Young Stallions

[Cloverbarley]

So I'm looking to breed some of my mares next year. Do I go with the "sure bet" type of stallion; the ones who have the name, who have been well shown and well promoted ... or do I take a bit of a gamble and go for an unproven stallion at the beginning of his show career?

I know it's a question only I can answer but you know sometimes there can be merits in throwing caution to the wind. I have 3 young stallions on my list and 3 well known stallions. Cost-wise, apart from 2 stallions, there really isn't much difference in price for the others. I keep going backwards and forwards constantly and I now really want to make a firm decision either way and then I will be happy in the knowledge that it's all bought and paid for and all I have to do is relax and wait till the spring.

I'm just wondering, whether the gamble is worth it. Who has gone down the "unproven and not well known" stallion route? Are you pleased with your choice? What would you do differently, if anything, if you were to do it again? Did you ever wish you had gone with the sure-bet rather than the unknown?

Hunter and showjumping stallions are what I am looking at by the way. Any young ones that you are really interested in seeing what they throw? Any you have been watching with a view to possibly breeding to at some point in the future?

Thank you for reading. :)

[sixpoundfarm]

I would be more inclined to use an unproven stallion on a proven mare, than unknown to unknown.

[camohn]

Are you breeding to sell or breeding to keep?
If you are breeding to sell: go with a known horse. If you are breeding to keep and also know what the mare produced in the past then a young stallion is not a bad choice if you are willing to be a bit of a gambler. Breeding is ALWAYS a gamble on which body parts of the parents (or even throwbacks to grandparents) you will get.....but more so with the young and unproven.
The one "unknown" (other than my own colt) that I bred to I got a really nice colt that remained intact/last I knew was showing well and still a stallion. The test foals from my own TB are now just coming of riding age. That is bittersweet since the reports I have gotten back on his earliest foals is that they are super easy to start and the one 4 YO APHA is winning stuff English and Western all over the place in both NHRA (hunbters with his owner) and 4H shows(barrels and poles with a kid rider) and his 5 YO WB filly is a suoer easy and talented hunter/jumper. It's just hard that the foals are ending up "all I wanted them to be" when their sire died at only 5 in a freak farm accident. So...I am at least happy that a dozen mares WERE bred to him when he was young and unproven....his line will be continued after all.

[avadog]

There are a number of young hot stallions in the hunter stallion area that I would breed to in a minute. Do you mean unknown as in nobody knows who they are or unknown meaning young? I think getting ahead of the curve is a great idea for sales, you can sometimes get a better deal and people want to buy the latest and greatest.

[clint]

I would be more inclined to use an unproven stallion on a proven mare, than unknown to unknown.

I agree with this. I wouldn't use an unproven stallion on a maiden for several reasons, among them there are two unknowns in how each will impact the foal, and another, the size is an unknown. A friend of mine bred a maiden mare to a moderate sized first year stallion, who, as it turns out, throws very large foals. The mare foaled a ginormous foal, who has recovered from most of his foaling issues except for some angular deformity, and that is expected to take a year to resolve.

[Cervalo]

If you are looking for a young stallion with amazing jumping ability and one that absolutely LOVES to jump, you shoule look at Flint GSF by Weltstern. He's standing at Greenstone Farm in Culpeper VA. I saw his first stallion inspection at age 2 and it was jaw dropping! He was jumping of his on valition and the inspector could barely get out of the way fast enough after raising the jumps to see how high he would go. No kidding, this young stallion had no handler and after jumping through, he turned around and started to head back over the jumps again all on his own. He was of given an unlimited breeding license while he worked toward his permanent license.

Everyone was speechless watching him!

[Mozart]

I guess it depends on your tolerance for risk. Sure, the standard advice is always breed to a proven stallion....but some smart breeders were the first to breed to, say, Quaterback. I guess time will tell if they chose wisely or not.

Breeding is a gamble any way you cut it and this would increase the gamble but could also potentially increase the pay off if you have babies on the ground by The Next Great Stallion.

One thing I would really hesitate to do...new stallion and new stallion owner. If a well established breeder with experience and a good reputation stands a young stallion I would seriously consider it. I would not want to risk a contract with someone who may have relaxed standards or not collect when it needs to be collected or ship sub par semen or not know how to get the semen to where it needs to go on time..etc.

[camohn]

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One thing I would really hesitate to do...new stallion and new stallion owner. If a well established breeder with experience and a good reputation stands a young stallion I would seriously consider it. I would not want to risk a contract with someone who may have relaxed standards or not collect when it needs to be collected or ship sub par semen or not know how to get the semen to where it needs to go on time..etc.
Having been there (the new SO with the young stallion as that is what I could afford to buy!) I would qualify that with this: if the SO was a previous MO/breeder ( I was breeding mares prior to being an SO) then the SO *is* probably going to know what they are looking for. Now a new SO because it is a nifty investment opportunity/and NOT a mare owner too is a different story. Again...depends. If it is a new SO standing him at a reputable stallion station....a different story again. A lot of variables to consider!!

[ahf]

I have to agree with camohn. I was a mareowner long before I became a reluctant stallion owner. My BIGGEST CONCERN was standing the stallion at a station I knew would be able to collect on-site,that was no stranger to the process, that would save the MO from having to pay exhorbitant "trailer to the collection vet fees", and would be responsive to the MO's needs for semen.

You really do have to consider the individual situation for the freshman stallion.

FWIW, I try to see every stallion I use in person. I did that 7 years ago with one recent import and was blown away by him. Proven or not - that young stud set me on fire. And from that mating I got a Class 1 approved stallion out of his first foal crop of three foals.

That said - I do believe using the "no-name" stallion affects marketability until they are under tack. But since I'm trying to breed the best RIDING HORSE I can, I don't care.

[karin@dutchbreeders@aol.com]

Hello Everyone!
To the best of my knowledge, we were the first breeders in the US to use Balou du Rouet, one of Schockemohles young jumper stallions. That was one of the best decisions that I have ever made! The result was Athena Ster(KWPN), and we have had 6 more Balous since!We did use our "best" mare, now Elite Preferent.... We also used UB40 in his first season in the US. We love the resulting filly Covergirl, and will definitely be using ISFs UB" again!
Feel free to contact me wuth any further questions!
Karin Jimenez
www.sportingchancefarm.com
.PS
I second the advice to use no more than one unproven parent, and do your homeworkon what kind of mare the stallion might cross best with, conformatiobal faults,etc.

[stoicfish]

How would you be affected if the young stallions ended up "not working out" for you.
There was another poster on here that was a bit upset because the stallion she had bred too was sold and gelded. Or what if the stallion ends up not throwing his talent. Or he is never shown. I would make the decision based on if you are OK with these things not working out. With a proven stallion, you have the name.
I went with the unproven version and so far am really happy. But I bred for myself. I do notice people interested in him because he is from a "new" stallion. But I am not sure that interest would translate into a sale?

[clint]

How would you be affected if the young stallions ended up "not working out" for you.
There was another poster on here that was a bit upset because the stallion she had bred too was sold and gelded. Or what if the stallion ends up not throwing his talent. Or he is never shown. I would make the decision based on if you are OK with these things not working out. With a proven stallion, you have the name.
I went with the unproven version and so far am really happy. But I bred for myself. I do notice people interested in him because he is from a "new" stallion. But I am not sure that interest would translate into a sale?

I have bred to two young stallions who were subsequently sold and gelded. It doesn't negate the two nice offspring I got from the breedings, one of whom sold for a very nice price and has started a successful career. The other I still have, also very nice, and she will be started next year. The amateur owner who bought the gelding I bred wasn't phased by the fact that daddy was no longer breeding; he was interested in the horse in front of him.

When I breed to a young stallion I realize that things change, and things could be different in a year or more down the road. Both of the stallions I bred to had successfully completed their 100 d.t. and were continuing performance careers. If the stallion has successfully completed the 100 d.t., continuing a performance career or not isn't a deal breaker for me. However, I now draw the line at breeding to stallions who are licensed but not approved.

As far as being miffed that the stallion didn't throw his talent, that isn't restricted to young stallions. That is part of the luck of breeding. That said, I don't breed unproven mares to new stallions.

[Cloverbarley]

Thank you for all your replies. :)

The mares are not maidens. The offspring will be offered for sale at some point. I admit I do have a bit of a thing for not following the masses, so to speak. If the young stallion was gelded, it wouldn't be an issue for me; I had my own stallion gelded and he is still the same lovely horse he always was and I won't part with him because he is very special to me.

If the young stallions I chose for my mares disappeared off the show circuit, hmm maybe wouldn't be so good, but then again if the offspring take after the mothers then I don't think it would be the end of the world. All the stallions are owned by very established breeders; that's one risk I would not be prepared to take, going with a new stallion and new stallion owner.

Ah decisions, decisions.

[JB]

There are a number of young hot stallions in the hunter stallion area that I would breed to in a minute.

Would you elaborate? :)

[Lauren Efford]

CAMOHN, YOU HAVE A PM! please contact me!

[avadog]

Would you elaborate? :)

I love Redwine, Ironrule, Aloha, and Black Tie.

[Cloverbarley]

Thank you everyone :). I made my final decisions and payments are on their way :). Now I can sit back and wait for spring.

[avadog]

Good luck with your choices.

[Cloverbarley]

Thanks Avadog. I went for the young ones in the end and I'm hoping they will be a lovely match :).

[camohn]

CAMOHN, YOU HAVE A PM! please contact me!

got it......