Color Experts - Here's One For You

[Montanas_Girl]

This AQHA mare is owned by a student of my BO. She is registered as a sorrel/chestnut. She was born a very light cream color, similar to palomino foals, and has gradually darkened as she has aged. I think she's around 8 or 9 now. Her sire was chestnut - his pedigree is here: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/docs+feedlot. Her dam was a similar shade, but her mane was not silver/gray like this mare's is. The stallion produced at least one other foal that was the same color as this mare. That gelding was out of a normal chestnut mare.

This is the mare's body: http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c16/montanas_girl/MeMe1.jpg

A close-up of her mane:
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c16/montanas_girl/MeMe2.jpg

You can see that when her legs are clipped (she has a suspensory injury right now), her skin is actually silver, not orange like a normal chestnut:
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c16/montanas_girl/MeMe3.jpg

So what color is she? The only horses I've ever seen who looked like this were the two sired by this stallion.

[JB]

Well, her skin wouldn't be orange even if she was a "normal" chestnut ;) It's black just like all other non-pinto skin. I'd say the clip job didn't get quite surgical-close (or it's grown out just enough) and the silvery under-hair is what's showing.

So, that said, all bets are on her being a chestnut with flaxen, and it's sooty that's making her mane/tail look gray.

[Montanas_Girl]

Sorry, JB, I didn't literally mean "skin". :D She just doesn't look like every other chestnut I've ever clipped does. Her legs were clipped yesterday, so it hasn't grown out at all.

[cmdrcltr]

From an article I saved from Practical Horseman (January 2001), I have some ideas, although none sound exactly like the mare you've shown us.

The first thing that comes to mind is the "sooty" coloring. It says a "sooty" palomino can be difficult to distinguish from a chestnut.

The second thing that came to mind is the "Champagne" gene. A Gold champagne is described as "golden-yellow body and leges; red/gold or white mane and tail." This isn't quite like your mare, but close.

The third thing that came to mind is the "mealy effect" which causes yellowish areas on the lower belly, flanks, behind the elbows, inside the legs, on the muzzle, and over the eyes. While we often think of it on bays, "this effect can also apply to chestnuts in the form of multiple shades of red on the body."

She sure is an interesting color whatever she is.

[Maren]

I can't comment on the color question, but since I have another color question and didn't want to open yet another threat, I hope this little highjack is tolerable. Lovely horse, btw!!

I'm looking for the English word of Porzellanschecke, sample photo here:

http://foto.arcor-online.net/palb/alben/49/1197649/400_3464343864373030.jpg

Grey hair overlays the pinto spots below. Any idea?

[JB]

Maren, that looks like a pinto going gray :) All the pictures I found looking up that word also looked like pintos going gray.

[bluejewell]

She is a silver dapple. Do a google search and you will find out about the color. I have a mare with simular color and she is a silver dapple.

[Hampton Bay]

This mare cannot be a silver dapple, as both parents are chestnut. The silver gene only affects black pigment. There is no black pigment in a chestnut.

JB's answer is the only one that makes sense to me. I've seen champagne horses, and they don't look like that. They also have amber or blueish eyes (depending on the base color).

[bluejewell]

A lot of silver dapple horses look chesnut or sorrel but they are not. My mare we thought was a funny shade of chestnut but had her color tested and came back bay silver dapple. Most silver dapple are registered as chestnut or sorrel.

[JB]

I've seen champagne horses, and they don't look like that. They also have amber or blueish eyes (depending on the base color).
Yep, not a champagne here either.

A lot of silver dapple horses look chesnut or sorrel but they are not. My mare we thought was a funny shade of chestnut but had her color tested and came back bay silver dapple. Most silver dapple are registered as chestnut or sorrel.
You're right, some Silver Bays can look really, really chestnut.

But the point is, the parents of this horse are (apparently) both chestnut, meaning this horse is chestnut, and Silver *does not* show up on any red-based color. Therefore, not Silver :)

[Daydream Believer]

I agree with bluejewell...looks silver to me also. Do a simple DNA test...it will lay all doubts to rest. I do recall also that silver has been identified in the QH breed when so called chestnuts started producing non chestnuts when bred to chestnuts. Some bright egg figured out that something was amiss and they figured out that they really had silver bays.

I think the question is if both parents are really chestnuts or perhaps silvers misidentified as chestnuts?

[SilverSpringFarm]

Definitely chestnut + sooty. I don't really see silver at all and she does not come from any of the known silver QH lines.

Sire is obviously palomino based off of the allbreed photo. No pics of dam but I don't see anything that looks unusual in her pedigree. (Like my mare Angel's dam - registered as a buckskin out of two sorrel parents.... :))

[spotsinabox]

We had a mare that was orignially registered chestnut . . .I'll see if I can find a picture- or maybe this link will work. But she is what I always called a 'chocolate palomino' . . . anyway, when we got the first palomino colt out of our sorrel stallion, we had to change her registration papers before the APHA would register the foal.

http://www.mcfarlandfarms-kansas.com/mcfardb/broodmares/details.php?horse=Rox%20Ann%20Wes&who=mares

She had a filly that was also hard to tell . . . looked almost red-gold, but she shed off to be a pretty, dark palomino.

http://www.mcfarlandfarms-kansas.com/mcfardb/getofsire/details.php?horse=LA%20Confidential&who=getofsire

[twofatponies]

I can't comment on the color question, but since I have another color question and didn't want to open yet another threat, I hope this little highjack is tolerable. Lovely horse, btw!!

I'm looking for the English word of Porzellanschecke, sample photo here:

http://foto.arcor-online.net/palb/alben/49/1197649/400_3464343864373030.jpg

Grey hair overlays the pinto spots below. Any idea?

I think that's just called pinto going gray in english! :D Though I think I heard an Irish person call it "blue" or "blue and white" one time? Because they get to the point where they look white until they get wet, when you can see the different skin colors through the coat, and it looks blueish? That's a vague memory, I might be wrong.

[leslie645]

Grulla pinto

[JB]

Grulla is dun on black. I'm not seeing any of those as grulla :confused:

oops, by "any", I mean all the pictures I found when looking up that word :)

[Montanas_Girl]

Hmm.....

It sounds like "sooty" flaxen chestnut is the most likely case here. I guess silver dappple *could* be a possiblity. I know that her sire, Docs Feedlot, was definitely plain old chestnut, because I've seen him. I have no idea whether the dam was really chestnut or if she looked more like this mare. If we find any pictures of her, I'll let you know!

I can encourage the owners to do a DNA test, but since this mare isn't a broodmare, they probably won't be interested in spending any money on something like that. She is an interesting case, though, so I hope that they get curious enough to do that. We'll see.

Thanks for the input! I'll let them know what you guys said.

[Rubyfree]

I'm looking for the English word of Porzellanschecke, sample photo here:


Grey hair overlays the pinto spots below. Any idea?

That would translate as Porcelain Pinto, FTR.

[JB]

Well dang, "porcelain" doesn't help much in what it's trying to convey LOL

I still think it's gray on pinto :)

[Penthilisea]

Wild Bay. http://colormorgans.tripod.com/basecolors.htm
Scroll down to see Blythewood Beau Brummel (who I knew personally). Looks like your guys coloring exactly to me!
"It is theorized that there are three different types of agouti. "A" is the Agouti which causes "regular" bay; "A+" is the "wild type" Agouti, which results in a light bay horse with very little black on the legs, usually just around the fetlocks; and "At" is brown, or what is sometimes called "seal brown", a nearly black horse with reddish areas on the muzzle and flanks. A horse will have some combination of the three types, one of the three types plus one non-agouti gene (one non-agouti gene is written as "a"), or have no agouti at all ("aa")."

[sniplover]

Well, except that the OP's horse comes from two chestnut parents and thus can not be a black-based wild bay.

[SilverSpringFarm]

I don't think wild bay is likely, but I most certainly would not count it out entirely as a possibility. There are many wild bays that are misclassified as chestnuts. It is possible that one of her parents was misclassified too.

These horses are both confirmed black gene carriers.

http://colormorgans.tripod.com/bushcreektrillium.jpg

http://www.khartoonkhlassic.com/img6.jpg

[SilverSpringFarm]

Question for the OP: Are the mare's eyes lighter then normal? Maybe amber colored or teal-ish? They look like they might be from the confo photo.

I ask because she kind of reminds me of this wild bay buckskin and cream is definitely a possibility based on pedigree alone.

http://www.ylranch.com/sales/Buckshot/YL_Buckshot_2.jpg

Sure wish we had a photo of the mare's dam.

[Sakura]

I can't comment on the color question, but since I have another color question and didn't want to open yet another threat, I hope this little highjack is tolerable. Lovely horse, btw!!

I'm looking for the English word of Porzellanschecke, sample photo here:

http://foto.arcor-online.net/palb/alben/49/1197649/400_3464343864373030.jpg

Grey hair overlays the pinto spots below. Any idea?

I knew a polo pony some years ago that was a blue roan pinto... I kept thinking he would eventually grey out but he never did... didn't know there was a specific name for his color.

[JB]

I don't think wild bay is likely, but I most certainly would not count it out entirely as a possibility. There are many wild bays that are misclassified as chestnuts. It is possible that one of her parents was misclassified too.

These horses are both confirmed black gene carriers.

http://colormorgans.tripod.com/bushcreektrillium.jpg

http://www.khartoonkhlassic.com/img6.jpg

But they don't look like a red-based horse, at least not to me :) The first one has black right around the coronet. The 2nd one just looks too...something, can't put my finger on it, that makes me think not red-based.

[grayfox]

I think she is just a chestnut. I have a friend with an imported Selle Francias mare who is chestnut with a silvery tail exactly that color.

[FatCatFarm]

Nope. That is classic silver bay.

[darkmoonlady]

The mare is a red chestnut with three things going on, one is pangare which is easily distinguished by the lighter patches on her undersides. She is also flaxen AND sooty which is why she has both dark and light hairs in her mane and tail. She cannot be a silver bay because Chestnut+Chestnut=Chestnut.

[kookicat]

I think that's just called pinto going gray in english! :D Though I think I heard an Irish person call it "blue" or "blue and white" one time? Because they get to the point where they look white until they get wet, when you can see the different skin colors through the coat, and it looks blueish? That's a vague memory, I might be wrong.

'Blue and white' is a term used in England to describe grey pinto. :) (Lemon and white is usually palomino pinto.)

[whbar158]

To me she would not be "classic silver bay" because he legs are so light, the few silver bays I have seen and most of the pictures I have seen, the legs are all way darker than the body. That is not the case here. They do look chestnut with darker chestnut legs, not lighter chestnut legs. And while it is said that both parents are chestnut, we all know that one of them could just *look* chestnut. To me she looks more like the fjord color than silver bay. It would be way easier if we had pictures of both the parents.

[littleum]

Nope. That is classic silver bay.

Yep. She's a silver.

I wonder if she's got some pangre or sooty going on as well, but she is clearly a silver. Test her for Z. :)

[coloredcowhorse]

So what color is she? The only horses I've ever seen who looked like this were the two sired by this stallion.[/QUOTE]


Had one years ago sired by my paly stallion and out of a chestnut mare with flaxen and pangere. Mane had a lot of silvery/sooty tones to it while body had chestnut with pangere effect. Chestnut with pangere, flaxen and sooty modifiers.

Not a silver dapple....three generations of chestnut/paly behind her and only black based color was a roan....none of the lines have any indication of silver.

Not champagne...no hints of champagne in her coloring (chestnut plus champagne would give bright paly but her sire doesn't come from the QH lines that have champagne....very, very scarce in QH's).

[littleum]

Not a silver dapple....three generations of chestnut/paly behind her and only black based color was a roan....none of the lines have any indication of silver.


Silver dapple is only clearly expressed on black-based, where black is diluted to the silvery shade.

Red-based will hide it but can show what the mare shows: a faint silvering on the legs and mane. So saying she's got three generations of chestnut behind her makes me go "Your point being what?"

There's a $25 (I think) test for silver. Satisfy your curiosity. ;)

The silver gene is also linked to an eye defect, so there's some justification for testing it beyond your pure curiosity.

[Gayle in Oregon]

Silver dapple. It is $40 for a DNA test at Davis Ca to confirm.. Yes a lot of silvers are miss-identifiied as chestnut. I have a black silver dapple pony with the white tail and part white mane but the German Riding Pony inspectors called her liver chestnut. (this black color fades in any sunlight to dark liver) Her DNA color test is in process so I will 'prove' to them. See her at http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1242510615

She was just named NASPR Western USA & Canada 2010 First Place Futurity foal of 2010. Her mother is palomino and that is where the silver gene has been hiding for probably 4 or more generations. I love it!.

[rideagoldenpony]

Your mare looks VERY similar in coloration to a mare I have. My girl is an imported Section B Welsh mare. She has a "silvery" mane and tail, and gets the strangest dark "dapples" (for lack of a better word) on her legs in the summer. The most oddly colored pony I've ever had.

Unfortunately I don't have any great pictures showing her legs. I will have to work on that this summer.

I was going to attach photos, but my computer is not cooperating. You can see her here: http://www.welshponies.com/sucura.htm

[Daydream Believer]

These folks are $25 for a sample in the US to test for color genes. Best value I've found.

http://www.horsetesting.com/equine.asp

[jilltx]

We have an IDENTICAL horse at our barn (QH) who is a silver dapple bay. Everyone thinks he's a chestnut. My bet is on silver dapple with misidentified parents. It happens ALL THE TIME.

Most people are not interested in the fine genetics that create different colors. They describe what they see or think they see, hence palominos described as chestnut, flea bitten greys described as appaloosa, dun/buckskin,... You get the idea.

I think some of you are forgetting that just because it says "chestnut" on the registration papers, unless it's been DNA tested, if it's siring other colors it probably ISN'T a chestnut, but one that looks like a chestnut to most people.

[DeeThbd]

I can't comment on the color question, but since I have another color question and didn't want to open yet another threat, I hope this little highjack is tolerable. Lovely horse, btw!!

I'm looking for the English word of Porzellanschecke, sample photo here:

http://foto.arcor-online.net/palb/alben/49/1197649/400_3464343864373030.jpg

Grey hair overlays the pinto spots below. Any idea?

Maren, if you ever get any good info, please PM me! My first pony as a child looked very much like this - we had her until she passed in her early 30s, and her coat never changed. She also had a colt by a black and white pinto, and he too had the same coat as his dam, with some black points. The dam also had fairly light coloured eyes - we used to jokingly refer to her as green-eyed jealousy!
Dee:D

[Montanas_Girl]

Wow, someone brought this thread back from the dead!

We never did make a "for sure" determination on the mare in question. The owners were not interested in DNA testing, and we never found a picture of her dam. Her sire, though, was solid cherry-red chestnut from nose to tail, so while it is possible he was carrying some funky gene, he sure did not look anything but chestnut. I used to have a picture of him, but it was on my old hard drive that crashed two years ago.

Thanks for reviving the interest. I wish I had answers to give!

[coloredcowhorse]

The thing with this mare is that the silver gene is extremely rare (even more rare than champagne) in the QH breed....so far I think there is ONE known line and yes, it was discovered because a stallion registered as chestnut was bred to a chestnut/sorrel mare and sired a bay foal. DNA testing for parentage verification proved he was the sire but the colors said "no way". He was found to be a silver (on black base). The colors on the horses behind this mare on her pedigree are well known....those chestnuts are indeed chestnut and have had NO silvers come from them. The chances that she is silver are virtually nil. I'd go with chestnut, pangere, flaxen and sooty. Had one years ago sired by a paly and out of a bright flaxen chestnut mare....born the color of a strawberry milkshake...very weird. Mane/tail began growing in silvery colored (and paly was 50% chance) so I thought OK...maybe a darkish paly. Began shedding baby coat and looked almost liver....cool!! a chocolate paly! was my thinking. NOT. She finally shed out to an odd medium livery chestnut with two big (hand sized) dark liver patches, one on the top of each hip, and a mane/tail that had silvery white and almost black chestnut hairs mixed...pretty filly with a couple hind stocking and a bit arrow type blaze and that odd funky mane and tail. She was a witch on legs from birth (barely got born, cleared her nose, raised her head and said, clearly, "get the He!! out of my space!" and never changed....sold her as long yearling to some folks that had over 40 years training experience and wanted her for a barrel horse (mother's lines came from Arizona and New Mexico brush track racing lines) and were willing to try to focus her aggression on competition. Don't know how she turned out.