New Holland lost hydraulics

[MistyBlue]

Okay mechanically inclined folks...my 2004 NH TC33DA no longer has working hydraulics.
Mr.Blue started it yesterday and when he went to raise the bucket and rake to move it...hydraulic stuttered a lot, screeched a little and bounced up bit by bit. He immediately lowered both, then tried again and absolutely nothing.
So today I started the tractor up, same exact thing. Very sketchy, stuttering, bouncy, screechy hydraulics, then nothing. Turned tractor off, restarted immediately and same thing.
What would cause the hydraulics to almost work when first starting and then go completely dead?
And please dumb *way* down any explanations or things to check since I'm not exactly tractor savvy. I can fix things as long as they're explained, at least I usually can. All I can do solo is oil and fuel filter changes, fuse changes, basic maintenance, etc. Other than that, I'm lost.
Won't call dealership...last time tractor wouldn't start I called them and asked where the fuses were on it to check the fuses and that I also wanted to come pick up a new battery. They refused to tell me where the fuses were, stated they'd send someone out with a new battery. I told them I'd pick up a new battery and was fine with that. They said don't bother driving out, someone who worked there lived one street over from me and would just drop the battery off on his way home. I thought that was nice...only Mr Nice Guy came by, said he'd show me where the fuses were, proceeded to check fuses and found a blown one. Had a box of replacement fuses of all types with him so swapped out blown fuse and left battery for me to change out. Offered him $25 tip, said I'd call dealership and give my CC to pay for battery.
Dealership said they'd send a bill. 2 days later got a bit for $520.00. $72.40 for battery and fuse....$447.60 for drive time, delivery fee and labor. :eek: :eek: :eek: Yup, argued it until blue in the face. (I'm not kidding on that cost) They knocked $90 off and that was it. Paid it and vowed to never use them again.
So...help? Please?
(BTW, made final tractor payment last month, received clear title in maiil yesterday. Figures)

[Bluey]

Wow, they sure are very proud of their mechanics, are they.:eek:

Did you check the hydraulic oil?
First is always to change the filters and if close to time, the oil.

It sounds like you have a cricket in the line.:D
That is what we found when we had that problem, many, many years ago.
Sill can't figure how one got in there, unless it jumped to his death while we were working on some hydraulic part...:cry:

If it still doesn't work after changing oil and filters, get a JD mechanic and maybe they will be a little more reasonable.:lol:

[GoForAGallop]

I second what Bluey said. If it's not that, though, it might be the actual hydraulic pump, which is going to suck. My father has one of our tractors split in half right now, replacing the pump, which is a cheap and easy (easy as in relatively straightforward...but the giant Massey IS in two parts!) job for someone who knows what they're doing. But it's going to run you a lot of money at a dealer, just because it's time consuming.

Try looking around for a tractor repair place, apart from the dealer. We have a place here that will come and pick up your tractor on a trailer (and these are full size farm tractors, not hobby farm tractors) and fix it for CONSIDERABLY less than dealers. Not sure if there's anything like that in your neck of the woods, though.

[MistyBlue]

Thanks guys...I was assuming it had something to do with either hydraulic oil filter or maybe air in the lines. (or both) Now to find the connections on the tractor...New Holland put a lot of common maintenance parts in next to impossible to reach locations, I'm guessing hoping that the less savvy tractor owners won't even try simple things themselves.
I love the actual tractor...it's been wonderful. And the sales division of the dealership did an excellent job...not trying to oversell and very up front and honest. Salesperson did warn me that the parts and mechanic department can sometimes be a pita...guess he wasn't kidding. :no:
Am hoping it's not an actual cricket though. :lol: My mother had a mouse built a nest in her transmission...causing her car to take off every once in a while without any help from her. :eek: And my brother once found a dead bird in an excavator tire...still wondering how the hell that happened. :confused:
There are a couple of really good tractor guys in this area that I can rope into helping me out if necessary. Am hoping this is a simple fix though. If not...I'll go kidnap one of those guys. ;)

[trubandloki]

You should come to NY and use our NH dealership. The parts guys are wonderful. They are always helping us find parts for our way freaking old baler and haybine. Go in one day and the next day they have the parts. When they can find an aftermarket product they offer that up.

I can not believe they charged you to deliver a battery when they insisted on bringing it to you.

That is just low!

[TripleRipple]

MistyB - told dh, who just happens to be replacing the hydraulic pump in our JD 4620. A small leak became a honking big leak, but we still had use of the bucket. But wow, all that oil....

He said it sounds like there isn't enough hydraulic fluid to run the hydraulics properly. He thinks more likely a leak than a hydraulic pump failure, because if the pump had failed, you wouldn't have been able to move it at all, generally speaking. But of course, could be like ours, ie the beginning of a pump failure.

So make sure you have hydraulic fluid (there should be a separate hydraulic oil dipstick to check). If no fluid, fill it and try again to lift. If it works, you either have a leak somewhere or the beginning of a hydraulic pump failure.

Second the notion re the JD mechanics - they've been totally helpful to dh on this. This is an older machine, so while the pump replacement isn't hard, once you get into the machine, you find out how everyone else who owned it cobbled stuff together for previous repairs, and need to re-do that as well:)

[Frank B]

Contact your BBB or C of C. If they've been screwing many folks over, numerous calls may get some action.

[JSwan]

MB - I have an old NH that is somewhat easier to work on. I also hit it with blunt objects a lot.

I had a bit of a problem and it turned out to be a very slow leak.

A friend of mine is on tractorbynet a lot and swears by it. He has a NH too - a much newer model. http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/

It's worth asking there if you can't detect a leak.

Sorry about your NH dealer. Is it time to by a manual?

Good luck.

[harveyhorses]

We had a great repair place, not the dealer, but ours was old anyway. Oh this is so sad, I have flashbacks of tractor repairs, our MF was pulled apart in our front yard, fixed and put back together when our pump went. I believe we fixed anything else that might go wrong while we had it opened. (I got to hand DH tools etc)
Yep, check filters connections etc first. good luck.

[Bluey]

Remember that hydraulic system and hoses work under high pressure.
If you find a leak, don't try to put your finger there to see if it really is a leak, or let it hit you anywhere, because that high pressure little bitty stream of oil will go thru you like a knife and it is poisonous.
Sometimes they have to get that oil out with surgery.

Always, before messing with any hydraulic system, be sure you have let some pressure off by wiggling the handles back and forth a few times.

Just a reminder, as I am sure you already know that, as there are stickers all over machinery telling about it.

[MistyBlue]

I've got the manufactorers manual that came with the tractor. Amazingly it only outlines a very few things. But there are entire manuals I can buy online and will order one tonight.
I did check the hydraulic/transmission oil just a couple hours ago. And yep, it's low. And a tad sludgy looking. I'll crawl under the tractor tomorrow and drain it out and then replace it and see how that does. Was going to just add some more oil, but then if I do a change on it I'm just wasting the oil I put in. Seems no more difficult to change than the engine oil, which I've done in the past. Probably due for another change for that too, so I'll put that on the list of Stuff To Do tomorrow. *sigh*
I went to the local parts place and ordered a new filter for the trans/hyd filter, but damned if the manual I have shows where that filter is. I spent a good hour crawling all over/under/through the tractor looking for what might be the right filter. All other filters are labelled on the tractor but this one. Ugh, just remembered it's time to change the fuel filter too, but can;t get to that one with the bucket down. That's an easy peasey one though.
So does anyone have any idea where the filter is for the transmission/hydraulic? I was surprised that the manual stated that this tractor uses the same for transmission and hydraulics...I know some do and some don't. I assumed mine didn't because the tractor starts right up and runs fine, which I would guess if the same fluid is going through the transmission then it would run choppy. :confused:
Thanks so much everyone...HUGE help this has been. Probably a good thing I have a crappy dealership to deal with because it's better for me to learn this stuff anyways.

[MistyBlue]

:eek: Good reminder Bluey! :eek: I didn't know that.
Now I have to figure out where the hell the handles are to let some pressure off.

[Bluey]

:eek: Good reminder Bluey! :eek: I didn't know that.
Now I have to figure out where the hell the handles are to let some pressure off.

Those are the sticks you use to raise and lower implements and the bucket.

Normally, hydraulic filters are below the cab, in JD, Massey Ferguson and International, that is all I know.
They some times are accessible under a plate under your feet.
You have to be half monkey with long arms to reach them.
There have been some I could absolutely not reach enough to turn them loose, like on our bulldozer.

Better go to an internet tractor site and ask there.:yes:

[JSwan]

Hey - I'm gonna freak you out but I'll say it anyway.

Be careful working on this.

If you need to lift the bucket or any other part of the tractor - please secure it and have someone with you. And I mean really secure it - with a chain and brace it so it can't come down on you.

A local guy was working on his dump truck and it came down on him and killed him.

We'd miss you if you got chopped in half, MB. So be careful!!!!!

Lecture over.

[MistyBlue]

Those are the sticks you use to raise and lower implements and the bucket.

Doh...well that makes sense. :D I'm probably over analyzing the heck out of this.
Thanks for the clues on where to look for the filter. I found one that might be a filter...under the back PTO area and somewhat reachable. The trick will be seeing if I have the arm strength to turn it. Thank goodness I finally bought myself a filter wrench. It fits on all filters so far except for the fuel filter that I actually bought it for. But I have a long handled wrench I can get in there through a small area and with little 1/8 of an inch turns I can unscrew that one. Don't know what they were thinking putting it there.
Hmmm, maybe I'll take the camera out and take photos of the process as I screw around with it. That way for others stuck at farms without mechanically inclined people there can learn as I do. I've been thinking of doing that with the regular maintenance on my auto-waterers. I'm an ace with those things. Tractor, not so much. Yet. :winkgrin:
Now if the horses or couplings do have a leak, will I see any steam escape? Or hear a hissing? How do I find any leaks if I do have them?

[MistyBlue]

G-r-e-a-t Jswan...first buring acidic poisonous jets of hydraulic fluid and now killer body chopping buckets. :eek:
Fark this...maybe I will hire someone! :lol:
Nah, I was planning on bracing the bucket anyways. I'm anal about that stuff. You should see what I do to the lawn mower when I loft that too change the blades or sharpen them. Looks like the vehicle version of bondage.
Although if I can't get the bucket up, it has nowhere to fall to. It's on the ground now. And of course parked in not the best place to be crawling under and around the thing.
Good to hear I'd be missed though. :D

[Bluey]

Generally, oil leaking hydraulic hoses are dirty, because the dust sticks to that oil.

If you find an oil leak around a hose itself, you need to replace the whole hose, as the ends are crimped with special tools, so they can stand the pressure.

If the leak is where the hoses connect, you may have a bad O ring and that you can replace yourself.

I think that you were just low on oil.

What is worrysome is that your hydraulic oil, that should always look almost like light olive oil and flow very well is not like that.

Did anyone put the wrong oil in the wrong hole?:eek:

[harveyhorses]

Now if the horses or couplings do have a leak, will I see any steam escape? Or hear a hissing? How do I find any leaks if I do have them?

If it's cold enough you will see steam escaping from your horse. and I would not really call it a hiss.:winkgrin:

or if you want me to be serious, our leak just leaked fluid. no noise no steam, just nast hydraulic fluid.

[MistyBlue]

LOL Harvey...leave it to me for a dingbat typo! Now I can't always see a leak from the horses, but I can usuallly smell it. :winkgrin:

Bluey...when I checked the oil it looked like olive oil with a few blobs of black oil in it. :confused:

[TripleRipple]

Hey - I'm gonna freak you out but I'll say it anyway.

Be careful working on this.

If you need to lift the bucket or any other part of the tractor - please secure it and have someone with you. And I mean really secure it - with a chain and brace it so it can't come down on you.

A local guy was working on his dump truck and it came down on him and killed him.

We'd miss you if you got chopped in half, MB. So be careful!!!!!

Lecture over.

And I'll second that lecture. I completely forgot about this aspect because dh just took off the entire bucket and arms so he could take off the JD nose and get to work, so there wasn't a bucket to worry about anymore. Mr. JD became just a plain old field tractor for now. Dh said the front end came off very easily, but he is pretty mechanically minded so what is easy for him and a JD might not be as easy otherwise. Think he was comparing taking it off the JD with taking the front off his old Massey Ferguson.

There are many stories out here about dead people and their last moments with their equipment.

[Bluey]

Hydraulic filters are very sensitive, if they clog the least, you can't run things, there is not enough pressure.

You may have something contaminating the hydraulic oil and that clogged the filter and so you don't have pressure.

What can do that?
Someone put the wrong oil in the hydraulic system or there is a leak between systems somewhere.

You know, we used to do much of our own work, but tractors didn't cost so much and were rather simple.
Today, I would let an expert make the mistakes trying to fix it.;)
Or you may keep trying and eventually figure it out yourself.:)

[MistyBlue]

HA!
Just finished fixing my tractor. And she runs like a charm and purrs like a kitten.
Okay, well she purred like a kitten for 10 feet, then hacked up a hairball and quit. BUT, that had a lot to do with hubby walking around the tractor saying,"what's this do?" and "what's this switch for" and I hadn't realized while he was pointing to switches...he was switching them. Turn off your fuel filter switch and the tractor coughs up hairballs and faints. :lol: *sigh*
Changed out both hydraulic filters, drained the hydraulic/trans fluid and replaced it all. Yup, both filters had dirt in them. One was on the filthy side, the other was a bit gunky. Fluid drained looked like mocha latte. Nice new olive oil colored fluid in there now.
Since I was filthy as hell I went ahead and changed the oil, but neither of my filter wrenches fit the damn oil filter. Couldn't get it off by hand, so has old filter and new oil. Damn it...will go to Carquest Tuesday when it reopens and get a new wrench in the right size. When I swap that one out I'll change the fuel filter too. Need the bucket up for that, can't reach it otherwise. Will also change the air filter then too...what the hell, might as well have ALL new filters. :D
So yay! Tractor hydraulics working and the change of fluids and filters was easy-peasey! Thanks everyone sooooo much for the help. I can now change all fluids in the tractor with no problems myself. It's so nice having the bucket and rake working without any stuttering, jerking or hissing. Smooth and silent. :yes: :)

[hosspuller]

HA!

Changed out both hydraulic filters, drained the hydraulic/trans fluid and replaced it all. Yup, both filters had dirt in them. One was on the filthy side, the other was a bit gunky. Fluid drained looked like mocha latte. Nice new olive oil colored fluid in there now.


Something is still wrong :confused: ... Even 15 year old hydraulic fluid drained from a backhoe was clear, till the bottom gregs of the tank. Check to make sure rain water is not getting into the system. Look at the filler caps. If the hydraulic fluid was low, there is a leak somewhere. If fluid can get out, contaimination can get into the sytem. A brown swirl in the fluid sounds like engine oil or maybe the gregs of the tank.

[MistyBlue]

Ahhh crap. Seriously? The liquid was same viscosity as the new, but it was an opaque light beige. The new fluid is a pale clear amber/yellow.

[Bluey]

Great that you could do so much.:cool:

One thing I don't get, our oil filter wrenches are a steel loop that adjust to most sizes of filters, that you can squeeze most any place and use to gently twist the filters off.
How come yours didn't adjust to the different sized filters?

Olive oil is the color you are supposed to have in hydraulic oil, new or old, or there is something wrong with something else somewhere.:yes:

Keep checking your hydraulic oil and if it has any more gunk showing in it, do have it repaired right, or you may really be into a big bill there.
At least ask a mechanic about what it could be.

It feels good when things work again, doesn't it.:)

[Bluey]

Ahhh crap. Seriously? The liquid was same viscosity as the new, but it was an opaque light beige. The new fluid is a pale clear amber/yellow.

That sounds like water in the oil.
The shops here have the oil tested and can tell you what is going on, what the contaminant is.
That helps them to decide where to look further.

[hosspuller]

Ahhh crap. Seriously? The liquid was same viscosity as the new, but it was an opaque light beige. The new fluid is a pale clear amber/yellow.

Bluey may be correct about water, Also the low fluid level may have allowed the pump to churn air into the oil. (kinda like a greasy margarita') If the opaque fluid clears after sitting a day, it was air. If the fluid separates into layers or doesn't clear at all, it was water. Either way you still have a problem. Contamination or a leak.

Having the old fluid tested will be definitive as the cause / problem :yes:

[JSwan]

Agreed. Sounds like water.

Don't ask me how I know. ;)

[MistyBlue]

Bluey, my filter wrenches are the same...a metal looped band. Except they only constrict so much. I have two different sizes and the oil filter doesn't fit either one. The smaller one the loop doesn't fit over it and the larger one doesn't constrict enough to grip the filter. Mine only constrict a small amount. Probably so I have to keep buying new ones. ;)
Soooo....crap. There's something wrong with my fluid. I checked the drained fluid this morning...no loss of air bubbles and no separation. Looks exactly like it did when I drained it yesterday. Still same viscosity, still the color of a cup of coffee with cream in it. Or caramel colored. Will have to bring some of it out to test this week.
Does it matter that my hydraulic fluid is from an HST? My tractor is hydrostatic...the same fluid runs the hydraulics, transmission and rear axels.

[hosspuller]

Soooo....crap. There's something wrong with my fluid. I checked the drained fluid this morning...no loss of air bubbles and no separation. Looks exactly like it did when I drained it yesterday. Still same viscosity, still the color of a cup of coffee with cream in it. Or caramel colored. Will have to bring some of it out to test this week.
Does it matter that my hydraulic fluid is from an HST? My tractor is hydrostatic...the same fluid runs the hydraulics, transmission and rear axels.

No... It's not about the fluid you just put in. :sadsmile: There's something wrong with your tractor. Doesn't matter that it's a hydrostat. Except there's more expensive things for the contaminated oil to mess up. Precision metal parts operating close together don't live long in watered oil. Don't delay getting this fixed and the oil + filter changed again. Most modern tractors use a common tank for the transmission, brakes, hydraulics, steering, etc. Makes for a single point to check fluid levels.

I did think of another source of water. Your coolant. Some tractors have a oil cooler connected to the engine cooling system. The engine cooling system is pressurized at operating temperture while the hydraulic system is open to atmoshere. Check the level of your radiator water. If it's low, I'd suspect it's going into your hydraulic system. :cry:

[MistyBlue]

Double crap...my coolant level is low. Just checked it the other day when I was heading out to get all the fluids for replacing everything in the tractor. Sonofabitch...that's something I can't fix. Time to call in a mechanic. Just won't use the dealership, they'll charge me at least $5k most likely if they charged over $500 for a battery.
Freaking figures...made the last payment on the damn thing last month. :mad:

[harveyhorses]

No... It's not about the fluid you just put in. :sadsmile: There's something wrong with your tractor. Doesn't matter that it's a hydrostat. Except there's more expensive things for the contaminated oil to mess up. Precision metal parts operating close together don't live long in watered oil. Don't delay getting this fixed and the oil + filter changed again. Most modern tractors use a common tank for the transmission, brakes, hydraulics, steering, etc. Makes for a single point to check fluid levels.

I did think of another source of water. Your coolant. Some tractors have a oil cooler connected to the engine cooling system. The engine cooling system is pressurized at operating temperture while the hydraulic system is open to atmoshere. Check the level of your radiator water. If it's low, I'd suspect it's going into your hydraulic system. :cry:


That's what happened to my FIL's tractor. His was an old International. (first tractor I ever loved:yes:) He had it fixed, and he is 'frugal' so maybe it won't be that $$$ bad.
I have been fighting with my stupid riding lawn mower, replaced the started, new spark plug, since the old one had rust on it. There was a mystery wire left over, black, looked like just a ground wire, so I put it on a likely looking bolt, then the battery died. It is on the charger now. Of course my 25 yo charged stopped working so had to go get a new one. Fiddle dee dee.
Somebody called my lawnmower a tractor. No it does not have a PTO. clueless harry half acre. ( I am feeling bitter and jaded:yes:)
Whine over, good luck with your system.

[Bluey]

Double crap...my coolant level is low. Just checked it the other day when I was heading out to get all the fluids for replacing everything in the tractor. Sonofabitch...that's something I can't fix. Time to call in a mechanic. Just won't use the dealership, they'll charge me at least $5k most likely if they charged over $500 for a battery.
Freaking figures...made the last payment on the damn thing last month. :mad:

Depending on what it is, it may still be under warranty.
You may want to check that first.

Anyone that works with machinery knows that there is always something breaking or needing fixing before it does.
Better learn to be patient, as you hurry up and fix it.