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EmJae
Sep. 1, 2009, 12:49 AM
This is sort of a "critique" question in reverse... does anyone have a picture of what they think shows a perfect jumping position? It doesn't have to be a personal picture, but since I've only started to jump, I'd like to see what I'm supposed to be doing. :)

klmck63
Sep. 1, 2009, 01:23 AM
Brianne Goutal (http://www.hunterjumpernews.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/Brianne%20Goutal%20and%20Mon%20Gamin,%20winners%20 of%20the%201.40m%20Acorn%20Hill%20Farm%20Challenge .jpg) (Won all major equitation finals)

Beezie Madden (http://www.charlottejumperclassic.com/uploads/galleries/2008_Charlotte_Jumper_Classic_Photos/cjc_08_47.jpg)

Jill Henselwood (http://www.hunterjumpernews.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/Jill%20Henselwood%20and%20Special%20Ed%20by%20Cans port%20-%20web.jpg)

The ever so famous George Morris (https://www.rootintootin.com/catalog/images/PICT0037.JPG) (I'd definitely recommend the book too to figure out exactly what you should be trying to do!)

Mclain Ward (http://www.usef.org/images/wir/labaule06_ward.jpg)

Jessica Springstein (http://ota2008.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/jessica-springsteen-aboard-papillon136.jpg)

There are many other fabulous examples (with critiques) in 'Hunter Seat Equitation' by George Morris. Definitely get the book! These are some that I could think of and could also find on the internet.

ETA: Perfect is pretty hard to find but IMO all these riders are generally pretty good examples.

Have fun learning to jump!

superpony123
Sep. 1, 2009, 01:30 AM
cant find it right now, but im sure someone can post the link of that pretty famous GM pic which shows the perfect auto release and prettymuch overall great eq.

DancingQueen
Sep. 1, 2009, 01:45 AM
I know of one!
It's a pic I for a long time thought was of my bigg boss but turned out to be of her daughter.
It's a schooling pic of her jumping out off a table style bank and it is as far as I can recall pretty much perfect old school Equitation. GM would love it!
She is perfectly balanced, you'd have to look twice to see it's a bank jump.
The pic is about 10-12 years old so she's wearing the hunt "cap" that was still OK to show in a decade ago which gives it that old time flair.
Either way, her position is perfect, her release is text book and what gives me the biggest kick is that I am fairly sure (will have to doubble check my sources) that the horse she is on was young then but in time retired into into our shool program and is still active teaching beginner riders.

I'll try to find, scan and post it but I'm computer challenged so bear with me if it takes a few days.

Miss Behave'n
Sep. 1, 2009, 02:14 AM
this is amazing!
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Meadows/7078/jimkohn.jpg

EmJae
Sep. 1, 2009, 07:10 PM
There are many other fabulous examples (with critiques) in 'Hunter Seat Equitation' by George Morris. Definitely get the book! These are some that I could think of and could also find on the internet.

Just ordered the book! Thank you for the suggestion!

Thanks to everyone who posted pics. They're really helpful! :)

WorthTheWait95
Sep. 1, 2009, 07:40 PM
this is amazing!
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Meadows/7078/jimkohn.jpg

This is my all time fave pic I think. Esp of an auto release. I used to have a pic of some top rider when I was a very little girl on a giant chestnut stallion that was literally a perfect picture but I lost it in a move and have never been able to find it on the net. I cut it out of the chronicle when I was 5 or 6. I wish I could remember who it was. I can see it perfectly in my head but just can't put a face to the rider.

As far as current riders today Mclain Ward always gets my vote for beautiful style and effectiveness. I could watch him ride all day.

And def buy George's book. Lots of great info and really nice pics.

ALTERnativeGirlfriend
Sep. 1, 2009, 08:33 PM
klmck - sorry but as good as the riders you show are, and as nice as the eq is overall in those pictures for the level they are competing at, some of them (most notably Beezie and Jill) are FAR from perfect equitation!!!!

JB
Sep. 1, 2009, 08:38 PM
Brianne Goutal (http://www.hunterjumpernews.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/Brianne%20Goutal%20and%20Mon%20Gamin,%20winners%20 of%20the%201.40m%20Acorn%20Hill%20Farm%20Challenge .jpg)
WHO is that horse? I want that horse!

Of the list in this post, Brianne was by far the best. Everyone else had some fairly major flaws. That is not saying they are not incredibly effective riders - hello...Beezie! :lol: But when talking equitation, those riders in those picture were obviously flawed.


this is amazing!
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Meadows/7078/jimkohn.jpg

IMVHO, THIS is the epitome of a perfect jumping position. Perfect leg position, flat yet relaxed back, head up, butt over saddle, beautiful following release with contact. Textbook. It does *not* get any more perfect than this. This is more perfect than any perfect crest release.

WorthTheWait95
Sep. 1, 2009, 08:41 PM
WHO is that horse? I want that horse!



.

That is Mon Gamin and you'll have to go through me to get him ;). I'm pretty sure he was recently turned into a Breyer IIRC. One of my favorites out there.

Not his best effort but you can get a feel for him here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaJyEPHYMYI

JB
Sep. 1, 2009, 08:44 PM
I just found that, thanks LOL! I WILL fight you for him :D What a total studmuffin! What is his breeding? I can't find anything about him other than his name :(

JinxyFish313
Sep. 1, 2009, 08:46 PM
Mon Gamin is a Breyer now? That's awesome! Will have to pick him up, always wished he could live at my place :)

JB
Sep. 1, 2009, 08:50 PM
Mon Gamin Breyer (http://www.modelhorsesktm.com/detail.php3?c=1&p=1&t=11)

csmpony
Sep. 1, 2009, 09:35 PM
this is amazing!
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Meadows/7078/jimkohn.jpg

That picture is Jimmy Kohn. My best friend was married to him. Definitely one of the best examples of perfect form you could find.

jumpingmaya
Sep. 1, 2009, 09:41 PM
I just found that, thanks LOL! I WILL fight you for him :D What a total studmuffin! What is his breeding? I can't find anything about him other than his name :(

All I know is.. he's a Selle Francais....
He's to die for!!! :D

JinxyFish313
Sep. 1, 2009, 09:55 PM
Mon Gamin is a Breyer now? That's awesome! Will have to pick him up, always wished he could live at my place :)

nlk
Sep. 1, 2009, 09:57 PM
I can't pull up the geocities pic link everyone says is so great:(

I have to agree that the original list of riders are all AMAZING riders but Brianna had the best Eq by far. The others all had things really noticeably wrong...Jumping ahead, left behind, and stirrup that slid home, or a stirrup that was on the toes...But truly amazing riders, but lets face it when you are jumping that high, on that powerful of an animal it's pretty hard to look great.......Even the video of Brianne Goutal she has "flapping" elbows, when you're doing that much and have to work that hard.....something is bound to go.....personally I Idolize all the riders listed and only hope I am a minor fraction of the rider....

Nikki^
Sep. 1, 2009, 09:58 PM
This is my favorite

Perfection (http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t13/ntorchia/AP_005047.jpg)

neutral milk hotel
Sep. 1, 2009, 10:19 PM
Michelle Morris
http://www.chronofhorse.com/Photo_Gallery/Images/1130311072144331/MichelleMorris.jpg

Mali
Sep. 1, 2009, 10:33 PM
This is my favorite

Perfection (http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t13/ntorchia/AP_005047.jpg)


Now THAT is a cool looking jump (not the equitation, but the actual JUMP)!

klmck63
Sep. 1, 2009, 10:35 PM
klmck - sorry but as good as the riders you show are, and as nice as the eq is overall in those pictures for the level they are competing at, some of them (most notably Beezie and Jill) are FAR from perfect equitation!!!!

Other than the fact that perhaps both have their feet too home in the stirrups, what makes these pictures 'FAR' from perfect? While perhaps not the most typical stylists like Mclain Ward I think both of these pictures showcase good equitation, particularly given the height of the fence and the power of the horse. The OP is looking for something to aspire to and I think most would agree that Beezie and Jill are good people to aspire to be!

Late
Sep. 1, 2009, 11:27 PM
this is amazing!
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Meadows/7078/jimkohn.jpg
absolutely fantastic. I agree with what everyone else has said about this photo


This is my favorite
Perfection (http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t13/ntorchia/AP_005047.jpg)

I would LOVE to see a fence like that in modern-day competition. Lucinda Green set that up once one of the times I was riding in a clinic with her (it was a bit more of a + than an X though, if that makes sense)... about half the size. the results were certainly entertaining :winkgrin:

as far as the comment about auto releases, the idea is fantastic, but hard to catch them in the "modern" show ring - most of the photos like this one:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v397/weezeriffc/Picture1-2.png are a little deceiving because often the rider has one hand rested on the neck. can't refute the eq in that photo - still beautiful :)

here's a fun one: http://www.horsemagazine.com/ARTICLES/D/De%20Nemethy,%20Bertalan/SJM/Adam%20II%201939b.jpg
I love, love old photos like this. perhaps not show ring perfect eq we want today, but so simple and effective :yes:

ALTERnativeGirlfriend
Sep. 1, 2009, 11:44 PM
Other than the fact that perhaps both have their feet too home in the stirrups, what makes these pictures 'FAR' from perfect? While perhaps not the most typical stylists like Mclain Ward I think both of these pictures showcase good equitation, particularly given the height of the fence and the power of the horse. The OP is looking for something to aspire to and I think most would agree that Beezie and Jill are good people to aspire to be!

The OP is not looking for something to aspire to. She was looking for examples of what COTHers felt is perfect equitation. Not stellar riding, not super talent - perfect eq.

Beezie's eq is far from perfect in this photo: her ankle is very stiff with little flexibility allowing it to drop, her seat is too far from the saddle, back is roached through the upper and lower back, and her crest release is staggered with one hand resting on top of the crest.

Jill's foot has slipped too far through the stirrup and has zero weight in here heel. Her leg appears to defy gravity as there seems to be NO downward push at all, and yet the leg position is not all that bad. Her seat is just bordering on too close to the saddle for this point of the jump and her back is also roached, especially in the upper back. Again we see a staggered crest release with one hand higher than the other. In all honestly, if I did not know who this is and their skill level, I would think this was a rich amateur on some expensive horse hanging on for dear life at a height they shouldn't be jumping... and that she looks like she's about to die (even her face looks like this was an "oops" moment)!

Brianne's pic I like and with some minor tweaks would be very close to perfect (it's a difficult angle to judge). George is stellar although I'd still like to see a flatter back (though I love how his back and the horse's back make a perfect matching arch) and is he pinching with his knee? McClain is a true stylist. His GP rounds always look like big eq rounds. In this pic I'd like to see more flexibility in his heel for "eq" though it is stellar overall. Jessie's pic I like but she has a distinct look that her leg is slipping out forward from under her and that she's falling back towards the saddle with her seat. Heel, back, eyes, and hands (modern crest release, arguably too high on neck) are lovely.

Personally I like the Michelle Morris pic someone posted the best of all of them. http://www.chronofhorse.com/Photo_Gallery/Images/1130311072144331/MichelleMorris.jpg A perfect mix of old school riding and modern style! I applaud her!

Again, let me just say that I am only ripping these pictures apart for the sole purpose of eq judging. These are all stellar riders on wonderful horses who know how to get the job done. Just like faulting a hunter rider for bad eq for ducking on an amazing hunter, these are just moments in time of what could have been flawless rounds. I am simply pointing out comparisons with "perfect" equitation.

neutral milk hotel
Sep. 1, 2009, 11:44 PM
I didn't catch that her hand was resting on the neck - I see it now though!

DressageReine
Sep. 1, 2009, 11:54 PM
I looooove this one :) It's of Gigi Nutter, and I know she's not doing an automatic release, but I love how balanced she is with her horse. Plus, he looks pretty good himself! It's the most balanced picture I've seen:

http://www.touchngofarm.com/index.php?option=com_gallery2&Itemid=279&g2_itemId=205&g2_imageViewsIndex=1

klmck63
Sep. 2, 2009, 12:16 AM
The OP is not looking for something to aspire to. She was looking for examples of what COTHers felt is perfect equitation. Not stellar riding, not super talent - perfect eq.

Beezie's eq is far from perfect in this photo: her ankle is very stiff with little flexibility allowing it to drop, her seat is too far from the saddle, back is roached through the upper and lower back, and her crest release is staggered with one hand resting on top of the crest.

Jill's foot has slipped too far through the stirrup and has zero weight in here heel. Her leg appears to defy gravity as there seems to be NO downward push at all, and yet the leg position is not all that bad. Her seat is just bordering on too close to the saddle for this point of the jump and her back is also roached, especially in the upper back. Again we see a staggered crest release with one hand higher than the other. In all honestly, if I did not know who this is and their skill level, I would think this was a rich amateur on some expensive horse hanging on for dear life at a height they shouldn't be jumping... and that she looks like she's about to die (even her face looks like this was an "oops" moment)!

Brianne's pic I like and with some minor tweaks would be very close to perfect (it's a difficult angle to judge). George is stellar although I'd still like to see a flatter back (though I love how his back and the horse's back make a perfect matching arch) and is he pinching with his knee? McClain is a true stylist. His GP rounds always look like big eq rounds. In this pic I'd like to see more flexibility in his heel for "eq" though it is stellar overall. Jessie's pic I like but she has a distinct look that her leg is slipping out forward from under her and that she's falling back towards the saddle with her seat. Heel, back, eyes, and hands (modern crest release, arguably too high on neck) are lovely.

Personally I like the Michelle Morris pic someone posted the best of all of them. http://www.chronofhorse.com/Photo_Gallery/Images/1130311072144331/MichelleMorris.jpg A perfect mix of old school riding and modern style! I applaud her!

Again, let me just say that I am only ripping these pictures apart for the sole purpose of eq judging. These are all stellar riders on wonderful horses who know how to get the job done. Just like faulting a hunter rider for bad eq for ducking on an amazing hunter, these are just moments in time of what could have been flawless rounds. I am simply pointing out comparisons with "perfect" equitation.

Maybe I am reading too much into what the OP said. She said she was new to jumping and wanted examples of perfect equitation. I guess I assumed she meant so that she could learn to ride like those examples, and therefore aspire to be like them.

I understand and agree with a lot of what you said. I somewhat disagree about the heals/ankles issue. I have had several clincians point out (including Jill) that a lot of us focus too much on heels down and not enough on contact on the correct part of your calf. I think that that is what both Jill and Beezie are exhibiting here. I don't think Beezie's back looks roached, perhaps more her conformation than an actual mistake. The hands? Yes, not classic. I assume she's turning. Jessica's leg is right at the girth. I don't think it slipped. Her seat may be too close to the saddle but I don't think it is related to her leg slipping. I said the pictures weren't perfect, just close to. Imo each exhibits really solid and positive aspects that I would like to develop in myself.

I'm not going to even try to critique the George picture. If he says it's good enough to put on the cover of a book about equitation then that's good enough for me ;)

Perhaps agree to disagree? :)

suze
Sep. 2, 2009, 12:39 AM
Originally Posted by Nikki^
This is my favorite
Perfection

I would LOVE to see a fence like that in modern-day competition.

I was taught that's that's a true swedish oxer, not the ones you see now where the poles don't actually cross. We set this fence up every year for our Halloween Show - all over fences classes are Gambler's Choice and it's interesting to see the reaction of the riders as opposed to the reactions of the horses. The riders are horrified when they walk the course but the horses that are put to it (with a confident rider) seldom even give it a look.

JB
Sep. 2, 2009, 08:17 AM
I looooove this one :) It's of Gigi Nutter, and I know she's not doing an automatic release, but I love how balanced she is with her horse. Plus, he looks pretty good himself! It's the most balanced picture I've seen:

http://www.touchngofarm.com/index.php?option=com_gallery2&Itemid=279&g2_itemId=205&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
Decent, but not really "perfect". Heels are up, foot is barely in the stirrup, butt is too far out of the saddle.

Again, not saying *at all* that the rider is not very talented and effective. But it's not a perfect position in the saddle (regardless of the release).


Maybe I am reading too much into what the OP said. She said she was new to jumping and wanted examples of perfect equitation. I guess I assumed she meant so that she could learn to ride like those examples, and therefore aspire to be like them.
Form to function - people need to learn the correct form. It's there for a reason - it provides a strong basis from which to develop balance and effectiveness. If people try to emulate the big riders who win lots of $$, but whose leg swings back, or whose heels come up, or whose back roaches, or who lay on the horse's neck, they will never develop an effectiveness because their own balance will never develop. The big riders who have those faults are already well-balanced and their form can suffer and not cause problems.

I mean, if beginning riders aspire to have their form look like this (http://www.estherschultz.com/Esther_Schultz/Blog/Entries/2009/5/25_Grand_Prix_Show_Jumping_files/DSC_0150.jpg) or this (http://www.equifit.net/images/riders/large/Aaron_Vale.jpg) right off the bat, they will have all sorts of problems, including this. (http://www.estherschultz.com/Esther_Schultz/Blog/Entries/2009/5/25_Grand_Prix_Show_Jumping_files/DSC_0151.jpg) Aaron Vale can have his leg back like that because he already has excellent balance. He'd never had developed that balance by having his leg anywhere near that position in the beginning.

That's why the comments about how Beezie's eq is not perfect. It's not. It doesn't mean she's not effective. But riders learning to jump should not think it's good equitation, because trying to look like that from the start is not going to lead to good things.

imapepper
Sep. 2, 2009, 08:17 AM
Bill Steinkraus - He looks pretty darn close to perfect in almost every picture that I have ever seen of him. This article was the best I could find online with a search.

http://www.horsemagazine.com/ARTICLES/S/Steinkraus,%20William/SJM/SJM.html

WorthTheWait95
Sep. 2, 2009, 08:35 AM
That's why the comments about how Beezie's eq is not perfect. It's not. It doesn't mean she's not effective. But riders learning to jump should not think it's good equitation, because trying to look like that from the start is not going to lead to good things.

While I agree and understand your point about the OP's question I just want to point out a lot of Beezie's eq issues on Authentic are because he's such a freak of a jumper (in a good way). Just to clarify for the OP since she sounds like she's new to the sport. His style is very unique and not easy to ride/stick with over those big fences. He doesn't give her that big, round jump but jumps almost a little inverted and has a tendancy to jump over his front end slightly and twist. Very jarring but he's an amazing horse. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMVMaH9aWHw&feature=related

While def not perfect here she is on Judgement (http://vichorse.com/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=207871&private=0). You can see a big difference in her eq although he's another powerhouse. ETA: Hmmm I can't get the link to work but you can do a google search for her name and it's one of the first ones on the image search.

And here she is winning the equus medal (http://www.horsesdaily.com/news/showjumping/2004/04wef/03-08-equus_madden.html). :lol: A little off topic but it's kind of cool seeing the top grand prix riders do an eq class.

JB
Sep. 2, 2009, 08:41 AM
While I agree and understand your point about the OP's question I just want to point out a lot of Beezie's eq issues on Authentic are because he's such a freak of a jumper (in a good way). His style is very unique and not easy to ride/stick with over those big fences. He doesn't give her that big, round jump but jumps almost a little inverted and has a tendancy to jump over his front end slightly and twist.

That's fine! I'm not saying that every rider can maintain perfect eq on every horse or every jumping effort. I'm certainly not saying Beezie and Aaron can't ride because their eq isn't great (or even good!) in those pictures, because they can outride me by miles.

But the point is that it's NOT perfect equitation, which is what the OP wanted.

The question wasn't "show me great riders who do the best they can on hard jumping horses over big jumps" ;)

The question was "does anyone have a picture of what they think shows a perfect jumping position?"

Because the real issue is that the OP has just "started to jump, I'd like to see what I'm supposed to be doing."

A beginning jumping rider does not need to see pictures that people say/think are great equitation, but the hands are floating, the heels is up, the back is roached, *regardless* of whether that rider is effective in their job.

grayarabpony
Sep. 2, 2009, 08:47 AM
A little off topic but it's kind of cool seeing the top grand prix riders do an eq class.

There are several top equitation riders who went on to have successful professional careers. Chris Kappler is one.

I agree about Bill Steinkraus, and remember his comment about economy of movement while riding whenever I see a picture.

WorthTheWait95
Sep. 2, 2009, 08:53 AM
There are several top equitation riders who went on to have successful professional careers. Chris Kappler is one.

Yes, I know that. That particular class is for current top nations cup riders only.


March 8, 2004 – Beezie Madden, 40, of Cazenovia, New York, topped a class of 24 veterans of Nations’ Cup competitions to win the 2nd Annual $25,000 Wellington Equus Medal on Monday, March 8, 2004, at the Palm Beach Polo Equestrian Club in Wellington, Florida.

The two-round night class was held under the lights in the Internationale Arena as a benefit for the Wellington Equestrian Alliance. Only riders who had represented their country in a Nations’ Cup were eligible to compete.

ALTERnativeGirlfriend
Sep. 2, 2009, 08:53 AM
I understand and agree with a lot of what you said. I somewhat disagree about the heals/ankles issue. I have had several clincians point out (including Jill) that a lot of us focus too much on heels down and not enough on contact on the correct part of your calf. I think that that is what both Jill and Beezie are exhibiting here. I don't think Beezie's back looks roached, perhaps more her conformation than an actual mistake. The hands? Yes, not classic. I assume she's turning. Jessica's leg is right at the girth. I don't think it slipped. Her seat may be too close to the saddle but I don't think it is related to her leg slipping. I said the pictures weren't perfect, just close to. Imo each exhibits really solid and positive aspects that I would like to develop in myself.

I'm not going to even try to critique the George picture. If he says it's good enough to put on the cover of a book about equitation then that's good enough for me ;)

Perhaps agree to disagree? :)

Hahahaha, sure. I also don't think we are seeing things that far off anymore. I also agree with you that too much emphasis can be placed on a lowered heel. I always teach my students to ride "heels down" first and foremost however, with solid work on the lower leg. Later when they've learned balance can they develop their own style.

As WTW pointed out, that is part of the challenge in "judging" these stellar riders. All are great riders in their own way, but have their own style of riding that may or may not fall into the "perfect eq" category. When Beezie's doing her GP jumpoff, I think the LAST thing she's thinking about is making sure her eq looks good in case someone snaps a pic and decides to critique it on the internet! lol

I also feel that many of these photos show "good" eq - like the pic of Gigi Nutter - but not "perfect". They are correct and functional, but usually due to the size of the jump or scope of the horse, not quite perfect. The pictures imapepper posted from olden days are phenomenal. Short of that stiffened heel trend, they are STUNNING!

grayarabpony
Sep. 2, 2009, 08:55 AM
Yes, I know that. That particular class is for current top nations cup riders only.

Yeah, but your post insinuated that top riders ignore equitation, which they don't.

WorthTheWait95
Sep. 2, 2009, 08:57 AM
Yeah, but your post insinuated that top riders ignore equitation, which they don't.

Well I certainly didn't intend for it to, I'm sorry you read it that way. Not sure how 'it's fun to see top grand prix riders do an eq class'=they ignore equitation. I meant it's fun to see them on eq type horses, jumping smaller fences because they can really show off their style. Trust me, I know exactly what it takes from those riders to do what they do and am well acquainted with their riding histories. I've ridden with many of them and have nothing but respect for their riding skill as well as their teaching skill and horsemanship.

Dispatcher
Sep. 2, 2009, 09:26 AM
Brianne Goutal (http://www.hunterjumpernews.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/Brianne%20Goutal%20and%20Mon%20Gamin,%20winners%20 of%20the%201.40m%20Acorn%20Hill%20Farm%20Challenge .jpg) (Won all major equitation finals)

Beezie Madden (http://www.charlottejumperclassic.com/uploads/galleries/2008_Charlotte_Jumper_Classic_Photos/cjc_08_47.jpg)

Jill Henselwood (http://www.hunterjumpernews.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/Jill%20Henselwood%20and%20Special%20Ed%20by%20Cans port%20-%20web.jpg)

The ever so famous George Morris (https://www.rootintootin.com/catalog/images/PICT0037.JPG) (I'd definitely recommend the book too to figure out exactly what you should be trying to do!)

Mclain Ward (http://www.usef.org/images/wir/labaule06_ward.jpg)

Jessica Springstein (http://ota2008.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/jessica-springsteen-aboard-papillon136.jpg)

There are many other fabulous examples (with critiques) in 'Hunter Seat Equitation' by George Morris. Definitely get the book! These are some that I could think of and could also find on the internet.

ETA: Perfect is pretty hard to find but IMO all these riders are generally pretty good examples.

Have fun learning to jump!

That picture of Jessica Springstein is terrible. Her butt isn't even out of the saddle and her position looks EXACTLY like a praying manits.

MyGiantPony
Sep. 2, 2009, 09:42 AM
Is it just me, or is anyone else bothered by the current fashion of eq riders having their stirrups a hole or three too long? I swear, some of the riders I watch look like they are reaching into dressage length stirrups.

*JumpIt*
Sep. 2, 2009, 11:35 AM
Could anyone post a "near perfect eq" (since we all know it is a subjective subject) at the lower levels say 3' and under? I know that I won't be jumping higher than 3' anytime soon and I doubt the OP will either if she just started. It would be nice to see what we should look like at the lower levels since that is where we are at now. As wonderful as the auto-release is I know I am not ready to use it yet so those pictures are not that helpful though fun to look at. :)

Madeline
Sep. 2, 2009, 11:59 AM
Now THAT is a cool looking jump (not the equitation, but the actual JUMP)!

What's not to like about the eq.?

RugBug
Sep. 2, 2009, 12:05 PM
Ali Wolff
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v397/weezeriffc/Picture2.png


Love this one.

snobetty
Sep. 2, 2009, 12:18 PM
Surprised no one has mentioned this one:

http://equisearch.com/equiwire_news/gemtwistgregbest250.jpg

(Can't find a bigger image but everyone's seen it before!)

It may not be *perfect* but I think Greg Best & Gem Twist are just everything to want to be - a beautiful jump by horse and rider - they both make it look so easy!

Madeline
Sep. 2, 2009, 12:35 PM
http://community.webshots.com/album/574459177oiATvf

I kept waiting for someone to post the one of GM(?) on the grey horse.

Madeline
Sep. 2, 2009, 12:42 PM
This is my favorite

Perfection (http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t13/ntorchia/AP_005047.jpg)

Who is this?

Windsor1
Sep. 2, 2009, 12:45 PM
A couple of black-and-white shots from the wonderful Marshall Hawkins book A Field of Horses come to mind--one of Ellie Wood Keith Baxter that I'm not sure could be faulted by even the nitpickiest of judges, and one of Noel Twyman over a wall. And they both make it look effortless.

Andrew
Sep. 2, 2009, 12:49 PM
I can't find it off the top, but Tish Quirk took the mose georgous & perfect picture of Gem Twist and Greg Best in Souel 1988!!!!

suze
Sep. 2, 2009, 01:17 PM
I kept waiting for someone to post the one of GM(?) on the grey horse.


You mean this one? (http://horsezbyhawk.com/personal/photos.html)

Yes, it's George.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikki^
This is my favorite

Perfection
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t13/ntorchia/AP_005047.jpg)Who is this?

Isn't that Kathy Kusner?

Madeline
Sep. 2, 2009, 01:30 PM
You mean this one? (http://horsezbyhawk.com/personal/photos.html)

Yes, it's George.
Are you sure this is GM? Looks more like Frank Chapot to me.

I posted the picture I was thinking of in post #43. Mine might be Steinkraus.




Isn't that Kathy Kusner?

Maybe. Looks a little too blonde for her , though. MAry Chapot? Carol Hoffman?

WB Mom
Sep. 2, 2009, 01:33 PM
One of my all time favorites - Gem Twist in the 1988 Olympics.
What an exqusite combination and the fence just put it over the top for me.

http://www.equisearch.com/equiwire_news/gemtwistdies_112006/

suze
Sep. 2, 2009, 01:44 PM
Maybe. Looks a little too blonde for her , though. MAry Chapot? Carol Hoffman?


Yeah, maybe too blonde - Mary maybe. But it kinda looks like Kathy's hairstyle. They all three had incredibly beautiful eq.



Are you sure this is GM? Looks more like Frank Chapot to me.


Maybe, but looks like George's nose to me.

Horsegal984
Sep. 2, 2009, 01:55 PM
Ali Wolff
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v397/weezeriffc/Picture2.png


Not eq related, but whats the white strap thing on the horses neck?

WorthTheWait95
Sep. 2, 2009, 02:08 PM
Not eq related, but whats the white strap thing on the horses neck?

It's her reins. She using the white rubber reins. Kind of an optical illusion in the photo.

klmck63
Sep. 2, 2009, 02:08 PM
Not eq related, but whats the white strap thing on the horses neck?

I think it's just the reins coming over from the other side?

MyGiantPony
Sep. 2, 2009, 02:09 PM
Not eq related, but whats the white strap thing on the horses neck?

Looks like the byte from white rubber reins to me.

MyGiantPony
Sep. 2, 2009, 02:10 PM
ROFLOL - talk about great minds thinking alike!

Horsegal984
Sep. 2, 2009, 02:15 PM
lol ok. I was having a hard time seeing the breastplate apart from the reins I think.

klmck63
Sep. 2, 2009, 02:27 PM
ROFLOL - talk about great minds thinking alike!
:lol::D

Mali
Sep. 2, 2009, 02:41 PM
What's not to like about the eq.?

While I can appreciate good form over fences, I am by no means qualified to critique anybody's equitation. I was just trying to stress how much I liked the construction of the jump itself.

MrWinston
Sep. 2, 2009, 02:52 PM
Surprised no one has mentioned this one:

http://equisearch.com/equiwire_news/gemtwistgregbest250.jpg

(Can't find a bigger image but everyone's seen it before!)

It may not be *perfect* but I think Greg Best & Gem Twist are just everything to want to be - a beautiful jump by horse and rider - they both make it look so easy!

Thanks so much for posting this image. I had almost forgotten it. The jumps for that Olympic Game were designed and built by Brian Cawley of Jump PVC. He was a very close friend of mine and died tragically (way before his time at 46), he was very proud of that jump in particular. Thanks for the reminder. It's so nice to remember that Brian's jumps are part of show jumping history.

Skydog
Sep. 2, 2009, 03:08 PM
Does anyone have the old Chronicle issue showing what GM thought was "excellent" form? I want to say it was from the early 90's of a male rider (Eric [I think] someone) that GM picked as having excellent form, after being asking to find a current rider showing the equitation that GM would like to see. Anyone remember that photo? Or, could find it? Sorry I don't remember more of the name....

Alibhai's Alibar
Sep. 2, 2009, 04:05 PM
Bill Steinkraus - He looks pretty darn close to perfect in almost every picture that I have ever seen of him. This article was the best I could find online with a search.

http://www.horsemagazine.com/ARTICLES/S/Steinkraus,%20William/SJM/SJM.html

Perfection indeed! I have yet to see a bad photo of Steinkraus' jumping form.

I've recently developed an appreciation for Will Coleman's riding. He looks like he would be just as comfortable in the jumper ring as he is on a cross-country course (http://www.flickr.com/photos/rockandracehorses/2482593908).

tja789
Sep. 2, 2009, 04:13 PM
Brianne Goutal (http://www.hunterjumpernews.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/Brianne%20Goutal%20and%20Mon%20Gamin,%20winners%20 of%20the%201.40m%20Acorn%20Hill%20Farm%20Challenge .jpg) (Won all major equitation finals)

Beezie Madden (http://www.charlottejumperclassic.com/uploads/galleries/2008_Charlotte_Jumper_Classic_Photos/cjc_08_47.jpg)

Jill Henselwood (http://www.hunterjumpernews.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/Jill%20Henselwood%20and%20Special%20Ed%20by%20Cans port%20-%20web.jpg)

The ever so famous George Morris (https://www.rootintootin.com/catalog/images/PICT0037.JPG) (I'd definitely recommend the book too to figure out exactly what you should be trying to do!)

Mclain Ward (http://www.usef.org/images/wir/labaule06_ward.jpg)

Jessica Springstein (http://ota2008.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/jessica-springsteen-aboard-papillon136.jpg)

There are many other fabulous examples (with critiques) in 'Hunter Seat Equitation' by George Morris. Definitely get the book! These are some that I could think of and could also find on the internet.

ETA: Perfect is pretty hard to find but IMO all these riders are generally pretty good examples.

Have fun learning to jump!

I have to agree with others--the equitation is far from perfect in these shots. Among other flaws, Brianne G. and Jessica S. are doing the despised (by GM) crest release. Love some of the other photos, though. Especially GB and Gem Twist. That's a classic.

Miss Behave'n
Sep. 2, 2009, 04:19 PM
For 3' this is perfect equitation:
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x220/CaliLover1994/Fieldstone019-1.jpg

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x220/CaliLover1994/P7270268.jpg

haha just kidding. i had a hard time finding a picture under 3'

RugBug
Sep. 2, 2009, 04:19 PM
Among other flaws, Brianne G. and Jessica S. are doing the despised (by GM) crest release.

The crest release is NOT a flaw. It's an option. :rolleyes:



I've recently developed an appreciation for Will Coleman's riding. He looks like he would be just as comfortable in the jumper ring as he is on a cross-country course (http://www.flickr.com/photos/rockandracehorses/2482593908).

Don't tell him (or the eventers) but he's in near perfect hunter seat equitation form. Which is why I always crack up when someone talks like the 'forward seat' or Caprilli of eventing is different than HSE.

klmck63
Sep. 2, 2009, 04:40 PM
Among other flaws, Brianne G. and Jessica S. are doing the despised (by GM) crest release.
:lol: GM is the one who pushes for the crest release in appropriate situations! From this month's PH: "Her short crest release is well done and serves as a nice comparison between it's purpose- providing upper body support". It's not the first time he's said things like that. Brianne and Jessica, while being very accomplished and experienced riders in their own right are still not pros (at least I think Brianne isn't). I wouldn't call it out of the question for them to fall back on a crest release when in need.

Oh, and in my own defense, in the same issue he said: "Readers need to really study this rider's form, because it is absolutely wonderful in every way, reminiscent of the great American ladies such as Katie Prudent, Kathy Kusner, Beezie Madden" ;) Just saying. Maybe the picture wasn't the best example but I still think her equitation is quite great. As someone else mentioned she won the Equus Medal which should count for something even if not much.

Oh well. That's just my opinion. Take it or leave it!

Clarence
Sep. 2, 2009, 05:52 PM
That picture is Jimmy Kohn. My best friend was married to him. Definitely one of the best examples of perfect form you could find.

Is he still alive and riding?

kookicat
Sep. 2, 2009, 06:07 PM
I've spoken to a few top showjumpers, and they use a hand on the crest to help the horse turn on landing.

I think Mary King (http://www.equestrian.org.au/site/equestrian/image/fullsize/19571.jpg) has pretty good form.

Here's a pic of decent form over a lower jump. (http://media.photobucket.com/image/best%20jumping%20form/PintoPony2/April%2009/eIMG_0462.jpg) Sorry, I don't know who it is- came up in a Google search.

Silk
Sep. 2, 2009, 08:30 PM
For 3' this is perfect equitation:
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x220/CaliLover1994/Fieldstone019-1.jpg

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x220/CaliLover1994/P7270268.jpg

haha just kidding. i had a hard time finding a picture under 3'

You actually look pretty darn good! Do youboard at Fieldstone? Super cute horse, too. Who is it?

Tuesday's Child
Sep. 2, 2009, 08:58 PM
This one I snapped of Ian Millar is pretty decent I'd say:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=41673201&l=43d02852d0&id=120803860

I've got a lovely old school pic buried somewhere on my computer, I'll see if I can dig it up...
ETA: Found it!
http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2424957760099718500ezIBYA

joliemom, again
Sep. 2, 2009, 09:29 PM
http://community.webshots.com/album/574459177oiATvf

I kept waiting for someone to post the one of GM(?) on the grey horse.

As a kid, I used to study that picture of Steinkraus on the gray, Bold Minstrel, in the above, to me it was as perfect as perfect gets. Just pulled my ancient copy of Riding and Jumping, and that picture is just as stunning today as it was more than 30 years ago.

tja789
Sep. 2, 2009, 09:47 PM
:lol: GM is the one who pushes for the crest release in appropriate situations! From this month's PH: "Her short crest release is well done and serves as a nice comparison between it's purpose- providing upper body support". It's not the first time he's said things like that. Brianne and Jessica, while being very accomplished and experienced riders in their own right are still not pros (at least I think Brianne isn't). I wouldn't call it out of the question for them to fall back on a crest release when in need.

Oh, and in my own defense, in the same issue he said: "Readers need to really study this rider's form, because it is absolutely wonderful in every way, reminiscent of the great American ladies such as Katie Prudent, Kathy Kusner, Beezie Madden" ;) Just saying. Maybe the picture wasn't the best example but I still think her equitation is quite great. As someone else mentioned she won the Equus Medal which should count for something even if not much.

Oh well. That's just my opinion. Take it or leave it!

I believe that GM regarded "appropriate situations" as beginning jumpers and others who lack strength and balance and hence need to rely on the horse's neck to maintain their upper body position. Riders were supposed to learn the crest release first and then progress to an automatic release. That doesn't appear to have happened in B.G. or J.S. at least as shown in the present photos. Certainly a crest release is preferable to banging the horse on the mouth, but it can hardly be considered part of a perfect jumping position.

Coppers mom
Sep. 2, 2009, 10:37 PM
Don't tell him (or the eventers) but he's in near perfect hunter seat equitation form. Which is why I always crack up when someone talks like the 'forward seat' or Caprilli of eventing is different than HSE.

Not to be snarky, but have you ever evented? You do need a much more defensive seat in eventing, and you have to have several different seats up your sleeve for different situations. It is very different.

csmpony
Sep. 2, 2009, 10:57 PM
Is he still alive and riding?

No, he passed away about 10 years ago. But my friend has that original picture in her house.

pattnic
Sep. 3, 2009, 12:01 AM
I believe that GM regarded "appropriate situations" as beginning jumpers and others who lack strength and balance and hence need to rely on the horse's neck to maintain their upper body position. Riders were supposed to learn the crest release first and then progress to an automatic release. That doesn't appear to have happened in B.G. or J.S. at least as shown in the present photos. Certainly a crest release is preferable to banging the horse on the mouth, but it can hardly be considered part of a perfect jumping position.

I'm pretty sure I have also read an entry where the George stated that it was also appropriate for Grand Prix riders who needed/wanted to give their horses the maximum freedom over a fence. Just for reference.

klmck63
Sep. 3, 2009, 12:07 AM
I'm pretty sure I have also read an entry where the George stated that it was also appropriate for Grand Prix riders who needed/wanted to give their horses the maximum freedom over a fence. Just for reference.

I always got the impression from what he says that a crest release was always okay if you ever needed to do it, you just had to be able to do all the other variations of releasing too as you progress in learning how to jump.

*JumpIt*
Sep. 3, 2009, 12:49 AM
I think GM dispises riders who only do a crest release and are at a level that they should be able to do an auto-release.

kookicat
Sep. 3, 2009, 07:24 AM
Honestly, so long as you're giving your horse freedom over the jump/not catching him in the mouth, does it really matter which release is used? Different things work for different folks- what you see in one picture may not be truly representivite of that rider, or that horse.

Guin
Sep. 3, 2009, 09:13 AM
I guess I'm the only Rodrigo fan here. :D

http://www.estadao.com.br/fotos/rodrigo_pessoa_ap_ok.jpg

http://www.darwood.ca/cgi-script/csNews/image_upload/SJN_2edb.WEF06-RodrigoPessoa.jpg

http://radiogaucha.clicrbs.com.br/rbs/image/4164065.jpg

RugBug
Sep. 3, 2009, 11:23 AM
Not to be snarky, but have you ever evented? You do need a much more defensive seat in eventing, and you have to have several different seats up your sleeve for different situations. It is very different.

Well, I wouldn't presume to say I've "evented", 'cause what I've done was very tiny. However, I've done two recognized events at BN, placing 8th the first time out (damn XC time penalties...I rode too slow. :lol:) and won the second. Was headed to Novice but decided that I didn't want to divert my limited monetary resources to eventing. I school XC when I can, mostly BN, N and a few Training fences.

Of course you need to have that defensive seat for the different situations that XC brings up, but I disagree that it's "very different." Solid leg, solid base, independent seat and hands. The angles (behind knee and hip) will be different depending on the jump/terrain and eventers like their foot more home in the stirrup, but that's the only differences I see. If you ever see a bank in an H/J class...you'll see a little more resemblance. Ever watched someone ride an open water? Same deal.

The thing that eventers forget is that HSE was developed from HUNTING...which is just a fancy word for cross-country with dogs. :winkgrin: Sure, what you see in the H/J ring isn't ideal HSE, but there are some reasons for that, a huge one being that many H/J riders don't get out of the ring and jump on terrain. I know that when I'm jumping ahead or ducking, I like to head out to XC...cures the tendency pretty quickly. :lol:

I know it's odious to many eventers to think that they have anything in common with H/J, but it is what it is.

Trixie
Sep. 3, 2009, 11:50 AM
Not to be snarky, but have you ever evented? You do need a much more defensive seat in eventing, and you have to have several different seats up your sleeve for different situations. It is very different.

Agree with Rugbug - the basics are precisely the same.

Any good hunter rider shouldn't have a problem schooling XC. There's no excuse for not being able to adjust your seat to ride over different terrain or over spooky obstacles.

Just because said defensive seats are not seen frequently in the SHOW ring when the fences are inviting, the ground is smooth, and all is going well doesn't mean they're not up the rider's sleeve and that the rider is incapable of using them when the need permits.

imapepper
Sep. 3, 2009, 12:25 PM
The thing that eventers forget is that HSE was developed from HUNTING...which is just a fancy word for cross-country with dogs. :winkgrin: Sure, what you see in the H/J ring isn't pure HSE, but there are some reasons for that, a huge one being that many H/J riders don't get out of the ring and jump on terrain. I know that when I'm jumping ahead or ducking, I like to head out to XC...cures the tendency pretty quickly. :lol:

I know it's odious to many eventers to think that they have anything in common with H/J, but it is what it is.

:lol: How true :lol: And honestly, you don't see that many eventers with the lovely form that Will Coleman has in that picture. Like hunter riders, the pros at the top levels of eventing develop style that works for what they are doing and the horses that they ride. If you go listen to the eventers, they might just take offense to being compared to a *gasp* hunter rider. No offense meant to eventers. I love the people there and I actually like to go school cross country and have evented. If I had transportation, I would event right now since I have a mare that is a big fan of cross country....not so much a fan of dressage but that's ok ;) I am not a big dressage fan either :winkgrin:

Tuesday's Child.....lovely photo....that one is pretty darn close to perfect. If there is a flaw, I don't see it :)

Coppers mom
Sep. 3, 2009, 01:17 PM
:lol: How true :lol: And honestly, you don't see that many eventers with the lovely form that Will Coleman has in that picture. Like hunter riders, the pros at the top levels of eventing develop style that works for what they are doing and the horses that they ride. If you go listen to the eventers, they might just take offense to being compared to a *gasp* hunter rider. No offense meant to eventers. I love the people there and I actually like to go school cross country and have evented. If I had transportation, I would event right now since I have a mare that is a big fan of cross country....not so much a fan of dressage but that's ok ;) I am not a big dressage fan either :winkgrin:

Tuesday's Child.....lovely photo....that one is pretty darn close to perfect. If there is a flaw, I don't see it :)

That's exactly what I'm talking about, hunter riders commenting on things they don't really know about. Of course you're not going to have the same 'Lovely form' over XC fences as you are in the showjumping ring, you can't. It wouldn't be safe. We appreciate correct equitation just as much as anyone (heck, we're the ones who depend on it to get us through our XC rounds), but it is definitely NOT the same as what you'd see in the ring.

RugBug
Sep. 3, 2009, 01:26 PM
That's exactly what I'm talking about, hunter riders commenting on things they don't really know about.

Wha??? I'm confused

I said the guy has lovely equitation in that picture...over a cross country fence. Did you miss that part? And no, I wouldn't expect him to ride a drop and look the same as in that picture.

ETA: I deleted the rest because all I really need to say is above

Trixie
Sep. 3, 2009, 01:30 PM
That's exactly what I'm talking about, hunter riders commenting on things they don't really know about. Of course you're not going to have the same 'Lovely form' over XC fences as you are in the showjumping ring, you can't. It wouldn't be safe. We appreciate correct equitation just as much as anyone (heck, we're the ones who depend on it to get us through our XC rounds), but it is definitely NOT the same as what you'd see in the ring.

Correct is correct is correct.

Proper jumping form (equitation) is the same in all sports - it's proper jumping form. Balanced, with a good base of support (good leg, good seat).

Some things will slip XC just as they will in show jumping, or over a particularly back cracking hunter jump. No one is sitting here telling you that a hunter rider with their leg out behind them, bum in the air jumping ahead of their horses is "lovely form" in the hunter ring either.

But the BASICS are the SAME. The reason that "correct" is the same across the board is because it's safe, solid, and it works.

Quinn
Sep. 3, 2009, 01:39 PM
Two such photos really stand out in my mind.

One is of Linda Allen and one is of Robin Greenwood. Neither are "recent" pictures but they are so technically perfect and gorgeous, I remember them.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

imapepper
Sep. 3, 2009, 02:20 PM
That's exactly what I'm talking about, hunter riders commenting on things they don't really know about. Of course you're not going to have the same 'Lovely form' over XC fences as you are in the showjumping ring, you can't. It wouldn't be safe. We appreciate correct equitation just as much as anyone (heck, we're the ones who depend on it to get us through our XC rounds), but it is definitely NOT the same as what you'd see in the ring.

I think that you are totally missing the point. You keyed in on one sentence and completely ignored the very next sentence when I said that top eventers develop form that works for their situation and the type of horse they are riding. Sometimes the situation at hand does not always lend itself to the prettiest picture ;) When I said that eventers don't like being compared to hunter riders, I was talking about their perceived sterotype of hunter riders flinging themselves up the horse's neck, having funky leg positions, and floating the reins around the course. That is what most eventers (who just event) think of hunter riders. The sterotypes go both ways. And I have evented.....I regularly school cross country with my young horses. I have schooled up through some Prelim fences back in the day. I ride outside of the arena. I realize that you are not always going to have perfect eq through water or over a drop or over tough terrain. Read the whole post before you start being snarky....or I will have to change my mind about eventers being good natured and open minded ;)

And...BTW....I believe that the fence that Will Coleman is jumping in that picture is a.....cross country fence :eek:

carrie_girl
Sep. 3, 2009, 03:11 PM
My $0.02 regarding the eventing vs. eq debate: In my experience from eventing on the West Coast all my life basicly, it is simply untrue that eventers do not care about eq. Every event trainer I ever had stressed its importance because it is what keeps you safe. It is also true that "good riding is good riding". In fact, my event trainer only traveled to my area once a month, so I took weekly jumping lessons with a local H/J trainer and about once a month went to local shows with him and (depending on the show) did either jumpers or medal classes. And I have to say, I did well for myself and it definitely made me a more effective rider in eventing, my main focus. MANY of the top eventers "cross train" and show in the jumpers. I also agree with many of the opinions of H/J riders that some eventers' eq is simply atrocious, especially at the lower levels! However, I think that the majority of serious event riders have at least decent eq.

Nikki^
Sep. 3, 2009, 03:53 PM
Who is this?

It is Michèle Cancre d'Orgeix (FRA), riding Ocean. It was taken in 1950

Here are others that I like:

Grag Best and Gem Twist (http://www.horsesourcephotos.com/cache/pod/800pixels/PL_003833.jpg)

Greg Best and Gem Twist (http://www.horsesourcephotos.com/cache/pod/800pixels/PL_003818.jpg)

George Morris and Sinjon, 1960 Rome Olympic Games (http://www.horsesourcephotos.com/cache/pod/800pixels/AP_015065.jpg) (ok, lol not a jumping pic)

Fritz Thiedemann (GER) and Meteor, 1960 Rome Olympics (http://www.horsesourcephotos.com/cache/pod/800pixels/AP_022429.jpg)

1964, Pierre Durand, (FRA) riding Gullian (http://www.horsesourcephotos.com/cache/pod/800pixels/AP_006936.jpg)

Laura Chapot and Little Big Man (http://www.horsesourcephotos.com/cache/pod/800pixels/PL_2007-3-4_0681462.jpg)

Mario Maini and Shepherds Bush; Rome 1958 - Puissance bar at 210 x 260 cm (http://www.horsesourcephotos.com/cache/pod/800pixels/AP_013773.jpg) *(6'9 by 8'5) :eek:

ETA: I found all of these at Horse Source Photos (http://www.horsesourcephotos.com/bin/hs.dll/go?a=disp&t=home-loader.html&m=0&s=0&si=814FD43197F04C16B0FDD963646260&se=21)

Coppers mom
Sep. 3, 2009, 05:51 PM
Wha??? I'm confused

I said the guy has lovely equitation in that picture...over a cross country fence. Did you miss that part? And no, I wouldn't expect him to ride a drop and look the same as in that picture.

ETA: I deleted the rest because all I really need to say is above

I didn't quote you.

From working at a hunter barn, and reading these boards, I've heard so many comments about how eventers are all over the place, aren't pretty, etc. But, they don't realize that you can't go down a bank in the same position that GM has on the cover of his book, and you can't go through a tough water complex the same way you see Beezie negotiate a combination. Of course basics such as tight leg and upper body control are the same, but the finer points are different.

The way it came off (best illustrated by the bolded type in my previous quote) was that eventers throw equitation to the wind and don't think that they have to have good equitation. It is good, just different from and a lot more variable than what you'd see in the arena because of the type of terrain.

suze
Sep. 3, 2009, 08:00 PM
Mario Maini and Shepherds Bush; Rome 1958 (http://www.horsesourcephotos.com/cache/pod/800pixels/AP_013773.jpg) - Puissance bar at 210 x 260 cm *(6'9 by 8'5)


Oh.My.Gawd.:eek::eek:

twobays
Sep. 3, 2009, 08:47 PM
Correct is correct is correct.

Proper jumping form (equitation) is the same in all sports - it's proper jumping form. Balanced, with a good base of support (good leg, good seat).

Some things will slip XC just as they will in show jumping, or over a particularly back cracking hunter jump. No one is sitting here telling you that a hunter rider with their leg out behind them, bum in the air jumping ahead of their horses is "lovely form" in the hunter ring either.

But the BASICS are the SAME. The reason that "correct" is the same across the board is because it's safe, solid, and it works.

Exactly. There isn't anything fundamentally different about good equitation in the hunter ring or out going XC. Different disciplines require different tweaks to position (an eventer is going to be riding more defensively than someone showing off his hunter's beautiful jump), but the basics are the same.

Trixie
Sep. 3, 2009, 11:03 PM
I've heard so many comments about how eventers are all over the place, aren't pretty, etc. But, they don't realize that you can't go down a bank in the same position that GM has on the cover of his book, and you can't go through a tough water complex the same way you see Beezie negotiate a combination.

Um, I really don't think anyone here is oblivious enough to think that you're going to look like an eq rider going down a bank. I'd love to see where you saw that. You CAN, however, ride down a bank or through a water complex smoothly and balanced.

I definitely see plenty of crappy form out of both sports. I also see riders who ride beautifully and effectively in each.

Atypical
Sep. 4, 2009, 12:30 AM
Would like to see a little taller through the upper body, and drop the hand for a nice auto release, but otherwise very nice eq.

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/1469628166059350619OMGHXd


And frankly, I love the Will Coleman photo as well

jumper27
Sep. 4, 2009, 11:22 PM
Are you sure this is GM? Looks more like Frank Chapot to me.

I posted the picture I was thinking of in post #43. Mine might be Steinkraus.



Maybe. Looks a little too blonde for her , though. MAry Chapot? Carol Hoffman?
That picture is definately Frank Chapot, no doubt. :)

LudgerFan
Sep. 8, 2009, 01:25 PM
A personal favorite...an old student of mine, now a young professional, snapped on my cell while watching her school a pony jumper that had come in for trial. I find it very difficult finding much to critique...or am I just a proud coach? :D BTW, this is our own mac123 who posts on these threads...

http://www.myhorsephotos.shutterfly.com/29

Janet
Sep. 8, 2009, 02:19 PM
There is a picture of Kathy Kusner jumping a big (puissance) wall that is close to perfect.

TB110
Sep. 9, 2009, 04:46 PM
Along these same lines I have a question. My daughter rides one of her jumpers in a mechanical hackamore and I've noticed in pictures that she always does some form of crest release.. Can an auto release be done with a hackamore and if so does anyone have a picture of it?

Mac123
Sep. 9, 2009, 10:06 PM
Of course! The automatic release, or following hand as it is more appropriately termed, simply means that the riders hands, as being independent from the seat and upper body, are free to follow the basculing movement of the head and neck forward and down. The result is that a straight line from the rider's elbow is maintained through the rein to the mouth.

Though hackamores' reins are set lower than normal bits due to the long shanks, there is no reason a rider cannot follow that movement forward and down through the jumping effort (ie. a following hand or automatic release).

Franke Sloothaak was a master at it on Cassini. I cannot find my favorite picture with a scrupulously perfect following hand, but this one isn't too shabby either. Notice that there is still a straight line from elbow to mouth, though the rein falls a bit below the line due to the shanks of the hackamore.

http://www.horseplanet.net/Horse-Pics/horse-images.asp?id=457

Janet
Sep. 9, 2009, 10:34 PM
Along these same lines I have a question. My daughter rides one of her jumpers in a mechanical hackamore and I've noticed in pictures that she always does some form of crest release.. Can an auto release be done with a hackamore and if so does anyone have a picture of it?
Absolutely.

Found the kathy Kusner picture i was looking for, which is an automatic release, with a hackamore, over a puissance wall.

http://www.kathykusner.com/

EMWalker
Sep. 9, 2009, 11:37 PM
http://www.horseplanet.net/Horse-Pics/horse-images.asp?id=457

ahhhhh... and THIS is why I want to breed my mare to Cunningham.. awesome!

SkipChange
Sep. 9, 2009, 11:43 PM
I love looking through all these pictures! My eq has been suffering severely lately...but here's an old picture of my attempt at an auto release...I really wish it was not so fuzzy because I think it's a cute picture.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30105839&l=f83a4dc637&id=1293060230
(this link should work even if you don't have facebook)

TB110
Sep. 10, 2009, 09:38 AM
Thanks for the hackamore eq pics. In the pics I have of my daughter her hands are about where Beezy Maddens are in her pic or a little lower - so not really crest but even she noticed it when she was looking at her pictures.

TB110
Sep. 10, 2009, 10:05 AM
Someone asked for an eq picture at a lower height. While my daughters eq isn't perfect and she is a jumper I think this is a good pic of a lower height fence. This is a 3'3" level 2 jumper fence. (Go easy on her as I did not ask her permission to post it!)

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b85/Boomafooma/horseystuff/graf8.jpg

geronimo!
Sep. 10, 2009, 10:14 AM
thanks for the links, klmsk63


Brianne Goutal (http://www.hunterjumpernews.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/Brianne%20Goutal%20and%20Mon%20Gamin,%20winners%20 of%20the%201.40m%20Acorn%20Hill%20Farm%20Challenge .jpg) (Won all major equitation finals)

Beezie Madden (http://www.charlottejumperclassic.com/uploads/galleries/2008_Charlotte_Jumper_Classic_Photos/cjc_08_47.jpg)

Jill Henselwood (http://www.hunterjumpernews.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/Jill%20Henselwood%20and%20Special%20Ed%20by%20Cans port%20-%20web.jpg)

The ever so famous George Morris (https://www.rootintootin.com/catalog/images/PICT0037.JPG) (I'd definitely recommend the book too to figure out exactly what you should be trying to do!)

Mclain Ward (http://www.usef.org/images/wir/labaule06_ward.jpg)

Jessica Springstein (http://ota2008.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/jessica-springsteen-aboard-papillon136.jpg)

There are many other fabulous examples (with critiques) in 'Hunter Seat Equitation' by George Morris. Definitely get the book! These are some that I could think of and could also find on the internet.

ETA: Perfect is pretty hard to find but IMO all these riders are generally pretty good examples.

Have fun learning to jump!

Renn/aissance
Sep. 10, 2009, 10:23 AM
It is interesting to see the difference in pictures posted. The older photos often show what to me are style and position flaws--foot home in the stirrup without depth of heel (in fact standing on the toe,) rounded upper back. The newer ones often show pivoting on the knee or a leg so firmly jammed down in the stirrup as to send the upper body back into the tack, or over-closure of the hip angle. The concept of "correct" has changed over time.

I am not sure I believe there is a "perfect" equitation photo because so much is dependent on the jump at that particular moment. Certainly there is a certain position that is ideal over a vertical of a certain height, but as the debate over eventer position vs. equitation position has proven, the circumstances (jump, terrain, etc.) influence that ideal.

For jumps under 3', look in George Morris's Hunter Seat Equitation at the second set of photo examples. Two stand out in my mind as being good demonstrations: "Secondary release--resting on the crest" and "Jumping 'out of hand.'"

BK to some
Sep. 10, 2009, 03:58 PM
This is one of my students that does well in Eq. Not only does she ride correctly, she has a lot of style.

Sorry LockeMeadows, i don't agree with you. I think the style you speak of is not very good equitation. Her stirrups are too long, Her hips in front of the pommel, and she is over releasing. These are not perfect examples of equitation at 3ft.

Madeline
Sep. 10, 2009, 04:12 PM
Brianne Goutal (http://www.hunterjumpernews.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/Brianne%20Goutal%20and%20Mon%20Gamin,%20winners%20 of%20the%201.40m%20Acorn%20Hill%20Farm%20Challenge .jpg) (Won all major equitation finals)

Beezie Madden (http://www.charlottejumperclassic.com/uploads/galleries/2008_Charlotte_Jumper_Classic_Photos/cjc_08_47.jpg)

Jill Henselwood (http://www.hunterjumpernews.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/Jill%20Henselwood%20and%20Special%20Ed%20by%20Cans port%20-%20web.jpg)

The ever so famous George Morris (https://www.rootintootin.com/catalog/images/PICT0037.JPG) (I'd definitely recommend the book too to figure out exactly what you should be trying to do!)

Mclain Ward (http://www.usef.org/images/wir/labaule06_ward.jpg)

Jessica Springstein (http://ota2008.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/jessica-springsteen-aboard-papillon136.jpg)



Call me an old fogie, but if I was pinning this class STRICTLY AS AN EQ CLASS, it would be Mclain, GM then Brianne. First thing I look at is "What would you change" to improve things? In those three, my answer was "Not much." Next is the "Erase the horse and who lands on their feet in balance?" All three do. Mclain gets the nod because he has half of a perfect release.

How would you pin this "class"?

Renn/aissance
Sep. 10, 2009, 04:41 PM
Here's how I'd pin it.

McLain is light in his heel, which loosens his leg and brings his buttocks farther out of the saddle than is ideal. He is about to cross his right hand over the neck. He is not prepared to land in balance in his heel.

George has an excellent leg but appears to be pivoting somewhat off of his knee, which has sent it slightly farther behind the girth than is ideal and created a slight roach to his back. His hand in the crest release is higher than I personally care for (and, I suspect, than he cares for.) When he lands, he will land in his heel, in balance with his horse.

Brianne appears to have an excellent leg, although I suspect she is not as deep in her heel as she could be, giving her the appearance of being propped up and crouching over her saddle. It appears that she might be coming back to the tack too soon, but it's difficult to tell from this angle, so she gets a bye on that one. She is using a good crest release but the broken wrist is unattractive. It's hard to tell how she is going to land, but I suspect that due to her short stirrup and the angle of her upper body she is going to land slightly topheavy and push herself off of her horse's neck. Again, the angle makes it difficult to critique.

Beezie has an exemplary leg but has jumped up the neck off of a short stirrup, over-closing her hip angle and making it look like she's about to fall on top of her horse's neck although I suspect she feels just fine up there. In a blink, her horse will be fully up in the air, which will open her upper body and make this picture look a whole lot better. She seems to be preparing for a left hand turn, hence the short left rein. When she lands, I suspect she will land slightly out of her heel, but mostly in balance.

Jill has lost her leg. Her stirrup has slipped home in her foot and her toe is pointed towards the ground. She's staying in place thanks to grip in her knee, but it is not a secure position, leading to the hunching in her back as she comes back to the saddle before the horse's back end is fully over the fence. She looks as if she's about to nip him in the mouth a bit. When she lands, she will be in trouble re-establishing her balance.

Jessica looks a whole lot better at first blush than she does when you break down her position. She looks to have excellent depth of heel and weight distribution through her leg, but if you look at her left hip, it has come over the left side of the saddle. This means that it is not possible for her right leg to be in the same position as her left; in order to allow her hips to shift left, her right leg will have slid back. She appears to be coming back to the tack early, but she has not yet unfolded her hip angle and her hand is still forward. Nevertheless, when she lands, she will be in balance with her horse. This is an example of equitation for purpose intended; the absolute ideal position has changed for this jumping course because she needs to make a hard right. If we're judging absolute adherence to the ideal, she gets hit hard. If we're judging functional equitation, she's a lot higher up in the standings.

1. George Morris
2. Brianne Goutal
3. Beezie Madden
4. McLain Ward
5. Jessica Springsteen
6. Jill Henselwood

baymare
Sep. 10, 2009, 07:01 PM
Thank you for posting two of my all-time favorite pictures: Bill Steinkraus on Bold Minstrel looking so harmonious and effortless and yet technically perfect all at the same time (both horse and rider). Am I correct in remembering that Bold Minstrel was one of the only horses to compete at the Olympic level both as an event horse and a Grand Prix jumper?

And the Kathy Kusner puissance in a hackamore-- so amazingly fluid. I think the horse is Aberali, and if my trivia muse has not deserted me entirely, were they not both the stunt doubles in "The Horse in the Grey Flannel Suit"?

Anyone got any photos of Conrad Homfeld/Abdullah and Joe Fargis/Touch of Class at the LA Olympics? Definitely a moment in time when form and function combined to inspire us mere mortals!

Showing my age, but who cares.

Madeline
Sep. 10, 2009, 07:33 PM
Thank you for posting two of my all-time favorite pictures: Bill Steinkraus on Bold Minstrel looking so harmonious and effortless and yet technically perfect all at the same time (both horse and rider). Am I correct in remembering that Bold Minstrel was one of the only horses to compete at the Olympic level both as an event horse and a Grand Prix jumper?

And the Kathy Kusner puissance in a hackamore-- so amazingly fluid. I think the horse is Aberali, and if my trivia muse has not deserted me entirely, were they not both the stunt doubles in "The Horse in the Grey Flannel Suit"?

Anyone got any photos of Conrad Homfeld/Abdullah and Joe Fargis/Touch of Class at the LA Olympics? Definitely a moment in time when form and function combined to inspire us mere mortals!

Showing my age, but who cares.

http://community.webshots.com/user/madelinenr

My albums Lake Placid 1982 and Lake Placid 2 at this site have photos of Abdullah and Touch of Class before they were famous. I believe that LP was TOC's first major win.

Silk
Sep. 10, 2009, 07:41 PM
Absolutely.

Found the kathy Kusner picture i was looking for, which is an automatic release, with a hackamore, over a puissance wall.

http://www.kathykusner.com/

OK...is ther eanything this woman has NOT done? Geeezzz.....to accomplish 1/1000000000 of what she has! Amazing.

RugBug
Sep. 10, 2009, 09:23 PM
Don't be jealous! Her stirrups are not too long; she has a relaxed ankle that allows her heels to sink deep into the stirrup iron. The leg has not slipped at all and is very stable under her body. She is also not over-releasing. The rider has a long torso and is riding a medium pony (Green Pony Hunter). Yes, the rider needs a bit large mount in the pictures, but she is not jumping ahead of the pony.

Pffft. I have to agree with the other poster. Stirrups ARE too long, rider is standing in them to boot. She is ducking in the first photo, but not in the second. She's jumping ahead a bit but probably because her mount looks much too small for her. Her stirrups are also on the very edge of her toe...she needs to get her foot in there a bit more.

Shortening the stirrups to close up her knee angle and push her bottom back, allowing her to keep her chest up, would go a long way for what could be a very stylish rider.

Mac123
Sep. 10, 2009, 10:16 PM
Actually, although I think her stirrup could go up a 1/2 hole or so, I see this as a function as being too deep in the heel resulting in a straightened leg.

The heel should never be stretched to its maximum, regardless of whether it has been placed there as a matter of force or flexibility. All the textbooks agree that a joint flexed to its extreme sacrifices its intended purpose - to maintain elasticity and function as a spring, as a shock absorber.

While stylish with that 'it' factor, the rider's position looks better at first glance than it actually is because of her presence. The heel is too deep and leg too straight. There should be quite a bit of bend in the knee that is almost wholly absent. She is almost standing. Consequently, her rear is too far from the saddle and her upper body is jumped forward. The release is too excessive because the body has fallen forward.

With a big rider on a smaller pony, she needs to be especially careful to maintain more of a "crouched" jumping position that will solidify her base, allowing an open body and more modest appropriate release. Furthermore, doing so will alleviate any extra weight on the front end of a pony, which should always be a concern with a pair that is mismatched in size.

Remember that in correct jumping position, the legs "fold" underneath the rider as the knee and hip joints are compressed with the jumping effort of the horse. As a result, the rider can stretch upwards and allow the arm to follow forward, keeping an open position that allows maximum freedom.
http://www.showjumpinghalloffame.net/inductees/f_chapot.shtml
http://www.horsemagazine.com/ARTICLES/D/De%20Nemethy,%20Bertalan/SJM/SJM.html

If the leg is straight, it is a result of a too long stirrup, a too deep heel, or an inverted or belly-slung jump on the part of the horse or pony.

Lockemeadows, the rider has a lot of potential. But success in the eq or not, she has some positional flaws that deviate quite clearly from the textbooks.

Janet
Sep. 10, 2009, 10:26 PM
Thank you for posting two of my all-time favorite pictures: Bill Steinkraus on Bold Minstrel looking so harmonious and effortless and yet technically perfect all at the same time (both horse and rider). Am I correct in remembering that Bold Minstrel was one of the only horses to compete at the Olympic level both as an event horse and a Grand Prix jumper?
yes


And the Kathy Kusner puissance in a hackamore-- so amazingly fluid. I think the horse is Aberali, ...yes

LockeMeadows
Sep. 11, 2009, 02:59 AM
While stylish with that 'it' factor, the rider's position looks better at first glance than it actually is because of her presence. The heel is too deep and leg too straight. There should be quite a bit of bend in the knee that is almost wholly absent. She is almost standing. Consequently, her rear is too far from the saddle and her upper body is jumped forward. The release is too excessive because the body has fallen forward.


This is a more recent photo of same rider on a large.

Second picture was taken the year before while she still fit the pony a bit better.

The last picture is of the rider in a flat class, so you can see her stirrup length. Her stirrups go up one hole for jumping.

JenEM
Sep. 11, 2009, 03:37 AM
Madeline, who is on the horse in the "Brussels" picture from your Lake Placid photos? That looks like a very nicely executed crest release, IMHO.

I'm very impressed by the Kathy Kusner pics--I'd seen the Aberali one many times, but not many of the others. What a beautiful rider.

BK to some
Sep. 11, 2009, 07:41 AM
This is a more recent photo of same rider on a large.

Second picture was taken the year before while she still fit the pony a bit better.

The last picture is of the rider in a flat class, so you can see her stirrup length. Her stirrups go up one hole for jumping.

So, do you see a difference in these pictures and the first ones you posted? These are certainly better. But its even more important to have good equitation on a pony that is too small for you....
in these pics her hips are back over the seat of the saddle, an improvement. but her lower back is loose and her shoulders have dropped. in the first pic her leg has slipped back. her leg looks good in the second pic but her shoulders are too low. her stirrups look like they are an appropriate length.

BK to some
Sep. 11, 2009, 08:14 AM
Here are some that are not too bad for the lower heights. not perfect though.

http://community.webshots.com/album/574603127engrDl

Renn/aissance
Sep. 11, 2009, 09:15 AM
I normally wouldn't comment since the photo wasn't posted by its owner, but LockeMeadows, while your rider is stylish, her tendency is to jump slightly up the neck and over-close her hip angle, bringing her chest closer to the neck than ideal. The photo of her on the dark pony jumping the red gate is the best one.

We can all learn something from critique.

JET11
Sep. 11, 2009, 12:53 PM
THe perfect picture is of Mclain on Sapphire in this weeks Chronicle winning the Southampton Grand Prix. All Juniors should take notice.

LockeMeadows
Sep. 11, 2009, 01:17 PM
her stirrups look like they are an appropriate length.

I believe the difference between the first two pics and the second set posted was the pony is jumping the hell out of the jumps in the pictures that her leg looks more straight. Instead of the leg getting loose and sliding back, she has allowed it to absorb the shock. It may make the stirrups look too long, but after reviewing countless flat and standing shots, the stirrups were always at an appropriate length.

She does tend to close the hip angle a bit too much, esp if the pony jumps hard.

Mac123
Sep. 11, 2009, 05:40 PM
I believe the difference between the first two pics and the second set posted was the pony is jumping the hell out of the jumps in the pictures that her leg looks more straight. Instead of the leg getting loose and sliding back, she has allowed it to absorb the shock. It may make the stirrups look too long, but after reviewing countless flat and standing shots, the stirrups were always at an appropriate length.

She does tend to close the hip angle a bit too much, esp if the pony jumps hard.

I truly disagree 1000%

Shock absorbers work by compressing. The shocks on a car compress like a spring to absorb the upward concussion. They do not straighten as this would increase the upward force. This is pure physics.

For a rider's leg to absorb shock, it must bend at the knee, not open. Think about it this way. If you are standing in the bed of a pickup truck while it is driving through the field, the only way to keep balance is to bend at the knee and hip and let those joints freely compress with the upward thrust and open from the downward movement. If the leg remains straight or the knee angle opens when the truck bumps upward, one will lose their balance and fall. Or think about a trampoline. If you open your leg as the trampoline pushes up, you're going to sproing right off into space because that increases the upward thrust. RAther to keep low to the trampoline, the leg angles close as the trampoline's surface physically closes the angles of the leg by pushing against the feet.

If the leg is straight, it means that the leg has NOT absorbed the upward thrust but has rather been pushed upward by the horse's thrust, ie., the shock absorbtion isn't working.

I still maintain and am supported by the tons of pictures of correct leg positions over far bigger fences jumped by far better and more athletic jumps posted on this thread that to remain correctly in balance and for that leg to act correctly as a shock absorber, the leg will compress underneath the rider for a powerful jump.

A straight leg is either caused by faulty position on the part of the rider (a too deep heel causing the leg's shock absorbtion to malfunction).

OR, a straight leg is compensation on the part of the rider due to a horse that is not jumping through his back - that on takeoff, he arches away from the rider through the back. The lack of upward thrust - in fact, his back sinks down away from the rider - straightens the leg.

There is correct and there is not correct. Faults are faults, and a fault that replaces another more obvious fault is still not correct.

As to the upper body, in some pictures, the straight leg is forcing a closed upper body for compensation. There is no other option. In the others, where she has kept her leg more correctly underneath herself, the body closure is just muscle memory combined with her base and angles not being quite correct. I bet the ponies would jump even better if she would let them jump up to her instead of throwing her upper body forward to meet them. Upper body control. She may get away with it over such small fences, but any bigger of a fence on a less talented pony and she will cause rails.

Classical position IS and does not change. Read GM, Steinkraus, de Nemethy, they all say that the hip is under the heel, the body is inclined but open away from the neck, and the hands independently follow forward. Or, simply put, the rider would land on their feet if the horse disappeared out from under them. Your rider would topple forward.

I DON'T think she is a bad rider and I am not knocking her in any way. I think she's very talented. I just don't think she is a picture of perfect equitation....but I think you and I just may not agree on what perfect position is. I am a classicist, will always be, and hardly agree with everyone. :winkgrin:

Madeline
Sep. 12, 2009, 10:01 AM
Madeline, who is on the horse in the "Brussels" picture from your Lake Placid photos? That looks like a very nicely executed crest release, IMHO.

I'm very impressed by the Kathy Kusner pics--I'd seen the Aberali one many times, but not many of the others. What a beautiful rider.

I believe that the rider is GM his own self.

Vitriolic
Sep. 12, 2009, 12:21 PM
this is amazing!
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Meadows/7078/jimkohn.jpg

Perfection. Just look like this all the time, and you'll be fine. :D