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DownYonder
Sep. 2, 2009, 08:25 AM
There is an interesting thread on Off Course about the fact that USEF records scratched entries as DNP (did not place). Probably a good idea for everyone to be aware of this practice as it could really affect a sale horse's record.

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=221824

AM
Sep. 2, 2009, 12:42 PM
Those people are talking about hunter-jumper shows. Who knows what kind of software those management companies use. Before you panic, check the Fox Village software that almost every dressage shows uses to report results. The eventing software that I've used for scoring removes scratches or No Shows from the class list all together. It does track the riders who withdraw between phases of an event and those do appear on the final report.

Dressage Art
Sep. 2, 2009, 01:14 PM
You can still scratch for any reason in dressage shows (aka horse is not good enough in the warm up, so I don't want to get a bad score = I'll scratch) and nothing will be recorded in dressage shows. Just like you never even signed up. It will not show up in your year end print out.

It's a shame, since there are score chases that do go to shows, look at the judge and scratch if that judge is too harsh for them or horse doesn't feel 100% on their aids.

I think there are only 2 reasons for scratching: horse is too dangerous to ride today or coming up lame.

I wish USEF/USDF would show the scratches or no shows in the year end reports.

yaya
Sep. 2, 2009, 04:52 PM
You do have to report all scratches/withdrawals/no-shows, etc. even with Fox Village. USEF requires it.

But they don't do much with it, especially if it's a dressage show. Because they don't give dressage awards (unless it's Friesian, Morgan, Arab, or Saddlebred) USEF doesn't really track dressage show results, they leave that to USDF. I just called up my horse's record, and most rides only have placings, they don't even have the score recorded! (It does have my scratches as DNP though)

Bogey2
Sep. 2, 2009, 06:06 PM
It's a shame, since there are score chases that do go to shows, look at the judge and scratch if that judge is too harsh for them or horse doesn't feel 100% on their aids.

I think there are only 2 reasons for scratching: horse is too dangerous to ride today or coming up lame.

I wish USEF/USDF would show the scratches or no shows in the year end reports

why do you care if a person scratches and for the reason? Or the no shows? I am curious. Should we "report" the reason and have it verified? There are many reasons for scratching and not all as sinister as you think.

bird4416
Sep. 2, 2009, 06:39 PM
I think there are only 2 reasons for scratching: horse is too dangerous to ride today or coming up lame.

You forgot reason number 3. A down pour just occured and the footing absolutely sucks. This is the only reason I have ever scratched.

Dressage Art
Sep. 2, 2009, 07:04 PM
why do you care if a person scratches and for the reason? Or the no shows? I am curious. Should we "report" the reason and have it verified? There are many reasons for scratching and not all as sinister as you think. I admit, I'm not fond of people who are score shopping and who will scratch if they see that the judge is too harsh to protect their year end award median score.

Oh, yet another reason to scratch: hot, hot, hot, weather - I did/do scratch if it's more than 100F.

yaya
Sep. 2, 2009, 07:21 PM
Another reason: you got the scores you want and don't want to tire out your horse with classes you don't need.

Much better to have the horse back in his home pasture rather than showing just because you entered.

Bogey2
Sep. 2, 2009, 08:59 PM
well, I have a small barn but this summer alone we had:

horse would not get on trailer
horse pulled shoe in grass arena in first test
heat and humidity too much for rider
heat and humidity too much for horse
rider was sick
flat tire on trailer

honestly, DA, you are a judge right? maybe you should check your own bias before you post;) We are not all scratching because we don't want to ride in front of you.:lol:

Dressage Art
Sep. 2, 2009, 10:00 PM
honestly, DA, you are a judge right? maybe you should check your own bias before you post;) We are not all scratching because we don't want to ride in front of you.:lol:
:lol: I'm not a licensed judge. I'm a judgelink: I graduated with Distinction from USDF "Learner" judging program (about 30% do). That means that USDF recommends people like me to judge schooling shows. The last schooling show that I judged was oversubscribed, that was my 3rd year judging at that venue. I'm very touched that riders do want to show for me and care about my opinion how they progressed in the last 3 years - so no bias from that side from me. I just honestly don't like score chases, since some people who want to participate in the Year Awards can't afford to sign up and scratch and sign up and scratch - it's just not fair. (And no, I do not participate in the year end awards either - so no bias from that side from me either)

hoopoe
Sep. 2, 2009, 10:45 PM
The USEF does not maintain any award system for Dressage. The USDF is the award giving org.



Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back, when we all used brown tack, there was a AHSA (USEF) award with point for placing year end "high point". It was simply based on how many top points you got,nothing about percentage ( ie point chasing)

Someplace in the rust zone that is my brain I remember that for the purpose of calculating HOY ( et al) awards, OFFICIAL scratches had no effect ( official meaning reporting to office in a timely fashion, communicating with the gate steward and having them report to office might suffice -------any TD's here ???!?)

scratching in an official manner did no harm,

however No Showing, just not showing up would result in a score of zero which was factored into the median score.

I am not sure how eliminations are factored in.

I am sorry I cannot remember if this was an official change of the USDF or if it was proposed. I had a crappy day at work and I don't have the desire to try to figure it out



Perhaps someone on the nerd herd could chime in if they know this detail. Feel free to tell me I am an idiot. I cannot easily find anything in the USDF site on how scores are calculated. It is required per USEF rules ( DR 123.3) to record on the score sheet the status of the ride ( scratch eliminated /no show/excused) and there are a lot of No Shows that get recorded.

Always scratch, in person (in writing if pre show) or at least make sure to check in with the steward and double check in with the TD if possible . Most stewards are a volunteer and sometimes someone with no knowledge of key rules.

if you are pursuing an end of the year award, these details are important

and believe me, you should not pull up in a class and tell the judge you want to withdraw because you think the score is going to effect your year end results

REALLY that is not a good idea.

Really

JRG
Sep. 3, 2009, 07:48 AM
USEF does in fact list shows on your horses record. I have checked mine and I have the same issues as the person that stated the thread. If someone not familiar with dressage awards looked at the usef instead of the usdf they would see incomplete information on the horse's record, at least on mine.

I have shows listed (USEF), some with scores some with out, some with ranking some without...etc.

FriesianX
Sep. 3, 2009, 09:57 AM
Yeah, I've used USEF records to check horse's show histories too, and the DNPs are VERY misleading! Looking up a mare I recently bought (jumper), she had a ton of DNPs, and I was thinking to myself, wow, that is a lot of "last place in the class" shows :no: Then later on, found out the BNT often signed up all the client horses, then decided last minute which ones to actually take into the ring. So in many cases, a DNP was actually a scratch. Misleading?

USEF record is useful because it goes back more than one year (unlike USDF, where you have to PAY to check beyond one year), and the placings are nice to know, even in dressage, since scoring is not always consistent (a 1st place with a 60% in a class of 10 is worth knowing about - tells you the judge may have just been really tough).

I wish USEF would use a SCR or NS for scratch or not-shown...

And yes, there are many, many reasons for not showing - I think the most common ones are rider doesn't feel well, weather not cooperating (too hot, too wet), horse not feeling quite right, etc. All are valid reasons to scratch. I believe most "point chasers" know ahead of time which judges they want to show under, and don't "waste their money" on the tougher judges.

Movin Artfully
Sep. 3, 2009, 10:54 AM
Another reason: you got the scores you want and don't want to tire out your horse with classes you don't need.

Much better to have the horse back in his home pasture rather than showing just because you entered.

Recently scratched at a schooling show for same reason above. I was showing a 4yo, and the show scheduled T-4 BEFORE T-2. I had wanted to use T-2 as a warm up.

The horse performed beautifully and scored well at T-4...so I scratched the second class and went home early. I didn't realize how many people would come to me with raised eyebrows later...I was simply rewarding my horse.

Glad this topic came up regarding USEF,...

yaya
Sep. 3, 2009, 02:10 PM
Never count on classes being run in order.

Most shows I go to (and the ones I run) have them in a random order, although many will TRY to put lower numbered tests before the higher numbered ones.

But usually there are people on multiple horses, people riding consecutive classes (like T-3 & T-4 or T-4 & 1-1), or various other scheduling reasons that prevent classes from being run in order. It just doesn't work.

Bogey2
Sep. 3, 2009, 02:16 PM
The horse performed beautifully and scored well at T-4...so I scratched the second class and went home early. I didn't realize how many people would come to me with raised eyebrows later...I was simply rewarding my horse.

I scratched a second test with my 4 year-old on a hot day because his first test went well...and no one cared. I must live in the land of who cares if someone scratches!