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Sonesta
Aug. 29, 2009, 06:55 PM
wow!

siegi b.
Aug. 29, 2009, 07:17 PM
I do think the new 90 is the old 80...... What's your opinion?

alicen
Aug. 29, 2009, 07:27 PM
Well, I don't know because I didn't get to see the rides because FEItv repeatedly denied me access to a day pass. Grrrrrr.

Tomw
Aug. 29, 2009, 08:11 PM
if only Totilas had a decent walk he might get a decent score :lol:

Coreene
Aug. 29, 2009, 08:17 PM
Sonesta, how great that you were there to see it!!!

JLR1
Aug. 29, 2009, 08:21 PM
Wow! Amazing score.

dwblover
Aug. 29, 2009, 08:28 PM
I can't believe it!

mbm
Aug. 29, 2009, 08:39 PM
wow. what are they going to do in a year when he is stronger? give him 110%?

and now that i have seen the vid... all i can say is:not my cup of tea, and if that is what the future of top dressage is - it isnt something i will aspire too.

and before anyone lambasts me - yeah yeah, the horse is talented.... but the manner in which he is ridden just leaves me cold. honest to god it is (1970s) park horse doing dressage. how sad.

:(

eta: i guess the meaning of "dressage" has changed - i prefer horse going how they did 15 + years ago where the horse had more freedom, more usage of their neck, more harmony, where it looked more like a partnership and a dance rather than a horse crammed together and being forced to do as its rider demands. (please see rides from Klimke, et al)

The feel is just so different - so many rides of the past would leave me in tears from joy - now i watch many of these rides and want to cry for what we have lost and how cold and hard and pumped it all looks and feels.

eXtrmeStreSSage all the way.

ok, i am done - i will go crawl back under my rock.

Sonesta
Aug. 29, 2009, 08:45 PM
As those of you who know me will readily attest, I am not easily impressed. That horse is freaking amazing. When he enters the ring you hear the crowd colletively catch their breath.

For those thinking he is some sort of flamboyant leg mover with no use of his back (as some of his photos imply) let me set you straight. He moves completely through up and over his back. He just actually DOES have that much freedom and movement in his hocks and shoulders. And he seems happy and pleasant and workmanlike. Not tense and stressed like Salinero.

I was blown away and thrilled to have been there.

Parzival is also a treat to watch. But the horse that got my vote as the horse I think I would most like to ride was the last to go tonight. Victoria Max-Theurer's horse Augustin. Was a lovely animal.

I took tons of pictures, but don't have a way to upload them now. Will be home Tuesday and will upload some then if anyone is interested.

Coreene, I got you a very dark navy blue (almost black) cap from the games. The only other option was very hot pink. You just don't seem like a pink kinda girl to me.

warmbloodguy
Aug. 29, 2009, 08:47 PM
I agree that he looks like a Park Horse doing Dressage. I do not like watching him and I do not like the manner in which he is ridden. But that is just my humble opinion.

However, I do applaud the team for how well they are doing. I am glad that the judges like them enough to give out these record scores.

I hope they do keep doing well, and I am sure he is quite happy with his mount.

Sonesta
Aug. 29, 2009, 08:53 PM
Hey, I have been around park horses for years. He is NOTHING like a park horse. He uses his body correctly for dressage. It is just over the top in movement. It is almost freaky. A friend two days ago said he must be bionic!

spotted mustang
Aug. 29, 2009, 08:53 PM
is there any place on the web where one can watch the rides? Could anyone post a link? Otherwise, I gotta wait for the DVD to come out, if they'll even sell it in the US (sigh..)

mbm
Aug. 29, 2009, 08:55 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZhtiCqBAGM

totilas

(and i said 1970s park.... not the park of today..)

eta again to say..... whether or not he uses his body correctly - he is held extremely tight in the neck, he is not in any way shape or form reaching for the bit, he is tense, and for his record breaking scores there are a lot of basic issues like swinging hind quarters, landing with both hind legs at eh same time in the changes etc etc.

i will give him the CPs - those are impressive.

i have this weird voice in my head saying: it is all planned - it was time for AVG to retire and they wanted to popularize dressage (ie make more money) so they thought it would be good to have horses breaking scores all over the place and have new riders who more (younger) might identify with ..... plus riders that dont have a ton of $$ etc.

it all plays just too perfectly for my taste :) (yeah, i am more than a tad jaded)

k, now i am really done :)

claire
Aug. 29, 2009, 08:56 PM
Totilas Kur:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZhtiCqBAGM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZhtiCqBAGM)

Edgar
Aug. 29, 2009, 09:07 PM
Well just fr5eeking amazing it is and fun to stand in a sea of orange today amongst fellow crazy Dutchman..... I do not know if he deserved a record 29 10's but he deserved a top score :) The most unusual thing I have seen in dressage, maybe ever.JMHO.
Sonesta are you watching the jumping tomorrow?
visit us on the covered side in block 22 E19and 20

canyonoak
Aug. 29, 2009, 09:08 PM
I bit the bullet and gave the FEI some $$ ($ US 15.99) for a day pass for the livestream on FEItv.org..and watched most of the kur rides.

Watching Totilas just gave me chills...the horse is so loose in the body, so strong and clear in the mind, and Edward Gal such a lovely rider...collect/extend/effortless, pirouettes in a wonderful tempo maintained before and after, pure canter beat, and just truly unbelievable piaffe, passage AND transitions. ANd of course, the floppy-eared walk out of the arena, accepting the applause as his due.

Yes: another year, and this young horse will be stronger and then the trot extensions will match (hopefully) the work named above. If there had been no error in the changes today, the score would have been closer to 93,and every single point well-earned.

Parzival was also quite amazing, it is easily the best I have seen Adelinde Cornelissen ride, but she is (not yet) anywhere near the experience of Edward Gal--or Anky.
Nevertheless, Parzival is possessed of enormous charm and physical ability,and her new music and harder choreography were a good showcase.

For me, ANky today gave a masterclass in what training can and will accomplish, under optimal circumstances.

(And saying that sentence will of course polarize everyone, but honestly--this was stated by the judges, so blame everyone else,not just me).

ANd there were great moments in other rides as well: Susanne Lebek on the wonderfully elegant firebreathing Potomac, her stallion that is about 50% TB blood--the most gorgeous changes and some extremely high quality work, I think the best maybe the horse has ever gone.

Augustin and Vici Max-Theurer--she is so young and yet such an old horseman's ride she gave this incredible horse! She gave him the ride he needed--steady, convincing, gaining his trust with every aid, and she finished in 5th, without really going for max!!

anyway, well worth the $16...

adding: on one of these threads, someone said that I am a "know-it-all"...and let me be the first to point out where I was wrong:

I said a while ago that Totilas would not have the really wonderful big walk that some of the other horses have (Mistral Hojris, Sterntaler).

Well, I was wrong. Toto has EVERYTHING!!!! and got scores today from the judges for all the gaits.

<g>

Ambrey
Aug. 29, 2009, 09:08 PM
Wow, that was lovely. Thank you for posting the video!

Sonesta
Aug. 29, 2009, 09:08 PM
He did have a mistake in the tempis. Imagine what his score might have been without them. And from my seat, I was not seeing much tension - concentration, yes. And lots of exertion as one would expect from such work. But I wasn't seeing negative tension (i.e. stress or resistance).

spotted mustang
Aug. 29, 2009, 09:13 PM
thanks for the link - just watched. Lovely hoss, awsome. I'm not expert enough to get smart-alecki on scoring etc, but what's with that extended trot? It looked all out there in front, but was he barely tracking up behind?

Even so, awesome. I bet people will now run down the barn for his semen (Totilas', not Edward's - although maybe both?!)

Sonesta
Aug. 29, 2009, 09:13 PM
Edgar, wish I'd known you were here. Were you one of the weirdos in all the orange costumes? Just kidding. I've been there every day all day and into the night. I'm taking tomorrow off and resting up for the trip home.

Hey, I though Lantinus would be competing. What happened?

Sonesta
Aug. 29, 2009, 09:16 PM
ok got to go to bed now. it is 1:15 am here. night all.

Puddin Pie
Aug. 29, 2009, 09:20 PM
Wow-And I have ridden some big trotting park horses ions ago-no way I could have ever sat their trots. I got chills watching this.

Edgar
Aug. 29, 2009, 09:27 PM
Sorry to have missed you Rebecca, will be there tomorrow, flying to Amsterdam Monday. Lantinus has a small injury but they did not want to risk it. He is in the program and on the back of the shirts they are selling but we missed seeing him. Visiting him in Munster Tuesday.... Tonight was fun though.

Daatje
Aug. 29, 2009, 09:31 PM
W. O. W.

That horse is NOTHING like a park horse, from any decade. He is nothing short of incredible. Wow.

Amazing, simply amazing!

Coreene
Aug. 29, 2009, 09:40 PM
Rebecca, bedankt! You are a star, let me know what I owe you. And thank you so much for not getting pink. Can't wait to see your photos!

Dressage Art
Aug. 29, 2009, 10:22 PM
For those thinking he is some sort of flamboyant leg mover with no use of his back (as some of his photos imply) let me set you straight. He moves completely through up and over his back. He just actually DOES have that much freedom and movement in his hocks and shoulders. And he seems happy and pleasant and workmanlike. Not tense and stressed like Salinero.

Then he truly deserves the high marks and I'm so happy to see judges using the range of the scores!!!!! and lucky, lucky you to see that historical performance!

Mike Matson
Aug. 29, 2009, 10:33 PM
I'm still hoping someone will find some music that works for this horse.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 29, 2009, 11:00 PM
I'm still hoping someone will find some music that works for this horse.

Do you have suggestions?

Pommederue
Aug. 29, 2009, 11:03 PM
:eek: What an AMAZING horse!!! Wow.

I showed my husband the video (whom btw knows NOTHING about anything dressage/horses/riding in general) and his response was, "WOW, looks like one of those, what are they, Tennessee Walking Horses."

I'm just repeating what he said...I know the difference. I was amazed and impressed he even knew what TWH's were...

Mike Matson
Aug. 29, 2009, 11:21 PM
Do you have suggestions?

I may do an experiment - time the bpms, and then watch the video without the music while playing the bpm music from my data base on my MacBook Pro. If so, I'll post what I think might work better, at least from my perspective. :)

The music now being used just doesn't give me any "goosebumps" like Brentina's "MoTown" freestyle, Bonfires' "Song Sung Blue" freestyle, and Ravel's current freestyle all do - and I've seen each of those "live".

SaddleFitterVA
Aug. 29, 2009, 11:30 PM
Wow! That horse seems pretty amazing. More of a freakish-ability type athlete than I'd want to ride.

I see a lot of focus and concentration, not so much tension. He is a compact horse.

That much leg/knee action is almost distracting in the video, probably because they kept zooming in on it.

quietann
Aug. 29, 2009, 11:32 PM
Not really my style, but I liked it anyway...

Did anyone else notice a very slight "hitch" in Totilas' right hock? I might be imagining things...

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 29, 2009, 11:34 PM
I may do an experiment - time the bpms, and then watch the video without the music while playing the bpm music from my data base on my MacBook Pro. If so, I'll post what I think might work better, at least from my perspective. :)

The music now being used just doesn't give me any "goosebumps" like Brentina's "MoTown" freestyle, Bonfires' "Song Sung Blue" freestyle, and Ravel's current freestyle all do - and I've seen each of those "live".

I like the Song Sung Blue and I like the other music you mentioned for those particular horses, but I have to say I *do* like that Edward has his own style and is somewhat eccentric. His horses are extreme and I would expect his music and choreography to push the envelope. I would be curious to see an alternative approach based on an analysis of the horse's bpms, though.

And re the park horse comments from others- I have seen A LOT of top park horses and none looked like Totilas through the back or hind end, and I don't recall any having the extreme freedom of shoulder that Totilas has.

TraksRuleDutchDrool
Aug. 30, 2009, 12:02 AM
Well I'm officially a fan. I guess I have been for the last 6 months or so that I became aware of his presence. How impressive to see everything I read about in the classic books, and I read a lot :winkgrin:, come alive in the 21st century.
Not sure what to think of such high marks though...I mean 90! :eek: Where does that leave him to go? And the others to fall? And this is with flaws? I am no expert, I missed the tempi error mentioned in the thread (my eyes were too teary at that point I guess) and I do think the music was a bit off rhythm (that does count in the score?) but he is perfect, I truly think so. Would love to see the notes on that test...9 for piroutte "tail almost touched the ground, shorten an inch and will be a 10" lol!!!

yaya
Aug. 30, 2009, 12:27 AM
Why does his neck NEVER change? I thought in the mediums and extendeds they were supposed to lengthen in the entire frame, not just throw their legs higher.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 30, 2009, 12:48 AM
Why does his neck NEVER change? I thought in the mediums and extendeds they were supposed to lengthen in the entire frame, not just throw their legs higher.

Maybe because Totilas would knock his (or Edward's) teeth out with his knees if he (Totilas) moved his head at all.

Sabine
Aug. 30, 2009, 01:27 AM
As those of you who know me will readily attest, I am not easily impressed. That horse is freaking amazing. When he enters the ring you hear the crowd colletively catch their breath.

For those thinking he is some sort of flamboyant leg mover with no use of his back (as some of his photos imply) let me set you straight. He moves completely through up and over his back. He just actually DOES have that much freedom and movement in his hocks and shoulders. And he seems happy and pleasant and workmanlike. Not tense and stressed like Salinero.

I was blown away and thrilled to have been there.

Parzival is also a treat to watch. But the horse that got my vote as the horse I think I would most like to ride was the last to go tonight. Victoria Max-Theurer's horse Augustin. Was a lovely animal.

I took tons of pictures, but don't have a way to upload them now. Will be home Tuesday and will upload some then if anyone is interested.

Coreene, I got you a very dark navy blue (almost black) cap from the games. The only other option was very hot pink. You just don't seem like a pink kinda girl to me.

great to hear your impression....and would love to hear more..!!

Sabine
Aug. 30, 2009, 01:30 AM
I like the Song Sung Blue and I like the other music you mentioned for those particular horses, but I have to say I *do* like that Edward has his own style and is somewhat eccentric. His horses are extreme and I would expect his music and choreography to push the envelope. I would be curious to see an alternative approach based on an analysis of the horse's bpms, though.

And re the park horse comments from others- I have seen A LOT of top park horses and none looked like Totilas through the back or hind end, and I don't recall any having the extreme freedom of shoulder that Totilas has.

Agree with that...the art here really is the fact that his topline is spongey or as some of the parkhorse folks call it "oily"...but he is that all the way in all limbs and in the body...so how do you top that...??? you can't!!!

Sabine
Aug. 30, 2009, 01:32 AM
Maybe because he would knock his (or Edward's) teeth out with his knees if he moved his head at all.

He's a stallion- Ed knows how to ride and train those- and otherwise- all I can say is 'bitter and sour'...hahah! Totilas rocks !!!

Coreene
Aug. 30, 2009, 01:59 AM
Sabine, schatzi, it's been far too long. How about Thursday the 10th at Prego? My treat.

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 30, 2009, 02:40 AM
He's a stallion- Ed knows how to ride and train those- and otherwise- all I can say is 'bitter and sour'...hahah! Totilas rocks !!!

I think you misunderstood - I meant that because Totilas has such extreme movement, he must have to be careful about how he holds his head because those knees come up really close to his muzzle. I was not criticizing him or his rider : )

Sonesta
Aug. 30, 2009, 07:09 AM
Ok. We are awake now.

I thought the music worked quite well for Tortilas. Dramatic.

My friend here in UK said about Tortilas "OMG! He looks like he's trying to get his knees up high enough to lick peanut butter off them." This was said admiringly, and sounded better than it looks written down!

I must say that there were some horses that did not score highly due to several major mistakes (one blew up in the ring when asked to canter) but otherwise had extremely good movements. I would have loved to seen their individual scores on the stuff that went well.

Anky had to have her horse be lead by a groom for the victory "gallop." Or trot in this case. The others I though were very kind to keep to a walk and jog trot so that Salinero could be kept under control. When the other two left the ring, EG was able to do his solo gallop and instead he kept it to a nice slow easy canter. Don't know if this was so as not to draw so much attention to the problem with Salinero by contrast or so he could show how relaxed his horse was.

Lgd1
Aug. 30, 2009, 09:06 AM
Links to BBc Iplayer. link says showjumping but it does do a chunk of the GPS

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00mbvr0/Showjumping_28_08_2009/

Freestyle isn't up yet but will post link when it is.

DownYonder
Aug. 30, 2009, 09:33 AM
The horse is truly a freak and is amazing to watch. No doubt about it, the Dutch have set a new bar in breeding and training. I am not a fan of rollkur by any means, but if the top horses are being trained that way and the judges see fit to award it with these types of scores, then that is going to be the way of the future for those that want to play in the big leagues.

And regarding the Dutch training system - does anyone know if they are swimming their horses? A friend of mine commented that the freedom and rotation in the shoulders of these top Dutch horses remind her of butterfliers.

paddington
Aug. 30, 2009, 09:36 AM
As soon as I saw the video I was reminded of the Da Vinci horse (a statue) from the 1400s. Since the model for that was a war horse (after which our dressage horses should be modeled), maybe we need to rethink our definition of "classical". The 1970s may not go back far enough.

http://www.leonardo-da-vinci-biography.com/leonardo-da-vinci-horse.html

rcloisonne
Aug. 30, 2009, 09:44 AM
He looks so much like his sire it's freaky. Wonderful horse and performance!

TheTetrarch
Aug. 30, 2009, 10:05 AM
All I can say is --- yuck.

I can't believe that test scored a 90+.

Very unsquare halt at entry, uneven tense passage, extended/medium/whatever trot that was not even close to being in his tracks, when he should be overtracking....

Not bitter, except perhaps the judging and perception about what is correct in dressage; certainly not impressed.

horsegirltv
Aug. 30, 2009, 10:14 AM
have you guys seen the actual youtube vid tho? walk (which most all GP horses have a challenge with), one transition and a not perfect halt aside this was fairly flawless with such quality and ease throughout! i certainly couldn't do that!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZhtiCqBAGM

i'm quite impressed and look forward to seeing this horse in person in a couple weeks when we're heading over to train with anky. can't wait!

dwblover
Aug. 30, 2009, 10:20 AM
Everyone has a right to their opinion, but I simply cannot see the tension that Totilas' detractors speak of. I saw no tension in that test. I think perhaps they are not used to seeing that much exersion, it takes a huge amount of effort and muscle to give a piaffe and passage like his. But how can there be tension when there is such looseness? I just don't get where people are seeing tension in this horse.

tikidoc
Aug. 30, 2009, 10:39 AM
thanks for the link - just watched. Lovely hoss, awsome. I'm not expert enough to get smart-alecki on scoring etc, but what's with that extended trot? It looked all out there in front, but was he barely tracking up behind?

Even so, awesome. I bet people will now run down the barn for his semen (Totilas', not Edward's - although maybe both?!)

Yup, I agree. Lovely test but not tracking up at the extended trot. If you pause the video and follow the footfalls, he is nowhere near to tracking up behind. The front end is very dramatic and I think that distracts the eye from the hind.

MintHillFarm
Aug. 30, 2009, 10:43 AM
Thanks very much for the link.

Amazing to watch...

horsegirltv
Aug. 30, 2009, 11:12 AM
thanks for that post dwblover. i too am a fan but just don't see how the non-fans could say he was tense.

arnika
Aug. 30, 2009, 01:23 PM
I agree tikidoc. Lovely horse, wonderful ride, but definitely not tracking up in his trot work. He really does look like a black andalusian and is quite beautiful. He looks fairly happy in his work to me and I'm glad to see him relaxed at the end of his test. Huge improvement over Salinero.

Growing up in park horse country a long time ago gives me the right to agree with whomever it was at the beginning that made that comparison. His foreleg movement and knee action looks exactly like them.

claire
Aug. 30, 2009, 01:53 PM
Do I hear music from Pirates of the Caribbean #3 incorporated into Totilas' Kur? The bells sound familiar. :confused:

Also, why did Anky change music for her Kur? (Although, JMVHO, I like this much more than the Cees music...)



I may do an experiment - time the bpms, and then watch the video without the music while playing the bpm music from my data base on my MacBook Pro. If so, I'll post what I think might work better, at least from my perspective. :)

The music now being used just doesn't give me any "goosebumps" like Brentina's "MoTown" freestyle, Bonfires' "Song Sung Blue" freestyle, and Ravel's current freestyle all do - and I've seen each of those "live".

Abby Kogler
Aug. 30, 2009, 02:12 PM
Dont you guys see how irregular he is behind much of the time? and how little real reach he has in the half passes? and how little track up there is in the extensions?

Hes beautiful, Edward is beautiful, but there is more than a little hagiography going on! a 90?

Saddlebred on crack, to me. I know, I know >;->

Retreating now. Hee!

NowThatsATrot
Aug. 30, 2009, 02:21 PM
They do make a nice pair... Just not my cup of tea.

TheHorseProblem
Aug. 30, 2009, 02:27 PM
Hes beautiful, Edward is beautiful, but there is more than a little hagiography going on! a 90?

Saddlebred on crack, to me. I know, I know >;->



:yes::yes::yes:

KatherineC
Aug. 30, 2009, 02:30 PM
The horse is lovely and his piaffe to passage transitions were beautiful. It also looked like he double planted his back feet in a few of the changes to 1.

But I don't like how he seems short in the neck and how busy the trot is up front. It is distracting. For me, the top half of the horse does not match the bottom. His legs seem very refined and he appears to be light boned. His top seems thick and very macho (which is no surprise since he is a stallion).

Coreene
Aug. 30, 2009, 03:12 PM
The owners said they would not use him for breeding while he is competing so as to avoid distractions.

egontoast
Aug. 30, 2009, 04:05 PM
Dont you guys see how irregular he is behind much of the time? and how little real reach he has in the half passes? and how little track up there is in the extensions?

Hes beautiful, Edward is beautiful, but there is more than a little hagiography going on! a 90?

Saddlebred on crack, to me. I know, I know >;->

Retreating now. Hee!


you should be come an international judge because you are obviously incredibly much more knowledgeable than these judges. Not.

jumpsnake
Aug. 30, 2009, 04:43 PM
I think I'm a fan, though I don't know about a 90....

I agree not tracking up enough at extended trot. I agree a few 1 tempes the rear legs were together.

However, piaffe was great, pirouettes were great. Extended canter at one point I could really see the lift through the back.

So was this horse trained using Rollkur? Are all Dutch horses trained that way now? He looks a lot more relaxed than Salinero does...

Abby Kogler
Aug. 30, 2009, 05:03 PM
you should be come an international judge because you are obviously incredibly much more knowledgeable than these judges. Not.

And we can both become AQHA western pleasure judges too since you have to be a judge to be able to tell if something is off, apparantly.

There are lots of reasons to disagree about things, but to say that judges are irrefutable is pretty darn funny!

Abby

egontoast
Aug. 30, 2009, 05:09 PM
And we can both become AQHA western pleasure judges too since you have to be a judge to be able to tell if something is off, apparantly.

There are lots of reasons to disagree about things, but to say that judges are irrefutable is pretty darn funny!
Abby

Right and according to you the judges are incompetent and they missed it! gee, they gave 90+ to a lame horse!! You know better though. That's "pretty darn funny".

Delusions of grandeur maybe?

BabyGoose
Aug. 30, 2009, 05:30 PM
:eek: What an AMAZING horse!!! Wow.

I showed my husband the video (whom btw knows NOTHING about anything dressage/horses/riding in general) and his response was, "WOW, looks like one of those, what are they, Tennessee Walking Horses."

I'm just repeating what he said...I know the difference. I was amazed and impressed he even knew what TWH's were...

To me, when a someone who knows little about horses says that he looks like a TWH, that means that the horse does look like a TWH and that should tell us something about the way dressage horses are moving these days. The gaits are getting too big and stylized, they look almost un natural. The trot made me think big lick horses!

egontoast
Aug. 30, 2009, 05:51 PM
It's quite possible that the unknowledgeable horse people could be wrong and the trained judges could be right. maybe?

PiaffeDreams
Aug. 30, 2009, 05:56 PM
The trot made me think big lick horses!

Except big lick horses aren't even at a trot. :lol: Apples to oranges.

Totally different gait, completely different outline on the horse.

Totilas is utterly fantastic to me- then he is very much my type of horse...Dare I say, drooling in envy that this horse has got the best attributes of what I like in the Spanish horses with the elasticity, freedom and reach beyond the scope of even the average warmblood.

And, Edward Gal!! He is even more remarkable for the fact he has preserved and enhanced the phenomenal natural talent of this horse... it is a testament that he has not diminished the gaits of such a horse.

Finally, I think the music is SUPER! -it goes with the horse, puts me on the edge of my seat, tells a story, and is different yet memorable.

Enough of my unashamed gushing. ;)

BabyGoose
Aug. 30, 2009, 05:58 PM
The unknowledgable horse people only go by what they see overall. They are not biased by anything. If the horses movement made someone think of a TWH movement, then there must be something there in the overall impression that makes that person think that. And that doesn't seem like what we are looking for in dressage.

BabyGoose
Aug. 30, 2009, 06:02 PM
Except big lick horses aren't even at a trot. :lol: Apples to oranges.

Totally different gait, completely different outline on the horse.




I realize that the big lick horses are not trotting. My point is the dressage horses of today have such big leg movement these days it looks unatural, much like the big lick horses gait is overly exagerrated.

The horse is not changing it's overall frame at all, just moving it's front legs higher and faster. The back end is all strung out behind. It looks like the front and back of the horse is totally disconnected.

egontoast
Aug. 30, 2009, 06:02 PM
The unknowledgable horse people only go by what they see overall. They are not biased by anything. If the horses movement made someone think of a TWH movement, then there must be something there in the overall impression that makes that person think that. And that doesn't seem like what we are looking for in dressage

Um, guess what? Unknowledgeable people are UNKNOWLEDGEABLE!:lol:

BabyGoose
Aug. 30, 2009, 06:03 PM
Um, guess what? Unknowledgeable people are UNKNOWLEDGEABLE!:lol:

Nevermind, you are totally missing my point.

BabyGoose
Aug. 30, 2009, 06:07 PM
I agree tikidoc. Lovely horse, wonderful ride, but definitely not tracking up in his trot work. He really does look like a black andalusian and is quite beautiful. He looks fairly happy in his work to me and I'm glad to see him relaxed at the end of his test. Huge improvement over Salinero.

Growing up in park horse country a long time ago gives me the right to agree with whomever it was at the beginning that made that comparison. His foreleg movement and knee action looks exactly like them.

Apparently I am not the only one.

Abby Kogler
Aug. 30, 2009, 06:12 PM
Right and according to you the judges are incompetent and they missed it! gee, they gave 90+ to a lame horse!! You know better though. That's "pretty darn funny".

Delusions of grandeur maybe?


Well, do you think judges are infallible?

Have you seen other events where judges were incorrect?

Do you like the way AQHA WP horses go? Do they win?

Do you like the way Big Lick horses go? Are you a judge? Do you have to be to have an opinion about them?

Do you see or not that this horse is periodically arrhythmic behind? Did I call him lame?

You clearly like the way this horse goes. I dont. Do I have to be an international judge to voice an opinion here? That makes the board pretty small, dont you think? The Chronicle doesnt call this board "International Judges Only Allowed to Have Opinions', nor does it make any of us fill out our bona fides before posting.

Other than castigating me, you could say what you like about it, or other salient comments. Try that?

Abby

egontoast
Aug. 30, 2009, 07:14 PM
Do you have a better eye than all the judges on that panel? yes or no.

OlympicDreams
Aug. 30, 2009, 07:27 PM
All I can say is --- yuck.

I can't believe that test scored a 90+.

Very unsquare halt at entry, uneven tense passage, extended/medium/whatever trot that was not even close to being in his tracks, when he should be overtracking....

Not bitter, except perhaps the judging and perception about what is correct in dressage; certainly not impressed.


AMEN!!! I agree 150%!!!!

tikidoc
Aug. 30, 2009, 07:31 PM
Do you have a better eye than all the judges on that panel? yes or no.

I don't think that noting imperfections in the test equates to thinking that one has a better eye than international judges. I stated before, as have others, that the horse was not tracking up behind in the trot extensions. Does that mean that I think I am better than an international judge? No, absolutely not. But I also think the score might be somewhat inflated. No doubt it is a lovely horse, and Gal is a beautiful, effective rider. The horse is very dramatic, and there were some parts of the test that were absolutely beautiful - the canter pirouettes certainly come to mind. But I also think that the flamboyant front end distracts the eye from the less correct hind end, and that the horse was not tracking up during the trot extensions. Does that mean I have "delusions of grandeur"? I think not.

Abby Kogler
Aug. 30, 2009, 07:54 PM
Do you have a better eye than all the judges on that panel? yes or no.

I guess so, since thats what you need to hear me say to be able to have an opinion about it.

Id still be curious to hear why you think judges are infallible. I have seen keerazy judging in lots of activities as have most people who compete in anything.

Until judges arent human, you can have all kinds of interpretations of things.

Do you have to be a judge to see the problems in WP? Yes or no?

do you have to be a judge to comment on Big Lick? Yes or no?

I didnt have to be an astronaut to see the Challenger explode.

Abby

candico
Aug. 30, 2009, 08:03 PM
If he had performed a "perfect" test - with correct trot extensions, tempis, final halt - then the score should have been 100%. And if this horse wants to move with that much freedom and expression what is the rider to do?

Pony Fixer
Aug. 30, 2009, 08:52 PM
Since a "10" is actually "Excellent", not "Perfect", I would say the scores are finally reflecting the quality seen in international competition.

I mean, if the "average" GP horse here (US) in USDF competitions is winning with a 60-70%, then shouldn't these horses be getting 75-90%?

Knight's Journey
Aug. 30, 2009, 10:11 PM
I love freestyle, but I have to say that watching this video made me feel a little off. Even Anky's horse looked more loose and relaxed than Totilas. Rewatching the video I noticed the only time he was tracking up was at the walk. Were the judges not looking at his hind end? The action of his front end was very distracting... maybe they didn't notice.

Forte
Aug. 30, 2009, 11:26 PM
I thought that the ride was fantastic!!! Perfect? No. But pretty amazing none the less! The canter pirouettes on that horse are out of this world. Nothing fake or mechanical about it IMHO.

pattir7
Aug. 31, 2009, 12:42 AM
and now that i have seen the vid... all i can say is:not my cup of tea, and if that is what the future of top dressage is - it isnt something i will aspire too.

and before anyone lambasts me - yeah yeah, the horse is talented.... but the manner in which he is ridden just leaves me cold. honest to god it is (1970s) park horse doing dressage. how sad.

:(

eta: i guess the meaning of "dressage" has changed - i prefer horse going how they did 15 + years ago where the horse had more freedom, more usage of their neck, more harmony, where it looked more like a partnership and a dance rather than a horse crammed together and being forced to do as its rider demands. (please see rides from Klimke, et al)

The feel is just so different - so many rides of the past would leave me in tears from joy - now i watch many of these rides and want to cry for what we have lost and how cold and hard and pumped it all looks and feels.

eXtrmeStreSSage all the way.

ok, i am done - i will go crawl back under my rock.


Well mbm... I feel much the same. Not my cup of tea. I see nothing at all natural in how this horse moves... and have no idea and don't want to speculate if he moves like that in pasture or not.. I've never seen a horse get their mouth froth just above their knees... I don't know that he's tense.. he looks pretty elastic (except for his neck which looks cast in stone).. there's a lot of 'up down' movement...but not much forward movement that I can see. The front end is so distracting, you tend to not be able to look behind. My eye is immediately drawn to the hind end...which is not bad if you cover up the front half of the horse...but it does not cover ground and does not match the front half (nothing could!).

In general, I just don't like all that knee action... that up down saddlebred type movement... it's not enough to have the front legs parallel to the ground in the extended trot, the hind end must propel the horse forward.. it must match the front end if not exceed it...and that's not happening here... The extended trot is my favorite to watch...and some horses (i.e. quarterback) just take my breath away when they do it.. it just flows... so powerful.. so fluid... so even... this just doesn't do that to me...

Coppers mom
Aug. 31, 2009, 12:44 AM
I guess I just don't understand why this horse is so polarizing. Some act like he doesn't deserve the score because of X, Y, and Z, and others act like he's absolutely perfect. Neither is really correct, IMO.

I think that he has his strengths and weaknesses, just like all horses. He happens to be very good at the super collected work. It's not a big deal to point out that the extensions are all front end, and you don't have to be an international judge to see it. Extensions are just harder for him. Notice how much easier it is for him to come back from an extended canter to a pirouhette, where it takes him most of the diagonal to really get going at the extended trot. It's just a matter of time. He's not a super-horse (yet), but he's not exactly bottom of the barrel either. He just needs to grow up and get stronger.

Personally, I don't understand the excitement. Yes, he's big and black and his front end is impressive, but he still has the same troubles every other horse has. Sometimes he's tense, sometimes he's sticky behind, and sometimes he's downright brilliant. He's not perfect, and it's not heresy to comment on the performance.

Dressage Art
Aug. 31, 2009, 12:50 AM
He just scored the highest scores in dressage history - that's why we are all buzzing about him! We are witnessing a dressage history made here. He scored many, many 10s!

As of being polarizing - plenty of absolutely innocent subjects are polarizing as well: like ride with jacket of no jacket in hot weather. The disagreement about Totalis doesn’t bother me, most of us don’t come here to be in a 100% agreement with each other. I personally, enjoy the different point of views and feelings and glad that people do share them. (as long as it doesn't lead to name calling)

Coppers mom
Aug. 31, 2009, 01:03 AM
As of being polarizing - plenty of absolutely innocent subjects are polarizing as well: like ride with jacket of no jacket in hot weather. The disagreement about Totalis doesn’t bother me, most of us don’t come here to be in a 100% agreement with each other. I personally, enjoy the different point of views and feelings and glad that people do share them. (as long as it doesn't lead to name calling)

*scoffs* Well, you know, jackets ARE important. ;)

It doesn't bother me either, I just don't get it. Some people are so infatuated with him that they deny any shortage behind, and others are so focused on him missing a little in the back during the changes that they miss the overall picture.

Foxtrot's
Aug. 31, 2009, 02:25 AM
Well of course he is not perfect - he only got a 90.

For those who have seen him in the flesh he is awe inspiring. For those who rely on youTube it is a poor comparison. Like live theatre and the movies.

Pick, pick, pick. With all these on-line experts we should have way more top judges out there.

I loved how Edward was thrilled with his ride and his horse.

tikidoc
Aug. 31, 2009, 08:37 AM
Pick, pick, pick. With all these on-line experts we should have way more top judges out there.

I really don't understand the logic that if one can only analyze and criticize an international level test if one is a top judge. I think that looking carefully at a test and evaluating the good and bad (or less good, or whatever) points, and comparing my analysis to that of others is a great learning experience. Same goes for the conformation threads - I learn a lot by coming up with my own analysis then reading those of other posters. I would also love to see the scoring sheets from the judges while watching the test - it would be great if those were available for international competitions, for the same reason.

Many have brought up valid points of criticism of this test. Some are a matter of taste - like not liking the amount of knee action - and those have generally been labeled as such in the posts. I lean more towards the group that prefers a more natural appearing gait, but then again I grew up around park horses, so admittedly, that colors my opinion. Some points however, have been valid criticisms of the correctness of movements, many relating to the hind end during the extensions.

Why can't we try to learn from each other and agree to disagree on some issues, rather than name calling and personal attacks like the ones on this thread?

TheTetrarch
Aug. 31, 2009, 08:51 AM
Well of course he is not perfect - he only got a 90.

For those who have seen him in the flesh he is awe inspiring. For those who rely on youTube it is a poor comparison. Like live theatre and the movies.

Pick, pick, pick. With all these on-line experts we should have way more top judges out there.

I loved how Edward was thrilled with his ride and his horse.


So in real life the horse looks completely different?

Those who do not care for Totilas are not picking. It's pointing out the rift between competitive and correct dressage at the highest levels.

The insinuations that one has to be an international judge to critique these rides are moronic. True self-carriage is instantly recognizeable and cannot be faked. Apparently many on this board don't know what it looks like, sadly. It's something that comes up quite early in dressage training.

nomeolvides
Aug. 31, 2009, 09:49 AM
Those who do not care for Totilas are not picking. It's pointing out the rift between competitive and correct dressage at the highest levels.

The insinuations that one has to be an international judge to critique these rides are moronic. True self-carriage is instantly recognizeable and cannot be faked. Apparently many on this board don't know what it looks like, sadly. It's something that comes up quite early in dressage training.
But a lot of his work IS correct.

Auventera Two
Aug. 31, 2009, 12:27 PM
Gorgeous animal, amazing rider. Any of us would be in complete awe to stand near this magnificent animal, but this is just more proof of what "modern day dressage" is. A farrier said it best on another forum when he noted that this horse should be the envy of all the long-footed saddlebred trainers out there. Long-footed saddlebred movement has not been typical for warmbloods.

Dressage is a method of training in which a horse is given a base and then movements and skills added on top of that base. A quarter horse can do it, an arab, a saddlebred, or a warmblood. I can admire and appreciate horses of all breeds and types competing in dressage. I even enjoy watching the gaited dressage competitions, in which horses don't trot at all, but perform a running walk.

A beautifully trained horse is a beautifully trained horse, regardless of breed or how high he snaps his knees. However, traditionally, world-stage competition dressage with warmbloods has produced a certain style and type of movement that people have come to associate with the discipline. The style and type of movement and conformation that is becoming more and more common and popular is different than the old style military type warmbloods.

Dressage seems to get showier all the time. Higher stepping, blingy browbands, lighter/flashier/hotter horses, questionable training tactics. I guess its all just a sign of change. Change is usually a good thing, and evolution is just the natural progression of life.

Watching a snappy kneed Lipizzaner perform a dressage test makes my heart skip a beat, but it doesn't mean that the style of movement is, or should be, what's rewarded on the world stage. And it doesn't mean that because I love seeing snappy high knees on a baroque that I want to see it on a warmblood. They are different breeds, and "should" present different styles.

bort84
Aug. 31, 2009, 12:27 PM
Ack! Every Totilas thread turns into a borderline train wreck...

So, I grew up riding saddle seat. Totilas does put one in mind of a very balanced park horse (though never a big lick horse in my opinion). The thing many people that haven't trained park-style horses may not realize is that it takes extreme talent and proper training to get a horse that naturally wants to use his front end like that to also be balanced behind, quiet in his brain, and elastic through his body (like Totilas generally is). Just take a look at some videos of park horses (ASBs, arabs, morgans), and you'll see that many of them are very unbalanced; the top top horses are square, but the horses in the lower ribbons are often noticeably uneven due to balance issues from rider or horse.

Totilas' trot is natural for him, and I bet he shows quite a bit of natural action while playing out in pasture. Obviously training will enhance this movement, but that's what dressage training does, enhances a horse's natural ability.

Anyway, I also think comparing international dressage judges to QH WP judges is kind of silly. It takes almost nothing to be a judge in many breed show arenas. You have to get a card and go through some mild training, but it doesn't require anything close to the training it takes to be an international dressage judge (that's why the many of the trainers in the breed show ring are also judges). Not saying dressage judges are infallible, they aren't, but they are generally, as a group, far more trained than the judges you see at breed shows (QHs, ASBs, Arabs, TWHs, etc...) even top national breed shows. Obviously everyone is entitled to their opinion, but multiple judges at international competitions are giving Totilas a lot of recognition, so there's something he's doing right, even if it's not all perfect.

After watching the video, I certainly agree that Totilas doesn't show quite as much push from behind as you might like to see in the extensions. He does, however, usually track up, but just barely. At an extended trot, you'd obviously like to see more than that. I'd guess this will improve with strength and training. He was also a tad uneven behind in some of his piaffe-passage work, but that is not all that uncommon for a horse showing that kind of energy and action (especially at an exciting venue at night). I think it's another aspect that will probably improve with experience and training. Also, this was a test ridden at night, to music, with an enthusiastic crowd, and that gets any horse worth his salt a little excited. I agree that he could show a little more flexibility in his neck, but, again, I think he's still a young-ish horse on the GP circuit, and he also has a LOT of energy to direct. He may just not be quite ready for that yet.

I think he's a super horse that still has some issues to work through (like they all do). He gets record scores because he brings an excitement to the ring that is unusual but still performs most of the test in an extremely correct fashion. I think that's wonderful. Dressage is a beautiful sport, and if the horse can do the majority of his test in near excellent style, I don't mind if he ups the ante a bit by bringing additional energy to the ring with his expressive movement.

Also wanted to add that just because movement like Totilas' is getting rewarded doesn't mean other types of movers aren't also being scored well. Ravel is a completely different type of horse that also gets high scores. There are many top dressage horses out there that don't have high action like Totilas does, so I don't see every breeder trying to go out and replicate Totilas (not that I'd mind much, haha, and good luck breeding his double consistently!) I think Totilas just has a slight edge because he's very exciting to watch and still does the majority of his test with precision.

mickeydoodle
Aug. 31, 2009, 01:34 PM
fabulous- he has made such progress this year. this ride is a big improvement on the ones in the indoor Dutch championships in the winter. Love him and Gal

doccer
Aug. 31, 2009, 01:50 PM
as the sport evolves, with judging, different horses and movements starting to win because of whatever training method is popular right now... some people won't be able to evolve with it, won't experience something more than a drab over-done mediocre horse. (and just maybe, these are the people that just spent 100g on a horse that is now 'yesterdays' news lol)

90% might be a bit eccentric for a score... someone already said it... today's 90% is yesterdays 80%. but why not? congrats on the 90% lol can't wait to see more of this in the future !

SillyHorse
Aug. 31, 2009, 02:01 PM
Well of course he is not perfect - he only got a 90.

For those who have seen him in the flesh he is awe inspiring. For those who rely on youTube it is a poor comparison. Like live theatre and the movies.

Pick, pick, pick. With all these on-line experts we should have way more top judges out there.

I loved how Edward was thrilled with his ride and his horse.
By the same token then, one really should be a "top judge" (whatever that might be) to make positive comments about the horse's performance, too -- right?

Plantagenet
Aug. 31, 2009, 02:51 PM
sorry, gang. not my cup of tea either.

I think it looks like he's moving his legs more than using his back. the pi/pa is fun to watch though!


give me Rusty in his prime!

Coppers mom
Aug. 31, 2009, 03:54 PM
So in real life the horse looks completely different?

Those who do not care for Totilas are not picking. It's pointing out the rift between competitive and correct dressage at the highest levels.

The insinuations that one has to be an international judge to critique these rides are moronic. True self-carriage is instantly recognizeable and cannot be faked. Apparently many on this board don't know what it looks like, sadly. It's something that comes up quite early in dressage training.

Videos do have a tendency to take away from a horse, and don't always show everything as it is. Most of it is right, but not enough to really give you the experience of watching it live.

A lot of times, a horse will look like he moves flatter, and everything will be slightly distorted. It's very possible that he looks very through in the back in person, but it doesn't translate onto video. Horses rarely look as impressive on video as they do in person.

Pony Fixer
Aug. 31, 2009, 03:55 PM
I'm not sure how a horse "not using his back" could piaffe like that.

Coppers mom
Aug. 31, 2009, 03:58 PM
Does anyone else think that the music may have an influence on some of the comments about him being tense? The music is very intimidating, doesn't really match him, and he's such a big mover. I wonder if it may be giving a tense impression, just like when you hear really flowing music, the test seems more flowing and relaxed, just because that's what state of mind it puts you in.

spotted mustang
Aug. 31, 2009, 04:00 PM
I guess I just don't understand why this horse is so polarizing. Some act like he doesn't deserve the score because of X, Y, and Z, and others act like he's absolutely perfect. Neither is really correct, IMO.

I think that he has his strengths and weaknesses, just like all horses. He happens to be very good at the super collected work. It's not a big deal to point out that the extensions are all front end, and you don't have to be an international judge to see it. Extensions are just harder for him. Notice how much easier it is for him to come back from an extended canter to a pirouhette, where it takes him most of the diagonal to really get going at the extended trot. It's just a matter of time. He's not a super-horse (yet), but he's not exactly bottom of the barrel either. He just needs to grow up and get stronger.

Personally, I don't understand the excitement. Yes, he's big and black and his front end is impressive, but he still has the same troubles every other horse has. Sometimes he's tense, sometimes he's sticky behind, and sometimes he's downright brilliant. He's not perfect, and it's not heresy to comment on the performance.

I think this is an excellent comment - I agree. He's a marvellous horse, he's still so young, but there've been other awesome horses before him. I just don't really understand why they thought this was the best freestyle ever ridden. I wish the judges would take the time to go through it bit by bit and explain to my little first-level brain how this works. I'm not criticizing them; I know that they know more than me, but why do they have to be so mysterious?

mickeydoodle
Aug. 31, 2009, 04:05 PM
It is not mysterious, his transitions in and between the gaits were flawless, he piaffes and passages effortlessly two feet off the ground, and he looks happy doing it. His ears are on Gal, you can see him thinking. Yes there was one "two footed" change in the ones, but the rest was fabulouslly ridden and trained. The "submission" and harmony were wonderful.

Speaking of training, Toto's is wonderful- he is the picture of submission in that test. Did anyone watch the closeups of his half pass transitions???? The were seamless- a beautiful, fluid glide from one bend to another, with no bobble in tempo nor rhythm. And the extended canter to canter pirouette??????? Fabulous.

Anyone who has done canter pirouettes at all knows what a struggle it can be in the begining to just get the pirouette canter from collected canter. It is hard for the horse to shorten the stride, keep the jump, keep the rhythm, and stay thru to the reins. Then you have to turn also in the next step. Let alone going from an extended canter to a pirouette canter in one or three strides, it is an incredible mark of his submission that he can do that. Have you ever tried an extended canter to a pirouette canter? It is not just a "trick". How many of us have galloped down the long side in a 1st level lengenening only to find quite a lot of horse in your hand at the end, hard to get back to a "working canter". Try having a really uphill, extended canter and then try seamlessly going to a collected canter- very very hard to do without complete submission from a horse who is totally listening and on your aids.

Carol Ames
Aug. 31, 2009, 04:12 PM
Willl someone please post a link?

mickeydoodle
Aug. 31, 2009, 04:14 PM
Willl someone please post a link?


Just go to www.dressagedaily.com (http://www.dressagedaily.com) they have a great video, with what sounds like British sports announcer commentary

Carol Ames
Aug. 31, 2009, 04:31 PM
Thanks m:cool:bm!

grayarabs
Aug. 31, 2009, 06:06 PM
Dumb comment in regards to Totilas not fully engaging his hind end in trot extensions.
Do some stallions compensate a bit to try to protect their "parts"?

spotted mustang
Aug. 31, 2009, 06:45 PM
Dumb comment in regards to Totilas not fully engaging his hind end in trot extensions.
Do some stallions compensate a bit to try to protect their "parts"?


:D it certainly explains why he doesn't lift his hind legs as high as his front ones.

ceffyl
Aug. 31, 2009, 06:54 PM
sorry, gang. not my cup of tea either.
give me Rusty in his prime!


Yes and don't you remember Rusty just as controversial when first erupted onto the scene? "Oh he'll never stay sound"; "oh he is just too too over the top in movement"; "he is all WOW factor, but oh bring back Alreich"

Toto in the flesh is so light, so rhythmical, a natural for the movements the modern kur dictates. What he has brought is a new excitement to dressage, surge in public interest, a legion of fans, many of them could be our next generation of aspiring riders.

Most of all he is one of the most noteable horses at this level competing that actually looks relaxed and happy in his expression throughout the warm up, test, and post test "wander round the arena".

He is also not so far removed in stature and outline from some of the old Iberian lines that dressage owes so much in history to. Note to speed readers of other's post that I did NOT say in pedigree.

And I would bet my bottom dollar that if this horse had burst onto the scene under the good old stars and stripes y'all would be singing his praises. Note - this comes from one who does have dual USA / UK family before you flame me for being biased.

J-Lu
Aug. 31, 2009, 08:51 PM
Ceffyl, Who said that Rusty was all Wow factor? I remember people complaining that he was the "best of the rest" after Bonfire and Gigolo. I don't consider Rusty as "flashy" at all - but he sure was uphill, had reach and could be straight as an arrow in tempis.

Also, please don't belittle the conversation by stating that if Totilas was American bred people would change their tune. People are trying to make a point - try undertanding the point of view (whether or not you agree).

Plantagenet
Aug. 31, 2009, 09:21 PM
not only was Rusty straight in his tempis, he covered an amazing amount of ground while doing them. his halfpass could be super. however his piaffe was never great and really became a problem towards the end.

as for how can a horse piaffe w/o moving his back...I didn't say he didn't use his back, it just looks to me as if he's MORE moving his legs than using his back. I think some folks call them leg movers...

that being said, he looks wonderful in his transitions and on the aids. really a beautifully trained, willing 9 year old.

mickeydoodle
Aug. 31, 2009, 10:27 PM
Rusty also had a weak piaffe, it was not his thing no matter how hard Ulla tried. He made up for it in the other movements.

Ambrey
Aug. 31, 2009, 10:34 PM
Just in case anyone else was curious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41bqwX8JExs&feature=related

Ulla and Rusty, WC 2003

slc2
Sep. 1, 2009, 01:16 AM
plenty of horses have done well with a myeh piaffe. It isn't everything.

bort84
Sep. 1, 2009, 11:43 AM
plenty of horses have done well with a myeh piaffe. It isn't everything.

True, but a beautiful piaffe is lovely to see since so few horses can do it really well = )

Jenn2674
Sep. 1, 2009, 01:01 PM
Wow! I haven't been here in ages but when I saw heard and saw the test, I just was dying to see what people were saying. Just gonna add my 2 cents in as well.

1. So what if the horse has alot of front end movement? It doesn't make everything else bad. Noone (I am assuming and I hope) is putting weights on the horses shoes to make him move that way. It is natural and it doesn't make it good or bad, it just is what it is. Dressage should be about embracing the individual horse and if some of them have active front ends, well that doesn't automatically make the test bad just because "you don't like it". I can understand personal preference, I really can, but just because I am not a big Arab fan does not mean that I can't appreciate it when an Arab puts in a brilliant dressage test even when it does move well "araby". (and no flames here, I'm not picking on any breed just giving an example of what isn't "my cup of tea".

2. A 90% test, while it is record breaking, does not mean perfect. Of course there are going to be flaws in the test. Nothing wrong in pointing them out but dressage in simplicity means training and that horse had virtually perfect transitions, amazing piaffe and passage, and oh god I don't think I've ever seen more perfect canter pirouttes. I didn't think he was tense but he sure was focused. So he could have had better extensions and he planted his feet in some of the changes and he may have been a teeny, tiny bit scrunched in. There is nothing wrong with pointing these things out but I do think it is important to address the positive as well as the negative but much of that negative/vs positive vibe is just the individual's personality. Thankfully the horse has time to just get better from here on out.

I loved it! I so hope I can see him live at the WEGs next year!!!!

Jenn

rabicon
Sep. 1, 2009, 05:10 PM
Beautiful horse, Beautiful test. The horse does so many things amazing and then some not so much but he looks amazing because of all the action he has. I like action in the front. Doesn't bother me at all I also like horses without as much action in front. What makes me like these horses is how fluid they are in general and the potential they do have, how rideable they seem to be and how willing they are, doesn't matter knee or not.

I agree that his extended trot and canter left a lot to be desired but the rest of his test was beautiful to me and worth what he got. I agree that the extended work should show a more extended frame and this horse never moved his neck. It was like it was cemented in place the whole test. Really didn't like that, but he did look relaxed and fluid and happy thru his test and that counts for alot. Can't wait to see him in a year.

Dressage Art
Sep. 1, 2009, 05:18 PM
True, but a beautiful piaffe is lovely to see since so few horses can do it really well = )

I hate watching labored piaffe... and for non-horse people labored piaffe doesn't look anything special or beautiful, that’s why so many confuse jigging with bad piaffe or passage.

Sonesta
Sep. 1, 2009, 05:46 PM
For what it's worth, I have posted some of the pics I took at the Championships. The lighting was not good from where we were sitting, but I got what I could.

www.sonestafarms.com/2009feichamps.htm

Carol Ames
Sep. 2, 2009, 12:03 AM
What is his breeding?

Hrsedq
Sep. 2, 2009, 12:49 AM
TOTILAS*
blk 17.2 2000

Sire Line
DUTCH WARMBLOOD GRIBALDI*
blk 1.72m 1993
TRAKEHNER KOSTOLANY*
blk 1.70m 1985
TRAKEHNER ENRICO CARUSO*
blk/br 1.69m 1978
TRAKEHNER MAHAGONI*
dkb/br 1.65m 1974 PASTEUR* blk/br 1.69m 1963
MAHARANI II* dkb/br 1.60m 1969
ELCHNIEDERUNG
dkb/br 1.61m 1972 AMAGUN* blk/br 1.66m 1968
ELBING blk 1.63m 1966
KAPSTADT
gr 1.70m 1980
TRAKEHNER FALKE*
gr 172 cm 1976 GRIMSEL* ch 1.67m 1970
FAWIZA* gr 1.62m 1963
KARBEN*
b 1.69m 1974 IBIKUS* b 1.68m 1967
KAPRICE II* dk ch 1.69m 1965
GONDOLA II
blk/br 1.54m 1972
TRAKEHNER IBIKUS*
b 1.68m 1967
TRAKEHNER HERTILAS*
dkb/br 1.58m 1963 LORETTO ch 1957
HERBSTGOLD* blk 1.62m 1957
ISOLDA*
ch 1.65m 1959 IMPULS* b 1.64m 1953
ISOLA MADRE dkb/br 1.58m 1945
GLORIA VI
b 1.64m 1968
TRAKEHNER FLUGSAND*
ch 1.65m 1959 ALTAN* ch 166 cm 1943
FLUGTAUBE ch 1.62m 1955
GEMMA
b 1963 KONGO blk
GEMSE ch 1.61m 1954
LOMINKA
~1993

Dam Line

DUTCH WARMBLOOD GLENDALE*
b 17.0hh 1988
DUTCH WARMBLOOD NIMMERDOR*
b 168 cm 1972
KWPN FARN*
b 169 cm 1959 FAX I* b 162 cm 1954
DORETTE* blk 156 cm 1958
RAMONA
b 1963 KORIDON* ch 16.1 1946
FRIEDHILDE II* 1958
SILJA
1976
KWPN MARCO POLO*
dk ch 1.62m 1962 POET* ch 1.62m 1941
MIRAKEL ch 1.55m 1955
WILLY A POLARIS b 1959
CHRISTIEN
ELSA
br 1986
KWPN AKTEUR*
br 1964
DUTCH WARMBLOOD AMOR
1959 HERRSCHER br 1952
BARBA b 1943
JONKVROUW SINAEDA* dkb/br 16.2 1955
RITTA 1951
WOMINKA
1980
KWPN PERICLES
br 16.2 1962 RELIC* blk 1945
QUEEN OF PERU br 1948
VIOLA B FARN* b 169 cm 1959
AMINKA B

* - Photo Available

Coppers mom
Sep. 2, 2009, 02:45 AM
God, is he really 17.2?! How tall is Edward?

horsegirltv
Sep. 2, 2009, 08:39 AM
Wow! I haven't been here in ages but when I saw heard and saw the test, I just was dying to see what people were saying. Just gonna add my 2 cents in as well.

1. So what if the horse has alot of front end movement? It doesn't make everything else bad. Noone (I am assuming and I hope) is putting weights on the horses shoes to make him move that way. It is natural and it doesn't make it good or bad, it just is what it is. Dressage should be about embracing the individual horse and if some of them have active front ends, well that doesn't automatically make the test bad just because "you don't like it". I can understand personal preference, I really can, but just because I am not a big Arab fan does not mean that I can't appreciate it when an Arab puts in a brilliant dressage test even when it does move well "araby". (and no flames here, I'm not picking on any breed just giving an example of what isn't "my cup of tea".

2. A 90% test, while it is record breaking, does not mean perfect. Of course there are going to be flaws in the test. Nothing wrong in pointing them out but dressage in simplicity means training and that horse had virtually perfect transitions, amazing piaffe and passage, and oh god I don't think I've ever seen more perfect canter pirouttes. I didn't think he was tense but he sure was focused. So he could have had better extensions and he planted his feet in some of the changes and he may have been a teeny, tiny bit scrunched in. There is nothing wrong with pointing these things out but I do think it is important to address the positive as well as the negative but much of that negative/vs positive vibe is just the individual's personality. Thankfully the horse has time to just get better from here on out.

I loved it! I so hope I can see him live at the WEGs next year!!!!

Jenn

Wow Jenn! I think this was one of the best constructed and thoughtful responses to this thread of many great positive and negative posts. You make some awesome points, especially on the Arab doing dressage. It does mean "training" so that's a great point that any horse and to many folks dismay even mules can do it and it looks according to their base athletic ability.

Your post was a pleasure. Thanks for the insight!

Sonesta
Sep. 2, 2009, 09:33 AM
I'm not sure why their site has him listed at 17.2. I think it's a typo. He's about 16.2 from my looking at him.

mickeydoodle
Sep. 2, 2009, 03:51 PM
Go to www.dressage-news.com (http://www.dressage-news.com) to see a good interview with Edward Gal just before the 90% freestyle. He knows he had some mistakes in the the tests (he says the walk was not great in the GP because the horse was feeling the tension in the stadium) and one can only wonder what kind of score they will get when they have no mistakes!

neutral milk hotel
Sep. 3, 2009, 01:16 PM
Venturing over from hunter/jumper, I thought the horse was amazing to watch! I do not know much about rollkur, although I've heard of it, and I can certainly see the difference between old dressage videos and modern ones. I did see his mistakes in the tempi changes. A similar debate was going on with John French's Rumba, who scored a perfect 100 in the $100,000 Hunter Derby; but the old fashioned posters felt the horse was far from ideal. The Europeans (Germans and Dutch) are breeding incredibly, freakishly athletic specialized horses. To me, it is just incredible to see a horse that CAN piaffe/passage/extend the way he does, he can use his body in every imaginable way. This might not be correct to everyone, but the judges seem to be rewarding this extravagant modern type.

Also - to the person who posted the photographs, I'm not sure all those people are jumping ahead! At that point in time when those horses are using themselves you need to give them all the freedom you can. If you were sitting up and back during takeoff, you would certainly be totally behind the motion over the top and the horses probably couldn't make it over an oxer. JMO of course.