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OneFineMess
Sep. 5, 2009, 06:48 PM
I fell in love with a 13.2 hh pony. He is morgan x (quarter horse x arab). He is hot off your legs and can do a bit of travers/shouler-in/half pass already after one year under saddle. Had an extended trot with more suspension than my dutch/tb gelding!

If I was to buy him it would be as a resale project. Is there a market for a FEI pony? I am 5'3 or 4, 120lbs and didnt feel like I was too big on him.

tempichange
Sep. 5, 2009, 07:03 PM
Depends on a few things. First would be his training, how well/far it is and the second would be the scores.

There is a market, at the moment, it's leaning towards kids, but there is a definite adult market there if the pony shows and proves talent.

YankeeLawyer
Sep. 5, 2009, 07:09 PM
A pony that size needs to be very rideable by kids to be marketable. I would not buy one that small that is an off-breed as a resale project. I think the market is too limited. Are you sure he is only 13.2? Because I am 5'5 and 105 and am way too tall for a medium pony.

Sakura
Sep. 5, 2009, 07:47 PM
A pony that size needs to be very rideable by kids to be marketable. I would not buy one that small that is an off-breed as a resale project. I think the market is too limited. Are you sure he is only 13.2? Because I am 5'5 and 105 and am way too tall for a medium pony.

I'm 5'5" 128# and look fine on my 13.3-14 hh Arabian (Polish/Crabbet)... granted he is built like a tank, and I would wager the little Morgan/Arab/QH the OP mentioned would be a stoutly built sort as well.

Cielo Azure
Sep. 5, 2009, 09:13 PM
But that market really isn't there (at least in the South East) for a small horse or large pony. We had a great, lightly built, registered, 14.1 hand Morgan, schooling at a strong level 2 that my son rode and outgrew. Very well put together, nice, five years old and just a dream horse for a child. We couldn't sell her for for dressage -even with two years with an exceptional dressage teacher working with her and my son. Even when we went to $1000. and I was advertising her, no one even called. We finally just pulled her off the market, because we were getting to the low end of the market where buyers are kind of substandard around here. We had a lot more interest in her as a driving horse than as a dressage prospect.

DreamsOfGP
Sep. 5, 2009, 10:10 PM
I'd have to agree with everyone that the market is not there for strictly dressage ponies. (I'd say dressage with some eventing experience is marketable though.) Absolutely buy and work with this pony if you want to do it for the fun and are okay with sitting on him for a (long) while. I have a 13.3 Welsh. I'm 5'5 and fit him fine. (Shown him a lot and never heard comments otherrwise. Judges usually comment on what a wonderful team we are! I know he handles my size fine by how he moves.) I had him on the market for a year and a half with only 1 inquiry. He's very strong first level, starting second. I think anything under 14 hands is a really tough sell unless it is very kid broke. I've recently decided to stop wasting money on advertising. If someoen comes along, great. Otherwise, I have a blast riding him and will keep him. I also had a 14.2 hand British Riding Pony that I showed third level. He was still a tough sell, but I think more because he had quite a spook in him. I did get a lot more inquiries about him though and many more people to try him out.

exvet
Sep. 5, 2009, 11:20 PM
Ditto regarding the market on dressage ponies - just not a huge one around here. There are a few showing in this area but like what everyone else has said, just not a huge following for those under 14 hands. I was given one who is 13 hands because he's not exactly kid friendly (let alone adult friendly). I ride them for my own interests/goals. I have received much more interest in my guys who are closer to 15 hands than those under 14 hands in terms of resale.

Sakura
Sep. 5, 2009, 11:29 PM
Why does it always seem that we are decades behind on this side of the pond? Dressage ponies seem to be much more appreciated in Europe then here... :sigh:.

Look at all this pony candy... http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.eurodressage.com/images/2006/06saumur/dontworry-1235.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2006/06saumur/photos.html&usg=__swgAItMJU8ukpWrHwaCpISjAH0k=&h=320&w=250&sz=41&hl=en&start=6&um=1&tbnid=TICl_j21Kr__dM:&tbnh=118&tbnw=92&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddressage%2Bponies%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1 B3GGGL_enUS211US211%26sa%3DX%26um%3D1

Love this guy... Donnerblitz (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.eurodressage.com/images/2006/06saumur/donnerblitz-1348.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2007/mar_gbr_trials.html&usg=__Goicp2A9d1WquJYPch_LoxD8NEQ=&h=320&w=250&sz=40&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=WTPmeX_ickKz6M:&tbnh=118&tbnw=92&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDonnerblitz%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1B3GGGL _enUS211US211%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1)

YankeeLawyer
Sep. 6, 2009, 01:48 AM
Why does it always seem that we are decades behind on this side of the pond? Dressage ponies seem to be much more appreciated in Europe then here... :sigh:.

The top dressage ponies tend to be on the tall side. In fact, there was a big scandal a few years ago involving cheating on heights - people were showing honies in the FEI pony classes, so they cracked down on the measuring.

In addition, in Europe, even taller riders ride ponies - it is common to see teens on ponies long past when they would be considered outgrown in this country. I think that accounts for part of the reason the market for ponies is stronger.

Ambrey
Sep. 6, 2009, 02:02 AM
Kids over here don't tend to do dressage- they all want to jump. At least at my barn the h/j barns are full of kids, but besides my daughter there are only a couple of others in regular dressage training.

exvet
Sep. 6, 2009, 02:46 AM
Why does it always seem that we are decades behind on this side of the pond? Dressage ponies seem to be much more appreciated in Europe then here... .

Look at all this pony candy... http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...a%3DX%26um%3D1

Love this guy... Donnerblitz


Yup He's sure cute....................

Hey if you look hard enough we do have a few over here..........dressage ponies I mean..............and not lookin' all that different :winkgrin:

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o253/ldarling_photos/2009/DSC_0064.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o253/ldarling_photos/August%202009/2009-08-021324.jpg

OK so I'm not as cute or talented as the kid riding the German Riding Pony and my pony isn't as far as long in his training (but my guys is also 6 years younger) but you know that registry got that color from somewhere..............and looking at that pony's pedigree. Not all that different from mine, especially the top line :eek:

Ambrey you can add my kid (one of two) to the "just" dressage mix. My son, well, we're still working on him. Jumping and competitve trail seems to hold more excitement for him (and more girls :eek:).

tempichange
Sep. 6, 2009, 10:13 AM
OK so I'm not as cute or talented as the kid riding the German Riding Pony and my pony isn't as far as long in his training (but my guys is also 6 years younger) but you know that registry got that color from somewhere..............and looking at that pony's pedigree. Not all that different from mine, especially the top line :eek:

Ambrey you can add my kid (one of two) to the "just" dressage mix. My son, well, we're still working on him. Jumping and competitve trail seems to hold more excitement for him (and more girls :eek:).

psh Exvet, who needs cute?

Most GRP's I find have a ton of Welsh B and D crosses in there. Also not far off from my girl:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v401/tempichange/Sinari%20Poulin%20Clinic%2008/P1030907.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v401/tempichange/Sinari%20Poulin%20Clinic%2008/P1030849.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v401/tempichange/Sinari%20Poulin%20Clinic%2008/P1030929.jpg

Gotta love my facial expressions :D I hate not having my sunglasses!

exvet
Sep. 6, 2009, 10:34 AM
Most GRP's I find have a ton of Welsh B and D crosses in there. Also not far off from my girl:

Yup. This gal of mine is by Kurbaum's Chief, a section D welsh cob who also is approved, registered and branded GRP. Such a dilemma on what to call her on the entry forms :winkgrin:


http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o253/ldarling_photos/Flagstaff/DSC_0405.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o253/ldarling_photos/Flagstaff/DSC_0608.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o253/ldarling_photos/Flagstaff/DSC_0613.jpg

As for who needs cute? Well those of us considered to be of "old bag" status :D

tempichange
Sep. 6, 2009, 10:37 AM
Most GRP's I find have a ton of Welsh B and D crosses in there. Also not far off from my girl:

Yup. This gal of mine is by Kurbaum's Chief, a section D welsh cob who also is approved, registered and branded GRP. Such a dilemma on what to call her on the entry forms :winkgrin:


http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o253/ldarling_photos/Flagstaff/DSC_0405.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o253/ldarling_photos/Flagstaff/DSC_0608.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o253/ldarling_photos/Flagstaff/DSC_0613.jpg

As for who needs cute? Well those of us considered to be of "old bag" status :D

I'll see your old bag status, and raise you comeupin' upstartin' yungin!

Call her whatever high point breed ribbons are offered ;) Nine times out of ten the GRP's have the better stuff and the welsh can't even offer a neck sash, let alone a mention in the Review.

exvet
Sep. 6, 2009, 10:51 AM
Call her whatever high point breed ribbons are offered Nine times out of ten the GRP's have the better stuff and the welsh can't even offer a neck sash, let alone a mention in the Review.

Yeah. The WPCSA won't register her even though I managed to track down a copy of her Canadian registration papers. Long story but the hoops to jump through to prove her pedigree especially in the day of DNA testing would be for what? Hee, hee, hee, hee.......unless she were a jumping machine (which she is but I'm not competing her that way) out there on the circuit hob nobbin' with the likes of (the you know who's) there is no point to go to the expense.

No I just list her as half welsh cob and let everyone who asks know the real deal. Even if I had the wherewithal to get her approved with "some" registry she's going to be put to my welsh cob stallion so it's all the same in the end. As long as the market for dressage ponies stays as it is, I'll continue as planned :winkgrin:

tempichange
Sep. 6, 2009, 11:03 AM
Yeah. The WPCSA won't register her even though I managed to track down a copy of her Canadian registration papers. Long story but the hoops to jump through to prove her pedigree especially in the day of DNA testing would be for what? Hee, hee, hee, hee.......unless she were a jumping machine (which she is but I'm not competing her that way) out there on the circuit hob nobbin' with the likes of (the you know who's) there is no point to go to the expense.

No I just list her as half welsh cob and let everyone who asks know the real deal. Even if I had the wherewithal to get her approved with "some" registry she's going to be put to my welsh cob stallion so it's all the same in the end. As long as the market for dressage ponies stays as it is, I'll continue as planned :winkgrin:

I sympathize. I lost Sinari's papers in a barn fire over a year ago (not her barn, just a separate shed where I keep the majority of my horsey paperwork). I explained the situation to the office and they want 60 bucks to re-issue (even after I furnished copies to prove). Whereas the Arab people only want... 30.

I'll reissue them when I'm good and ready.

Did you catch the new 'Share the welsh' program, which you too can be a member for, at a minimum of 25 bucks and get a keychain!

exvet
Sep. 6, 2009, 11:20 AM
Did you catch the new 'Share the welsh' program, which you too can be a member for, at a minimum of 25 bucks and get a keychain!

Sorry to the OP for hijacking the thread ........................but hee, hee, hee, hee, hee....yes I received the invitation and like all the others it went straight in to the recycling bin.

I think the stagnant, despite constant claims of increasing interest for smaller mounts, dressage pony market is partially due to the apathy of many of the pony breed organizations. So many have "found their niche" and if there are individuals of that breed who excel or succeed in dressage you hear more about it from other mags, venues, outlets than kudos or adverts from that breed organization. Of course in their defense many of the registries are quite small and don't have the budget; but, I hear this tale so much from the WPCSA but there seems to be no end of adverts of the breed in "other" discipline focus pieces including the USEF's mag.

Oh well I know I"m preaching to the choir. Here is how ironic it is. The former owner of my buckskin fellow who is pictured called to get an update yesterday 'cause she heard he had gone to a show. He has his issues and baggage and we're still working on his realiability in order to take him to a recognized show. She would like to see it happen because she knows he has the talent. Well she informs me that NOW there is a welsh cob who's been competing at PSG and Intermediare and will be going to Devon. She asks me, "Isn't it great and now you know someone's paved the way so Morgan can do it too." I informed her that my own welsh cob gelding has already been competing at PSG but I don't have the "team" to put it together and get all the announcements out. I think it's great what Cardi has done and all the focus he draws to the breed but too many have forgotten all those that came before him and there were several. And if you ask yourself why? Mainly because there was no backing, hoop la and many opportunities lost to showcasing the breed as it should have been back in the day. If the owners didn't pay to bring the attention to themselves (or their ponies) it never happened. I bet though there are several even "non hunter pony" people who easily recognize the names of those welsh who graced that venue with any success.

OK thread back on track.....................

Market for small to medium size dressage ponies - not really existent. Large dressage ponies - a bit more interest but still not what it could be.

tempichange
Sep. 6, 2009, 11:42 AM
Yes OP sorry for 'jacking the thread.

Ditto on all the above.

Dune
Sep. 6, 2009, 12:02 PM
Kids over here don't tend to do dressage- they all want to jump. At least at my barn the h/j barns are full of kids, but besides my daughter there are only a couple of others in regular dressage training.

Yes, VERY hard to find kids that "only" want to do dressage. :(


A pony that size needs to be very rideable by kids to be marketable. I would not buy one that small that is an off-breed as a resale project. I think the market is too limited. Are you sure he is only 13.2? Because I am 5'5 and 105 and am way too tall for a medium pony.

This is the attitude that gets us into trouble, you are NOT too tall for a medium pony, even the tiny ones w/o good bone. I have a good friend that is 5'7" and she rides even smalls for schooling in shows, it's all our whacked perspective. I agree with everything else you said. ;)



In addition, in Europe, even taller riders ride ponies - it is common to see teens on ponies long past when they would be considered outgrown in this country. I think that accounts for part of the reason the market for ponies is stronger.

Definitely, I like their way of thinking, in general not overfacing the kids on big horse they supposedly "look right" on.


Most GRP's I find have a ton of Welsh B and D crosses in there. Also not far off from my girl:

Yup. This gal of mine is by Kurbaum's Chief, a section D welsh cob who also is approved, registered and branded GRP. Such a dilemma on what to call her on the entry forms :winkgrin:

:D

You'd better call her Welsh or Welsh cross, drives me NUTS to see someone with a Welshie that is suddenly a "GRP". :rolleyes: Approved, maybe, but still doesn't change the breed. I know you *know* this, just sayin'....:winkgrin:




Market for small to medium size dressage ponies - not really existent. Large dressage ponies - a bit more interest but still not what it could be.

Ditto this, sorry OP. I do think you should pick up and train this little guy, but make sure you do it for your own satisfaction because I doubt you'd make $$ on it. Of course, I'd loooove for you to prove me wrong. :yes:

goodpony
Sep. 6, 2009, 12:06 PM
Im wondering if the market for this is variable depending on the region as I live on the West Coast and little more than half of the inquiries I receive are Adults looking for Dressage Ponies (bonus for jumping/eventing experience). I know this sounds cooky but my husband is working on his USDF Bronze riding one of our ponies(we have five). The pony has the mind and the talent for Dressage unlike his own horse who lives for Cross Country. They qualified this year for the Regional Adult Amateur Championship as well as the GAIG/USDF & CDS Championships....they were also the CDS high scoring pony at 1st Level last season (age five). Yes, he is definitely outgrown the pony but so far its just not been an issue. This is them...he's a purebred connemara pony.

http://gallery.me.com/redbudranch#100059/IMG_4090&bgcolor=black

mbm
Sep. 6, 2009, 01:16 PM
can i ask a dumb question?
what is the difference between welsh, connermara and GRP?

is either one better suited for dressage? is there a better "market" for one above the other?

YankeeLawyer
Sep. 6, 2009, 02:05 PM
Originally Posted by YankeeLawyer
A pony that size needs to be very rideable by kids to be marketable. I would not buy one that small that is an off-breed as a resale project. I think the market is too limited. Are you sure he is only 13.2? Because I am 5'5 and 105 and am way too tall for a medium pony.

Quote from Dune:


This is the attitude that gets us into trouble, you are NOT too tall for a medium pony, even the tiny ones w/o good bone. I have a good friend that is 5'7" and she rides even smalls for schooling in shows, it's all our whacked perspective. I agree with everything else you said.

Dune, I am not kidding, I am absolutely too tall for a medium. I school one for a friend and in order to not have my legs hanging down WELL below the pony's belly I have to really hike my stirrups up. It looks awful and feels worse. I am most definitely NOT someone who thinks I need a bigger horse than I actually need (nor am I one of those people who thinks having a bigger horse will make my butt look slimmer). I do think generally people here have skewed perspectives regarding the size horses they should have, and I never understood why women riders in particularly think they should be dwarfed by their horse's size. But my own horses range from 15.1 to 17.1, and I am happy on all of them. Maybe I have long legs for my height - not sure - but truly I cannot ride the mediums. Larges yes, mediums no.

tempichange
Sep. 6, 2009, 02:10 PM
can i ask a dumb question?
what is the difference between welsh, connermara and GRP?

is either one better suited for dressage? is there a better "market" for one above the other?

They're just considered different breeds.

GRP though, is an open book, a book that's supported by the GOV and producing ponies by type and through multiple breeds rather than a traditionally closed book.

No one breed is particularly better, considering the sport is more about individuals and the amount of training. I'm partial to Welsh, Goodpony, I know is partial to her awesome connemaras, and a few people who hang around here are partial to GRPs.

Sakura
Sep. 6, 2009, 03:40 PM
Originally Posted by YankeeLawyer
A pony that size needs to be very rideable by kids to be marketable. I would not buy one that small that is an off-breed as a resale project. I think the market is too limited. Are you sure he is only 13.2? Because I am 5'5 and 105 and am way too tall for a medium pony.

Quote from Dune:


Dune, I am not kidding, I am absolutely too tall for a medium. I school one for a friend and in order to not have my legs hanging down WELL below the pony's belly I have to really hike my stirrups up. It looks awful and feels worse. I am most definitely NOT someone who thinks I need a bigger horse than I actually need (nor am I one of those people who thinks having a bigger horse will make my butt look slimmer). I do think generally people here have skewed perspectives regarding the size horses they should have, and I never understood why women riders in particularly think they should be dwarfed by their horse's size. But my own horses range from 15.1 to 17.1, and I am happy on all of them. Maybe I have long legs for my height - not sure - but truly I cannot ride the mediums. Larges yes, mediums no.

Sounds like your height is in your legs :yes:... I have a longer torso and average length to my legs (can fit in most regular cut dress pants). I can understand how that can make you feel and appear too tall for a medium pony.

sayyadina
Sep. 6, 2009, 06:04 PM
I'm 5'1" and I have 2 13.2hh ponies. My Haflinger was used for jumping & trail riding before I got her, and the Welara was unrideable. The Haflinger is now retired, since that's what she wanted, though the Welara is doing very well.

Personally, I wish there were more horses/ponies available in the 13-15hh range, since I do not want a big horse.

Dune
Sep. 6, 2009, 07:35 PM
can i ask a dumb question?
what is the difference between welsh, connermara and GRP?

is either one better suited for dressage? is there a better "market" for one above the other?

They are all different individuals. Typically, I have found that pretty much every Connemara can jump, likes to jump and is really good at it. Dressage movers can be difficult to find among this breed, although not impossible. Goodpony, who posts here, has some very suitable ones for dressage. Welsh is another breed, in general they seem to be able to do a GOOD bit of everything. Again, depends on the individual as to whether or not they can or will do it. GRP is a registry, not a "breed" per se and they use many breeds to develop ponies for dressage/jumping/etc....among the breeds they use are the Welsh, Connemara, Arabians, New Forest, British riding ponies, some horse breeds as well. I wouldn't say that there is a better market for one or the other based on the 3 breeds you asked about, six of one, 1/2 dozen of the other...as they say.




Quote from Dune:


Dune, I am not kidding, I am absolutely too tall for a medium. I school one for a friend and in order to not have my legs hanging down WELL below the pony's belly I have to really hike my stirrups up. It looks awful and feels worse. I am most definitely NOT someone who thinks I need a bigger horse than I actually need (nor am I one of those people who thinks having a bigger horse will make my butt look slimmer). I do think generally people here have skewed perspectives regarding the size horses they should have, and I never understood why women riders in particularly think they should be dwarfed by their horse's size. But my own horses range from 15.1 to 17.1, and I am happy on all of them. Maybe I have long legs for my height - not sure - but truly I cannot ride the mediums. Larges yes, mediums no.

OK, you must be a freak of nature then with legs up to your armpits, and no, I'm not jealous.....no, I'm not.....(even though I'm taller than you and now I'm thinking my legs aren't as long....and they're plenty long) :winkgrin::lol:



They're just considered different breeds.

GRP though, is an open book, a book that's supported by the GOV and producing ponies by type and through multiple breeds rather than a traditionally closed book.

No one breed is particularly better, considering the sport is more about individuals and the amount of training. I'm partial to Welsh, Goodpony, I know is partial to her awesome connemaras, and a few people who hang around here are partial to GRPs.

Very well answered and in fewer words than I did above. I truly love all breeds of ponies that are talented for sport, I'm not partial to one breed or registry over another. I wish that all had that outlook, it would serve each breed much better, I think. You did a good job, tempi. :)

narcisco
Sep. 6, 2009, 07:55 PM
Ok, here's a non-breeders take on the differences between the pony breeds mentioned.

The Welsh ponies are like ordering a coke from McDonalds. You can get a small, medium, large or super-sized. They have a lot of Arab in them. The smaller ones are really refined, Arab heads, floaty movement. The Cobs are a bit drafty, feathers and all.

Connemaras are stout, but a little more refined than a Welsh cob. They jump. Really well. They weren't traditionally being bred for dressage, but for hunting and jumping in Ireland so the movement tends to be more huntery. I love that word.

German Riding Ponies were more line bred for dressage. I think they have some hackney pony or driving horse in there. They tend to be light moving and resemble small warmbloods.

mbm
Sep. 6, 2009, 08:10 PM
thanks narcisco!

HighFlyinBey++
Sep. 6, 2009, 08:23 PM
[edit]

Back to the original topic, I've got a dainty 13.1 hand Welara mare. My son rode her when he was small, but she's really too dainty for all but the tiniest of adults to ride. I trained her to drive so that she'd be useful to adults if anything ever happened to me. I think she'd be lovely in driven dressage.

exvet
Sep. 6, 2009, 08:36 PM
OK I know that Kelly and I sort of derailed the thread earlier but got it back on track or so I thought. I think we pretty much agree that the market for those under 14 hands is pretty tough because there really aren't that many of us, kids or adults, around to ride something that small in DRESSAGE. There are a few of us...........but............here's the challenge that I find to be paticularly "daunting," how many trainers are there really......who take on these that are this small? um and want to? I know, I know the handful of those around the country who have and may or may not still be doing it but again it's not like there's a huge number. If you can't train it yourself you're kind of, ahem well you know, SOL. So here you have a size that may be very talented and even if you can train it yourself like I can then what? Fortunately I do the training for myself and not for resale but what if I wanted to sell the stinker after say third level? A very conceivable level I might add having taken a few up there and beyond. He is now 7. Perhaps and that's a big IF he'll be child safe for a VERY saavy child when he's 15. The point is it's a gamble. Now the taller/large ponies are a bit more saleable. You have smaller adults and children to market to and more individuals willing and able to take them on as training projects. When I went on my stallion search I originally wanted a section C but ended up with another D because of the gaits I saw and the temperament. In the long run it will probably be smarter because I can breed him kind to kind and get the hony (actually more marketable in dressage circles I think) or I can breed him to A's & C's and get what I want - talented pony. It's just that there aren't truthfully that many crazy like me 'cause if it's got as much fire as it does talent (fortunately my stallion is very kind) or shall we say ponytude............just how many amateurs let alone children can ride it? The breed or registry really doesn't matter. I say this because I've tried to sell one or two of those incredibly athletic, proven show record, ponytude types and I can promise you that especially in these more modern times finding either a teen or an adult who can ride "that" is challenging to say the least.

If the OP really likes the pony I say go for it but only if you're prepared to keep it and campaign it or just enjoy it yourself. You may get lucky and find that perfect someone but it will be one of those cases of "when you least expect it" at least the stars are currently lined up that way...................

goodpony
Sep. 6, 2009, 08:37 PM
Its harder to find and buy a quality Connemara Pony in this country period. Those that are exceptional are exceptionally rare (and then those are priced at the highest end of the market.) There were only 80 purebreds born in 2008--I suspect it will continue to get even harder. They should not have daisy cutter movement...eeek! You move flat kneed in IRE you will soon be dead.

Bottom Line, I feel it is the temperment/trainability of the Connemara Pony that sets them apart---they are definitely a breed that can **usually** be ridden by both adults and children and can be found competing at the highest levels of every ridden/driven discipline. Those with difficult temperaments are generally the exception rather than the rule. Because of their nature they do tend to be competed almost exclusively by amatuers/juniors and really dont have a lot of heavy hitters promoting them. In fact, I dont think there's been connemara stallion in this country being promoted by a professional since Erin Go Braugh!

exvet
Sep. 6, 2009, 08:57 PM
Despite my love for "my breed" I agree with goodpony 100%. When I was in pony club several of us had Conn/TBs for good reason. I started with a welsh x percheron who was a saint but the Conn/TB helped me become competitive. Later as an adult, I searched for 2 years looking at both Connemaras and welsh cobs. It was as much the breeders as the quality (thinking in dressage terms) that turned me away and pushed me (though they really didn't have to push too hard) toward welsh cobs. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if I had been introduced to connemaras like what you (Lisa) have my past/future could easily have turned out very differently. I don't think welsh cobs are for everyone, nor the other sections though there are far more bred for children types of the As & Bs. In the end regardless of breed it still comes down to the individual when you're looking specifically for "A" discipline, work ethic & disposition as well as gaits. Doesn't sound too much different than when looking for the taller types ;) I think, however, too many assume smaller is safer/easier/easier to sit/easier to man handle/requires less of the rider....................................uh yup :winkgrin:

Now I will put in this one plug...........when you do find that welsh you click with and if it has the gaits, there will be no stopping you :winkgrin: I realize that could fit for a lot of breeds but I do love what I love :D

BaroquePony
Sep. 6, 2009, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by exvet:

I started with a welsh x percheron

Alright, I am still trying to picture this in my head :rolleyes:

NJRider
Sep. 6, 2009, 09:36 PM
I am not sure if I caught on your post what part of the country you are located in. I am in the midwest and it is pretty tough. I bred some very nice New Forest crosses and the filly the was sold out East did very well. The local market however is non-existent. I just pretty much gave away a 6 yr old 14h pony, dressage trained with a show record that was a half-sister to a Devon winner. What I ran into having her for sale was the adults who inquired about her, I think because of her size, were all pretty much non-riders with fear issues. She is a quiet pony but not dead! So it was hard to weed those out. And I really did not have the means to put kids on her and have her shown, so it was hard to market her with what means I had. Like others stated, most want a kids horse that jumps.
Re: GRP, remember that the Old. GOV can approve various breeds so what I see is a LOT of plain old quarter horses "approved" GRP advertised as GRP....what is funny is their names are "Poco Pine So and So" haha

Lisa Cook
Sep. 6, 2009, 09:52 PM
I have an event pony - an honest pony at 14.1 - who can do a decent low level test when ridden by an experienced, tactful rider. By decent, I mean consistent eventing dressage scores in the 32 area (68 in regular dressage scoring) with an experienced rider.

The problem is...er, she's a pony. A pony mare, to be specific, but at least she's not chestnut to add to the issue. ;) She will take advantage of a kid, especially if they are not particularly established with dressage fundamentals. When the mare jumps, she is positively saintly with her generosity and forgiveness of mistakes. When it comes to dressage...she gives nothing away and will happily resemble a llama on crack, unless given a very correct ride.

I'm guessing the adults who are good enough to give her the ride she needs to do well with dressage would prefer to be on a horse, not a pony. Which leaves kids. Who tend to be lacking in the dressage experience department, simply due to age. Then we are back to llama on crack.

It is something of a conundrum.

exvet
Sep. 6, 2009, 10:17 PM
Alright, I am still trying to picture this in my head

She was built like a tank, 14 hands and what she couldn't go over she could go through. My mom always knew I would make it to the end still mounted. She was an unplanned crossing but the perfect pony for me (plus my Dad could get on her and ride when it was necessary). She was seal brown, no white. Not sure if I can find a picture or that it would scan very well but I can try.

BaroquePony
Sep. 6, 2009, 10:37 PM
exvet, I would love to see a picture of her. I have pictures of Monty saved on my hard drive :yes:

exvet
Sep. 6, 2009, 10:40 PM
exvet, I would love to see a picture of her. I have pictures of Monty saved on my hard drive

OK I'll look but you guys must promise not to laugh. We're talking early, early 70's and the clothes to go with it.

Ambrey
Sep. 6, 2009, 10:41 PM
Oh, seriously, I want to see too :)

tempichange
Sep. 6, 2009, 11:11 PM
Bottom Line, I feel it is the temperment/trainability of the Connemara Pony that sets them apart---they are definitely a breed that can **usually** be ridden by both adults and children and can be found competing at the highest levels of every ridden/driven discipline. Those with difficult temperaments are generally the exception rather than the rule. Because of their nature they do tend to be competed almost exclusively by amatuers/juniors and really dont have a lot of heavy hitters promoting them. In fact, I dont think there's been connemara stallion in this country being promoted by a professional since Erin Go Braugh!

I remember when I began looking for a horse. I went to Hideaway Farm. I had always been a fan of Go Bragh, grew up riding connemara crosses (the welsh were always these hot buttoned jumping machines) and wanted something along the same lines (performance/sanity).

I found that they were hugely crossbreeding with not just thoroughbreds, but at the same time, the purebreds that they had, were imported from... Germany. Fantastic ponies. Just the few I wanted were about 4k out of range. But very nice none the less.


Now I will put in this one plug...........when you do find that welsh you click with and if it has the gaits, there will be no stopping you I realize that could fit for a lot of breeds but I do love what I love

I'll double that and see you a pony! I know if I ask for the moon, Sinari will get Mars. But, with that said, there better be sugar cubes and licorice waiting or there'd be heck to pay!

BaroquePony
Sep. 6, 2009, 11:20 PM
Well, I have crossed over to the dark side. I bought a Welsh Cob Section D at the end of the year last year.

Lisa Cook
Sep. 6, 2009, 11:26 PM
Bottom Line, I feel it is the temperment/trainability of the Connemara Pony that sets them apart---they are definitely a breed that can **usually** be ridden by both adults and children and can be found competing at the highest levels of every ridden/driven discipline. Those with difficult temperaments are generally the exception rather than the rule. Because of their nature they do tend to be competed almost exclusively by amatuers/juniors and really dont have a lot of heavy hitters promoting them. In fact, I dont think there's been connemara stallion in this country being promoted by a professional since Erin Go Braugh!

This is interesting because I've ridden a Connemara X mare, by Erin Go Bragh, and she has her...quirky....moments. And everyone who hears who she is by nods in a familiar way and tells me that Go Bragh offspring, especially the mares, are known for a tendency to be hot and/or quirky in some way. Not always the most easy rides.

I've heard the same thing about horses from the Grange Finn Sparrow line...terrific athletes, but wired hotter than other Connemara lines and not always for amateurs.

And I'm a fan of Connemaras, really...I've been looking around at Connemara stallions, hoping to find one with a proven performance background from the Grange Finn Sparrow line (not an easy thing to find, I've noticed), to someday breed my large pony mare to.

exvet
Sep. 6, 2009, 11:38 PM
This is interesting because I've ridden a Connemara X mare, by Erin Go Bragh, and she has her...quirky....moments. And everyone who hears who she is by nods in a familiar way and tells me that Go Bragh offspring, especially the mares, are known for a tendency to be hot and/or quirky in some way. Not always the most easy rides.

When I was looking many years ago I was informed by a connemara breeder (can't verify the info though) that there was a TB used to make a leggier Connemara. There were a few still around that carried that line and they were known to bit a bit hot. I believe the TB was named Little Heaven. Both stallions you mention go back to that TB.

goodpony
Sep. 6, 2009, 11:55 PM
yep...there were in fact several TB used in the Connemara Breed: EGB is linebred Little Heaven through Erin Bay (http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/erinbay) what is interesting with Erin Bay is that her dam Glen Nelly is Linebred to Thistleton....another TB used in the breed. Powder I believe was a COB :0

GFS has Little Heaven through his dam Dun Sparrow.

Roan
Sep. 7, 2009, 08:20 AM
Let's not forget the Lipizzan. Many of the more traditional types are under 14.3hh and are excellent dressage ponies. Even the small ones take up a lot of leg and are suitable for that taller rider.

I've my eye on one that we are *hoping* to pick up next year as a "family" horse. She's 5 and currently 14.1hh -- should mature around 14.2hh. She's by a GP stallion and related to my mare. Perfect for my daughter and son for Pony Club and more than enough for hubby and I, too.

That said, I do love a Connemara and we have two at the barn right now. One is an old lady -- total sweetheart -- that my daughter loves to death. She's a little much for her to jump as yet, though. The other is hell on wheels and a jumping fool :D

Eileen

BaroquePony
Sep. 7, 2009, 08:35 AM
Powder I believe was a COB :0

:lol:

quietann
Sep. 7, 2009, 10:21 AM
But that market really isn't there (at least in the South East) for a small horse or large pony. We had a great, lightly built, registered, 14.1 hand Morgan, schooling at a strong level 2 that my son rode and outgrew. Very well put together, nice, five years old and just a dream horse for a child. We couldn't sell her for for dressage -even with two years with an exceptional dressage teacher working with her and my son. Even when we went to $1000. and I was advertising her, no one even called. We finally just pulled her off the market, because we were getting to the low end of the market where buyers are kind of substandard around here. We had a lot more interest in her as a driving horse than as a dressage prospect.

Very sad but I've seen it too. When I was looking, I wanted a Morgan in the 14 to 15 hand range (I am 5'1" and 140 lbs.). Probably the *fanciest* one I looked at was a lovely 14.1 hand mare, but at not quite 4 too green for me. She was a beautiful blood bay and had fabulous gaits and the sweetest personality, and was very well bred. Owner had had her on the market for a year, priced quite a lot higher than yours (but we are in an expensive area) and just was not getting nibbles. She was being marketed more as a Morgan than as a dressage pony.

She did eventually sell, after 20 months and at a much-reduced price, to a non-show home and is greatly enjoyed as a trail horse and hunter pace horse... but with a competent child or small adult on, would have been a fabulous dressage Morgan. I sometimes think that with a few more months training she would have been better for me than the Morgan I did buy (and that is saying something, as I love my horse!)

So add Morgans to the list of "non-pony" breeds that are often pony sized, and will take up the leg of a lot of adults.

ON TB/Conn crosses -- I've only met one, and he's nearly 17 hands, but he is a fabulously talented eventer. He doesn't much enjoy dressage, but puts in a very good dressage test most of the time. He'd just rather be jumping. His grandsire is either GFS or EGB and he's not "hot" exactly, but definitely has a "GO" button. He is conformed like a pony on very long horse legs and wears a size 75 blanket, and has that very "catty" pony brain.

exvet
Sep. 7, 2009, 11:04 AM
So I'm going to address/ask this question (of the OPs) from another angle............what is a fair price for a nice moving (say gaits easily 7 or 8), backed and trained w-t-c (at least enough for intro/OK training level test), young dressage pony prospect in the 13-14 hand range and then the 14-14.2 hand range?

Now I'm asking this question for the following reasons:

1) I realize that there is a limited market, ie, of the dressage riders out there the number of people that can ride ponies is a subset (ie, fewer) and the number of people who feel that they are competitive on ponies is also a subset whether we agree with that premise or not.

2) There are fewer trainers whether due to size or perception willing to take on a pony. For some it's because they feel that they cannot get on it and a necessary component of their training program is that they ride the critter. For others again it comes down to perception.

3) Do you think that the training that adds value to any pony/horse reaches a ceiling effect sooner with ponies due to #1 & #2? I personally do. I know I can never, ever recoup the value of the training put into my ponies/honies and I didn't pay anyone else to do it either.

4) Without incentives (yes, I know of Kelly's efforts, Lendon's program and efforts and the CDS awards as well as a limited number of comparable awards) driving a market it's difficult to grow one. HOW many here other than Lisa M. has seen a significant increase in the numbers of dressage ponies out there competing in DRESSAGE? How many here have seen an increase in the number of children riding/showing in DRESSAGE? I can say that I've seen an oddity and that's 3 children of ages 9 or less riding in intro on a regular basis. We have a few trainers who had kids around the same time and now their kids are riding (extremely adorable) ponies at Intro. I will be very interested in seeing just how and on what they move up on. As for the older children - not so much. It's the same crew and all mounted on horses except mine.

5) Is there any chance we are to blame? Are we pricing ourselves out of the market because we believe that if the pony is equally capable as the warmblood counterpart (in reality it may yet to be seen), has very good gaits (and they usually do), and some training into it (maybe not shown at a recognized show though), and a stud fee to recoup that we deserve the same prices as all those oldenburg, hanno, trak, dutch, etc critters of the same age range, level of training? Is that wise?

I'll say this. I've seen a few breeders, especially those who have access to a great training partnership or able to train ponies on their own that have successfully increased their own local market and have return customers. It has created pockets of "dressage, eventing, fun-day" ponies. Yet I don't see a preponderance of ponies at the dressage shows and I've been here for 10 years showing mine and watching a few come and go, previously I was competing in region 4 - same observations. I would think in the last decade (or two or three) that I would have actually seen a difference instead of just hearing about it/reading about it on the Internet. Is it vastly different in other areas like where Lisa M. is? or is her locale the only pony mecca? I hear the turnout for the pony dressage show (held in the midwest) has been good but has it been reflected in the prices actually received (not the asking price)?

Just some musings as I wait for my kids to wake up so we can hit the trail on our herd of ponies :cool:

sidepasser
Sep. 7, 2009, 11:25 AM
The little girl that is taking lessons from my trainer is only doing dressage. Parents afraid of jumping, little girl is too timid for jumping. Hard to find an older dressage pony (well let's say it is sort of impossible so far) that can do w/t with said little girl while her pony, which is being trained to drive and will be trained for dressage grows up.

I think there might be a market for ponies for those children who have no interest in jumping but maybe people lose interest given that there are few dressage ponies out there to choose from.

I know there are ponies out there, but child safe types are very.hard.to.find.

narcisco
Sep. 7, 2009, 11:37 AM
Exvet,

Here's my thinking on the pricing subject. It costs as much time and training to finish a pony as a horse. So, in terms of training, temperament and rideability, they are equally valuable.

But, I think you nailed it in terms of supply and demand. Big people can ride a big horse, small people can ride a big horse. There is twice as much demand for big horses.

As small people open their minds to riding ponies, as ponies start to show more and win more in the dressage ring, then the smaller people will start to look more at ponies, your demand will increase, and so can your prices.

MistyBlue
Sep. 7, 2009, 12:27 PM
BaroquePony...any photos of your section D?

I'm still drooling over the larges on Exvet's website. :)

YankeeLawyer
Sep. 7, 2009, 12:44 PM
BaroquePony...any photos of your section D?


I would like to see, also. :)

goodpony
Sep. 7, 2009, 12:48 PM
taken from Lendon Grays:http://www.dressage4ponies.com/

"Before we have children riding good quality 3rd level however we need someone training these ponies. We need schoolmasters! I consider a schoolmaster to be a pony with a temperament that a child or beginner adult is safe handling and riding, has three comfortable gaits, is easy to ride on the bit, and is “idiot-proof” in all the Third Level movements (flying changes not required). We are fortunate in the US that adults can show ponies in USEF shows (not in FEI shows – they can ride ponies in FEI classes at USEF shows!) That means we should have experienced adults schooling and giving mileage to young ponies who can then become schoolmasters. Right?"

I think Lendon makes some important points with respect to what is needed from us breeders/riders/trainers and I would say I agree with what she is saying. For the market to be a viable one we need these schoolmasters and we need them out competing to generate interest.

My Region may be unique in that FEI Pony Tests are regularly offered--so its not a lack of venues--though these venues I would say are not well attended. We also have CDS pony Awards a program I have watched triple in participation since it first began. While out this season I did meet one Jr. Rider who is showing her pony (a Halfie) successfully in these venues including at the national championship levels. I know others who have come up through the system competing on appropriate mounts including Both Connemara, Dutch and Welsh Ponies---and those riders are now competing successfully on the NA FEI Jr. Teams.

This season I did see several ponies out competing with both jrs and adults.

Ambrey
Sep. 7, 2009, 12:51 PM
My trainer has an adorable section D and his young rider in training, working 1st/2nd. Really nice horse.

Not sure if we're allowed to talk about it though, because he's also over 14.2 ;)

BaroquePony
Sep. 7, 2009, 02:54 PM
Yes, photos and a video. I am "starting him over" from scratch using classical dressage schooling methods as opposed to the "sales frame" that his is crammed into in the video. When he arrived here he was missing a large patch of fur off of his nose, the shipper threw the lead rope at me and said, "he's reeeaaalll pushy", in an angry voice. I put Max in a stall and after he tried to demolish the stall I let him out immediately. I would not call him an "ammy" horse, which is what I thought I was getting.

http://www.toplinesporthorse.com/max/

BaroquePony
Sep. 7, 2009, 03:04 PM
In all fairness to Hannah, she did tell me he had NO stable manners ...

exvet
Sep. 7, 2009, 03:06 PM
My Region may be unique in that FEI Pony Tests are regularly offered--so its not a lack of venues--though these venues I would say are not well attended. We also have CDS pony Awards a program I have watched triple in participation since it first began.

I truly wished I lived closer to your area. I know there are pockets of areas like this but again have you seen an increase in demand? See I have a hard time determining if it's an interest in dressage ponies or breed and as for a marked increase, again no. Certainly there are those ambassadors out there that create a bit of a following and we'll see more inquiries but at least to me it doesn't seem to be sustained nor a driving force to create more market.

I do agree 100% with Lendon & you but where is the real incentive to create those schoolmasters? You know I have one here who my daughter has been promised to have but even so, she's in school and he's available to others for lessons. I have three friends who could all learn a lot from this guy and only one has taken advantage of the offer. I don't charge for riding him. My riding instructor charges her usual lesson fee. Now I know time constraints and even funds for lessons are tight but I don't think there is a huge demand for the pony schoolmasters even. A need, yes, a demand, no.

And BaroquePony I know "that" cob. You ended up with/in a very typical scenario. He is a looker though and will probably come around with the right training/hand. Many of mine are pushy, that's a common personality trait though it doesn't have to be a bad one. I kind of like 'em bold. I also have had a few try to tear down their accomodations if they weren't use to a routine.........................welsh cobs...................as I said aren't for everyone. They have a very distinct sense of humor but once you win them over and gain their trust those "issues" actually will turn into positive traits. :yes:

Ambrey
Sep. 7, 2009, 03:21 PM
BaroquePony, he's gorgeous!

poltroon
Sep. 7, 2009, 03:41 PM
In fact, I dont think there's been connemara stallion in this country being promoted by a professional since Erin Go Braugh!

Cashel's Rock of Ages is doing PSG ... I think he's been campaigned by both a professional and a young rider.

As far as size and fit... if you look at all those pictures of ODGs, and even new live ones like Steffen and Guenter, most of the time their feet are below the belly. After working with my pony, I don't think this is an accident: I think being tall compared to your horse is a big advantage for being able to apply the aids quietly and effectively in dressage.

poltroon
Sep. 7, 2009, 03:44 PM
By the way, with respect to "pushy" - my Connemara benefited dramatically from a bit of clicker training. In about an hour I taught her that mugging and pushing would never get her a treat. The ponies especially seem to love working out puzzles.

poltroon
Sep. 7, 2009, 03:48 PM
This is interesting because I've ridden a Connemara X mare, by Erin Go Bragh, and she has her...quirky....moments. And everyone who hears who she is by nods in a familiar way and tells me that Go Bragh offspring, especially the mares, are known for a tendency to be hot and/or quirky in some way. Not always the most easy rides.

When I was looking many years ago I was informed by a connemara breeder (can't verify the info though) that there was a TB used to make a leggier Connemara. There were a few still around that carried that line and they were known to bit a bit hot. I believe the TB was named Little Heaven. Both stallions you mention go back to that TB.

It can't be just about the TB, though. My Connemara mare is from one of the hot mare lines... she is 2/64th TB.

eventerchick517
Sep. 7, 2009, 04:07 PM
I skipped a couple pages so my response might be overkill....

In my area there is NO market for a dressage/event pony, or even one that has FEI/upper level event potential. I'm trying to sell mine right now and I haven't gotten a single bite on him. Nobody seems to want a pony right now.

exvet
Sep. 7, 2009, 04:21 PM
It can't be just about the TB, though. My Connemara mare is from one of the hot mare lines... she is 2/64th TB.

As I said it was just something told to me by a breeder when I was making my inquiries and decisions regarding which breed to go with.

Here is what I find somewhat ironic. We have a few connemara people here. Some stating how their breed is more even keel and other admitting that not all are; and, you people are down right civilized about it.

I have stated for years on this board that welsh cobs are something of an acquired taste for many of the same reasons. Some are absolute saints, some are the extreme opposite and then there are those that fall into the middle. There are a few in the past who have taken my statements and references to a couple of specific bloodlines as personal attacks or providing downright "not knowing my butt from a hole in the ground" type of reactions.

Now the fact is that we're talking about ponies for dressage and several layers of them. We have identified the need for a saint type, died in the wool packer who can do the movements, give confidence, and not be too difficult of a ride. I find that most ponies with the gaits and the pizazz to be competitive not having the tempearment to meet the schoolmaster grade. Now I said most not all. Some ponies are masters at revving it up for the adult and quieting it down for the child/beginner but I find that while those are great mounts (I have two of those) it isn't that easy for the child/beginner to get "the dressage" stuff out of those types. I've ended up putting my kids on real beginner type packers (not dressage ponies) to give them their seat and then placed them back on the true dressage ponies (less frustration for all involved). Then we advance on to the ones I'll call the real deal, the truly competitive knock your socks off types. Not all are hot but I think the vast majority are sensitive and HAVE POWER. If we're talking about welsh cobs it's that combination of power, sensitivity & sense of humor that can be somewhat daunting to an amateur looking to downsize. I can only guess the connemaras may have a few individuals that would fall into this category too.

So there are many types of ponies and not all make the same type of dressage pony. There are also many different needs when shopping for an appopriate mount, ponies included. What is one's man hot tamale may be my quest for zest. The challenge is knowing if we're speaking the same language such that we're able to match up the rider to the pony and walk away knowing we made a harmonious pair to wow the dressage world and gain market share ;) I guess this has always been my greatest challenge - knowing that someone is a good match for one of my ponies. I did just sell one and was thrilled to find out after hauling them to a recognized show with me (they were just going to school) that it is a match made in heaven. I didn't make any real bucks on the deal but definitely can sleep at night. In the wrong hands, it could have turned out really ugly. I have turned several away because I simply didn't think they could handle the power or would try to "force a cob" to do what they want :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:.......result wouldn't have been good for advertisements. It's a conundrum. It really is.

Ambrey
Sep. 7, 2009, 04:23 PM
The welsh cob that is with my trainer is quite hot, definitely a score for exvet's side. His young rider does wonderfully with him, though.

MistyBlue
Sep. 7, 2009, 04:26 PM
Ooo Baroque...I like him! Just my type of build and size...*and* personality. :D Love them short thick firecrackers! :yes:

BaroquePony
Sep. 7, 2009, 04:30 PM
Ambrey, thanks.

exvet, I figured you would know exactly what I was dealing with. I was warned that cobs have an "attitude", can be cheeky and don't suffer fools glady ... so, while I did expect a few issues, I was rather in awe of what kind of monster I had just purchased. I do believe the three thousand mile trip bounincg around in the back of a semi upset Max ... bbuuuuttt, I think he was a spoiled rotten jerk to begin with.

The first couple of months were rough on both of us. He is coming around very well, but I am taking it very slowly .... lots of schooling out on the trails. And he LOVES to be praised for doing things correctly ... I absolutley love this pony, but I know he is not fullly reliable yet.

exvet
Sep. 7, 2009, 04:51 PM
I do believe the three thousand mile trip bounincg around in the back of a semi upset Max ... bbuuuuttt, I think he was a spoiled rotten jerk to begin with.

Gee Monty didn't even have the excuse of any lengthy trip but I knew he was a spoiled brat because that's exactly why they were calling me and wanting to know if I would please take him. :lol: So there's hope, definitely hope and even a bright future.

I did have one ruined by a lengthy trip, not in miles so much as time and bad handling. He is my permanent pasture ornament/baby sitter. I did ride him for 6 months or so but instead of being bold and pushy he was insecure, scared which then turned into dangerous due to the mishandling.

My others are typical welsh cobs just as you describe. I do think the bold ones if given the appropriate boundaries turn out to be the absolute best. I was riding Cosmo this AM (BTW I purchased her long distance, from video and pics alone. She traveled from NC to AZ and settled in fine though I was prepared for anything). I let my daughter ride her the past two days since my daughter was finally given the go ahead (after breaking her back in May) to return to trail riding (walk only). So she took her out Sat & Sun for a "break". Well I got on to school in the arena this AM. It started OK, then turned into a battle of the wills 'cause Cosmo really would prefer to just hack around; BUT, we ended with some really nice/promising mediums, a more balanced canter and some awesome lateral work. Still there she was dripping wet and a deflated semblance of a fire breathing half WELSH COB MARE. I love her and she's going to really do some nice things in the near future but easy?.......yeah if you throw her the reins and just let her be a hack and perfect/safe for even the greenest of beginners.............she likes to jump so that's OK too yet she can get racey if we're seeing other horses are ahead of us (foxhunting, hunter paces, etc) and then driving - she's a speed demon in a good way but let's just say P-O-W-E-R is not lacking. She's not afraid to share what her preferences are and nothing of value comes for free. It's not that she hates dressage. It's that she doesn't like letting anyone else even give the image that she's not the one in complete control :winkgrin: So we have a true partnership - I don't get heavy handed and gradually ask for each new increase in intensity and she stays soft if and ONLY if I don't get in her way :D

Got to luv 'em but not for the faint of heart IF the faint of heart is dreamin' to do more and not ready.

I'm sure Max will be sprucing the pages here with some pretty impressive accomplishments. You're going about it in exactly the right manner. I promise :yes: ; but I think you already know that ;)

goodpony
Sep. 7, 2009, 04:53 PM
Cashel's Rock of Ages is doing PSG ... I think he's been campaigned by both a professional and a young rider.

Im not sure he's being campaigned.... it appears he did some 2nd level with someone this season.

http://www.usdf.org/scorecheck/ScoreCheckResults.asp?NumberPass=35028

hluing
Sep. 7, 2009, 05:01 PM
I always enjoy hearing others share thier experiences with thier dressage ponies...but some of the things said here give me pause.

I can share that in Florida...dressage ponies are increasing quite a bit at the shows. When I started breeding in 2003, you never saw them at the shows. Now, there are always a handful, and growing both in number and in quality. I have found there is a demand for dressage ponies...and quality dressage pony prospects...you just have to remember it IS a niche market.

As far as types of ponies and pricing...remember dressage ponies are as diverse group as dressage horses. Should they all be priced like warmbloods...probably not. However, some ponies, the GRP and other European ponies in partcular, are basicly scaled down warmbloods. So, yes, I do think they should be similarly priced (with the caveot that thier is a ceiling...the most I have heard of GRP's selling for is 70,000 Euro or so while the top WB's are weighing in at 400 Euros or so these days I think). Now of course it depends on the individual pony...breeding alone is not enough and some grade ponies or unusual crosses can be pretty fancy.

I guess what I find encouaging is the fact that things are sooo much better than when I started breeding GRP's. They have grown by leaps and bounds and there are more opportunities all then time for dressage ponies. We have to keep asking for them and making it happen as dressage pony rider/breeders.

exvet
Sep. 7, 2009, 05:24 PM
I guess what I find encouaging is the fact that things are sooo much better than when I started breeding GRP's. They have grown by leaps and bounds and there are more opportunities all then time for dressage ponies. We have to keep asking for them and making it happen as dressage pony rider/breeders.

OK Heather are you sitting down? I agree with you :D I'm not surprised that things have improved in CA and FL. IMO they do seem to be more concentrated with regards to higher level & quality of dressage horses in general, BNTs, and number and quality of venues; so the fact that ponies are increasing in those areas before elsewhere seems to follow suit. I also think I've seen an improvement in the quality of ponies of several breeds/registries when discussing specific breeders who are focusing on performance for the sport venues.

So what do you suggest in terms of the more sparse areas as to where to start with increasing the opportunities? I've talked to the show management about FEI pony classes but again though we have a few who could ride FEI on ponies, most if not all of us are adults (wide range of ages though) and the presence of/access to a competent child rider is what we're all looking for/working on. Unfortunately my daughter is out due to her lumbar fractures.

I guess I could see about sponsoring a high scoring pony award but I'm not sure that's going to do the trick. Honestly I get perpetuals and year ends when mixed with the big guys and don't really think a specific pony award is what will drive the market but am willing to admit that I could be wrong.

I've been intrigued by the few pony clinics I've heard about but know of them happening in an area only once or twice, not consistently/repetitively to feel that they've been "successful".

Specific breed awards for dressage, well we'll skip that one otherwise Kelly and I will hijack the thread again :winkgrin:

Your assessment on price is what I expected. Do you find, though, given where you are that the overall rider quality is "better"? I mean I have too many [adults] who come to me and honestly it's not the size that they need to focus on to improve their riding.....................if ya know what I mean and I'm not trying to be catty just realistic. They need safe, sane and not too big of movement. My ponies have too big of movement for many who come a calling even the ones who are relatively sane. So to match pony to rider and be happy with the result I do end up giving on price or becoming creative.

We have someone in our area who has through ET produced 5 GRPs to date. The oldest is only one year old. The mare is "hot" in the owners terms. She was imported for her daughter a few years ago who lost interest and moved out. The mare is to die for and a child is riding her but at the last two shows the child scratched and went in HC lead around on a lead line. The babies are really something. The owner/breeder has set up a riding camp and has a nice facility trying to encourage interest and develop riders for her ponies. I guess we'll see in time just how successful she becomes with it. I fear, however, she needs a better trainer to truly succeed. Failure won't be on the part of the horseflesh (sires are Fforest Flame & one of Nancy's stallions).

Hmm now I fear not only do you need to be sitting down but I may need to run and get you a fan or smelling salts :D

goodpony
Sep. 7, 2009, 05:59 PM
It can't be just about the TB, though. My Connemara mare is from one of the hot mare lines... she is 2/64th TB.

As I said it was just something told to me by a breeder when I was making my inquiries and decisions regarding which breed to go with.

Here is what I find somewhat ironic. We have a few connemara people here. Some stating how their breed is more even keel and other admitting that not all are; and, you people are down right civilized about it.



It may be I see something different in my own ponies because only one has any of the more common american influences in her breeding. I have also bought young or bred my own. SO again it may be the difference in handling/training as you pointed out. Recently we 'restarted' our 11 year old foundation mare. This mare came to us five years ago having had only basic training (very green broke). She has not been ridden more than five times in nearly five years. She is the mother of seven purebred foals and so hasn't had a lot of time to devote to furthering her education. We were told she had a "history" and so we weren't sure what we might get while starting her back under saddle. Well, She started out exactly where she left off and is doing a fine fair job of putting her fat lazy four year old son to shame. She is a big moving forward going pony who by my estimation has probably been misunderstood and dealt with harshly at some time in her life. She is a classic over achiever type but if given clear direction there is not a "stupid/hot bone" in her body. In the same vein, I can see clearly where it would be very easy for someone lacking any sort of appreciation for her sort of intelligence (which is extremely keen) to say she is a difficult pony.

BaroquePony
Sep. 7, 2009, 06:28 PM
MistyBlue, thanks for the compliment on Max. If I get totally fed up with him, I'll send him up to you. exvet seems to have plenty of them already :lol:

Back to reading everything I missed while out doing barn chores.

goodpony
Sep. 7, 2009, 06:34 PM
Exvet, I think you are doing exactly what needs doing to generate interest... getting out there and posting results. We are just starting out ourselves and have all young ponies but will continue to do it because we enjoy doing it. If I were more willing (my husband would gladly sell my pony out from under me) to sell my ridden ponies I can tell you there is a demand. I've had very competitive(if not extravagant) offers on all three of the ponies we currently have going under saddle (ages six, four and four). The most interest is in our six year old stallion who is the furthest along. None of my ridden ponies are for sale at this time, but we do have several who will eventually be on offer. My two most recent inquiries were for an FEI Pony prospect (Jr. Rider) and another for competitive adult rider. Most of my inquiries are from competitive adults. I would say that the demand is growing in relation to the efforts of people like you and others.

The person who was most interested in our stallion did eventually import something.....its a beautiful pony but she has already mentioned in passing he is much hotter than anticipated.

tempichange
Sep. 7, 2009, 06:48 PM
I do agree 100% with Lendon & you but where is the real incentive to create those schoolmasters? You know I have one here who my daughter has been promised to have but even so, she's in school and he's available to others for lessons. I have three friends who could all learn a lot from this guy and only one has taken advantage of the offer. I don't charge for riding him. My riding instructor charges her usual lesson fee. Now I know time constraints and even funds for lessons are tight but I don't think there is a huge demand for the pony schoolmasters even. A need, yes, a demand, no.

The problem is by the time we invest in the individual pony, and compete it, train it we don't want to give the critter up! I've had the offers on my girl for a long time, but she's too much fun at this point and lets face it, she grows on you.

The other problem is the promotion end of it, I'm an Ammie on a budget. While I can beat on my own drum ala blog (dressagepony.blogspot.com), very few people are interested in creating an overall community and excitement behind a dressage pony.


They have a very distinct sense of humor but once you win them over and gain their trust those "issues" actually will turn into positive traits. :yes:

Or a distinct sense of who owes whom ;)

exvet
Sep. 7, 2009, 06:56 PM
exvet seems to have plenty of them already

Yup no more room at the Inn. Only accepting mares at this point any how. Will be adding one more to the herd over the next year.

Exvet, I think you are doing exactly what needs doing to generate interest... getting out there and posting results.

I'm not so sure. It will be interesting to see because up until recently I was only selling an occasional pony because my focus changed or their talents were better served elsewhere so I've definitely not been advertising or trying to get anything sold with the recent exception. In fact I never once advertised him even amongst the Welsh people. So my perspective is actually just observation of what else is out there. Previous sales occurred 5 years ago and 4 years before that so I'm more of a collector than seller :winkgrin:

I would say that it's no surprise you have been as successful as you've been for the following reasons: (1) You're not sticking to just one venue (2) Location (3) and as stated earlier- very nice/quality stock.

Plus I have had a reputation of taking on the rejects; so, it's not really comparing apples to apples. Many see my successes but also some major setbacks. I make no secret of that fact. I think many locals recognize how hard I've worked including those who are not my greatest fans and not so many want to go down that path. So using my personal situation as an example isn't really applicable; however, that does not mean I am any less interested in "the cause" which I hope is reflected in my posts. It does though also put me at odds with many breeders/trainers trying to sell big fluffy ponies as the easier option to warmbloods.

My interest has peaked because I hope to have my stallion out competing next year as well as his brother. I'm on the fence on exactly how to market him if I do at all. That being said (while keeping my options open) I would like to see more ponies at the dressage shows of any/all breeds/registries.

Again I'm happy to hear of yours and Heather's success and know that it reflects the quality of your respective programs. I also applaud you for having the ability to train yours up and not simply sell them all as raw talent. It sure would be nice to see some of your stock down here in region 5 :yes:


And Kelly you know better than anyone how much I share your pain/pleasure :D

BaroquePony
Sep. 7, 2009, 07:24 PM
I actually think the market for dressage ponies is going to increase. CA has always been ahead of the curve in trends in general (there are reasons for that).

My personal preference is for the old fashioned big boned, highly intelligent thoroughbred .... something that is becoming harder and harder to find. So, I decided to broaden my list of acceptable traits in looking for a new horse, or in this case, pony.

I started off looking for a connemara/thoroughbred cross ... somehow, thanks to the internet, I began viewing a few videos of Welsh Cobs ... I was also looking at Oldenburgs and Lusitanos. I like a certain type of conformation to start with ... and I truly prefer a tough constitution.

I really wasn't all that keen on the Oldenburgs as they are warmbloods ... my take on those (warmbloods in general) is how many seem to have physical problems of one sort or another, many career ending. They on average don't seem to have the strongest consitution ... and a lot of warmbloods don't seem to be too bright ...

So, all that was left were the ponies and the Lusitanos ... then, finding the right conformation ... ugh, another nighmare.

So, one thing led to another and I discovered the Welsh Cob. I honestly had never seen one live before I bought Max. I had seen many in photos and in videos and had heard numerous stories about them ....

Every kid who has seen Max so far has been totally in love with him. Most of these kids are small and skinny ... they could easily ride a 13.2 pony and look good on them for a long time. Of course not all of them will be serious about dressage, but you can bet some will be.

I know kids and horses fairly well, and I know that when they see an adult riding a large pony that they fall in love with, they want to emulate that image.

So, ride well and be friendly and kids will follow. IMHO.

YankeeLawyer
Sep. 7, 2009, 07:33 PM
Yes, photos and a video. I am "starting him over" from scratch using classical dressage schooling methods as opposed to the "sales frame" that his is crammed into in the video. When he arrived here he was missing a large patch of fur off of his nose, the shipper threw the lead rope at me and said, "he's reeeaaalll pushy", in an angry voice. I put Max in a stall and after he tried to demolish the stall I let him out immediately. I would not call him an "ammy" horse, which is what I thought I was getting.

http://www.toplinesporthorse.com/max/

I really like him!

This is hilarious, btw:

"Congrats to ________! You’re going to knock some socks off with this little pistol . . . !"

BaroquePony
Sep. 7, 2009, 07:47 PM
Yankee Lawyer, thanks. Hannah is a lot of fun. If you want to read a really funny description of a pony go to her "for sale" page and read the thing on Paddy's O'Michael, the connemara, all the way down at the bottom of the page. And the video of him ("Mikey") in the horse trailer is hilarious.

ETA: she said she put Mikey in the trailer to keep him out of trouble :lol:

hluing
Sep. 7, 2009, 09:23 PM
Ex-vet...you cracked me up! You may think we always agree to disagree...but
I see us as having quite a bit in common:)

MistyBlue
Sep. 7, 2009, 09:26 PM
LOL Baroque, don't be surprised if I set up an extra stall now. :winkgrin:
Dressage really isn't my "thing" in riding. I enjoy low levels of it and use some of the very basics in other disciplines anyways...but being a true blue dressage rider/competitor will probably never be my thing.
However, even as a non-dressage person I can see from being on the outside that dressage could use many more ponies and small horses. Why the buyers aren't as gung ho for them is beyond me...but then I've never been one of those "have to buy what everyone else has" type person.
I had a dressage mare...and she was spectacular. Dressage and size aside, she was my kind of horse. All attitude all the time and a consumate perfectionist. You rode her 100% correct or you didn't get bupkis from her. She was 17hh even sticked, big boned and a tad long built. I took lessons on her with a great dressage instructor...it was like trying to learn how to drive for the first time in a full size firetruck. Seriously...that's a whole lot of horse to ride right. Huge movement, huge horse, huge attitude. When we got it right it was definitely "WOW!" But getting it right was a hella lot harder with that much animal. I thpght I was completely dressage retarded until I swapped out and rode a 15.2hh horse...same attitude and also had pretty experssive movement. Only real difference was size and power...and suddenly I could ride. Go figure...a 5'2" person doesn't need 17hh and 1640 lbs of horse under their arse. ;)
I've been to many dressage shows to watch...and have noticed the difference of same level riders on different horse sizes. Smaller is better...it's easily seen if you sit back and watch. Bigger is better if the rider is actually a big person (an actual tall/big person...not someone 5'7" who thinks they're all legs and need 18hh) but that's mostly for looks. Smaller looks better and seems easier to micromanage the ride on.
I just don't get the need for huge horses across all disciplines. From what I've seen over decades in multiple disciplines...the ideal sport horse size is 15-16hh. Yes, even to get the strides in other disciplines. Size of horse does not mean size of stride. Or ability to collect. or ability to move forward. The *only* reason we don't see more Teddys et al (small competition horses) is that people don't develop "short" horses as often as they do large ones IMO.
And with the amount of reriders out there, frankly I'm surprised more large ponies and short horses aren't in demand.

poltroon
Sep. 7, 2009, 09:58 PM
I think we can get a long way if we just keep talking about our wonderful ponies online. :)

As I said, my pony is from a hot mare line... but she will stand quietly, or walk quietly, as long as you like on a long rein. I wouldn't trust her with a beginner rider, because she is athletic and is not the type to suffer a fool, but she is a total joy to ride if you know how. Quiet leg, quiet hands, and as much power as you want. She is a joy for dressage because she is so freely forward and light to the aids. (Though truly, she prefers the jumping, no question.)

I think there are two things that will get more ponies into dressage: first, we have more dressage mommies who have up and coming kids, and they are more interested in dressage and in ponies as a combination. (When I was growing up, dressage was still very new and not terribly available. The closest dressage instructor to me was Hilda Gurney, 1 1/2 hours away. There certainly were no second generation riders doing dressage.) Second, again here in CA anyway, to be competitive you need a pretty impressive mover. If you can't afford the mid five figures, you need to look in other directions, and ponies are one of those very practical directions to go.

And I'm definitely a fan of special pony awards. I think they do encourage people to get the ponies to recognized shows, and they also encourage people to get their animals measured, and they provide recognition for those ponies when they do well.

I am schooling my pony with the FEI pony classes in mind. It would be terrific if my daughter ends up riding her, but if not, I'll see if I can work out someone else to show her.

BaroquePony
Sep. 7, 2009, 10:40 PM
Misty, I do know that if I get Max back to being a reasonably mannerly fellow, I do not want anything bad to happen to him if something were ever to happen to me. So, I will keep it in mind that you like stout little firecrackers with lots of personality.

I certainly can attest to Max having a sense of humor. For the first FOUR weeks he absolutley couldn't mange to stand still for more than about two or three minutes (and this was just for grooming) ... constant battle of the wills ... I'd set him up straight and say, "stand" (halter on, chain over nose, lead rope hanging down to the floor), he start futzing around ... licking me, nibbling on me, biting me (getting smacked for that with a loud no) turning his head, moving one foot, moving another foot, trying to scratch himself ... I'd just keep putting him back into the original position and saying, "stand", then we'd go through all of the futzing around again ... so, FINALLY there was a first day that he stood completely still while I groomed him, picked his feet, brushed out his tail ... perfect. So, I praised him ... really gushing over his awesome so well-behaved self. So, then I removed the halter as I had been doing for the past four weeks, which meant he was free to turn around and walk out of the barn, which he always did ... except this time he didn't walk out of the barn ... instead, as I was leaning over to hang the halter up on the hook, he reached out and bit me on the @$$!!

I agree on horse sizes. Once a horse gets over 17 hands, they usually do not have very good conformation overall ... and that's what the ODGs used to say also. When they begin to get that big they begin to have weaknesses.

That said, the last horse that I was training for competition was a 17.2 thoroughbred. He was a rough ride. I couldn't ride him easily bareback which is something I really enjoy doing. Shark fin withers, HUGE trot, big movement through the back, not to mention if I fell off out in the woods I had to go look for a great big log or rock if I wanted to do anything besides walk him back home. However, I did love that particular horse very much. He was totally cool personality wise. He was one of the boldest horses I have ever ridden.

unbridledoaks
Sep. 8, 2009, 02:02 AM
With the market as it is, I still get inquiries on Dressage Ponies, atleast 5 emails a week asking what I have for sale. I find it interesting the comments that I get regarding the ponies that people are looking for. They aren't afraid to pay the price, just that they want a certain look and training.

I love riding ponies in Dressage, I have rode 11:3 hand ponies all the way up to the 14:2 hand mark, done very well with them. I'm FINALLY riding one of my own that I have bred and showing her under saddle. I love her so much. The last show I took her to, the judge made a point to come and find my stall to ask if she was for sale. I laughed and told her I have waited 13 years to have one of my own to ride, she is staying! LOL!!

Here is a headshot taken by my friend at the last show.
http://unbridledoaks.wishbroke.com/images/IMG_01232.jpg

BaroquePony
Sep. 8, 2009, 02:17 AM
I would say that if the judge wants to buy your horse that is quite a compliment :yes: She's very pretty.

unbridledoaks
Sep. 8, 2009, 03:04 AM
Thank you!! I should have put her info down :) This is Keeva, 3 Year Old Welsh Cob Mare, 14:1 hands. Sire is Danaway Sunny and Dam is Lascaux Cameo. Both parents I have shown to many championships, now it's her turn to prove herself in the show ring and she is doing quite well :)

BaroquePony
Sep. 8, 2009, 07:52 AM
unbridledoaks, is that you showing the liver chesnut in hand? That is just a gorgeous photo (and a very gorgeous pony). You both look so polished. Also, you again riding the buckskin? Much nicer to see the whole pony. Very nice pony. Very nice conformation.

unbridledoaks
Sep. 8, 2009, 12:10 PM
BaroquePony - Yep! That would be my first Dressage In-hand project. Yearling Section B Colt, he went on to win the class with a 78%. I sold him to a family who totally ruined him, as I thought he was going to be a child's pony. Thank you for the complements on Keeva! She is very special! I need to get some video of her riding up.

MistyBlue
Sep. 8, 2009, 12:23 PM
Ah crap, what a shame. He looks really nice in that photo. I'd like to see Keeva under saddle too.

BaroquePony
Sep. 8, 2009, 01:38 PM
I sold him to a family who totally ruined him, ....

I am so sorry to hear that. It can be so discouraging and heartbreaking sometimes.

BaroquePony
Sep. 8, 2009, 01:56 PM
exvet, you have some very beautiful cobs .... but I love that you appreciate them first and the competition second. Thank God. But I still think Monty is really cool. What an incredible amount of heart he must have.


Just some musings as I wait for my kids to wake up so we can hit the trail on our herd of ponies :cool:

I just have this image in my head .... running into a herd of cobs on the trail could be a formidable challenge :eek: getting pushed around by a bunch of nibbleing, nipping ponies ... kind of like "death by a thousand cuts".

Did you find that photo of the Welsch Perch Cross? I won't laugh, I promise. Really.

exvet
Sep. 9, 2009, 12:16 AM
Did you find that photo of the Welsch Perch Cross? I won't laugh, I promise. Really.

I did and I tried to scan them in. There were 4 I still had. Unfortunatley due to the quality (poor), the years of wear and tear (fading) and curling of the paper I can not get them to scan. So, I've put a call into my mother to see if she has any left. If she does I'll see if I can get those scanned in. She is much better at keeping momentos than I am.

If you picture a shrunken black (well black bay) perch with a ponytude, you've pretty much got my Sadie in mind. Her competition name was Me and My RC.

And thank you for the compliments on my welsh cobs. Monty is "special" for sure.

goodpony
Sep. 9, 2009, 11:37 AM
I'm FINALLY riding one of my own that I have bred and showing her under saddle. I love her so much. The last show I took her to, the judge made a point to come and find my stall to ask if she was for sale. I laughed and told her I have waited 13 years to have one of my own to ride, she is staying! LOL!!

We also get a lot of interest from judges, clinicians and trainers--rarely this season has a judge not stopped us to inquire about the ponies-who they are, what breed they are etc. There have been a few BNT who have tried to recruit us and at least one offering to ride/compete our stallion and another trying to buy him.

From my perspective it would seem that the ponies are being taken quite seriously and genuine interest in them from serious horse people is growing.

I too have just now started competing on one of my homebreds, he is four and we've just been working at getting our feet wet. I don't have a whole lot of experience showing in dressage--so our small success has been very personally rewarding.

As a pony breeder we have found that our involvement with the different warmblood registries has also generated a great deal of interest in what the ponies have to offer (in our case we are actively involved in both ISR/OLD NA-ISR Sport Pony and GOV/Weser Ems-german riding pony)

Icecapade
Sep. 9, 2009, 12:28 PM
I'd say its growing but a small market... albiet I am newer to this sport and have an Arab stallion who is on the super short side 13.1 or 13.2 with long toes and shoes :) and i'm 5' 8" so we aren't the best 'match' as far as numbers go but people rarely comment on it and he works his heart out for me no matter what we do.

I digress- my trainer was really reluctent to really train us due to his age, breeding, gender and size buuuuut was fairly iimpressed when we were on a consistent schedule for training.

for him I'd love to see him compete and be breed to some larger ponies and produce nice refined none tempermental horses but most people don't want the young pony to ride, they want the trained horse- thats the missing link I would say in the market- that and the kid drive is not as heavy as mentioned in the h/j world.

unbridledoaks
Sep. 9, 2009, 05:22 PM
As a pony breeder we have found that our involvement with the different warmblood registries has also generated a great deal of interest in what the ponies have to offer (in our case we are actively involved in both ISR/OLD NA-ISR Sport Pony and GOV/Weser Ems-german riding pony)

I think that it's wonderful that they are showing more interests in the ponies. I was thinking of getting my mare inspected with the ISR/OLD NA-ISR Sport Pony division just because they are showing more interests in the ponies.

goodpony
Sep. 9, 2009, 05:31 PM
I know doing the whole warmblood registry thing isn't for everyone (nor does everyone have a vested interest in breeding)...but I believe they (these pony registries) have done an excellent job of "marketing" ponies/smaller horses to a very large audience.

tempichange
Sep. 9, 2009, 05:55 PM
I think that it's wonderful that they are showing more interests in the ponies. I was thinking of getting my mare inspected with the ISR/OLD NA-ISR Sport Pony division just because they are showing more interests in the ponies.

Ditto. I go to where the flag waving support is and when I'm ready I'll take my mare(s) to GOV.

My current registry of choice(s) don't do as near as much promoting outside their current circuits as I like.

goodpony
Sep. 9, 2009, 07:26 PM
Ditto. I go to where the flag waving support is and when I'm ready I'll take my mare(s) to GOV.

My current registry of choice(s) don't do as near as much promoting outside their current circuits as I like.

Yep, this is exactly how I see it.

BaroquePony
Sep. 9, 2009, 08:08 PM
Ok, what does GOV stand for?

hluing
Sep. 9, 2009, 08:30 PM
GOV=German Oldenburg Verband ...but the pony equivalent is Weser-Ems.

eventerchick517
Sep. 9, 2009, 09:36 PM
Not to be off topic.....:p but is it worth it to have your pony registered when you're selling them? I've thought about trying to register my guy with the sportpony registry. However I'm slightly confused on a couple points. I'm rather hoping some of you breeder people can help...:D

Can you register a 9yr old gelding?
Is it still possible to register him even though I have NO idea about his breeding?

Sorry for the tangent.:D

goodpony
Sep. 9, 2009, 09:41 PM
Both the ISR/Old NA and the GOV/Weser Ems have a pedigree requirment. Without a pedigree and for nonbreeding stock...For the money you would spend on inspection/registration for your guy with something like the NASPR (which I dont think has a pedigree requirement) for a nine year old gelding you'd be better off putting it towards training/show experience. Or high quality video/photos to help you market him.

eventerchick517
Sep. 9, 2009, 09:45 PM
Ok. Thanks! I just though it sounded kinda fun. :D For a heinze 57 pony I think he does just fine. (but I might be a little biased:winkgrin::lol:)

BigBayBoy
Sep. 10, 2009, 12:43 PM
Usually, I just lurk through here, but I hope to be in the market next spring/summer for a dressage pony. I'm a petite, adult amateur and am hoping to find something that's more my size but still competitive in the dressage arena.

This thread has given me tons of good information and some good folks to contact, hopefully, when the time comes. Thanks so much. :)

ise@ssl
Sep. 10, 2009, 01:36 PM
We own the GRP pony stallion Popeye and own quite a few GRP and Welsh cross mares that are producing excellent medium and large ponies and honies. We see more and more that the US attitude that "ponies are for kids" is changing. Some of our mares are US bred and quite a few are imported. We are also now breeding fillies we bred to Popeye and other GRP's with great results. We originally started out breeding a small ISR mare to Makuba. I had seen the GRP's in Germany about 5 years before that and just loved them. The move like horses and it's amazing to see the youngsters riding them in Europe compeitively (even the stallions!).

We have marketed most of ours already started. We do find we can start them at 2 1/2 with no issues and they are ready to show spring of their 3 yo year. In Europe even adults ride them - men rode Popeye at his 30 day testing for jumping and cross country.

I do believe more youngsters who want to ride but don't want to jump will consider dressage and move over. As the do in Europe we do cross-train so they are jumped and ridden out. One of our oldest boys MacPherson is competing at NEDA this weekend and has great success all season with his owner and trainer.

Once people see these mini-warmbloods move they often change their minds about having an issue riding a pony or hony and it's often women who are tired of the 17+H horses who want to be competitive but want something more proportioned to their size. We currently have to large ponies in training at Hilltop and everyone is always amazed how balanced they are even when they start their training.

I'm confident we will see them more and more - we do see them at shows here in the NE and Mid-Atlantic region. Lendon put on a great demonstration about the ponies year before last at DAD and we were thrilled to have Popeye strut his stuff in the big ring for that event!

Dune
Sep. 10, 2009, 02:51 PM
Ditto. I go to where the flag waving support is and when I'm ready I'll take my mare(s) to GOV.

My current registry of choice(s) don't do as near as much promoting outside their current circuits as I like.

You may want to reconsider that, last time I checked GOV didn't look too kindly on the Section D's. Perhaps that has changed??? :confused:

YankeeLawyer
Sep. 10, 2009, 03:11 PM
One of our oldest boys MacPherson is competing at NEDA this weekend and has great success all season with his owner and trainer.
!

I loved, loved that one when he was at Hilltop.

Lyss
Sep. 10, 2009, 04:03 PM
You may want to reconsider that, last time I checked GOV didn't look too kindly on the Section D's. Perhaps that has changed??? :confused:

I have a 2009 colt by the Welsh section D stallion, North Forks Cardi, out of my GOV approved Trak/Arab mare. I had already received permission to have my colt inspected by Weser-Ems office in Germany based on Cardi's accomplishments before Cardi himself was inspected and approved this August by Weser-Ems. My colt was the very first eligible colt by Cardi to be inspected - he earned a premium!

MistyBlue
Sep. 10, 2009, 04:20 PM
I have a photo of my niece's draft pony for those wondering what draft ponies look like.
http://www.topcatfarms.com/images/cindydanmartylovieandwillow006.jpg
He's on free lease to a lesson barn...he was purchased as a pulling pony since that's what my niece and her SO compete with. I had borrowed him a time or two before as a companion since he gets along with any horse, he never made it as a pulling pony so she free leased him to Top Cat Farms for use as a lesson pony.
When I borrowed him and when he first went to Top Cat, Smoke (farm calls him Super Dan now) was a tad over 1200 lbs and he's only 54" which is I think 13.2hh. Pulling ponies are HUGE built. :eek: Since he's not kept bulked up for pulling and is doing dressage now, he's slimmed down a ton and looks petty good. I'd guess him more along the lines of 900 lbs maybe, give or take a few lbs.
He's a Perch cross...looks all Percheron though. Have no idea what pony breed he was crossed with. My niece bought him at a fair during a pulling competition, previous owner said he came from auction near the Mennonites in PA which is most likely New Holland. He does a surpisingly decent job in dressage, looks pretty cute and moves decently.

tempichange
Sep. 10, 2009, 05:57 PM
You may want to reconsider that, last time I checked GOV didn't look too kindly on the Section D's. Perhaps that has changed??? :confused:

Mine isn't your typical D. She's 3/4's D with 1/4 B blood in her. She's more refined.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v401/tempichange/Sinari%20Poulin%20Clinic%2008/P1030873.jpg

Dune
Sep. 10, 2009, 06:18 PM
Mine isn't your typical D. She's 3/4's D with 1/4 B blood in her. She's more refined.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v401/tempichange/Sinari%20Poulin%20Clinic%2008/P1030873.jpg


No, no, that's not what I meant yours is lovely (what is "1/4 B blood, btw? :confused:). Mine is too and not "typical", I know exactly what you mean.:winkgrin: In fact, she's mistaken for a GRP all the time (yes, I shave the feathers, bad me ;)) but last time I checked with them she would only be eligible for the Pre-Mare book because she's a " Section D" (they accept other sections of Welsh into Mare book) even though she's conformationally correct, great mover and her pedigree is outstanding. I'd love to know if they've changed this! :yes:

Dune
Sep. 10, 2009, 06:20 PM
I have a 2009 colt by the Welsh section D stallion, North Forks Cardi, out of my GOV approved Trak/Arab mare. I had already received permission to have my colt inspected by Weser-Ems office in Germany based on Cardi's accomplishments before Cardi himself was inspected and approved this August by Weser-Ems. My colt was the very first eligible colt by Cardi to be inspected - he earned a premium!

That's interesting and good to hear! :yes: Congrats! :) Is this a case by case thing then, see my above post and question about the Section D mares.

tempichange
Sep. 10, 2009, 06:23 PM
No, no, that's not what I meant yours is lovely (what is "1/4 B blood, btw? :confused:). Mine is too and not "typical", I know exactly what you mean.:winkgrin: In fact, she's mistaken for a GRP all the time (yes, I shave the feathers, bad me ;)) but last time I checked with them she would only be eligible for the Pre-Mare book because she's a " Section D" (they accept other sections of Welsh into Mare book) even though she's conformationally correct, great mover and her pedigree is outstanding. I'd love to know if they've changed this! :yes:

Section B. Welsh have four sections, A, B, C and D. Her sire was full D, her dam was 1/2 D and B.

I just chopped the feathers off. I hate dealing with them.

Lyss
Sep. 10, 2009, 06:28 PM
Tempichange,

Lovely mare! I sent you a pm!

tempichange
Sep. 10, 2009, 07:09 PM
Tempichange,

Lovely mare! I sent you a pm!

You got one back!

ponymom64
Sep. 10, 2009, 07:38 PM
I have a little video of our large pony being ridden dressage. I've been a hesitant to post it because it was the first time he's done that in about four years, it was the riders very first time on him AND he was being ridden on an uneven surface. So, it's not the best quality in a lot of respects. But I've really been enjoying everyone else's pictures and videos! You all have some NICE ponies :)

goodpony
Sep. 10, 2009, 09:24 PM
ponymom, I'd like to see your video can you share a direct link?

Misty That draft pony sure is cute! BBB you must be so excited to go pony shopping--there are a lot of wonderful ponies out there! I will never regret buying a pony for myself! Bit like having a second childhood having the pony you always wanted!

Dune
Sep. 11, 2009, 01:20 AM
Section B. Welsh have four sections, A, B, C and D. Her sire was full D, her dam was 1/2 D and B.

I just chopped the feathers off. I hate dealing with them.

Yes, I know about the different sections (see my post, ha;)) I didn't know you could have all that D blood and be registered as a B. Hmmm, learn something new everyday. Well then you'll have no prob with Weser-Ems, good for you for "sneaking" up on 'em! :yes: Totally agree with the feathers....:lol:

exvet
Sep. 11, 2009, 03:04 AM
Yes, I know about the different sections (see my post, ha) I didn't know you could have all that D blood and be registered as a B.

The rules are once a cob always a cob. An animal could have less than 12.5% cob blood in it yet per WPCSA rules it is still registered as a C or D depending on height. Though there are supposedly few cobs out there with such watered down blood, a few still exist (or at least are not listed as deceased yet as far as I know).

Those who know me, have heard me lament before about my fear of the sport pony movement and what deleterious effects it could have on the welsh cob. I do not want to see the breed refined to the point that you cannot recognized it as a welsh COB. I like the welsh COB for what it is suppose to be feathers and all. I have shaved the feathers off of Monty regularly because that is what my riding instructor has asked me to do though it has never fooled anyone. I do NOT plan to shave the feathers of Pro A Myrddin, Pro A Resolute, Gallod Morgan, nor any of the other purebreds I have in the future for the purpose of showing dressage. If mine do well I want people to know that it's a welsh cob first and foremost. It's why very few people know that Cosmo's sire is actually an approved GRP. She is shown as a 1/2 Welsh COB or Welsh COB cross.

If I wanted a sport pony and wasn't concerned with developing the breed along the breed standards then I would probably consider breeding a B to a Cob; but if I did do that it would be registered as something other than a welsh COB. I've worked hard to make sure that what I have is as true and goes as far back as possible to what the intentions of the breed were designed to be. I am glad that the warmblood orgs are reconsidering their stand on Section D blood even if it takes amazing achievements to do so.

The sad thing imo is that there have actually been VERY MANY when you consider the number of section Ds that have lived on this continent that have made it to FEI and done well. Cardi is not the first one to do it, nor do I suspect that he will be the last. I could give a pretty sizeable list of all welsh cobs - C & D who have made it to third level and beyond. It's ashame that it's taken until Cardi for such organizations to reconsider.

Y'all can water down the welsh cob if you like but there are those of us who know it's not necessary to do. Gerrig Quest comes to mind, multiple Madoc offspring, Kentchurch Chime, and the list goes on - all clearly welsh COBS. Keep in mind too that if you go back to claim the section B blood there was a time when that designation actually could have been a COB. The history of the nomenclature/stud book is interesting and confusing to follow at times.

I certainly don't begrudge the other breeds/types/registries. Actually I can appreciate, admire and consider going down those respective paths as a dressage enthusiast but the welsh COB has my heart. I hope that I am always able to look at a welsh COB and recognize it for what it is suppose to be....................when there comes a time that I cannot on a regular basis then I know it's time to get out.

OK off my soapbox. I know there are many who need to know that their welsh - cobs or others - are "accepted" into the here and now and branded types (meaning approved by the more accepted organizations/registries) especially since the mother ship (WPCSA) couldn't give a rats patootie what or how the welsh do in dressage. It's a huge reason why the successful dressage welsh cobs of the past have been forgotten and the current names are all that's remembered or known.

ponymom64
Sep. 11, 2009, 10:24 AM
ponymom, I'd like to see your video can you share a direct link?

Misty That draft pony sure is cute! BBB you must be so excited to go pony shopping--there are a lot of wonderful ponies out there! I will never regret buying a pony for myself! Bit like having a second childhood having the pony you always wanted!

All right, Goodpony - just for you! Be kind everyone - he has a few "WTF" moments but he was trying to figure out what he was supposed to be doing. Mostly, he "got" it but there are a few moments when his being out of shape cause a misstep (like when he swaps instead of holding the countercanter) or two.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRUuIcE13nw

BaroquePony
Sep. 11, 2009, 10:30 AM
MistyBlue, I really like your nieces draft pony. He is very cute. I like the draft ponies because they are so calm.

ponymom64, would love to see your video.

I have another pony here that I picked up. He is half haflinger/half quarter horse. He is so steady and calm.

Lisa Cook
Sep. 11, 2009, 10:47 AM
Ooh, are we posting videos now?

You Tube of me & my pony. :)

American Eventing Championships dressage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIg8l61sw_4)

exvet
Sep. 11, 2009, 10:59 AM
What nice ponies! - Lisa Cook, ponymom, & Mistyblue. Love seeing all the videos & photos. Now I must go out and ride my beasts since I just learned I have to head into work this afternoon; but will be checking in when and if I get back home this evening to see if there is more (keeping fingers crossed :winkgrin:)

goodpony
Sep. 11, 2009, 11:07 AM
Ponymom & Lisa C, both really nice ponies I enjoyed watching them.

BaroquePony
Sep. 11, 2009, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by exvet:

Those who know me, have heard me lament before about my fear of the sport pony movement and what deleterious effects it could have on the welsh cob. I do not want to see the breed refined to the point that you cannot recognized it as a welsh COB.

This is exactly why I have been afraid to rave about the Cob I just got. First of all, I can't imagine this breed being an acceptable mount for the average aspiring dressage rider.

I also must confess that this is the first equine that I have owned where I actually liked what I normally would consider to be conformation flaws. Max toes out a bit. I have never had a horse with anything but excellent legs (conformation wise). He walks like Charlie Chaplin (when viewed from the front, not from the side ... it's the short little cannon bones that do it). My vet says it ads to his "charm". He is butt high with shoes on the back, however he really can "sit".

I absolutely hate how so many breeds get ruined from breeding for certain traits until things become "extreme".

I didn't want a GRP ... although I did look at a couple. I wanted a full blood pony, NOT a pony watered down with horse blood.

exvet
Sep. 11, 2009, 01:18 PM
This is exactly why I have been afraid to rave about the Cob I just got. First of all, I can't imagine this breed being an acceptable mount for the average aspiring dressage rider.

A. Don't be afraid to rave. He's quite the looker.

B. Hee, hee, hee, hee, .......well I always have been one to march to the beat of a different drum [my own] I do think welsh cobs are an acquired taste. It's also amazing what they can overcome that per the textbooks are just plain faults.

C. It's that power..................that incredible power that if you can harness it and get it to work for you is like nothing else. Of course that's what I love about the welsh cobs.....I don't think one ever really harnesses it..........that on the edge feeling is one I think they allow a few of us to feel and it can be a real roller coaster ride at times but when everything is clicking..........yeah it's hard to describe.

D. I think "average" means someone who wants it the Burger King way - their way and have it now - not really the mantra of a welsh cob :winkgrin:

OK two welsh cobs down, now 2 more cobs and an Arab to go, then to work.

Dune
Sep. 11, 2009, 01:37 PM
Yes, I know about the different sections (see my post, ha) I didn't know you could have all that D blood and be registered as a B.

The rules are once a cob always a cob. An animal could have less than 12.5% cob blood in it yet per WPCSA rules it is still registered as a C or D depending on height.

Well, that's what I always thought too, but I figured she knew more about her Cob's registration than I did. ;)


Those who know me, have heard me lament before about my fear of the sport pony movement and what deleterious effects it could have on the welsh cob. I do not want to see the breed refined to the point that you cannot recognized it as a welsh COB. I like the welsh COB for what it is suppose to be feathers and all. I have shaved the feathers off of Monty regularly because that is what my riding instructor has asked me to do though it has never fooled anyone. I do NOT plan to shave the feathers of Pro A Myrddin, Pro A Resolute, Gallod Morgan, nor any of the other purebreds I have in the future for the purpose of showing dressage. If mine do well I want people to know that it's a welsh cob first and foremost. It's why very few people know that Cosmo's sire is actually an approved GRP. She is shown as a 1/2 Welsh COB or Welsh COB cross.

Honestly, even if I had a Friesian, I'd shave those darn feathers. For two reasons, I like to be able to see and feel the leg before and after work. Second, if they don't have GREAT hair, then the feathers just look sloppy. Ok, I guess there's 3 reasons, I also think it's easier to keep clean. I have a friend with a Friesian who's leg problem took longer to diagnose because it waited until he went lame because she couldn't see the slight swelling before it got out of hand. I've also seen quite a few of the feathered breeds develop scratches because it's just so much hair to clean and keep dry, not good in our climate. :no: I don't do it to "fool" anyone, not that I'm above that ;), it's just not my reason for doing so in this instance.


Y'all can water down the welsh cob if you like but there are those of us who know it's not necessary to do. Gerrig Quest comes to mind, multiple Madoc offspring, Kentchurch Chime, and the list goes on - all clearly welsh COBS.

I don't think any of us here want to "water down" the Welsh cob, but more like we realize what they have to offer some of the other pony breeds. Personally, some of the GRP stallions are lacking the bone I like to see, so I think some Cob mares bred to those stallions would result in stunning individuals. Also, I like a Cob that is still athletic and not "drafty" in any way. I have NO idea what breed standard is (went to a Welsh show and still couldn't figure it out:no:) but I know what I like and what I want to ride.

I certainly don't begrudge the other breeds/types/registries. Actually I can appreciate, admire and consider going down those respective paths as a dressage enthusiast but the welsh COB has my heart. I hope that I am always able to look at a welsh COB and recognize it for what it is suppose to be....................when there comes a time that I cannot on a regular basis then I know it's time to get out.

Don't worry, you'd still recognize *my* girl...it's just that we don't have ANY others around here and GRP is the closest thing that folks can come up with. :lol: (although they do say Wow, she's buff)


OK off my soapbox. I know there are many who need to know that their welsh - cobs or others - are "accepted" into the here and now and branded types (meaning approved by the more accepted organizations/registries) especially since the mother ship (WPCSA) couldn't give a rats patootie what or how the welsh do in dressage. It's a huge reason why the successful dressage welsh cobs of the past have been forgotten and the current names are all that's remembered or known.

The attitude of "Welsh shows or bust!" really does need to change. :yes:


l

exvet
Sep. 11, 2009, 02:24 PM
Second, if they don't have GREAT hair, then the feathers just look sloppy.

Yup that's Monty. My others though and the one I recently sold I think look better with their feathers. As for keepin' feathers clean, well, while I try to avoid a lot of flash/chrome I still have seem to have collected 2 w/ 3 white feet (socks/stockings), 2 with 2 white feet (socks/stockings), and Monty with his one white foot and the last two I sold had all 4 white; so, feathers or no I'm toast when it comes to trying to make things easy in that department. I also have been lucky in that scratches doesn't seem to be a problem for me and mine even when I had the herd of all 4 stockings in Missouri (wasn't for my Clyde x's or my perch x welsh gal either).

I like to see substantial bone. I like curves and power. I like big movement; but most of all I love pony character. So in general welsh cobs seem to do it for me.

There is a welsh cob x GRP mare for sale currently on dream horse. I've seen a few that do look nice. I have nothing against the crossing, really of any combination that is likely to produce the goal of a sport pony. I just don't ever want to get down the road and wish this or that had been preserved. Guess I'm just a foundation type of gal :winkgrin: Producing sport ponies - right on. Changing a breed to meet a fad or trend - sometimes you just can never go back and in this case I feel it would be a true waste since the breed has proven that it can deliver even if only on a small scale (no pun intended) :lol: As long as the two goals never get confused we can remain one huge happy family. :cool:

Tamara in TN
Sep. 11, 2009, 02:52 PM
As long as the two goals never get confused we can remain one huge happy family. :cool:


kum by ya my lord kum by ya....

gosh, I got a warm fuzzy feeling...:)

but I may also have the flu???

I think that there are enough sections to keep everyone happy....I do wish that we here would see them as four different breeds and not one breed with different coat patterns like some goofy kinda dachshund

Lord knows more than a few pure B's could go toe to toe with the GRP and BRP but some folks have been too busy catering to the hunter world to make that more than just a few...


best from Pumpkin-ville

Tiki
Sep. 11, 2009, 02:53 PM
I've downsized some of my WB mares with GRP's or Lesley Feakins super New Forest Ponies to get larges or oversize/cob sized ponies/honies. I'm not really aiming for the kid market as you have to have a lot of time into them to make them truly kid-safe - AND they have to be ridden and shown by kids (I don't have any) to prove that. I'm looking at the smaller/older woman who wants a sports car to take around the dressage arena rather than a Mack truck. My first ones are just coming old enough to start late this fall/early next year. I have them all inspected/registered with ISR Sport Pony Division and have had some very, very nice foals that made Premium. I'll be taking one, that is actually about 15.1h - out of a 15.1h mare with no height behind her, and a 14.2h pony with all pony behind him, to Devon in a couple of weeks to do the 2yo open colt and gelding class and the ISR Sport Pony class. he is an absolutely incredible mover and is really beautiful with a big, kind eye.

These GRP's and Sport Ponies, though large or slightly over, are a dream. They don't have that 'pony' attitude. They truly are mini-Warmbloods with all the movement, beauty and temperment to die for. Most of them don't have a true 'pony look' to them. If you saw one at a distance, with an appropriate sized rider on it, you would see a really nice, harmonious picture. When you get closer, you would be amazed to realize how small the pair is. It's just not like looking at a distance and saying, "Cute pony".

My pony/cob page is not up to date right now, but here are a few.

http://tranquilityfarm.com/Ponies_Cobs.htm

nightmoves
Sep. 11, 2009, 03:02 PM
Yes, I know about the different sections (see my post, ha) I didn't know you could have all that D blood and be registered as a B.

The rules are once a cob always a cob. An animal could have less than 12.5% cob blood in it yet per WPCSA rules it is still registered as a C or D depending on height. Though there are supposedly few cobs out there with such watered down blood, a few still exist (or at least are not listed as deceased yet as far as I know).

Those who know me, have heard me lament before about my fear of the sport pony movement and what deleterious effects it could have on the welsh cob. I do not want to see the breed refined to the point that you cannot recognized it as a welsh COB. I like the welsh COB for what it is suppose to be feathers and all. I have shaved the feathers off of Monty regularly because that is what my riding instructor has asked me to do though it has never fooled anyone. I do NOT plan to shave the feathers of Pro A Myrddin, Pro A Resolute, Gallod Morgan, nor any of the other purebreds I have in the future for the purpose of showing dressage. If mine do well I want people to know that it's a welsh cob first and foremost. It's why very few people know that Cosmo's sire is actually an approved GRP. She is shown as a 1/2 Welsh COB or Welsh COB cross.

If I wanted a sport pony and wasn't concerned with developing the breed along the breed standards then I would probably consider breeding a B to a Cob; but if I did do that it would be registered as something other than a welsh COB. I've worked hard to make sure that what I have is as true and goes as far back as possible to what the intentions of the breed were designed to be. I am glad that the warmblood orgs are reconsidering their stand on Section D blood even if it takes amazing achievements to do so.

The sad thing imo is that there have actually been VERY MANY when you consider the number of section Ds that have lived on this continent that have made it to FEI and done well. Cardi is not the first one to do it, nor do I suspect that he will be the last. I could give a pretty sizeable list of all welsh cobs - C & D who have made it to third level and beyond. It's ashame that it's taken until Cardi for such organizations to reconsider.

Y'all can water down the welsh cob if you like but there are those of us who know it's not necessary to do. Gerrig Quest comes to mind, multiple Madoc offspring, Kentchurch Chime, and the list goes on - all clearly welsh COBS. Keep in mind too that if you go back to claim the section B blood there was a time when that designation actually could have been a COB. The history of the nomenclature/stud book is interesting and confusing to follow at times.

I certainly don't begrudge the other breeds/types/registries. Actually I can appreciate, admire and consider going down those respective paths as a dressage enthusiast but the welsh COB has my heart. I hope that I am always able to look at a welsh COB and recognize it for what it is suppose to be....................when there comes a time that I cannot on a regular basis then I know it's time to get out.

OK off my soapbox. I know there are many who need to know that their welsh - cobs or others - are "accepted" into the here and now and branded types (meaning approved by the more accepted organizations/registries) especially since the mother ship (WPCSA) couldn't give a rats patootie what or how the welsh do in dressage. It's a huge reason why the successful dressage welsh cobs of the past have been forgotten and the current names are all that's remembered or known. I have a cross between a C and a B and he is registered as a Section C. I thought they changed the rule now though and you can't register a cross between the different sections as full registry. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

exvet
Sep. 11, 2009, 03:12 PM
I have a cross between a C and a B and he is registered as a Section C. I thought they changed the rule now though and you can't register a cross between the different sections as full registry. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

No, there has never been a rule that prevented the crossing in so far as the WPCSA is concerned. The WPCS did put that rule in place but later rescinded it.

The view of the WPCSA is that one drop of cob blood makes it a cob. Of course some of us cob breeders have a different opinion.

Oh and "T" - bite me :D

exvet
Sep. 11, 2009, 03:15 PM
Though I will die loving my breed, I will say that there are a few GRP babies in this area that are very, very nice. None of them look like a pony. There is one in particular that if I won the powerball and could "do it all" would make an offer 'cause she's going to be something. I really like her mother and her sire is FS Daily Hero I believe. Alas, money, time and age being what it is I'm left to make choices so it's the thick, course, chunky monkeys with "tude" that I'll continue to focus on.

Tamara in TN
Sep. 11, 2009, 03:15 PM
I have a cross between a C and a B and he is registered as a Section C. I thought they changed the rule now though and you can't register a cross between the different sections as full registry. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

as I understand it they are not ever allowed to be an A or B if they have any cob blood...the crosses below get full papers based on height or blood

so...

aa=a
ab=a or b
ac=c
ad=c or d if over height

bb=b
ba=b or a
bc=c or d if over height
bd=d regardless of height

ca=c
cb=c
cc=c or d if it goes over height
cd=c or d if it goes over height

da=c or d
db=d
dc=c or d
dd=d

best

goodpony
Sep. 11, 2009, 04:33 PM
I had an interesting experience recently that I wanted to share as it relates to this thread. This summer we took two purebred Connemara Mares to the Weser Ems (GRP) for Inspection. The Connemara Pony is an "Inspected Breed" we hold our own Breed inspections for breeding stock. Both of our mares have been presented to the ACPS (Am. Conn. Pony Soc.) for Inspection and both are ACPS Premium mares (there are maybe 10 Premium Titled Mares in the US at this time). What that means is both pony mares exceed the standard for the Connemara Pony Breed in Type, Conformation and Movement. In short both are very strong representatives of their breed.

In August both were presented to the Weser Ems for inspection. Both ponies made the Weser Ems main mare with scores that were excellent in all categories including type, conformation and movement. And both are Eligible to make Premium with the WE. Anyhow, What I think is interesting is that the scores received by both of my mares at both of their inspections (ACPS & Weser Ems) are remarkably similar if not identical. Apparently they are also both strong representatives of the GRP standard as well.

We have no desire to breed away from the standard of our special breed, they are what they are Connemara Ponies--but apparently we don't have too--at least not with respect to the results we received from the Weser EMs.

Tamara in TN
Sep. 11, 2009, 06:00 PM
Oh and "T" - bite me :D


what ??!?? my heart was burdened with song and it just popped out...really:)

wouldn't it be nice for both of us to score some BOD seats ?? at the same time ?? think of all the singing we could do then:lol::lol::lol::lol:

if they would get their hearts right about the Partbred Registry a lot of the drama could be eliminated re: cross section lovemaking

also, the red colt and the big 3 yo mare are at the "lightly started" point in their lives,finally:)

see ya

nightmoves
Sep. 11, 2009, 09:39 PM
as I understand it they are not ever allowed to be an A or B if they have any cob blood...the crosses below get full papers based on height or blood

so...

aa=a
ab=a or b
ac=c
ad=c or d if over height

bb=b
ba=b or a
bc=c or d if over height
bd=d regardless of height

ca=c
cb=c
cc=c or d if it goes over height
cd=c or d if it goes over height

da=c or d
db=d
dc=c or d
dd=d

best

Thanks for clarifying ladies I was going on what the previous owner told me this is my first Welsh.

exvet
Sep. 11, 2009, 10:35 PM
wouldn't it be nice for both of us to score some BOD seats ?? at the same time ?? think of all the singing we could do then

That and the black outfits we'd have to buy for the funerals from heart failure we'd be obligated to go to :winkgrin:

Good to hear about the progress too.......have I told you lately how much I love my boys? Ground drove Resolute all over the property. He is such a sweatheart. Getting anxious about Merlin, less than one month to go.

exvet
Sep. 11, 2009, 10:38 PM
We have no desire to breed away from the standard of our special breed, they are what they are Connemara Ponies--but apparently we don't have too--at least not with respect to the results we received from the Weser EMs.

That's good to hear/read for many reasons; however, I'm not too surprised because your breed is an accepted type. Mine is not so I'm not so sure we'd see the same type of parallel, that is, if our breed inspected its own (don't get me started on another tangent though ;))

BaroquePony
Sep. 11, 2009, 10:43 PM
What is it about the Cob that makes it so distinctive? Meaning, why is it so not accepted in some of either the welsh crosses or the GRP or whatever. It sounds like they consider it to be some sort of black sheep or something.

exvet
Sep. 11, 2009, 10:57 PM
It sounds like they consider it to be some sort of black sheep or something.

Red headed step child really..................................the concern of being too course, draft blood regardless of how many generations back and more. Actually I know of 3 welsh cobs that were imported from Germany, all approved GRP. We'll leave it at that so that this thread doesn't take an unwanted turn.

goodpony
Sep. 11, 2009, 11:05 PM
Just for my own education is the Welsh Breed inspected in other countries?

tempichange
Sep. 11, 2009, 11:51 PM
Just for my own education is the Welsh Breed inspected in other countries?

That would be a negatron :D

BaroquePony
Sep. 12, 2009, 12:24 AM
ponymom64, I really like your pony. He has a lovely head and neck ... quite elegant. Sure, he looks a bit out of condition, but super nice.

I have dial-up and the extra memory chip that I need for things to run faster on my computer is still sitting in the drawer waiting for me to put it into my computer ... so I am very slow to get to the videos :sigh:.

Tamara in TN
Sep. 12, 2009, 10:09 AM
Just for my own education is the Welsh Breed inspected in other countries?

not in Wales, but I am sure they are in the Netherlands and perhaps Germany

best

tempichange
Sep. 12, 2009, 11:33 AM
not in Wales, but I am sure they are in the Netherlands and perhaps Germany

best

From what I understand, a lot of those don't/aren't registered into the regular sections. That there is a section K.

BaroquePony
Sep. 12, 2009, 11:58 AM
Good Lord, what is Section K? The "Red Headed StepChild" Section?

goodpony
Sep. 12, 2009, 11:59 AM
some photos from the Neumunster PonyKorung (I think this is a kind of regional show/inspection). And these are Welsh Cobs (http://www.foto-job.com/shop/shop/USER_ARTIKEL_HANDLING_AUFRUF.php?darstellen=1&PEPPERSESS=5dvljj29spo5p6ut6pcgcjnqevvplh34&kategorie_0=3800&kategorie_name_0=2009&kategorie_1=3904&kategorie_name_1=Neum%26uuml%3Bnster+Ponyk%26ouml% 3Brung&kategorie_2=3903&kategorie_name_2=Welsh+Cob&level=2&Kategorie_ID=3903&update_dropdown=true&PEPPERSESS=5dvljj29spo5p6ut6pcgcjnqevvplh34)

Tamara in TN
Sep. 12, 2009, 01:38 PM
Good Lord, what is Section K? The "Red Headed StepChild" Section?

partbreds or geldings...


best

BaroquePony
Sep. 12, 2009, 01:44 PM
goodpony, thanks for the link to the cobs ..

exvet
Sep. 12, 2009, 03:16 PM
I'm not sure about the inspection/registration requirements for welsh in other countries. I do know that there are welsh, cobs included, who are inspected and allowed into some of the warmblood registries (pony) in the other countries. I too would actually be curious to know what if any inspection criteria there might be if such exists within the breed [in other countries]. I have worked a lot with holsteiners in the past and been through my share of approvals with that registry. Having that background, I of course would not be opposed nor discouraged to have something similar for our breed. I'm afraid it will not likely happen nor ever be well received with our registry and members.

I will say that the pictures goodpony posted definitely demonstrate recognizable welsh cobs <huge, huge grin>

BaroquePony
Sep. 12, 2009, 11:23 PM
I'm afraid it will not likely happen nor ever be well received with our registry and members.

Why?

exvet
Sep. 12, 2009, 11:27 PM
Why?

Well I invite you to join any of the pony lists with a high percentage of welsh breeders on them and ask/propose the topic. You could also go to a AGM and broach the topic. I've lived and learned. Now it's someone else's turn.

tempichange
Sep. 13, 2009, 12:20 AM
Why?

As someone who has publicly broached the subject at the AGM, as press corps at the time, it was met with a definite negative attitude. The answers ranging from, additional paperwork/tracking, to the "political" situation it would create, to who would judge/host, to dilution of the breed to a major turnoff to our major breeders. It was all named. This was in the same year that Glenhaven bred a purebred welsh cob that was fully marked pinto.

I for one would be in support of it. I think it would eliminate a number of issues and help give breeders reference to what they are producing year after year.

goodpony
Sep. 13, 2009, 12:42 AM
I just wanted to apologize as I didn't mean to distract from the original topic--ie market for dressage ponies. Was only trying to point out that some of these larger registries have helped to raise the profile of ponies in sport--especially dressage. I also thought it worth mentioning our experience with the two pony mares as I felt like one inspection only served to legitimize the other.

Since I belong to an inspected pony breed I can definitely attest to the whole process being under scrutiny right on down to the integrity of our breed inspectors. The loudest critics continue to be those who refuse to participate or are unhappy with results of either their own ponies or someone else's.

tempichange
Sep. 13, 2009, 12:51 AM
I just wanted to apologize as I didn't mean to distract from the original topic--ie market for dressage ponies. Was only trying to point out that some of these larger registries have helped to raise the profile of ponies in sport--especially dressage. I also thought it worth mentioning our experience with the two pony mares as I felt like one inspection only served to legitimize the other.

Since I belong to an inspected pony breed I can definitely attest to the whole process being under scrutiny right on down to the integrity of our breed inspectors. The loudest critics continue to be those who refuse to participate or are unhappy with results of either their own ponies or someone else's.

Eh. I started to get it off track a number of pages ago.

You're also preaching to the choir. I believe the process to have integrity and have a substantial educational value. It forces the participants to give a hard look at what they are producing for the breed itself.

BaroquePony
Sep. 13, 2009, 01:09 AM
Well I invite you to join any of the pony lists with a high percentage of welsh breeders on them and ask/propose the topic. You could also go to a AGM and broach the topic. I've lived and learned. Now it's someone else's turn.

What is AGM? I might be making an assumption here (never a good practice), but I feel the implication is that maybe they are not so much fun politically. Just a guess.

I got fed up with the world of competitive dressage a while back. I never leave my horse unattended or my rig unattended at shows anymore, which makes it more difficult. I know for every one of my friends who wants to see me get back into the competitive dressage arena, there are 1000 DQs standing around hoping my horse will break a leg.

I don't have a lot of patience with poor horsemanship or poor sportsmanship.

I have been pretty quiet about Max in part because I felt he was mistreated and abused going back a long way and I didn't want to get cornered by his breeder's and handlers .... I know I will reach a point where I come out and say some things that probably won't set too well with them. Just my perception, but based on past experience with the competitive dressage world.

I have already had pressure to be riding him in a correct first level test right now ... that's a joke. He had no correct dressage training at all that I can tell. Ridden totally front to back. He was being asked to do things without helping him balance at all. He was ring sour and bit sour. His sacroiliac was out. My vet says it will be fine. I haven't cantered him yet. It's not really a canter ... it's a commotion :lol:.

So, all I can say is he is a different horse from the day he stepped off that van, but he has a long way to go.

I am hesitant to meet the welsh breeders. I avoid the warmblood breeders like the plague. And the Lusitano folks were really over the top.

I do however have individual connections that I rely on to help me avoid getting killed out there in the world of competitive horse events :yes:.

I very much appreciate your posts.

exvet
Sep. 13, 2009, 01:10 AM
Goodpony - your point is actually a good one and imo pertinent to the OP's question. Let's discuss inspection and the value of such. Is it possible that you are seeing a 'decent' market because there are more "inspected" ponies in your area? Is there more market because there is more advertising, information, venues, etc? Do the inspections assist in these areas or the registry which hosts the same? or is it simply that because of inspection and the selection process your area sees a better/more capable animal?

I don't think you derailed the thread. Actually I think you've hit the nail on the head as to why some of US have seen minimal growth in the area of dressage ponies. I am not about to abandon my breed of choice but I will agree 100% that my breed registry does little to promote welsh in the sport. I also will admit that owning, breeding, training as well as showing a breed that is considered neither a horse nor pony gives it little place to really be. I do have a few that make the pony measurement but it's no secret that the one I have at FEI is not a pony. I hope to change that here in the not too distant future. I do not wish to change the standard of the welsh cob; yet, I wish there was some sort of inspection process to validate the capabilities of the breed - whether within the height limit of the pony or not. Instead it's currently up to the successes of the individual to showcase the breed's [pony's] ability.

So going back to the OPs question, what market is there for a 13.2 hand pony in the dressage venue? If it were inspected and "approved" by a warmblood or riding pony registry would it add value to that pony? Are people more turned on to the fact that such a pony has been approved thereby making more interest in a mount that's 13.2? I think the height automatically makes the pony's value in the dressage market somewhat limited. Of course the more fantastic it does, the more interest might be generated but there will still be a limited number of riders able to ride it even if it has the best disposition in the world. Now perhaps it could be used for breeding if it were an inspected mare but again you're looking at a narrowed scope of the dressage market in terms of interest.

exvet
Sep. 13, 2009, 01:21 AM
Well BaroquePony considering I've taken on more than my share of mishandled welsh, I do understand where you are coming from. You asked if the welsh cob was a black sheep. You already read my response to that specific question but if you do talk to any/many breeders of welsh/welsh cobs in particular you will find out soon that I am one of the black sheeps of the crowd. I am not well liked because of my sharing of my experiences and opinions much to the chagrin of certain breeders. I have been emailed, received telephone calls and hate snail mail because of my willingness to share. And I wonder why there is a limited pony market? :D Their opinion is that I'm killing it..................................:lol:

My apologies to the others....................but why PM when you can just wear on your sleeve :eek:

poltroon
Sep. 13, 2009, 02:08 AM
We have no desire to breed away from the standard of our special breed, they are what they are Connemara Ponies--but apparently we don't have too--at least not with respect to the results we received from the Weser EMs.

That's good to hear/read for many reasons; however, I'm not too surprised because your breed is an accepted type. Mine is not so I'm not so sure we'd see the same type of parallel, that is, if our breed inspected its own (don't get me started on another tangent though ;))

I am not a Welsh Cob expert but I would tend to agree with you there, that the cobs are heavier and have maybe more action and some other differences that are on type and appropriate for the cob (especially in section D) but are not really what the warmblood people are looking for. (I love the section C's especially and have always pictured KM Peyton's literary Toadhill Flax as the ultimate Section C. :) )

And I definitely appreciate the "appreciating the breed for what it is" and not trying to make it something it's not. In the Connemara breed, there was definitely some damage done trying to make them "mini-thoroughbreds" that took them away from the original character and strength. I believe that is why ACPS was able to come around to inspections, both because they inspect in Ireland and because it was obvious to the casual observer that American Connemaras had become highly, uh, variable, in type.

BaroquePony
Sep. 13, 2009, 02:49 AM
From what I have seen over the years, politics have had a negative effect on the art of dressage and good horsemanship. Effects both ponies and horses.

Ponies are a different subspecies (evolution) than horses. I like pony chacteristics and traits because they are ponies, not small horses. Hope to see it stay that way.

Tamara in TN
Sep. 13, 2009, 11:24 AM
As someone who has publicly broached the subject at the AGM, as press corps at the time, it was met with a definite negative attitude. The answers ranging from, additional paperwork/tracking, to the "political" situation it would create, to who would judge/host, to dilution of the breed to a major turnoff to our major breeders. It was all named. This was in the same year that Glenhaven bred a purebred welsh cob that was fully marked pinto.

I for one would be in support of it. I think it would eliminate a number of issues and help give breeders reference to what they are producing year after year.

the reasons vary so wildly but I do think it comes down to change sucks and lots of VERY old breeders were not raised in that enviroment...

and among these old breeders there is a lot of built up animosity...30 or sometimes 40 years worth...ask one about a judge and they say "oh god not her she likes the way hackneys move uggh" and another "oh no!raised as a hunter judge and too stupid to know proper movement"

at the very least that could stallion inspect for parrot mouth and one ballers that suggestion was met with:

"but some vets don't know how to judge a parrot mouth,why do we leave a vet who does not know the breed to judge this???" as if parrot mouth in different breeds looks different...

I kid you not...

well gotta go open a corn maze;) see ya's!

best

goodpony
Sep. 13, 2009, 01:34 PM
I believe breeding approval is only part of the equation. For example I own a pony stallion. He is approved for breeding with three separate registries. He has also successfully completed and passed the equivalent of a european style 30 day test for pony stallions. He has also been successfully competed in in hand, open dressage, combined training and show jumping. He has earned a Performance Star from the ISR Sport Pony Division as well as Gold Medals in Hand and Under Saddle from his own breed society. His children (both pure and partbred) have been very successful on the line in open sport horse, confined breed and National Pony Society M&M. And he has offspring both pure and partbred registered with all three registries. In short he stands on his record, the success of his offspring and not just his licensing---all of these elements contribute to my ability to market him.

I think sometimes people get confused between approvals and registration. For example all of my breeding stock is registered Purebred Connemara and is Approved for breeding Weser Ems. When our next crop arrives they are eligible for registration as Weser Ems. My younger filly Taylor is in fact second generation approved Weser Ems and her foal will be the third generation from this female family (but her foal will be the second to be registered as such).

I think Inspections/Approvals/titles etc. are great with the goal of breeding in mind. But I also think it is just one small part (the first step for many) towards establishing & marketing an individual program. Like someone mentioned before some of these registries have huge visibility (through print, web and other resources) while others do not. I believe this "visibility" has a trickle down effect on the market place that directly benefits its membership.

On a personal level, I would say that by participating in the inspections/approvals process has allowed me to connect personally with a more main stream audience (other professional/amateur horsemen and women (breeders/riders/trainers) outside of my breed association. The same could be said for the competitive venues we participate in. My region is very horsey, very well educated and very competitive. I would say the ponies I see out competing successfully are above average in both quality and education. I believe this is in part due to the accessibility to good training and competition. Our shows may lack the prestige of something like Devon but are absolutely on par with respect to turnout, quality and performance.

exvet
Sep. 13, 2009, 04:11 PM
I think Inspections/Approvals/titles etc. are great with the goal of breeding in mind. But I also think it is just one small part (the first step for many) towards establishing & marketing an individual program. Like someone mentioned before some of these registries have huge visibility (through print, web and other resources) while others do not. I believe this "visibility" has a trickle down effect on the market place that directly benefits its membership.

First, thank you for answering my questions. As I've told you before so you must know, I realize that your program is based on much more than just approvals, licensing and "gratis". However, marketing is just that. It's getting the product out there, name recognition, creating demand and creating the sensation or perception of "need." I personally found the approval process very educational and helpful in telling me what direction things were headed; however, I also know that politics did exist but at least most results were easy to translate into some type of objective measurement system.

I agree that people get confused between approval/licensing/registration. I come to this from the holsteiner world where you could have a registered animal from two approved parents but there was still merit (no pun intended) in taking that registered animal through the approval process as well especially from the standpoint of being a breeder. I think it lends validity and credence to your product in the eyes of another if big wig so-and-so stated that your horse has a trot of 8, walk of 9 yada, yada. Now I"m really not making light of it all, as I said I found the whole process helpful and very educational. In the end for someone like me though it's really how they produce - be it performance or in get that makes or break the deal.

Yet, people like predictors, forecasting, buying into that investment mentality. It's on this premise I think those who follow a path as you do will eventually see the fruits of their labor - but as you stated it, you have a lot more to back it up with and probably would see the same end even if you didn't go through the approval process. It would just likely take a lot longer and you wouldn't get that added benefits of the marketing/advertisements/etc that comes with participating and being successful in the eyes of these types of registries. Those who haven't been in horses forever utilize such parameters to guide their decisions. I can't believe that it would be much different for ponies IF we're talking about mounts for adults. When you get to focusing on children some of the rules we play by do change - parents want safe and successful and usually easy too.

So is the answer to gaining market share for dressage ponies getting more ponies inspected or produced from inspected stock? Are we getting anywhere close to following inspection scores out to reality in performance on any large scale? I am sincerely asking because as has been stated I have a breed that does not really have that option. Again it won't cause me to change breeds but I can still choose and pick my options based on what I learned and what I see is happening in other circles without compromising my desire to keep true to the standard.

Now let's bring up standards shall we? For both the Connemara and the Welsh cob specifically if one reads the standards independent of the breed label, wouldn't you expect any animal conforming to those standards to be an athlete capable of most sports? So in reality as long as one recognizes what the standard really is saying, is able to apply it to their breeding program then inspections/approvals really aren't necessary to produce a capable animal. We (those who truly adhere to their respective breed standards) should all be able to spot and/or produce a shorter stature beast capable of whooping some larger horse hiney in the dressage court :winkgrin:

If you agree with such a premise then the inspection/approval process is simply telling someone else that it's OK to like it. Now THAT is real marketing. Make sense?

goodpony
Sep. 13, 2009, 09:58 PM
I definitely don't have all the answers--but I believe those "results" are already on the horizon. I believe our success--anybodies for that matter---will largely be determined by those individuals who have the ability to produce, train and promote their own stock (both inside and outside of the registries)---in other words people who can deliver a quality, finished product. It doesn't end there either, the 'right stuff' must end up in the right hands---ultimately, every breeders goal.

With respect to the CP breed standard, No, I would not expect every pony that meets the minimum requirements (and inspected into the studbook) to be athletic or even typical. I have even less faith in those individuals who choose not to participate at all. The minimum is just that--the minimum. As Poltroon pointed out there is tremendous variability in our breed with respect to "type"---and even less agreement on what "type" is or should be (in regards to meeting a "uniform standard.") Still, as a breeder, I feel that our (CP) Inspections/approval program is doing what it can to educate those who choose to participate and are open to this sort of learning environment.
I would like to add that while I don't feel we are entirely free from 'politics" in our breed---I believe the results we have received for each of our ponies has been both fair and accurate. If anything our results from the Weser Ems/ISR has only served to validate my point. Bit like getting a second opinion from an independent expert?

Bottom line, inspections/approvals etc. is only one part of a much larger picture. There are definitely a lot of different ways to get to rome. My most marketable ponies are those that can be handled/ridden/shown by the largest number of individuals.

exvet
Sep. 13, 2009, 10:32 PM
Again thank you for playing ball with me. I appreciate your responses as well as your experience. Obviously there is quite a bit of variation within the welsh breed too. Despite that I do believe that those that stick to the standard(s) as written will produce an athletic animal capable of holding its own with the dressage venue. I do believe a lot of it has to do with the pony getting into the right hands, though, to be seen through/proven. I don't believe that the standard needs to be changed or modified to produce a more athletic, competitive animal. Now maybe it needs to be modified to produce something that meets with modern trends and more aesthetically pleasing to some who prefer the smaller warmblood look; but, I hope it never comes to that.

Unfortunately I do not think performance success is enough to drive a market when the market ends up being a subset of one already in existence. While inspections and approvals help validate one's program, I also think they cater to some of the desires of the sport market. At least you appear to have found the right mix. Hopefully "that mix" will spread to more areas of the country.

I sure would love to see more Pony Power out there. Good luck to you and yours. I'm sure we'll be seeing your crew gracing more pages of publications and headlining USDF (and other discipline) announcements in the future.

poltroon
Sep. 14, 2009, 01:37 AM
There is no doubt in my mind that getting the right ponies into the right hands is key, and one of the reasons I'm in awe of goodpony isn't just that they've accumulated an enviable set of ponies, but also that they're doing a fabulous job of getting all the ponies out there and schooled and seen. I need to be doing a better job of that with my own pony.

exvet
Sep. 14, 2009, 02:37 AM
I need to be doing a better job of that with my own pony.

Well good luck to you too and your future endeavors. Perhaps you'll see more interest and growth in the pony market in your area as a result. Though I've been doing it on an amateurs budget, funding each and every one on my own, I haven't seen things change significantly in the last 10 years. We use to get to approximately 8-10 recognized shows a year and closer to 16 or so schooling shows a year with a trailer load. Due to the economy, we now only make it to 4-6 recognized shows a year and 10 or so schooling shows with fewer ponies at a time. We do run the gamut of levels though which would seem to showcase their abilities but no additional and no less interest generated. Of course I do not stand a stallion to public stud and I currently have none for sale so my purpose for showing hasn't been to generate sales or to support a business of any form. I just find it odd that over the last 10 years things really haven't change greatly. I guess it's just my area or maybe the breed or even the rider ;).

BaroquePony
Sep. 14, 2009, 07:39 AM
goodpony's goodpony.net website locks up my browser and then shuts it down. That should not be happening even if I haven't added my extra memory chip and I am still using dial-up. There is something on the site that is actively effecting my browser before anything gets fully loaded. I believe my virus protection is shutting down my access to the site. That does not necessarily mean that there is a virus involved, but it sometimes indicates that there is some coding on the site that is not "W3 complient" and isn't universally readable by all computers OR there is a hole somewhere on the site that has been overlooked. Just thought you might want to know that.

Is that web site built using W3 complient coding?

butlerfamilyzoo
Sep. 14, 2009, 09:34 AM
Exvet:
I think the reason you havent seen a change in local interest towards pony breeds even though you have been out promoting them in your own way is that ponies in general, and yes even that 14.3-16h size that "no one" wants, was just not acceptable for adults by the big wigs of dressage. You have no idea how many times in my life i've been told i need a larger mount... Why? I'm only 5'3... But i "NEEDED" a larger mount???

I think greatly due to the internet and Cardi's fam promoting him so well, all of a sudden, BOOM, its acceptable. Cardi was in a clinic with Debbie McDonald who was frankly very impressed and said we need to be working towards breeding more like him... Uh... What rock does she live under? But if that is the thought of some of the upper echelon of riders/trainers then we pony people as a whole have not done enough marketing for ourselves yet.

GRPs coming to the US i think has opened up peoples minds as well. Thanks to the internet and now more availability to shipped semen from overseas, breeders have such a broader selection than what they once did. They can get online and search, see all those adults riding those GRPs, and yes kids too, but see that they are really DOING things and it just makes it more acceptable somehow.

I personally would love to see inspections become a part of the Welsh registration/approval process... However, i think because our breed is not looked at by its registry and many of its old breeders as "SPORT" ponies in the word we use sport... Thinking welsh shows and of the sad little jumps with riders who have no business jumping yet, and the western classes, and the in hand classes that no way shape or form look similar to an in hand dressage class... etc... It would only benifit those of us in the breed that are using our welsh, be it any section, for eventing, jumping, or dressage on a grandeur scale. How many are out there like us? Maybe 35-40 people in the whole US? Boy, that might even take some head scratching to come up with that many!

The CP does not have shows in the US like the welsh, at least i have not ever heard of any? So i do not see them as hampered as the welsh is as being stuck in this "breed show" mentality. CPs have always been bred as more of a "sport" type of pony. I think that is why they are much more widely accepted in the eventing/dressage ring. People think of cobs, they think heavy draft type pony that pulls a cart... We have a lot going against us if you really think about it, even most of our ponies are not built for the ideal sport conformation, but boy can they kick butt with heart and movement that came out of no where. :D

It was a couple pages back and i dont remember who wrote it, but i would dearly LOVE to see the different sections split into "breeds" of welsh. They may be similar in many ways, but are SOOO different on more important levels.

I cant really say much more because frankly, i havent dove into the welsh world like the others here have. I gave up politics when i left arabs 10yrs ago. I have shown at a whopping ONE welsh show, and yes, politics beat my pony. Though i have to say, i met some wonderful people and really liked the more "family friendly" type of show vs the arab world i grew up in. I'm sure it will not be my last welsh show.

I'm also not extremely competitive, at least not yet. But rated shows really do not matter to me, i get just as much if not more fun and advice at schooling shows. I have noticed this area needs more ponies too, as i think i'm the only one, that i have met thus far... Being right here near Aiken, i expected a broader range of sport ponies being used for eventing, but i havent seen it. I've gotten a few sneers for riding ponies myself and even heard some terribly hateful things being said about my cob AT A SCHOOLING SHOW! So i think a lot of minds still need to change around here. Doubt that i'll be the one to do it.

This has been a great discussion! I've enjoyed following it.

nightmoves
Sep. 14, 2009, 11:01 AM
Just curious here regarding the crossing of the different sections of Welsh. Why does a breeder cross one section to another? That is what my guy is, dam is section C, sire is section B.

Tamara in TN
Sep. 14, 2009, 11:10 AM
Just curious here regarding the crossing of the different sections of Welsh. Why does a breeder cross one section to another? That is what my guy is, dam is section C, sire is section B.




well everyone has different ideas about breeding:

some people actually believe they are making something "new" or "different"

some people breed only to win breed classes

some people breed for the hunter movement in both a and b's

some people breed what they got;)

some folk breed the Partbreds

some folks are purists and breed only in section

some people are pedigree nuts and think only about what the papers say

some people well.......lord only knows:winkgrin:


best

Ambrey
Sep. 14, 2009, 11:19 AM
goodpony's goodpony.net website locks up my browser and then shuts it down. That should not be happening even if I haven't added my extra memory chip and I am still using dial-up. There is something on the site that is actively effecting my browser before anything gets fully loaded. I believe my virus protection is shutting down my access to the site. That does not necessarily mean that there is a virus involved, but it sometimes indicates that there is some coding on the site that is not "W3 complient" and isn't universally readable by all computers OR there is a hole somewhere on the site that has been overlooked. Just thought you might want to know that.

Is that web site built using W3 complient coding?

It's valid, it seems to be a javascript issue.

And as repayment for that little tidbit of information, I need more pony pictures ;) Wait, look, there are some on that website! Thanks!

nightmoves
Sep. 14, 2009, 11:29 AM
well everyone has different ideas about breeding:

some people actually believe they are making something "new" or "different"

some people breed only to win breed classes

some people breed for the hunter movement in both a and b's

some people breed what they got;)

some folk breed the Partbreds

some folks are purists and breed only in section

some people are pedigree nuts and think only about what the papers say

some people well.......lord only knows:winkgrin:


best
He does come from a reputable breeder I just thought there had to be some reason for the cross.

Tamara in TN
Sep. 14, 2009, 11:38 AM
He does come from a reputable breeder I just thought there had to be some reason for the cross.



pm me and I might be able to tell you why :)

MediaMD
Sep. 14, 2009, 01:02 PM
This has been a fascinating thread...thanks for starting it. We've been pony fans for many years and can attest to the value of a pony schoolmaster. My then 11 yr old daughter Erin went in one year from SS hunters to competing very well at 2nd level and in FEI TOC classes against adults on horses riding Wynnbrook Starburst, Leigh Smith's Welsh stallion. He tried SO hard to figure out what she wanted that he was as critical to her development as a dressage rider as the trainer was.

Based on that experience, we bought a Wynn baby and he was everything his sire had--trainability, athleticism, forgiveness for mistakes and wonderful gaits. We sold him very reluctantly two years ago only because he was ineligible for the FEI Junior tests (that's another battle that must be fought). However, despite his true schoolmaster status after his dual championships at Lendon Gray's Dressage Festival at 2nd level and fEI Pony, we expected to sell him very quickly to another junior rider wanting to do the FEI pony dressage classes. In addition he had the added benefits of being an excellent 3- 3 6"jumper, and was safe to gallop in a field with just a halter. Not so!

Pretty much the only interest we had was from adults--mainly eventers--based on his AEC experience and eventing record. We were baffled at the lack of an FEI Pony schoolmaster market since these ponies are in such demand in Europe and the interest SEEMS to be growing here. We did sell him to a wonderful home to an adult eventer who had had some hair raising experiences on CX on a horse, and since riding this 14.2 ASP, has regained her confidence and success in HT and in the hunt field.

We've since bought another pony x--this time through the VT auction and were thrilled to find her and astonished at again, the lack of interest from other potential buyers. She is by Nancy Ferebee's GRP stallion "FS Daily Hero" and she has everything we love about him--fluid flowing gaits, an inquisitive intelligent nature, very people centered and incredibly easy to train. "Daily Grace" is registered ISR and should finish out at 15.2-15.3, and will be perfect for Erin who is 5'5" and 115lbs and hopes to take Grace to GP.

I just don't understand the unwillingness of buyers to buy something with "pony blood" when that pony blood has been priceless in our experience for good feet, smart trainable minds, very cat like athleticism, enthusiastic work ethic and an "up for anything" attitude. We've only had experience with Wynnbrook Starburst and Nancy Ferebee's GRP stallions but they have proven to be excellent sires whose offspring are truly a delight to ride and own.

Why buy a mac truck when you can have a sports car for half the money and do stuff you wouldn't think of trying on a big WB-- a hunter pace one one day, a dressage show another day, a bareback games day, an endurance ride or a trail ride another,and just a great way to teach little kids how to have fun in the backyard on something that will REALLY teach them how to ride. There's just nothing like a pony, or a pony X to add spice to your life.;-)

Dressagechik
Sep. 14, 2009, 02:57 PM
webmd, that is pretty much what is happening to my family now as we are trying to sell my pony that I've very sadly outgrown. My pony is not as well trained as yours (first level comptetitor and 6 years old) but he has a ton of talent. He's not a purebred GRP or something like that, he's half Hanoverian and half Arabian, but he is a Donnerhall grandson, with a great work ethic and just a ton of fun to ride. He really is my little 'sports car' and I know he could make it to FEI. He'll probably be ready to be introduced to the double next spring/summer and do some competing at second level as well.

We've been advertising on and off for the past year and we have had only one person make the trip to come and ride him, and she was an older woman who basically just wanted a riding companion. And she made an offer on the spot before her husband decided my pony was too out of their price range. Pretty much all of the people who have expressed interest in him were middle aged amateur women who didn't plan on competing or did some mild eventing. I just wish I wasn't 5'9 so I can keep riding him! =)

butlerfamilyzoo
Sep. 14, 2009, 03:34 PM
Dressagechick- Who cares! Ride him anyway! Coming from the arab world, there are many a 6' man riding horses under 15h... :) If the pony has the power to take on the world, why on earth would you care if you looked a little big on it?

I think you have another "stigma" going against you due to the half-arab breeding. The arab market in general really plummeted about 10-15yrs ago. While the addition of the arab sport horse classes/nationals has really boosted the arab/half-arab presence in the "sport horse" world, arab's in general are just not thought of as "kid ponies." Yes, there are silly ones, but the best horses/ponies i've ever owned were arabs with the exception of my cob mare. So i cant buy into the stigma others put on them. That being said, i wont own one again because i've lost THOUSANDS trying to sell them. Not that you dont have that in every breed, but it seems to be worse in arabs/half-arabs. That and the fact that there is a flood of proven first level horses on the market in all price ranges, so that is a hard market anyway. I would suggest continuing on with him and sell him when he's going about 3rd. I think your market will increase.

But that's derailing the thread a little here. :)

I still say keep riding him! You just cant outgrow ponies, i'm sorry. I dont care how dorky you may look, the pony doesnt care, and if you dont, then march into that ring and knock the judge's socks off with all that potential and talent. :)

Even the welsh world is full of tall adults riding 13h... Check out the pics of Goodpony's husband on her CPs, and he's showing out in public. What i think looks retarded is the woman being run away with by her 17h elephant because she is WAY over horsed...

nightmoves
Sep. 14, 2009, 03:48 PM
Well now I don't feel so bad. I'm 5'3" and my pony is 12.3 :) I would certainly like it if he were and hand or two taller. He sure can be hard to stay in the middle of.

goodpony
Sep. 14, 2009, 04:16 PM
Yep' my dh is 5'11 and 180lb. The pony is 14.1hh. Together they have qualified for our gaig/usdf championships in October. They are also just two scores away from their usdf bronze medal. It may not be a perfect picture but they are not being penalized for it. In fact most recently they achieved a "personal best" of 69.8 and three "9's" at first test 4.

butlerfamilyzoo
Sep. 14, 2009, 04:33 PM
here you go, 5'3 on 12.3h... It really doesnt look as dorky as you think it does.
http://kaydanfarms.com/kayla_Poa-231x214.jpg

She looks stout in that pic, but she really wasnt, so i fully understand the sentiment of trying to stay in the middle... :lol: Little sucker could jump the moon too. Kind of a very blah marked POA, but she's worth her weight in gold for the two little girls that now own her. ;)

I had more pics, but the links wont work. So phooey...

The more people see adults on ponies, the more it wont look so dumb and we can change the image.

unbridledoaks
Sep. 14, 2009, 09:32 PM
Ride the smaller ponies! I'm 5'3 and I have rode the 11:3 hand ponies, and won my classes. Attached is a picture of a Section B 12:2 hand stallion that I rode and did very well on him. Of course, this picture was during a hunter class.
http://wishbroke.com/jpgs/UnionJack_1630s.jpg

goodpony
Sep. 15, 2009, 11:20 PM
Success-our two beautiful purebred Connemara pony mares passed the old/Weser ems mare performance test. The comments were awesome- and what agreat experience. Our senior mare glenormiston Amelia also won 1 st annual Weser ems pony class with the comment "perfect breed type"-I was absolutely thrilled.

Dressagechik
Sep. 16, 2009, 06:28 PM
Dressagechick- Who cares! Ride him anyway! Coming from the arab world, there are many a 6' man riding horses under 15h... :) If the pony has the power to take on the world, why on earth would you care if you looked a little big on it?

I think you have another "stigma" going against you due to the half-arab breeding. The arab market in general really plummeted about 10-15yrs ago. While the addition of the arab sport horse classes/nationals has really boosted the arab/half-arab presence in the "sport horse" world, arab's in general are just not thought of as "kid ponies." Yes, there are silly ones, but the best horses/ponies i've ever owned were arabs with the exception of my cob mare. So i cant buy into the stigma others put on them. That being said, i wont own one again because i've lost THOUSANDS trying to sell them. Not that you dont have that in every breed, but it seems to be worse in arabs/half-arabs. That and the fact that there is a flood of proven first level horses on the market in all price ranges, so that is a hard market anyway. I would suggest continuing on with him and sell him when he's going about 3rd. I think your market will increase.

But that's derailing the thread a little here. :)

I still say keep riding him! You just cant outgrow ponies, i'm sorry. I dont care how dorky you may look, the pony doesnt care, and if you dont, then march into that ring and knock the judge's socks off with all that potential and talent. :)

Even the welsh world is full of tall adults riding 13h... Check out the pics of Goodpony's husband on her CPs, and he's showing out in public. What i think looks retarded is the woman being run away with by her 17h elephant because she is WAY over horsed...

I should have also mentioned that i'm also going to college next year. So my tallness is not the only factor. I've seen pictures of me riding him and I dont think I look that tall on him. Whenever I ride my sister's 16.3 tank of a dutch warmblood, I'm always more than happy to hop back onto my pony :cool: I so wish I didn't have to sell him, but I'm going to be in college for the next 8 (:eek:) years and he definitely needs undivided attention to get to the level where he could be at. But, we aren't in a huge financial rush to sell him or anything like that, so, I'll just keep riding him and pushing up the levels until we do :).

Personally, I would really like to get up to solid 2nd-3rd level then sell him as I agree the market would be better for him, but I'm not the one paying the training bills. ;) At the moment we have a 13 y.o. girl who will be trying him out sometime this month. It sounds like a great situation, but we'll see how that goes, until then, I'm very happy just riding him :D