Matine and Totilas, are Trakehners the answer?

[stolensilver]

I was priviledged to watch Totilas perform his breathtaking dressage to music on Saturday night and saw for myself that he is in a league of his own, the TV pictures just do not show how amazing this horse is. It struck me that the two outstanding horses of recent years, Blue Hors Matine and Totilas are both by Trakehners, Matine is by Silvermoon and Totilas is by Gribaldi. Both Silvermoon and Gribaldi are both by the great Kostolany who is still alive and well and covering mares in Germany.

Gribaldi is Kostolany x Ibikus and Silvermoon is Kostolany x Mahagoni. Do you think crossing Trakehners onto the heavier lines from other studbooks will be the way to produce the dressage horses of tomorrow? Because one thing is for certain, the bar has been raised and the horses that were winning a couple of years ago will not be getting gold medals in the future.

[acottongim]

As a TK breeder I hope so! :-) I do know several Hanno and OLD breeders that actually want some TK blood in their breeding program and will breed to either a TK stallion from time to time, or will buy mares that are pure or half TK.

Both of the above horses are of course excellent examples of why, but there are others as well.

It is funny, about 4 years ago I was at a local dressage barn and the owner said "Trakehners are pretty, but they are no good for dressage. There are no dressage horses that are TKs that are worth anything." Even at that time, I was able to point out several TKs that were either pure or half to show her that she was wrong LOL.

[kkj]

I don't think it is Trakehners per se but just those particular bloodlines- Kostolony, who by the way is by Enrico Caruso. Enrico Caruso made a pretty big dent in the dressage world in terms he produced or his sons and daughters have produced- Gribaldi, Painted Black, Polansky, Kostolony and the amazing thing is he was right here in the US. I think he might have been used more in Europe for breeding than over here. It is tragic the way he died.

The other Trakehner I can think of that has made a strong contribution is Caprimond with sons like Hohenstein etc. I am not super familar with all the Trakehner lines but Kostolony and Caprimond sort of stand out to me.

I have seen a ton of Trakehners that frankly are not good for dressage just like any other warmblood breed. Many Dutch horses, German horses etc are not suited for dressage. What has worked well it seems is crossing those specific Trakhener lines with other Dutch, Danish, Hanoverian what have you.

[cheekyhorse]

To me, as a Trakehner breeder I believe it is the breed that excells in this discipline as a whole, not only through one or two bloodlines.
Although Enrico Caruso did make quite a dent in the dressage breeding world, there are other bloodlines to consider as well. Caprimond yes, is one of them, as is Hohenstein. There is also the Consul line (who brought us the great stallion Imperio) as well as MANY many others.
Where do I begin to point out all of the horses that are in the grand prix dressage today that are full or part Trakehner. The list is endless. :)

[vineyridge]

One Trakehner that I keep running into is Marco Polo. He seems to have been best at getting show jumpers, though. Laura Chapot's Little Big Man is a grandson. He is also the second damsire of Concorde.

And there is a young eventing sire in Germany by Stan The Man whose name is Laurel. He is spectacular.
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10470401

[vtwmbld]

If I understand correctly, Valhalla Farm's former stallion Martini stood 1st or 2nd on the USDF Leading Sire List from 1994 to 2001. I believe that's among ALL breeds.

[Oakstable]

KWPN uses Trakehners quite a bit.

I bought my two Trakehner mares from a Dutch woman who wanted Trakehner mares to use with Dutch stallions.

She liked the consolidated pedigrees of the Trakehner (read linebreeding).

I have quite a few horses and the only one that doesn't contain any Trakehner that I know of is by a B-line Hanoverian stallion. The dam is an JC TB.

[arnika]

Martini was lovely, as was their other stallion, Hailo.

[Oakstable]

I thot I might have one warmblood without Trakehner in his pedigree, but I started looking and he has Semper Idem.

There are probably others too.

His sire is Batido, a GP Hanoverian with a lot of TB though you'd never suspect it.

[risingstarfarm]

I have lots of TK bloodlines in my breeding program. I love how adding TK brings "blood" to a pedigree - and it's sporthorse purpose bred blood (does that make sense?).

Anyway, had a conversation with my dressage trainer today about TKs in dressage and she just smiled - her daughter's personal horses are all by Contucci out of a Martini dam, lol. I'm lucky enough to have the full sister!

[kkj]

I still go back to Enrico Caruso and Caprimond. I know there are others but these are the ones who I seem to find in a lot of dressage pedigrees. Hohenstein comes from Caprimond and the Dutch do use Trakehners a lot but many of the ones they use are somehow related to Enrico Caruso- Kostolony, Polonsky, Painted Black, Gribaldi. I am no expert on Trakehners or their bloodlines but I have noticed that trend.

[kkj]

Oh and I forgot about Contucci but he is a Caprimond too.

[stoicfish]

Just watched the video -WOW!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZhtiCqBAGM

[baywithchrome2]

I would love to see a picture of Totilas' dam, Lominka. From the comments made by his breeder, she is a smaller (just 1.63m), compact mare with powerful movements. And interestingly, by breeding to Gribaldi, his breeder did not add blood, but rather reduced it (Gribaldi himself being just 27.9% blood).

[acottongim]

I still go back to Enrico Caruso and Caprimond. I know there are others but these are the ones who I seem to find in a lot of dressage pedigrees. Hohenstein comes from Caprimond and the Dutch do use Trakehners a lot but many of the ones they use are somehow related to Enrico Caruso- Kostolony, Polonsky, Painted Black, Gribaldi. I am no expert on Trakehners or their bloodlines but I have noticed that trend.


Yes, Enrico Caruso is an excellent dressage producer, as is Caprimond... there ARE others though. Think Oskar - even better if he isn't proven enough for you (since only he has gone GP, his oldest offspring are just now really getting started under saddle), think his sire Hockey or another HOckey grandson Biotop (Hockey was the damsire).

Here in the US, Hailo not only went GP himself he has offspring going upper levels in dressage (as well as other disciplines).

Flanuer which produced Arogno and Avignon are also good dressage producers...

Trakehners have long been used as "improver" blood - not so much that they have Arab or T'bred in them but as a breed they tend to be lighter than the "typical" warmblood.

There are good and bad in any breed and there are lines that are better at one thing or the other (as in any breed) but trust me, Enrico Caruso was not the only TK bloodline that produces dressage horses.

[NoDQhere]

Some of us have been using Trakehners for years ;). They are smart, forward, people horses and for the most part easy. But they do have a gas pedal and they are supple with movement, something that "can" be intimidating until you are used to it.

The anti Trakehner thing seems to be more American than anything else. They are used a lot in just about all the European Stud Books. When we went shopping for a young Trakehner stallion prospect in Germany we found out that they were highly regarded! We ended up with a branded Hanoverian but he is about 85% Trakehner.

IMO the Trakehner is the way to add refinement, rideability, soundness and "spark" without getting issues.

[Dune]

I love the idea of using Trakehners, I really do. HOWever, most of the Trakehners I have seen don't have the type of movement that Totilas does. (although, really, who does right?):lol: While I love the type (in general) a good Trak brings to the table, a lot that I've seen have had more of the flatter, daisy cutter way of moving. :confused:

[sniplover]

Judy Yancey just posted an interesting Trakehner, Grafenstolz (http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10469327), this past week.

Excerpts from her website;
"His sire Polarion is highly succesful both in breeding and the sport. As a seven year old, he had already won advanced (S) level DRESSAGE competitions and became the 2000 National Trakehner Champion at the show in Cologne. Meanwhile he is successful with Markus Gribbe in World Cup Freestyles.
Grafenstolz was awarded a premium at the 2000 Trakehner licensing in Neumünster as a two year old. He proved his versatile talents right from the very beginning on the sport, as a five year old winning several 1.25m level tests for showjumpers as well as medium dressage. As a six year old he made German breeding history by becoming the first horse ever to qualify for the finals of the Jumping, dressage, and Eventing in the same year. He went on to win the eventing with an average score of 9.7 out of ten. This was followed later in the same year by him winning the World Championship for young event horses in Le Lion d'Angers, France.
In 2005 as a seven year old he won his first advanced level event competition. In 2006, as an 8 year old he won the bronze medal at the German Championships in Schenefeld, then placed in two international three star competitions and won three international two star competitions. In November 2006 he received Trakehner Horse of the Year award given by the Trakehner Verband. In 2007 and 2008 he won at Compiegne. In 2007 he competed in a puissance class and cleared 2 metres or just under seven feet.
He is a wonderful example of what Trakehners are SUPPOSED to be - typey, athletic, versatile. I think he should be an excellent improvement sire, finding success in both hunter/jumper breeding programs as well as dressage.
With an average score of 8.2 for his first crop, he ranked number one of all stallions in Baden-Württemberg. The Baden-Württemberg Verband awarded him a premium as a young stallion. His oldest offspring are now seven, he has already had a German Vice Champion, and this year Vincent and Gin Tonic will go to the World Championships at Le Lion d’Angers.
Grafenstolz is a beautiful stallion and should add movement, rideability and scope."

[Holly Jeanne]

I don't think it is Trakehners per se but just those particular bloodlines- Kostolony, who by the way is by Enrico Caruso.

And Kostolany's dam sire was Falke. Darn I wish I could have gotten my Falke daughter to carry to term! :(

Sigh. I went the other way and bred a TB to a Trak stallion with Consul in his lines.

Others have already mentioned quite a few successful Trakehner dressage stallions. I'll just second that there are others out there.

[vineyridge]

Grafenstolz, who seems to be licensed by every single registry, is in Michael Jung's event horse string, as is a Grafenstolz son named Vincent. In case you guys don't know, Michael Jung is the new European champion event rider with his horse Sam by Stan The Man. Grafenstolz is one of the real up and comers on the European eventing scene; his record is very good, although equestrian database.com doesn't show him with a 4* yet OR a competition in 2009. He was 3rd in a 3* in 2008 though, but might have maxed out at that level. His other 3*s are 12th and 19th.

[stolensilver]

Grafenstolz was shortlisted for the German Olympic team in eventing but unfortunately got injured. He's since been sold to a consortium and is currently standing in the UK. He is now being trained as a dressage horse. He is the only horse ever to have got through to the finals of the Bundeschampionat in all 3 disciplines: eventing which he won with an amazing 96%, dressage and showjumping so he really does move and jump.

[Maren]

Some food for thought - a short run-through of pediress with regards to Trakehner influence in the pedigrees of the Europchamp horses. Also, some good TB stuff here for those that still think they're "useless" these days ;-))

http://www.trakehners-international.com/scene_EuroChamps09.html

[Shawnda N]

Excellent article Maren !

[vineyridge]

Thanks for the article, Maren. What is so thrilling to me is that Relic, a US bred TB, has made such a tremendous impact on WB breeding. Matchem genes have proved themselves in Europe with him and with Furioso especially.

[Oakstable]

Maren
So why do you think the KWPN embraced the Trakehners like they did?

Doruto is an interesting example.

[stoicfish]

Maren
So why do you think the KWPN embraced the Trakehners like they did?

Doruto is an interesting example.

The Hans too!

[Maren]

Thanks for the comments.

Vineyridge, I'm right there with you.

Oakstable, that is a tough question and maybe one better asked to a Dutch breeder. But I would think two major factors come into play. For one, there was clearly less bias and prejudice towards Trakehner in the early "rebreeding" phase in the Netherlands as opposed to Germany. And second, I think that many Dutch breeders see the Trakehner as the "better" source of refinement even though horses like Gribaldi hardly qualify as a refiner in the sense of blood content. However, the genetic background of the Trakehner is more Anglo than warmblood and when crossed back to that same type of blood (see Totilas or Matine with Trakehner blood in their warmblood dams), you're more likely to breed that certain phenotype - a lighter horse that is still powerful and athletic. Especially stallions like Micheloangelo and yes, also Doruto, who carried a good dose of the right TB really up close, were far less of a gamble for breeders that were seeking to refine without compromising the substance of their mare lines too much, or breeding that dreaded F1 that is neither fish nor meat (altough personally, I don't believe much in the F1 scare with TBs - I have run into so many "scary" full warmblood F1s from famous parents that I really couldn't care less).

The point is to keep that infusion of TB/Arab and also Trakehner in the pedigrees, because proof is out enough to say it's important, if not essential, for a top class athlete. Turning away from breeding horses like Potomac (just imagine he was a mare!!) will eventually be the downfall of sport horse breeding (IMHO). We're dealing with hybrids here - Trakehners, TBs and most Arabs offer the unique opportunity to breed to something less hybrid and more consolidated and that is why they appeal to many breeders. Or maybe it truly is only Gribaldi's shiny black coat that did the magic ..... ;-)

I think there is also a lot more to the contribution of Trakehners than just adding "type". I hear that a lot - "oh he added the beauty, but all the movement and athleticism comes from the mare anyway". That's not how it works. Really not. There's a lot more to the equation than just adding looks with a Trakehner and all the sport value comes from the bottom line ...

And with the mix of euqally potent jumper blood and dressage blood in pretty much all these horses I think that a lot of modern breeders nee to rethink their approach of "picking a discipline and breeding for it". The best sport horses (especially in dressage) in the world carry a good dose of jumper blood that also more than often is of Holsteiner (and hence TB) origin. Definitely food for thought.

[Sacha]

great thread Stolensilver :)

Trakehners are the foundation of my breeding program, and I loved watching the Europena Champs recently and seing hiw much Trakehner blood was up close in so mnay horses. And I am watching the Bundeschampionate as I write this and am watching a Hanvoerian by Hofrat as I type this!
Here in the Uk there has long been a massive predujudice against Trakehenrs, being a myth that they are all crazy and hot. Yes everyone who comes to see my herd remarks on their super attitudes.

I love the consolidation you get in the breed, and think they can add so much to other sporthorse breeding programs.

[CapitolDesign]

The January issue of Dressage Today has a 6-page article on breeding Totilas, with photos of his dam and sire. Very interesting interviews from the breeders about why they picked the combination for the dam's dam and sire, as well as both parents for Toto.

[Kyzteke]

Some of us have been using Trakehners for years ;). They are smart, forward, people horses and for the most part easy. But they do have a gas pedal and they are supple with movement, something that "can" be intimidating until you are used to it.

The anti Trakehner thing seems to be more American than anything else. They are used a lot in just about all the European Stud Books. When we went shopping for a young Trakehner stallion prospect in Germany we found out that they were highly regarded! We ended up with a branded Hanoverian but he is about 85% Trakehner.


This.

Seriously, it seems like both the Hanoverian and Oldenburg breeders in Germany (the lines I know the best) have been using Trakes for YEARS to refine and add "spark". Seems like they are using them to add blood and prefer them to straight TBs.

I remember Enrico Caruso -- seeing his ads back before I even had a WB mare. I SO wanted to breed to him, but never did. I regret it all the time.

I guess I just couldn't imagine a horse of that quality being here in the US...shame on me for missing the boat on that one....

[ammy-ville]

I have a comment re Trak's and a question re that stallions movement.

I've had some Trak's of more obscure bloodlines and they were both highly supple, intelligent, and very uphill. Very different breeding and different physically. Both were almost too smart, you really saw that Arab type intelligence where you couldn't let them get too bored with you :) I 'think' perhaps many Americans turned to warmbloods from TB's to get something easier to ride. I don't know, IME, that Trak's are 'easy' like a real old fashioned heavy lazy warmblood. I think they have been for a long time, more like the warmbloods they are breeding now, more brillant, and lighter and also maybe a wee bit more complicated to ride. All this is just an idea about why maybe Trak's didn't take off in America quite as strongly as the other breeds... anyway, it's all perspective and the individual Trak's I came in touch with.

My question about stallions like Totilas is their absolutely extreme movement. Is there going to come a point where dressage horses are so specifically bred that they are like saddle seat horses? One way of going that doesn't always mess well with other forms of sport?

Totilas has a lovely expressive piaffe and passage, and has excellent articulation, but I actually didn't care for his extended gaits... they were flashy but did not embody the powerful foward motion... anyway, that is just personal perference, obviously the judges know more than I do and I wasn't there in person! But is there going to be 'dressage' bred divisions of warmblood books at some point because of the extreme movement required, or am I just seeing something different in that movement?