who should I breed my hunter mare to

[bluedapple]

I have a 16 hand bay hunter mare with 2 socks. Shes a Registered thoroughbred

Positive attributes - - Fantastic mover, big canter step, good form over fences (but not very scopey), beautiful mare, picture perfect conformation

negatives - hotter temperment, small (16 hands), not scopey over the jumps (hits alot of them)


** Im aiming for a big bay quiet baby

[sniplover]

It would be useful for us to see a picture (preferably a few) of her conformation or at least an honest and extensive review about what conformation issues she has and you would like to correct. Also, if you desire to register the baby with a warmblood registry we can use that to limit the choices.

With regards to your desire for bay coloration - has this mare produced any foals before, and if so, what color are they and their sires?

Your mare carries at least one copy of 'agouti' (possibly 2 but impossible to tell at this point) which makes a black -based coat bay. Base coat colors are determined by the same gene, the dominant form of which is black (E) and the recessive form is (e). Black pigmentation is dominant over chestnut - so she could possibly carry 2 copies of black (EE) or she could carry one black, one chestnut (Ee) and therefore possibly pass on chestnut coloration when combined with a stallion who carries at least one copy of chestnut (he could look black, bay, chestnut, grey, etc). Fortunately it's easier to figure out if a stallion carries chestnut because we have a large population of resultant foal colors to analyze :)

If that's confusing, give this a read over; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equine_coat_color_genetics

It's usually easiest to buy a foal on the ground that matches what you want if color's really important to you - you never know quite what you'll get when breeding!

[foxhavenfarm]

How about Artrageous? He has the hunter movement and great scope. He's also pretty quiet and his babies so far are all quite sensible. Plus...he's sired all bays. :)

[monami]

Romantic Star may be a good choice.. great temperament, lots of jump and a big boy.

[Signature]

Also Apiro! Like with Romantic, good chance for bay, size, temperament and scope. He does seem to add a lot of bone and in fact crosses best with a lighter mare. Ours out of our TK/TB mare is a lovely bone weight.

[bluedapple]

Ill try to post a pic. She really does have perfect conformation, I wouldn't change a thing except to get a heavier boned baby.

She is a blood bay and her sire is the same color with no white. Her dam is a chestnut with chrome

[bluedapple]

Whats the main difference between how Apiro and Popeye K throw foals?
Thanks!

[sixpoundfarm]

If her dam is Chestnut, then she's probably not homozygous, so you could get a chestnut from her.
I think both Apiro and Romantic have had chestnut foals, so they aren't homozygous either.

I'd also suggest Apiro for a TB mare needing some size and bone. Mine has some to spare. :)

[diva4ever]

Ironman crosses great with TB's! His babies are very amateur friendly...very sweet and friendly. They are very conformationally correct and definetly have their daddy's love of jump (and his great scope). He will add height, so if you want a big baby, you'll get one.

[avadog]

Ironman crosses great with TB's! His babies are very amateur friendly...very sweet and friendly. They are very conformationally correct and definetly have their daddy's love of jump (and his great scope). He will add height, so if you want a big baby, you'll get one.

She wants a bay. I like Popeye K and Romantic Star.

[Dressage-ryder]

I third/fourth Romantic Star! I am really excited about our expected 2010 RS foal out of a Hunter/Jumper mare.

[spacely]

I have loved the Redwine babies I've seen. Very goos temperaments along with everything else. Same with the Escapades and Popeye K's. However none of those boys will guarantee a bay, so if you absolutely must have a bay, then you need to go with a stallion that is homozygous (ex Rosenthal).

[savvy9]

Westporte - He adds size, movement, jump and awesome temperment - most of his kids are bay too..... www.countrylanewarmbloods.com

[babecakes]

She wants a bay....

Seriously, some people ignore points and over pitch stallions here.

[showjumpers66]

You won't be guaranteed a bay from Apiro. If you breed a bay mare to him that carriers the chestnut gene, you will have a 25% chance of a chestnut foal. I am not a chestnut fan either, but we LOVE our two chestnut foals from Apiro.

Aviator - http://www.silvercreeksporthorses.com/images/AviatorSM.jpg

After Burn - http://www.silvercreeksporthorses.com/images/JetIHFYearling.jpg

I'll let someone else answer in regards to Popeye K, but I can tell you what we have seen so far with the Apiro babies this year. He is absolutely stamping his type. You know that they are Apiro foals. He is improving the hind end and neck set consistently as well as stamping his head and adding freedom through the shoulder and movement in general. He is putting versatile athletes on the ground. They have the prettiness and flatter movement for the hunters yet big, powerful gaits with good "sit" and swing for dressage. All that I have seen have natural, clean lead changes. It is too early to tell if they will jump, but I don't see why they wouldn't. The minds on the foals have been really good, too. We will have to wait and see how they do undersaddle, but the ones that we saw in Germany last year were all really easy.

Aspire - http://www.silvercreeksporthorses.com/Video/AspireRPSI.wmv

Today, I am working on adding inspection photos for mare owners, so check back later, but they will be posted here. http://www.silvercreeksporthorses.com/apiroprogeny.html

Whats the main difference between how Apiro and Popeye K throw foals?
Thanks!

[showjumpers66]

Sorry, babecakes! :(

Seriously, some people ignore points and over pitch stallions here. There is a lot of self-promoting that turns me off.

[diva4ever]

She wants a bay.

Ironman does have bays. And chestnuts, and black, and a black rabicano daughter, and greys. He throws beautiful children. Period.

[bluedapple]

I dont love chestnuts, but your babies are gorgeous. Esp the second one, he looks liver chestnut??

[spacely]

Sorry, babecakes! :(

I don't think that was driected at you Barb. I think it was meant for Diva4ever who only ever pitches Ironman when someone asks for stallion suggestions.

Diva, while Nancy's boys are lovely, no stallion is right for every mare.;)

[ASBJumper]

You want a drop-dead gorgeous, QUIET, typey Hunter foal that is GUARANTEED to be bay or black and *virtually* guaranteed to be blingy?

Breed to Balta'Czar. He is ridiculously prepotent for throwing all the things mentioned above. Just have a look at his progeny page and the sales pages on his website:

http://www.jumpstartfarm.com/Default.asp?Page=111

Not sure he will necessarily add bone, though - when bred to TB mares his foals are still fairly typey and elegant.

And his oldest offspring are out doing well in the Hunter ring. They are often started and shown by ammies and many mare owners have bred to him more than once. :)

[diva4ever]

I don't think that was driected at you Barb. I think it was meant for Diva4ever who only ever pitches Ironman when someone asks for stallion suggestions.

Diva, while Nancy's boys are lovely, no stallion is right for every mare.;)

I suggest Ironman (or Ironrule or Titulus) when I think the mare would make a good match. And, for the record, there are some threads that I have not posted to because I didn't think it would be a good match. I have yet to see ugly Ironman offspring. I know these stallions personally so I know, and have seen firsthand examples, of their offspring and what they produce when matched with certain mares. I know firsthand of their temperments and quirks. I have seen other offspring by other stallions and they aren't as nice, nor as trainable as the Ironman's are. I don't suggest stallions that I've only seen pictures of, or pictures of their offspring. Especially when you want great temperment, one person's sweet can be another's sour.

Bluedapple, I do think Ironman would be a great match for your mare. Miz Yenko is a bay TB mare, who happens to be Ironrule's (and Ironstar's and Jasmin 55's) mother. She also had a baby, Skyler, by Mr. Itt (see crossroadsfarmonline.com - I think there is a pic of him on there). Although he is definetly more of a jumper type (and out of a true jumper stallion), she meshed perfectly with Ironman for babies that would be great in the hunter or jumper ring. Ironstar, as far as I've heard, has a fabulous start as a hunter.

As a breeder friend says, there is a stallion for every mare, and it's just a matter of finding that perfect one. Good luck in finding yours. And I apologize for any catiness that is coming to your thread.

[FrenchFrytheEqHorse]

I suggest Ironman (or Ironrule or Titulus) when I think the mare would make a good match. And, for the record, there are some threads that I have not posted to because I didn't think it would be a good match. I have yet to see ugly Ironman offspring. I know these stallions personally so I know, and have seen firsthand examples, of their offspring and what they produce when matched with certain mares. I know firsthand of their temperments and quirks. I have seen other offspring by other stallions and they aren't as nice, nor as trainable as the Ironman's are. I don't suggest stallions that I've only seen pictures of, or pictures of their offspring. Especially when you want great temperment, one person's sweet can be another's sour.

Bluedapple, I do think Ironman would be a great match for your mare. Miz Yenko is a bay TB mare, who happens to be Ironrule's (and Ironstar's and Jasmin 55's) mother. She also had a baby, Skyler, by Mr. Itt (see crossroadsfarmonline.com - I think there is a pic of him on there). Although he is definetly more of a jumper type (and out of a true jumper stallion), she meshed perfectly with Ironman for babies that would be great in the hunter or jumper ring. Ironstar, as far as I've heard, has a fabulous start as a hunter.

As a breeder friend says, there is a stallion for every mare, and it's just a matter of finding that perfect one. Good luck in finding yours. And I apologize for any catiness that is coming to your thread.
It's a moot point, though. The OP wants a bay. If she breeds to Ironman, she has a 50% chance of getting a grey horse. Regardless of how many non-grey babies he has on the ground.

[JWB]

Have you seen Magic Darco? He's a big bay hunter. He's gelded these days but available (and actively promoted) through frozen semen. His babies that I've seen have been really fancy. Pretty much all of the Darco sons can jump but he's got the REALLY nice movement too.

http://www.belgianwarmblood.com/magicdarco.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3nZJCW_2VE

[sfstable]

Take a look at the newly approved BWP, stallion, Richard. He is an imported KWPN stallion by Kroongraaf out of a Le Mexico mare. He was also approved for the new BWP H-Label (Hunter Label).www.theequineathlete.net

He is 17 hands, black with lots of chrome, shown in the hunters and through Grand Prix show jumping. He has a super temperment, very laid back.

So far to date, he has produced only bay fillies. He crosses very well with TB mares -- his foals all have very nice personalities.

I am breeding my Alla'Czar mare and my SF jumper mare (via ET) to him next year.

[airbourne1]

How about Cabardino? I have a yearling by him that is the quietest baby I have ever encountered.

However, he is only 16.1, which may make a difference if you want more height......

[VirginiaBred]

I suggest Jones Hall. See the thread on this page all about him! :)

[Samotis]

I would really like to see pictures of the mare. I have a TB mare that sounds similiar. She has great conformation and is a beautiful mover. She is 15.3 and very fine boned. She lacked elasticity and while she had scope, she was extremly hard to sit on over the jumps.

I bred to Roc USA and got a very nice TB'y colt. He looks a lot like mom, but is going to be much bigger (at least a hand bigger). He also has a lot more elasticity which is what I wanted. I will post pictures of mother and baby so you can see if she is a type like your mare.

I also really like a lot of the Paparazzo's I have seen. A friend has a few Paparazzo's out of TB mares and they are all really good movers and super quiet. He himself is beautiful and a really good jumper. He would be someone to look at. I think he is a little smaller, which if you don't want a big baby might be a good thing!

Hope the pictures help. It can at least give you an idea of what Roc USA produces. He is a bay, so you have a good chance of a bay, but he still has chestnuts. He also has many horses doing both hunters and jumpers.

There are a lot of really nice hunter stallions out there. It really does depend on your mare.

Post a picture!

[Royal Monaco]

How about Cabardino? I have a yearling by him that is the quietest baby I have ever encountered.

However, he is only 16.1, which may make a difference if you want more height......

I was going to suggest Cabardino too, but someone told me he had been sold and no longer breeding... Anybody knows more about this ?

[TheBandit]

I have seen (and had one myself), some pretty nice level headed hunter prospects by Ikoon. I haven't seen any chestnuts by him.

[About Time]

I second Balta Czar. Have a two year old filly who has won a lot on the line and has superb conformation. I agree he does not add bone to mare who is light boned though. He throws an awesome neck and rear end and great talent over fences.

[hossluva]

I have a 16 hand bay hunter mare with 2 socks. Shes a Registered thoroughbred

Positive attributes - - Fantastic mover, big canter step, good form over fences (but not very scopey), beautiful mare, picture perfect conformation

negatives - hotter temperment, small (16 hands), not scopey over the jumps (hits alot of them)


** Im aiming for a big bay quiet baby

Why not just go find one already on the ground. Then you wouldn't have to wait 5 years (assuming you bred right now) to do any real riding, you would be able to take your time and get exactly what you're looking for and not deal with the expense and risk of foaling, not knowing what you'll end up with as there are no guarantees.

Of course, you get the added bonus of not adding to an already burgeoning horse population, just sayin'....

[Centuree]

I was going to suggest Cabardino too, but someone told me he had been sold and no longer breeding... Anybody knows more about this ?

No, Cabardino as far as I know has not been sold as they are still advertising him on their website: http://www.charlotfarm.com/2008%20Cabardino.htm

I am pretty sure he still widely available from Charlot Farms.

[avadog]

Who did you pick?

[bluedapple]

Im not sure who to pick, Im torn. there are so many amazing hunter stallions in the US now. We are so lucky!!

[eventergirl97]

Oh! Um if you were looking for a good jumping stallion and you had the money to spend, I would go with Capone. He has won multimillions in winnings, but he is way to expensive for me. If you want to get heavier, I would go with the Irish draught breed(and you'll get a nice dead head too), but don't go with a full go with a half. My personal favorites are Tinkatoo and Formula One. But if I was going to breed my mare again I would definitely breed her with Baron van Gogh with rainbow equus. We breed with Pablo last year and got a gorgeous, stocky little bay colt(1/4 irish, 1/4 tb, and 1/4 westphalen).

[Kaleigh007]

Wow..I just watched the vids of "Richard". He is pretty,looks to be scopey and does both the hunters and jumpers just like Golan did. His crosses with the TB. mares look to be typey also. Only drawback I see is that he has sired only fillies:)!

[avadog]

Oh! Um if you were looking for a good jumping stallion and you had the money to spend, I would go with Capone. He has won multimillions in winnings, but he is way to expensive for me. If you want to get heavier, I would go with the Irish draught breed(and you'll get a nice dead head too), but don't go with a full go with a half. My personal favorites are Tinkatoo and Formula One. But if I was going to breed my mare again I would definitely breed her with Baron van Gogh with rainbow equus. We breed with Pablo last year and got a gorgeous, stocky little bay colt(1/4 irish, 1/4 tb, and 1/4 westphalen).

I don't think of Baron Van Gogh or Capone or Formula One or an Irish draught as a bay hunter. Did I miss something.

[serenityfarm]

I have had good luck with Balta Czar. Our stallion, Equinox, is also showing an ability for the hunters though he is younger then Balta Czar. It may be helpful to look on the USEF standings and you can see the hunter, jumper or dressage breeding sires lists. Even if you do not breed to one of those stallions directly it atleast gives you ideas of what crosses/progeny/sires are performing out there.

[About Time]

I second the vote for Balta Czar. He throws very very hunter type. Most of the ones I know are bay with a lot of chrome.

[Dirty Little Secret]

Another vote for Balta Czar. Will certainly quiet the temperament but when bred to TB mares he doesn't always throw big bone or size. But nice babies no matter what!

[rodawn]

For your mare, Landkoenig would be my choice. He's a gorgeous horse who was 100-day tested and he crosses very well with Thoroughbreds. His temperament is phenomenal as he was ridden by a 14-year-old girl and still won awards. I've personally seen a number of his babies (he does throw a lot of bays too), and they are all friendly, in-your-pocket kind of horses, super temperament, good conformation, very good jumping ability as well as dressage ability, and very, very easy to handle and train.
He's located in California. http://www.rainbowequus.com/Lankoenig.htm

These people also own Escudo II, who is not homozygous black, so you would have a very good chance at siring at dark bay. Escudo II also has an exceptional temperament and personality and jumping ability. He used to be standing at Celle State Stud in Germany and was used for the At Liberty Stallion Show where he was shown at liberty - not even a halter on - by his handler.

If you open your perspectives up to frozen, I can think of several brilliant options who cross nicely with thoroughbred hunter-type mares:
Balou du Rouet
Chacco Blue
Conthargos
Asti's Amsterdam
Escudo I
And interestingly, I think Rabino could also be a very good choice. They call him brown, but he is so dark it could be argued that he is a black-bay. He has an excellent breeding index for jumping, won the jumping portion of his stallion test, and was fifth overall. He stands at Celle State.

On a more personal note to the OP - are you absolutely stuck on having a bay? You're missing out some of the most incredible gene pools for jumpers.... Are you more interested in a lovely hunter-jumper with a fantastic temperament and scope, or on the color? It's just a thought - please don't think I'm attacking you, because that's not at all my intention. Bays are lovely and I have a number of them myself. I was just kinda thinking, as being a breeder myself, that you might be losing out on some real beauties by strictly going bay, but this is entirely your choice and I hope you get exactly what you're looking for! :) Let us know who you choose!