Performance of the US team in Burghley

[jumpfan]

What do you think about the performance of the US team in Burghley? P. Dutton, Bruce Davidson Jr and Amy Tryon were very good. But the others were poor performers.

The troublesome performance of Karen O`Connor and her wonderful and promising Mandiba (I love that horse) was very disappointing. They cantered slowly and had a run out at fence 6 (Discovery Valley). Then they approached at fence 8 at low speed and they nearly forgot to jump. Karen managed with all her routine to remain in the saddle. She balanced her weight smartly and escaped a fall at Fence 8 (trout hatchery complex). Similar to their hair-rising moments at fence 8 was the fall at fence 16 (dairy farm). They arrived with low speed and it seems, that Mandiba respectively Karen were not determined. The doom took its course. Mandiba landed on his forelegs top of the obstacle, slipped sideward and they part company.

My impression is that Mandiba was not very forceful, excepting when dashed away after dumping poor Karen.

Are there comments of Karen available what she thinks about her clumsy performance? She looked demoralized and her confidence is dented.

I am glad they are both ok.

[fernie fox]

For a start I dont think Becky holder and Couragious Comet put in Bad performance.

I thought she did a great job and pulled her horse at the right time,Good for her.

Havent seen ANY Amy tryon video of her cross country,so wont comment.[would like to see her ride if it is out there.???

[bean]

What did you expect to be different from Rolex, where some europeans came over on second string horses and Burghley where the good horses where being saved for the Europeans? Different setting, same outcome,the US did not produce good results. AND....AND....these grants were given to the "A" listed riders,the BEST in the US.
Still thinking of the comment made by Karen at the Olympics when she failed that test too, something along the lines of "what a great learning event for mandiba" and how good he was going to be for the WEG in two years time. If this is the best the US has, thank god the WEG is being held in the US!! At least the trailer ride is easier justified then the plane flight if these are the results we have to look forward to.

[CMCEventer]

At least in the case of Becky Holder and Allison Springer, it might be good to read their blogs about the event before talking too much about the scoreboard. I learned a lot from reading their thoughts on the day (especially from Allison Springer). Admittedly, the scoreboard didn't exactly end up as I'm sure our team had hoped - but I think it was a HUGE learning experience for horses and riders (at least in the case of Becky and Allison) - which will benefit them as team members with eyes on next year's WEG. In that sense, it was a success - even if it certainly could have been a bigger success if they'd been able to finish.

http://allisonspringer.com/live/


http://www.holdereventteam.com/News/C71692C6-9661-486B-9BDD-14391DA483EB.html

[saje]

I wouldn't presume to judge, never having ridden a 4* course, not intimately knowing the horses or their riders, or what their day-to-day lives have been like these past few weeks.

I will *never* fault a rider for pulling up a horse, though. That's never a fail, in my book.

Also, speed does not necessarily = preparation to jump.

[bean]

At least in the case of Becky Holder and Allison Springer, it might be good to read their blogs about the event before talking too much about the scoreboard. I learned a lot from reading their thoughts on the day (especially from Allison Springer). Admittedly, the scoreboard didn't exactly end up as I'm sure our team had hoped - but I think it was a HUGE learning experience for horses and riders (at least in the case of Becky and Allison) - which will benefit them as team members with eyes on next year's WEG. In that sense, it was a success - even if it certainly could have been a bigger success if they'd been able to finish.

http://allisonspringer.com/live/


http://www.holdereventteam.com/News/C71692C6-9661-486B-9BDD-14391DA483EB.html




aren't you sweet? The scoreboard doesn't matter and it was a success. Yes failure complete the event is a measure of success. Lets keep that same sentiment for next summer eh?

[Blugal]

This is not meant as an insult to any of the US team.

I noticed as I was watching the videos, the difference in the way many of the Europeans rode - they attacked the course, and when they chose a difficult line they KNEW their horse was on for it. (Of course there were some exceptions.) If you watch Phillip's video, you see that same confidence and aggressiveness.

The other thing I notice is perhaps a different model of event horse. Watching the horses go, you could see, for example, Paul Tapner attacking that course on Inonothing - but the horse was also so gung-ho that Paul was purposely sitting behind the motion at the beginning.

Then you read Alison's blog and her horse spooked at 2 jumps, causing their elimination. Now sure that horse did a great dressage. But it was weird to read her blog saying "he gallopped better" and "he was really scared" of the waterfall jump. I just have a hard time grasping the concept of a 4-Star horse who didn't already know how to gallop (or have an inherently good gallop), and one who would spook rather than attack. Strange.

[vineyridge]

What did you expect to be different from Rolex, where some europeans came over on second string horses and Burghley where the good horses where being saved for the Europeans? Different setting, same outcome,the US did not produce good results. AND....AND....these grants were given to the "A" listed riders,the BEST in the US.
Still thinking of the comment made by Karen at the Olympics when she failed that test too, something along the lines of "what a great learning event for mandiba" and how good he was going to be for the WEG in two years time. If this is the best the US has, thank god the WEG is being held in the US!! At least the trailer ride is easier justified then the plane flight if these are the results we have to look forward to.

Actually many of the best European horses and riders were being saved for the Euro championships this coming week. These were not the cream of the European cream.

I do think that the US needs something to make it more competitive, but I have no idea whether it's horses, riders, or training. I do know that American riders on American bred horses don't seem to be cutting modern day eventing at the top--except for PD. If I had to guess, I'd say it was the horses. We just don't have the bloodlines we need here. KOC is the only US rider who was riding a European purpose bred event horse, IIRC. And he is still very young. Well, I forgot Buck, and he is doing well with his Irish horses.

[bean]

Actually many of the best European horses and riders were being saved for the Euro championships this coming week. These were not the cream of the European cream.

I do think that the US needs something to make it more competitive, but I have no idea whether it's horses, riders, or training. I do know that American riders on American bred horses don't seem to be cutting modern day eventing at the top--except for PD. If I had to guess, I'd say it was the horses. We just don't have the bloodlines we need here. KOC is the only US rider who was riding a European purpose bred event horse, IIRC. And he is still very young. Well, I forgot Buck, and he is doing well with his Irish horses.


That is what I said...the best did not come for rolex OR burghley. The BEST of the US did go to both Rolx and Burghley and on both instances had their asses handed back to them.

[JER]

The other thing I notice is perhaps a different model of event horse. Watching the horses go, you could see, for example, Paul Tapner attacking that course on Inonothing - but the horse was also so gung-ho that Paul was purposely sitting behind the motion at the beginning.

I thought PT's ride was really nice. He rode through the DV so well, it looked simple and straightforward.

But for gung-ho, the stallion Leprince des Bois, really took the cake. Yikes.

Then you read Alison's blog and her horse spooked at 2 jumps, causing their elimination. Now sure that horse did a great dressage. But it was weird to read her blog saying "he gallopped better" and "he was really scared" of the waterfall jump. I just have a hard time grasping the concept of a 4-Star horse who didn't already know how to gallop (or have an inherently good gallop), and one who would spook rather than attack. Strange.

He also spooked at the ditch and the goose. I think this means he's spooky. Good thing to know for team selection -- if you know the horse is spooky, is it a good idea to put him on a team?

As for Mandiba, he's run one Advanced since Hong Kong and a couple of Intermediates and Prelims. If he was 'green' at CCI**** last year, I'm not sure why he'd be any less 'green' this year. Interesting that he got a grant for Burghley when he'd completed only one A and a CIC**. What about Fair Hill CCI*** for this horse? Or, if he really needs a trip to the UK, what about Blenheim CCI***?

Meanwhile, a local ridingschool/Pony Club instructor, Rosie Thomas, finished in 10th place and inside the time on XC, riding a self-produced, self-owned horse. :)

[bean]

It is bad enough that the high performance "team" feeds us this BS and now the riders are feeding it to us. Face the facts. The US has very few good combinations. Not just now, but for many years now. The WEG in Aachen, the Olympics, our own "four" star this spring, Burghley. Do we honestly think by magic we are going to produce world class results next summer? "It" is walking AND quacking like a duck, and has been for some time.

[JER]

Actually many of the best European horses and riders were being saved for the Euro championships this coming week. These were not the cream of the European cream.

:yes:

If I had to guess, I'd say it was the horses. We just don't have the bloodlines we need here. KOC is the only US rider who was riding a European purpose bred event horse, IIRC. And he is still very young. Well, I forgot Buck, and he is doing well with his Irish horses.

How are the US horses significantly different from the European horses -- the 2nd- and 3rd-stringers at that?

Arthur is by Brandenburg's Windstar who is Irish-bred and comes from a notable line of sport horses. The Good Witch is an Irish import as are Buck's horses. Truluck is by Maha Baba. Mandiba is by Master Imp, out of a High Hat mare. Critical Decision is by Consul (who evented as a young horse).

Leyland and Courageous Comet are OTT but aren't they from good sporthorse lines?

(Westwood Poser is by Master Imp and the same age as Mandiba. Somehow, Polly Stockton's gotten him to where he finished 2nd at Burghley.)

[Eventaholic]

I haven't see any of the footage yet :no: But I'm off of work and farm sitting in the boonies and my only plans are ride Moo and watch eventing (rerouted to the large screen TV!).

My only comments on Karen's ride are that she must be going through something horrible right now, emotionally. And even the best of the best have their bad days when you can't simply "push it aside and just ride", as my old trainer used to say. I know after going through what she is, there isn't much of ANYTHING I would be doing well.

[DLee]

I did laugh outloud reading Alison's blog.

Why is that?

[RiverBendPol]

I think the only thing Mandiba learned at Burghley is that this game is really hard and nobody's taken the time to teach him what the hell to do out there. His little mind sure looked fried to me when I watched the tape. Karen was riding like S#!t and the whole thing was misery for that poor little horse. When she finally crashed him, he took off like he'd been shot out of a cannon.

I thought Buck did a super job. His horse was dead on his feet at the finish yet Buck brought him home safe and confident. I wonder how the hernia is at this point?

HUGE kudos to Becky. She should win a prize for horsemanship. Good for her. The pressure was ON yet she did what her horse needed her to do. They're safe to give it a go another day. Super job.

[InVA]

:yes:



How are the US horses significantly different from the European horses -- the 2nd- and 3rd-stringers at that?

Arthur is by Brandenburg's Windstar who is Irish-bred and comes from a notable line of sport horses. The Good Witch is an Irish import as are Buck's horses. Truluck is by Maha Baba. Mandiba is by Master Imp, out of a High Hat mare. Critical Decision is by Consul (who evented as a young horse).

Leyland and Courageous Comet are OTT but aren't they from good sporthorse lines?

(.)

Truluck is an OTTB, too. American. TB.

[Gry2Yng]

This is not meant as an insult to any of the US team.

I noticed as I was watching the videos, the difference in the way many of the Europeans rode - they attacked the course, and when they chose a difficult line they KNEW their horse was on for it. (Of course there were some exceptions.) If you watch Phillip's video, you see that same confidence and aggressiveness.

The other thing I notice is perhaps a different model of event horse. Watching the horses go, you could see, for example, Paul Tapner attacking that course on Inonothing - but the horse was also so gung-ho that Paul was purposely sitting behind the motion at the beginning.



Thanks for pointing out Paul Tapner. I don't recognize the name and never would have watched his clip, but he was FANTASTIC. What a horse and rider pair. Anyone know the story on Inonothing? Sorry if that is a hijack. Only horse I have watched so far that did not take pause at the water/cascade jump.

[Bobthehorse]

Actually many of the best European horses and riders were being saved for the Euro championships this coming week. These were not the cream of the European cream.

I do think that the US needs something to make it more competitive, but I have no idea whether it's horses, riders, or training. I do know that American riders on American bred horses don't seem to be cutting modern day eventing at the top--except for PD. If I had to guess, I'd say it was the horses. We just don't have the bloodlines we need here. KOC is the only US rider who was riding a European purpose bred event horse, IIRC. And he is still very young. Well, I forgot Buck, and he is doing well with his Irish horses.

I think its the style of riding. Maybe its the huge show hunter culture we have here influencing us, but Americans ride much more forwards than the Brits. The Brits do attack, they sit back and they ride up to the fences and they stay close to the horse. The American style seems to be more equitation-like, light seats to the fences and a lot more air between them and their horses.

[CMCEventer]

aren't you sweet? The scoreboard doesn't matter and it was a success. Yes failure complete the event is a measure of success. Lets keep that same sentiment for next summer eh?

I wasn't trying to be sweet. As a whole, the American showing at Burghley was nothing short of a massive disappointment. My point was that our team is not going to get any better if they don't get out there and see what the toughest courses (crowds and competitors) in the world are like and how our team matches up to them. This was a huge step in the right direction for our team development (certainly not team winning this weekend). We funded (I am quite certain I'm correct) an unprecedented number of horses/riders to compete in addition to several of our developing riders to watch. Maybe Mandiba hasn't grown up as much as Karen thought he would by now. Maybe Arthur won't ever settle into the atmosphere. Those are tough decisions our team selectors and coach will have to make if we have any hope of having the WEG scoreboard look the way we want it to look next year. Burghley will give them a lot to think about.

[Gry2Yng]

I thought PT's ride was really nice. He rode through the DV so well, it looked simple and straightforward.

But for gung-ho, the stallion Leprince des Bois, really took the cake. Yikes.
)

Wow! Another thank you. LePrince DB was fun to watch. Not so fun to ride I am sure. He was using a pulley rein on the last two fences. Horse only seemed to get stronger and bolder. Edgar was that way even up to intermediate, so I was not surprised to see time penalties. Tho I am sure poor Edgar would have backed up at Burghley. I really like the way they did the video on this site. It was hard to flash from horse to horse and complex to complex on the Olympic video. Nice to pick a horse and watch it thru the course. Anyone know if they are going to post Allison's or Amy's rides?

[gully's pilot]

I was away from my computer and haven't yet seen the video of any of the rounds. But whatever else may be true regarding Karen O'Connor, she buried her father two days before she left for Burghley.

[JER]

Thanks for pointing out Paul Tapner. I don't recognize the name and never would have watched his clip, but he was FANTASTIC. What a horse and rider pair. Anyone know the story on Inonothing?

Paul Tapner runs a yard with his wife in the UK. They do eventing and sales and they have a good WS program (the Tapners are BHS-certified). He's been trying to make the Australian team for years and came very close last year with Inonothing -- he had an unfortunate stop at Badminton that probably cost him an Olympic place. The stop was caused by an unlucky bad step from the horse -- the line was right, the pace was right, then one foot struck bad terrain. After PT finished, he got off his horse, patted him and walked off behind the cars, where he thought he was out of sight of the cameras, and beat his whip on the ground in exasperation. But the camera got it all and it was heartbreaking to watch. He'd worked so hard and was one footfall from perfect.

Inonothing is a UK-bred TB who PT has been riding for 5 or 6 years now. He had a top 10 finish last year at Burghley, IIRC. Nice horse.

[Gry2Yng]

Thanks for the backstory. I will now be watching and cheering for their success.

[archieflies]

Can somebody give me a link to videos. I must have bene in a cave or something the last few days. :)

[eclipse06]

Here's the link:

http://burghley.tv/index.php?p=btv

You have to register to watch the videos, but it's quick and easy to do :)

[vineyridge]

JER, how do you know the breeding on Inonothing? I've looked and looked and come up with this:
That he's by Basildon Bond xx out of Cassie. However, equineline doesn't show a stallion named Basildon Bond in their database. I've looked in NED, and most with that name, including an eventer, are geldings. Weatherbys didn't enter him. There are two possibilities who are just listed as male. One is a gray ID x TB cross; the other is an unknown bay.

Just from the names, and lack of info from the TB registries, it would appear that Inonothing is some kind of super mutt. :winkgrin: He was entered into NED by BEF as being of unknown breeding, a 17h bay gelding from 1996.

[Carol Ames]

Jim Wofford always said that after horses/ riders jumped courses like this , :eek: WEG. Olympics there is a:yes: change; I believe he meant in their wilingness:winkgrin: to attack fences!

[Shrapnel]

Becky Holder's performances always puzzle me. It's either hit or miss with her and Comet. They either do really well or really bad.

I think Amy, Phillip and Buck did well despite the stupidly designed XC course. CMP seriously needs to quit designing courses.

I was disappointed with Allison, Missy and Jennifer's performances. I think Allison and Jennifer are still waiting for that break-out result at this level. I was actually expecting Missy to do well at Burghley after her 3rd place finish at Rolex last year. I'm not sure what went wrong there.

As for Karen, I'm not completely sure what the problem is here. Is Mandiba really cut out for 4 star competition? Or is he just still 'green' at this level? Is it time for Karen to hang up her helmet and boots for good? This I do not know and will not comment on right now. I just hope this combo get it together in whatever way is necessary. I will say though, that the O'Connor's horses are trained exceptionally well and that is definitely not the problem.

How many more months until WEG....

[vineyridge]

Do you think what it takes to be a top 4* rider is a willingness to break horses to win? Just wondering here.

[advmom]

What is the purpose of this question?
Every rider who events accepts that there is risk involved for rider and horse each and every time they ride.
No one willingly puts their horse at risk to break...which is why they withdraw when conditions aren't optimal

[riderboy]

Paul Tapner runs a yard with his wife in the UK. They do eventing and sales and they have a good WS program (the Tapners are BHS-certified). He's been trying to make the Australian team for years and came very close last year with Inonothing -- he had an unfortunate stop at Badminton that probably cost him an Olympic place. The stop was caused by an unlucky bad step from the horse -- the line was right, the pace was right, then one foot struck bad terrain. After PT finished, he got off his horse, patted him and walked off behind the cars, where he thought he was out of sight of the cameras, and beat his whip on the ground in exasperation. But the camera got it all and it was heartbreaking to watch. He'd worked so hard and was one footfall from perfect.

Inonothing is a UK-bred TB who PT has been riding for 5 or 6 years now. He had a top 10 finish last year at Burghley, IIRC. Nice horse.THAT was the guy! I remember the video, at the time I thought he was just being a real jerk by throwing a hissy fit. Wow, that boy can ride. And I guess I was completely wrong about him .

[archieflies]

What is the purpose of this question?
Every rider who events accepts that there is risk involved for rider and horse each and every time they ride.
No one willingly puts their horse at risk to break...which is why they withdraw when conditions aren't optimal

I could be wrong, but I took vineyridge's comment to mean the same as what you said. Some people seem to think that withdrawing is a sign of a bad rider, like somehow Becky's ride would be better if she had kept going even though she knew she shouldn't. Of course, those same people that are annoyed at her for quitting would probably be just as critical in a thread about a fall/injury/breakdown that might have resulted if she'd kept going. (I say this without having seen the ride- I assume that if she withdrew, she had a reason,) I could be misinterpreting vineyridge's question. But ain't nothing shameful about withdrawing when doing otherwise might break the horse.

[vineyridge]

I really don't quite know the purpose of the question. The US riders who did well at Burghley were all ones with a famous history of attacking XC with vigor and relentlessness. I'm also reminded of BD Sr. and Might Tango, and some of the other riders with "history" that JER has referred to. It's the relentlessness that might deafen the rider to what the horse is saying.

Riders who are willing to put the horse first are always to be commended; but maybe it also is a bit of a weakness in very high level competition.

[denny]

In his May/June Eventing USA Captain`s Commentary, CMP says of Buck Davidson: "to finish in the mix of this exalted company was truly a remarkable achievement on the young My Boy Bobby.

I was the buyer`s agent for that horse EIGHT years ago, when Bobby was 5. He`s now coming FOURTEEN. Is that "young?"

How can the US coach not know anything about the top US horse at Rolex?

We have a broken system.

[bean]

I could be wrong, but I took vineyridge's comment to mean the same as what you said. Some people seem to think that withdrawing is a sign of a bad rider, like somehow Becky's ride would be better if she had kept going even though she knew she shouldn't. Of course, those same people that are annoyed at her for quitting would probably be just as critical in a thread about a fall/injury/breakdown that might have resulted if she'd kept going. (I say this without having seen the ride- I assume that if she withdrew, she had a reason,) I could be misinterpreting vineyridge's question. But ain't nothing shameful about withdrawing when doing otherwise might break the horse.



Of course only Becky knows as she was riding Comet, but from the video he did not seem to be going any different from when he is going well. I personally saw no reason for her to withdraw after her final stop.

[SevenDogs]

Of course only Becky knows as she was riding Comet, but from the video he did not seem to be going any different from when he is going well. I personally saw no reason for her to withdraw after her final stop.

....and your qualifications to be able to make such a judgement are????? The rider is in the best position to make a judgement like that and think about what we do (and should do) to those that make the wrong judgement.

Bean, your "win at all costs" attitude is NOT what we need in this sport! People will pull up and retire. That's why we have the "R" designation in the scoring. At this level, I would venture to say that every horse in it's career might have a day where it is better to retire on course and try another day. That's what makes good horsemanship.

Perhaps Bean, you are happier at competitions where everyone finishes or dies? You are striking me as a bit troll-like with your posts.

[Ajierene]

Take a breath, Sevendogs, bean was just posting an opinion, with the caveat that only Becky knows for sure.

I was also surprised by Becky's withdrawal since the horse did not look bad at all. I was surprised when she called it a day at that refusal.

I was also a bit surprised when William Fox-Pitt retired on Machiatto - but he seemed concerned that the his horse was off, injured at that refusal.

Becky's horse looked fine, but maybe two refusals meant he is not right today, or the refusal at the skinny was unlike him, who knows - but I was surprised also.

Karen and Mandiba are a question mark for me also - he did not look into it at all. In looking up his records, he seems to do well at the Advances levels, but once you hit 3* and higher....he gets lost.

[archieflies]

I too would be interested in Bean's qualifications. Are we hearing from a rider who has competed successfully at international 4* events and therefore knows exactly what it takes to be successful? Or is it more like the drunk guy who always seems to be behind me at football games, loudly calling out what the players *should* have done after each and every play (generally right before he falls off his seat and lands on top of me...)? I mean, I guess there is nothing inherently wrong with being "that guy"-- each person is free to be as critical as he or she desires-- but NOBODY wants to sit near him.

[CiegoStar]

What is the purpose of finishing xc when you have two stops less than halfway though the course? You'll never place well, and in Becky's case it doesn't appear that she needs the "schooling opportunity" (as if a 4* could be used for schooling). When Comet is on, he is very very on. IMHO Becky may have felt that it wasn't worth wasting her precious jewel of a horse - and he seems to be one of those once-in-a-lifetime types - just to say she completed XC at Burghley.

Watching Mandiba go gives me the willies. Makes me wish for Teddy, that's for sure.

[retreadeventer]

Denny, we were all shocked when they upped his contract another 10 years.

Burghley is a step up, from all accounts, from Rolex. Horses with mediocre showings at Rolex could hardly be counted upon to be shining lights at a harder event.

Preparing in England seems to do our horses in every time. Sure it might be nice to do the parties and run about driving on the wrong side of the road but what is getting our horses and riders prepared for these contests - work at home, or work in the last minute over there?

My only criticism: The dressage test errors are INEXCUSABLE.

Please watch the wonderful videos from Burghley. The way they ride and the way we ride says a lot. They keep their butts out of the saddle and don't hit the horses in the backs between fences. Our riders can barely stay out of the saddle. Our horses with some exceptions don't look full of run. They look tired. Their horses look fresh.

Our riders look, with some exceptions, like they can't sit the trot like they have been doing dressage 20 years. Their riders do. Our riders are tight in their backs and handsy.

Right now the levels at the top seem to be fluxing. A "real" four star, a three star, this one - that one. I don't fault riders because I am not sure what used to be a four star event horse is the same animal today, and they are trying to see what horse is going to fit where. We - as a rule - meaning our top riders - don't have the luxury of a barnful of advanced horses that can be pointed to each and every four star venue - Phillip is probably the only one who fits that category but I daresay (not knowing for sure) there may be many trainers in Europe that fit that. Gosh our top riders can be seen every weekend riding training, preliminary and intermediate horses in horse trial after horse trial. I wonder if the European top riders have to do that to keep big yards of good Advanced horses. I doubt it.

I am loathe to criticize riders who lay it out there and try. I would much rather fault the system as Denny has, in my view, properly pointed out. These guys are working their butts off to get there. We don't have a Jack LeGoff watching the horses and bringing them along with every detail looked after any more. The coach we have now doesn't know how old his horses are. Some of the riders have figured out how to manage on their own and others haven't. Riders like Buck have a generation of experience to draw on, and he makes use of his father's opinions. Amy has been producing for us for years on her own, it's not luck, it's work. She comes ready to party by the time her horses touch down at Heathrow or where ever they land.

[DLee]

I rewatched Karen's ride and I saw Mandiba slip at least twice, just on corners. I seriously doubt it's time for her to hang up her spurs.

[SevenDogs]

Denny, we were all shocked when they upped his contract another 10 years.


I'll add disguisted to the list. :no:

[SevenDogs]

Take a breath, Sevendogs, bean was just posting an opinion, with the caveat that only Becky knows for sure.


um... you might want to take a look at Bean's posting history. A trail of troll-like posting and this was no different, IMO.

Archiflies, you cracked me up! :lol:

[Gry2Yng]

What is the purpose of finishing xc when you have two stops less than halfway though the course? You'll never place well, and in Becky's case it doesn't appear that she needs the "schooling opportunity" (as if a 4* could be used for schooling). When Comet is on, he is very very on. IMHO Becky may have felt that it wasn't worth wasting her precious jewel of a horse - and he seems to be one of those once-in-a-lifetime types - just to say she completed XC at Burghley.

Watching Mandiba go gives me the willies. Makes me wish for Teddy, that's for sure.

IIRC, Becky and Comet were in the top 10 after xc at Burghley in years past. Not sure which year. I know she and Comet have competed and been in the awards ceremony, so no, she did not need to complete just to say she had.

[CiegoStar]

Just to clarify, I didn't mean to imply that Becky "just had to complete xc at Burghley," but that she had to finish in general. Speaking to the point of finishing xc as a matter of principle rather than just being smart and calling it a day, because why complete a punishing xc when things are already well past going your way. It's clear from Comet's history that he is a capable 4* horse.

[Gry2Yng]

I got ya. I was trying to add support. sorry if it didn't come off that way.

[wef26]

I am getting sad reading this, these people are out there trying their hardest. If you can do it better, get your butt out there and do it. Yes we are far from the glory days of US Eventing, however, that is not going to be fixed in the time it takes to get from Rolex to Burghley and it would be a miracle if it is fixed for WEG. I wish I could ride as well as the riders we sent.

[fernie fox]

In his May/June Eventing USA Captain`s Commentary, CMP says of Buck Davidson: "to finish in the mix of this exalted company was truly a remarkable achievement on the young My Boy Bobby.

I was the buyer`s agent for that horse EIGHT years ago, when Bobby was 5. He`s now coming FOURTEEN. Is that "young?"

How can the US coach not know anything about the top US horse at Rolex?

We have a broken system...........

Yes you do,but how can UK hire this Jerk to make my beloved Burghley a repetion of Red Hill.

Honest to god I never thought I would see the day.

I am too old and totally gobsmacked when I watched this beautiful course reduced to ,""boot and haul"",

Honest horses just don't need that sort of punishment.

I have had,one whiskey too many,I am off to bed,maybe I will feel happier in the morning,but I doupt it.

I choose to remember Burghley as it was,in the 70s,lovely galloping courses,big fly fences,the Trout Hatchery etc.

When riders like Bruce Davidson came over and kicked our butts,he was such a joy to watch.;) I swear we aprecciated him more than they did here in the
US.

I'm outa here.

CMP stinks as a course builder.Please bring back some decent course builders,that don"t punish or trick our wonderful honest forward running crosscountry horses.

[lizajane09]

I am getting sad reading this, these people are out there trying their hardest. If you can do it better, get your butt out there and do it. Yes we are far from the glory days of US Eventing, however, that is not going to be fixed in the time it takes to get from Rolex to Burghley and it would be a miracle if it is fixed for WEG. I wish I could ride as well as the riders we sent.

No one here is saying they think they could have "done it better" - they're observing a trend. Just because someone thinks that improvements can and should be made to the U.S. eventing program doesn't mean that they don't appreciate that the riders who rode for the U.S. at Burghley and the fact that they are working very hard out there. If we never let anyone criticize or comment except for those who could this very minute run out there and do it better... we wouldn't make very much progress, would we? :)

[OneDaySoon]

I thought Ollie Townend described it well when he said in the audio interview of Carousel Quest "He is a Burghley horse...a true four star horse". And I think there are XC riders who are true "Burghley riders" (PD, Mary King, William F-P) for example. The XC course may have separated true Burghley horses or riders (or partnerships) from those that are not (or not quite yet). Call it heart, call it national training culture, call it decades of **** experience, call it life timing, call it luck - some combination of all of these things along with "a true Burghley horse" and maybe one can finish in the top ten...and rinse and repeat next year...or in the same year.

[archieflies]

I am too old and totally gobsmacked when I watched this beautiful course reduced to ,""boot and haul"",

I feel you... I haven't had the opportunity to watch a lot of 4* courses, only the crappy TV coverage we get from Rolex and Olympic games... but watching the (very nice) videos from this weekend did make me quite dizzy. Watching it, I'm thinking, "Oh, that's not that big a jump... wait, did he just do a turn on the haunches on XC?... Wow, he just had to trot to make that turn... haven't they been through this same water a few times now?... How exactly do they remember this course?... Um, that was a little scary... ok, good, they're done." It looked absolutely miserable to ride.

And retreadeventer, I think you're right on in your last paragraph there... we can't expect any one person to turn the whole system around, but by God, they're out there trying.

[vineyridge]

What bothers me so much about where the US is now is that we HAVE at least one proven 4* rider with gobs of international experience sitting on the sidelines because she doesn't have a horse. Y'all know I'm talking about Kim Severson, who seems to be slipping farther and farther from the Team.

WHY doesn't she have a horse? Or two or three? of the kind of quality that PD seems to have going through his barn every single year? Why don't the PTB do some heavy hitting for her?

[2LaZ2race]

What bothers me so much about where the US is now is that we HAVE at least one proven 4* rider with gobs of international experience sitting on the sidelines because she doesn't have a horse. Y'all know I'm talking about Kim Severson, who seems to be slipping farther and farther from the Team.

WHY doesn't she have a horse? Or two or three? of the kind of quality that PD seems to have going through his barn every single year? Why don't the PTB do some heavy hitting for her?

Although Phillip is my favorite.. I saw Kim ride at Rolex in 2005; beautiful

I've always had an issue with Mandiba, I'm sure he's a sweet horse and I had talking badly about any horse but he just doesn't make me comfortable watching him... if that makes any sense! He reminds me of that kid in class that wants to do really well but just doesn't get it :)

[2horseowner]

2Laz2race, were you reading my mind?! I agree totally about Mandiba. He never looked comfortable in Hong Kong, nor did he look comfortable at Burghley. I do wish Kim could get some good horses, as she is so talented. I think Paddy is recovering from a broken splint bone? Too bad, she did so well at Rolex, and is a proven 4* competitor.

[SlamDunk]

I just watched the video of Mandiba. The horse looks like a showjumper to me....perhaps she is a bit too careful to be an eventer, She looks like she doesn't want to touch anything.

[jumpfan]

I rewatched Karen's ride and I saw Mandiba slip at least twice, just on corners. I seriously doubt it's time for her to hang up her spurs.

As for Karen, I'm not completely sure what the problem is here. Is Mandiba really cut out for 4 star competition? Or is he just still 'green' at this level? Is it time for Karen to hang up her helmet and boots for good? This I do not know and will not comment on right now. I just hope this combo get it together in whatever way is necessary. I will say though, that the O'Connor's horses are trained exceptionally well and that is definitely not the problem.

How many more months until WEG....

I would like to get a statement by Karen but I can´t find any comment. Of course she is demoralized at the moment and the fall hurts.

There is no doubt that it IS NOT time for her to hang up her boots.
Karen rides many horses. She is as fit as a fiddle and very athletic as ever and has not lost her boldness. But sometimes her gutsy riding resulting in falls. Remember her horrible fall in Burghley in the year of 1997 (cracked sternum, multiple bruises).
This year she had many successful competitions on different horses. It must be very stressful and challenging to take part in so many competitions as Karen does it. She never stops competing during the year.

I think the main reason for her poor performance is that Mandiba has not the routine for a 4 star event. Mandiba needs to be trained and prepared in England. There are much more opportunities to take part in very challenging competitions.

Karen is the figurehead of the US eventing. I am convinced she will regain her strength and will be part of the US team at the next WEG.

[LisaB]

When these riders go to the training sessions and they would find better use of their time conditioning their horses on the O'Connors' hills rather than getting a lesson, there's a problem.
Many of these riders get training from bits of people. They'll go specifically to a dressage instructor or a show jumper here and there. But they don't have someone to kick their ass (CORRECTLY) and put all the pieces together for them. And have a true gameplan set out in their head when they set out for a competition like this. Think about us, we have our instructors. We get a lesson before a big show and we get that game plan in our head. We then get warm ups from them most of the time. These riders don't get that luxury.

[riderboy]

..........

Yes you do,but how can UK hire this Jerk to make my beloved Burghley a repetion of Red Hill.

Honest to god I never thought I would see the day.

I am too old and totally gobsmacked when I watched this beautiful course reduced to ,""boot and haul"",

Honest horses just don't need that sort of punishment.

I have had,one whiskey too many,I am off to bed,maybe I will feel happier in the morning,but I doupt it.

I choose to remember Burghley as it was,in the 70s,lovely galloping courses,big fly fences,the Trout Hatchery etc.

When riders like Bruce Davidson came over and kicked our butts,he was such a joy to watch.;) I swear we aprecciated him more than they did here in the
US.

I'm outa here.

CMP stinks as a course builder.Please bring back some decent course builders,that don"t punish or trick our wonderful honest forward running crosscountry horses. I guess my question would be, why don't the RIDERS take some sort of stand if things are bad. One really can't have a show without them and the economic impact of shutting down a big 4* would be huge. Ditto for the coach. Or is getting them all to agree on anything just impossible.

[retreadeventer]

I cannot speak for other countries, but in the past, in the US, part of what previous coaches did was to match up eager, deep pocketed owners with riders and help to sort out which riders would do better with which horses. This at the deep end of the spectrum was almost dictatorial at one point, but it times change, and the concept of doing it changed as well. The coach still helps match up horses with riders ***I think*** but not sure it's done as much to our advantage as it could be. Bottom line is still, comes back around to, money, the management of it, and the allocation of it in proper directions.

LisaB is right, the riders don't have someone at their head to sort of take lessons from, they get help from different people. But that's ok as long as the Coach, at the head of the ship, has all on same page. Role of coach or chef is a difficult one and few have done it spectactularly. I believe, altho I am not privy to special knowledge, Denny can chime in here - that truly top coaches in eventing can be counted on one hand. We are probably not the only country with coach trouble.

The results at Burghley are actually pretty positive, if you look at it from a country standpoint. The British, the Aussies, the US, and other countries here and there in the standings. Basically we ended in a bronze medal position, and I think that is fairly positive for our riders. I am not ready to throw in the towel on the WEG prospects yet!

[sisu27]

What is the purpose of finishing xc when you have two stops less than halfway though the course? You'll never place well, and in Becky's case it doesn't appear that she needs the "schooling opportunity" (as if a 4* could be used for schooling). When Comet is on, he is very very on. IMHO Becky may have felt that it wasn't worth wasting her precious jewel of a horse - and he seems to be one of those once-in-a-lifetime types - just to say she completed XC at Burghley.

Watching Mandiba go gives me the willies. Makes me wish for Teddy, that's for sure.

Ok, stupid theoretical question....what if Karen had been there on Teddy? Would people still be suggesting she doesn't "have it" anymore? Is this about Mandiba or Karen? I hardly think Karen has lost even a step. I also can't imagine how hard it is to lose a parent so....I say cut her and Mandiba some slack. Time will tell.

[DLee]

Ok, stupid theoretical question....what if Karen had been there on Teddy? Would people still be suggesting she doesn't "have it" anymore? Is this about Mandiba or Karen? I hardly think Karen has lost even a step. I also can't imagine how hard it is to lose a parent so....I say cut her and Mandiba some slack. Time will tell.

Exactly. Geez.

I am personally looking forward to seeing her newish OTTB, One Step Closer, come up through the ranks. I saw him schooling in June, and just have a feeling about him. Hoping I'm right. :yes:

[JWB]

Here's the link:

http://burghley.tv/index.php?p=btv

You have to register to watch the videos, but it's quick and easy to do :)

Thanks for that. Now we can safely assume that I'll do NO work today.

[LexInVA]

Thanks for that. Now we can safely assume that I'll do NO work today.

How is that any different from any other regular work day with COTH? :lol:

[GotSpots]

Burghley is the hardest course in the world - and the questions it asks on that stage are big, tough, and in a cauldron of pressure unlike anything in the states. We sent horses/riders who had jumped around Rolex clean (in some cases, more than once), and horses/riders who are learning how to perform at this level. I think those are fair entries - not that I'm all-knowing, but I didn't see anyone on that list that made me raise my eyebrows and wonder if they should be there. But that doesn't mean they are all going to be perfect first time out. A course like Burghley will point out where a rider might have some homework to do in their riding or their horses' education - and regardless of who you are, there are very few riders/horses who don't have holes somewhere. Recall that a number of the US riders here were in some of their first tries at true international class competition, without alot of experience away from the states. I don't think riders learn how to go around a course like Burghley or Badminton or the WEG by riding the courses from their beds. It takes going out and doing it a few times to learn how to play ball on that playground - and the armchair quarterbacking doesn't change that. Similarly, young horses or horses new to this level sometimes take a bit of time to figure out whether they want to play the game here. Maybe they do, maybe they don't, maybe it's still in flux, but I don't think it's fair to cast stones quite as quickly as it seems like some are wont to do.

[Regal Grace]

I would like to get a statement by Karen but I can´t find any comment. Of course she is demoralized at the moment and the fall hurts.

There is no doubt that it IS NOT time for her to hang up her boots.
Karen rides many horses. She is as fit as a fiddle and very athletic as ever and has not lost her boldness. But sometimes her gutsy riding resulting in falls. Remember her horrible fall in Burghley in the year of 1997 (cracked sternum, multiple bruises).
This year she had many successful competitions on different horses. It must be very stressful and challenging to take part in so many competitions as Karen does it. She never stops competing during the year.

I think the main reason for her poor performance is that Mandiba has not the routine for a 4 star event. Mandiba needs to be trained and prepared in England. There are much more opportunities to take part in very challenging competitions.

Karen is the figurehead of the US eventing. I am convinced she will regain her strength and will be part of the US team at the next WEG.

Wish we could do it all over again -

This is a sport of highs and lows.... and when the lows come - you just want to get away from them. Looking back on why Burghley didn't go as planned - we can come up with a thousand reasons.

Doodle was low on runs - He a gas belly ache three days before we trotted up - Karen's father just died - we missed Richland due to the funeral - footing was deceptive and we needed bigger studs - on and on and on - and in the end, IT IS WHAT IT IS.
Too much too soon on so many levels.

And for all the miserable people on the Chronicle chat room - the stirrups are adjustable, you try and ride that track - be nice, we already feel really bad, don't make us feel worse. Cheer us on and be a part of something great.

Home to regroup - Home for more runs - Home to let Karen's soul heal from loosing her papa - Home for more gallops - Home for hugs from friends - Home to kick on again -

For those that watched the TV coverage, sadly they didn't show where Doodle was great and where he really started to grow up on the course - he slipped with the off camber ground on take off to the first corner just as Andrew Nicholson's horse did and he landed on the corner with his knees and pitched Karen out of the tack.

Small scrape on his stifle is his only injury - Everyone is alive, everyone is going to run and play again. Perspective is an amazing thing - sadly we get it right after we needed it!

Horses fly out tonight - Karen home today and we are off to Five Points this weekend. If anyone is there - Hug Karen, she needs it right now. She is a brilliant rider, brilliant horseman, and needs people to give back to her like she has given out for years.

more soon....
http://special.equisearch.com/blog/maxcorcoran/2009/09/too-much-too-soon.html

[piccolittle]

Ok, stupid theoretical question....what if Karen had been there on Teddy? Would people still be suggesting she doesn't "have it" anymore? Is this about Mandiba or Karen? I hardly think Karen has lost even a step. I also can't imagine how hard it is to lose a parent so....I say cut her and Mandiba some slack. Time will tell.

My problem with Mandiba is that I feel he has been pushed up the levels by virtue of the fact that he was purchased as Karen's next **** prospect. I remember when she started him at Novice, and the next year he was going Preliminary, and perhaps not because he had the drive, passion, and (unexpected) talent that Teddy did, but because he was expected to be a high-level event horse. Personally, I feel his story is part of the problem with eventing today.

He has never been a high achiever at the **** level, and it makes me wonder why no one has realized that he may simply be a **/*** horse. It's because he's all Karen has now.

On that note, does anyone know what's going on with Hugh Knows?

[LexInVA]

True dat.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I was also surprised by Becky's withdrawal since the horse did not look bad at all. I was surprised when she called it a day at that refusal.




Not surprising at all....she had two stops. You are going to be way out of contention at that point. NO ONE goes to Burghley to school xc...you go to comptete. Better to save your horse and his legs for another day. One stop...I could understand continuing on if the rider or horse are newish to the level....but two stops at different fences...most riders would have pulled up IMO. He isn't a green horse and this wasn't his first ****.... better to save him, go and work on tuning his skills at home then continuing and taking the risk of injury or blowing his confidence. She made the smart choice.

There was certainly some really good riding and performances at Burghley...and it was fantastic to see as much video...THANK YOU Burghley TV and sponsors!

We do have a LOT of very good riders in the US. But our top riders don't always have the top horses....or their horses get hurt. None of this is a new problem. We need to be getting some of our outstanding xc riders together with outstanding mounts....and keep them sound.

FWIW....I didn't see bad riding in Karen's round (maybe I don't know anything...I saw a few mistakes...and a few flashes of her normal ability. No, it wasn't her most brillant ride but not the worst ride of the videos.....and given what she has had going on in her life recently....it could have been a much worse ride)...and Mandiba is a lovely horse. He looked like he was slipping some behind (I actually wondered if he lost a shoe but it doesn't look like it). The fall at the corner just looked like he lost his footing... I didn't see anything that looked like that horse didn't belong...he just looked uncomfortable with the footing....a run or two to build back up his confidence, and I suspect he will be competitive in the future.


PS...I also LOVED watching that stallion go...boy he looked keen and having a great time...his rider...not so much! But damn...if a course like that doesn't back him down, nothing will. Hope they get him more rideable! I believe that was his first **** wasn't it?

[JWB]

PS...I also LOVED watching that stallion go...boy he looked keen and having a great time...his rider...not so much! But damn...if a course like that doesn't back him down, nothing will. Hope they get him more rideable! I believe that was his first **** wasn't it?


He was something.... Interesting to me because he looked like he'd jump whatever he was pointed at and he was STILL going strong at the bitter end but I had to feel a little for the rider (Can you say blisters and shoulder pain?) and I wonder if his offspring inherit his "personality." Maybe not so ammy friendly.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

He was something.... Interesting to me because he looked like he'd jump whatever he was pointed at and he was STILL going strong at the bitter end but I had to feel a little for the rider (Can you say blisters and shoulder pain?) and I wonder if his offspring inherit his "personality." Maybe not so ammy friendly.


Not so ammy friendly I agree.....but I have a TB mare that might suit him perfectly (but would want to see if he becomes more ridable or stays a freight train...and how he moves and show jumps)....and I'd give the foal to Boyd or Phillip to ride:D

[Tazzie]

We sent horses/riders who had jumped around Rolex clean (in some cases, more than once), and horses/riders who are learning how to perform at this level. I think those are fair entries - not that I'm all-knowing, but I didn't see anyone on that list that made me raise my eyebrows and wonder if they should be there. But that doesn't mean they are all going to be perfect first time out. ...I don't think it's fair to cast stones quite as quickly as it seems like some are wont to do.


I'm the last one to give much of an opinion considering I am very much a smurf. I event at the lowest levels but still give back often as a volunteer. Nonetheless I wanted to ditto this.

[JER]

And for all the miserable people on the Chronicle chat room - the stirrups are adjustable, you try and ride that track - be nice, we already feel really bad, don't make us feel worse. Cheer us on and be a part of something great.

Max --

You refer to us as 'miserable people' and then tell us to 'cheer you on'?

Please don't talk to us that way.

We're not miserable people. We're dedicated fans of and participants in the sport of eventing. Your sport is our sport.

No one here wants anything but the best for Karen and Mandiba. There was a heartfelt condolence thread on here for her about her father's death. There were many, many pages of praise and ultimately, condolences for you and Karen about Teddy the pony.

I know you had a rough weekend and people here have written about it but please try to remember the outpourings of support that you've had from the board over the years. It far outweighs anything anyone said about Saturday.

Best of luck. You have a talented horse and Karen is one of eventing's greatest riders. We all want to see them on the victory gallop.

[sisu27]

My problem with Mandiba is that I feel he has been pushed up the levels by virtue of the fact that he was purchased as Karen's next **** prospect. I remember when she started him at Novice, and the next year he was going Preliminary, and perhaps not because he had the drive, passion, and (unexpected) talent that Teddy did, but because he was expected to be a high-level event horse. Personally, I feel his story is part of the problem with eventing today.

He has never been a high achiever at the **** level, and it makes me wonder why no one has realized that he may simply be a **/*** horse. It's because he's all Karen has now.

On that note, does anyone know what's going on with Hugh Knows?

I don't disagree. I also feel that what you describe is a problem all over in horse sport. I don't care what a bloodline says....some horses prefer one job to another. It is a COMMON story that all the breeding and hoping in the world can mean nothing when the rubber hits the road. I let my horses pick their jobs to a degree but I am not a pro. So when do you say "uncle" and give up on a horse like Mandiba? For every story of a horse that didn't cut it you hear a story of a horse that finally has it "click". I dunno. I hardly think the sky is falling at this point and am a bit confused by all the fuss.

I am also Canadian and thus have no dog in this fight. Maybe just emotion and hopes running high as we count down to the WEG?

[piccolittle]

So when do you say "uncle" and give up on a horse like Mandiba? For every story of a horse that didn't cut it you hear a story of a horse that finally has it "click". I dunno. I hardly think the sky is falling at this point and am a bit confused by all the fuss.


Then again, we have to emphasize that keeping the horse at *** just a little while longer is in no way "giving up." I mean, he'd hardly done a *** when they sent him to Hong Kong. I always believed that the ****s are for the best of the best, the most experienced and talented horses, the very top. I thought you sent them to **** when they had nothing left to learn from ***s. The horse shouldn't have to be learning as much as he needs to at an event like Burghley.

He's so young, I just feel he needed a lot more mileage before they stuck him in with the big dogs at the Olympics, Rolex, and Burghley. IMHO, it really showed.

[Robby Johnson]

I thought PT's ride was really nice. He rode through the DV so well, it looked simple and straightforward.

But for gung-ho, the stallion Leprince des Bois, really took the cake. Yikes.

Is that the Summersong son? I saw them at the Cascade and the corner complex immediately prior. It was quite frightening to me, actually.

Having watched a big chunk of the afternoon at the Land Rover Discovery, there were several who did a really great job getting through, but only a few who really made it look like cake. I have video of Zara's ride there, which I thought was quite nice, and Caroline Powell (or is it Pratt? - a little groggy today as I just got home yesterday) on Lenamore were pretty spot-on.

I meant to call you to tell you I was there, JER. You're exactly right re: your commentary at Kentucky this year. It's really no comparison.

As far as riding culture differences, I think you need to look more closely to social cultures and practices. Brits are notoriously self-sufficient with a "get on with it" mentality. I personally perceive this as potentially dangerous since most people who keep things bottled up usually end up with a bottle of something on the other end but, at the same time, there's a healthy balance to be recognized when compared to the over-dependence of Americans to rely on their feelings and being supported at an emotional level.

[LessonLearned]

Interesting response from Max -- albeit not the most rhetorically sensitive one.

I understand the drive it must take to get a horse going at that level. Mandiba looks like a game little horse who has been WAY out of his league in his two (very) public outings.

I find the commentary of "what could we have done differently" concerning, because, *I* (as a pre-smurf extraordinaire) know when I have not been riding or prepping enough for me or my horse to go somewhere.

I won't say it wasn't brave for Karen to take Mandiba out there, but if you have a horse that is "low on runs" and a rider who (understandably) is distraught over the death of her father, perhaps it wasn't in the best interest of the horse/rider to attempt Burghley.

I don't find any of the commentary on here "offensive," I think there is a lot of questioning a decision that turned out to be a bad one. I am glad that they will both go on to ride another day around other big courses - and win. It just wasn't going to happen here.

[Robby Johnson]

I thought Ollie Townend described it well when he said in the audio interview of Carousel Quest "He is a Burghley horse...a true four star horse". And I think there are XC riders who are true "Burghley riders" (PD, Mary King, William F-P) for example. The XC course may have separated true Burghley horses or riders (or partnerships) from those that are not (or not quite yet). Call it heart, call it national training culture, call it decades of **** experience, call it life timing, call it luck - some combination of all of these things along with "a true Burghley horse" and maybe one can finish in the top ten...and rinse and repeat next year...or in the same year.

That was apparent from his dressage test which was stunning. I told FairWeather when he finished, "That horse looks like it can go do something athletic tomorrow." Allison's test has the same components. Yes, the spook must be addressed for Arthur to be a confirmed 4* horse. But he is an INCREDIBLE athlete and Allison is a very accomplished, determined, and focused jockey. 2 hours after her unfortunate experience she was in the barn formulating a plan. I wouldn't rule any of them out, but we've got to get away from this "journey is the thing" mentality where winning international events is concerned. Because it's not. The win is the thing. That's the measure to which we're held accountable. Practice to win. Go to win. Win.

[bean]

I wouldn't rule any of them out, but we've got to get away from this "journey is the thing" mentality where winning international events is concerned. Because it's not. The win is the thing. That's the measure to which we're held accountable. Practice to win. Go to win. Win.



You said it better then me, and I agree entirely.

[fordtraktor]

Well, I for one would not judge Mandiba based on a performance where his rider was under severe emotional stress. He is young and was slipping a bit. He didn't look bad to me, but I bet would have looked better and more confident wearing a different set of studs.

And the thought that Karen should hang up her spurs because she had a bad day two days after burying her father seems, well, a bit out to sea. She is consistently one of our better competitors, even if in a dry spell. I for one am willing to cut her some slack instead of confiscating her red jacket. And it isn't as if we have a slew of replacements lined up.

[JWB]

The website is down with the videos right now.... Guess I should submit some of my customers' orders

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Is that the Summersong son? I saw them at the Cascade and the corner complex immediately prior. It was quite frightening to me, actually.




I wondered if it looked more frightening in person....there is a problem with being too bold. I'd be curious if they can get him more rideable (and wondered what his SJ and dressage looked like too)....because the fences certainly didn't hold him at this point.

[asterix]

I thought the exact same thing -- I think there was another moment, perhaps right at the end (going on memory here) where he really made me gasp, and not in a good way.

I always have such mixed feelings watching a **** -- when it goes well, it's such a beautiful thing to see, but when it doesn't, it makes me glad that my own ambitions for the sport (not to mention the honkin' heavy lovely guys I prefer to ride :lol:) don't even touch the true upper levels.

[NeverTime]

I wouldn't rule any of them out, but we've got to get away from this "journey is the thing" mentality where winning international events is concerned. Because it's not. The win is the thing. That's the measure to which we're held accountable. Practice to win. Go to win. Win.

Robby, are you talking about the general, BB "we" or these particular riders as the "we"? Because I cannot imagine that any one of those people, WEG berths on their shoulders - whether they went with years of Team experience or as first-timers trying to make a good impression - went over there with some warm, soft-focus idea of this experience being about the journey. All of them "went to win" -- even with a grant, it's no small effort or expense to get to Burghley.

But after something happens - like a run-out XC - more's the better to rejigger priorities for the rest of the course and *try* to make sure they come home with a horse and rider who are better educated, more confident and sound.

Whatever happened with Becky, it's not as if she was going to be in contention after two stops and she decided to limit her losses and pull up. Good. Alison kept trying to give her horse some experience, and from her blog, it sounds like she doesn't feel he's any worse for it. Good. Missy said the first half was rough but thought her horse clicked in and finished really well, getting bolder and more confident. Good.

The riders know better than anyone that it's only the final standings that matter to everyone outside their barns, but they notice the little things that happened, blog about those things because -- unlike BB land, where we can armchair QB the results and pontificate on what needs to happen, what went wrong and the hypothetical trends we see -- they need to go home and deal with the aftermath of Burghley, figure out where and how their horses benefitted or were hurt by the experience and how to proceed from there. I don't read anything I've seen so far as an "excuse" or delusional or sounding like "yay, it's about the journey." I think I'm reading disappointed riders analyzing what happened so they can proceed and improve.

[mademoiselle]

Yes, Leprince des Bois is a Selle Français by Summerong and there is Galoubet and Tbs lines on the dam side.
He is 10 YO, he was started in France, he did fairly well at the Younge Horse championship as a 5 and 6 YO, and then as a 7 year old he went thru 3 **** riders' barns in less than a year ... It tells you something :eek::eek::eek:
After that, I guess he moved to Germany because, he didn't compete in France anymore.

[JER]

Yes, Leprince des Bois is a Selle Français by Summerong and there is Galoubet and Tbs lines on the dam side.
He is 10 YO, he was started in France, he did fairly well at the Younge Horse championship as a 5 and 6 YO, and then as a 7 year old he went thru 3 **** riders' barns in less than a year ... It tells you something :eek::eek::eek:
After that, I guess he moved to Germany because, he didn't compete in France anymore.

It tells you (1) Kai Ruder is quite a rider and (2) Marie-Christine Duroy was (is she still competing?) a rare talent.

But heck, that horse is an athlete.

[SevenDogs]

Great Post NeverTime. Totally agree.

Even the most successful careers are built on a handful of big wins. The rest, while perhaps less interesting or fodder for armchair QB's, is the stepping stone to those wins. That's the sport folks. It's a marathon not a sprint.

More than one Olympic caliber rider has pointed out that one day you are on the medal podium and the next day you are laying in the dirt. I've gotta question those that find retiring on course or, god forbid, falling off a huge crisis. It happens. It has always happened and it will continue to happen to the best of us from time to time.

Would we rather see nothing but success? .... yup. Would we love to see the U.S. program thrive? .... you bet, but that isn't going to happen overnight and it is never going to be a perfectly straight uphill climb for any rider from any nation. Can you say that it is about the win and not the journey? .... I guess so, but you sure as heck aren't going to get to the win WITHOUT the journey.

[sisu27]

Great Post NeverTime. Totally agree.

Even the most successful careers are built on a handful of big wins. The rest, while perhaps less interesting or fodder for armchair QB's, is the stepping stone to those wins. That's the sport folks. It's a marathon not a sprint.

More than one Olympic caliber rider has pointed out that one day you are on the medal podium and the next day you are laying in the dirt. I've gotta question those that find retiring on course or, god forbid, falling off a huge crisis. It happens. It has always happened and it will continue to happen to the best of us from time to time.

Would we rather see nothing but success? .... yup. Would we love to see the U.S. program thrive? .... you bet, but that isn't going to happen overnight and it is never going to be a perfectly straight uphill climb for any rider from any nation. Can you say that it is about the win and not the journey? .... I guess so, but you sure as heck aren't going to get to the win WITHOUT the journey.

Well said.

[bean]

Would we love to see the U.S. program thrive? .... you bet, but that isn't going to happen overnight and it is never going to be a perfectly straight uphill climb for any rider from any nation. Can you say that it is about the win and not the journey? .... I guess so, but you sure as heck aren't going to get to the win WITHOUT the journey.


You speak as if eventing is a new sport to the US. The current program and journey has been here for quite some time with very mixed results. Of course there is going to be dry spells in any nation's sporting prowess but there seems to be a serious lack of vision and reality at the highest levels.
The first step in fixing any shortcomings is to actually acknowledge they exist.

[Robby Johnson]

Great Post NeverTime. Totally agree.

Even the most successful careers are built on a handful of big wins. The rest, while perhaps less interesting or fodder for armchair QB's, is the stepping stone to those wins. That's the sport folks. It's a marathon not a sprint.

More than one Olympic caliber rider has pointed out that one day you are on the medal podium and the next day you are laying in the dirt. I've gotta question those that find retiring on course or, god forbid, falling off a huge crisis. It happens. It has always happened and it will continue to happen to the best of us from time to time.

Would we rather see nothing but success? .... yup. Would we love to see the U.S. program thrive? .... you bet, but that isn't going to happen overnight and it is never going to be a perfectly straight uphill climb for any rider from any nation. Can you say that it is about the win and not the journey? .... I guess, but you aren't going to get to the win WITHOUT the journey.

I think you're both right and I definitely appreciate the journey a whole lot more. I wouldn't make such a statement if I wasn't on one myself! ;)

My thought was that team appointments and team placings are built on a series of graded, measurable finishes. You have to have a repertoire of available skills and options - almost like a singer having a range of notes - consistently at the ready to negotiate anything in life, but particularly cross-country riding at any level. Until those are perfected and capable of being employed with comfortable precision, that baseline measurement will be allusive.

And that's fine. It's how we get there. But there also comes a point when the "there" is "here," and "now," and all of the training and journey culminate in an expectation of mastery and performance. That would be a Burghley.

In times past, horse trials served as the avenue for practical learning, with the three-day serving as the test, and applied learning from that experience serving as the evaluation for continued progression.

As demonstrated, the individual who won Burghley - and who I predict will win Kentucky and claim the second Grand Slam - threw the gauntlet down the first time he was in front of the judges and picked it back up atop the podium. To me that's what it's about. When blood is the beverage of choice, it's best obtained with a really sharp set of fangs.

I am in no way shape or form saying I expected the US riders to go to Burghley and come back ranked 1-8. I think they're best left to make those decisions. They are the ones risking their lives and their horses lives. Just that getting to that level, and to that competition - really the apex of the sport - isn't about second guesses or gray areas. If the introspective question was, "Do I have every necessary tool I need to win this competition?" what would the answer be?

[SevenDogs]

Fair enough, Robby but do you ever know for sure if you have all of the tools until you are there? Four star events are pretty few and far between. Even then, you can have a truly ready horse and rider and something unexpected happen -- that's part of the gig. A smart rider retires and returns to fight (and hopefully win) another day. It's just not the catastrophe that some here would have us believe.

Even if you find out that you were wrong and you weren't ready, what do you do? Do you give up or do you take what you learned back home and fill in the gaps?

I think our program has some holes in it (wrong team leadership, first and foremost). But there has been a lot of discussion that our top riders lacked international experience and this trip was a way to try to plug that hole. I find it a bit short sighted to think that our riders were going to go over there and win this year. Hope... maybe, but probably not realistic.

We are in a rebuilding period for the U.S. team and I don't see success as only being defined as being atop the leaderboard. Yes, that is the ultimate goal, but it ain't gonna be instantaneous and I think if we looked at those that are atop the board, it wasn't all roses and success for them along the way.

Everybody loves a winner -- but there can only be one at a time.

[vineyridge]

but you sure as heck aren't going to get to the win WITHOUT the journey.Or the horse or horses. No matter how good a rider a competitor is, s/he can't make to the podium without the horse. Where is Pippa Funnell now? Or Kim Severson? Or Andrew Hoy? The horse and rider have to come together and peak together to have those fangs RJ is talking about.

[magnolia73]

And really- truly.... Luck. A good measure of luck needed out on XC. Who has everything flip just right? Dressage at the right time, XC - not a foot stepped wrong, getting round just right in stadium. You have so little margin for error.

[Robby Johnson]

Mademoiselle, I nearly went into my "Luck Diatribe," but opted out since I am doing something I never do - posting from work! But it is important to me because I want our team to go out fully-prepared for battle and to come in victorious. If that's not the goal, then I want them to achieve whatever their goal is. But selection for team berths doesn't include "Stands great chance with a 20 penalties here and mid-range dressage there."

As far as Pippa and Kim, Andrew, etc., I also agree that it's having the right horse at the right moment. There's a reason why the barrier for entry where success at this level is concerned is set so ridiculously high.

Just to reiterate, I am not armchair quarterbacking by any means. Clearly I possess about one fingernail's worth of comparative background! There is, however, scale to the principle, and that's applicable at all levels and in any type of competition. To achieve pinnacle performance one must perform at the pinnacle.

Good Lord, I really am not channeling Fran Lebowitz or my Mr. Cliche Mmkay? today. I swear!

[SevenDogs]

But selection for team berths doesn't include "Stands great chance with a 20 penalties here and mid-range dressage there."



I see your point -- I think I missed it the first time. I agree that we do have some folks "on the list" that don't stand a chance based upon their historical dressage scores alone. Even if they are the only clean rides out there in the jumping phases, they aren't going to be able to make up enough ground. The fact of the sport today, is that you have to be able to put yourself on the scoreboard with your dressage test to be in contention and I see what you mean about not having all the pieces before you go.

Unfortunately, this is where our lack of a pipeline shows and why I think it is important to be "expanding" our circle. Unfortunately, team leadership has a rather narrow viewpoint when it comes to riders to be considered for international competition development. Further I'm not sure how effective our training sessions really are in preparing riders for international competition. Seems more like the riders who are experiencing success are doing it on their own, which is great -- kudos to them but you would think with the salary being paid to our current coach, effective instructional programs that actually bring top riders along would be included.

[Bensmom]

Hmm -- I can't comment much as I have not yet watched the videos, though I have had a great chat about it with Someone Who Was There (and, btw, that made my day!). I have been a big fan of Mandiba for a while, and I think that Max's blog post does a good job of showing why he was perhaps appearing to be not at the top of his game.

I will highjack briefly to answer, at least to the best of my knowledge, the poster's question above about Hugh. From what I remember reading most recently, he is coming back from his injury well and making good progress returning to work. I lOVE Hugh. :yes: I fell for him when he was a baby and I met him right after he was imported. He is adorable and I hope to see him back on the scene. :)

[magnolia73]

I do think luck comes into play only when prepared for the task. I would think your Top 10 are all equally prepared for the party...and I do believe, luck seperates 1st and 10th to some degree.

Luck is not going to get my ass over the first jump.

I do think the will to win is huge. McLain Ward= will to win. I look at how clever he is- can I cut over that jump in the jump off? Looking for the edge to win. We don't always like those types though. In the closeness of the top 10, that will can trump luck.

As a culture in the US eventers never seem very concerned about winning. There is a wonderful attitude of "For the horse" and personal bests and all sorts of lovely sentiment. You don't get the crazy pony moms pushing for the year end title. Driven people- for whom it is obvious that acheivement is slightly more important are somewhat villified (Laine Ashker comes to mind). It might be what keeps us from pushing through to a win. The sport seems to attract a less competitive mindset.

It's funny - you rarely here eventers say "Oh yeah, I won at FENCE last week". You hear- oh- clean XC and great dressage ride. Yet HJ? My trainer- Judy got 2 3rds and a 5th. Sally was reserve. There are real rivalries even at low levels (healthy rivalries!).

LOL, Maybe the team needs to go to Pony Finals and hire a rabid pony mom.

[SevenDogs]

Magnolia -- I think you have a good point about luck playing a role in those that are truly in contention.

Hmmm.... kind of interesting that you held up McLain Ward as an example, though. I lost all respect for him several years ago when he was brought up on horse abuse charges when they found sharps in his jumping boots. I believe he claimed he knew nothing about it and his "groom must have put them there". ... sure... I believe that... really... I do!

Yup, I would rather be all about the horse and not all about the win if that's all we have to look up to. I doubt seriously many eventers want to be like hunters or we would compete there with the crazy pony moms. Many of us are here to avoid that!

[fordtraktor]

It's funny - you rarely here eventers say "Oh yeah, I won at FENCE last week". You hear- oh- clean XC and great dressage ride. Yet HJ? My trainer- Judy got 2 3rds and a 5th. Sally was reserve. There are real rivalries even at low levels (healthy rivalries!).

LOL, Maybe the team needs to go to Pony Finals and hire a rabid pony mom.

I get the sentiment, but from a jumper rider perspective I can assure you there is plenty of this attitude while we are developing our green horses. We don't "go for broke" until the horse is pretty confirmed at getting around confidently at a new height.

I think one difference is that there's a grand prix every weekend, but very few **** events. A jumper can get confident enough over the course of a winter circuit to go from starting out in a division to going for a good jump-off time (and can do so with a reasonable amount of wear and tear). **** horses can feasibly do only a couple of major events a season -- many fewer opportunities to get the seasoning they require to be top competitors if they have clay feet in any area.

[JER]

Unfortunately, this is where our lack of a pipeline shows and why I think it is important to be "expanding" our circle. Unfortunately, team leadership has a rather narrow viewpoint when it comes to riders to be considered for international competition development.

This is so true.

[GotSpots]

I disagree: I think this Burghley was EXACTLY about the pipeline - of the US riders there, quite a few them fall into the group of riders who had shown success at home, either by jumping well around Rolex or in other top events, who have been knocking on the door of breaking into the big league. Sending them to Burghley, with all of the atmosphere and tension and enormity of those fences is exactly the kind of experience and seasoning that I'd want to see, particularly when we're in an off-year in terms of Olympics and WEG. I was thrilled to see the grant list considered a number of riders with nice horses who are trying to figure out if they can truly contribute to a team down the road - what a way to get these folks the kind of experience and exposure that will contribute to Robby's go-to-win position.

I don't think this year's Burghley was about going to win: I think it was about seasoning and mileage for riders and horses. Would it have been nice to win or be in the top 3/5/10? Absolutely. Hands down, you can bet that all of those riders are kicking themselves that they weren't. But I don't count it a failure - these are young horses and riders for the most part, and I suspect they'll be back with a vengeance.

[denny]

Badminton and Burghley are like Yankee Stadium, filled with ghosts of legends past.

For European kids, especially English kids, it`s slightly in the cards. But for our kids, unless there`s a ton of money behind them, it`s another galaxy, far, far away.

So we need to keep sending the young ones over there, not just our oldies but goodies.

We desperately need a youth movement in the USEF.

[vineyridge]

Since George Morris has been chef of the Jumpers, they have been using young riders on Nations Cup teams. THEY are developing the next generation. But, as someone has mentioned, there are far more opportunities for young jumper riders to compete at high levels in North America than for eventers.

[fernie fox]

I don't see it as a disaster either,not by a long way.

3 in the top 14 is not to be sniffed at.

[fernie fox]

Years ago we used to get quite a few,young showjumpers come over without their horses and stay with BNJ to learn the ropes.

Maybe a few of the young event riders should give that route a chance.

There are plenty of eventing barns over there that would take them I'm sure.

Just not sure how the US kids would do in a working student situation.

It is very,very hard work,but it would give them soo much experience.

[riderboy]

Or the horse or horses. No matter how good a rider a competitor is, s/he can't make to the podium without the horse. Where is Pippa Funnell now? Or Kim Severson? Or Andrew Hoy? The horse and rider have to come together and peak together to have those fangs RJ is talking about.Or Mark Todd? Amen, where are the horses would be my question. I think it is a real testament to a riders ability to get out there on a horse who perhaps does not have the talent and still give it a good go.

[boppin along]

Mandiba- it's like any sport, just because a kid is a super star in college dosen't mean he'll be able to cut it in the NBA.
Mandiba seems to be a solid **, sometimes *** but is simply not the **** level that is evidently out there competeing on these ridiculous **** courses.
Why not let him shine as that... so he dosen't get ruined, mentally or worse yet,
physically?
I feel for Karen that he is her "go to" horse at the moment but it is pretty obvious he just does not have "it" to safely cut it.

[jumpfan]

Burghley was not a success for the US equipe. But I am sure that the US team (WEG) in 2012 will consits of the riders competing in Burghley this year.

We know, for example Karen O´Connor is a brilliant rider as well as a tenacious and dauntless competitor.
I am convinced Karen will show her fighting spirit and her riding excellence at the Five Point horse trials this weekend and I am also convinced that Mandiba will be improved.

Big hug for Karen. The true fans are with you
Good luck

[Carol Ames]

Thank you, for your consideration:yes:;)
after all, these people are human, too,:yes: not just super riders:no:
My only comments on Karen's ride are that she must be going through something horrible right now, emotionally. And even the best of the best have their bad days when you can't simply "push it aside and just ride", as my old trainer used to say. I know after going through what she is, there isn't much of ANYTHING I would be doing well. http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4358955)

[Carol Ames]

didn't Kim ?Mandiba- it's like any sport, just because a kid is a super star in college dosen't mean he'll be able to cut it in the NBA.
Mandiba seems to be a solid **, sometimes *** but is simply not the **** level that is evidently out there competeing on these ridiculous **** courses.
Why not let him shine as that... so he doesn't get ruined, mentally or worse yet,physically?. Didn't Kim S.:confused:say this about one of her horses at Rolex a few years ago

I feel for

[Carol Ames]

iT's difficult to "attack fences; in Jimmys' old "put your hands down on the horses' neck and just put the horse between your leg and the fence :cool:style" and here his comments about lack of scteplechase , are pertinent; it's dificullt to do that at fences like the ones being designed now; I supose the dresage called for now is also culpable:yes:.

[Carol Ames]

iT's difficult to "attack fences; in Jimmys' old "put your hands down on the horses' neck and just put the horse between your leg and the fence :cool:style" and here his comments about lack of steeplechase , are pertinent; it's difficult to do that at fences like the ones being designed now; I suppose the dressage called for now is also culpable:yes:.

[Carol Ames]

They will come home , do their "homework:winkgrin: and come out ready to go on:yes:; no one got hurt, they are all coming home with more mileage against the BNRs
Burghley was not a success for the US equipe. But I am sure that the US team (WEG) in 2012 will consist of the riders competing in Burghley this year.

We know, for example Karen O´Connor is a brilliant rider as well as a tenacious and dauntless competitor.
I am convinced Karen will show her fighting spirit and her riding excellence at the Five Point horse trials this weekend and I am also convinced that Mandiba will be improved.

[Equibrit]

What is not available here is the depth of talent in riding and instruction that is available and coming out from behind trees in the UK. It starts at a very early age too. What makes tough competitors is tough competition.

[Shrapnel]

So I just watched the video of Karen and Mandiba and 2 things are certain...

The horse is really lacking confidence. And, he looks like a show jumper to me. Looked the same at the Olympics last year.

[eventrider]

Karen broke her scapula on Thursday here at 5-points falling off her dirt bike. So Will Coleman and Hannah Burnett are riding her horses here. I do not know how long a broken scapula takes to heal, but I wish her a speedy recovery.

In regards to the horses at Burghley, my only comment is that the European horses seemed to outshine anything we have here, minus a few. They were holding their 4 and 5 yr old YEH championships there and every one of those horses made most of the upper level horses I see here in the US look like Pony Club mounts. They were also holding a pony championship event and every one of those ponies looked like little versions of their upper level horses. I was amazed and blown away by the quality of the horses just here at this one venue.

[cheval80]

I cannot speak for other countries, but in the past, in the US, part of what previous coaches did was to match up eager, deep pocketed owners with riders and help to sort out which riders would do better with which horses. This at the deep end of the spectrum was almost dictatorial at one point, but it times change, and the concept of doing it changed as well. The coach still helps match up horses with riders ***I think*** but not sure it's done as much to our advantage as it could be. Bottom line is still, comes back around to, money, the management of it, and the allocation of it in proper directions.

LisaB is right, the riders don't have someone at their head to sort of take lessons from, they get help from different people. But that's ok as long as the Coach, at the head of the ship, has all on same page. Role of coach or chef is a difficult one and few have done it spectactularly. I believe, altho I am not privy to special knowledge, Denny can chime in here - that truly top coaches in eventing can be counted on one hand. We are probably not the only country with coach trouble.

The results at Burghley are actually pretty positive, if you look at it from a country standpoint. The British, the Aussies, the US, and other countries here and there in the standings. Basically we ended in a bronze medal position, and I think that is fairly positive for our riders. I am not ready to throw in the towel on the WEG prospects yet!

I agree, I think we still have a decent chance of doing well at the WEG!

[retreadeventer]

...
In regards to the horses at Burghley, my only comment is that the European horses seemed to outshine anything we have here, minus a few. They were holding their 4 and 5 yr old YEH championships there and every one of those horses made most of the upper level horses I see here in the US look like Pony Club mounts. They were also holding a pony championship event and every one of those ponies looked like little versions of their upper level horses. I was amazed and blown away by the quality of the horses just here at this one venue.

If you go to Dressage at Devon and watch the US young horse dressage championships for 4, 5 and 6 yo's you will see THE SAME THING. They are awesome young AMERICAN horses that blow away the average 4, 5 and 6yo shown in a regular dressage show. (Several have even held their own in Europe!)

Try telling people on THIS board you have to be riding and training the 2 and 3yo's in order to have them ready for these Young Horse championships at 4 and 5yo - like they do in Europe - and listen to the armchair COTH trainers whine about riding and training them too early! (rolling eyes)

[LLDM]

If you go to Dressage at Devon and watch the US young horse dressage championships for 4, 5 and 6 yo's you will see THE SAME THING. They are awesome young AMERICAN horses that blow away the average 4, 5 and 6yo shown in a regular dressage show. (Several have even held their own in Europe!)

Try telling people on THIS board you have to be riding and training the 2 and 3yo's in order to have them ready for these Young Horse championships at 4 and 5yo - like they do in Europe - and listen to the armchair COTH trainers whine about riding and training them too early! (rolling eyes)

The problem is that we DON'T ride and train young horses like they do in Europe. We have very few people in this country who have the knowledge and patience to start world class horses as youngsters. There is quite an art to working with 2 and 3 year-olds.

So many good riders, owners and breeders will simply wait until they are 4 and start them "American Style" - like they are completely, or almost completely, physically mature.

Admittedly, we are not generally set up in this country to do 2 and 3 year-olds well. We don't have the training programs that will do the truly structured ground work, the very light backing and the slow body and mind work that requires 3-4 day a week schedules for 2 or 3 months at a time with 4 to 5 month "grow up" breaks in between.

But that's how they do it in Europe without compromising joints over the long term. And even then, it doesn't always work.

Add that to the inflated expectations this country has of any horse taken out in public - so riders, owner and breeders are reluctant to show any horse that hasn't been "perfected" at home first. Heaven help you if your young horse as a temper tantrum or a melt down in public - which normal young horses are prone to do. Thus these youngsters are often over trained early to avoid embarrassment.

That and most BNTs are too busy to do young horses justice and most non BNTs don't have the education, patience, depth. Not so much their fault as our lack of coordinated education systems that the Europeans DO have. The German systems for educating both young horses and young riders put our lack of same to shame. And it shows. Often. And Early. LOL!

They often put talented young riders on talented young horses. But they are supervised closely by older veterans who have mostly retired from competition (since they have major depth) and have the TIME to spend on young talent.

OOPS! Sorry for the ramble...

SCFarm

[nomeolvides]

Try telling people on THIS board you have to be riding and training the 2 and 3yo's in order to have them ready for these Young Horse championships at 4 and 5yo - like they do in Europe - and listen to the armchair COTH trainers whine about riding and training them too early! (rolling eyes)
You don't have to start them at 2 to get them ready for things like Burghley Young Event Horse. Loads of people in Britain are against riding at 2.
Here are the guidelines for BYEH:
http://www.burghley-horse.co.uk/YEH/guidelines.htm

[eventrider]

Well said Retreadeventer and SCFarm. I agree although there are some people who do know how to start a young horse well and keep them sound and happy here. I just don't know too many of them. The quality of horses over there was astounding though, and there were plenty that were naughty and misbehaving!

[PhoenixFarm]

The problem is that we DON'T ride and train young horses like they do in Europe. We have very few people in this country who have the knowledge and patience to start world class horses as youngsters. There is quite an art to working with 2 and 3 year-olds.

So many good riders, owners and breeders will simply wait until they are 4 and start them "American Style" - like they are completely, or almost completely, physically mature.

Admittedly, we are not generally set up in this country to do 2 and 3 year-olds well. We don't have the training programs that will do the truly structured ground work, the very light backing and the slow body and mind work that requires 3-4 day a week schedules for 2 or 3 months at a time with 4 to 5 month "grow up" breaks in between.

But that's how they do it in Europe without compromising joints over the long term. And even then, it doesn't always work.

Add that to the inflated expectations this country has of any horse taken out in public - so riders, owner and breeders are reluctant to show any horse that hasn't been "perfected" at home first. Heaven help you if your young horse as a temper tantrum or a melt down in public - which normal young horses are prone to do. Thus these youngsters are often over trained early to avoid embarrassment.

That and most BNTs are too busy to do young horses justice and most non BNTs don't have the education, patience, depth. Not so much their fault as our lack of coordinated education systems that the Europeans DO have. The German systems for educating both young horses and young riders put our lack of same to shame. And it shows. Often. And Early. LOL!

They often put talented young riders on talented young horses. But they are supervised closely by older veterans who have mostly retired from competition (since they have major depth) and have the TIME to spend on young talent.

OOPS! Sorry for the ramble...

SCFarm

I largely agree with everything you've said here, but I'm going to add to it that there is an issue on the consumer side as well--too many people don't understand the value of starting a youngster correctly. We're the land of do it yourselfers, and Parelli tapes that will fix any problem for $119.99, etc.

We offer a comprehensive program for starting youngsters, including the type of ground work, and long slow work you discuss here--with a strong emphasis on hacking for fitness and learning to go across the countryside. We offer package deals and discounts which make it cheaper than our regular "full training" package by several hundred dollars a month. We encourage owner participation, and if you want to come and be the first one up, or hold the longeline in your hands, great, come every day and we'll show you what we do. It's not alchemy.

After all our years of reading here, and talking with other pros, we expected to be inundated with youngsters to start. You know what? Hasn't happened. We do a handful a year. At best. And we do our own, all of which have been sold and are successfully competing with their junior or amateur owners.

You know the kind of responses I hear? "Why do I have pay so much for the ground work? Anyone can teach a horse to lunge/longe line/pony/crosstie/get a bath/you name any lifeskill a well broke horse has." "Why would I pay for ponying? I mean you're actually riding a different horse?" "I'm going to do all the ground work and then bring him to you to be backed . . ." (which almost in every case ends up not happening because the horse they bring me isn't ready to be backed, physically or mentally, and people get offended when you tell them that, no matter how gently.) I've done everything from a pair of 10 hand ponies (not kidding) to very fancy event and dressage prospects, to a really adorable little arab filly.

And it's not just us. I have a friend who got hired by a pretty BN breeder/trainer/judge to start her babies. His first day he was told she would pay for exactly two longing sessions, and then he had to either get on, or longe them and do groundwork for free, because she was "paying him to ride." Should I mention these were nearly unhandled two year olds that had been turned out in a herd as weanlings and not touched again except for vet work. Yet he was expected to old fashioned buck them out and stick on frightened, uncoordinated, unhandled youngsters because the ground work simply isn't valued.

There is absolutely a quiet, non-pounding, correct way to start youngsters and it's not some deep dark secret. But frankly, much of this country doesn't value it. Period. People that have $$$ would rather send the baby to a big name's barn, even if that venue isn't well-suited to unbroke horses, and people who bought a baby because it's "cheaper" don't value a professional's skill enough to pay for it. It's the same reason that selling fancy youngsters in this country is very tough. Once their 4 or 5 and have a strong show record, they sell great (but can you really call them babies once they've spent a year competing?), but as 3 and 4 year olds with no record yet, or god help you a really nice two year old or yearling? Forget it. Those horses don't exist on most people's radar.

We'll keep happily working with the babies we do get, but we've worked on plumping up other aspects of our business, because unlike Europe where "young horse trainer" is a valued and important title, here, it's a footnote.

[NeverTime]

With the exception of Amy Tryon, the remaining American rides have been posted on Burghley.tv!

[Sharon]

Anyone get the Temptress video to work?

I just love Rosie Thomas' ride on the lovely chestnut.

[Regal Grace]

With the exception of Amy Tryon, the remaining American rides have been posted on Burghley.tv!

I was starting to think they would never post the videos. Thanks for the heads up : )

[nomeolvides]

I just love Rosie Thomas' ride on the lovely chestnut.
They are just amazing- their trailblazing ride last year was phenomenal.

[Gry2Yng]

I largely agree with everything you've said here, but I'm going to add to it that there is an issue on the consumer side as well--too many people don't understand the value of starting a youngster correctly. We're the land of do it yourselfers, and Parelli tapes that will fix any problem for $119.99, etc.

We offer a comprehensive program for starting youngsters, including the type of ground work, and long slow work you discuss here--with a strong emphasis on hacking for fitness and learning to go across the countryside. We offer package deals and discounts which make it cheaper than our regular "full training" package by several hundred dollars a month. We encourage owner participation, and if you want to come and be the first one up, or hold the longeline in your hands, great, come every day and we'll show you what we do. It's not alchemy.

After all our years of reading here, and talking with other pros, we expected to be inundated with youngsters to start. You know what? Hasn't happened. We do a handful a year. At best. And we do our own, all of which have been sold and are successfully competing with their junior or amateur owners.

You know the kind of responses I hear? "Why do I have pay so much for the ground work? Anyone can teach a horse to lunge/longe line/pony/crosstie/get a bath/you name any lifeskill a well broke horse has." "Why would I pay for ponying? I mean you're actually riding a different horse?" "I'm going to do all the ground work and then bring him to you to be backed . . ." (which almost in every case ends up not happening because the horse they bring me isn't ready to be backed, physically or mentally, and people get offended when you tell them that, no matter how gently.) I've done everything from a pair of 10 hand ponies (not kidding) to very fancy event and dressage prospects, to a really adorable little arab filly.

And it's not just us. I have a friend who got hired by a pretty BN breeder/trainer/judge to start her babies. His first day he was told she would pay for exactly two longing sessions, and then he had to either get on, or longe them and do groundwork for free, because she was "paying him to ride." Should I mention these were nearly unhandled two year olds that had been turned out in a herd as weanlings and not touched again except for vet work. Yet he was expected to old fashioned buck them out and stick on frightened, uncoordinated, unhandled youngsters because the ground work simply isn't valued.

There is absolutely a quiet, non-pounding, correct way to start youngsters and it's not some deep dark secret. But frankly, much of this country doesn't value it. Period. People that have $$$ would rather send the baby to a big name's barn, even if that venue isn't well-suited to unbroke horses, and people who bought a baby because it's "cheaper" don't value a professional's skill enough to pay for it. It's the same reason that selling fancy youngsters in this country is very tough. Once their 4 or 5 and have a strong show record, they sell great (but can you really call them babies once they've spent a year competing?), but as 3 and 4 year olds with no record yet, or god help you a really nice two year old or yearling? Forget it. Those horses don't exist on most people's radar.

We'll keep happily working with the babies we do get, but we've worked on plumping up other aspects of our business, because unlike Europe where "young horse trainer" is a valued and important title, here, it's a footnote.

Just wanted to thank both you and SCFarm for your posts. I agree with the things you have said. Honestly, I love doing what you do Heather, wish I had more time to do it. (Maybe soon.) I have been very lucky to have access to a great young horse "cowboy". My babies have been ponyed and long lined, etc. I think the ponying makes a huge difference in a horse's confidence and lowers their anxiety.

I have a just turned 4 yo right now and I will admit to being reluctant to take him to his first horse trial. He is very fancy and I don't want a big 20 on his record. :no: And he isn't even for sale. :lol: I guess I need to give myself an attitude adjustment there.

[LLDM]

Gry2Yng - It is such a common problem! I can't for the life of me understand where these inflated expectations for young horses came from! I am beginning to think it IS the root of all our problems in eventing. IMO, refusals should always follow the RIDER not the horse. A good horse will refuse to do the impossible, hence saving themselves and their riders. Horses who have "never refused a fence" make me wary. I worry they might be stupid!

PF - I feel your pain, really I do. That we have created or allowed a culture in eventing (and the other disciplines as well) that refuses to elevate those who teach and train for the long term goals (health, soundness, sanity and maximum athletic performance over the long haul), is doomed to suffer. I think we are in that suffering now.

Personally, I really don't blame the owners and breeders. They are only doing what they have learned from the current state of our industry and from those individuals who have enormous sway over it. If our leaders don't value and reward these things - or give them any attention whatsoever, most people can only assume these things are unimportant.

And proper training, in our current joke of a system is ridiculously expensive. It quick puts the cost of producing great young prospects far outside the current market value. Now, if you had half a dozen well prepared and educated students out from the nearby college working on their practicums and doing everything from mucking your stalls to groundwork for young horses - THEN it would (or might) make financial sense for YOU and the OWNERS and BREEDERS.

If our leaders then supported the idea that these very well started young horses were indeed more likely to come along better and last longer - the costs of raising and training these horses might allow people to turn a small profit.

This whole scenario is also true for YOUNG RIDERS! This IS what Europe does that we do not.

But nothing will ever change if the "top" of the sport goes on with business as usual.

SCFarm

[Carol Ames]

Just wanted to thank both you and SCFarm for your posts. I agree with the things you have said. Honestly, I love doing what you do Heather, wish I had more time to do it. (Maybe soon.) I have been very lucky to have access to a great young horse "cowboy". My babies have been ponyed and long lined, etc. I think the ponying makes a huge difference in a horse's confidence and lowers their anxiety.

I have a just turned 4 yo right now and I will admit to being reluctant to take him to his first horse trial. He is very fancy and I don't want a big 20 on his record. :no: And he isn't even for sale. :lol: I guess I need to give myself an attitude adjustment there.


Amazingly, or maybe not:no:, I had the same experiences;:sadsmile: and then they want you to "fix their problems ":eek: in ONE QUICK, inexpensive session:mad:

[Carol Ames]

because unlike Europe where "young horse trainer" is a valued and important title, here, it's a footnote.

[Carol Ames]

And for all the miserable people on the Chronicle chat room - the stirrups are adjustable, you try and ride that track - be nice, we already feel really bad, don't make us feel worse. Cheer us on and be a part of something great.

Home to regroup - Home for more runs - Home to let Karen's soul heal from loosing her papa - Home for more gallops - Home for hugs from friends - Home to kick on again -

[Carol Ames]

And for all the miserable people on the Chronicle chat room - the stirrups are adjustable, you try and ride that track - be nice, we already feel really bad, don't make us feel worse. Cheer us on and be a part of something great.

Home to regroup - Home for more runs - Home to let Karen's soul heal from loosing her papa - Home for more gallops - Home for hugs from friends - Home to kick on again -

[Carol Ames]

Col. Lundqiouist had a favorite saying when people became impatient themselves/their horses:no::mad: Things take time! the from Allisons' blog:;) I will chalk it up for experience. Sorry Arthur!!!!
Being here at Blenheim was the best thing I could have done after last week. My horse was all class and made easy work of a really tough course. I am ready to trump Olliver Townend at Rolex next year!!!!