggles to jump AT ALL.... but he pulls a lot of rails and sometimes he feels akward. He completely is green insomuch as his "education" has been rushed and spotty. I feel that the trainer is building up really great exercises. What we don't have pics of are all the pole work or the first lesson. So sometimes, yes, I feel the horse is being pushed but I can see the reason why. Maybe it isn't appopriate and maybe it is. I'm going to ruminate on that tonight. I really respect the trainer and do sort of blindly trust him. ;)

I think that bounces are a great idea. I'm going to try them. My trainer told me that my "job" until my next lesson was to get him taking me to the fences. He does sometimes but other times he just does it because he's a good guy. He's honest to a fault, too. I feel that he might not stop if he SHOULD and would try anyway. I could be wrong but my hugest fear is that we'll have a rotational.

I've also considered longing him over fences, as the arena I have to work in is not appropriate for free jumping as it is not fenced in! :lol:

I don't WANT to give up but I also don't WANT to sour my horse or put him in a gratuitiously unsafe position. Given that eventing is already dangerous I don't want to add more risks.

[jn4jenny]

This post caught my attention. I don't know if the trainer can do that option... it is a bit of an interesting situation with him. He's very good but he's more of a teacher-trainer, and isn't taking horses on for training. I'd be willing to do the long lining and get him over the fences, if someone could tell me what to do. It is something I could consider.

It is not something I would ever recommend to an amateur. Having seen my trainer do it many times, it's not something I would try to do myself. Ever. And I consider myself a very good "regular" lunge-line operator. :)

Some people also do it with free jumping, but with free jumping you can't be quite as directive about things like consistent pace and exactly where/how/what angle to turn into the fence. But in the absence of long lining, free jumping through gymnastics would help.

What do you do to teach the horse to rock back and JUMP? Can they learn this?

Assuming the horse is not a wicked coward or a total idiot, yes. Again, I've seen it done on the long line many a time.

If you're interested, the trainer that I'm talking about is only about 4.5 hours away from you (I recently moved from Michigan to Ohio). You could chat them up about it; I don't know if they "give lessons" on how to long line, but at the very least they'd probably let you watch THEM do it. PM me if you want more details.

[EventerAJ]

He's sound, he's ridable, he's mostly amiable (he has a bit of a stubborn streak) he's supple, he isn't enthusiastic about ANYTHING (that is the pleasure horse breeding) but he's totally willing.

LOL. I can totally relate to this. There's a QH at the farm, stockhorse type all the way, that I taught to jump last year. He has the same attitude... enthusiasm is reserved solely for FOOD. Lazy, but will do what you ask, grudgingly at first. In the beginning, I had many second (and third...) thoughts that this horse Was Not A Jumper. This QH had the definite opinion that If Horses Were Meant To Fly, They Would Have Wings. :lol:

He was as fat as a sumo wrestler (and this was AFTER he lost 100+lbs) and it was seriously scary to point him at a 10" crossrail at first. It took several days for him to get the concept of "all legs leave the ground, and there is a flight phase." He'd trot and canter groundpoles all day with confidence, in various complex configurations, but actually leaving the ground was difficult. He learned best from the canter (harder to step over one leg at a time!), and I had to kick/beat him over it initially, with ENORMOUS praise on the landing side. After about six "jump" schools, something clicked, and he's been a jumping machine ever since. He loves it now, hops over 3' coops in the hunt field and could easily pack a monkey around BN. He could go novice with a good ride, but I'd say that's the limit of his scope.

He has a bit better form than your horse, but the point of my story is that even the least-likely horses can sometimes surprise you. Don't give up yet. :) In my QH horse's case, I firmly believe PRAISING him, making a big deal for any and every improving effort made the difference. As you said, he is kinda "indifferent" to most anything the rider asks. But I made him think he was Gem Twist for accomplishing a 10" vertical, and his outlook greatly improved. :)

[RegentLion]

There is one picture on your Facebook page that alarms me - the one where he appears to have scissored a rail between his front and back legs! :eek: Does he normally have rails down? Have you tried him xc? Is he more careful over solid fences? Sam hung his legs at times, but he was a very careful jumper and respected the rails, and he didn't like to touch them.

My suggestion to you would be to make sure that you have a very uphill, bouncy canter, which will keep his shoulder lifted up to the base of the fence, and then allow him to jump up into you.

Good luck! He's a cutie, and I hope you can make things work.

Your description of what happens through his body is very accurate. He can be back cracking and he's trying to compensate through his body what he's not doing in his legs.

The picture on the FB page was really a sucky moment. I don't think he actually even tried in that picture. :( He does have rails down fairly frequently but generally only when he gets tired at the end. The photo with the scary rail (I'm assuming the one where he looks like he's going to nosedive) was at the end of the lesson. He has jumped over solid fences and is a lot more careful. In the picture he did pick himself up and then afterward REALLY was careful. He scared himself... and me.

His rails are generally like he's trailing one of his front hooves over the top pole... like feeling where it is. He does respect the rails, then gets lazy and knocks one or two, then he tries hard for a while again. I'm not sure what to think of this--laziness maybe?

[RegentLion]

There is one picture on your Facebook page that alarms me - the one where he appears to have scissored a rail between his front and back legs! :eek: Does he normally have rails down? Have you tried him xc? Is he more careful over solid fences? Sam hung his legs at times, but he was a very careful jumper and respected the rails, and he didn't like to touch them.

My suggestion to you would be to make sure that you have a very uphill, bouncy canter, which will keep his shoulder lifted up to the base of the fence, and then allow him to jump up into you.

Good luck! He's a cutie, and I hope you can make things work.

Your description of what happens through his body is very accurate. He can be back cracking and he's trying to compensate through his body what he's not doing in his legs.

The picture on the FB page was really a sucky moment. I don't think he actually even tried in that picture. :( He does have rails down fairly frequently but generally only when he gets tired at the end. The photo with the scary rail (I'm assuming the one where he looks like he's going to nosedive) was at the end of the lesson. He has jumped over solid fences and is a lot more careful. In the picture he did pick himself up and then afterward REALLY was careful. He scared himself... and me.

His rails are generally like he's trailing one of his front hooves over the top pole... like feeling where it is. He does respect the rails, then gets lazy and knocks one or two, then he tries hard for a while again. I'm not sure what to think of this--laziness maybe?

Oh, and your horse is ADORABLE and he definitely improved with work. Coincidentally, Tuff is also a paint, just didn't get any color!

[RegentLion]

But I made him think he was Gem Twist for accomplishing a 10" vertical, and his outlook greatly improved. :)

HAHAHAHA that is hilarious. I'm going to try it. For real. :lol: It might make a difference to him, we shall see.

[RegentLion]

Assuming the horse is not a wicked coward or a total idiot, yes. Again, I've seen it done on the long line many a time.

If you're interested, the trainer that I'm talking about is only about 4.5 hours away from you (I recently moved from Michigan to Ohio). You could chat them up about it; I don't know if they "give lessons" on how to long line, but at the very least they'd probably let you watch THEM do it. PM me if you want more details.

He's lazy but not a coward or an idiot. You have a PM. :)

[eventer_mi]

Your description of what happens through his body is very accurate. He can be back cracking and he's trying to compensate through his body what he's not doing in his legs.

Oh, and your horse is ADORABLE and he definitely improved with work. Coincidentally, Tuff is also a paint, just didn't get any color!

Thanks! I adored Sam, and I have days when I truly regret selling him on.

I really believe more than ever, based on your description, that you're dealing with a horse that is on the forehand to the fence. He looks on the forehand in your flat pictures, too, and we all know that translates over to how the horse jumps.

Sam would practically pop me out of the saddle over some fences, which gave me an incredible feeling, but to my disappointment, he was hanging his legs. You are not jumping ahead - in fact, your form is quite commendable given what is going on underneath you at times! - but he is definitely jumping over his shoulder in a lot of the pics. Let me guess - when he takes a bit of a long spot, or even a flyer, his form gets better, no? And when you get in a tad deep, he cracks his back, but hangs his legs? That was Sam to a T.

Work on getting your canter very, very uphill - think "pop wheelies", keeping those hind legs driving up underneath him, lift your hands so that it helps to keep him in an uphill balance. As my trainer says, if he gets to pulling, don't pull back - put your leg on and pull "up", so you raise him off the forehand. Don't, don't, DON'T allow him to jump unless he's giving you a soft, uphill canter, one that you feel you can float the rein the last few strides, keep your leg on, and nothing changes. If they're pulling on you all the way to the fence, they're just fallen on the forehand and you need to get that forehand UP. Don't worry about his head, as long as it doesn't feel like you've turned into a lawn dart at the jump. Get the canter you want 4-5 strides out, even if you have to really get after him to do it, and then ride him "up and out" towards the jump. If he pulls and blasts through your hands, that's when you have the scary jumps and he could take you down - get as aggressive as you have to get to get him to listen to you. If he's the lazy type, then he needs a lot more lengthening/shortening work on the flat - open his canter stride, sit down, keep those hips moving (yours), keep your leg on, raise your hands, and think of bouncing him UP into a shorter canter, then let him go out again. You need a lazy horse to immediately jump off your leg forward, but you also need them between your hands and legs for balance. As Denny says, "rev the engine, then cock the lever" - you cannot create impulsion from nothing.

Good luck! I think that his carelessness at jumps probably stems from his laziness to rock back and balance himself to the fence, so I'd definitely work on balance. Btw, your dressage scores should improve immensely when he no longer looks heavy on the forehand. I know - I've been there. I used to score in the high 30s with Sam (35-39), and then after moving to my new trainer (thanks, Christan!), I was scoring in the low 30s before I sold him on.

[forestergirl99]

Honestly, I think you need a new trainer! That horse should not be jumping as high as some of those jumps are. He shouldn't be doing anything over 2ft until he gets better balance and learns his distances. I think part of the problem is that he is on his forehand. If you got him working consistently off his haunches, I bet he would start jumping better. However, I still think you need a new trainer because I'm no where near being able to be a trainer, and I can plainly see this horse is too green for the jump height. Plus didn't you say you where traveling 3 hours to get to him? This is a horse that you need to have weekly lessons with so that you can really progress. Find a good trainer in your area. Don't limit your self to jump eventing trainers though. My trainer is mainly H/J(but did some eventing), but she is still a fantastic trainer.

[idtogo]

I hate to be the one to disagree but I have a horse that jumps in a very similar fashion a lot of the time. He almost always placed very well at any sanctioned event we competed at, qualified for the AECs every year we competed at BN and novice.... but....even though I never felt him to be unsafe , almost all my cross country pics look similar to yours. My guy just is all about minimal effort.... We almost never had a stadium round without 1 rail down.
I made the decision to lease him out as a dressage horse (was showing first and schooling most of 2nd level) because I felt that eventually our luck would run out and he would flip on a fence. It was a very difficult decision because he was bold, never stopped and tons of fun to ride, but if he couldn't be bothered, or didn't have the talent to pick his knees up over a solid cross country fence consistantly (the occasional bad jump wouldn't bother me), I didn't want to be the one to get hurt or get him hurt....
You are the one who knows his training etc... In many of your pics he looks quite capable but you are the one questioning and I'm a firm believer in listening to troubling gut instincts..

[forestergirl99]

This post caught my attention. I don't know if the trainer can do that option... it is a bit of an interesting situation with him. He's very good but he's more of a teacher-trainer, and isn't taking horses on for training. I'd be willing to do the long lining and get him over the fences, if someone could tell me what to do. It is something I could consider.

To be honest it isn't so much the leg hanging that bothers me (ok it does) because I believe he can "get up" high enough over them to not cause a problem. But he has this issue with sort of ski-jumping over fences, folding his legs under his body. When we galloped one fence (ONE) it scared me because he made no adjustments in his stride, just launched over.

Here's the photo. http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs166.snc1/6212_583580827587_40600898_34362669_5117615_n.jpg

What do you do to teach the horse to rock back and JUMP? Can they learn this?

He didn't adjust because he doesn't know HOW to adjust. He's too green. Horses don't just naturally know how to adjust and rock back and collect. It really shows how willing he is that he simply didn't slam on the brakes and refuse. It scares ME that your trainer told you to do this. You should NEVER EVER gallop your horse at a fence. That is how you get rotational falls, etc. People that are riding cross country gallop between the fences. Whenever they approach a jump you will always(or you should at least) see them collect their horse to prepare for the jump. Some jumps need more collection than others based on their difficultly, but no one ever gallops flat out at a fence unless they want to kill their horse or themselves.

A good trainer should have already be helping you teach you horse to rock back. Some horses already know how to do this more than others, but all need to learn it to a certain degree. Learning this is one of the basics of jumping, IMO. Trust me. you sure as hell don't want to be out on a cross country course with a horse that can't rock back and adjust. :eek:

[Tazman09]

In order for him to rock back he needs to already know how to carry his weight on his hind end, if he knows this it will make it easier for him to understand what to do. (I am probably explaining it poorly but it makes sense in my head!) If he was already on his hind end and working through his back, he wouldn't need to rock back so much either. Perhaps you should sit and drive him to the fences instead of leaning forward in a half seat/two point? It would shift his weight which might make things easier.

Also, have you tried doing gymnastics over fences? It would definitely help him to rock his weight back and also snap up his front end. It would also help his timing as well as his striding. Gymnastics has done both me and my horse wonders, I would really recommend practicing if you haven't.

I think your horse could easily do lower level eventing. With a little more training he would be a wonderful partner.

[katerenee]

Honestly, I think you need a new trainer! That horse should not be jumping as high as some of those jumps are. He shouldn't be doing anything over 2ft until he gets better balance and learns his distances. I think part of the problem is that he is on his forehand. If you got him working consistently off his haunches, I bet he would start jumping better. However, I still think you need a new trainer because I'm no where near being able to be a trainer, and I can plainly see this horse is too green for the jump height. Plus didn't you say you where traveling 3 hours to get to him? This is a horse that you need to have weekly lessons with so that you can really progress. Find a good trainer in your area. Don't limit your self to jump eventing trainers though. My trainer is mainly H/J(but did some eventing), but she is still a fantastic trainer.

I happen to know the trainer mentioned here and he is by FAR the best trainer in the area. Some of us in the sticks are not fortunate enough to take weekly lessons, or have multiple choices of who to work with. I have worked with him plenty and will again at some point, and have also seen him school multiple horse/rider combinations. This trainer may push a horse at times, but I've never felt he asked anything of them that they weren't ready for. I've also usually felt if anyone was pushed it was the rider more so than the horse.

I believe this horse would make a very cute lower level event partner. He might take more time than some but I'm thinking he might stay a lot easier in the long run. You can come ride my mare anytime, she'll remind you how to get "taken to a jump":winkgrin: It boils down to how much you like him and how much time your willing to put into him. By switching careers you are asking him to go in a much different fashion. Trying new things and doing alot of the same things but differently.

Check your PM's :cool:

[Bobthehorse]

I can see from the pics that he CAN get his knees out of the way, at least horizontal. But he isnt in many pictures. He is green over fences, yes? Thats one reason. And also you are ahead of him in almost every picture and when youre not, you are likely doing too much with your upper body which is throwing off his balance and he drops his front end when you do that. He doesnt have the experience or the muscle yet to power through rider errors like that. My young horse is like that, he would rather I ride his back over the fence than throw myself on his neck. The horse is jumping too high for his level, and IMO so are you. Stick to lower fences and grid work to sharpen his skills, AND yours. Your position over fences needs many bounces. Wait, and slow down your upper body. And yes, sit to the fences, riding to the fence in 2pt will only throw more weight on his front end and make it even harder for him to get his legs up.

Also, better dressage will only make a better jumper. The more work from the hind end you do, shoulder in and counter canter, lengthening and shortening, will immensely help his abilities over fences.

[AKB]

Can you trailer to some clinics or camps taught by top notch trainers? I think you will get some ideas of what you need to work on to get the both of you eventing safely. Perhaps you can get a group of riders together and your local eventing association can bring in someone top notch to teach for a few days.

[yellowbritches]

I'm wondering how far deltawave's trainer is from the OP, because I feel like there are some big holes in horse and rider's training. Even if the lessons aren't weekly, there are ways to make a much bigger improvement.

My impression of the horse is that he just doesn't quite know what to do with himself, yet. I feel like if he knew how to really rock back and push, he'd get his little landing gear out of the way and make some progress. But in a lot of the pictures, I feel like he's arriving at the fences too low in the front and sprawled out. More flatwork, more gymnastics (better gymnastics?? Those gymnastic lines look disorganized and mind blowing to me), and more teaching him to step up under himself and PUSH off at the fence.

We have a very cute but very unathletic little horse here (he's a kid's starter horse, so our biggest priority was sainthood, not jumping ability). When I jump him, I have to WORK to get him rocked back on his haunches, marching strongly forward and to the base. When I ride him like that, he feels great and jumps great. If I let him canter in his natural frame (a little sprawly, a little low, and a little dead) he barely jumps and can be mildly terrifying. Your guy isn't nearly as bad as this one we have is, but I think he could benefit from the same type of ride- up, butt underneath, MARCHING forward to the bottom of his fences.

I'd also suggest, for the time being, of pulling the boots off. It is amazing how much incentive in getting their legs up jumping nekkid can give a lazy legged horse. ;)

I really, really like him. He's cute as a button, looks to have a great brain in his head, and WANTS to try hard. I think he looks pretty scopey in the pictures...though, video would be better to tell what he really looks like.

[EiRide]

Flat work.
Then some more flat work.
Then, did I mention flat work?

I would do a lot of helping this horse get off his forehand--square turns at the walk and trot, for instance. Halt and rein back and trot or canter off. Gobs of schooling figures. Any feeling that he is hanging or just sort of plonking along on his nose, shake it up with a transition, a turn, trot poles, and brisk hand gallop, whatever.

As to what I would work on over fences--lots of trot poles, little cross rails and small verticals, gymnastic lines kept small in height but that required him to do several things. Landing side balancing poles as well as take off placing poles can also help a lot.

I like trot poles into a cross rail, one stride, bounce, one stride or two stride (start with one element and slowly add in the others).

A grid is also nice, once he is getting the hang of the one and two strides mixed up with the odd bounce. I would start with a bounce, then add in a third element for a double bounce. Once he is OK with that, stick in a fourth fence for a triple bounce. You get the idea. :-)

Once he is coming down a gymnastic line a little more confidently, I like to do a four element line on the long diagonal, then come around the short end and go back across a short diagonal line over a nice ascending oxer--even a little one will help him translate the feeling of the way he did the gymnastic to a single fence. Making it an oxer rather than a vertical also will help him come to it from a more forward, pushing stride.

He's cure, he's green. I'd see what you can do before throwing in the towel.

[RegentLion]

Honestly, I think you need a new trainer! That horse should not be jumping as high as some of those jumps are. He shouldn't be doing anything over 2ft until he gets better balance and learns his distances. I think part of the problem is that he is on his forehand. If you got him working consistently off his haunches, I bet he would start jumping better. However, I still think you need a new trainer because I'm no where near being able to be a trainer, and I can plainly see this horse is too green for the jump height. Plus didn't you say you where traveling 3 hours to get to him? This is a horse that you need to have weekly lessons with so that you can really progress. Find a good trainer in your area. Don't limit your self to jump eventing trainers though. My trainer is mainly H/J(but did some eventing), but she is still a fantastic trainer.


Forestergirl, The trainer I'm working with is the best in the area. I am trailering 3 hours to get to him. I agree, we BOTH could benefit from more frequent instruction, but anything closer is either going to be Western Pleasure or with a H/J trainer that does not work with me or my program. :cool: She's the one that "started" this horse over fences. Just isn't an option. PM Me if you need more info...haha

So I'm basically stuck to struggling on my own. I'd like to do some clinics but feel there is a lot more "homework" that I could do.

As far as the fence height, I don't know how to address it. My husband observed that when the fences are low the horse doesn't try--but by the time they are large enough to get his attention then they are TOO large. That is perplexing to me... and honestly hubby is probably right on because he is very astute about these things. I did have a friend do him over a 2' crossrail this weekend and I think that I'll be doing a lot of lower fences for a while. He has a lot to learn over a smaller fence that is for sure.

[EiRide]

As far as the fence height, I don't know how to address it. My husband observed that when the fences are low the horse doesn't try--but by the time they are large enough to get his attention then they are TOO large.

Combinations. And you can make them looky--add a tiny flower box, bright colored towels draped over the rails, a little bit of tarp to make a mini-liverpool, that sort of thing. Cones. Upside down buckets.

[RegentLion]

He didn't adjust because he doesn't know HOW to adjust. He's too green. Horses don't just naturally know how to adjust and rock back and collect. It really shows how willing he is that he simply didn't slam on the brakes and refuse. It scares ME that your trainer told you to do this. You should NEVER EVER gallop your horse at a fence. That is how you get rotational falls, etc. People that are riding cross country gallop between the fences. Whenever they approach a jump you will always(or you should at least) see them collect their horse to prepare for the jump. Some jumps need more collection than others based on their difficultly, but no one ever gallops flat out at a fence unless they want to kill their horse or themselves.

A good trainer should have already be helping you teach you horse to rock back. Some horses already know how to do this more than others, but all need to learn it to a certain degree. Learning this is one of the basics of jumping, IMO. Trust me. you sure as hell don't want to be out on a cross country course with a horse that can't rock back and adjust. :eek:


Trust me, my biggest fear is a rotational sooo....

The trainer has talked a lot about the horse needing to rock back and jump. EVERYTHING we do in lessons is geared toward that, starting with the dressage and warmup. We have a long way to go. I mean, this horse was a Western Pleasure horse 6 months ago! I think that the "gallop" fence may not have been at a gallop... my brain needs re-calibrating, I've been doing I things in slo mo WP for three years now. Anyway, I think the trainer had been seeing the horse rock back and jump and wanted to do a single and then everything went to hell in a handbasket. I expect the trainer expected to see the horse sit back and adjust... and he just didn't. :no:

I completely agree that the horse is green and has more learning to do. That is OK with me. THe question is: how MUCH of this can be taught to a horse? How reliably can it be learnt?

[RegentLion]

In order for him to rock back he needs to already know how to carry his weight on his hind end, if he knows this it will make it easier for him to understand what to do. (I am probably explaining it poorly but it makes sense in my head!) If he was already on his hind end and working through his back, he wouldn't need to rock back so much either. Perhaps you should sit and drive him to the fences instead of leaning forward in a half seat/two point? It would shift his weight which might make things easier.

Also, have you tried doing gymnastics over fences? It would definitely help him to rock his weight back and also snap up his front end. It would also help his timing as well as his striding. Gymnastics has done both me and my horse wonders, I would really recommend practicing if you haven't.

I think your horse could easily do lower level eventing. With a little more training he would be a wonderful partner.


Yes we have done a few gymnastics. More are definitely in order!

And yes you were very clear about how his balance being on his forehand negatively affects his jumping, and if it can get on his hind end it will positively affect his jumping. He's learning... he's conformationally impaired (haha) in that regard and since he's done WP up until now he's learning that balance is something that needs to be different now.

[RegentLion]

I can see from the pics that he CAN get his knees out of the way, at least horizontal. But he isnt in many pictures. He is green over fences, yes? Thats one reason. And also you are ahead of him in almost every picture and when youre not, you are likely doing too much with your upper body which is throwing off his balance and he drops his front end when you do that. He doesnt have the experience or the muscle yet to power through rider errors like that. My young horse is like that, he would rather I ride his back over the fence than throw myself on his neck. The horse is jumping too high for his level, and IMO so are you. Stick to lower fences and grid work to sharpen his skills, AND yours. Your position over fences needs many bounces. Wait, and slow down your upper body. And yes, sit to the fences, riding to the fence in 2pt will only throw more weight on his front end and make it even harder for him to get his legs up.

Also, better dressage will only make a better jumper. The more work from the hind end you do, shoulder in and counter canter, lengthening and shortening, will immensely help his abilities over fences.

Bob he's very green. VERY green. Just started this spring over fences, as a second career from doing WP and HUS classes at the breed show level.

I've spent the last 3 years learning to ride the WP and HUS. Now I'm started up jumping again, and to be very honest feel shaky when jumping a lot of the time. I am confused as to if I should sit and then jump (which gives a better feel) or if I should two point and "stay out of his way." And (this is not blaming the horse) when he's jumping weirdly I end up doing weird things as well. Its an akward situation for both of us. I feel better sitting but then sometimes I'm told that I'm doing too much for him (telling him too much) and he needs to "figure it out on his own."

I used to be a pretty good jumper rider but I clearly need a refresher! :lol:

[RegentLion]

Can you trailer to some clinics or camps taught by top notch trainers? I think you will get some ideas of what you need to work on to get the both of you eventing safely. Perhaps you can get a group of riders together and your local eventing association can bring in someone top notch to teach for a few days.

Clinics are a great idea and I'd like to do some in the spring after I've had more time to do the homework (GET HIM ON HIS BUTT!).

Now that I think about it there is a good dressage rider also 3 hours away that I might get some lessons from.

Oh, and my "local eventing association" consists of me, myself, and I. Not kidding. :lol:

[RegentLion]

I'm wondering how far deltawave's trainer is from the OP, because I feel like there are some big holes in horse and rider's training. Even if the lessons aren't weekly, there are ways to make a much bigger improvement.

My impression of the horse is that he just doesn't quite know what to do with himself, yet. I feel like if he knew how to really rock back and push, he'd get his little landing gear out of the way and make some progress. But in a lot of the pictures, I feel like he's arriving at the fences too low in the front and sprawled out. More flatwork, more gymnastics (better gymnastics?? Those gymnastic lines look disorganized and mind blowing to me), and more teaching him to step up under himself and PUSH off at the fence.

We have a very cute but very unathletic little horse here (he's a kid's starter horse, so our biggest priority was sainthood, not jumping ability). When I jump him, I have to WORK to get him rocked back on his haunches, marching strongly forward and to the base. When I ride him like that, he feels great and jumps great. If I let him canter in his natural frame (a little sprawly, a little low, and a little dead) he barely jumps and can be mildly terrifying. Your guy isn't nearly as bad as this one we have is, but I think he could benefit from the same type of ride- up, butt underneath, MARCHING forward to the bottom of his fences.

I'd also suggest, for the time being, of pulling the boots off. It is amazing how much incentive in getting their legs up jumping nekkid can give a lazy legged horse. ;)

I really, really like him. He's cute as a button, looks to have a great brain in his head, and WANTS to try hard. I think he looks pretty scopey in the pictures...though, video would be better to tell what he really looks like.

I will make a video ... if everyone promises not to say "ANNA YOU SUCK GO HOME!" :lol: No seriously, that is a great idea. And since hubby got a brand new video camera... it is possible!

I think DW's trainer would be downstate somewhere and that is probably 7 hours from me. I'm up between the international bridge to Canada and the Mighty Mac.

The horse definitely doesn't know what to do with himself yet. I wonder if he'll like jumping more when he realizes how to do it right. I hope so. I hope he can learn to do it right. He's pretty athletic on the flat and if the fence is looky at all (in one of my first lessons we jumped a black log on the ground and he apparently thought it was terrifying and lept over it with amazing amazing scope).

I gaurantee the horse is arriving at the fences low in front and sprawled out. This is his second career and his first one was OK with low up front (HUS/WP). However, he has improved from our first lesson. Just needs to get better.

Would you mind explaining to me what is mind blowing about the gymanstics I was doing? I felt they were straight forward but really want to understand what you are seeing. We were doing basically just a 3 stride line, or a 3 to a 3 or a one stride with a placing pole. I'm truly not disagreeing with you, just want to understand.

I'm also struggling with the whole "how MUCH" do I do on the way to a fence. How much do I tell the horse where to take off? Obviously I need to create quality within the gait up to the fence. That is a struggle for me. I'm trying though... and will continue to try.

Um..what else.. OH his boots are open fronts. Do you think I should take them off too?

[RegentLion]

Flat work.
Then some more flat work.
Then, did I mention flat work?

I would do a lot of helping this horse get off his forehand--square turns at the walk and trot, for instance. Halt and rein back and trot or canter off. Gobs of schooling figures. Any feeling that he is hanging or just sort of plonking along on his nose, shake it up with a transition, a turn, trot poles, and brisk hand gallop, whatever.

As to what I would work on over fences--lots of trot poles, little cross rails and small verticals, gymnastic lines kept small in height but that required him to do several things. Landing side balancing poles as well as take off placing poles can also help a lot.

I like trot poles into a cross rail, one stride, bounce, one stride or two stride (start with one element and slowly add in the others).

A grid is also nice, once he is getting the hang of the one and two strides mixed up with the odd bounce. I would start with a bounce, then add in a third element for a double bounce. Once he is OK with that, stick in a fourth fence for a triple bounce. You get the idea. :-)

Once he is coming down a gymnastic line a little more confidently, I like to do a four element line on the long diagonal, then come around the short end and go back across a short diagonal line over a nice ascending oxer--even a little one will help him translate the feeling of the way he did the gymnastic to a single fence. Making it an oxer rather than a vertical also will help him come to it from a more forward, pushing stride.

He's cure, he's green. I'd see what you can do before throwing in the towel.

I was wondering...do you think he could benefit from some flat work? :lol:

No, really, I agree. Thank you for your suggestions for gymanstics and exercises. I will be using them this fall. :)

[Elliot]

I wanted to respond to this because I too rode a not-very-athletic event horse for many years. I had a few different well-respected trainers tell me to give up on him, but I loved him, and I make up for my lack of talent with a lot of determination. I also had a trainer who did believe in us, and that gave me the confidence to keep trying.

To make a long story short, that horse did a ton of preliminary and ended up placing very well at a one-star. I did eventually decide to sell him, because I didn't feel we could go intermediate together.

Dressage really did improve our jumping tremendously. So did gymnastics, but they weren't two-foot gymnastics. He was lazy always, so if the jumps were too small, he just wasn't going to jump them well. Low wide oxers and really tall cross-rails may help. Set your cross rails so the high end is near the top of the standard. They don't have to be big in the middle, just high on the sides.

My horse was always better cross-country. He respected those jumps! We were going to have a rail down if I got him too close to the jump, so I learned to find a slightly longer distance on him. It worked, most of the time.

You can certainly go training on that horse if that's your desire.

However, in retrospect, there are some downsides to riding the so-so athlete. I learned to be a better rider in some ways, but I also got really frustrated when things weren't going well. To event, you're going to put in a ton of hard work, no matter what you're sitting on. Everything is so much easier for my new horse, and he loves his job. Would I do the years over again with the previous horse? Probably, because I loved him. Am I happier riding a horse that finds the job easy? Yes!

[yellowbritches]

Would you mind explaining to me what is mind blowing about the gymanstics I was doing? I felt they were straight forward but really want to understand what you are seeing. We were doing basically just a 3 stride line, or a 3 to a 3 or a one stride with a placing pole. I'm truly not disagreeing with you, just want to understand.
By "mind blowing" I just think it is a lot to ask to use a little wall/filler type thing for a very green horse in a gymnastic. Gymanastics can be pretty mind blowing just with rails, so I can see how a very green horse might be REALLY going :eek: if they have to jump a little brick wall instead of a nice inviting X or vertical into a busy line. I might do something like that for a very bold horse who's been jumping for awhile, but typically I would only build grids with rails.

I also don't consider a 3 stride line a gymnastic but, well, a three stride line. Now, if you built a 3 stride line with placing poles at every stride, then we'd be talking. A gymnastic to ME is usually a grid of 2, 3 or 4 or more simple jumps (cross rails, verticals, simple, straight forward oxers), that are set on very specific distances and may or may not in cooperate a lot of placing poles to really help the horse get there right. A typical, simple gymnastic that we often set up here is a 9ft placing pole to a cross rail, to 18ft, to 19ft, to 32 ft. Something of that nature. There have been lots and lots of discussions, both here and over on the h/j forum, about gymnastics and what everyone's favorite ones are or what ones solve what issues. Do some digging around, and you'll get a much better idea of what most would consider a gymnastic. Also, get Jimmy Wofford's book on gymnastics...pretty much considered required reading for any and all event riders. Very good, and very educational. :yes:

[yellowbritches]

This is a GREAT video with a very basic gymnastic-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dqAk9nKlxc

[yellowbritches]

Here's another great gymnastic...this one's a little more complicated- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwi5QYIxCeE

[RegentLion]

By "mind blowing" I just think it is a lot to ask to use a little wall/filler type thing for a very green horse in a gymnastic. Gymanastics can be pretty mind blowing just with rails, so I can see how a very green horse might be REALLY going :eek: if they have to jump a little brick wall instead of a nice inviting X or vertical into a busy line. I might do something like that for a very bold horse who's been jumping for awhile, but typically I would only build grids with rails.

I also don't consider a 3 stride line a gymnastic but, well, a three stride line. Now, if you built a 3 stride line with placing poles at every stride, then we'd be talking. A gymnastic to ME is usually a grid of 2, 3 or 4 or more simple jumps (cross rails, verticals, simple, straight forward oxers), that are set on very specific distances and may or may not in cooperate a lot of placing poles to really help the horse get there right. A typical, simple gymnastic that we often set up here is a 9ft placing pole to a cross rail, to 18ft, to 19ft, to 32 ft. Something of that nature. There have been lots and lots of discussions, both here and over on the h/j forum, about gymnastics and what everyone's favorite ones are or what ones solve what issues. Do some digging around, and you'll get a much better idea of what most would consider a gymnastic. Also, get Jimmy Wofford's book on gymnastics...pretty much considered required reading for any and all event riders. Very good, and very educational. :yes:


Yellowbritches, thank you for your insight!

I can see where you are coming from with the wall issue. I wonder how my horse would have been over crossrails/poles only... but if I had to guess I don't think he'd care. He truly doesn't care about much and actually jumps better over "solid" looking obstacles. He is green for jumping but not green for riding and doesn't go :eek: at much of anything at all. In fact, if a fence looks too fragile or airy he's liable to just tap it down. :no: At one time at home I draped a "spooky" cooler over a fence he was being lazy over (just a small jump) and it didn't make a difference. So there you have it. :sigh:

I will keep this in mind however, when building my own gymnastics. I'm off now to watch the youtube videos you linked. Thank you for doing that for me. Can I buy the Wofford book online somewhere, like Amazon?

[Meredith Clark]

I had a QH gelding that sort of reminds me of your guy. He was found in a field as a barely broke 7 year old. He was a reining horse and with a trainer I slowly taught him to jump. He never seemed to really like it, especially not cross country.

Our biggest problem was our balance, he would get so heavy on his fore-hand it was a mess! I wasn't a strong enough rider nor did I have a trainer with enough dressage knowledge to help us.

woody (http://pets.webshots.com/photo/1327952059068747398bJrlbh)

more hanging legs (http://pets.webshots.com/photo/1327952108068747398RVEnpH)

eventually I found an eventing trainer with a lot of dressage background that really helped me ride him better. He never truly LOVED jumping (and really sort of hated x-country) so I did sell him, but his jumping really did improve and if he had liked it enough I would have kept him

improved jumping (http://pets.webshots.com/photo/1327952123068747398MQkGAR)

[Meredith Clark]

This is a GREAT video with a very basic gymnastic-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dqAk9nKlxc

I like this! I've been wanting to set up a little gymnastic for my green OTTB who's having some issues with distance and I'm having some issues with our timing (he's unsure so I get too far ahead or left behind)

she said

ground pole ____9ft____ X ____18ft____ Vert _____21ft ____ oxer

right?

I'm really bad at striding is that for an average horse? and does that include space for landing and take off?

[EiRide]

I wonder how my horse would have been over crossrails/poles only... but if I had to guess I don't think he'd care. He truly doesn't care about much and actually jumps better over "solid" looking obstacles.

A cross rail set up quite high so that there is a steep line to the X will help create a tighter front end jump since it is narrower at the center. Making a V with guide poles onto a vertical can have the same effect, sharpening up the jump without making it too high.

I have a number of overachievers when it comes to fences, and then there is my Cleveland Bay cross mare, who does just what she needs and no more. When she was very green we had a lot of challenges making it hard enough to improve her jumping without over-facing her, which is where many of my ideas come from. If he is behind the leg a little, I always recommend a hand gallop, hard halt, rein back, gallop out of the rein back. Boy, that sharpened up my girl like nobodies business.

[lovehors86]

I personally think he would make a lovely lower level horse, with work maybe even a bit higher but he won't have the fire to make it around XC more than likely... If you would like something to try with him there is an exercise I put all my green horses and green riders through to help them get a bit more adjustable without scaring anyone...

I set up three canter poles on the ground and start off with them at a normal distance (you can do it on the lunge too if you want him to get practice). Slowly move the poles a bit closer and a bit farther apart so he HAS to adjust his stride to get through them... eventually I make the middle pole a small jump and one of my students always goes back to this exercise whenever she is moving her horse up in height it makes that big of a difference in her horse's jump. It seems to me it would also help you stay with him while he's learning the in-over-out portion of jumping.

Otherwise I see you're only jumping poles and airy things I would want to see how he jumps something a bit more solid as my little TB jumped stadium like frog/deer hybrid for a long time while we worked on his form but if you took him XC he was beautiful...

[Bobthehorse]

I personally think he would make a lovely lower level horse, with work maybe even a bit higher but he won't have the fire to make it around XC more than likely...


Youd be surprised how fiery they get as they get fitter. I always thought my QH wouldnt have the go for Prelim, and he is way less TBy than this guy looks, but as he got fit enough for it, he sure got hot and spooky as well! Made the time first time out.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I like this! I've been wanting to set up a little gymnastic for my green OTTB who's having some issues with distance and I'm having some issues with our timing (he's unsure so I get too far ahead or left behind)

she said

ground pole ____9ft____ X ____18ft____ Vert _____21ft ____ oxer

right?

I'm really bad at striding is that for an average horse? and does that include space for landing and take off?


yes that is a very standard gymnastic that I start with for green beans. Trotting in. You need to introduce the elements slowly. So start with a 9ft placing pole to just a pole where your X is...then add the X...then add a pole at 18 feet were your vert. would be...then make it a vert...etc. You can also add poles in the middle if needed.

When they get more experienced...I often shorten up the 21 ft element to closer to 19 ft.



As to the OPs horse....my only concern with him is he is NOT a naturally good jumper. Sorry to be a downer (because I do like his look)...but most average jumping horses do not need to be taught to rock back to jump 2'6" in acceptable form. I've had more than one western QH who we coverted to jumping (one was supposed to be a cow horse but had NO cow sense). They were both much better jumpers naturally than your boy....so this isn't a breed bias talking...I love QHs and think they usually have fantastic brains. But for a novice rider like yourself.....he is really going to be a project. I have NO doubt you can improve him with proper work....but it will take a lot of work. And in a sport where we are jumping solid jumps....I want a horse that can save my a$$ on xc (and jump clear in stadium) not one that I have to help. So I want them to show a bit better natural jumping ability from the start....that isn't to say they need to crank their knees to their eyeballs (although it is nice if they do)...but they need to show me that they have some natural feel for jumping....more than what I'm seeing in these pictures (we all have bad shots...but)

I think he will improve some as his balance get's better but he will likely always be one that will jump poorly if you don't have him in the right balance or if you jump ahead on him and throw his balance even more off. So if you do want to continue with him....just know that you do have a bit of work cut out just to make him a nice low level horse. As opposed to the many many many other horses out there to whom jumping and the balance for jumping comes more easily...and the low levels are something they can do almost right out of the box. But he is a good looking boy...and if you love him and want to work with him....then keep at it and do the homework that will make him a better jumper (LOTS and LOTS of low bounces and other gymnastics and a lot of flat work if he was mine....)

[pony grandma]

Also, better dressage will only make a better jumper. The more work from the hind end you do, shoulder in and counter canter, lengthening and shortening, will immensely help his abilities over fences.

Flat work.
Then some more flat work.
Then, did I mention flat work?

I would do a lot of helping this horse get off his forehand--square turns at the walk and trot, for instance. Halt and rein back and trot or canter off. Gobs of schooling figures. Any feeling that he is hanging or just sort of plonking along on his nose, shake it up with a transition, a turn, trot poles, and brisk hand gallop, whatever.

Excellent advise. Don't forget to ride some spiral circles, this will really help build up the back end and the inside hind leg. Be careful not to make him sore, build it up gradually.

Good post for info for everyone learning! and trying to help their horse.

[Jleegriffith]

I have no idea if this will be helpful but I am going to post some boring lesson videos (well boring to watch) with exercises we do for the young horses to really get them to jump up. This is the same horse throughout and you can see the progress. The focus is always on the canter getting them rocking back and loading the hind end and not helping them. As much as we want to help our job is to create the balance and then leave them alone to make their own mistakes. This horse went from a real dud starting out to quite a nice jumper and actually sold to the hunter world because of his nice jump so it can be done but it takes a lot of work on that canter! Dressage will always be the most important and for me I like to think about jumping as dressage between fences. You should have a similar canter and similar balance in order to create that really nice rock back step where they can get their knees up in front. I am very far from perfect but it sure does make me look better when the horse is jumping better!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGHf_ScDmiU Sept 08. He was still very green if I remember he started to jump in July. He was super lazy and on the forehand. Instructor is a h/j rider but was very much having me get him rocking back. You will hear her say agitate meaning bump him up off the bridle using leg/spur and a cluck. Get him there in the right balance and then let go to really let him jump up to me. We were using the jump off the turn which is an excellent exercise to use to keep the balance. It is all about pushing the outside hind leg under and the turn helps keep the balance up instead of a long straight line where they get flat. We also used many rollback turns to keep him coming under with the hind legs and having me really push the hind end under. In the end we finished with a one stride line really working on trying to get him to rock back and fire up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWI4ujgCgZI Nov with Boyd Martin. You can see he still isn't jumping really round but has a bit more forward energy and has a bit more uphill balance.

http://www.vimeo.com/2607548 Dec 08 all about slow and uphill. Keeping the package and not shoving him at the fences..not that I would be guilty of that:lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loruTQ_LSr4 Feb 09 you will see we start out really rusty..it was winter;) About min 4 she is really on me about that "rock back" step and you can see so clearly how that applies to getting them balanced up. Without that rock back step and reset of balance I wasn't seeing s**t for distances. When I got the correct balance it was all right there.

http://www.vimeo.com/3550607 March 2009- totally different horse in terms of his jumping. He had learned to rock back and his front end was now fantastic as well as a really nice kick behind. I was no longer having to work so hard to lift him out and keep him balanced and could transition from a full seat to a lighter seat because I didn't have to be there every SINGLE step. The single was 3'6" and not sure how big the rest are but it didn't really matter at that point because with the right canter I felt like he could jump any height.

While grids are important it is all about how you ride to them. You don't want to go fast because the point is to create that "pause" step where they do rock back and get the front end up and hind end under. If you go quick then will stay on the forehand. I like to think in terms of creating a package and then when I get to the base I soften and let the horse jump up. It may take a long time for them to get it but most of them do.

[sch1star]

Has anyone mentioned saddle yet? The shots with your pad six inches up in the air behind say to me your saddle may not be the best fit or may not be placed optimally. It's no panacea but a saddle making the horse uncomfortable moving will absolutely affect his form.

I see a nice horse and a rider with a pretty good base of support not giving herself very much credit. If you haven't jumped in awhile you need to give yourself time to get your feel back. The combination of green horse and maybe a little bit rusty rider will make for the odd, awkward moments. What I like a lot is that from the pix it doesn't appear your horse holds any of his mistakes or yours against you.

That's a horse to consider keeping, and worrying about scope over 3' is probably a ways off anyhow. So I say stick with the work if you can enjoy the process. I can't tell the difference between you beating yourself up and the impact of being beat up by the trainer, but I'd say see if you can find a happier place in yourself or happier people you can have fun with in this process. If it's all intense drive for results all the time, you reduce the chances for happy horse and rider in the end.

And now, if I could just be sure to take my own advice! :D

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Yeah...but Jlee....your horse looks like a decent jumper from the get go to me. Just green initially. Maybe the pictures make the OPs horse look worse than he is (and pictures can do that)....but the horse in the videos is one that I like as a nice prospect. Sure he takes some not picture perfect fences (they all will)...but the raw material is there and it looks like he has a great brain. From your first video he looks like a fun one to bring along....and one that may go prelim or beyond. Was he off the track?

Not saying the OP should give up on her horse....but the horse you posted is more the type for jumping. He does have some natural ability and with correct work you made him reach the potential that was there. Not all horses have that....but most, including the OPs can be fine for the lower levels. It is just that the ones with the bit of natural ability will just be plain easier to bring along (assuming they do have a good mind too).

[Jleegriffith]

I can only see what is on the website..darn work blocking facebook. I don't see anything alarming there besides a horse that jumps over his knees but looks safe enough to me. He just looks on the forehand if I had to say anything about him but you can't tell without a video.

I say show us a video. I hate watching videos of myself but I mainly make them to follow the training of the horses. It can give a lot of insight into where the problem are and what needs to be done to fix them.

Still shots are just a snapshot of time and I delete most of my bad one's no point in making myself worry but looking at them:lol: My main horse right now takes a lot of photos that look like this- http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2545/3893385317_55fb10a4b5.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3506/3894199138_c7f62ef73e.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2527/3893447209_ca66f8a9ec.jpg

When I look at them I get a bit freaked out..holy hanging legs what the heck is the deal. The video tells it all when I watch because he is good coming to the jump but then gets slower and behind the leg and looks and then jumps icky. Bigger jumps ridden more more uphill with more of an engine but not faster look like this http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3427/3894175862_ef4c08e960.jpg

I guess what I am trying to say is what does your gut tell you? What are your goals? You have a trainer so you are getting help which is great and what does the trainer say? Set a timeline for him that you are going to work really hard and he doesn't improve then he will just stay novice and below. I have so many horses that start out jumping really ugly almost scary ugly. I agree with BFEN that the horse in my video had some natural talent but he just didn't care whether he knocked down everything or not. His front end was all over and creating the packaged canter was quite difficult. Flatwork can work wonders in getting a downhill horse more uphill and then the jumping improves.

I guess my other advice would be that if you have a dressage instructor locally that could also help in getting the flatwork more in gear for the jumping.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Jlee...I agree with you. Video would give a better indication than still photos. Still photos can always make both a horse and Rider look like crap.


I was just basing my opinion on what the OP posted...and my own experience with some western horses. If she likes the horse....and is having fun with him....I wouldn't say she is crazy to keep trying to make him better and he will most likely get better. My point was that it is just an easier project to make an event horse to start with a horse like the one you posted......

[Jleegriffith]

I agree having worked with a lot of former western horses some of them transition super easily while others will always struggle to get off the forehand and rock back. A lot of it has to due with basic conformation which is why it is always so important to start with good conformation it at least gives you a shot at having a horse that will jump well. I would love to watch some video of him but I understand the reservations about sharing it;)

The chestnut I posted pics of has a good conformation and excellent flatwork but is just green over fences and needs to learn. The pieces are all there they just need to get put together so when you know that it makes it worth the time invested. My video of him is quite ugly mainly because I need to learn how to ride him but I recognize that and think I am on the road to getting it worked out. He lacked confidence over fences but now he is jumping everything just way to slowly!

It is always so interesting to me having this steady supply of green horses and seeing how they jump. Some have the worst conformation yet jump amazing while others are put together quite well yet they are awful over fences. Some start out jumping so horrible I want to hide them away so nobody can see but 6 months later they are pretty darn nice to watch. It sure does keep riding interesting.

BTW- I think your form looks very solid especially riding a green horse. Good job!

[katerenee]

Jleegriffith- your videos are great!

[Jleegriffith]

Thank you- I am make my fair share of mistakes and generally hate watching myself on video but it is always so interesting to go back and look at where a horse first started. I tend to use the same exercises on all my greenies if possible. It can really show how horses can improve over time with the right development work. Most of mine are ottb's and they are just so weak when they start so the flatwork really has to bridge to the jumping. It can take it a while to come together so you just keep breaking it into small pieces.

An instructor with a really good eye for what you need to be working on can help. I take each horse and find the weakness and then come up with a set of exercises to help them improve.

Jimmy Wofford's book is great, 101 jumping exercises and so many others. The 9ft, 18ft to 21ft is a really standard but useful exercise if ridden correctly.

[mjedge808]

I would really work on the gymnastics to see if it shapes up his legs dragging across the fences. he doesn't seem to be one to snap up his knees and I would be very concerned doing XC on a horse like that: one front leg caught on a fence can equal serious damage to you and him.

Please be careful.

He is very cute and some of the photos would make me believe he'd do fairly well in the dressage phase.

[Gry2Yng]

Yeah...but Jlee....your horse looks like a decent jumper from the get go to me. Just green initially. Maybe the pictures make the OPs horse look worse than he is (and pictures can do that)....but the horse in the videos is one that I like as a nice prospect. Sure he takes some not picture perfect fences (they all will)...but the raw material is there and it looks like he has a great brain. From your first video he looks like a fun one to bring along....and one that may go prelim or beyond. Was he off the track?

Not saying the OP should give up on her horse....but the horse you posted is more the type for jumping. He does have some natural ability and with correct work you made him reach the potential that was there. Not all horses have that....but most, including the OPs can be fine for the lower levels. It is just that the ones with the bit of natural ability will just be plain easier to bring along (assuming they do have a good mind too).


This was my reaction as well. jlg's horse is BUILT uphill and even tho he doesn't jump square or jerk his knees initially, he NEVER rolls over his shoulder. Pictures can be deceiving of course and I only watched less than 2" of your video, but (sorry OP) I would take on your horse but not the OP's. That is not to say that the OP's horse won't turn into something nice, just that the raw material is vastly different.
ETA: Watched a bit of the last schooling video. He really turned out nice. Good upfront and great behind. I am sure he is making someone very happy as a show hunter. Photos of the chestnut would worry me too. I had a chestnut like that as well. And as you say, you have to go with how the horse feels. He was very hard on himself and always overjumped rather than use his front end efficiently.

[RegentLion]

I am not going to do the quote & reply thing this time because we are on the road to look at an event prospect :D. Hubby is driving...

Anyway, I do want to thank everyone for their advice. I think that it is mostly spot on and pretty much in line with what I'm thinking--that he might be capable of doing BN and N but maybe not T and regardless of what level I want to go he will take a lot of work. That is also what my trainer said.

My trainer is great to me, sch1star mentioned that I'm not giving myself credit and alluded to the fact that my trainer might be "beating me up." My trainer isn't beating me up emotionally at all! I'm just really self depreciating! :lol: I try to stay with him and not impeade his jump but sometimes he's akward and I can't lie--sometimes I'm akward too! How on earth do you spell "akward?"

Anyway, there are also some definite saddle fit issues that need to be addressed. Kind of hard here as there are no tack stores or saddle fitters. I'd have to haul somewhere (not a problem) or do a lot of test ride saddles. My horsie does have a chiropractor who may or may not know much about saddle fit--she said this one isn't "too bad" but it isn't great either. That said I know she's great at being a chiropractor but she may not be great at saddle fitting.

Some of you have mentioned on Tuff's conformation-- He's built downhill with a slightly long back among other things.

I recommend those of you that are on COTH at work do check out my FB albums when you're at home. That is where some of the "uglier" pictures are posted. I'm also planning to get a video sometime soon that I will post so we can have a more comprehensive tool to evaluate this horse.

In my ideal world... I'd keep this horse and work with him and if we got to do a BN event, GREAT! :D Meantime I'd get a horse that is more bred/built/desiring to jump and work with him or her and that horse could do my N and my maybe, someday, Training. Basically, Training is like my "olympics." Top of the line :lol:

It also looks like I'll be keeping him for at least the time being. The person interested in him is still interested in him but she feels that I'm not really deep down ready to sell and she doesn't want it to come between us. Soooo that is a good thing. Takes some pressure off me.

One thing I know about this horse is that he prefers to do things "the easy way." So if he can learn to jump RIGHT and if it feels easier to him, that is the way he will do it. Period. He's 7 now and was broke at 2 (lightly) and so he's basically had 5 years of doing WP and HUS stuff and there are some things he just does because it is "easier." And things that he struggles with when he's unfit (like haunches in at the lope) get easy when he's fit and he's really willing to offer them when it feels easy to him.

And thanks to you guys who seem to understand that I'm rusty in my riding. I remember being one of the "big fish" at my old barn when I was doing my PC ratings and now it is kind of sucky to realize I'm back at the bottom of the pond! :lol: Trying to get better though. Looking at some of my photos I think I may need to shorten my stirrups!!!

Now I'm just really excited to see this horse this weekend... my perspective may change drastically. :yes:

[RegentLion]

This was my reaction as well. jlg's horse is BUILT uphill and even tho he doesn't jump square or jerk his knees initially, he NEVER rolls over his shoulder. Pictures can be deceiving of course and I only watched less than 2" of your video, but (sorry OP) I would take on your horse but not the OP's. That is not to say that the OP's horse won't turn into something nice, just that the raw material is vastly different.


Gry2Yng you don't need to apologize. I know what my horse is and what he isn't... the grey area is that I'm trying to sort out if he can do the little stuff (BN) with work...safely.

He was bought as a WP/HUS horse and in that he excells. I just got bored. So no hard feelings at all as I realize that while my horse is athletic in his own way that doesn't necessarily mean he's athletic in the eventing way.

[RegentLion]

CONFO PHOTOS:

http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs090.snc1/5096_577828964367_40600898_34077990_146737_n.jpg

http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs090.snc1/5096_577828969357_40600898_34077991_7810464_n.jpg

http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v262/71/96/40600898/n40600898_32881742_3968.jpg

http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2071/71/96/40600898/n40600898_33546356_2677.jpg

[Jleegriffith]

I did go and look at the facebook photos and what I see is that he is basically not capable of getting that front end up in any type of deep distance. The best photos are the ones where you were slightly long or hitting the gap which of course would be easier. Furthermore, he hits things and then doesn't seem to learn which is one thing I don't like in a horse. He totally clobbers a few of them (I couldn't tell that from the website) and then comes back and does it again. That doesn't bear well even in a BN horse. You know everyone jokes that any horse can do BN but riders make mistakes and what if you did get in really super deep to a spread jump with him. He just doesn't seem to care enough which alarms me.

From his confo shots he has a very heavy front end and is built downhill. If you really want to pursue eventing I am betting you are going to have a ton more fun on something that is built a bit lighter and more balanced. He looks so kind and willing but he may also be happier doing something else.

[Gry2Yng]

Gry2Yng you don't need to apologize. I know what my horse is and what he isn't... the grey area is that I'm trying to sort out if he can do the little stuff (BN) with work...safely.

He was bought as a WP/HUS horse and in that he excells. I just got bored. So no hard feelings at all as I realize that while my horse is athletic in his own way that doesn't necessarily mean he's athletic in the eventing way.

Thanks. You are doing an excellent job of being honest with yourself about your horse. That is a real accomplishment. Not many can do it. I wish you the best of luck. He seems like a good guy, but I have seen many struggle with a horse that is inappropriate or not interested in the job. When they get a horse that finds joy in jumping xc, it is like the sun came up for the first time in their world. Every one should have that IMHO. We (an our horses) have talents and things that we enjoy. We don't always enjoy what we are good at, not are we always good at what we enjoy. Constant battle.

[jumpsnake]

I agree with many of the comments on here.
I would like to add that you should be terrifically proud of yourself for your position in that pic of him with the pole between his legs. You are doing the exact right thing- made me think of that series of photos of Phillip Dutton in PH!

[RegentLion]

Thanks. You are doing an excellent job of being honest with yourself about your horse. That is a real accomplishment. Not many can do it. I wish you the best of luck. He seems like a good guy, but I have seen many struggle with a horse that is inappropriate or not interested in the job. When they get a horse that finds joy in jumping xc, it is like the sun came up for the first time in their world. Every one should have that IMHO. We (an our horses) have talents and things that we enjoy. We don't always enjoy what we are good at, not are we always good at what we enjoy. Constant battle.

You're right... the feeling of riding a horse who LOVES to jump is far greater than the feeling of riding one who is doing it just "because." This guy is like that. He tries to do right and he's just basically going along with it. Although I don't know how much he CAN like it not really knowing what he is doing.

I've had the "OMG I LOVE TO JUMP" types of horses before. The pony that got my C3 with me is still standing in my barn--retired. I've had a few others too and they're great fun. The problem is that some of them are too "hot" for my tastes.

Yeah I'm trying to have my cake and eat it too! I want a calm, quiet horse that is down with the whole jumping thing. So I thought I'd try the big guy that is the subject of this thread... since he's got the mind that I like. Quiet and unflappable. Now I just need a little more pizzaz and I'd be thrilled. There HAS to be one out there... :sadsmile:

I figure that as my horse's owner, rider, and advocate, it is my job to be honest about my horse and his abilities... and not push him beyond what he's capable and comfortable doing. Sometimes it is hard when you realize what you want isn't jiving with reality but that is horses for you! :lol:

This thread has been immensely helpful for me to sort through my feelings and emotions as well as really look through the glasses of reality.... not just looking at my guy with love in my eyes!

[RegentLion]

I agree with many of the comments on here.
I would like to add that you should be terrifically proud of yourself for your position in that pic of him with the pole between his legs. You are doing the exact right thing- made me think of that series of photos of Phillip Dutton in PH!

Thanks! That was one of those moments where I just was like "OMG SIT UP AND LEG ON" and that was what I did. In my guts I must have known that if I got in front of him he wouldn't be able to get up. I also have the (bad) habit of slipping my reins when in doubt and in this case it worked fine (even though I lost them). Sometimes instinct kicks in, even for me!