Heaven,Church,Souls,Horses/Dogs?! [Archive]

Manes&Tails

Sep. 4, 2009, 01:57 PM

HuntJumpSC

Sep. 4, 2009, 02:03 PM

I think it may be time to find another church. Every living, breathing thing on this earth has a soul, no matter how big or small. What an insensitive thing for this man to say to you, especially in the situation you are in. :mad:

Best wishes to you, I hope your situation improves! {{Hugs}}

MunchkinsMom

Sep. 4, 2009, 02:04 PM

That has to be one of the most heartless things I have heard in a long time.

Of course animals have souls and a place in heaven!

Wishing you better luck asap. Wish I had some words of wisdom to help you in this difficult time.

stanza

Sep. 4, 2009, 02:08 PM

Awww Mains and Tails, that was just a very cruel thing for anyone to say to you. I think this is such a misconception on everyones part. First of all, the Bible doesn't say much about animals at all in this regards. But we do know that it talks about a "new heaven and a new earth." Well, we know that God created earth and then the animals to occupy the earth. So, I feel we will see our animals again some day, and will enjoy them on a perfect earth, the way God intended.

I do think you need to be responsible with what God has given you. If you find you can no longer take care of your animals, then, yes, you should find a better home. But that should be your decision, no one else.

God bless and (((hugs))),
Joan

equineartworks

Sep. 4, 2009, 02:10 PM

What a piece of crap this guy is...

If anything, animals can be the glue that hold us together when we are experiencing great loss. My own dog literally saved my life and led me to what I am doing now with horses. Obviously this church hasn't read anything about the role of animals in a therapeutic setting and in end of life issues as they pertain to spirituality?

Maybe I should become more active in my church, I would hope they aren't this backwards?

Honey, if we are going to Hell for caring for the animals then at least we will have LOTS of company. And frankly, I'd rather be in Hell with the passionate, caring and selfless people I have met who care for animals than with the many flaky self absorbed losers I see in Church each week. :yes:

Pony Person

Sep. 4, 2009, 02:13 PM

Honey, if we are going to Hell for caring for the animals then at least we will have LOTS of company. And frankly, I'd rather be in Hell with the passionate, caring and selfless people I have met who care for animals than with the many flaky self absorbed losers I see in Church each week. :yes:
That reminds me of a great quote: "I may be going to Hell, but at least my all my friends will be there with me!" :lol:

((((hugs)))) What a cruel thing to say.:no:

Carol Ames

Sep. 4, 2009, 02:16 PM

think it may be time to find another church. Every living, breathing thing on this earth has a soul, no matter how big or small. What an insensitive thing for this man to say to you, especially in the situation you are in. :mad:

Best wishes to you, I hope your situation improves! {{Hugs}} __________________

foundationmare

Sep. 4, 2009, 02:16 PM

Manes and Tails,

I will not speak from my soapbox, but what exactly is the purpose of that man's vocation?

What he says is cruel and heartless. He would have you part with your beloved animals and find comfort and solace in....HIM? Had he been in my house (and he wouldn't have been), he would have been asked to leave, never to darken my door again.

Find a new spiritual advisor is my advice. Seek the support you need from friends and sympathetic congregants. And best wishes to you for brighter days ahead.

twofatponies

Sep. 4, 2009, 02:16 PM

mjhco

Sep. 4, 2009, 02:17 PM

Carol Ames

Sep. 4, 2009, 02:25 PM

I have just become acquainted with a book by the title "Love, the ultimate apologetic"; and realize that Love IS the ultimate apologetic:cool:'; It sounded to me that this man needs to take the course taught by he author of that book; and apply it in his counseling:yes:; the course begins next month (at the C. S. Lewis Institute);)

twofatponies

Sep. 4, 2009, 02:38 PM

And for those who say there are no animals in heaven, I ask about the Rev 19:11.. where it says, 11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

If there were not horses in heaven, then just WHERE did the horses come from? A special stable kept just for the purpose somewhere in Texas?

Good quote. Anyone know others?

Carol Ames

Sep. 4, 2009, 02:40 PM

Animals most definitely do cross the Rainbow Bridge; and have told animal communicators who, have contacted mine for me, that it is "very nice" there and they have lots of support and they enjoy their new bodies but, they are sad :cry:that we are not there with them :yes: A friend from another church, put it this way; God loves us, and wants us to be happy;) when we're with HIM, He knows what makes us to be :yes: happy; I was glad to hear:yes: that; Have you read "Animals guides to the soul?" I have always called my animals "spirit guides";)

caradino

Sep. 4, 2009, 02:40 PM

Good gravy. You know, old men can be like that! Just saying what they see as practical and plain, and not worrying about feelings! It was insensitive to say that when you needed encouragement.

That said, I think my in-laws (who are baptists, and very very serious about it) would probably say that yes, animals are God's creatures and should be treated with respect (though working them or eating them is not out of line with their beliefs), and no, they don't go to heaven. But that's not because they go to hell! It's just that in their church they believe humans are a special kind of creature, above all others, with souls (or at least with special kinds of souls that are judged and so on). Animals live by instinct, and can't sin, thus they can't be condemned after death. That said, the animals you own are clearly offering you a lot of joy, and how is that not a wonderful use for them? They get your loving attention, and they return it with their affection. That's what pets do!

If you find your church supportive and helpful in every other way, than ignore this guy with his grumpy insensitive comments and turn to your church for the things it can provide. If this is the last straw and you don't agree with much else at your church, try another, perhaps younger or less conservative church.

couldn't have said it better!

sorry you have to go through a tough time with your disability. i think your elderly friend needs to do some serious scripture reading, no where have i found that it says in the Bible that caring for animals is somehow a sentence to be eternally damned! now if you start getting OBSESSIVE about your pets and put them completely and totally above God and all other priorities.. yeah i can see his point. but that doesn't seem at all to be the case with you! you're saved by grace, not because of what you do with your animals. :)

best of luck, good thoughts and prayers for you and whatever comes next!

ChocoMare

Sep. 4, 2009, 02:47 PM

Um, someone isn't reading their Bible.

May I suggest the book Heaven (http://www.lifeway.com/e9/shop/?id=0842379428)by Randy Alcorn? It is all soundly and solidly Biblically based. Here are notes on it:

From Publishers Weekly
According to Alcorn (The Treasure Principle; Deadline; Safely Home), the subject of heaven rates as one of the least accurately discussed subjects in the whole of Christendom. Even seminarians fail to give appropriate time and attention to heaven as described throughout the Bible because other themes take pre-eminence both chronologically and preferentially. Alcorn is likewise astounded that the majority of Christians who do take time to consider heaven often possess faulty, nonbiblical assumptions, one of the most common being the misconception of heaven as a place of unending church services. The author, who is also the founder of the nonprofit organization Eternal Perspective Ministries (EPM), has spent years studying what the Bible says about heaven, and in this compelling and comprehensive resource, he offers every conceivable question about heaven, or the "New Earth," as a Christian believer's ultimate destination. Alcorn answers the expected queries on heavenly life as well as quirkier ones: will Christians drink coffee in heaven? Will there be homeownership, and what about sex? Will our pets be in heaven? Evangelical scholars and laypersons alike will appreciate Alcorn's expansive—though perhaps long-winded—musings on this neglected subject, a real boon in a time when many people are eager to understand what happens after death.

Product Description
We all have questions about what heaven will be like. Randy Alcorn helps answer some of these questions by sharing his extensive research on the topic--all from a biblical perspective. His writing will surprise readers and stretch their thinking beyond anything they've imagined heaven to be like. And Heaven will help readers strive for eternity while they're living on earth.

From the Inside Flap
Have you ever wondered . . .

What is Heaven really going to be like?
What will we look like?
What will we do every day?
Won’t Heaven get boring after a while?

We all have questions about what Heaven will be like, and after twenty-five years of extensive research, Dr. Randy Alcorn has the answers.
In the most comprehensive and definitive book on Heaven to date, Randy invites you to picture Heaven the way Scripture describes it—a bright, vibrant, and physical New Earth, free from sin, suffering, and death, and brimming with Christ's presence, wondrous natural beauty, and the richness of human culture as God intended it.

God has put eternity in our hearts. Now, Randy Alcorn brings eternity to light in a way that will surprise you, spark your imagination, and change how you live today.

If you’ve always thought of Heaven as a realm of disembodied spirits, clouds, and eternal harp strumming, you’re in for a wonderful surprise.

This is a book about real people with real bodies enjoying close relationships with God and each other, eating, drinking, working, playing, traveling, worshiping, and discovering on a New Earth. Earth as God created it. Earth as he intended it to be.
And the next time you hear someone say, “We can’t begin to imagine what Heaven will be like,” you will be able to tell them, “I can.”

mjhco

Sep. 4, 2009, 02:48 PM

Good quote. Anyone know others?

God created all the animals (Psalm 104).

"Then God commanded, 'Let the earth produce all kinds of animal life; domestic and wild, large and small, and it was done. So God made them all, and He was pleased with what He saw." Genesis 1:24, 25

All animals belong to God (Psalm 24:1).

"All the animals in the forest are Mine and the cattle on thousands of hills. All the wild birds are Mine and all living things in the fields." Psalm 50:10, 11

God cares for the animals (1 John 4:16).

"Look at the birds flying around . . . your Father in Heaven takes care of them" Matthew 6:26

"He gives animals their food and feeds the young ravens when they call." Psalm 147:9

"This plan, which God will complete when the time is right, is to bring all creation together, everything in heaven and on earth, with Christ as head." Ephesians 1:10

"Wolves and sheep will live together in peace, and leopards will lie down with young goats, calves and lion cubs will feed together, and little children will take care of them. Cows and bears will eat together, and their calves and cubs will lie down in peace. Lions will eat straw as cattle do . . . The land will be as full of knowledge of the Lord as the seas are full of water." Isaiah 11:6-9

"Search in the Lord's book of living creatures and read what it says. Not one of these creatures will be missing and not one will be without its mate. The Lord has commanded it to be so; He Himself will bring them together. It is the Lord who will divide the land among them and give each of them a share. They will live in the land age after age, and it will belong to them for ever." Isaiah 34:16, 17

"Praise Him, hills and mountains, fruit trees and forests; all animals, tame and wild, reptiles and birds." Psalm 148:9, 10

"Be glad, earth and sky! Roar sea and every creature in you: be glad fields and everything in you! The trees in the woods will shout for joy." Psalm 96:11, 12

"And then I heard every creature in heaven, on earth, in the world below, and in the sea - all living beings in the universe - and they were singing: 'To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb, be praise and honour, glory and might, forever and ever'."
Revelation 5:13

"A good man takes care of his animals, but wicked men are cruel to theirs." Proverbs 12:10

caradino

Sep. 4, 2009, 02:50 PM

God created all the animals (Psalm 104).

"Then God commanded, 'Let the earth produce all kinds of animal life; domestic and wild, large and small, and it was done. So God made them all, and He was pleased with what He saw." Genesis 1:24, 25

All animals belong to God (Psalm 24:1).

"All the animals in the forest are Mine and the cattle on thousands of hills. All the wild birds are Mine and all living things in the fields." Psalm 50:10, 11

God cares for the animals (1 John 4:16).

"Look at the birds flying around . . . your Father in Heaven takes care of them" Matthew 6:26

"He gives animals their food and feeds the young ravens when they call." Psalm 147:9

"This plan, which God will complete when the time is right, is to bring all creation together, everything in heaven and on earth, with Christ as head." Ephesians 1:10

"Wolves and sheep will live together in peace, and leopards will lie down with young goats, calves and lion cubs will feed together, and little children will take care of them. Cows and bears will eat together, and their calves and cubs will lie down in peace. Lions will eat straw as cattle do . . . The land will be as full of knowledge of the Lord as the seas are full of water." Isaiah 11:6-9

"Search in the Lord's book of living creatures and read what it says. Not one of these creatures will be missing and not one will be without its mate. The Lord has commanded it to be so; He Himself will bring them together. It is the Lord who will divide the land among them and give each of them a share. They will live in the land age after age, and it will belong to them for ever." Isaiah 34:16, 17

"Praise Him, hills and mountains, fruit trees and forests; all animals, tame and wild, reptiles and birds." Psalm 148:9, 10

"Be glad, earth and sky! Roar sea and every creature in you: be glad fields and everything in you! The trees in the woods will shout for joy." Psalm 96:11, 12

"And then I heard every creature in heaven, on earth, in the world below, and in the sea - all living beings in the universe - and they were singing: 'To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb, be praise and honour, glory and might, forever and ever'."
Revelation 5:13

"A good man takes care of his animals, but wicked men are cruel to theirs." Proverbs 12:10

these are FABULOUS! that's scripture that just makes my heart sing. :)

ChocoMare

Sep. 4, 2009, 02:53 PM

And we have His assurance that HORSES are in heaven: :yes:

Revelation 6:2 (NIV) I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and He was given a crown, and He rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

Revelation 19:11 (NIV) I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice He judges and makes war.

Revelation 19:14 (NIV) The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean

Carol Ames

Sep. 4, 2009, 02:54 PM

I will bet that tthis man has never had an animal companion to love and be loved; how very sad:(; I've heard several older men say that their pets allowed them to open to emotions that they had forgotten they had had:confused: and for some, :eek: that is frightening:no:

dghunter

Sep. 4, 2009, 02:55 PM

My Religion teacher in HS told me that animals have no souls which really upset me :( But after hearing some of these scriptures I'm going to have to agree with the scriptures on this one :)

ChocoMare

Sep. 4, 2009, 02:56 PM

Alas, the old saying is true: Christians are the only ones who shoot their own wounded. :cry:

But Manes&Tails, you be Strong In Him...do not rely on the words of a mere man. Hold to what and WHO you Know. Feel free to PM me anytime.

JSwan

Sep. 4, 2009, 02:56 PM

Just for you, OP.

THE CURATE THINKS YOU HAVE NO SOUL

The curate thinks you have no soul;
I know that he has none. But you,
Dear friend, whose solemn self-control,
In our foursquare familiar pew,
Was pattern to my youth -- whose bark
Called me in summer dawns to rove --
Have you gone down into the dark
Where none is welcome -- none may love?
I will not think those good brown eyes
Have spent their life of truth so soon;
But in some canine paradise
Your wraith, I know, rebukes the moon,
And quarters every plain and hill,
Seeking his master... As for me,
This prayer at least the gods fulfill;
That when I pass the flood and see
Old Charon by the Stygian coast
Take toll of all the shades who land,
Your little, faithful, barking ghost
May leap to lick my phantom hand.

-- St.John Lucas

belleellis

Sep. 4, 2009, 02:57 PM

My mother told me this when my old dog passed away. Billy Graham believed animals went to heaven. (now if mom had this straight is another thing).

Tiger Horse

Sep. 4, 2009, 03:01 PM

I'd almost feel sorry for him . . . except what he "said" to you was certainly quite cruel. Honestly, some of these so-called "holy" people sure do treat other people like s**t!

I can't imagine a heaven without animals - after all Jesus was born in a "stable"!

Daydream Believer

Sep. 4, 2009, 03:04 PM

arabhorse2

Sep. 4, 2009, 03:12 PM

Romans 8:19-22:

For the earnest expectation of the creature waits for the manifestions of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him who has subjected the same in hope.

Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

For we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now.

Matthew 6:20-21:

Lay up for yourselves treasure in Heaven, where neither moth nor rust corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal; for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

For those of us who love our animals, they are our treasures. God has promised that our treasures will be waiting for us.

I would not willingly enter into any Heaven that would deny me my dearest treasures.

caradino

Sep. 4, 2009, 03:12 PM

Well, I'm not much of a Christian although I was raised as one. My beliefs run more along the lines of Pagan/Wicca these days...and reading stuff like what you posted that your "elder" said reminds me of why I don't and won't go to church anymore. What a load of crap!

As Winston Churchill once said, "God Forbid I should go to any Heaven in which there are no horses." Wise man...Heaven without animals would be more like Hell than some great reward.

I expect to be reincarnated and come back again along with my animals.

i find it so sad that people like the elder from the OP's church 'ruin' Christianity for others like it did for you, DaydreamBeliever, because often the insensitive, whacked-out things they tell you aren't really what it's truly about at all! i really wonder sometimes if people like that elder are reading the same Bible that i am...

Threebars

Sep. 4, 2009, 03:13 PM

First off, I hope you can find a new place of spiritual comfort... I'll hold my tongue on the rest as it's been stated far more eloquently.

But I want to share this :

FOR ALL THE GOOD CRITTERS ----------
... and the people who love them...

A man was riding his horse down a road, his dog padding along by their side. The man was enjoying the scenery, when it suddenly occurred to him that he was dead. He remembered dying, and that his horse and dog had been
dead for years. He wondered where the road was leading them.

After a while, they came to a high, white stone wall along one side of the road. It looked like fine marble. At the top of a long hill, it was broken by a tall arch that glowed in the sunlight. When he was standing before it, he saw a magnificent gate in the arch that looked like mother of pearl, and the street
that led to the gate looked like pure gold. He nudged the horse toward the gate, and as he got closer, he saw a man at a desk to one side. When he was close enough, he called out, "Excuse me, where are we?"

"This is heaven, sir," the man answered.

"Wow! Would you happen to have some water?" the man asked.

"Of course, sir. Come right in, and I'll have some ice water brought right up."
The man gestured, and the gate began to open.

"Can my friends," gesturing downward towards his horse and dog, "come in, too?" the traveler asked.

"I'm sorry, sir, but we don't accept animals."

The man thought a moment and then turned his horse back toward the road and continued the way he had been going. After another long walk, and at the top of another long hill, he came to a dirt road which led through a farm
gate that looked as if it had never been closed. There was no fence. As he
approached the gate, he saw a man inside, leaningagainst a tree and reading a book.

"Excuse me!" he called to the reader. "Do you have any water?"

"Yeah, sure, there's a pump over there" The reader pointed to a place that couldn't be seen from outsidethe gate. "Come on in", he said.

"How about my friends here?" the traveler asked.

"There should be a bowl and a bucket by the pump” replied the reader.

They went through the gate, and sure enough, there wasan old-fashioned hand pump with a bowl and a bucket beside it. The traveler filled the bowl and took a long drink himself, then gave some to the dog while he filled the
bucket for his horse. When they all were satisfied, he led his horse back toward the man who was standing by the tree waiting for them,the dog following faithfully behind.

“What do you call this place?" the traveler asked.

"This is heaven," was the answer.

"Well, that's confusing," the traveler said. "The man down the road said that was heaven, too."

"Oh, you mean the place with the gold street and pearly gates? Nope. That's hell."

"Doesn't it make you mad for them to use your name like that?"

"No. I can see how you might think so, but we're justhappy that they screen out the folks who'll leave their best friends behind".

Tangerine Farmer

Sep. 4, 2009, 03:21 PM

We are supposed to enjoy our time on earth. Our animals are a comfort to us. Even if we are having financial or health problems to love and care for an animal gives some of us a reason to drag ourselves out of bed and love something.

Don't slip into his gloom!! He has no love!! He's an old wreck of a human!!

We're glad you posted this instead of listening to someone who supposedly knows the answers!!!

Cherish your animals and your time here... and find another church that will lift you up and make you rejoice!

Do it today!

Daydream Believer

Sep. 4, 2009, 03:22 PM

i find it so sad that people like the elder from the OP's church 'ruin' Christianity for others like it did for you, DaydreamBeliever, because often the insensitive, whacked-out things they tell you aren't really what it's truly about at all! i really wonder sometimes if people like that elder are reading the same Bible that i am...

Don't take it personally but I am plenty happy in my beliefs and am comfortable with the state of my soul. I've been told by plenty of folks over the years that animals don't have souls in the Christian theology and there is more than that that I find inconsistent with my own beliefs. Each to their own and I have plenty of Christian friends and respect everyone's right to worship as they see fit.

I am sorry that the OP has been fed such a line of BS and made to feel guilty and like she's going to eternal damnation for her love of her pets. That is just wrong on so many levels.

BlueEyedSorrel

Sep. 4, 2009, 03:22 PM

As another poster already noted, comments like this are one of the many reasons I no longer go to church or have anything to do with the faith I was raised in. Still believe in a higher power in a general sense, but I don't think any human organized religion really works for me.

To the OP, I'd say that unless this elder has proof that he's got a direct pipeline to the man (or woman or whatever) upstairs, he is just another human on this lonely little planet, trying to make sense of the world as best he can, so you can therefore feel free to ignore him. Anyone who would say something so thoughtless must have serious issues of his own.

BES

mjhco

Sep. 4, 2009, 03:25 PM

Well, I'm not much of a Christian although I was raised as one. My beliefs run more along the lines of Pagan/Wicca these days...and reading stuff like what you posted that your "elder" said reminds me of why I don't and won't go to church anymore. What a load of crap!

As Winston Churchill once said, "God Forbid I should go to any Heaven in which there are no horses." Wise man...Heaven without animals would be more like Hell than some great reward.

I expect to be reincarnated and come back again along with my animals.

Sadly many people end up feeling this way. I am so sorry.

But as I say to all who are disappointed/hurt/dismayed/injured by Christians. Please see Jesus for who HE is and offers, not what us stupid people who love him are doing/saying. ;-{

sidepasser

Sep. 4, 2009, 03:27 PM

I stopped at my favorite little store on the way home from the feed store - truck loaded down with feed, shavings, minerals, mineral block and this lady comes into the store and asks me if I am the owner of the truck. I told her yes, thinking I was in the way of the pumps and she yelled at me and told me "you have no business owning horses because in this economy everyone should do everything they can to save money and you are just wasting your money when it could be going to help people in need".

The lady that operates the store was flabbergasted to say the least, and the other lady huffed out throwing over her shoulder that I should be taking care of orphans and helping those who have lost their jobs instead of wasting good money on animals. WTH?

I wonder if the lady just lost her job? I could have been extremely rude and replied rudely, but I didn't. I felt that perhaps I was there in that moment to allow her to vent her frustration in case she did just lose her job (around here that is a great possibility).

I don't pretend to know what God's will is, I do the best I can everyday and hope that is good enough. As far as animals having souls..I don't know. I prepare hoping that if I go to a better place (Heaven, Nirvana, whatever one wants to call it) that I will be able to see my old horse friends, dogs, cats and that every loving older than dirt guinea pigger. If not, then I am afraid I will not be as happy as I could be there, but am sure that I'll make out somehow.

Somehow I can't imagine a Heaven without animals, or trees, or birds..would seem to be a right void without them.

sidepasser

Sep. 4, 2009, 03:28 PM

If animals don't have souls, why does the Priest bless the animals at my Church?

JSwan

Sep. 4, 2009, 03:29 PM

Somehow I can't imagine a Heaven without animals, or trees, or birds..would seem to be a right void without them.

Sounds like hell to me. :no:

Larksmom

Sep. 4, 2009, 03:31 PM

But having come to Christianity later in life than some here, I have laso heard that since animals have not a 'soul' they cannot 'choose' to love Christ. BUT I also believe the Bible when it says all our 'treasures' will be there, while that may not be computers[!!]:eek: I certainly think it will include our animals.
I also feel sorry for the old elder. It does sound like he has never had a pet. Ask God what He wants you to do with them. Maybe this is a test?

mjhco

Sep. 4, 2009, 03:37 PM

"Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves. Protect the rights of all who are helpless." Proverbs 31:8

equineartworks

Sep. 4, 2009, 03:44 PM

threedogpack

Sep. 4, 2009, 03:47 PM

"My treasures do not clink together or glitter; They gleam in the sun and neigh in the night."

how true this is for me. People, Christians included, have let me down time after time, but my pets do not. They love me when others don't. They welcome me when others have left. They look on each day as an adventure together.

How can anyone ever think they don't have souls?

equineartworks

Sep. 4, 2009, 03:49 PM

Miss Aria

Sep. 4, 2009, 03:52 PM

My Religion teacher in HS told me that animals have no souls which really upset me :( But after hearing some of these scriptures I'm going to have to agree with the scriptures on this one :)

ALWAYS go with what scripture says over what man claims.

That said, I believe our God is a loving God who wants wonderful things for His children. If having our beloved animals in heaven is what we long for, then having our beloved animals with us is what we'll get. No, that's not scriptural, but it's a reflection of His love.

Saidapal

Sep. 4, 2009, 03:55 PM

We all make a commitment to our animals to keep them safe and cared for. I was unemployed for 4 months and I never considered getting rid of any of my animals. I knew it was temporary, and it was. I also knew if things became bad I would still keep them safe and cared for by finding them another loving home. I got a job, still have my animals, and life is going on.

When I look into my animals eyes I see a soul. Don't care what anybody says.

And that's all I have to say about that.

Here's a little levity: http://www.snopes.com/photos/signs/dogheaven.asp

cnvh

Sep. 4, 2009, 03:55 PM

I'm not a Christian... In fact I'm not much of anything. But I DO know that if there is such a place as Heaven, and my beloved animals aren't allowed, then no thanks-- you can count me out. What a bunch of hogwash...

li'l bit

Sep. 4, 2009, 04:04 PM

Sounds like the traditional Christian judgemental attitude with a little guilt tripping thrown in for good measure.

Had my fill of this kind of thinking a LONG time ago.

myvanya

Sep. 4, 2009, 04:11 PM

This page is long but worth reading as it covers the topic of animals in christian theology very well actually. (I don't know about the rest of the guy's belief's but this is biblically based, well thought out, andmakes sense so it works for me...)

http://www.frontline.org.za/articles/animals.htm

A particularly good section is this though:

"A good man takes care of his animals, but wicked men are cruel to theirs." Proverbs 12:10

The Bible says that God has fixed a day in which He will judge the whole world with justice (Acts 17:31). It is well to remember that although man was created in the image of God, the whole message of the Bible is that all mankind has fallen into sinful rebellion against God.

"They are quick to hurt and kill; they leave ruin and destruction wherever they go. They have not known the path of peace, nor have they learnt to fear God . . . Everyone has sinned and is far away from God's saving presence." Romans 3:15-17, 23

On the other hand, the Bible indicates that all animals are acceptable in God's sight. They never degenerated into rebellion against God. While all human beings need forgiveness and salvation, all animals are already in a right relationship with God. We should remember this and be
humbled.

and for the op remember this verse:

"Wolves and sheep will live together in peace, and leopards will lie down with young goats, calves and lion cubs will feed together, and little children will take care of them. Cows and bears will eat together, and their calves and cubs will lie down in peace. Lions will eat straw as cattle do . . . The land will be as full of knowledge of the Lord as the seas are full of water." Isaiah 11:6-9

I strongly doubt that the elder of your church is making the decision as to whether or not you will go to heaven or hell- last time I checked that job, according to christian theology, is done by God :winkgrin:. So please, don't be fearful for your salvation or your animal's future. It makes me sick that he would say something like that to you; I know that it is behaviour like that and statements like that that turn many people away from actually seeing God for who He (for lack of a better pronoun and not referencing gender) is. No one can define God, or tell you what heaven will be like exactly, or tell you what God will or will not do or even what He thinks unless they are quoting the Bible; I wish more people realized that....God is so far outside of our comprehension that any attempt we make to fit him/it into our image of a god will fall short and make God something He isn't. Sorry for the tangent....but I really dislike it when people think they can define God and things about God that they absolutely can't. Its called the numinous and we should allow ourselves to feel awe and just be instead of constantly trying to put God in a box....

So....I'll be praying for you and hoping that you will be blessed soon... be responsible about your animals; if you can't take care of them then try to rehome them or ask for help, but otherwise, do your best and keep hoping and trusting....feel free to pm me if you need anything....

WorthTheWait95

Sep. 4, 2009, 04:11 PM

Sounds like the traditional Christian judgemental attitude with a little guilt tripping thrown in for good measure.

Had my fill of this kind of thinking a LONG time ago.

Agreed.

I don't believe in god or heaven or any kind of 'after life' but if I did I certainly wouldn't listen to a religion that would exclude animals!

My mom and sister are very religious whereas both my dad and I are atheists so it has led to a lot of debates on holidays and other family gatherings especially since our animals are so central in our lives. The things they believe blow my mind and I have no idea how they can reconcile themselves to a 'heaven' with no animals....doesn't sound like much of a heaven to me.

BuddyRoo

Sep. 4, 2009, 04:12 PM

Playing devil's advocate for a moment...

Maybe the elder really thought his words WOULD bring the OP peace and focus. Well intentioned perhaps? Thinking that she shared the same beliefs as he?

I think it's totally wonky nonsense myself, and I probably would've reached through the phone and slapped someone for saying something like that to me.

But...if you did lose your job and you are down on your luck, maybe it WOULD be wise FINANCIALLY to be rid of additional financial responsibilities....I just don't think it makes much sense emotionally and how the heck does he know whether or not you can afford them for now, whether or not you ARE making arrangements.....and does he realize that to live without them would break your heart?

Goodness, sometimes people just don't think before they speak.

I'm sorry for your loss. And *I* believe that if there's a Heaven, my critters will get to be there too.

tidy rabbit

Sep. 4, 2009, 04:16 PM

The time I spend with my beloved horses and cats and dogs, when I'm not distracted by anything - past or future, when we're all just happily being, those moments.... that is heaven enough for me.

I hope the road ahead is a little smoother for you.

Huntertwo

Sep. 4, 2009, 04:17 PM

I had a discussion with a woman I used to work with about the same thing.
She was extremely religious (which is not a bad thing), but insisted that animals do not have souls.

I argued with her until I was blue in the face. If it is a living, feeling creature, capable of thought, learning, basically just like humans, just a different species, why wouldn't they have a soul and go to heaven?

Don't believe for a second that I won't meet all my past pets when it is my time. :) It's gonna be a long long line... ;)

Huntertwo

Sep. 4, 2009, 04:26 PM

If animals don't have souls, why does the Priest bless the animals at my Church?

Good point. And isn't Saint Francis the patron saint of animals?

Frank B

Sep. 4, 2009, 04:32 PM

Other than that meddlin' old fart, how well do you and the rest of the church get along? I'm assuming that because you're still a member, there's been no conflict up to this point. IOW, don't let one bad apple spoil the whole barrel for you.

If, on the other hand, there's a lot of meddling in things that don't concern them, it's time find another church.

FWIW, I belong to one of those small (~50 members) out-in-the-country Methodist churches. You know, the ones the "sophisticated" city-folk like to make fun of. When my Normie was having his troubling last year, my wife asked the church to pray for him, several times. The congregation did, gladly, and with open hearts. Until he crossed The Rainbow Bridge, they constantly asked of his well-being. But then, many of the members grew up on farms, and creatures great and small are, or were, a part of their lives.

Laurierace

Sep. 4, 2009, 04:33 PM

I think anyone that claims to know all about the afterlife and what it includes or does not include is deluding themselves. We can have our beliefs but none of us truly knows. Its not worth hurting someone's feelings over speculation. I personally believe that this life is hell so we are all in it right now including the animals. Once we cross to the other side we get to decide whether we learned what we came here to learn or if we need to go back and give it another try. Animals are perfect in the intentions so never need a do-over. Its not worth arguing about since no one knows the real answer.

pAin't_Misbehavin'

Sep. 4, 2009, 04:35 PM

"The first thing you need to do in the am is to give away and/or sale your dogs and horses due to your job lost, they are now a burden on you and if you keep them you will be worshiping your animals more than the Lord and you will not go to Heaven.

Translation: If you meet your responsibilities to your animals, there's that much less you can put into the collection plate.

I'm an Episcopalian, in the Diocese of South Carolina. So believe me, I know all about grumpy old men who still live in the first half of the last century.:lol: I think you just have to be bold, speak up and tell them what you think, and then let it go and enjoy the good parts of your church.

IME, once the old silverbacks know you're not going to just smile and nod and pretend you think they have two brain cells to rub together, they will stop spouting their nonsense where you can hear it.:yes:

Carol Ames

Sep. 4, 2009, 04:45 PM

lI would like to think that someone in the childrens' ministry would NOT:no: have said THAT you MIGHT TRY :yes::yes:THERE;
HE DOES NOT :yes:KNOW YET;:o NOR DOES HE HAVE THE FINAL :no:SAY. iT was a very mean spirited:mad: thing to say

JanM

Sep. 4, 2009, 05:07 PM

Thank you Threebars-I love that story. And as others have said if there are no animals in heaven then how do the lion and lamb appear? I guess they commute from Cleveland? I think people like that old man are sad little people inside-they've apparently never cared for anyone but themselves, and will never know love for another creature-or even themselves. A lot of the older ones grew up when there were very few house animals, and everything had a job. Lots of people then never had a house pet or anything but a working animal that earned it's keep and was gone if it wasn't useful. I feel sorry for him that he is so miserable and unloved that he has to try to 'help' by being mean to people. Personally, I think my animals have a much greater chance of reaching heaven than most people do.

And if he's so knowledgeable about the 'other side' then I hope it wasn't a collect call, because there's only one way to know for sure and because calling from hell is probably very expensive.

Carol Ames

Sep. 4, 2009, 05:08 PM

With foxhunting starting up now, you might find a Blessing of the Horse;) near you and go. I doubt that in that community you would find a minster who agreed with your visitor.:yes:

myvanya

Sep. 4, 2009, 05:19 PM

Buddy Roo- I agree he MAY have had good intentions, but his intentions hardly matter when he upset someone so much. And I really take issue with him telling someone they would go to hell if they don't do X or Y....how would he know? Last time I checked unless he's Jesus he sinned too and isn't allowed to judge on that front.

So, he should have thought before he spoke is what it comes down to. If he meant something other than what he said, he should have said something else....again...the whole thinking before you speak thing. But, no one is perfect, so yes, it was a stupid thing to say but hopefully unless the OP has other issues with her church she can still continue on with it.

Just some more thoughts for what its worth.

And I have to say that the Horses in the apocalypse coming from a barn in texas and the lion and the lamb coming from cleveland totally made me laugh!

BBowen

Sep. 4, 2009, 05:23 PM

Obviously, that person has never looked into the eyes of an animal. I find more soul there than I do with many people. Several years ago, the minister at a church I attended said the same thing as the elder from your church, Carol. I quit going to that church. I can feel a lot closer to God riding my horse on beautiful trails more so than sitting in church. The trail is simple, beautiful and filled with all of God's creation.

BeastieSlave

Sep. 4, 2009, 07:08 PM

With friends like that, who needs enemies?! Man, what a mean thing to say.

Even if he was trying to be helpful by suggesting the OP lighten her load - that's not the way to do it :no:
I don't care what his motivation was, I would seriously be rethinking my choice of church if that's what the people who represent it are telling members.....

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"

Sep. 4, 2009, 07:16 PM

I am just so sorry that, rather than helping you through a difficult time, he made it harder. I hope that it was lack of social graces, that he was fumbling in his attempt, and not that he intended it this way.

But I'm with eaw. I'm not religious. The scientist in me questions.

But if there is a heaven, and my animal friends from here aren't welcome...well then, by definition, it wouldn't be heaven.

MediaMD

Sep. 4, 2009, 07:28 PM

I can assure you that was one of the questions I asked my parents growing up as a horse crazy kid, and the answer I got was similar to those given by others on this board. There are many references to horses in Heaven, from Revelation to the fiery horses who took Elisha into Heaven as he stood in the field. I truly believe the God who created the Heavens and the Earth and all the creatures in it and who says He cares for the smallest sparrow who falls from the tree also has a special place in Heaven for all His creatures.

Sorry OP for the meanspiritedness of the man in your church. There are many many places where you would be welcomed into a congregation of believers and who contrary to condemning you, would be lifting you up and encouraging you as well as helping you either support your animals or find them homes.

Yes, there are hypocrits who need to be in church just like sick people who need to be in the hospital. Please don't let this one man turn you away from a God who loves you and only wants the best for you. Warm hugs from a believer who is STILL horse crazy after all these years...Please keep us posted on how things are going for you.

foundationmare

Sep. 4, 2009, 08:14 PM

DGRH; Saidapal (great link); cnvh; li'l bit; WTW95; Beastie; TidyRabbit; Laurierace; and other I may have omitted....let's start our own!

I am so on board! Other than the fact that the well-meaning geezer broke the OPs heart and caused her pain during a difficult time, I'm strident about "religious" people who mete out strife and sorrow under the guise of allegiance to a benevolent diety and HIS final word.

Whether or not one believes in a Heaven or Hell, what harm can be done by those who believe they will be reunited with their beloved pets. And, if the Rainbow Bridge doesn't exist, how can we temper our grief and sorrow when our cherished friends are no longer in our lives? Isn't this all about a belief system?

I just happen to choose to believe that The Bridge exists, much like I choose to believe in Santa Claus, because there is solace and joy there. It is my choice....not written, not proscribed, not inculcated...just my choice.

hellerkm

Sep. 4, 2009, 08:15 PM

My son passed away at 18 mos old exactly a year later to the DAY I lost my 17 yr old golden Retriever ,you had better believe that they are up there together running through fields and playing , my golden is watching over my son until I get there, I trust him to love and care for my son until I can do it myself!!! If this were not the case I would lose my mind!!!
Heaven is about all things good and loving, your care and devotion to your animals is an extension of Gods work here on earth. Each day you continue to love and care for your animals is another day that God is working hard to ease your burden. It may not be instantly apparent ( you may struggle) but he is watching and he knows that you are willing to care for someone ( or something) even when you are suffering, THIS is what GOD has asked all of us to do , in return he will care for us !!!

pAin't_Misbehavin'

Sep. 4, 2009, 08:16 PM

With foxhunting starting up now, you might find a Blessing of the Horse;) near you and go. I doubt that in that community you would find a minster who agreed with your visitor.:yes:

Here's a blessing of the hounds I found on YouTube, from Southern Pines:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGoQbrA7CaM Lovely service.

And of course every St. Francis's Day we in the Episcopal Church have the Blessing of the Animals.:) My former priest used to conduct it at the local animal shelter - as long as I went along as reptile wrangler.:lol: All creatures great and small and all that - but the non-piscine ones with scales, she drew the line at holding.:D

PhoenixFarm

Sep. 4, 2009, 08:44 PM

I'm going to inch out on a limb here and suspect that the OP is Mormon, based on the language she uses and the statements of the Elder in question (and the fact she capitaizes Elder).

I'm am most definitely not a Mormon, but I'm related to huge 'ol passel of 'em, and have more than a passing grasp of the theology, and I would say that this gentleman's views would very much be in line with their theology.

I would also suspect that this would be a huge issue for the OP, because this is likely more that a religious challenge to her, likely her entire community and her place in it feels at risk because she dares to have a differing viewpoint. Loyalty to Christ and The Church (and in some cases not necessarily in that order) is the ONLY thing necessary to sustain you in this life. Even family ties can become suspect if they are standing in the way of fulfilling your obligations to the church (and yes, that can include the yearly tithing). Forget about any such loyalty to the animals.

In the Mormon culture there is the right way, and there is everything else. The nail that sticks up gets pounded down. There is no "other church" for the OP unless she is prepared to be excommunicated--and then she risks losing all of her community connections, including her family. Having seen this type of challenge play out in my own family, though not over this particular issue, I can only offer my sympathy to the OP. This will not be an easy time for her.

To the OP, all I would say is, there are some things that you know in your heart are simply not true, no matter how authoritative the mouth speaking them is. Is it worth living your life as a lie, just on the off chance that another fallible human on earth is more right than you? You know that animals have souls, and that loving them doesn't send you to hell, or anywhere else. It is up to you to decide if you can live in between the two theologies or not. Best of luck, and hugs for your situations.

vacation1

Sep. 4, 2009, 08:53 PM

I'm always amazed how tied up in knots people get about animals and heaven. It's nice that the religious (priests, ministers, rabbis, etc.) have opinions on the matter, but I don't feel particularly stressed by them - it's not like they've visited, right? I think the OP was ill-served by an elder in her faith, which is sad and painful. But I don't have a lot of sympathy for the idea that one mean-spirited outburst is grounds for rejecting an entire religion/person. It was, even if poorly judged and rather mean, just an opinion. The elder can't actually force OP to give up her animals, send her to hell, etc.

Just mark it down to an insensitive elderly man getting carried away by the chance to help someone (I know, but that's probably how he saw it) and don't worry about it. Though OP might consider mentioning to whoever runs her church that elder X might not be a good person to go visit with those who have pets.

nadasy

Sep. 4, 2009, 08:54 PM

I carry this one on a piece of paper in my breeches. I really love Proverbs.
Proverbs 21:30-31:
30 There is no wisdom or understanding or counsel (that can prevail) against the Lord.
31 The horse is prepared for the day of battle, but deliverance and victory are of the Lord.

tidy rabbit

Sep. 4, 2009, 09:01 PM

DGRH; Saidapal (great link); cnvh; li'l bit; WTW95; Beastie; TidyRabbit; Laurierace; and other I may have omitted....let's start our own!

I am so on board! .....

I do believe in God, I'm just not a Christian which is hard for people 'round here to understand... and when asked I say I belong to the "Church of the Sand Arena". That is where I find my peace, and my joy, and my moments of clarity.

mswillie

Sep. 4, 2009, 09:10 PM

Translation: If you meet your responsibilities to your animals, there's that much less you can put into the collection plate.

And there you have it. My thoughts exactly. All you have to do is "follow the money". Explains a lot.

Laurierace

Sep. 4, 2009, 09:17 PM

Laurierace

Sep. 4, 2009, 09:19 PM

And there you have it. My thoughts exactly. All you have to do is "follow the money". Explains a lot.

I may be cynical but I believe money is the root of every religion. They all preach fear and the only way to protect yourself from what you are afraid of is to give them money. Worse than the Nigerian scammers if you ask me.

mkevent

Sep. 4, 2009, 09:20 PM

Foundation Mare-can I join too?

When you consider all the different religions in the world,with their legions of fervent followers, each one absolutely sure that theirs is the only true religion... how can any one interpretation be the correct one? To me, it is a cruel world if only 1 religion was chosen access to heaven and all the other religions, no matter how good their followers were, were denied that. "Oh, I'm sorry-I know you tried your best and lived a good life and helped others but you're a Presbyterian and we only admit Pentacostals-sorry"

The bible is one book, yet how many different religions interpret those exact same words in the same way? One sentence can have widely different meanings depending on who is reading it. And these texts have been translated over the centuries from the original languages that they were written in-what if the translators made a mistake in translation?

It all boils down to belief. Why can't you choose to believe what you feel is right-that animals have souls? What would be the harm in that? If you're wrong, would you be abandoned by God after you pass away? How can you be judged for having kindness and love and a sense of equality with all living creatures? I believe animals have souls-some people don't. Until it can be proven otherwise, I'm going to keep believing what I feel is right.

mswillie

Sep. 4, 2009, 09:23 PM

I may be cynical but I believe money is the root of every religion. They all preach fear and the only way to protect yourself from what you are afraid of is to give them money. Worse than the Nigerian scammers if you ask me.

Then that would make at least two of us. :yes:

pAin't_Misbehavin'

Sep. 4, 2009, 09:35 PM

I may be cynical but I believe money is the root of every religion. They all preach fear and the only way to protect yourself from what you are afraid of is to give them money.

I grew up in a church (not the Episcopal Church - they're a more positive bunch) that was heavy on the fear factor.:yes: It also emphasized tithing as a means to salvation. But it wasn't only about the money - money was only one of many means of controlling parishoners. An important part, to be sure, but not really the root of the thing. Power and control - that's the heart of it.

I think the "animals don't have souls" thing is one way of denying women's spirituality. Which is important to the old guys who run things. If you look around on Sunday - or Friday night, or whenever you go to church - we've got the men way outnumbered. They know if they give us an inch, we'll take the place over.:yes::lol: "Let your women keep silence in the churches," indeed! *snort* We know what they're up to!:yes:

equinelaw

Sep. 4, 2009, 09:42 PM

Bacon.

Daydream Believer

Sep. 4, 2009, 09:48 PM

foundationmare

Sep. 4, 2009, 09:50 PM

Well said and join up!

I took a religion course in college that explored the many religious viewpoints regarding animal ownership/stewardship. It was very enlightening to me, not only in clarifying my own beliefs but also in understanding the deeply rooted religious beliefs that dictate a mindset about animals (service animals, pets) that I don't agree with.

The textbook had an original name that was offensive and subsequently change and damned if I can't remember it. It was pivotal for me. Going to look it up....(It's been a loooon time).

foundationmare

Sep. 4, 2009, 09:57 PM

...absolutely, join up!

slc2

Sep. 4, 2009, 09:58 PM

To the original poster - the person who talked to you appears to be ignoring scripture, it says several times, if I remember right, that the people of heaven ride horses.

foundationmare

Sep. 4, 2009, 10:05 PM

Green Paradise Lost. I'm going to revisit it.

DancingQueen

Sep. 4, 2009, 10:07 PM

I don't know where OP is planning on going after this life but I'm going the same place all my animals went!

I might have to pay some dues for the occations when I did them wrong, but that would be heaven to me! In return I of course expect to get an explanation from them for dumping my ass on a few occations and find out why my dog insisted on bringing horse poop into bed with her (and me) and taking my underpants from the laundry basket and leaving them in the barn aisle!

Jokes aside.

IMO God comes in different ways for everybody. What you belive to be true will be true for you. What your fellow church member believes is true for him, he said what he said out of his believes not ot be spiteful and mean.
Nobody is without fault but we all do the best we can with what we have been given, some do better then others but there's no punishment, just pennance (?), a requirement/opportunity to set right that what you did wrong.

That's just my opinion of course. I believe that animals do have souls and that they too will go to heaven (or their version thereof). Moreso, I believe for heaven to be not a generic angels on clouds kind of scenario but a multi dimensional place where you can come to peace with your earthly life and where you will be in company of what makes you at peace and happy.
So if your horses and dogs are part of what makes you complete as a being then they will join you where you are. So will those you cared for.
I can wait a little yet but I do look forward to seeing my passed loved ones again and making things right where I faulted.

Bluey

Sep. 4, 2009, 10:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurierace
Well let's get really deep here, its almost a holiday! I consider myself to be extremely spiritual but not the slightest bit religious. The world is my "church" and I am with God every moment of every day. I see God in the trees and the grass and the hills and the birds and the bees etc.

That is pantheism, I think.;)

Laurierace

Sep. 4, 2009, 10:33 PM

cowgirljenn

Sep. 4, 2009, 10:35 PM

FWIW, I belong to one of those small (~50 members) out-in-the-country Methodist churches. You know, the ones the "sophisticated" city-folk like to make fun of. When my Normie was having his troubling last year, my wife asked the church to pray for him, several times. The congregation did, gladly, and with open hearts. Until he crossed The Rainbow Bridge, they constantly asked of his well-being. But then, many of the members grew up on farms, and creatures great and small are, or were, a part of their lives.

When we lived south of Houston (subburbs of the subburbs), we attended a First Christian Church. It was small - maybe 100ish people on Sunday. And it was wonderful. Friendly, loving, kind... and the pastor loved that I did rescue. We didn't make it to church often (we are gone a lot), but when we were there, he always asked how we were doing. AND he always included the rescue critters in his prayers.

It is hard to find another church now that we've moved. That was just such a welcoming and open experience. And so supportive of not only our rescue critters but all animals out there..

lolalola

Sep. 4, 2009, 10:40 PM

In one of the ancient church councils, the decision that women were fully human was passed by only one vote. It's been bad enough for women - can you imagine history had the vote gone the other way? A lot of dogma comes from men arguing fine points of theology and coming to a vote - or persecution, as the case may be.
I suggest reading Swedenborg. He was enormously influential in the 19th century - William and Henry James were raised as Swedenborgians, and Helen Keller, Carl Jung, the Brownings, Robert Frost, and so many others were either Swedenborgians or very influenced by him. His vision of heaven makes more sense than anything I've ever read on the subject.

Frank B

Sep. 4, 2009, 10:41 PM

To me, the ideal heaven would be a constant learning experience. Humans would be taught by more experienced horses, and would in turn teach lesser experienced horses, who would in turn teach even less experienced humans, who... Well, you get the idea. IOW, the pleasure of Paradise is in the learning.

Question: When geldings get to heaven, do they get back their, well, you know!

HorsesinHaiti

Sep. 4, 2009, 10:41 PM

God created all the animals (Psalm 104).

"Then God commanded, 'Let the earth produce all kinds of animal life; domestic and wild, large and small, and it was done. So God made them all, and He was pleased with what He saw." Genesis 1:24, 25

All animals belong to God (Psalm 24:1).

"All the animals in the forest are Mine and the cattle on thousands of hills. All the wild birds are Mine and all living things in the fields." Psalm 50:10, 11

God cares for the animals (1 John 4:16).

"Look at the birds flying around . . . your Father in Heaven takes care of them" Matthew 6:26

"He gives animals their food and feeds the young ravens when they call." Psalm 147:9

"This plan, which God will complete when the time is right, is to bring all creation together, everything in heaven and on earth, with Christ as head." Ephesians 1:10

"Wolves and sheep will live together in peace, and leopards will lie down with young goats, calves and lion cubs will feed together, and little children will take care of them. Cows and bears will eat together, and their calves and cubs will lie down in peace. Lions will eat straw as cattle do . . . The land will be as full of knowledge of the Lord as the seas are full of water." Isaiah 11:6-9

"Search in the Lord's book of living creatures and read what it says. Not one of these creatures will be missing and not one will be without its mate. The Lord has commanded it to be so; He Himself will bring them together. It is the Lord who will divide the land among them and give each of them a share. They will live in the land age after age, and it will belong to them for ever." Isaiah 34:16, 17

"Praise Him, hills and mountains, fruit trees and forests; all animals, tame and wild, reptiles and birds." Psalm 148:9, 10

"Be glad, earth and sky! Roar sea and every creature in you: be glad fields and everything in you! The trees in the woods will shout for joy." Psalm 96:11, 12

"And then I heard every creature in heaven, on earth, in the world below, and in the sea - all living beings in the universe - and they were singing: 'To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb, be praise and honour, glory and might, forever and ever'."
Revelation 5:13

"A good man takes care of his animals, but wicked men are cruel to theirs." Proverbs 12:10

plus the Revelations quotes answers your question for me.

Sorry that the man tried to swap out religion in place of Christ, they are hardly the same. Check out Jesus’ calling the Pharisees to account for being self-appointed gatekeepers of heaven! or any of the prophets calling the leaders of their day on their power games. He called for serious personal accountability in service to people and to the Lord who takes what we do to people as having been done to Him personally (the sheep and the goats story, Matthew 25:11 on if you want to read it, he takes time to emphasize the point!)
The more attention I put into hanging with him the more he pushes me to get off my introverted butt and go serve usefully. Not just my staff and the visitors, but also to get moving on Saturday and go help look after that pony I get to borrow!

Mor4ward

Sep. 4, 2009, 10:49 PM

I wasn't going to chime in ... but I have to.
Going to Church doesn't make you a theologian. Lots of really STUPID people go to church ... Stupid and INSENSITIVE people!
You can go the Scripture route and make the argument that since animals are without Original sin, they don't NEED salvation. Therefore they go to Heaven, automatically.

But even if you don't buy that - compassion should trump theology!

There is a special place in hell for pharisees like that insensitive zealot!

seeuatx

Sep. 4, 2009, 10:57 PM

Sounds like he can be put in the same box as some of the people from my old church. I will never again step foot in that door after they way they treated my parents, and most especially my father (who was their minister). I never thought that my old sunday school teachers and youth group leaders could be so underhanded and hypocritical. Ugggghhhh.... some people are just bent on making the whole religion look bad.

I believe that animals most definitely have a soul, and are blessed in the way that only those with a simple love could be. They know no jealousy, or greed, or malice, unlike their human counterparts. Maybe that guy needs to take a lesson from the animals on living faithfully, hmmm?

Laurierace

Sep. 4, 2009, 11:03 PM

Since we have already started the off topic day without permission I will share a story. One of the assistant starters at Penn National was struck and killed by a car one night. Truth is he walked in front of the car while leaving a bar but that is beside the point. At his funeral the minister, priest whatever he happened to be was giving his speech when all of a sudden he blurts out that the car didn't kill him, the devil did. Uh well that was my cue to get up in leave vs punching that asshat in the nose. Talk about a heartless thing to say! All because he was leaving a bar. I don't think so.....

HeartsongHorses

Sep. 5, 2009, 12:36 AM

A funny true story, a little off topic:

As a kid I went to a little country church where one of the members was a dairy farmer. Often he would talk about his cows, and would ask for prayers concerning their health, etc. As a teen (and not understanding that the man was *really* talking about his livelihood), my friends and I would giggle. We called them the "Holy Cows" lol

I am counting on my beloved pets to be in heaven waiting for me, including my horses and one or two Mr. Lund's "holy" cows. :)

Tobias

Sep. 5, 2009, 03:32 AM

I am not sure that our animals have souls, they are here for us, but in Heaven, we will have God, Yes the Bible says there will be animals, and horses YAY! but I don't think that all of our pets will be there, and we will have no sorrow, we will not even know that they are not there because there is no sorrow or sadness.

That was very harsh to say, if you are unemployed, then just don't go buying another horse right now, duh, but what you have keep! selling all that you have is just worrying! The Bible says that God cares for the sparrows how much more does He care for you? If you trust, He will take care of you AND your pets. My dad has been unemployed for almost a year now, my mom doesn't work and I don't. But God has taken care of us and drawn us closer to Him! We are a family of 6 caring for my grandmother and we have two dogs and two horses.

God did allow some things to change, I got in a bad car accident, it totaled my dads truck, but I was fine and it dropped like a $500 monthly payment! Blessing in disguise!

God cares for you! care for your animals!

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"

Sep. 5, 2009, 03:38 AM

Maybe an "oo-ee-oo" moment...some years back I made a surprise trip to see my parents on the occasion of their 50th wedding anniversary. We all went to dinner, and because it was a Friday, they had planned on going to services that night at temple, and the rabbi was going to call them up and bless them on this momentous achievement, so even though I don't practice, of course I attended.

It is traditional at the end of the service to list the names of those who are ill and ask for God's blessing for them. Ted had had an abcess, we had found the pocket, but unbeknownst to me and my vet, there was a second pocket, which explained why he was still lame. My parents knew he was still not a happy pony, but we didn't yet know why or for how long. So at the end of the service, as the rabbi listed everyone, he also listed my horse's name (my aunt, also attending, was wrinkling her brow as we have an uncommon last name, and she couldn't imagine who Theodor was..Theodor..Theodor..that's TED, YOUR HORSE!! and she all but smacked me).

That being said...the next day the pocket blew and he went sound. Oo-ee-oo.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"

Sep. 5, 2009, 03:42 AM

nightsong

Sep. 5, 2009, 05:28 AM

I do believe in God, I'm just not a Christian .

God and Christ are NOT the same tthing. Some perfectly wonderful religions (like Buddhism, which I think is a LOT closer to reality than Christianity) are not "Christian." I, in particular, see God all around me in every way every day. Christ? Not so much. Not AT ALL, as a matter of fact.

bf1

Sep. 5, 2009, 07:18 AM

May he come back in the next life as a horse........

War Admiral

Sep. 5, 2009, 09:23 AM

You can go the Scripture route and make the argument that since animals are without Original sin, they don't NEED salvation. Therefore they go to Heaven, automatically.

This, to me, is the key point.

Woodland

Sep. 5, 2009, 10:58 AM

Paradise is different for everyone. As a devout Christian i believe my animals will be in heaven. God is a loving God. He will want to comfort me(and everyone else that comes into his kingdom) Animals defined my life on Earth. They will be with me in heaven - soul or no soul.

Silly humans debating God - we can not assign value and meaning to his promise of life ever after! That is God's J-O-B. :yes: So stop it - he'll look after your needs - he has promised to!

OP do not let this derail your faith. God speaks the truth into your heart the way you can best understand. Be still and quiet and reflect and you will have your answer.

Bluey

Sep. 5, 2009, 11:06 AM

Once an adult, we should not depend on others to make us feel good or direct how we should be happy.:no:
Those that may seem to try to do so to us, like that one fellow, may mean well, so take that as a gesture of good will, even if they miss the mark a mile.:p

When they do miss who we are and how to meet our real needs, it is generally because of different frames of reference, not anything personal.:yes:
I bet he never had an animal he understood and really cared for, or he would not have said what he did.:no:

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"

Sep. 5, 2009, 11:20 AM

Bluey - I agree with your post. Maybe in a weird sort of way, this will help the OP realize she still has "riches."

Chief2

Sep. 5, 2009, 11:35 AM

Great conversation, but I think our OP has disappeared.

Personally, I love the number of times animals, and especially horses are mentioned in the bible. And what about Saint Francis of Assisi? Every animal in the forest is in there. And if God didn't care about animals one way or another, then why did he talk Noah into floating around on the high seas with an ark full of pooping animals for so long? What's the first picture the children see when being taught about Noah? The animals and the ark!

Sounds to me like Phoenix may have hit it on the nail, although I have met folks like this in other religions as well. Regardless of what religion he is from, this Elder is feigning concern for the OP, albeit with a far deeper agenda in mind. The agenda is not one that resonates with me.

My advice would be to separate the wheat from the chaff here. Consult with your finances and see if there is a creative way you can continue to worship your God and still enjoy the peace and company of your animals.

feetofclay1678

Sep. 5, 2009, 11:43 AM

Good gravy. You know, old men can be like that! Just saying what they see as practical and plain, and not worrying about feelings! It was insensitive to say that when you needed encouragement.

That said, I think my in-laws (who are baptists, and very very serious about it) would probably say that yes, animals are God's creatures and should be treated with respect (though working them or eating them is not out of line with their beliefs), and no, they don't go to heaven. But that's not because they go to hell! It's just that in their church they believe humans are a special kind of creature, above all others, with souls (or at least with special kinds of souls that are judged and so on). Animals live by instinct, and can't sin, thus they can't be condemned after death. That said, the animals you own are clearly offering you a lot of joy, and how is that not a wonderful use for them? They get your loving attention, and they return it with their affection. That's what pets do!

If you find your church supportive and helpful in every other way, than ignore this guy with his grumpy insensitive comments and turn to your church for the things it can provide. If this is the last straw and you don't agree with much else at your church, try another, perhaps younger or less conservative church.

twofatponies you are completely right. Just because a person is an elder(or in any leadership position), does not mean what they say is infallible. I dont believe that animals have a soul and will join us in heaven. But I also dont believe that they are going to hell. Hell(and heaven)are reserved for us lucky humans who are going to be judged on the life we live(and a life of good deeds does not mean we get to cross the pearly gates either), and part of the life that we live is looking after and caring for God's creatures because He gave us stewardship over them.:)

danceronice

Sep. 5, 2009, 11:49 AM

I'd say find a new church (if the OP is reading.)

My Catholic priests would never quite go so far as to say animals had souls per se just like humans, but they would say that if God wants animals in heaven there'll be animals in heaven, and since nowhere does it say there AREN'T animals in heaven, we can't say there aren't. Because only God can say there aren't and if we say that we know that there aren't for SURE, we're saying we know as much as God. And presuming to know exactly what God's thinking is a sin.

Funnily enough, they also explicitly said that we don't KNOW someone is going to hell because God determines that. (See above about what thinking you know as much as God gets you.) We have an idea of what God approves and disapproves of, and we should try to avoid offending Him, but humans are fallible and will sin. How God chooses to address that is up to God. Because he's God.

So find a new church, not the First Church of Elder @$$#@&%.

Aimee Thanatogenus

Sep. 5, 2009, 12:06 PM

Here's what I'd say:
Dear Bible-Illiterate Old Codger,
It is clear that heaven, for you, will be a sad, dark place. I pity you.
In the future your 'kick-them-while-they-are-down-ministry' technique smells a lot like my compost pile, fresh after I've both mucked out stalls and picked up dog poop in the yard.
Yes, indeed, sir, your method of narrow minded, spiteful, hate filled piety only serves to remind me that it will be a cold day in hell before I'd give up my animals on the the advice of a senile mean-spirited, shrivelled dick old bastard.
Now **** off and stay out of my life.
Yours Truly

There are many churches just like there are many perversions. Sometimes people mix up the two. I don't care how sick I get, I've got strangers who would treat me kinder than that creep from your church!
:yes:

WalkInTheWoods

Sep. 5, 2009, 12:36 PM

I dont make it to church every week, but i go when it calls to me. My church is a horse trail that winds thru a stand of pine trees. I actually call it The Church.

Although i grew up being made to go to sunday school, when i hit my teens i complained enough and was able to get out of going to church at all. My brother and sister did as they chose. My folks did go to church because my mom loved the minister. When he retired, mom didnt like his replacement and stopped attending. As the years went on the family would go to church on Easter and Christmas only. I think my parents were just trying to be a good parents and send ther kids to sunday school or church as good parents did in the 50s. I remain forever grateful they didnt force me to go to church. It was pure torture

I dont worship "God" by that name. I call the greater power Creator. I could not worship one who does not honor the animals. There are many bible beaters who can show "proof" that animals are subservient, inferior. I think on many levels animals are superior, or at least on a different level not to be compared to humans. They do not judge us humans so much do they ?

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"

Sep. 5, 2009, 12:43 PM

Actually - it is amazing to me how tolerant my horse is. Far more tolerant than many people. And he has limited ways to say "STOP THAT!! DON'T YOU GET IT!!!!!"

Eventer55

Sep. 5, 2009, 02:00 PM

When we moved to this property a few years ago a man and his wife kept coming and bringing us pies and checking on us, they told us a number of times we were always welcome to their church. Neither of us is particlarly religous, so one day the man arrived and chatted, and as always ended the conversation with our being welcome to their church.

I responded by pointing to my farm and the animals and saying "This is my church and those are my religion." I still stand by this:D

BlueEyedSorrel

Sep. 5, 2009, 02:24 PM

I do believe in God, I'm just not a Christian which is hard for people 'round here to understand... and when asked I say I belong to the "Church of the Sand Arena". That is where I find my peace, and my joy, and my moments of clarity.

Ditto. And having grown up in rural SW Ohio, I know exactly the look of confusion and consternation you get when your beliefs can't fit neatly in any one label.

My favorite explanation (or non-explanation) on the nature of God comes from the last scene in the last episode of Battlestar Galactica, in which Six says "That too is part of God's plan" and Baltar responds "You know it doesn't like that name." If it exists, whatever is out there is too great to be boxed into human perception or to conform to petty human rules. If there's an OT day, I hope this conversation continues because I'm really liking reading about everyone's perspective.

Getting back to the OP..

Twice in my life, I have had very vivid dreams about animals who had passed on, dreams in which I felt their fur and hugged them and they were at their physical peak, not the poor sick/injured creatures we released from their suffering. One dream was about my sister's horse, who colicked and couldn't be saved. The other was about a cat who was part of my life from preschool until my senior year of college (18 years!). I normally don't dream anything particularly remarkable or remember my dreams in any real detail. And these dreams happened not right after their deaths, but months to years later, after I had already accepted and moved on, so it's not as if I had them on my mind.

Was it a message or a vision or just random firings in whatever location in my brain stored those memories? I can't really explain it. All I know is I woke up with a distinct feeling that my pet was OK and was waiting for me, and it gave me comfort.

So, if believing that her animals will be with her in heaven gives the OP comfort, I don't see how it can be a bad thing.
BES

MrWinston

Sep. 5, 2009, 04:05 PM

And while I have very similar feelings and beliefs as many have expressed where structured religion is concerned and how humans aren't capable of defining God. I think that the "Elder" was much more about sharing misery than religion. Remember, he has the same disability as the OP? I would like her to consider that his PSYCHOLOGY is disabled and that he is envious that she still has the animals that she loves and that they bring her joy and sustinence.

I hope that things take a turn for the better for the OP.

debra

Sep. 5, 2009, 05:12 PM

Good gravy. You know, old men can be like that! Just saying what they see as practical and plain, and not worrying about feelings! It was insensitive to say that when you needed encouragement.

That said, I think my in-laws (who are baptists, and very very serious about it) would probably say that yes, animals are God's creatures and should be treated with respect (though working them or eating them is not out of line with their beliefs), and no, they don't go to heaven. But that's not because they go to hell! It's just that in their church they believe humans are a special kind of creature, above all others, with souls (or at least with special kinds of souls that are judged and so on). Animals live by instinct, and can't sin, thus they can't be condemned after death. That said, the animals you own are clearly offering you a lot of joy, and how is that not a wonderful use for them? They get your loving attention, and they return it with their affection. That's what pets do!

If you find your church supportive and helpful in every other way, than ignore this guy with his grumpy insensitive comments and turn to your church for the things it can provide. If this is the last straw and you don't agree with much else at your church, try another, perhaps younger or less conservative church.

BRILLIAN!! Bravo- great answer without condemnation.

tikihorse2

Sep. 5, 2009, 09:30 PM

My mom died very suddenly and unexpectedly. She was extremely devout in her faith--the pastor of her church (Lutheran) came regularly to pray with her and give her communion as she was too disabled due to severe rheumatoid arthritis to get around much at all.

Just a couple of days before she died, she told me she saw her beloved dog in a dream. Based on other things she said, in retrospect, I think she was already having near-death experiences. And the fact that she saw her dog makes me think we do indeed have our pets in heaven.

I'm Episcopalian. We bless our pets. St. Francis of Assisi could speak to the animals. Why on earth would we treat animals with such kindness and respect if they weren't a part of the afterlife?

I think that if we love our animals and want them to be in heaven with us, they'll be there.

Kim

Bluey

Sep. 5, 2009, 09:41 PM

---"Why on earth would we treat animals with such kindness and respect if they weren't a part of the afterlife?"---

That remark reads very oddly, like we would not care and be kind to our animals if we didn't have religions telling us to, with some reason like being part of an afterlife?:confused:

I think that we care for our animals because it is the right thing to do.
Most humans like to do what is right, are compassionate and conscientious of their obligations to others and the world around them.:yes:

Afterlife or not, I will treat my animals right in the here and now.:)

Manes&Tails

Sep. 5, 2009, 10:28 PM

HorsesinHaiti

Sep. 5, 2009, 10:32 PM

It might certainly be an eye-opener for him.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"

Sep. 5, 2009, 11:08 PM

And here's hoping that things resolve well for the OP, too!

Manes&Tails

Sep. 5, 2009, 11:29 PM

And here's hoping that things resolve well for the OP, too!

This thread has resolved a lot for me. If I go to church in the am I will have to see Charlie, we always sit in the foyer so we don't have to inhale perfume. I don't think I will sit with him tomorrow. :no:

tidy rabbit

Sep. 5, 2009, 11:35 PM

This thread has resolved a lot for me. If I go to church in the am I will have to see Charlie, we always sit in the foyer so we don't have to inhale perfume. I don't think I will sit with him tomorrow. :no:

Maybe you could just forgive him for his indisgression? Maybe even tell him it hurt your feelings when he said XYZ? Let him apologize and be friends again? We all have our shortcomings and our moments of stupidity right? Don't let this one thing ruin your friendship.

AiryFairy

Sep. 6, 2009, 12:58 AM

That kind of hypocrisy is exactly the reason I will have nothing to do with "organized religion", which is largely based on guilt, threats and fear. Religious zealots like the OP's elder are usually among the most cruel and heartless of humans. Your animals are part of your soul and not something to be gotten rid of as an inconvenience, something he would not understand as he has never likely loved or cared for anything but himself.

My church is a quiet Sunday morning in the backyard listening to bluebirds and enjoying the peace. Try it sometime, very spiritually satisfying.

RedMare01

Sep. 6, 2009, 01:09 AM

Well let's get really deep here, its almost a holiday! I consider myself to be extremely spiritual but not the slightest bit religious. The world is my "church" and I am with God every moment of every day. I see God in the trees and the grass and the hills and the birds and the bees etc.
I have a sister in law with the religion bug and one day she said she felt sorry for me that I didn't get to experience the fellowship of a church like she did every Sunday. She didn't know what to say when I told her I spend every moment of every day in my church, not just an hour per week so I felt sorry for her for missing out on so much. God is love and love is all around you, all you have to do is open your eyes.

Can I give you a standing ovation? I feel the exact same way, and you summed it up very eloquently.

In a nutshell- I believe in god but not religion.

It is so ironic that most of the people who claim to be the most religious are the most hypocritical. What does one of the Ten Commandments say? "Judge not lest ye be judged." You might want to point that out to your buddy the Elder. Just in case he forgot.

I do believe in some sort of an afterlife, but I don't think that god is up there sitting in an office, counting the number of hours you spent sitting in a pew to determine whether or not to open up the gates.

I know a number of lovely people who are very religious. I know an equal (or greater) number of very religious nasty people. You know what- they would be exactly the same people, regardless of religion. It just gives some people an accepted way to feel better about themselves.

I work with a lady who is constantly miserable. She can find something wrong with everything. She went on a great trip to Las Vegas and came back complaining about how scantily dressed all the women were and how that was "un-Christian" and sinful. Guess what- she spent years of her life having an affair with a married man. How does she reconcile that? I have no idea (and I don't ask).

On the other hand, my great uncle is a Methodist minister. He married my husband and I last year. A few weeks later, he got a call from one of my cousins in a panic. He and his fiancee had had their wedding planned for a year and were going to have her minister officiate. They went through all the the pre-marriage classes at her church. A week before the wedding, the minister found out they had been living together for a couple of years and refused to perform the ceremony to marry them. My uncle Lynn drove hours on a few days notice to do the ceremony. His opinion? They were already living together, so all the more reason for them to get married. No judgement involved. If only more people could be the same.

Caitlin

CosMonster

Sep. 6, 2009, 03:02 AM

Any major theological discussions aside, I have trouble believing that any loving god would exclude our loyal companions from paradise, after they have spent their lives giving us so much comfort.

OP, I hope things go well for you and that you get much comfort from your critters during this difficult time--that will make them be worth every penny you spend on them.

nightsong

Sep. 6, 2009, 05:31 AM

Ok, I am down on my luck, I have lost another job due to my disability, and an Elder (82 years old) from my church (I have been a member for 47 years) calls to check on me because he has the same disability and I quote:

"The first thing you need to do in the am is to give away and/or sale your dogs and horses due to your job lost, they are now a burden on you and if you keep them you will be worshiping your animals more than the Lord and you will not go to Heaven. You will not see your dead horse in Heaven because animals have no souls and when they die there are just dead and gone. Animals do not go to heaven, and they are only here for us to eat and use."

Ok! I have nightmares that night and am depressed the next day!!!!!!!!! I told him animals are here for us to care for and protect, animals heal, and know love, hunger, and abuse. I am not going to adopt or purchase more animals, but I am damn sure not getting rid of the ones I have!

What do you think about animals having souls and being with us in Heaven.

I guess I will never know since I am going to HELL now!!!!!!!!!!:confused::eek::cry:

While the elder is absolutely WRONG that keeping animals is "worshiping your animals more than the Lord" and that "animals are only for us to eat and use" (WHAT an egocentric attitude!!!), perhaps he has a POINT that not working steadily is not the best situation for keeping multiple horses. "I am not going to purchase or adopt more animals, but I am damn sure not going to get rid of the ones I have!" may not be a good attitude for you to have, unless you are independently wealthy or have a hefty hunk of unencumbered funds that can go to the animals.

To answer your question, I believe that animals are spiritual guides for us, and that having more than one of a species (dog, cat, etc.) keeps us from the deep connection we NEED for their guidance to come through. Also that there is no "heaven", just another step in our evolution.

pAin't_Misbehavin'

Sep. 6, 2009, 07:24 AM

This thread has resolved a lot for me. If I go to church in the am I will have to see Charlie, we always sit in the foyer so we don't have to inhale perfume. I don't think I will sit with him tomorrow. :no:

We're having an analagous problem in the Episcopal Church right now. Our issue is quite different, but the reaction from the Anglican Communion and from some in my own diocese is that we can't sit with the national church anymore.:no:

I don't think this is the way to go about it, for you or for us. I think we all need to accept that we can have fellowship and diversity of opinion.:)

Bluey

Sep. 6, 2009, 07:36 AM

This thread has resolved a lot for me. If I go to church in the am I will have to see Charlie, we always sit in the foyer so we don't have to inhale perfume. I don't think I will sit with him tomorrow. :no:

Could you not keep going on as always, since you seem to want to stay with that same group?
You are not going to change him and then, why?
Just as you don't like some of what he said, he may not like some of who you are, but that doesn't make either of you bad people.

Getting along means understanding each other, where we are coming from and forgiving that they are not always who we want them to be or we thought they were.

That he is a llittle bit less than compassionate and don't understand wanting to keep your animals above everything, if you are going to stay there, should not be reason to ostracise him, any more than it would be for him to not talk to you because you won't sell your horses.

With some people, we just don't talk about some things we know we disagree about, or ignore it if they bring them up, or laugh it off.
People can only hurt you if you let them.

Reynard Ridge

Sep. 6, 2009, 08:11 AM

What do you think about animals having souls and being with us in Heaven.

What I think, or what the church elder think are irrelevant. There is no data to demonstrate that any living thing does or does not have a soul. The concept of "soul" is faith based. You either believe it, because you chose to believe it or you don't.

If you chose to believe, then walk that road. Good luck to you.

bumknees

Sep. 6, 2009, 08:28 AM

I am not a Christian. Tried to be but the 'glove' didnt fit.
I am for lack of better word a Druid. My church is around me in the tree's, earth, and my animals.
When people tell me that animals have no souls I just look at them nd say something like " how can animals not have souls. They love unconditionally. They reamin loyal through out their lives. They will defend protect etc when necesary their 'family. What is it that says they have no souls. They do more tham many humans on this planet." That usually shuts the person up and you can see the pondering on these points going through their brains.

Can I join the chruch of the dirt enclosure/ring?

HorsesinHaiti

Sep. 6, 2009, 08:52 AM

M&T, you know both Charlie and the pastor better than we do. If Charlie tends to be stubborn and not let advice drop once he gives it, and you don't want to hold that conversation in mid foyer in mid service, then certainly go to church but sit with one of the other members somewhere else. Sounds like a decently sized church with plenty of other people to relate to.

If you think it would help the pastor wake up to how his staff are presenting the church and their Lord, then by all means print and take this thread. We church types can get so clueless as to how we come across, and taking a good look at feedback is a part of fixing that.

ABSOLUTELY, if perfume gives you two health problems til you can't sit in the sanctuary, then talk to the pastor about that. Most people would never think of perfume as causing problems in general, or wouldn't be aware of who specifically needs to avoid it. If your church is like mine, they might well be willing to designate a perfume-free section once they know there is need for it. We had plenty of folks who would skip wearing it for someone else, if they knew it was necessary.

Strictly Classical

Sep. 6, 2009, 09:12 AM

bumknees-I love your post! I couldn't agree with your words more! I am a Christain who long ago became dissatisfied with many of the judgemental nature of many fellow "Christains". Its so odd because I thought Scripture teaches for us not to be judgemental - that is only for God.

Perhaps I have an underlying Wicca tendancy, and didn't even know it. I do see God in all of Nature's beauty and bouty around me. As for my animals, they do show unconditional love in a very true sense...much more than most people I know are capable of doing.

I approach my daily care of my animal family, even riding my horses, with a spirit of worship. These are God's magnificent creatures, and it is incumbent upon us to care for them. It is the responsibility that God has granted us with. I see their care, and the enjoyment of them, as the Lord's work.

I remember a quote of Charles De Kunffy's (dressage folks will know him). I don't remember where I heard or read it, but it goes something like this: (paraphrasing) "I may never ride before thousands of spectators at the Olympic Games, but every day I ride in front of God. Not only am I responsible to my horse for the way I ride [and care] for him, but to God as well." Something about that idea has really stuck with me ever since.

I was born and raised and have lived my life in a very rural part of northwestern NC. Its very mountainous here, and many religious followers adhere to some form of an old-time Appalachain version of religion. Throughout my life, I have heard the theory that animals do not have souls and that they do not go to Heaven. I have had that opinion expressed by members of my very own family - and most are animal lovers. I'm sorry, but I can not buy into that "logic". I'm sorry - just can't go there. Everytime I look into one of my animals eyes, I see such a vibrancy and zest for life there. I also see their love for me - in their own animal way of course. Many times I have my little mare "take care" of me in questionable situations. Same goes for my dogs and cats. Their love is unconditional, and their faithfulness unquestioned.

I believe that GOD is LOVE, and where there is LOVE there is GOD. He blesses us with all GOOD THINGS, for which we sould show our gratitude and offer Thanksgiving for. My mare's breath on my face, and in my hair is a prayer and a blessing. Without a doubt God brought her into my life, and because HE knows how much she means to me how can we not enjoy an eternal relationship with Him in the next life? He knows that I can not be truly happy without her - or my many other animals that have gone on before me.

To the OP - I feel sorry for that old man. He just doesn't get it, and never will. Please, try not to take his words to heart. Focus on what YOUR heart tells you, and I think you will find peace.

Thank you too everyone who posted all the lovely verses of Scripture. As I read them, they were words to my soul and touched me DEEPLY. Isn't it ironic - its Sunday morning, I've just gotten my paramedic husband off to work, and now I'm off to the barn to care for my some of my very Best Friends in all the world. It's not Church in the traditional sense, but I have a feeling that it will be a more worshipful morning than usual. Perhaps the hand of God led me to look at this forum this morning. It has truly blessed me - made me angry, cry, and laugh. Say what you will about COTH at times - we can be a controversial and sometimes harsh bunch at best - but this thread is a true testament to the good things about all of us Critter People!

Blessings to All - from Melissa

Whisper

Sep. 6, 2009, 09:56 AM

I agree with a few others that it's irresponsible to keep several horses if you can't afford to care for them. Can you lease them out or find someone who can care for them in the short term until you can get back on your feet?

I attended church with a friend of mine, and they allow well-behaved cats and dogs to attend services. The pianist/music director brought his Australian Shepherd and a member of the congregation brought a Pug when I went. They were very quiet and respectful.

Perhaps you should remind Charlie of Baalam's ass, http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%2022:21-34&version=KJV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers+22&version=KJV) who saw the angel and saved his life. I think that argues for animals being *more* spiritually aware than we are (and yay, it's horse related too!).;) I think you should discuss things with your pastor, and explain that while Charlie probably meant well, that it made you uncomfortable.

Bluey

Sep. 6, 2009, 10:07 AM

---"I agree with a few others that it's irresponsible to keep several horses if you can't afford to care for them. Can you lease them out or find someone who can care for them in the short term until you can get back on your feet?"---

That is not at all what this thread is all about.

This is about someone telling someone else, that is down on their luck, that their beliefs about their animals is wrong and in an insensitive way.

The initial motive may have been to point out what you say there, but that is immaterial to the seemingly callous way he had to give that advice, disregarding the OP's feelings and in a way, contrary to the context of their religious beliefs.

Some people are bumblers socially.
Too bad that he was supposed to be a pillar of his church as an elder and was being seemingly rude with that advice.:no:

Guilherme

Sep. 6, 2009, 10:16 AM

What I think, or what the church elder think are irrelevant. There is no data to demonstrate that any living thing does or does not have a soul. The concept of "soul" is faith based. You either believe it, because you chose to believe it or you don't.

If you chose to believe, then walk that road. Good luck to you.

If the Elder is being Biblical then he's referring to Genesis which gives dominion over the animal kingdom to Adam. This dominion, however, is limited by Proverbs 12/10 which says, "The righteous man regards the lives of his beasts, but the wicked man's heart is ruthless."

Thus a clear obligation is imposed. And note that since dominion is catholic (note the small "c" :) ) so is the obligation. It's not limited to just domestic animals.

I'm unaware of any Biblical basis to establish "souls" in non-humans. Indeed, the concept of a human "soul" does not develop in Judaic thought until they come in contact with Egyptian and Greek thought about an afterlife. It reaches full fruition in Christian thought which postulates not only a soul but resurection of the physical body.

As to the specific question, a Christian person who loses the ability to properly care for pets and other owned animals has a duty imposed by Proverbs. If they are in dire straits then they must sell, donate, or put down animals for which they cannot care. To keep them in spite of a lack of resources is as cruel (from the animal's point of view) as a person who just does it for giggles and grins. This may be a tragedy for the human, but life does not contain a "no tragedy" clause.

If someone is a non-believer then they can base their analysis on whatever they wish.

G.

Whisper

Sep. 6, 2009, 10:22 AM

Bluey, there were two different issues, so I tried to address both of them! I gave her a suggested scripture, and suggested she talk with the pastor about Charlie's approach. I agree he handled it very badly, and if that's the way that he "ministers" to the congregation, he should no longer be an elder. I feel very strongly though that it's better to find homes (either temporary or permanently) for her animals until she is back on her feet, unless she has a significant amount of savings. Too many people wait until they are desperate and need a home *stat*, or even after they have become neglected or need vet care they can't afford. That's unfair to the animals.

lindasp62

Sep. 6, 2009, 10:38 AM

Ok, I am down on my luck, I have lost another job due to my disability, and an Elder (82 years old) from my church (I have been a member for 47 years) calls to check on me because he has the same disability and I quote:

"The first thing you need to do in the am is to give away and/or sale your dogs and horses due to your job lost, they are now a burden on you and if you keep them you will be worshiping your animals more than the Lord and you will not go to Heaven. You will not see your dead horse in Heaven because animals have no souls and when they die there are just dead and gone. Animals do not go to heaven, and they are only here for us to eat and use."

I stopped at my favorite little store on the way home from the feed store - truck loaded down with feed, shavings, minerals, mineral block and this lady comes into the store and asks me if I am the owner of the truck. I told her yes, thinking I was in the way of the pumps and she yelled at me and told me "you have no business owning horses because in this economy everyone should do everything they can to save money and you are just wasting your money when it could be going to help people in need".

Isn't it ironic how some people can sit up there on their "high horse" and make such judgements" (funny but sad)

In Buddhism, all living creatures, animals included, are considered "sentient beings"...capable of feeling and suffering. As well, they have Buddha Nature (to be like Buddha...have the qualities of) and so therefore are also able to become "enlightened" and reach Nirvana. In Buddhism, there is "rebirth", so any human could return as an animal, or an animal into a human. Therefore, any senient being living now in the animal realm could be our friend, mother, sister, in their rebirth. This is also why Buddhism practices being kind to ALL LIVING CREATURES..as they are all around us in their spirit, their current rebirth, etc. There are tons of references and symbols of horses in Buddhist scripture and art; Here is one:

"Song of the Galloping Horse of a Yogi:"

In the mountain hermitage which is my body,
In the temple of my breast
At the summit of the triangle of my heart,
The horse which is my mind flies like the wind.

He gallops on the plains of great bliss.
If he persists, he will attain the rank of a victorious Buddha.
Going backward, he cuts the root of samsara;
Going forward he reaches the high land of buddhahood.
Astride such a horse, one attains the highest illumination.

~translation by Losang P. Lhalungpa. The 100, 000 Songs of Milarepa.

deltawave

Sep. 6, 2009, 10:39 AM

Religion can be so cruel, specifically the humans that presume to define who and what God is. :no:

Stick with God if this is what makes you tick, and skip the human interpretation known as religion. :yes: Need to know what to do, how to treat others, including animals? To borrow (and manipulate slightly) a phrase--"what would God do?". ;)

Bluey

Sep. 6, 2009, 10:46 AM

Ajierene

Sep. 6, 2009, 12:21 PM

I'm unaware of any Biblical basis to establish "souls" in non-humans. Indeed, the concept of a human "soul" does not develop in Judaic thought until they come in contact with Egyptian and Greek thought about an afterlife. It reaches full fruition in Christian thought which postulates not only a soul but resurection of the physical body.

As to the specific question, a Christian person who loses the ability to properly care for pets and other owned animals has a duty imposed by Proverbs. If they are in dire straits then they must sell, donate, or put down animals for which they cannot care. To keep them in spite of a lack of resources is as cruel (from the animal's point of view) as a person who just does it for giggles and grins. This may be a tragedy for the human, but life does not contain a "no tragedy" clause.

If someone is a non-believer then they can base their analysis on whatever they wish.

G.

Great points. The quotes of horses being ridden in heaven do not describe horses being there postmortem - just that they are there, doing their service as God described. God could have created them in heaven specifically for the purpose of the Army and they may have never stepped foot on Earth.

Everything is as you believe it, in religion. The Elder probably is firm and comfortable with his belief. If he is a reasonable man, Manes and Tails can have a discussion with him regarding this belief and possibly end up agreeing to not agree on the subject. It is the responsibility of the church leaders to accept the flock as they are. If you look carefully in the Bible, there are several parables that remind humans it is not their place to judge. As humans, this happens anyway, but the goal is to not judge. That is the job of God, according to the Bible.

It is actually very pragmatic to foster the belief that animals do not have a soul. Look at your dog, you feel it has a soul and therefore its death is hard to tolerate. What if you had the same degree of belief about the pig, the cow, the sheep, the chicken? How much harder would it be to kill and eat these animals? This is especially true in a time when there was less science, and more mythical/superstitious beliefs.

In order to alleviate these issues, including someone being ostracized for feeding their starving family bacon, the belief that animals do not have souls is fostered. Consider the commandment 'though shall not kill (murder)' - how would you reconcile eating animals with animals having souls?

But, that is all these are - beliefs and to ostracize someone (such as not sitting next to them in church) for their beliefs does not follow the doctrine of loving your neighbor as yourself (referenced various times in the Bible: http://www.topical-bible-studies.org/24-0003.htm)

This concept also spans religions, being seen in Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and various Native American Traditions.

Though I do agree that finding a home (temporary or permanent) for the animals may be the best - but that depends on how long the owner is out of work and how depleted their resources become.

nightsong

Sep. 6, 2009, 01:43 PM

AiryFairy

Sep. 6, 2009, 03:11 PM

The OP is apparently female, middle-aged or older, lives alone, is unemployed, cannot keep a job, is "down on her luck," has multiple dogs and horses, and says "I'm damn sure not getting rid of any of them," Hoarder.

That statement is blatantly antagonistic bordering on the trollish. Any one of us could be one paycheck away from where she is right now. If you've looked at all the animal shelters overflowing and all the horses being sent to slaughter for lack of homes, you might get that it's not so easy to just "turf" your pets when times get tough. The fact that she is female, middle-aged or older and lives alone has nothing to do with anything. Back under the bridge with you.

Guilherme

Sep. 6, 2009, 05:54 PM

That statement is blatantly antagonistic bordering on the trollish. Any one of us could be one paycheck away from where she is right now. If you've looked at all the animal shelters overflowing and all the horses being sent to slaughter for lack of homes, you might get that it's not so easy to just "turf" your pets when times get tough. The fact that she is female, middle-aged or older and lives alone has nothing to do with anything. Back under the bridge with you.

And all civilization is about three meals away from collapse.

The hard truth is that the OP's circumstances mean she must make hard, unpleasant choices. I don't know if there's "hoarder" behavior here or not. But the duty remains even if the income doesn't.

G.

YoTambien

Sep. 6, 2009, 06:05 PM

Here is a book that someone needs to loan to that "elder":

Animals As Teachers and Healers by Susan Chernak McElroy

Snippet from the description on Amazon:

"A woman escapes an abusive relationship by observing how her boyfriend treated her two Arabian horses . . . a German shepherd cocoons its body around a toddler during a house fire . . . a coyote gives a couple wisdom about their rebellious daughter . . . a little three-legged frog imparts a valuable lesson to a frightened nine-year-old girl. Unique and compelling, Animals as Teachers & Healers invites us to reconnect with the boundless gifts of joy, wisdom, and deep healing that flow from our ageless and intimate relationship with the animal kingdom. "

Miss Aria

Sep. 6, 2009, 06:30 PM

I think telling someone they must get rid of their animals because they no longer have a job etc is cruel. Those same animals may be keeping that person sane. Every situation is different and it's not for us to tell anyone to get rid of their beloved animals or call them a hoarder.

Long ago there was a period in my life when I lost my job and didn't know what I was going to do to feed my horse and dog. Not once did I ever even think of getting rid of them, they were the glue that held me together.

Instead, I found work wherever I could, even to the point of being a census counter. Somehow I squeaked by until I found a job that paid enough to get me back on my feet, and none of us went without food. I would hope the OP can do the same thing without sacrificing her animals.

CosMonster

Sep. 6, 2009, 07:04 PM

There are tons of references and symbols of horses in Buddhist scripture and art; Here is one:

"Song of the Galloping Horse of a Yogi:"

In the mountain hermitage which is my body,
In the temple of my breast
At the summit of the triangle of my heart,
The horse which is my mind flies like the wind.

He gallops on the plains of great bliss.
If he persists, he will attain the rank of a victorious Buddha.
Going backward, he cuts the root of samsara;
Going forward he reaches the high land of buddhahood.
Astride such a horse, one attains the highest illumination.

~translation by Losang P. Lhalungpa. The 100, 000 Songs of Milarepa.

I've always liked that one. My father is Buddhist and I remember as a child I always liked Buddhism better of my parents' religions (my mother is Christian) because of all the horses. :)

My other favorite is the use of a frolicking horse as an analogy for the mind's antics when one is trying to meditate. It makes me smile.

Bluey

Sep. 6, 2009, 07:13 PM

I, the OP is still here and reading every word, just not feeling well and spending as much time with my horses and dogs as I can before I go to Hell?:winkgrin:

This has turned out to be a great thread, just loaded with information.:)

Thanks everyone for your very kind and caring thoughts. I may print this thread and take it to church with me in the morning and give it to my preacher?

I hope, if you really did that, that you were kind with your words, as he probably meant well with his advice.
It may be a little harder to learn that someone took our words as a put down, when we meant them well, than just hearing some careless words that hurt us, as you did.:(

pAin't_Misbehavin'

Sep. 6, 2009, 07:44 PM

I hope, if you really did that, that you were kind with your words, as he probably meant well with his advice.

With respect, I'm not sure what you're basing that assumption on?:) I'd think most of us would consider the Elder's words pretty harsh and judgmental. Why do you believe he meant them well?

nightsong - the prize for the Olympian leap of illogic belongs to you. Hoarder, indeed. Middle-aged, female, multi-critter household, temporarily unemployed and determined to meet her responsibilities - equals hoarder to you? Oh yeah, sure, I can see how you got there.:rolleyes: You know, if you're looking for work, I hear the PSPCA is hiring.:lol:

AiryFairy

Sep. 6, 2009, 07:44 PM

I, the OP is still here and reading every word, just not feeling well and spending as much time with my horses and dogs as I can before I go to Hell?:winkgrin:

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you don't have to worry about going to Hell because there's no such thing.....There's no such thing as Satan either, he's just a convenient excuse for people who refuse to control their own behavior and don't want to take responsibility for it.....;) Mr. Miseryguts who tells you to get rid of your animals seems to enjoy his own personal hell, of his own making, but you don't have to go there.

Bluey

Sep. 6, 2009, 07:56 PM

With respect, I'm not sure what you're basing that assumption on?:) I'd think most of us would consider the Elder's words pretty harsh and judgmental. Why do you believe he meant them well?

nightsong - the prize for the Olympian leap of illogic belongs to you. Hoarder, indeed. Middle-aged, female, multi-critter household, temporarily unemployed and determined to meet her responsibilities - equals hoarder to you? Oh yeah, sure, I can see how you got there.:rolleyes: You know, if you're looking for work, I hear the PSPCA is hiring.:lol:

I doubt that he was purposefully being rude to her, but of course I don't have any way of knowing that.
Still, just because some may have done wrong, we should not also do wrong back.
That is all I meant with my words.:(

pAin't_Misbehavin'

Sep. 6, 2009, 08:03 PM

I doubt that he was purposefully being rude to her, but of course I don't have any way of knowing that.
Still, just because some may have done wrong, we should not also do wrong back.
That is all I meant with my words.:(

Oh, I agree.:) But I think letting the pastor know the kind of advice one of the Elders is dispensing may be a good thing. He or she may feel the Elder's ministry places a stumbling block in the way of some parishioners.

Of course, it may just start a big divisive fuss, which no congregation needs - I don't have any way of knowing that, either.:)

dizzywriter

Sep. 6, 2009, 08:14 PM

I am sorry this happened. I know there are those who believe there are no animals in heaven. I guess we will find out when we get there.

And for those who say there are no animals in heaven, I ask about the Rev 19:11.. where it says, 11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

If there were not horses in heaven, then just WHERE did the horses come from? A special stable kept just for the purpose somewhere in Texas?

Remember in times like these Dr. Swindol wrote "Christians are not perfect. Just forgiven'.

I wish you the best on taking care of those things/creatures in which you were entrusted.

I haven't read the whole thread (I just keep popping in hoping for an OT day to start SOON, MODS (yes, that's me shouting), but as soon as I read the OP, I thought of the lions lying down with the lambs or some such other imagery from Revelations. Textually, I think the horses and horsemen auger in the apocalypse, but once everyone who deserves it raptures (I think that's a verb) into heaven, it might just be lions and lambs.

OP, that's a jesting comment to what sounded like a well-intentioned but tone-deaf response to your troubles.I haven't studied the Revelations much since a BFF went born again on me in college (and I only did it to arm myself with information). But I find anyone expressing certainty about a supreme being's plans or intentions to be arrogant.

That said, having been raised a Catholic and attending years of Sunday school, I always found the received wisdom of heaven to be awfully boring. Even as a little girl, I thought: you mean we just sit around and look at God for eternity, like church 24/7? I guess that makes me the wrong person to comment about animals and souls and what all of us do when we no longer are.

tkhawk

Sep. 6, 2009, 08:57 PM

I always found the received wisdom of heaven to be awfully boring. Even as a little girl, I thought: you mean we just sit around and look at God for eternity, like church 24/7? I guess that makes me the wrong person to comment about animals and souls and what all of us do when we no longer are.

Mark Twain, " Go to heaven for the Climate, Hell for the Company".

I think I agree!:lol:

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"

Sep. 7, 2009, 12:07 AM

...hmmmm...so is limbo (if it still exists?) when you can't decide if it's too hot or too cold?

mkevent

Sep. 7, 2009, 04:43 PM

Dressage Geek- I thought that was menopause!!

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"

Sep. 7, 2009, 09:58 PM

Dressage Geek- I thought that was menopause!!

Then the Geek in me must ask, what about guys? Do they not go to hell? I know I've suggested to a few of them to go there, but typical guys, they probably got lost and wouldn't ask for directions...wouldn't that count as limbo?

And a question: people like Lisa Williams, John Edwards - when they "talk" to peoples' dead relatives, sometimes (rarely, I think) the dog will show up. Never cats (well, that I understand - they don't always show up much in this life). So do iguanas and hamsters not have enough eternal life force to come through? WHY DON'T PEOPLES' HORSES COME THROUGH WITH THESE GUYS??? They have a LOT Of energy, one would think.

dizzywriter

Sep. 7, 2009, 10:31 PM

Maybe it's a size thing. I mean, protozoa are alive. But I can't get too worked up about them being in heaven.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"

Sep. 7, 2009, 10:44 PM

Yes, but wouldn't somebody's warmblood trump a Yorkie?

AiryFairy

Sep. 7, 2009, 10:51 PM

Then the Geek in me must ask, what about guys? Do they not go to hell? I know I've suggested to a few of them to go there, but typical guys, they probably got lost and wouldn't ask for directions...wouldn't that count as limbo?

And a question: people like Lisa Williams, John Edwards - when they "talk" to peoples' dead relatives, sometimes (rarely, I think) the dog will show up. Never cats (well, that I understand - they don't always show up much in this life). So do iguanas and hamsters not have enough eternal life force to come through? WHY DON'T PEOPLES' HORSES COME THROUGH WITH THESE GUYS??? They have a LOT Of energy, one would think.

Sonya Fitzpatrick regularly communicated with animals that had passed on when she did her Pet Psychic show on AP, apparently pretty accurately if you ask the owners.
http://www.sonyafitzpatrick.com/about-sonya.html

tkhawk

Sep. 7, 2009, 11:10 PM

I spent my childhood split between India and the Middle east. Most of my adult life here in the U.S. Here I have explored every kind of religious/spiritual practice possible.

In the end it just confused me!:lol: I have yet to come across something that can explain it all. Parts yes, but not the whole. Think about it, the earth is like a cell in a body. The solar system, then the milky way, then multiple galaxies and if you look at quantum physics, mutliple instances and possibilities. In this we are a tiny organism on a rock with water that is hurtling around space . I try and use science for most, but science is not static. It is dynamic and ever growing too.

So do animals have spirits? Do humans have spirits? Well what is a spirit/soul? Even light and darkness have different meanings depending on the religion. In Hinduism, darkness and light are just two sides of the same coin. Darkness is just the unformed, where time and space cease to exist and light is form, structure-what we see -solid stuff. Nobody there is scared of the darkness. Other religions view them differently.

I just don't see much difference between us and animals-in the grand scheme of things. That is in terms of us being tiny little creatures in a little rock that floats in space around a ball of fire. Now I do accept the limitations in cognitive function-animals can't do all the cool stuff we do-drive, texting etc. etc. but that is why I enjoy their company. It is almost like being together with some primal energy-where you are you. Just you and the horse or dog -"YOU". Not some role given to you by society, not some belief that you are supposed to belive is the absolute truth , just because you are born into that religion or creed or race or gender or orientation or whatever.

Life is fleeting. I have watched so many I know die. So many. Now it doesn't affect me that much anymore- long ago I realized, one day it would be my time too and that could be tomorrow or another half a century away. Funny , once you realize that, it frees you. religions come and go too-from the Egyptians to the pre christian to who knows what it will be. I certainly believe there is something out there-just realized it is possibly too big and complex for my tiny mind to comprehend. Kind of like an ant trying to figure out how the earth functions. So I accept the unkown and enjoy the known and still explore-but now am more shifitng into enjoy the journey not the destination mode!;)

YoTambien

Sep. 7, 2009, 11:23 PM

At the risk of sounding a bit flaky, here's my experience with pets in the hereafter:

My grandparents (on my Dad's side) passed away while I was still in school. First my grandfather, and a few years later, my grandmother. The family divided up the belongings, and since the other relatives lived out of state, our family got the cat. This cat was about 12 years old and was a favorite of my grandfathers.

We had the cat for about a year, and he kind of became "my" cat. I had a dream one night that my grandparents came down from heaven while I was in the backyard playing with the cat. In my dream I asked them how it was in heaven, and they replied that heaven was very nice, but they missed their cat and decided to get him and bring him back with them.

I pleaded that I really loved the cat and could I keep him a little while longer? My grandparents replied that I could keep him for just a little while but they would be back to get him. They climbed back to heaven on a ladder that was next to our garage in the back yard. I didn't tell anyone about the dream then because it just seemed kinda weird.

About a month later, the cat died. He had been outside and my mom discovered him. She woke up because she thought she had heard voices on the patio and went outside to see what was going on. My dad also had a dream that night that his mom stopped by to visit.

It was a school day, and when I got home, my dad had already buried the cat.....next to the garage in our back yard.

Manes&Tails

Sep. 7, 2009, 11:47 PM

Someone asked if his stallion would get his ba**s back, I think so, just like the blind will get their eyesight back, people with missing limbs will be whole again and so on. Just never thought about it before!:winkgrin:

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"

Sep. 8, 2009, 12:20 AM

I hope I get the herniated disc back and the cartilage in my knees...of course, if I get to heaven I'll be an FEI rider there anyway, regardless!

Manes&Tails

Sep. 8, 2009, 12:54 AM

I hope I get the herniated disc back and the cartilage in my knees...of course, if I get to heaven I'll be an FEI rider there anyway, regardless!

I hope I look like I did 30 years ago!

Bluey

Sep. 8, 2009, 07:01 AM

I hope I come back a foot taller, so I don't have to keep looking up at people.:lol:

nightsong

Sep. 8, 2009, 07:13 AM

nightsong - the prize for the Olympian leap of illogic belongs to you. Hoarder, indeed. Middle-aged, female, multi-critter household, temporarily unemployed and determined to meet her responsibilities - equals hoarder to you? Oh yeah, sure, I can see how you got there.:rolleyes: You know, if you're looking for work, I hear the PSPCA is hiring.:lol:

Well, the only person we know of who has acyually MET the O.P. told her she ought to get rid of all the dogs and horses IMMEDIATELY. I suspect that someone who's known her for as long as he has has SOME knowledge of her THAT YOU DON'T. And this is what *I* ACTUALLY said: "The OP is apparently female, middle-aged or older, lives alone, is unemployed, cannot keep a job, is "down on her luck," has multiple dogs and horses, and says "I'm damn sure not getting rid of any of them," Hoarder."

I have no idea what that multi-letter THING is, but thank you SO much for the insult.

deltawave

Sep. 8, 2009, 07:53 AM

Well, the only person we know of who has acyually MET the O.P. told her she ought to get rid of all the dogs and horses IMMEDIATELY.

This same person told her she was an idolater for keeping animals and was going straight to hell for it, too--how much credibility do we want to give this primary observer?

Boomer

Sep. 8, 2009, 07:59 AM

".............. You will not see your dead horse in Heaven because animals have no souls and when they die there are just dead and gone. Animals do not go to heaven, and they are only here for us to eat and use."

Guess he forgot that we humans are "animals" too. Although it seems like he should be more in the veggie catagory.

Lots of good quotes on here. Hope they have helped :)

FancyASB

Sep. 9, 2009, 01:52 AM

My one Vet said everytime he had to put a horse down he would say a prayer for them and always felt their soul leave their body. This was always a great comfort to me.

deltawave

Sep. 9, 2009, 09:53 AM

Not sure if this made it into the thread: :)

For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other. All have the same breath....All go to the same place. Ecclesiastes 3: 19-20

Altag

Sep. 12, 2009, 10:21 PM

Guess he forgot that we humans are "animals" too. Although it seems like he should be more in the veggie catagory.

*Sputter, snork* Now THAT was a good one, Boomer!!

ACP

Sep. 12, 2009, 10:48 PM

Everything that comes from God - like the animals we love so much - goes to God.

Personally I want to go to horse heaven. :D

Susan P

Sep. 12, 2009, 10:53 PM

Well put, a soul, a spirit, well does an animal have to have one to be offered to live in Heaven? God can put them back together again, we can be reunited with our animal companions if God sees fit. If He made them and knows how much happiness they gave to us, why wouldn't we have them in Heaven???

I'm sure the man who called you meant well, but he sounds a bit bossy and butinski. I would dismiss his comments knowing he's an old dude who thinks he's doing the right thing telling you that but I wouldn't take it into consideration, it was probably something he was told years ago.

I do agree, if you can't care for your animals in the near future, you should start searching now for potential homes and look for ones where you can visit. People that take good care of your critters should be proud to show you how well they care for them and love them. When I bought a horse, I always welcomed the previous owners to visit, I loved showing them how well they were doing and offered for them to stop by to see them anytime. Maybe you can find someone like that.

God loves you and He loves your animals more than you do. So I would not worry about their eternity and in Heaven all of our tears will be wiped away. It wouldn't hurt to put in a request to the Lord for all of your critters to join you in Heaven, it's God's Kingdom, and He gets to invite whomever He chooses, LOL. :winkgrin:

Awww Mains and Tails, that was just a very cruel thing for anyone to say to you. I think this is such a misconception on everyones part. First of all, the Bible doesn't say much about animals at all in this regards. But we do know that it talks about a "new heaven and a new earth." Well, we know that God created earth and then the animals to occupy the earth. So, I feel we will see our animals again some day, and will enjoy them on a perfect earth, the way God intended.

I do think you need to be responsible with what God has given you. If you find you can no longer take care of your animals, then, yes, you should find a better home. But that should be your decision, no one else.

God bless and (((hugs))),
Joan

MistyBlue

Sep. 12, 2009, 11:02 PM

Hoot&Tick, don't let what other people say define how you act and react. Try to ignore it and rise above it. It was a crude thing to say no matter if it was meant in a helpful spirit or not.

Susan P

Sep. 12, 2009, 11:16 PM

Another Scripture that comes to mind when I think of Charlie is the one that says to take the beam out of your eye before you attempt to remove the splinter from someone else's eye. That is to say that before you offer to help someone else with how they live or what they are doing you better clean up your own life first. Most of us are not ready to offer advice to someone else, we are too often in need of good counsel ourselves.

Equibrit

Sep. 13, 2009, 09:12 AM

equineartworks

Sep. 13, 2009, 09:24 AM

I know I experienced a little Heaven on Earth this morning...

I have been on the couch or in bed since Thursday. This is something that I have never done so I assure that I am beyond deathly ill right now. This morning I was missing the barn and horses soooo much that I threw on a robe and went out to help feed.

The sun was rising and it was cool enough out to see the horses breath. The sun was behind them and they were silhouetted with a golden glow. The fall whiskers were highlighted and the steam was rising from their noses. They were nickering softly and it was just ethereal to see. I stood there and watched them eat for a few minutes and then had to get back to the couch.

I think we enjoy moments like this on earth as a preview of what we will have in Heaven. :)

Keepthepeace

Sep. 13, 2009, 09:33 AM

I am not sure who his "god" is, but I wouldn't WANT to go to his heaven with what he says about animals! What a butthole!!!
Rainbow Bridge is MY idea of HEAVEN. I'm going there to be with my beloved animals.

Guilherme

Sep. 13, 2009, 10:11 AM

Guess he forgot that we humans are "animals" too. Although it seems like he should be more in the veggie catagory.

Lots of good quotes on here. Hope they have helped :)

If the guy's a Biblical literalist then he forgot nothing. In Genesis humans are a separate creation.

I don't support his viewpoint, necessarily, but he has as much right to his opinion, and to state it, as those with differing views.

And since the OP says she goes to the same church then does she also hold a literalist view?

G.

Carol Ames

Sep. 14, 2009, 02:26 PM

I was told the same after the first stroke; in fact that God had "allowed the stroke, in order to bring me back to Him, because the animals were "in the way:mad:"But, this was / is the same person who, when talking about heaven" said "God wants us to be happy, especially when we are there with Hm; He knows what makes us happy, and so, our animals will be there with us ;); sometimes, I can't wait!I will be healthy and whole again; there have certainly been times in the last 10 years when I have looked forward to that!:eek::yes::o

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"

Sep. 14, 2009, 03:01 PM

Carol, I so wish this for you as well! Of course we'd prefer you didn't have to wait until another life!!!

This is what I find so upsetting. When someone is struck with a traumatic injury, illness, death - people don't know what to say. I was so upset when someone did that to me (it was suggested that this was God's way of helping me decide what I wanted to do with my life, because apparently God hadn't been paying attention through the whole grad school application process...HELLO!). So I had to translate in my head: "DG, this really sucks that this happened to you. I don't know what to do or say." Response: "It just helps that you care."

Sometimes, of course, it is very difficult to do that translation in your head because you are gritting your teeth so hard.

dalpal

Sep. 14, 2009, 03:11 PM

Ride2Dreams

Sep. 14, 2009, 04:13 PM

Whoa, obviously everyone here on this board agrees with my view points as well. I am not Christian by any means but believe strongly in people having faith that suits them. There is a higher power out there and everyone interprets it differently. Some interpretations however I feel are just flat out wrong. All I can think of in this case is a story I vaguely remember sometime back in my youth when my parents did take me to church. It is about a man whom on his way to heaven comes across his dog and at the gates is told he cannot cross into heaven with his dog. He declines heaven and continues on his way only to find out that it was a test and he passed it? Does anyone know the story and have a copy of it?

Edit to say I found it or a version of it:
An old man and his dog were walking along a country road, enjoying the scenery, when it suddenly occurred to the man that he was actually dead.

He remembered dying, and that his dog too had been dead for many years. He wondered where the road would lead them, and continued onward.

After a while, they came to a high, white stone wall along one side of the road. It looked like fine marble. At the top of a long hill a tall white arch that gleamed in the sunlight broke it. When he was standing before it, he saw a magnificent gate in the arch that looked like mother of pearl, and the street that led to the gate looked like pure gold.

He was pleased that he had finally arrived at heaven, and the man and his dog walked toward the gate. As he got closer, he saw someone sitting at a beautifully carved desk off to one side. When he was close enough, he called out, "Excuse me, but is this heaven?"

"Yes, it is, sir," the man answered.

"Wow! Would you happen to have some water?" the man asked.

"Of course, sir. Come right in, and I'll have some ice water brought right up." The gatekeeper gestured to his rear, and the huge gate began to open.

"I assume my friend can come in?" the man asked, gesturing toward his dog.

But the reply was "I'm sorry, sir, but we don't accept pets."

The man thought about it then thanked the gatekeeper, turned back toward the road, and continued in the direction he had been going.

After another long walk, he reached the top of another long hill, and he came to a dirt road that led through a farm gate.

There was no fence, and it looked as if the gate had never been closed, as grass had grown up around it. As he approached the gate, he saw a man just inside, sitting in the shade of a tree in a rickety old chair, reading a book.

"Excuse me!" he called to the reader. "Do you have any water?"

"Certainly, There's a pump over there," the man said, pointing to a place that couldn't be seen from outside the gate. Come on in and make yourself at home."

"How about my friend here?" the traveler gestured to the dog "He's welcome too, and there's a bowl by the pump," he said.

They walked through the gate and, sure enough, there was an old-fashioned hand pump with a dipper hanging on it and a bowl next to it on the ground. The man filled the bowl for his dog; he then took a long drink himself.

When both were satisfied, he and the dog walked back toward the man, who was sitting under the tree waiting for them, and asked, "What do you call this place?"

"This is heaven," was the answer.

"Well, that's confusing," the traveler said. "It certainly doesn't look like heaven, and there's another man down the road who said that place was heaven."

"Oh, you mean the place with the gold street and pearly gates?"

"Yes, it was beautiful."

"Nope. That's hell."

"Doesn't it offend you for them to use the name of heaven like that?"

"No. I can see how you might think so, but it actually saves us a lot of time. They screen out the people who are willing to leave their best friends behind."

I remember at the time the father of my old church used it as a lesson in loyalty and the meaning and value of friendship.

katarine

Sep. 14, 2009, 04:59 PM

I don't know why we all are supposed to agree on our belief system.

That church elder was thinking about the brass tacks of getting the bills paid. He meant no harm.

I am pretty sure my dear neighbor who is an old school southern Baptist would tell me my horses aren't going to be in Heaven. I'm not going to ask him LOL, but I well expect his thoughts are just that...that in Heaven everything is so different and wondrous there's no place for horses, no need, or however you'd phrase it. I respect his right to believe that. I love that sweet couple, they are good folks who kindly let us free lease a wonderful field, they like seeing my horses out there since they quit the cow business.

It's his right to believe what he believes, folks.

Trevelyan96

Sep. 14, 2009, 04:59 PM

Three Bears.. Thanks for posting. I was looking for that in my email archives, as its one of the few of the many email forwards I've ever kept and passed along.

To the OP... there are very few people alive on earth today who can truthfully claim that they KNOW GOD'S WILL! In every religion, we are relying on human interpretation.

IMHO, when people use religion to browbeat, shame, incite hatred, or discourage, they are actually doing the exact opposite of any possible Supreme Being's plan for us would be.

Find your inspiration in the things that you know bring out the BEST IN YOU, and you will have peace within you. It is only when we let the negative attitudes of others stop us from giving love naturally and generously that we begin to feel stressed and inadequate.

Sorry... didn't mean to get philisophical... just this whole subject of what people have twisted religion and faith to in the world makes me nuts somtimes.

Ride2Dreams

Sep. 14, 2009, 05:32 PM

Hah, finally read through it all. Someone posted the story I was thinking about previously *facepalms*

deltawave

Sep. 14, 2009, 05:34 PM

IMHO, when people use religion to browbeat, shame, incite hatred, or discourage, they are actually doing the exact opposite of any possible Supreme Being's plan for us would be.

Yay for this. :yes: I often envision God cringing when he looks down and sees the often unspeakable things that are done "in His name". :eek: :no:

tkhawk

Sep. 14, 2009, 06:50 PM

To the OP... there are very few people alive on earth today who can truthfully claim that they KNOW GOD'S WILL! In every religion, we are relying on human interpretation.

.

That is very true. I think I mentioned this in another thread. I was raised Hindu. Back in those days, a cow was very valuable. So the priestly classes wrote that if one of your relatives died, you have to "donate" a cow to the priest. In some areas, they also wrote that you have to give a steel cupboard(a kind of cabinet). It really varied by the area and the times. Nowadays cold hard cash will do!!:lol: I seriously doubt God is sitting up there and saying oh your relative is dead and if you don't give a cow or a cupboard to the priest I will hold your relative's soul in limbo until you do so??:confused:

Or even the Taliban Mullahs of Afghanistan. When they ruled , you could not drink alcohol, shave your beards(for men) , dance, fly kites, show your face or any body part in public(for women), listen to music, watch movies and so on and so forth-beacuse that was the will of god. Yet now the Taliban is the biggest drug dealer in opium in Afghanistan!:no::o

Any structured religion in this world falls into that trap. For you have one human intrepreting the will of God to another, based on the times and their version of reality. If you believe in God-I certainly beleive in a higher power, just not a human like figure that sits there in the clouds- then you should be able to see that the same one that cretaed us has created multiple galaxies and stars and planets and humans and atoms and just infinite forms of matter. I just don't buy that one human or a chosen few are somehow so special that they alone speak for God and the rest of us need interpretors. Sorry I like my own conenction and seek my own truth and I certainly respect your vision of the truth-just don't come and try and shove it down my throat especially when I am feeling down and out-that is the thing about this "elder" that is not right.

Equibrit

Sep. 14, 2009, 07:54 PM

ALWAYS go with what scripture says over what man claims.

Who wrote the scripture ?

Guilherme

Sep. 14, 2009, 08:44 PM

Time for some Ray Stevens:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76ohvqwsNkk

Lyrics:

Woke up this mornin', turned on the t.v. set.
there in livin' color, was somethin' I can't forget.
This man was preachin' at me, yeah, layin' on the charm
askin' me for twenty, with ten-thousand on his arm.
He wore designer clothes, and a big smile on his face
tellin' me salvation while they sang Amazin' Grace.
Askin' me for money, when he had all the signs of wealth.
I almost wrote a check out, yeah, then I asked myself

(chorus)

Would He wear a pinky ring, would He drive a fancy car?
Would His wife wear furs and diamonds, would His dressin' room have a star?
If He came back tomorrow, well there's somethin' I'd like to know
Could ya tell me, Would Jesus wear a Rolex on His television show.

Would Jesus be political if He came back to earth?
Have His second home in Palm Springs, yeah, a try to hide His worth?
Take money, from those poor folks, when He comes back again,
and admit He's talked to all them preachers who say they been a talkin' to Him?

(chorus)

Just ask ya' self, Would He wear a pinky ring,
Would He drive a fancy car?
Would His wife wear furs and diamonds, would His dressing room have a star?
If He came back tomorrow, well there's somethin' I'd like to know:
Could ya tell me, would Jesus wear a Rolex,
Would jesus wear a Rolex
Would Jesus wear a Rolex
On His television show-ooh-ooh?

G.

subk

Sep. 14, 2009, 11:46 PM

Time for some Ray Stevens:
Oh thank you! I'm going to have to go find The Streaker now...

OP, the Elder lost me before he even got to the animals don't go to heaven bit. I have a hard time understanding how an elder of a Christian faith has so missed the entire point of the New Testament: We do not go heaven by what we DO on this earth, but instead by the faith that is in our hearts and the grace of God. (Eph 2:8,9) And no one on this earth is any position to claim they know what is in your heart other than you!

As far as the animals, who says one has to "have a soul to go to heaven" in the first place. A serious study of angels would tell you that they are NOT some form of past humans because God tells us we we "will be lifted above the angels" as well as making distinction between "risen saints" and angels elsewhere in the Bible. So who's to say that Heaven is only for people? Angels don't fit the "people" category either, and it's pretty clear they are in residence!

HorsesinHaiti

Sep. 15, 2009, 07:53 AM

I often listen to Greg Boyd's sermons off the internet. This week addresses the OP's original scenario very directly, around minute 9:40. the whole sermon addresses several points raised here, for those interested. He isn't thrilled with the Elder's approach either.

http://www.whchurch.org/content/page_173.htm

sermon title is "Growing up into Kingdom Adulthood". Title is actually a reference to 1 Corinthians 13, 'the love chapter', and how it relates to a discussion Jesus had with the elders of his day.

MistyBlue

Sep. 15, 2009, 09:10 AM

God loves Ray Stevens. :yes: :D :yes:
How could anyone not? :winkgrin:

Tiffani B

Sep. 15, 2009, 10:09 AM

The church I grew up in was very adamant that only humans have souls, and therefore only humans go to heaven. I think they suffered from some kind of "little man" complex and wanted to find something that made humans superior to animals. Because after all, the way the church elders (my father included) behaved certainly was on the level of animals, if not below... :(

But we're speshul becuz we're peeple.

Whatever.

Aggie4Bar

Sep. 15, 2009, 12:26 PM

I'll add...

Matthew 10:29
"Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father."

Luke 12:6
"Are not five sparrows sold for two cents? Yet not one of them is forgotten before God."

Those passages go on to emphasize the greater value of human life, but the message is clear that God does not abandon any of his creatures.

Home Again Farm

Sep. 15, 2009, 02:07 PM

JSwan, that was simply wonderful. Many thanks for sharing.

To the OP, animals can truly be lifesavers in times of stress. Ignore the bitter old fellow and be true to yourself. :yes:

Just for you, OP.

THE CURATE THINKS YOU HAVE NO SOUL

The curate thinks you have no soul;
I know that he has none. But you,
Dear friend, whose solemn self-control,
In our foursquare familiar pew,
Was pattern to my youth -- whose bark
Called me in summer dawns to rove --
Have you gone down into the dark
Where none is welcome -- none may love?
I will not think those good brown eyes
Have spent their life of truth so soon;
But in some canine paradise
Your wraith, I know, rebukes the moon,
And quarters every plain and hill,
Seeking his master... As for me,
This prayer at least the gods fulfill;
That when I pass the flood and see
Old Charon by the Stygian coast
Take toll of all the shades who land,
Your little, faithful, barking ghost
May leap to lick my phantom hand.

-- St.John Lucas

Susan P

Sep. 15, 2009, 02:35 PM

DITTO!

Oh thank you! I'm going to have to go find The Streaker now...

OP, the Elder lost me before he even got to the animals don't go to heaven bit. I have a hard time understanding how an elder of a Christian faith has so missed the entire point of the New Testament: We do not go heaven by what we DO on this earth, but instead by the faith that is in our hearts and the grace of God. (Eph 2:8,9) And no one on this earth is any position to claim they know what is in your heart other than you!

As far as the animals, who says one has to "have a soul to go to heaven" in the first place. A serious study of angels would tell you that they are NOT some form of past humans because God tells us we we "will be lifted above the angels" as well as making distinction between "risen saints" and angels elsewhere in the Bible. So who's to say that Heaven is only for people? Angels don't fit the "people" category either, and it's pretty clear they are in residence!

Susan P

Sep. 15, 2009, 02:44 PM

So what is a soul and what is a spirit, they are 2 different things. Where in the Bible does it teach such things? Even if an animal has no eternal soul as we think of it, does that mean we won't have our friends with us? I doubt it very much that we won't have all the animals that have ever lived on earth just disappear. I may not have Scripture to back me up but neither does it disagree. It's HEAVEN for crying out loud, full of joy and happiness, with lot's of stuff to do. No need for horse slalls or even cleaning up messes, it will be perfect, so I'm not worried about it, I happen to believe our beloved pets will be with us. But I also believe God expects that we will trust Him to provide the most perfect eternity.

Bottom line I'm trusting God, and praying for all of my critters to be with me and for God to bless and protect all of my friends with 2 or 4 legs and family here and now and forever. Whatever happens is in God's hands and they are loving and kind hands. If He cares for the sparrow how much more does He care for us? If He's returning on a white horse, why isn't it concievable that there are now horses in Heaven? Why is this so hard to believe?

The church I grew up in was very adamant that only humans have souls, and therefore only humans go to heaven. I think they suffered from some kind of "little man" complex and wanted to find something that made humans superior to animals. Because after all, the way the church elders (my father included) behaved certainly was on the level of animals, if not below... :(

But we're speshul becuz we're peeple.

Whatever.