Registry Ethics Poll

[nobleponies]

Please give me your feedback

Should a Registry consider a stallions owners decission to resend a stallion report and Breeders Certificates after it has have been submitted and breeders cert. sent ... over a year...because they have decided the foals are not worthy of registry for one reason or another. What would you do if you couldnt register your foal for this reason??
What about the stallions owner..should future breeders be forwarned??
This registry will be Hidden untill all issues have been decided good or bad.

[EquusMagnificus]

I am sorry, could you clarify?

[babecakes]

I am sorry, could you clarify?

do you mean that the stallion owner is rescinding? that they don't want the foal registered?

[ahf]

I certainly heard of that happening before - the SO doesn't want papers issued for a foal. There was money owed the stallion owner by the mareowner.

[Dance_To_Oblivion]

If the stallion owner did not feel that the mare was up to par at the time she was bred then the SO should not have allowed the mare to be bred. A year later the mare owner has a foal on the ground and has spent considerable money on this foal. I feel it would be highly unethical of the stallion owner to take this stance. Were I am mare owner in that situation I would keep it to myself, resolve it legally and then I might consider making it public knowledge.

As far as the registry I would be equally displeased with them if all of the paperwork was properly done and appropriate fees had all been paid. If evertything was properly done for the breeding I think it would be very unfair to the MO for the SO and registry to after the fact decide to refuse registry. That does not make sense to me.

[Bent Hickory]

In other words: "I, stallion owner, will allow you, mare owner, to register your foal AFTER I deem that the foal is of sufficient quality."

No way. If the stallion owner wants to control quality, he/she should do so before the mare is bred not after the foal is on the ground.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I guess if there were fees due to the stallion owner, I would be fine with holding the papers, but if it is a matter of the SO not liking the quality of the foal, then that should be between the SO and their surgical veterinarian, IMO. ;)

If the foal owner has met all the criteria, the foal should be registrable.

[Mardi]

If the registry is going to honor the stallion owner's decision to rescind the paperwork on a foal (regardless of why) and thus not register the foal, then the registry needs to make sure it's in writing in their handbook that they reserve the right to do so.

[Tiki]

I really have no idea what the OP said and I think everyone is guessing at what s/he could mean.

[ahf]

Tiki, I'm betting there is a whole lot more to the story than meets the eye.

I've already stated I can think of one way this would happen. I can think of a couple more too. There is NO WAY I'd pass judgement on a registry or the stallion owner without knowing the entire story.

I will note that registry papers are the last line of defense (and pretty much the only) for a SO.

And..... it could be the SO is a total control freak jackass. But I'm not hopping on the registry/SO crucifixion bandwagon without knowing everything.

[Blue Moon]

Agree that it was confusingly worded and rather unclear.

But what it sounds like the OP meant, was that the SO filed their breeding report with their registry, listing all the mares that were bred, as most registries require. And then the registry issued "Breeders Certificates" which is what the SO gives the MO as proof that they paid their stud fee and they send in to register their foal. And then long after these events took place, the SO decides to tell the registry that the initial report was in error and some of the mares should be left off. And SO files a new breeding report with not all the names on there. So that the MOs whose mares were left off now cannot register their foals.

If that is what the OP meant, my opinion would be: 1. Any SO that would do such a thing is a lying, cheating, skunk and should be outed immediately so that no one will ever do business with them again. 2. Any registry that would allow a revised breeding report to be filed which *leaves off* mares that were previously reported (as opposed to, say, a corrected report *adding* a mare that was inadvertently forgotten) should be boycotted forevermore by every breeder everywhere, and should also be outed immediately.

I really hope that is not what happened. That's what it sounded like, but it's hard to imagine any registry going along with such a thing, honestly.

[ise@ssl]

I agree the OP is confusing. If the mare owner owes the SO money - I would defend blocking the Registry providing papers for the foal. As far as trying to stop papers because the foal wasn't up to par - no.

[Elfe]

I agree the OP is confusing. If the mare owner owes the SO money - I would defend blocking the Registry providing papers for the foal. As far as trying to stop papers because the foal wasn't up to par - no.

Don't registries send the stallion owner the breeding certificates for the foals ?
If a mare owner has not paid stud fees, etc. the stallion owner can simply not provide the certificate, I don't see why there would be any need to file a different report.

[Chall]

Off the top of my head I can think of three reasonable reasons:
1. Mare owner owe's money (or in someway does not honor a written contract regarding the breeding)

2. Stallion's sperm (A.I.) illegal split and unauthorized breeding done (mare was legit, but second mare on farm breed from split).

3. Foal shows genetic problem, SO will no longer breed and doesnt want any more breedings. Or SO feels foal should have been pts because of genetic problem with mare, but Mare Owner didn't do so or plans to use foal (with inheritable genetic problem) in future breeding program .

So, for me, it would depend on the reason for the rescinding.

Does this registry require DNA samples?

[nobleponies]

BLUE MOON HAS IT CORRECT
The stallion was stood at a stallion station and thats where the mares were BRED
Stallion owner is owed no money for any of these breeding contracts ...they were all payed in full (with cleared checks). All contracts were legal and followed and the registry isnt giving mare owners any reasoning for why SO is doing this. This was done to ALL mare owners of that year. All fees are paid etc. to the registry also.
I understand if stud fees were owed but there not and how can SO do it a year later?? If there was an issue then the SO should never of issued breeders cert. and sent in the report. its not fair to us mare owners

SO refuses to answer calls

There were only 3 mares bred(all different MO) to this stallion that year all in the general area of the stallion and None of us are able to get our papers

AND as far as the registry goes they have been so kind to of let us spend our money at their shows and aquire points on these babies with NO mention that it means nothing in the long run

[nobleponies]

Oh and NO the registry does not send the breeders cert. They are Downloaded off the registries web site by the SO then signed and sent out to The MO and from I can see on the registries web site it specifically tells SO NOT to send the BC untill ALL stud fees are paid so I would assume that when SO sign And sends they are stating all fees are paid
And NO DNA on foals is not done unless they are purebreds in which in this case 1 is and was DNA typed

I would also like to add that we all show together(MO) and all of these foals have been Either champion or reserve in their divisions at EVERY show so quality is something SO should be THRILLED with

[Fairview Horse Center]

Wow! :no: I just can't imagine this happening.

[Molly Malone]

Is it possible that the SO has found out something about the stallion, a genetic problem say, that means that the offspring should never be allowed to enter the gene pool? If it was a rare-ish breed, it would be possible that the registry agrees with the SO, but no one wants to make anything public?

[Fairview Horse Center]

Is it possible that the SO has found out something about the stallion, a genetic problem say, that means that the offspring should never be allowed to enter the gene pool? If it was a rare-ish breed, it would be possible that the registry agrees with the SO, but no one wants to make anything public?

IMO, if that would be the case, the MO's have a large investment, and have the right to know.

[JWB]

Is the stallion not available for breeding any more at all or was it just a single year that they rescinded all of the breeding contracts?

I would send a certified letter to the SO or whomever you paid the stud fee to requesting explanation in a predetermined time frame (14 days is good). If you don't get any answer, get an attorney. Do you still have your breeding contract? It sounds like they have not upheld their end of the contract and are in breech.

If you contract was with the breeding station and not the SO, then your correspondence should be with the breeding station. They will have legal recourse to go after the SO but you may not if the SO never entered a contract with you.

Get your paperwork together and get an attorney.

[Blue Moon]

PLEASE tell us what registry did this.

I believe that all breeders have the right to know when an organization is so blatantly flaunting its own rules and standards.

You have no worries about being accused of slander, libel, etc. since you are just making a simple statement of fact.

[Kyzteke]

I have not read all the replies but I will tell you this: a stallion service for a papered foal is something a MO purchases, and if the MO pays all the required fees, the SO CANNOT decide which babies to register and which to not.

They do not have that legal control. It could be that the registry takes the tact of "we do not get involved," and so really isn't condoning this.

I know the Arab Registry folk told me point blank that they do not get involved in "civil matters" when registering horses...my question was do they verify signatures on paperwork. They told me "no -- we trust our members." But basically what that means is that someone could fake a signature and if no one complained or "told" on them, the AHR would never question it.

But the stallion owner is LYING when he resubmits a year end breeding report and suddenly leaves horses off. And the registry is accepting that lie. Because LEGALLY the stallion owner has no rights at all by now.

But I have to ask -- aren't the foals already registered? Are you actually saying the registry is pulling papers from foals already registered?

Honestly, if parentage is confirmed and fees are paid I don't know of one registry that can do that. Well, the JC can if the breeding wasn't LC, but that's it.

Something doesn't smell right here....

[Tamara in TN]

Because LEGALLY the stallion owner has no rights at all by now.

But I have to ask -- aren't the foals already registered? Are you actually saying the registry is pulling papers from foals already registered?

Honestly, if parentage is confirmed and fees are paid I don't know of one registry that can do that. Well, the JC can if the breeding wasn't LC, but that's it.

Something doesn't smell right here....

as I understand it as a stallion owner in my registry, if I "mess up" a stallion report (whether accidentally or on purpose;)) they can and will remove papers from the resulting animals


I think it has been done at least a half dozen times over the years I have paid attention mostly however for white rule violations or "forbidden" crossings of B to C's or some such :lol::lol::lol:


as I understand it,this is not something done lightly and there are normally more than one BOD director involved

for our registry at least there is the maintaining the purity of the breed thru an accurate recording of the pedigrees and that can and does trump a whole lot of things...being a pedigree nerd somewhat, I understand and support this...

as to the assertion that they "took their money" at the shows...THAT annoys me as the show managers don't have some hidden line to the SO to say "hey let's screw <insert name> knowing full well that this will happen later"...

every show these animals went to will now have to go back and edit all the papers,maybe refund/remove,re-tabulate points and on and on and on so it's no damned peach basket for them either

regards

[Elfe]

I sure would like to know what registry did this, so I can stay as far away as possible !
Whatever the reason, the SO should have contacted the mare owners and at least given an explanation and offered some form of compensation. The same goes for the registry.
Sorry this happened, I would consider legal counsel.

[Tamara in TN]

I sure would like to know what registry did this, so I can stay as far away as possible !
Whatever the reason, the SO should have contacted the mare owners and at least given an explanation and offered some form of compensation. The same goes for the registry.
Sorry this happened, I would consider legal counsel.

there is some weirdness somewhere....what stallion owner does not want their animals offspring out winning somewhere ? is the horse really the sire ? how does this stallion station fit in?

it's really strange, no matter which registry would be involved...;)

best

[DownYonder]

It is obviously not a WB registry, according to these “clues” from the OP:

“And NO DNA on foals is not done unless they are purebreds in which in this case 1 is and was DNA typed.”

“AND as far as the registry goes they have been so kind to of let us spend our money at their shows”

So it is apparently a breed registry, such as Arabians, QH, Welsh, etc.

It would be interesting to know the rest of the story. It is weird that the SO doesn't think the foals are good enough quality to deserve registration papers, yet those very same foals are winning championships at various shows.

[JWB]

If you read the OPs OTHER posts, it becomes pretty obvious which registry she deals with.

Switch over to German Riding Ponies, Belgian Riding Ponies or what not and avoid the hassle!

[nobleponies]

I want to Thank everyone for their thoughts and comments!!!
We the MO are sending a letter to every member of this registries board along with our contracts and I guess wait to see .
And these foals have had their paperwork into the registry since last year and do to the fact that this registry does not have a clue papers have been lost ... pictures weren't clear enough OR they new something that we dont.
We do intend on getting a lawyer if it doesnt work in our favor.

[Tamara in TN]

do to the fact that this registry does not have a clue papers have been lost ...

pictures weren't clear enough

OR they new something that we dont.

.

well, which one is it ? lost papers are different than poor photos to obtain papers and at least in our registry the photos for the colts are on the MO and not the SO....

all of the above being different than the SO rescinding a breeding report of course...

[Tiki]

Sounds like Section A Welsh. Oops! Did I say that out loud?;)

[Fairview Horse Center]

Sounds like Section A Welsh. Oops! Did I say that out loud?;)

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Molly Malone]

I am not currently a member of the WPCSA. If this is indeed the Registry under consideration, I'm not sure I ever will be again unless there is a very clear official explanation of the situation.

Perhaps a member could refer the Registry to this thread?

[Tamara in TN]

I am not currently a member of the WPCSA. If this is indeed the Registry under consideration, I'm not sure I ever will be again unless there is a very clear official explanation of the situation.

Perhaps a member could refer the Registry to this thread?


We don't even know that a crime was committed...much less by the WPCSA

what do we know??

1.some random stallion managed to bag three mares at a stallion station somewhere

2.colts resulted

3.colts are now ineligible for papers from said registry

there are a dozen things between cashed checks by SO and the resulting babies not registerable in ANY registry's bylaws ....

so how about some, actual facts and naming the registry and not thinly veiled threats and innuendo and maybe someone could actually HELP the OP with the problem

[Tiki]

Don't yell at us Tamara, it's the OP who's keeping it all a big secret.:D

[Tamara in TN]

Don't yell at us Tamara, it's the OP who's keeping it all a big secret.:D

ohh it's just sooooo nail bitting.......arggghh!!

if the OP would just say "WPCSA" then some of us here could help her/him....

myself,I think it's the Connemara people,or maybe the GRP or maybe the Belgian Riding Pony or maybe the BRP or even the ASRP or the AARP or the NAACP or the AAA...:eek::eek:

somewhere somehow a crime has been committed!!!

[Vindicated]

Not that I have any first hand experience, but have heard from people that the connemara people are PsITA

[Mardi]

I'm wondering if something happened at the stallion station while the stallion and mares were there for breeding.

Assuming it was AI, perhaps the semen got mixed up with another stallion.

There's some reason the SO doesn't want his/her stallion on those papers.
If he's named as the sire, and it turns out he's not....

[Tiki]

Again, everyone is guessing, the OP is using very poor grammar so it's hard to even guess at what happened, the OP is not telling the whole story. COME CLEAN OP! Give us the real skinny.

maybe the BRP or even the ASRP or the AARP or the NAACP or the AAA...:eek::eek: or maybe the AARP or NASCAR or USN or NOAA or...... or........... or.............................:sadsmile::lol::win kgrin::D:);)

[Tamara in TN]

or maybe the AARP or NASCAR or USN or NOAA or...... or........... or.............................:sadsmile::lol::win kgrin::D:);)

I'm thinking the Dartmoors and Area 51...somehow, we'll know the whole truth..

where's Geraldo ??

[ahf]

I'm thinking the Dartmoors and Area 51...

Okay - that's a scream! :lol:

[nobleponies]

No I cant give out the registry untill all is said and done.
And NO answers are given to us mare owners by the registry or the SO. WE have absolutley no idea why . MIND you these are all yearlings now and the paper work was submitted by the SO in DEC of 07.
And all LIVE COVER at the stallion Station

[nobleponies]

Oh also , Stallion Station said that all the fees were paid to the registry and all of the needed paperwork was also turned in.(with proof)
They said to start a class action against the SO and regisrty????