Warmblood or TB Stallions for a heavy mare?

[Mkelle11]

I'm new to this forum...So if I make any mistakes, feel free to tell me so!

So we are thinking of breeding one of our mares. She's an approved Trakhener by Adler(http://www.americantrakehner.com/stallions/Inactive/adler2.asp) and out of Lakritze who's out of Lilofee IV and by Mikado (http://www.americantrakehner.com/Stallions/inactive/Mikado.asp).

She's about 16.1 - 16.2, has a great (Great!) mind and nice movement (Though not spectacular), and easily jumps 3' though she was never trained for it.

She's rather heavy though. The foal would ideally be an Eventer. We would be looking for a finer stallion with a typier head (Her head is rather coarse), and nice leg conformation. He should have nice movement (Which rules out many Abdullah sons) but be able to jump well.

Ideally we would like to stick to Trekhaner stallions, but would be willing to cross with other Warmblood breeds and TBs. We are in the Northern US, and although we don't need live cover that would rule out the UK.

So, anyone know of any stallions? Most of the ones we have looked at are either really heavy, can't jump, out of our price range ($1,200 -ish), or I can't find breeding information on them. (Special Memories, for instance)
Thanks!:)

[TrueColours]

Welcome to the board and happy stallion shopping! :)

We've crossed my cremello TB stallion - Guaranteed Gold - on some Trakehner mares and their owners loved the foals enough to repeat the cross again! :)

They can be seen at:

http://atrakehner.com/italiadorata.html

and:

http://atrakehner.com/tangodor.html

I know one of her mares in particular was very much a larger, old style mare (and you can see pictures of both mares as well on her website) and she was thrilled with the more refined results of the cross

Guaranteed Gold evented as well and if you click on his link:

http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/GG.html

you can see photo's of him and his offspring out of a wide variety of mares

Good luck! :)

[nsm]

Welcome!
You might want to consider Ironrule, he is half WB and half TB. Very typy with a beautiful head. He has a page on the Ironman site with 2 short jumping videos.

Nancy

[Oakstable]

How about a son of Enrico Caruso?

A friend of mine breeds for eventers and she has a stallion share she is not using.

oakstable@aol.com

[paintjumper]

He is unbelievable. I am breeding my 16.2 hand APHA mare to him next year. He has a beautiful head, heck he is beautiful all over. He is in Panama City Fla at Aqua Farms. His owner is really nice. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMR1tN1K9m4
Take a look and I think you will be sold! I was. He's a big boy, I think 17.1 or so.
www.aquafarms.net/

[siegi b.]

I agree with Oakstable and would also consider Tzigane as a possible match.

Good luck in your search!

P.S.: I may even be tempted to part with some Veneziano semen for your mare.... :)

[Go Fish]

A Fine Romance (TB). He evented and has produced eventers. For that matter, he's an all-round sire. I think he's in Ontario, CN and I believe his owner ships. Do a search on this board...you'll find nothing but positive comments on this horse, his offspring, and his owner.

I'm not a TB fan, but I LOVE this horse. In my opinion, if you want to add TB, it belongs on top.

Good luck.

[Coppers mom]

What about an Arab? Windfall has quite a bit of Arabian in him, and they would help refine the mare.

Other than that, I agree with A Fine Romance. Yum!

[cheekyhorse]

Pacific would be ideal for a mare such as this. ;) He is event type...

[JER]

You might take a look at Stiletto (http://www.valhallatrakehner.com/stall.htm) (scroll down), a Trakehner stallion who's currently competing at the CCI** level. He's also done FEI dressage and level 6 jumpers.

(He's by Martini, out of an Abdullah mare, but he's obviously got good movement and his versatility would indicate the good brain and work ethic of the Martini family.)

[horsechica58]

I would also take a look at Worthy Opponent. He is a Waikiki son who I believe is being geared towards eventing. He has a predominantly dressage pedigree but has a great jump as well.

http://www.vineyardeventing.com/WorthyOpp/photos.html

[grayfox]

Fine Romance.

[Mkelle11]

Wow! Thanks for all the feedback- It's alot to look through! Some stallions, like Pacific and Stiletto, I'd heard of, but many (Like most of the TBs and TB crosses) I had not! So this was great- I'll definately be looking into these. Thanks everyone!

[Dressage_Diva333]

A Fine Romance :) I think he stood and Hilltop (?) for a number of years, which is an honor for an outside stallion to stand there. There is also a Secretariat son that I like... his name is Inkeeper, I'm not even sure if he's still breeding, but he has always been a favorite TB stallion of mine.

If I were you, I'd stick with a TB, or a half TB if she's a bit heavy in type. Worthy Opponent would likely be too heavy, I've seen him several times and a few of his foals... I wouldn't breed him to a heavy mare if your looking for refinement.

Ironrule might be an interesting idea, I've never seen a video of him, but Ironman has got a SUPER jump... and I believe the dam is rather nice too, you'd probably get some refinement from him :)

[sixpoundfarm]

If you are interested in Special Memories, I would encourage you to call Dorothy, she is a very nice woman, but I think its safe to say that email and internet is not the best means to get a hold of her. SM had very good semen, he is collected by Select Breeders services, and Dorothy was very good to work with.

I think I also read on here that there is Frozen semen from the deceased TB stallion Heriocity coming over, he might be one to consider for your mare too.

It also looks like Grafenstolz will be available here next year too.

[rcloisonne]

Welcome!
You might want to consider Ironrule, he is half WB and half TB. Very typy with a beautiful head. He has a page on the Ironman site with 2 short jumping videos.
He has to be one of the most gorgeous stallions I've ever seen! WOW! I'm in loff! :)

[subk]

IThe foal would ideally be an Eventer.
I'm not a breeder, but I like to buy young prospects and bring them along for eventing.

If you look at what horses are successful in eventing you will see that at the upper levels most horses are at least 3/4 TB. Sure there are some with less TB blood but they are the exception not the rule. If your sights are set on the lower levels you can get away with less TB blood, but I still wouldn't specifically "breed an event horse" that wasn't at least 1/2 TB. Yeah it's done, but for myself I'd rather put my time in a more proven cross and wouldn't be interested in buying a less than 1/2 TB.

So considering what a small amount of TB blood is in her WB pedigree, if it were me, I'd find a full TB sire.

[serenityfarm]

Equinox is a modern warmblood stallion with some TB in the bottom of his pedigree. Also, we will be doing a buy 1 breeding get 1 breeding free to bookings prior to spring of 2010 as well. See him on the Equinox page of www.serenityfarmsinc.com or on the BWP web site (stallions). He is approved BWP.

[cyriz's mom]

Sea Accounts evented through Preliminary and is currently competing at 3rd level dressage. In fact, he scored a 61.6% in his first 3rd 3 test this past weekend. We hope to move him to 4th at the end of the year with sights on PSG by the end of next year.

He is actually a better jumper/eventer than dressage, but circumstances right now have him in the dressage ring and doing things very few TB stallions ever had.

You cannot beat his temperament and mind. We met a lady at the show who has two stallions and had been considering Cyriz for one of her mares. She was very excited to get to meet him in person. The trainer rode him bareback over to where the lady was. She could not get over his temperament. We went from talking about one of her mares to four of her mares. As we headed back to the stabling she commented, "he really is the full package." Needless to say, I think he is, but boy was it nice to hear another stallion owner thought so!

[Oakstable]

Special Memories would be good. Wait, he's Abdullah, right?

There is another Ango-Trak stallion, Schneekonig who was ridden by Inge Klimke.

He is in California.

Whatever you decide, be aware of your registration possibilities.

[TrueColours]

Whatever you decide, be aware of your registration possibilities.

When Ingrid bred her mares to Guaranteed Gold, I specifically asked her this question. What are the registration possibilities with registered, non Trakehner approved, TB stallions, and this was her response to me:


OK, I talked to the ATA guy and also reviewed our regulations.

We had a pilot program for several years under which purebred TB and Arab stallions could be inspected and approved for breeding to purebred mares. That program never extended eligibility to TB-Trakehner or Arab-Trakehner crosses; only purebred stallions, such as Guaranteed Gold, were eligible.

A few years ago we voted to discontinue the pilot program, essentially making the program "permanent." Here is a copy of the explanation for that program under which TB and Arab stallions can be inspected and approved. It may be somewhat outdated; for example, now the minimum score for a stallion is 60 instead of 58 (out of a possible 10 in each of 8 scoring categories). But it is the general tune.

http://www.americantrakehner.com/faqs/FAQsPilotProgramStallions.htm

Historically, we have had very few applicants for this. The criteria are pretty tough (particularly performance record) and the market for ATA mares is pretty tight, so I think that discourages most owners of TB and Arab stallions. But the get of approved stallions (TB stallions Musing, Cloned Steel, Ambassador in Love, maybe another...and Arab stallions Aul Magic, Al Marah Quebec, Taez, and maybe another) out of unrestricted ATA Studbook (OSB) mares are eligible for registration in the Official Registry Book, and then for entry into the Official Stud Book upon inspection.

But now and as ever,

A colt

- by a Jockey Club stallion that has not been presented and approved by the ATA, and

- out of an ATA mare (regardless of the book of her registry--registration book or stud book)

is not eligible under the pilot program or our regulations and is not eligible for the Official Stud Book.

Such a colt would be registrable only under the ATA Appendix Book Section (B) (if the dam is an ATA Stud Book mare--OSB) or Section (D) (if the dam is an ATA registry book mare--ORB). In neither case is a colt eligible for transfer to the Official Stud Book.

This is precisely the situation that Tango is in--his sire is unapproved, though his dam is OSB, so he is not eligible for approval on his own right (under the pilot program) and is not eligible to move up from his current registration status, in the Official Appendix Book (B)

The outcome is different for fillies. A filly by a Jockey Club stallion out of an ATA OSB mare is registrable in the Official Appendix Book (B), and from there, fillies (but not colts) can move into the Preliminary Stud Book upon inspection. So that will be Dory's path.


Hope that helps. Clear as mud, eh?

[allanglos]

She's rather heavy though. The foal would ideally be an Eventer. We would be looking for a finer stallion with a typier head (Her head is rather coarse), and nice leg conformation. He should have nice movement (Which rules out many Abdullah sons) but be able to jump well.

Thanks!:)


Sounds like you want an Anglo Arabian.

[ponygirl]

You might take a look at Stiletto (http://www.valhallatrakehner.com/stall.htm) (scroll down), a Trakehner stallion who's currently competing at the CCI** level. He's also done FEI dressage and level 6 jumpers.

(He's by Martini, out of an Abdullah mare, but he's obviously got good movement and his versatility would indicate the good brain and work ethic of the Martini family.)

I have to agree here as well. I've seen Stiletto many times and he's wonderful to watch. Lovely disposition as well.

[twistoffate]

I second or third Sea Accounts and A Fine Romance for TB's, my guy is also available for now... Can't go wrong with Twist lines for jumping and his temperament is to die for! :)

Happy stallion hunting! There are a lot of nice ones out there!

[nsm]

Another picture of Ironrule.....

Nancy

[JWB]

Have you looked at Windfall and Coconut Grove??? Coconut Grove is a really nice TB that is approved by tons of the WB registries. I'm sure you know all about Windfall if you're into eventing.

CG is already approved for ATA breeding.
http://www.octoberhill.com/stallions_details.php?stallion_id=18

[Darko]

Hey,

Check out Adonis, he is approved Han. but i am pretty sure he has some Trak in him. Really nice jumping lines, but he went the dressage route. Very refined and awesome movement. He is standing at Woods Lane Farm.

[Oakstable]

Rubinesque is a 17H Anglo-Trakener stallion, approved ATA and Oldenburg.

He stands in Colorado.

Intriguing stallion.

[Joie]

Have you looked at Windfall and Coconut Grove??? Coconut Grove is a really nice TB that is approved by tons of the WB registries. I'm sure you know all about Windfall if you're into eventing.

CG is already approved for ATA breeding.
http://www.octoberhill.com/stallions_details.php?stallion_id=18

Coconut Grove is not approved for Trakehners, as far as I am aware. Definately not with the US, and although the website says that he's approved in Europe for TRAK, I cannot confirm (maybe because I'm a moron). Anyone??

[toomanyponies]

Noble Houston? TB -or too huntery for you?

[diva4ever]

You can't go wrong with Ironrule...his first crop will be on the ground next year and I can't wait!!! I am in love with Ironman and Rule is becoming his dad more and more everyday. He will be amazing in the showring in the future, with the movement and grace of a hunter, which he gets from both his mom and dad, but the scope and jump anything attitude of a jumper.

[JER]

You can't go wrong with Ironrule...his first crop will be on the ground next year and I can't wait!!!

Uh, say what?

Have you ever heard of the science of genetics?

No one -- you, the stallion owner, nor anybody else -- knows if you can or can't go wrong with Ironrule, for the simple reason that he doesn't have a crop on the ground.

When you choose a stallion for breeding purposes, you can make an educated choice knowing what a stallion produces or you can take a chance on an unproven entity. Ironrule -- and ALL first-year sires -- are unproven entities in terms of breeding.

Carry on. Perhaps there'll be some good advice mixed in among the breed-to-my-stallion posts. :)

[JWB]

My mistake on Coconut Grove- Your right. It says TRAK but not ATA. Also she mentioned looking in the $1200 range. At $1600 he's a bit more expensive than what she's looking for. Just the same, he's an awesome stallion but I know it's a pain to mess horses that may or may not be approved.

[Schiffon]

I'd first like to encourage you in your inclination to stay with a Trakehner if possible. It is such a small, valuable, breed and its a pity when they are continually outcrossed. I understand why they are, because they cross wonderfully with other WBs. I'm going to try to suggest some and address your criteria if possible:

Sixtus definately is a performance horse producer, Grafenstolz excells at eventing and dressage but is young and Tzigane is a great jumper. Not sure if they fit in your price range. All have decriptions and frozen semen available at:

http://www.trak-sires-international.com/ (click on English)

If you want to see pics/video on Special Memories, go to the same site and click on German although Maren of Trakehner Sires is his agent only in Europe and you would get US semen through the owner I think. He hasn't had many foals as of yet, but I've seen one SM foal who was a really good mover and there was a foal in Germany this year who won the big northern Germany Trakehner foal show, so he may be a better movement producer than other Abdullahs. Last year was the first that his frozen was available in Germany and it was used quite a bit and was successful. And you couldn't ask for a better TB dam for jumping than Kluwall.

A good hunter producer with the same dam line as Abdullah is Asher and he is in your price range. Not sure if he would meet your movement and refinement needs or if he has the drive for an eventer though.

Unfortunately, Windfall is out of your price range. He would be a good match, with a typey head and being 1/2 TB. Enrico Caruso blood up close will often not produce a typey head or lighter frame. And I agree with subk that more TB is important is important for the highest levels of eventing if that is what you are going for. Even though there are many WBs winning, most have a lot of TB (like some "Hanoverians" that are 7/8 TB). Unfortunately, there aren't that many ATA stallions with TB anywhere in the first 3 generations.

Which brings me to my stallion, Schiffon. He is 1/4 TB, by a successful dressage TB in Europe, Mago xx. Although mostly a dressage sire, he does produce good jumpers, a few of which you can see here
http://mysite.verizon.net/resxgr86/glamorganmanorinc/id4.html
One of his licensed stallion son is being developed by an eventing stable:
http://www.trakehner-pferde.com/herzglanz.html
I don't know that Schiffon would produce a 3 star eventer but a fun, sweet, athletic, middle-level eventer, that's likely.

Schiffon reliably passes on a beautiful head, elastic movement, and refinement. And he is in your price range because I prefer to keep the price reasonable in order to get a larger number of foals on the ground in the US, establishing his value as a sire, and maintaining the quality of his book by reviewing the mares myself rather than assuming he will get the better mares if his stud fee is high. His credentials are on par or better than many $1500+ stallions. His cooled semen is very fertile. Please visit our website if you'd like to see more or contact me. www.glamorganmanor.com.

Regards,
Lea Ann Hansen

[Oakstable]

Titulus?

I agree with Lea Ann on sticking with a Trakehner stallion for the reasons she listed.

Kovington is homozygous black. He is 16.1h. I have a breeding I haven't used.