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View Full Version : Go for the long spot or hold to the deep?



SkipChange
Sep. 2, 2009, 05:39 PM
Now I know that it depends on the horse, depends on the situation, depends on what you intend to do after that jump, etc. But I was curious about opinions on this subject. Ideally I'll take the perfect spot to every jump, ha I wish I was that good to find it every time! I have discussed this with my trainer but I just wanted to hear more on the subject. Thanks!

Oxer--would you rather hold for the deep or roll to the long spot?
Vertical--same question

Do you ride an oxer differently than a vertical?

*I ask this question with 3'6" jumper fences in mind with a true vertical (no brush or boxes out front) and a pretty good spread to the oxer. What do you think is the better spot to keep the rails up?

SaturdayNightLive
Sep. 2, 2009, 05:41 PM
You're always better off with a deep spot than a long one. Especially with oxers. Long spots are dangerous, and become more so the higher (and wider) the fences get.

theblondejumper
Sep. 2, 2009, 05:44 PM
Deep spot. Especially on the more adjustable horses. I always find it better to wait.

gg4918
Sep. 2, 2009, 05:53 PM
Deep spot but for some reason only find the long one.......

dmj
Sep. 2, 2009, 05:53 PM
I am always better off w the deep spot. My horse jumps better from this spot. A lot of horses tend to get flat from the long spot, while the deep one allows them to curl up & over.

ETA, honestly, I don't ride an oxer and a vertical much differently, my horse is scopey and can take care of it - but maybe I'll hold him off of the vertical just a bit more.

Long Spot
Sep. 2, 2009, 06:46 PM
Despite my screen name, I'll take the deep spot please.

FrenchFrytheEqHorse
Sep. 2, 2009, 06:56 PM
Despite terrible photographic evidence to the contrary (http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2796403100069198992GVJmsP), I prefer to hold for the deep spot.

WorthTheWait95
Sep. 2, 2009, 06:56 PM
Always hold for the deep. Better deep with impulsion then long and weak.

In terms of oxers and verticals...I'm a jumper rider so I always looks for that deep, right to the base spot at verticals and a nice ride to the base at oxers as well but not as close as verticals unless there is some reason to (ie: tight turn on landing, very short combination or whatever).

I remember riding with GM when I was just making the transition to jumpers and having to circle continuously over a vertical while he kept telling me to get deeper and deeper. I was at the point where it felt like a chip and he wanted me to add ANOTHER stride! Took me a while to get the hang of how to correctly ride that distance. Thank god I was lucky enough to move up on a saint of a packer with scope to spare.

JLC7898
Sep. 2, 2009, 06:57 PM
Deep Spot! During lessons my trainer would have me practice jumping from the deep spots. My horse preferred deep spots as well! I always felt that i would be much safer to hold to the deep than to try and jump a large fence from a long spot.

SkipChange
Sep. 2, 2009, 07:59 PM
Thanks, I have always been taught that the deep spot is the safe bet. In a recent lesson trainer encouraged me to hold him extra deep to the verticals with a more "up" canter and, not necessarily take a long spot to oxers, but have a more open, rolling step to them. A super long spot to an oxer I might worry about clearing the back rail but I think she just wanted more power and a confident step to the big oxer since horse is quite green. We're still figuring each other out--he used to be want to leave long but now he really listens to me to tell him when to leave. Which means I better have an answer for him!

Love your pic frenchfrytheeqhorse so I'll add one...

I'm not talking mega long like this...
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30111791&l=c9d0eefd65&id=1293060230
Don't worry;)
(Pic above is my friend in 3'6" jumpers on a mare with...attitude.)


Always hold for the deep. Better deep with impulsion then long and weak.

In terms of oxers and verticals...I'm a jumper rider so I always looks for that deep, right to the base spot at verticals and a nice ride to the base at oxers as well but not as close as verticals unless there is some reason to (ie: tight turn on landing, very short combination or whatever).


I think this is what the trainer was going for, thanks.

WorthTheWait95
Sep. 2, 2009, 08:02 PM
I'm not talking mega long like this...
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30111791&l=c9d0eefd65&id=1293060230
Don't worry;)
(Pic above is my friend in 3'6" jumpers on a mare with...attitude.)





Holy crap! It looks like they made it from the comments below the pic but good lord!

spmoonie
Sep. 2, 2009, 08:04 PM
:eek:
Thanks, I have always been taught that the deep spot is the safe bet. In a recent lesson trainer encouraged me to hold him extra deep to the verticals with a more "up" canter and, not necessarily take a long spot to oxers, but have a more open, rolling step to them. A super long spot to an oxer I might worry about clearing the back rail but I think she just wanted more power and a confident step to the big oxer since horse is quite green. We're still figuring each other out--he used to be want to leave long but now he really listens to me to tell him when to leave. Which means I better have an answer for him!

Love your pic frenchfrytheeqhorse so I'll add one...

I'm not talking mega long like this...
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30111791&l=c9d0eefd65&id=1293060230
Don't worry;)
(Pic above is my friend in 3'6" jumpers on a mare with...attitude.)



I think this is what the trainer was going for, thanks.


Oh my goodness! There is easily room for another full stride in that picture!

rosebecard
Sep. 2, 2009, 09:47 PM
It sounds like your trainer wants you to ride him forward to the deep spot to the oxers. You can get to a deep spot in different ways. Riding forward with power to the deep will help teach him to jump off his back end and get his front legs out of the way better. Riding him backwards and weak to the deep could land you on the back rail. I've done it both ways, so I hope this helps!:)

meupatdoes
Sep. 2, 2009, 09:55 PM
Holy sweet shizzle, y'all left from last week!
:lol::lol::lol:

Addison
Sep. 3, 2009, 07:37 AM
Deep, deep and deep. A long distance to an oxer is especially dangerous.

tBHj
Sep. 3, 2009, 08:03 AM
Wow, that second picture is insane!

SkipChange
Sep. 3, 2009, 08:44 AM
Thanks for the feedback. The picture is not of me or my horse. The horse had serious game and the kid was brave. Obviously there were some training issues going on, she did manage to clear it but I would not try to replicate that! Lucky for me my horse has a great sense of humor and enough scope to take care of me, but I don't think HE ever takes off quite THAT long.

Summit Springs Farm
Sep. 3, 2009, 09:04 AM
Wow that is quite a photo!

I cringe when I hear "hold" to the deep one, I hope you mean and are thinking "wait" for the deep one.

When you hold your horse you are restricting the use of his front end (head and neck) and are loosing his ability to carry his hind end forward underneath him.

If you want to successfully ask him to shorten his stride and wait with you for the deep one, then you have to close your hands and release with the rhythm of the canter stride.

I'm sure guys already know this.:)

SkipChange
Sep. 3, 2009, 09:22 AM
Wow that is quite a photo!

I cringe when I hear "hold" to the deep one, I hope you mean and are thinking "wait" for the deep one.

When you hold your horse you are restricting the use of his front end (head and neck) and are loosing his ability to carry his hind end forward underneath him.

If you want to successfully ask him to shorten his stride and wait with you for the deep one, then you have to close your hands and release with the rhythm of the canter stride.

I'm sure guys already know this.:)

Thank you for this. This wording and strategy is certainly more correct. Perhaps this explains the difference between our weak deep spots and our strong, smooth deep spots. When I say hold I don't mean just with my hand, he is quite responsive to shortening cues from my seat and body as well. However this responsiveness is a relatively recent development and I'm still getting a feel for how much is too much/not enough and how much is perfect. The concept you suggest is certainly not something new but obviously I haven't been actively thinking about it. I'm young (19) and a sophomore in college so I like to be reminded about good ideas like this frequently, so thanks!

One eventing clinician I rode with made anyone who made a mistake to stop and say, "I'm a teenager and I forgot to think." I'm pretty sure even adults were made to say this! But I definitely confess that I'm still a teenager and I still forget to think. :D

findeight
Sep. 3, 2009, 10:01 AM
I got a pretty good trainer and big "R" judge. Her mantra in lessons when no distance is there or the rider needs a map to find one is "the chip is your friend. The chip is your friend". As opposed to the old "when in doubt, leave it out".

To the point of working with the advanced kids on very low jumps over and over to find that deep spot and get the horse willing to add one in there, chip, off a bad spot. With the jumps in the dreaded circle of death. That one can get ugly:winkgrin:.

Of course, you get that by managing the canter properly. That's the point. Strong position and stride management on a horse willing to listen which, in the Jumpers, is tough. Not so easy in the Hunters either.

Even in the Hunters there is a difference between leaving a gap and leaving long and you do not want long. So you school to where they are willing to wait and you are willing to wait and then you can soften when you do see that gap.

I think the answewr to leaving long or short when you miss is answered for anybody who has ever flipped one. Or seen a bad one.

caradino
Sep. 3, 2009, 10:19 AM
definitely the deep spot.

i had one jumper trainer for a while who constantly encouraged us to ride right to the base of everything, but still keeping the engine running so the horse would pat the ground with both front feet before lifting off, and have a nice round jump. this was hard for me, coming from hunterland and riding a lot of huntery horses in his class. i'd toodle around the course getting pretty, mediumish hunter distances, look to him for comments, and get, "well that was a nice HUNTER round. please go back and do it like a jumper. ride to the base."

then again sometimes when riding down to an oxer i get TOO concerned with getting in deeper, and end up with really heinous chips/not enough horse to get over. i could do with a little more galloping to the oxers. :winkgrin:

raave05
Sep. 3, 2009, 10:23 AM
its probably not pc anymore, but i come from the "when in doubt leave it out" school of thought for most people. often, the deep spot is your better bet, but almost as often, amateurs tend to take their leg off and hold with their hands to get that deep spot. chipping in to a 3'6 oxer with a decent spread is not my idea of fun, nor is it safe for horse and rider.

for the average person, i'd rather see them go for the long spot (like 2 feet long not 2 strides long) because it forces them to make an active decision and apply leg and ride for the distance. a moderately long distance at 3'6 is always going to be better than a no-impulsion chip-in.

Come Shine
Sep. 3, 2009, 10:31 AM
This is a great thread. My coach has been telling me to ride to the base and I was struggling a bit with the concept. Reading this thread has really helped!

findeight
Sep. 3, 2009, 10:33 AM
Bad riding to the deep spot is not the point...because if they can only find the deep spot by riding backwards to a 3'6" oxer and, instead, would get the long and weak spot with equally weak riding?

They should not be doing 3'6" because they will be in serious trouble long and weak into a combination and if they cannot control that canter, they need to drop down and learn to get that done. Aware that is not a popular choice with those in too big a hurry.

That's not even my personal opinion...have watched many of our Olympians and other notable GP riders and coaches teach and they are all about learning to like and create that proper deep spot and ONLY THEN learning to create a longer spot when that is the best choice by softening and allowing the horse to move up-not by pushing them up...or getting run off with onto the long, weak one.

My regular clinician, as in twice a year for the past 10 years or so, is a private coach for an Olympian who went to Hong Kong...and if he says you want to learn to master the canter to get the horse to the base? I'll take that.

It's hard because it requires total riding skill and not just jumping around. But it's the safe choice and the way those I respect teach it. By teaching them to get to the base, the foundation and control is laid to jump from any appropriate spot with full control.

superpony123
Sep. 3, 2009, 10:34 AM
Either option can be dangerous if not taken the *right* way. For the 3'6" jumpers, especially to an oxer, you almost never want to take that long spot. It's a bigger effort for the horse, and the horse is a lot more likely to grab a rail particularly with the hind end. Generally, long spots are much less appealing the higher the fences get. Deep spots are okay to a degree--of course they're not the perfect spot, but there are different meanings of deep--i do NOT mean having your horse BURIED to the fence. I mean coming in to the base. Not chipping, per se. I mean doing it the right way.

Either a long spot or a short spot can be done "right" as long as you keep the horse coming with energy, propulsion from behind, and plenty of necessary balance. When you've got a horse going like that, ideally he should be able to leave safely from any distance (within reason) if the horse has got a bit of scope. You don't want your horse coming in weak to a long or short spot, especially with a bigger fence like 3'6". It's either take a long weak spot and pull the rails with the back end most likely, or get in real deep and probably either knock most of the fence down with the front end or at least the top poles (depending on how scopey your horse is)

As far as preference goes, I try to make the best decision for the moment. Snap decisions. We'd all like that perfect distance but sometimes we just can't fit it in, so we have to make a plan. Are we going to hold up and try to add or go forward and gallop, leave out a stride? It all depends on the ride. If I feel my pony is being a little lazy, I definitely don't want to try for the long one, I'll hold him back a bit and try to build up more energy from behind so we can make it gracefully over, even if it's a short spot. If he's VERY forward, I know I'd have to hold him back a LOT to fit in another stride, and I run the chance of him breaking to a trot (we're working on his adjustability, but when going from super forward to nice and collected, he thinks, OK cool time to trot) so sometimes the super forward (as long as its not TOO fast/on the verge of "running away") is the better option.

It all depends. The key to getting it done safely and the right way are to make sure the horse is balanced and has plenty of support, and has the energy coming from the hind

WorthTheWait95
Sep. 3, 2009, 10:35 AM
Bad riding to the deep spot is not the point...because if they can only find the deep spot by riding backwards to a 3'6" oxer and, instead, would get the long and weak spot with equally weak riding?

They should not be doing 3'6" because they will be in serious trouble long and weak into a combination and if they cannot control that canter, they need to drop down and learn to get that done. Aware that is not a popular choice with those in too big a hurry.

That's not even my personal opinion...have watched many of our Olympians and other notable GP riders and coaches teach and they are all about learning to like and create that proper deep spot and ONLY THEN learning to create a longer spot when that is the best choice by softening and allowing the horse to move up-not by pushing them up...or getting run off with onto the long, weak one.

It's hard because it requires total riding skill and not just jumping around. But it's the safe choice and the way those I respect teach it.

:yes: Exactly, well said.

findeight
Sep. 3, 2009, 10:46 AM
Oh...and just to clarify...that "chip is your friend" excercise does not mean in front of a 3'6" oxer.

It means schooling at home over small fences to learn how to balance and fit the stride in well before the base and retrain the eye to see a good deeper distance as opposed to a flyer.

I dunno, over the years watched most of the marquee names in the soprt warming up for major GPs and they school them pretty big-and right to the base before going in the ring.

indygirl2560
Sep. 3, 2009, 11:49 AM
I would take the deep. One of the jumpers I've been riding lately will go psycho if you let him take the long spot. He thinks he can find his own distances and likes to rush, but he's much safer if I hold for the deep.

Come Shine
Sep. 3, 2009, 12:08 PM
I remember watching GM school a top rider over a BIG triple bar and he told her to jump it again but 6" closer to the base. What a WOW jump that was.

SkipChange
Sep. 3, 2009, 12:22 PM
Thanks findeight. I am in no particular rush with this horse and have been taking it pretty slowly with him. This was our first lesson with all the jumps up 3'6" (for this particular horse) and it's been about a year since I've done a course over 3' so my eye needs some work. We got some great jumps with a lovely distance and some great jumps off the deep distance but I got a few jumps off long and deep distances that I just wasn't pleased with. I am in no rush to show, I did a few 2'6" and 3' local shows to expose him to new places but I'm ready to sit back and wait for things to come together (and they are starting to) to take him out again. I want to do more than "get around," I want to turn out a balanced, smooth course. I do need to focus on riding forward to the base and not getting there backwards, sometimes I have it and sometimes I don't. Ideally I will see my spot a long ways out and smoothly adjust to the perfect spot but I just wanted a little dialogue on ideas when you fail to accomplish that. I plan to work more over smaller fences and develop a more forward ride to the base which hopefully I will be able to apply to the bigger fences. I have always felt what many of you have said, that they would take the deep spot, and I do feel safer with the deep spot. I firmly believe that bad riding to either spot is just that, bad riding. Don't worry, we are working with a trainer who I love and she offers great discussion about how to ride him. I just thought it would be useful to hear from others and it has. Thanks!

dmj
Sep. 3, 2009, 12:36 PM
yeah, triple bars require riding ALL the way to the base - really no other option on those.

Mimi La Rue
Sep. 3, 2009, 12:42 PM
When I started jumping again after a few years off, my trainer asked me this question one day. Not really ever giving it much thought, I said I'd rather ride to the long spot. She had me test out my theory and I learned real quick I'd rather ride to the deep.