Man Threatens to Execute Horses

[rosijet]

I'm just speechless...

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=122013&catid=339

Especially about this:

According to an incident report, "It would be done in public, he would kill one every day for a week on the front steps of the court house, at CSU and other public places. He would stab them in the belly three or four times, killing the foal and then he would bash the mare's brains in."

[FatPalomino]

People really, really suck.

[BuddyRoo]

Unreal. Seriously.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

Hopefully they'll have him taken into custody in the hopes that he's just nuts.

And then forget where they locked him up.

[nightsong]

And he "has to" kill these horses over a zoning violation; he hasn't cleaned up his property after being notified to do so. :confused: :sigh: :mad: He called the zoning department, leaving a threatening voicemail that alsosaid he would starve the horses because he didn't have any sheds to put hay in "because the courts were making him get rid of all buildings and trailers."

[Lori T]

Honestly, what is wrong with people? I hope the sheriff's office stays on top of this.

[equineartworks]

Wow, just wow. I think a court ordered psych eval is warranted, no?

[WaningMoon]

I certainly hope something is done to stop him from killing those horses. That is not in any way right. Nor is it right to tell the man what he can do with his property. Yes, I like a nice , neat looking property. Apparently he does not by the sounds of it. And being HIS property it should be up to HIM how he keeps it. As long as his animals are taken care of, he should be able to do as he pleases with his own land.

And it would not surprise me if these rules came into place long after he had kept his property in the said condition to appease richer neighbors.

[JanM]

Is this person even the property owner? I didn't see anything under his name on the Weld County property listings. What an idiot he is, and anyone who helps him. Too bad they didn't include a picture of the property, and I wonder how much room the horses actually have with all of the trailers and 'buildings' on it? Supposedly it's some kind of breeding operation, wonder what's going on with that?

I seriously doubt that this person ever applied for zoning variances or permits for anything. When I lived in Colorado there were always people moving into subdivisions or into the agricultural county areas and thinking that the covenants or zoning regs didn't apply to them.

Actually, he seems rather active in the zoning/county commissioner meeting area-he was on the agenda about a well permit and never showed up. I wonder what kind of trailers we're talking about here? Mobile homes? or Semi-trailers? A lot of places with bad wind and storm problems require that trailers be inspected because they have to have proper tiedowns (the tiedowns were called 'dead men' where I used to live) and Colorado certainly qualifies as a bad wind area. And if they're mobile homes I wonder how he keeps the floors from collapsing from the weight of the hay bales?

[greysandbays]

If the government makes it impossible for him to keep his horses on his property, he's got every right to have somebody come in and shoot them.

The other threats appear to have escalated from that and may or may not be plausible. I suspect the one quoted in OP is not plausible.

[gloriginger]

If the government makes it impossible for him to keep his horses on his property, he's got every right to have somebody come in and shoot them.


That seems a little extreme - all the government is "making" him do is build a proper hay structure, instead of using converted mobile homes??? I don't understand how one leads to the other....just put up a hay shelter, get rid of the ugly mobile homes and get on with life.


Has the whole world gone to seed?

[greysandbays]

If he hasn't got enough cash and can't get a loan, putting up a "proper hay structure" would be out of the question. If he's not willing to keep hay outside, then getting rid of the horses may be his best bet.

Has the whole world gone to seed? Yes. Everybody wants to stick their nose into everybody else's life and tell them what to do. That's not advanced civilization, it's tyranny. And when the government locks onto someone as the target of their tyranny, those someones first feel powerless, then become enraged, then do "something". Like throw tea into the harbor...or shoot their horses. It may be the only form of protest the old man thinks he has.

[rosijet]

Here's another article claiming the horses are part of an investment group.

http://www.greeleytribune.com/article/20090826/NEWS/908269990/1005/NONE&parentprofile=1001

[gloriginger]

If he can't afford to build a hay shelter he has no right owning 26 horses - and breeding them non the less.

Is it really fair that as a neighbor of this man one has to look at his crappy old mobile homes that he uses as hay structures- some people want to live in an asthetically pleasing world. The way I see it - if you want to live in a shithole with rusted old trailers and crap all over the place, then don't live in an area that clearly dictates you can't do that. Why does everyone else have to suffer because he won't follow the rules.

Tyranny is also a bit on the extreme side. Repeat, he has shitty old eyesoars of trailers - the goverment is simply telling him to build a appropriate hay shelter. The old man is throwing a temper tantrum - something he has a habit of doing.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

Getting rid of the horses by brutally murdering them is not acceptable. Please understand that that is the basis of our response.

[JSwan]

That seems a little extreme - all the government is "making" him do is build a proper hay structure, instead of using converted mobile homes??? I don't understand how one leads to the other....just put up a hay shelter, get rid of the ugly mobile homes and get on with life.


Has the whole world gone to seed?


If a mobile home is a satisfactory and stable enough structure for humans, then why is it inconceivable that a converted one be suitable for horses?

The guy may be a crochety old man who really dislikes people getting into his business. It's a stupid idea for a publicity stunt - but heck. He did get publicity.

Don't know what the whole story is - but there are all sorts of ways to take care of horses. And believe it or not - it's ok to have horses and not have the perfect equestrian property, complete with perfect fences, perfect pastures, and upscale barns.

Plenty of people use converted structures. There are even books written describing how to reuse materials or convert structures for livestock. The difference is the wealth and urban background of the readers of those books.

If you're poor or middle class - you're a dirtbag or crazy person.

If you're rich or "urban", you practically get an award for a creative or "green" design.

[Guilherme]

That seems a little extreme - all the government is "making" him do is build a proper hay structure, instead of using converted mobile homes??? I don't understand how one leads to the other....just put up a hay shelter, get rid of the ugly mobile homes and get on with life.


Has the whole world gone to seed?

Why should the government care about the quality of his hay sheds???

I've no quarrel with the basic concept of zoning and land use regulations, but it's really one of those parts of the political spectrum where "the squeeky wheel gets the oil" and where property rights are routinely raped, pillaged, burned, and looted (not necessarily in that order).

I also think they become an engine for "raising revenue" as the issuance of a building permit will quickly result in a visit from the assessor's office. Again, this is not necessarily bad but can quickly become a "stick" in the hands of a local bureaucrat to "beat" somebody who disagrees with a decision. In our county in the last Assessor's race it was a major issue.

As note, he can euthanize any of his horses for any reason he chooses (as long as he does not cross into the area of cruelty in his choice of methods).

None of this means he's sane, but none means he's insane, either.

G.

[arabhorse2]

Is it really fair that as a neighbor of this man one has to look at his crappy old mobile homes that he uses as hay structures- some people want to live in an asthetically pleasing world.

Said like a true suburbanite.

My barn is an old garage that I converted. It's certainly not 'aesthetically pleasing', but it's safe for my horses.

My neighbor has a beautiful Morton barn. Not once has she said anything about my structures being ugly, or that I need to change to fit her ideals of what's visually pleasing.

I wonder who was there first, the old man and his 'crappy' structures, or the people in their McMansions who now want to enjoy the country without all the nasty ickiness and unaesthetic things that really make up living in a rural area?

My guess is the old man was there first, and now all the suburban transplants are trying to get him to conform to what THEY want. Typical.

Move out to the country, and try to change it.

For all the suburbanites who think they want to move to the country, real rural living has dirt, noise, smells, and sometimes unaesthetic things. If you want quiet, scenic vistas where every house and property looks exactly the same, PLEASE stay in the suburbs!

I don't think he's going to gut the horses. I just think he's fed up, and this is his way of venting.

[greysandbays]

And you don't actually know he's going to drag 20+ horses to the court house steps and gut and bludgeon them. That sounds more like the rant of someone who feels helpless than a serious intention.

"[Your] response" is the "OMG, how dare he!!! He must be stopped because I/we love horsies!!!" that feeds right into his desire to feel he has some control over the situation.

If you wanted to diffuse his "protest", the response should be, "The law is the law. If the law makes it impossible for you to keep your horses, you may go ahead and shoot them. A bullet is considered a humane form of euthanasia, and as long as you properly dispose of the bodies, we don't have a problem with that. But if you go littering up public property with carcasses, then that's going to be a problem."

[Tamara in TN]

I'm just speechless...

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=122013&catid=339

Especially about this:

According to an incident report, "It would be done in public, he would kill one every day for a week on the front steps of the court house, at CSU and other public places. He would stab them in the belly three or four times, killing the foal and then he would bash the mare's brains in."


well...last I checked I can shoot and kill any of my animals that I choose at any time for any reason...and if I wanted to I could do it in full daylight with cameras rolling...

it would not be the smartest PR move in the world but it's hardly illegal where I live....

as for the all the other "stuff" as a local poster pointed out "dude is a few fries short of a happy meal"

and another mentioned horses cannot be "executed"

this is true as that is goofy AR wordings having no place in livestock care,custody and control

[JSwan]

Looks like the population has increased 30% since the last census in that county.

Also looks like it's mostly ag.

That much of an increase in an ag area means it's the urbanites coming in and bitching about the smell and noise.

[Vivace]

Or the trailers are still classified as trailers, and trailers are not allowed on the property in any shape or form, be them converted or not.

[JSwan]

True - and it's also likely everyone knew and it wasn't a big deal until a newcomer started bitching about it.

It happens everywhere. Existing rural residents are harassed and driven out by the urban refugees. Farmers or horse owners are accused of all sorts of things. We'll bring bird flue. Swine flu. Pollute the water. The buildings are ugly. There are smells. Roosters are loud. Tractors are loud. Someone's manure pile is 6 inches closer to the property line than is permitted.

Zoning complaints are typical. Can't find something legitimate to gripe about? Find an ordinance or obscure regulation and exploit it. Little guy doesn't stand a chance.

Obviously the guy is one beer short of a six pack. But I do know how the system works.. .and the livestock owner rarely stands a chance.

[gieriscm]

Stories like this are why I'm happy to live in a county with no zoning ordinances. Some of the new arrivals tried to get them passed last year, and were spanked firmly by the locals and the new arrivals who appreciate their freedom.

[eventmom]

Is it really fair that as a neighbor of this man one has to look at his crappy old mobile homes that he uses as hay structures- some people want to live in an asthetically pleasing world. The way I see it - if you want to live in a shithole with rusted old trailers and crap all over the place, then don't live in an area that clearly dictates you can't do that. Why does everyone else have to suffer because he won't follow the rules.
I find it incredibly disturbing that the american people have grown comfortable using the power of government to enforce such nonsense.
Watch out, they might decide they don't like you next.
And yes, this is the beginnings of tyranny.

[Alagirl]

well...last I checked I can shoot and kill any of my animals that I choose at any time for any reason...and if I wanted to I could do it in full daylight with cameras rolling...

it would not be the smartest PR move in the world but it's hardly illegal where I live....

as for the all the other "stuff" as a local poster pointed out "dude is a few fries short of a happy meal"

and another mentioned horses cannot be "executed"

this is true as that is goofy AR wordings having no place in livestock care,custody and control

While you may be legally allowed to kill an animal, even in public, the suggested method is - aside from repulsive - illegal, I am pretty sure.

I do find the idea that he thinks (or whatever) that after he dispatches the first horse in a public place in such manner he will be allowed to go home rather amusing tho. :lol:

[cowgirljenn]

Stories like this are why I'm happy to live in a county with no zoning ordinances. Some of the new arrivals tried to get them passed last year, and were spanked firmly by the locals and the new arrivals who appreciate their freedom.

The two times we've bought houses, we've made it very clear we wanted properties only in areas with no zoning, no restrictions, and NO home owners associations. Our first realtor thought we were nuts - every time we looked at a place, our first question was about restrictions and HOAs. She gave us a funny look each time - she couldn't wrap her mind around the idea of someone NOT wanting someone looking over their neighbors' shoulders telling them what to do.

Yeah, I hated all the trash at our neighbor's place. I hated it more when it blew into my pasture. But I also liked that if I wanted to, I could bring home 10 horses to hold for the rescue and no one could throw a fit and say I had more animals than allowed. And if I didn't feel like mowing my lawn, I didn't have to. And if I wanted to put up a fence, I didn't have to ask for permission.

[fivehorses]

"A person commits aggravated cruelty to animals if he or she knowingly tortures, needlessly mutilates, or needlessly kills an animal. Cruelty to animals is a class 1 misdemeanor and aggravated cruelty is class 6 felony; engaging in animal fighting is a class 5 felony."
I copied this from the emails sent in on the news site.

I always thought you could do whatever you wanted with your animals, as long as it wasn't abuse or inhumane.

Going off tangent. What if someone prefers their animals are put down after they are gone, so as to avoid them getting abused or neglected. Is this considered needlessly killing an animal.

I have set aside funds for my animals, but if a proper home or placement could not be found, I'd prefer them euthanized than potentially end up passed around or worse.

This law if it is truly one, didn't check it through, would make it seem illegal.

[tkhawk]

While the guy seems a bit on the nutty side-I doubt he actually means to go through with it. Don't know the whole story, but probably just an old timer mad with the regulations. Looks like the case has been going on 2007 and he has fought it and now they are sending him to jail for 90 days for that so he must have snapped. Going to jail for contempt of court??:confused:

I can understand zoning in heavily urban areas-otherwise it would be total chaos . But these fringe areas and rural areas, not really. I don't know, to me when you buy property, it means you should be free to do what you wan't within limits- you don't wan't your neighbour to start an adults only theme park or some such next door. But otherwise nothing worse than an urban zoning officer being in charge of zoning and compliance and telling a farmer/rural folks what to do and how he/she can operate their property.

[MSP]

I commiserate with this guy! Zoning is enough to make any normal person crazy! He sounds mad as hell and I agree he has every right to shoot his horses on his property but I seriously doubt he would get away with torturing them in public.

I have been zoned "out" of having the small farm of my dreams! But I still have two junk cars sitting in the yard, hopefully its a big eye sore to the developers and zoning board! ;)

We had no restrictions on our property when we bought it and was never notified when it was zoned. What happened to my rights?

[Plumcreek]

The area in question is in an old highway corridor of older farm and agriculture properties, and there are planty of not-very-pleasing sights related to ag business in that area. The area has undergone an influx of 'new ruralism' as larger parcels are divided for houses on the fringes of the northern expansion of the metro areas in Colo.

[anita m]

I feel so sorry for these horses. I hope they get the care they need.

[jetsmom]

I'd be curious to know what the zoning requirements were when the man bought his property. If it wasn't zoned, he has a good argument. If it was zoned, but he is violating the zoning ordinances, then he is in the wrong.

[JSwan]

The area in question is in an old highway corridor of older farm and agriculture properties, and there are planty of not-very-pleasing sights related to ag business in that area. The area has undergone an influx of 'new ruralism' as larger parcels are divided for houses on the fringes of the northern expansion of the metro areas in Colo.


That's what I figured. It's a pretty typical scenario.

The guy doesn't sound like a cheery happy old man, but putting him in jail for 90 days won't do his horses any favors.

Unless that's part of the plan. Jail him and then have the county raid the place and take the horses.

Then he really has nothing left, does he. Best he just sell out and make way for the McMansions.
:no:

[Threebars]

Is it really fair that as a neighbor of this man one has to look at his crappy old mobile homes that he uses as hay structures- some people want to live in an asthetically pleasing world. The way I see it - if you want to live in a shithole with rusted old trailers and crap all over the place, then don't live in an area that clearly dictates you can't do that.


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Oh wait - you're serious?

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Let me guess, you go out and follow your horses with those little 'doo-doo' bags, Roosters are only allowed to crow between the hours of 7am and 830AM, and neighbors are limited to 10 flies on their property at any one time.


I'm Far from condoning what this man is proposing, (I think it's pretty barbaric) but I think using an old trailer as hay storage is pretty damn smart.

If I could afford the commute to work, I'd be perfectly happy being surrounded by the sights and smells and sounds of the real country life - cowshit and green clover and all.

[lesson junkie]

I read the attached articles-the horses don't belong exclusively to him. If the other owners are not local, who speaks for protection of their property?

As far as land use, I live at the end of a long dirt road for a reason. I've gone to a lot of trouble and expense to live where I do. My worry isn't so much developments (though they can show up like mushrooms overnight) as much as industrial use like quarries, asphalt plants and huge hog and chicken farms-now I'd sure give you a big old hog farm lagoon just over the property line for a few land use outlines!

When it comes down to it, I don't want to own the whole state of NC, just my property and what's next to it-right?:winkgrin:

[farmgirl88]

We have a LOT of zoning issues here in CT, ALOT. There is a town about 10 min from here that is probably 80% or more agriculture. dairy farms, chickens and eggs, plants, you name it, they grow and raise it in the town. Everyone around here knows how that town operates and you can't drive through it without driving by a tractor on the other side of the road.

All the city people (urbaners) are comming out to the country because they say they like the pretty views, the fields, the peace and quiet and everything country. Well they buy a home around these farms and then their complaining about the cows and the cow smell and manure being used to fertilize fields and blah blah blah.

The town green is one of the last remaining ones in which the town still allows the local farmers to hay it and use it for agriculture use. its a big green and it looks like a big field surrounded by old houses. Well people usually ride their horses around the perimitter and the kids bring some cows out there to hand graze and practice for show and now all the urbaners who moved there odnt want to see any of these farm type animals out on "their" green. Well i say if you cant have the farm animals on an agriculturally based green, you shouldnt be able to walk your dog on it.

This town is full of some of the last remaining productive farms in our state and their always writing articles on how the town is so into agriculture and preserving open space. well just the other night i got invited to their town hall meeting because the urbaners were pressing a farming act on the farmers which would limit how much land they could use, how many animals they could have, and what they could and couldnt do with everything related to their farm because the urbaners were PO'd about everything related to the these farms.

I have never seen so many angry farmers and farm supporters in my life. I can say that if these fricken idiots get this passed....the manure is going to start flying...all over town....and im not kidding. it is going ot be one big riot act.

If these people come to live in the country they need to understand that these farmers use these fields and their land to make a living. this is what they do. you move to the country then you accept everything that goes along with living in the country. this is not for the faint of heart who dont like bugs, like their street lights, and dont like animals. These people dont even want to see tractors in the fields because "it ruins their scenic view".

i just cant believe what this world is comming to.

[farmgirl88]

If he can't afford to build a hay shelter he has no right owning 26 horses - and breeding them non the less.

Is it really fair that as a neighbor of this man one has to look at his crappy old mobile homes that he uses as hay structures- some people want to live in an asthetically pleasing world. The way I see it - if you want to live in a shithole with rusted old trailers and crap all over the place, then don't live in an area that clearly dictates you can't do that. Why does everyone else have to suffer because he won't follow the rules.

Tyranny is also a bit on the extreme side. Repeat, he has shitty old eyesoars of trailers - the goverment is simply telling him to build a appropriate hay shelter. The old man is throwing a temper tantrum - something he has a habit of doing.

The point is the government shouldnt dictate what you can and cant have on your property. its his property, hes using them, and they shouldnt be able to force him to get rid of them. Gauranteed no one had an issue with them until this looney birds who like to live in the perfect pretty little world showed up in town. Its everywhere. You cannot live somewhere without have the urban folk complain about something related to a farm.

Not everyone lives in a little pretty house with landscaping, perfectly manacured laws, and big fancy barns and shelters to put things in. it doesnt work that way out in the country. people work hard for aliving doing what most dont want to do and use what they can to get by.

I can understand that some people dont like it, but you are no one to say what he can and cant do with his property. im sorry but this is America and people should be able to do what they want on their property in terms of having trailers or not...they paid for the property and they worked hard for it. they want to have trailers....so be it. no no-nothing yuppy would be telling me i couldnt use a structure.

Gauranteed those laws never existed until the yuppies came to town and i dont think others are suffering from some trailers being used as hay storage. get over it. this aint the city.

[myvanya]

My completely not organized thoughts on this:
my issue with this is that if he has a problem with the government he needs to take it up with them in a manner that will actualy be effective. I agree with the concept that the government should typically butt out, however, given the satelite views of the area, the only place with a large number of horses shouldn't have as many horses as it has- there isn't adequeate shelter given Colorado weather among other issues (like lack of turnout space for that many horses) So, if he disagrees with the government asking him to clean up his property he should have taken it up with them via the proper procedures so he would have half a chance of being taken seriously. If you make threats you will be treated like a child as that is what you are acting like. If you act like a mature responsible adult, you have a prayer of achieving what you want. Ultimately though, if you don't have the money to build a barn (read basic shelter to cover hay, not fancy barn with stalls and indoor arena), why did you breed or acquire 26 horses? It is common sense. I don't expect his farm to be immaculate but I do expect him to be able to adequately care for every animal he owns. If cleaning up his property is such a hardship for him, then he isn't in a position to care for 26 horses. Putting them down should not be his first response to that problem- I would think that if he puts the welfare of his horses first then he would want to try to provide good homes for them first.

In short, he is throwing a tantrum because the government is asking him to do something he feels they shouldn't. If the zoning laws were there when he bought the property he needs to follow them. If they were put in place after that, he still needs to follow them- he should know they were put in place and if he doesn't like them he can live elsewhere. If you own an animal you become responsible for it; part of that is ensuring that you have the financial means to care for it and if you don't making sure it gets to a better home or putting it down humanely. A bullet is hardly a humane form of euthanasia for a horse (because unless it is a really large caliber it cannot ensure a quick death. If the caliber is large enough to guarantee a quick death, there are very few marksmen capable of being accurate with such a large weapon- just what I have seen. I would only use a bullet to euthanise a horse as a last resort)

[JSwan]

You know what I find obscene?

Arable land being cut up into small, useless parcels with gigantic, ostentatious, ugly McMansions completely devoid of any architectural style or authenticity.l Houses that use enormous amounts of power and water.

Cheap plastic houses filled with cheap plastic people who drive cheap plastic cars and buy cheap plastic food; yakking and texting incessantly on cheap plastic phones.

Conspicuous overconsumption by people who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.


Bah.

If a fancy architect had designed the mobile homes to be horse shelters he'd win a freakin' award for it.

[Dispatcher]

If he can't afford to build a hay shelter he has no right owning 26 horses - and breeding them non the less.

Is it really fair that as a neighbor of this man one has to look at his crappy old mobile homes that he uses as hay structures- some people want to live in an asthetically pleasing world. The way I see it - if you want to live in a shithole with rusted old trailers and crap all over the place, then don't live in an area that clearly dictates you can't do that. Why does everyone else have to suffer because he won't follow the rules.

Tyranny is also a bit on the extreme side. Repeat, he has shitty old eyesoars of trailers - the goverment is simply telling him to build a appropriate hay shelter. The old man is throwing a temper tantrum - something he has a habit of doing.

Where did you see pictures? I haven't seen them yet.

[MistyBlue]

Zoming issues brought on by citiots have driven quite a few people crazy. One guy actually built a bullet proof dozer and levelled half of his town! :eek:
The press called it the Killdozer, it was horrifying. All over zoning problems.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LSDmqHf6e4

And people wonder why so many horse folks get involved in zoning issues.

This man is pissed, obviously. He's also being a giant arse about it too though. One of the greatest allies a person can have in a zoning issue is the local farming and equine and cattle associations. All will have had massive experience (and usually massive success) battling zoning.

I would imagine the issue could be that a mobil home is a possible/probably septic hazard. Even if you're not having someone live in it, you *could* and that will require waste disposal/septic.
if it's not a vision/aesthetic issue for the zoning...possibly a trade off of mobile homes for shipping containers or truck trailers? If it's on tires, no extra property tax for buildings.

[Threebars]

You know what I find obscene?

Arable land being cut up into small, useless parcels with gigantic, ostentatious, ugly McMansions completely devoid of any architectural style or authenticity.l Houses that use enormous amounts of power and water.

Cheap plastic houses filled with cheap plastic people who drive cheap plastic cars and buy cheap plastic food; yakking and texting incessantly on cheap plastic phones.

Conspicuous overconsumption by people who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.


Bah.

If a fancy architect had designed the mobile homes to be horse shelters he'd win a freakin' award for it.


*Loud applause and whistles*

Hear hear!

[MistyBlue]

A bullet is hardly a humane form of euthanasia for a horse (because unless it is a really large caliber it cannot ensure a quick death. If the caliber is large enough to guarantee a quick death, there are very few marksmen capable of being accurate with such a large weapon- just what I have seen. I would only use a bullet to euthanise a horse as a last resort)
Gunshot is the only immediate form of euthanasia allowed for livestock. It's more humane than any other form, just not as socially acceptable for people who aren't comfortable around firearms.
A .22 works just fine if placed correctly. A .38 is better, and that's a small caliber. A shot to the brain is instantaneous, can't be more quick than that. :) Accuracy is easy for putting down livestock, it isn't being done from a distance. It's placement, not aim.
But it is perfectly understandable that many to most people are extremely uncomfortable with the thought of euthanasia by gunshot. :yes:

[Dispatcher]

You know what I find obscene?

Arable land being cut up into small, useless parcels with gigantic, ostentatious, ugly McMansions completely devoid of any architectural style or authenticity.l Houses that use enormous amounts of power and water.

Cheap plastic houses filled with cheap plastic people who drive cheap plastic cars and buy cheap plastic food; yakking and texting incessantly on cheap plastic phones.

Conspicuous overconsumption by people who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.


Bah.

If a fancy architect had designed the mobile homes to be horse shelters he'd win a freakin' award for it.

That's the way I thought 40 years ago. And still do. Glad to hear the circle is coming around again.

[JSwan]

I agree with MB -

Small caliber works fine. Very humane.

Any of y'all in Colorado going to offer to help care for his horses while he's in jail for 90 days?

[tkhawk]

Both sides of my family are from farming . A big chunk still are. I just love the old farming scenery. When I was growing up, we still had oxen pulling ploughs and carts and then tractors became all the rage along with harvestors and all kind of machinery. It was just so cool.

I think people with absolutely no exposure to the rural life, just move there with an image of what it should be and then wan't to change it to suit their view .

I can actually understand the old man's frustration. If somebody came to my grandfather and told him what structure he can and he can't put up in his fields, he would probably chase him out of there. Those old folks didn't suffer fools gladly. But nowadays, the system/rules/regulations seem to be more important than the purpose behind them. It is almost like we are expected to be some emotionless zombies and do what we are told.

The guy seems to have an ongoing dispute for over two years and I can't believe they are jailing him for 90 days for contempt of court for a zoning violation. It is like the other lady whose dogs were seized for a zoning violation. The guy is just making apoint, because he is angry, doesn't know what to do and looks like he is going to jail because of a stupid code violation. I would be mad too.

I love the smell of horse manure and cow dung and tractors and goats and roosters in the morning (I can sleep through anything though !:lol:) . I also love seeing those old rustic , broken down buildings. Way better looking than any inner city broken down areas. Just sad that people move out and instead of doing research and figuring out what farm life is , are now annoyed and wan't to run out the rural folks-maybe they looked at a movie and thought cows and horses don't produce manure -I don't know, this trend is not right. Especially these kind of folks, they probably just know what is right and think that will get them through-probably why they are so mad by the stupidity of it all and are so mad and don't know what to do.

Just sad..

[JSwan]

B It is almost like we are expected to be some emotionless zombies and do what we are told.

.


Yup. A nation of homogenized, pasteurized, shrink wrapped microwave and diswasher safe made in China, plastic people living in plastic houses driving plastic cars yatta yatta....

[Dispatcher]

Yup. A nation of homogenized, pasteurized, shrink wrapped microwave and diswasher safe made in China, plastic people living in plastic houses driving plastic cars yatta yatta....

That is SO 1960's!!! Except for the microwaves. I LOVE it! Makes me feel like a kid again.

[Guilherme]

Yup. A nation of homogenized, pasteurized, shrink wrapped microwave and diswasher safe made in China, plastic people living in plastic houses driving plastic cars yatta yatta....

You've been to Celebration, FL too?!?!?!?! :)

Lots of people say they "love the country." What they really mean is that they are in love with "the country." They love an idealized view of country life without unpleasant smells, flies, inoperable machinery, tractors on roads, unbathed field workers in restaurants, etc. To ensure that reality matches their fantasy they look to zoning and other measures to require others to accept their views of life.

Fortunately we don't have too much of that around us, but I fear that it will come as more "city slickers" move out to our area.

G.

[JSwan]

That is SO 1960's!!! Except for the microwaves. I LOVE it! Makes me feel like a kid again.


:lol::lol:

It's pretty scary when a strait laced starched shirt wound too tight kind of person (me) starts sounding like a hippie!

I was born before the moon-landing - that must be why.

[Dispatcher]

:lol::lol:

It's pretty scary when a strait laced starched shirt wound too tight kind of person (me) starts sounding like a hippie!

I was born before the moon-landing - that must be why.

Nah, not scary. Come on over to our side. Peace, Love, Heal the world.

Except for the bastard who wants to murder his horses.

[City Ponies]

My parents own 20 (soon to be 40) acres of "prime" farmland near 5 minutes from a major lake, and surrounded by "good ol' boys" farm families - 1000 acres in either direction. They are essentially the hole in the donut. No developing for probably another 20-30 years given the local census and population rates. They turned an old, moderate tobacco farm, into a gorgeous farmette - the kind Urbanites dream off. Complete with custom made 14x16 stalls, 4 post rail fencing, no climb gates, water in every pasture, hay storage for 400 bales. Etc etc.

We are from NJ, and our "yankee" friends "oooh and ahhhh". They could make a fortune off it to some idiotic transplant who wants pretty. We come from farm families, that died out in the 1970's in NJ. But we enjoy farm/middle of no where life. Any urbanite who comes to that property will have a rude awakening to the neigboring cows at 6 am, and the donkey that follows them, the unless amounts of rampant hunting dogs, and gunshots. And the "strangers" that show up to fish the pond. It's staying in the family :)

My fiance's parents own 200 acres with nothing more than a gravel road and a semi-custom built cabin. Just ... LAND. Just 20 miles from my parents. But in a booming area of NC, that in 10 years will be the new Raleigh/Durham suburbia. When he inherits he's auctioning to the highest bidder. Not because we need the money, but because who wants neighbors??

As to asthetically pleasing comment... that's what trees are good for!

OK, I can do without microwaves, don't mind heating up on the stove, but I DO need the dishwasher to clean up!! Oh and my plastic laptop.... because we all need COTH of course!

[tkhawk]

Nah, not scary. Come on over to our side. Peace, Love, Heal the world.

Except for the bastard who wants to murder his horses.

Nah guys who want to kill their horses/animals, don't go around posting flyers about it. The guy just seems to have been pushed beyond his endurance limit and in two weeks looks like if he doesn't take down all his mobile units, he will spend 90 days in jail. Just lashing out in rage at the stupidity of it all-that he has to go to jail because he has a few structures in "his" property.

He is lashing out and sadly is giving out ammunition to the city who are painting him as a crazy fool. If he wanted them dead, he can just sell them to the meat man or slaughter them himself and eat them if he wants to-I don't think that is illegal.

Looks like he has lost all his avenues and is just trying to make a point-albeit in a very stupid, idiotic way that only seems to hurt his cause. But when you are emotionally distraught, that is what you do. Who knows his story, how long he has been there, is the city/county doing this so that they can get in more urban folks and build their tax base?? But no animal abuser goes around posting flyers asking to hire hitmen to shoot an animal in court-they can come in many forms, even some sweet lady who is hoarding and starving and oblivious to it-not this way. He maybe be off- but I work in a big corporation and the stupidity and mundane tasks you do just because you have to do them is simply absurd.

[rosijet]

I found this on the Weld County web site:

http://www.co.weld.co.us/departments/planning/code/code_mobilehome.html

I assume this is the referenced violation. I'm also assuming the property in question is zoned Ag.

[Dispatcher]

Nah guys who want to kill their horses/animals, don't go around posting flyers about it. The guy just seems to have been pushed beyond his endurance limit and in two weeks looks like if he doesn't take down all his mobile units, he will spend 90 days in jail. Just lashing out in rage at the stupidity of it all-that he has to go to jail because he has a few structures in "his" property.

He is lashing out and sadly is giving out ammunition to the city who are painting him as a crazy fool. If he wanted them dead, he can just sell them to the meat man or slaughter them himself and eat them if he wants to-I don't think that is illegal.

Looks like he has lost all his avenues and is just trying to make a point-albeit in a very stupid, idiotic way that only seems to hurt his cause. But when you are emotionally distraught, that is what you do. Who knows his story, how long he has been there, is the city/county doing this so that they can get in more urban folks and build their tax base?? But no animal abuser goes around posting flyers asking to hire hitmen to shoot an animal in court-they can come in many forms, even some sweet lady who is hoarding and starving and oblivious to it-not this way. He maybe be off- but I work in a big corporation and the stupidity and mundane tasks you do just because you have to do them is simply absurd.

I'd like to believe that this guy has no intentions of actually following through. But, nowadays, people do unbelievalbe things. On almost a daily basis when reading the news, I am dumbfounded by what humans do. To themselves, to others, and to animals.

I'd like to see some pictures of his place. Another poster described the grounds but I don't know if that was the poster's mental image or if actual photos were shown.

[jetsmom]

I'd like to believe that this guy has no intentions of actually following through. But, nowadays, people do unbelievalbe things. On almost a daily basis when reading the news, I am dumbfounded by what humans do. To themselves, to others, and to animals.

I'd like to see some pictures of his place. Another poster described the grounds but I don't know if that was the poster's mental image or if actual photos were shown.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Lochbuie,+CO&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&split=0&gl=us&ei=t12VSsDrKJG0NtGmrPoH&ll=40.039392,-104.733548&spn=0.001398,0.002411&t=h&z=19


According to the regulation a previous posted linked, mobile homes are not allowed to be used for temporary storage since 2001 (if I am reading that correctly.)

That area doesn't look like there are a bunch of McMansions to me. But he has a bunch of mobile homes.

[Dispatcher]

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Lochbuie,+CO&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&split=0&gl=us&ei=t12VSsDrKJG0NtGmrPoH&ll=40.039392,-104.733548&spn=0.001398,0.002411&t=h&z=19


According to the regulation a previous posted linked, mobile homes are not allowed to be used for temporary storage since 2001 (if I am reading that correctly.)

That area doesn't look like there are a bunch of McMansions to me. But he has a bunch of mobile homes.

What an odd looking set up

[myvanya]

google maps sattelite view (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=lochbuie,+co&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=28.805654,45.615234&ie=UTF8&ll=40.039384,-104.733811&spn=0.000848,0.001392&t=h&z=19)

Jswan and mistyblue- The reason I prefer injection over rifle for euth is that with small calibers the placement within the region of the brain cannot guarantee death. If you read any biopsych book you will read about instances of situations in which a person or animal has survived with small objects (or sometimes larger ones) imbedded in the brain. So, I am perfectly comfortable with firearms and am quite accurate with one, but would avoid using one to euthanize an animal. I am aware of enough situations of people and animals surviving gunshots that I would not feel this would guarantee death; especially not a .22 or a .38. After all, my sister survived a 9mm shot to her spine at short range; different scenario yes, but the point is guns are partially as dangerous as they are because people do not understand their power or their lack of effectiveness for instantaneous death.

I grew up on a small farm and working on a dairy farm that were not beatiful groomed areas, however, there is a difference between a property that is not immaculate and beautiful and a property that suggests a lack of abillity to adequately care for animals.

For those lashing out at developments- looking at where he lives, I doubt that urban development is the problem; maybe nearby, but not where he is :) Doesn't look like prime mcmansion territory.

I agree he should be able to do what he wants, BUT, there are zoning laws where he is; he needs to follow them. If he doesn't like them he doesn't have to live there. I fail to see how having trailers on his property is such a big deal either way. I don't see how removing them should be so terrible and I don't see how having them there is so terrible. What I take issue with is how he is handling the situation, as threatening to shoot your horses in a public setting for no reason other than anger at the government seems not only somewhat insane (given that the government has no vested interest in the life of his horses), but also completely ridiculous.

[greysandbays]

Jswan and mistyblue- The reason I prefer injection over rifle for euth is that with small calibers the placement within the region of the brain cannot guarantee death. If you read any biopsych book you will read about instances of situations in which a person or animal has survived with small objects (or sometimes larger ones) imbedded in the brain. So, I am perfectly comfortable with firearms and am quite accurate with one, but would avoid using one to euthanize an animal. I am aware of enough situations of people and animals surviving gunshots that I would not feel this would guarantee death; especially not a .22 or a .38. After all, my sister survived a 9mm shot to her spine at short range; different scenario yes, but the point is guns are partially as dangerous as they are because people do not understand their power or their lack of effectiveness for instantaneous death.



The idea isn't to "imbed" the small caliber bullet in the horse's brain -- the idea is for the bullet to penetrate the skull and ricochet around in there until the horse's brain is completely scrambled. (Which is accomplished before the sound of the gunshot even fades away.)

Some friends of mine had a pony chemically euthanized and when the man of the family went out with the backhoe several hours later to bury it, the pony was still breathing.

So it's not like you are touting the perfect over the sufficent. You are touting something that works most of the time but can go wrong over ... something else that works most of the time but can go wrong.

Hunters have been killing game (and people have been killing each other) on a routine basis with firearms for several hundred years. To say that you can't get something quickly dead with with a firearm when you go to reasonable care to make that happen is just plain silly.

[JanM]

Apparently from previous postings the law about mobile homes has been in effect since 1981, so it's nothing new. And also from articles on here he doesn't actually own the property-so who owns it and allows a tenant with all of the these zoning violations anyway? And if the horses are owned by an investment group (as the article on here speculates) and he does kill any or all of them then I bet he'll be in more trouble too-unless the investment group and property owner are actually him under some kind of corporate front or business name.

[JSwan]

What an odd looking set up

Meh.

Not my cup of tea.

But not a hell hole.

For folks ready to string the guy up for OMG having a zoning violation - better make sure your deck isn't two inches the wrong way to the right, or your manure pile isn't too close to the road.

Eventually you'll have some moronic neighbor who decides to run you out and they'll make your life a living hell until you leave or are bankrupted by legal bills.

Karma's a bitch.

[macmtn]

You know what I find obscene?

Arable land being cut up into small, useless parcels with gigantic, ostentatious, ugly McMansions completely devoid of any architectural style or authenticity.l Houses that use enormous amounts of power and water.

Cheap plastic houses filled with cheap plastic people who drive cheap plastic cars and buy cheap plastic food; yakking and texting incessantly on cheap plastic phones.

Conspicuous overconsumption by people who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.


Bah.

If a fancy architect had designed the mobile homes to be horse shelters he'd win a freakin' award for it.

Yep...spot on there.

[JSwan]

You have no idea what you're talking about and this post makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

You cannot possibly be proficient and accurate with firearms if you cannot even describe models, calibers or their use correctly. And your sister surviving a 9mm round doesn't qualify, and neither is having a biopsych book on your shelf.

And don't bother trying to argue with me because I can tell you don't know what you're talking about.




Jswan and mistyblue- The reason I prefer injection over rifle for euth is that with small calibers the placement within the region of the brain cannot guarantee death. If you read any biopsych book you will read about instances of situations in which a person or animal has survived with small objects (or sometimes larger ones) imbedded in the brain. So, I am perfectly comfortable with firearms and am quite accurate with one, but would avoid using one to euthanize an animal. I am aware of enough situations of people and animals surviving gunshots that I would not feel this would guarantee death; especially not a .22 or a .38. After all, my sister survived a 9mm shot to her spine at short range; different scenario yes, but the point is guns are partially as dangerous as they are because people do not understand their power or their lack of effectiveness for instantaneous death.

[myvanya]

The idea isn't to "imbed" the small caliber bullet in the horse's brain -- the idea is for the bullet to penetrate the skull and ricochet around in there until the horse's brain is completely scrambled. (Which is accomplished before the sound of the gunshot even fades away.)

Some friends of mine had a pony chemically euthanized and when the man of the family went out with the backhoe several hours later to bury it, the pony was still breathing.

So it's not like you are touting the perfect over the sufficent. You are touting something that works most of the time but can go wrong over ... something else that works most of the time but can go wrong.

Hunters have been killing game (and people have been killing each other) on a routine basis with firearms for several hundred years. To say that you can't get something quickly dead with with a firearm when you go to reasonable care to make that happen is just plain silly.


http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/livestock/horses/facts/info_euthanasia.htm (http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/livestock/horses/facts/info_euthanasia.htm)

[MSP]

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Lochbuie,+CO&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&split=0&gl=us&ei=t12VSsDrKJG0NtGmrPoH&ll=40.039392,-104.733548&spn=0.001398,0.002411&t=h&z=19


According to the regulation a previous posted linked, mobile homes are not allowed to be used for temporary storage since 2001 (if I am reading that correctly.)

That area doesn't look like there are a bunch of McMansions to me. But he has a bunch of mobile homes.

Doesn't mean developers don't have their sight on this area.

Located just 25 miles northeast of Downtown Denver on the edge of the eastern Colorado plains. A small town atmosphere with a growing population makes Lochbuie an ideal place to live, work and play. As of the 2000 census, there were 2,049 people, 643 households, and 518 families residing in the town. The demographics of the town are rapidly changing, though, as the town enjoys a steady, healthy growth. Now, at the end of 2005, Lochbuie has more than 1,200 homes with a population approaching 4,000 people and it is one of the 10 fastest growing towns in the state. In addition to being a residential center, the town has more than 100 acres of recently zoned and annexed prime retail and industrial property available for development as well as some 60 acres of municipal use and recreational land in the planning stages of development.


Sounds a lot like where I live. Right now it doesn't look like much but first came the zoning pushed by developers. Next comes the building; when the economy is well again!

This guy may certainly be in the wrong but I think it is also very wrong for property owners to get steam rolled over by greed.

myvanya, I would guess this guy can remove all the shelters he has and build a grand barn that the developers will find acceptable but maybe he doesn't have the money.

[Alagirl]

Arable land being cut up into small, useless parcels with gigantic, ostentatious, ugly McMansions completely devoid of any architectural style or authenticity.l Houses that use enormous amounts of power and water.

Cheap plastic houses filled with cheap plastic people who drive cheap plastic cars and buy cheap plastic food; yakking and texting incessantly on cheap plastic phones.


I'm a Barbie girl in a Barbie world, life in plastic, it's fantastic...


:cool:I am so sorry, I could not resist:lol:

[sidepasser]

I could tell a story about a client, a 22 and a dead friend, but in the PC world, the wording would be so UN PC that I'd be kicked to the curb..

suffice it to say: A well placed 22 will drop a horse just as effectively as it will drop a human. Quick, painless and fast.

While I don't agree with the old man's choice of venting/anger, tirade or threat - I do recognize that he may be pushed to the wall. While I don't particularly care for his present set up, my question is:

Are the horses well cared for? Plenty to eat? GOT HAY?

If so, in this day and time with all the starving horses out there, I'm satisfied that he may be doing the best he can with what he has to work with.

I couldn't afford to build a new shop to store lumber in, a man called me and gave me a 53 ft. trailer that he was going to scrap. Nothing wrong with it, it is dry and and even wired for electric. I sure didn't turn it down and it has served it's purpose very well over the last 2 years. One day when I get enough lumber together and so forth, I will get the new shop built and then remove the trailer (give it to someone else). For the time being, it's ugly, but it works rather well.

Sometimes one has to work with what is at hand and my horses are happy, sound, well fed, have turnout and look great. Who cares what I store lumber in? Perhaps the zoning folks but they can't see the trailer and if they complain, they are welcome to come build me a new shop. My goodness aren't there enough things to worry about when it comes to horse care than what is used to store hay in? At least the man HAS HAY.

[Bluey]

---"Originally Posted by JSwan
Arable land being cut up into small, useless parcels with gigantic, ostentatious, ugly McMansions completely devoid of any architectural style or authenticity.l Houses that use enormous amounts of power and water.

Cheap plastic houses filled with cheap plastic people who drive cheap plastic cars and buy cheap plastic food; yakking and texting incessantly on cheap plastic phones."---

I say those people that build Mc Mansions or are plastic people have their rights too to do that and be that, just as others have their rights to what they want, as long as there is no direct harm to anyone.
To have some structures there that others don't like to look at is NO reason to take him to jail, I don't think.:eek:

The question here is not what is done there, but that each one should have the right to do in their place what they want, even if the neighbor doesn't like it.

The fellow is rude and rough and came with rude and rough answers and threats to those that were running over his rights as he saw them.

Too bad the horses are caught in the middle.:no:

[Plumcreek]

Zoming issues brought on by citiots have driven quite a few people crazy. One guy actually built a bullet proof dozer and levelled half of his town! :eek:
The press called it the Killdozer, it was horrifying. All over zoning problems.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LSDmqHf6e4



The above was also in Colorado. It was spectacular.

Lochbuie is on the northern edge of the ever-expanding Denver Intl Airport commerce/commuter zone.

[twobays]

---"Originally Posted by JSwan
Arable land being cut up into small, useless parcels with gigantic, ostentatious, ugly McMansions completely devoid of any architectural style or authenticity.l Houses that use enormous amounts of power and water.

Cheap plastic houses filled with cheap plastic people who drive cheap plastic cars and buy cheap plastic food; yakking and texting incessantly on cheap plastic phones."---

I say those people that build Mc Mansions or are plastic people have their rights too to do that and be that, just as others have their rights to what they want, as long as there is no direct harm to anyone.
To have some structures there that others don't like to look at is NO reason to take him to jail, I don't think.:eek:

The question here is not what is done there, but that each one should have the right to do in their place what they want, even if the neighbor doesn't like it.

The fellow is rude and rough and came with rude and rough answers and threats to those that were running over his rights as he saw them.

Too bad the horses are caught in the middle.:no:

Great post, I totally agree.

[JSwan]

The above was also in Colorado. It was spectacular.

Lochbuie is on the northern edge of the ever-expanding Denver Intl Airport commerce/commuter zone.


That's what it looked like to me. Also looks like lots of smaller parcels on either side of him. If anyone is curious about that zoom out on that image jetsmom was so kind to link to. He's becoming surrounded by newcomers.

Having seen what happens to such people in my own state, I can well imagine that he is being cornered. It is intentional and there is no way to fight it.

That does not excuse any violent, illegal or rude behavior on his part.... but I think I understand him a little.

Like sidepasser - the only thing that would concern me would be the condition of the horses. If they are cared for properly - that speaks volumes to me. Even if he does not have swanky digs.

Sidepasser - I am sorry about your friend. Yes, a .22 is lethal. We've had to dispatch livestock and wildlife here and regardless of the protestations posted - a firearm is safe, effective, and lethal. And very humane. But it is terrible that anyone would use one to harm themselves, hurt or kill others out of anger or malice, and that there are accidents.

[Dispatcher]

The above was also in Colorado. It was spectacular.

Lochbuie is on the northern edge of the ever-expanding Denver Intl Airport commerce/commuter zone.

Some days I wish I had one of those to drive into work.......

Where the hell did he get that machine???

[MistyBlue]

Dispatcher, he actually built that dozer himself in a boarded up garage. :eek:
It was so effective that afterwards they had to cut it open with blowtorches to get him out of it.

[LexInVA]

Some days I wish I had one of those to drive into work.......

Where the hell did he get that machine???

All you need is a season of the A-Team and you got all sorts of wonderfully destructive things you can put together in your garage.

[jetsmom]

Doesn't mean developers don't have their sight on this area.



Sounds a lot like where I live. Right now it doesn't look like much but first came the zoning pushed by developers. Next comes the building; when the economy is well again!

This guy may certainly be in the wrong but I think it is also very wrong for property owners to get steam rolled over by greed.

myvanya, I would guess this guy can remove all the shelters he has and build a grand barn that the developers will find acceptable but maybe he doesn't have the money.



The ordinance has been in effect since 1981...If he is being steam rollered over by developers, then that's the slowest steam rolling I've ever seen...

[greysandbays]

The ordinance has been in effect since 1981...If he is being steam rollered over by developers, then that's the slowest steam rolling I've ever seen...

There are ordinances that are "in effect" and then there are ordinances that are In Effect. My county has an ordinance that no livestock (including horses) may be kept within 1000 of a lakeshore. It's been "in effect" for close to twenty years, but what it really means is "unless somebody complains, we won't go looking for violations".

We have lots and lots and lots of lakes and it's pretty darn hard to get 1000 feet away from one. So far, everybody turns a blind eye, but all it would take would be one disgruntled citiot with a bug up their butt about "zoning violations", all icky-poo about smells/whatever, or desirous of developing a property -- and the crackdown would begin.

[FatPalomino]

Lochbuie is on the northern edge of the ever-expanding Denver Intl Airport commerce/commuter zone.

Craziness. I cant believe it's expanding out there, just there this afternoon. I tell friend I think from DIA east should be annexed to Kansas ;)

This thread makes me think about living in an HOA. We've found one we like, next to a horse set-up, but.....

We're in "open" zoning here, and it's fantastic. But we found out our neighbor's huge 2 story addition was done without building permits. His house was foreclosed and now under contract with another buyer, who has a headache and a half dealing with that. I don't think the county's even pursuing the person who built it (homeowner) and they definatly aren't sending him to jail for it.

It sounds to me like the man in question has a lot more bagagge than we know about.

[Plumcreek]

This guy has made the Denver evening network news two nights in a row now. They just talk about his plans to kill the horses, not about the zoning issue details.

Nearby areas have major produce crop fields tended by migrant workers. The trailers the workers live in are a lot worse than the photos of this guy's property.

[nightsong]

You folks honestly think that being served with a zoning violation notice in 2007 makes it okay to "stab them in the belly three or four times, killing the foal and then he would bash the mare's brains in" to 24 horses and starve them too?

[LLDM]

Wait. Let me get this straight. It's not his property and they are not his horses? W.T.F. ? I don't get how anyone can defend him in any case. But then again, I don't get how anyone could send him to jail either. Because, well, it's not his property and they are not his horses.

I am obviously missing something.

SCFarm

[JanM]

My personal guess is that he does own the property (because he's applied for permits before as the owner) but under a trust or corporate or other business name, or else I didn't search correctly. My big question is that if he has enough money to buy and breed all of these horses why doesn't he build a storage building? Even old mobile homes cost money for purchase, moving and set up-or is he another person that thinks no one can tell him what to do and is going to kill the horses to prove to everyone that he is in charge?

[Dispatcher]

You folks honestly think that being served with a zoning violation notice in 2007 makes it okay to "stab them in the belly three or four times, killing the foal and then he would bash the mare's brains in" to 24 horses and starve them too?

I'm pretty sure no one on this board thinks that

[spurgirl]

:lol::lol:Funny, The first group of development in that direction has names like "Arabian Drive, "Appaloosa Road", "Shetland Drive", or something to that effect (only on my first cup of coffee)...It looks like the area is somewhat horsey, some of those properties look to have barns, etc., around them.

Perhaps this is just a nasty old man, or just someone who does not want to follow the existing rules??? Could also be "small town politics", perhaps he rubbed someone the wrong way...Who knows!! I don't really know, but to threaten to execute horses, in such a disgusting way, well, that's just gross.

Having fought a recent threatened zone change myself in CT, it can be very stressful. McMansion proponents, and their wealthy friends, can be very daunting. We won the first round, but boy, the weather sure is very cold on my road these days....But that's OK, with "friends" like that, who needs enemies?

[greysandbays]

My big question is that if he has enough money to buy and breed all of these horses why doesn't he build a storage building? Even old mobile homes cost money for purchase, moving and set up-or is he another person that thinks no one can tell him what to do and is going to kill the horses to prove to everyone that he is in charge?

Old mobile homes go for peanuts (sometimes even free) around here. At least three or four times a year, our local paper will have adds for "Free mobile home, you move it". Some clever guy who had some equipment could move a mobile home quite a ways for nothing but the cost of the gas.

I was offered one for free if I'd pay the mover's fee of $300 to get it off the lot it was on. I passed because something somebody said spooked me off the deal -- and I didn't really have any place to put it that would be much of an advantage to have it.

Getting rid of them, however, would cost the guy some serious coin -- even if he didn't replace them with anything.

[myvanya]

I could tell a story about a client, a 22 and a dead friend, but in the PC world, the wording would be so UN PC that I'd be kicked to the curb..

suffice it to say: A well placed 22 will drop a horse just as effectively as it will drop a human. Quick, painless and fast.



I absolutley agree with you; I was never arguing that one wouldn't. What I do take issue with is someone thinking that it is the easiest and safest form of euthanasia, because arguably, it isn't. The key words in your story are "well placed." I would have great difficulty finding a person I would trust to place a bullet that well 100% of the time. There also are chances for ricochet, as well as the unfortunate chance that you *could* miss where you were aiming for and cause the horse to exsanguinate instead of killing it quickly along with the potential for other accidents if the person using the firearm is not trained. Once again, I am NOT anti-gun- I just think that there are better ways to get rid of a horse whether you mean to kill it or just need it off your property like may be the case for this guy. I really find it strange that some people are taking issue with that.
I don't think that using a gun for euthanasia is always a bad idea- I just prefer injection if it is available. I can name at least one situation in which I would have used a gun to put down a horse if given the opportunity. However, I don't think this situation calls for that. Inability to take care of your horses or anger over a zoning violation does not justify killing your horses, or abusing them as he has threatened.


Even if this is the neighbors carrying out a grudge against him, I fail to see how that makes threatening violence against his animals justified. People are far more likely to take him seriously if he fights it rationally and properly instead of putting himself in contempt of court and essentially throwing a temper tantrum and making threats. Developments or no developments, bad neighbors or no bad neighbors, people generally do not seem to take threats and drama as a valid form of argument.

[rosijet]

Updated news article:

http://www.9news.com/rss/article.aspx?storyid=122079

[myvanya]

So he is just wanting to euthanize them, but somehow stabbing beating them in public doesn't sound like that to me. Neither does "executing them in protest." A really great guy from the sound of things; just your average farmer making a living off the land being pushed out be greedy developrs wanting to build mcmansions...I think not.

[Bluey]

Updated news article:

http://www.9news.com/rss/article.aspx?storyid=122079

Don't just read the article, but also the commentaries.
Some good points made there.

No matter how this will turn out, how justice may be done, somehow I think there is more to this than someone acting so crazyly.
Too many have agendas they seem to be following in this story.

The horses are the prop for this all, I think.:(

[JSwan]

Oh for God's sake - are y'all that obtuse that you can't figure out it was a stupid - really stupid - publicity stunt?


Besides - aren't all the anti-slaughter people insisting that people put horses down rather than send them to slaughter?

Or maybe you'd rather he just ship them off. After all - doesn't look like any of you are offering to help care for them while he's in jail.

A crooked politician.... I never heard of such a thing! :lol: Guy sounds like a real winner - but NOT an animal abuser.

So - even though this crook has NOT neglected or abused one single animal in his care, and appears to have no intention of doing so... he's still losing all his horses.

Sorry folks - the guy is a dirtbag that much is apparent. But he's not an animal abuser. And though he's abused no animals - he's losing all of them.

Meanwhile, Michael Vick makes MILLIONS... and his dogs were tortured until they died.

I strongly suggest all the holier than thou posters go read their zoning ordinances very very carefully. Because you may be next. And I most sincerely doubt you'll contain your anger and frustration when you find out you need tens of thousands of dollars to retain counsel. These ordinances are used to harass people all the time, especially those who have animals. I'd watch out if I were you...

[tkhawk]

Unless you have been cornered into an extremely helpless situation, where you are right and yet the stupid ones have the upper hand -wether that be due to uniform or just bute strength or social customs or whatever, you won't understand that. The guy is cornered , going to jail for 90 days. It doesn't say he has anyone else to care for the horses. So that itself may be an issue. A guy who is going to go through with this is not going to post flyers.

Maybe he intends to euthanize them anyways, because he won't have anyone to look after them for 90 days and so is mad as hell and is just trying to show the stupidity of it all. That he has to go to jail for a few damn structures in his property and loose his horses. It wouldn't be a first. There are so many people who abuse animals out there-nobody every puts out a flier detailing what they are going to do step by step and asks for people to help him do it.

I do agree , the way he comes across makes him seem to be the stupid one. If he did something in the early 90s , fine, but he seems to have been clean the whole time after. But I think the officials involved are the stupid ones-maybe they are right "technically" but is this really needed? I don't know the whole story, but I boarded for four years in barn that was close to urban. The stream flew through a quarry and came through to us. But you wouldn't believe the amount of precautions we have to take-every year it was something. The land was worth millions and there were several developers waiting , plan in hand. But the owner had been there 30 yrs and he wasn't about to be run out of town. There is a difference between enforcing and nitpicking and making someone's life miserable to make sure you can drive someone out so you can increase your tax base and revenue. Which I think is just very bad.

[rosijet]

Be sure to watch the video in that link also. There is someone going out to help him, and it shows video of his property.

[JSwan]

So can I take it you're a neighbor? You sure seem really interested. :rolleyes:


ETA - Ok - now I get it. You should really disclose your AGENDA....

Here is your post on a thread about URBAN DEVELOPMENT CONCEPTS.

I'm a realtor in the Denver area. I think there are some people who would like this concept on paper. I had a client that bought a house in Ken Caryl mainly because you could see the Ken Caryl Equestrian Center from the deck. She loved the idea of a 5 minute walk down the bike path to ride her horse every day.[


I feel sorrier for this guy every time I check this thread. He may be a jerk, and he may be a crook. But it's also pretty obvious that people like you are the ones that have been after this guy for 2 years.

Backing him into a corner so that his only option is to euthanize his horses or send them to auction.

He'll come home to NOTHING. But hey - as long as folks have their bike paths and lattes....

[rosijet]

:confused: Just posting information for interested people JSwan. Not a neighbor at all. Why so nasty? I haven't offered much in the way of my personal feelings on this.

[jetsmom]

A rescue has offered to take all of the horses. He isn't being backed into a corner having to choose between sending to auction or euthanizing his horses. There is another option.

The guy is a thug and a criminal (per his previous criminal history). He isn't threatening to "euthanize" his horses, but to torture them to death in public.

[rosijet]

:lol: Seriously?!? People like me? Okee-dokee!

ETA I never did discuss my personal opinion on urban development. Merely mentioned the opinion of a past client. How do you know my house isn't some shack with a bunch of mobile homes parked out back? ;) Or that I oppose urban sprawl? Or government abuse of power? Clearly, I'm not one to spout my opinion that often, so please don't make unsubstantiated assumptions.

My agenda, if you really want to know, was to provide a link to an interesting case and provide updates as this case develops.

[Schune]

Oh for God's sake - are y'all that obtuse that you can't figure out it was a stupid - really stupid - publicity stunt?


Besides - aren't all the anti-slaughter people insisting that people put horses down rather than send them to slaughter?

Or maybe you'd rather he just ship them off. After all - doesn't look like any of you are offering to help care for them while he's in jail.

A crooked politician.... I never heard of such a thing! :lol: Guy sounds like a real winner - but NOT an animal abuser.

So - even though this crook has NOT neglected or abused one single animal in his care, and appears to have no intention of doing so... he's still losing all his horses.

Sorry folks - the guy is a dirtbag that much is apparent. But he's not an animal abuser. And though he's abused no animals - he's losing all of them.

Meanwhile, Michael Vick makes MILLIONS... and his dogs were tortured until they died.

I strongly suggest all the holier than thou posters go read their zoning ordinances very very carefully. Because you may be next. And I most sincerely doubt you'll contain your anger and frustration when you find out you need tens of thousands of dollars to retain counsel. These ordinances are used to harass people all the time, especially those who have animals. I'd watch out if I were you...

Well, call me a bleeding heart, but I wonder what kind of psyche this guy has.

You won't ever catch me threatening to roast my cat alive over an open burner just so I can get enough attention to make a point; I don't give a flying rat's butt if this guy wasn't intending to carry out his thread. Just to even say something like that tells me that he's throwing a temper tantrum and could not give a crap about the animals in his care.

[JSwan]

Why should he be forced into giving up his horses? He's not guilty of abusing or neglecting them. In fact, quite the opposite. The animals are well cared for. The place is well kept. There is plenty of food and water - even the "rescue" says he works hard to care for the animals.

His prior criminal convictions weren't animal related - and though it's obvious the guy is a jerk - he's not an animal abuser.

So basically what seems to have happened is that this guy did his time and has lived out there for years. Then the citiots move in and make his life hell for 2 years.

The result is that he is not guilty of ANY animal crime. He's done nothing wrong except have a MINOR zoning violation and shoot off his mouth.

And he's losing - permanently - all of his horses.

Do any of you really think that is in any way reasonable? A minor zoning violation and you lose your horses?

What happens when your new neighbor decides to do the same to you? How will you react?

Do any of you know how much money it costs in legal bills to fight such things? Try tens of thousands of dollars.

Had he not provided adequate shelter y'all would be crucifying him. Even suggesting that he could have rigged something up.

Well - he did. And for that he's losing his horses.

And for the OP - I looked through your old posts so please spare me the innocent act.

[rosijet]

Once again, huh? :confused:

Not really wanting to have an argument with you, JSwan. Perhaps we agree on some of these issues! :) As mentioned, I'm just not one to plaster my personal thoughts all over the Internet. Not judging those that do. It makes life interesting! :D

[Threebars]

Did you see the video? Those horses sure do look in desperate need of rescuing don't they? :dead: I mean, fat and sassy, and sleek and shiny - incredibly neglected too - I mean, they had room to run (but that damn grass looked pretty itchy to me!) Those trailers - what a mess! I mean, the colours clash horribly with the local landscape.

But wait! he ran as a Republican in 1977!!! You can't get more criminal than that! (Sarcasm aside - looks like he had a bit of serious trouble back then too, but that should have no bearing on the current situation.)

No, for all my own personal liberal leaning, bleeding heart self, I honestly think this guy is being baited and crapped on, and if the horses are 'seized', someone stands to make a pretty penny from them even in this depressed environment.

[myvanya]

Well, call me a bleeding heart, but I wonder what kind of psyche this guy has.

You won't ever catch me threatening to roast my cat alive over an open burner just so I can get enough attention to make a point; I don't give a flying rat's butt if this guy wasn't intending to carry out his thread. Just to even say something like that tells me that he's throwing a temper tantrum and could not give a crap about the animals in his care.

I'm right with you on this. Though I agree with those that say it is ridiculous this guy could stand to lose his horses over a zoning violation and now assault charges- there seems to be a lot to the story. But there is something wrong with a guy who says he is considering euthanizing- by shooting, knifing or beating- all of his horses because he is upset over being bullied by the government; I know that would not be my first reaction. I may not agree with the guy; I may think he is a filthy human being in many ways, but those things of themselves are insufficient for me to be concerned; what causes concern to me is how he responded to the situation. I don't care if he feels helpless- threatening the horses wasn't the right reaction. That is all there is to it. If he is responsible enought to own a horse, he should be responsible enough to prevent his problems from interfering with their good care, even to the extent of threatening to hurt them. The graphic detail used to describe what he would do was disgusting; there was no reason he needed to do that. He has help taking care of them in the midst of all this and he has a horse rescue that has offerred to take them if it comes to that. I think those things sugggest his reaction was outside of what most people consider to be healthy. I think though that the whole thing may be a reminder that owning animals is a priviledge; not a right- when you become a criminal you have a tendency to have a reduction in the respect for your rights, whether the crime is in the past or not. (Not passing judgement on that, it just seems to be how things are.)

[BabyGreen]

Reading this link might shed a different light on Mr. Trenton. Kind of veers off into Tim McVeigh territory, huh?

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=8245

I would like to know why he's going to jail this time and what he did to get there in the first (second, third?) place. I will keep googling.

[BabyGreen]

By Associated Press
9:56 AM MDT, August 27, 2009

GREELEY, Colo. (AP) — A Weld County man who threatened to kill 24 horses has been jailed because his bond was withdrawn in an unrelated case.

Sixty-four-year-old Trenton H. Parker threatened to shoot the horses to protest a 90-day jail sentence stemming from an alleged zoning violation.

On Wednesday, Greeley bail bond agent Alda Pauline withdrew Parker's $20,000 bond in an assault case. Pauline told the Greeley Tribune Parker's threat against the horses convinced her he might be a flight risk.
Parker is charged with injuring a co-worker in March in a dispute over Parker's dog.

In the other case, authorities say Parker was found in contempt of court for not removing mobile homes from around his home.

Authorities say the mobile homes violated zoning ordinances.

___

[tkhawk]

This was already in the news and per the news reports, the other person refused to press charges. Trying to make him into a monster is not going to make the zoning issues go away. He is a colorful character and about two decades ago was convicted of white collar crimes.That doesn't make him a monster. He did his time and is minding his own business. I wish the news organizations would spend more time digging up zoning issues and giving both sides of the story instead of playing football with this guy and enjoying tearing him down. just like they had a ball tearing down Britney Spears and any number of folks with issues.

[BabyGreen]

If the charge was dropped, why has his bail been withdrawn, by the bail bondsman, no less?

It doesn't appear he's going to jail for the zoning violation, but for the assault. Evidently, he's been in prison before, and not just for fraud.

There are several references on the web to a "Trenton Parker" claiming to be an ex-Marine colonel, an ex-CIA operative, an employee of the CIA, and naval commander, etc., all in connection with various extreme conspiracy theorists, anti-Bush rants, Nazi gold, various assassinations, etc.

I'm starting to get the idea this fellow is a "colorful character" the same way the unibomber was colorful.

[Guilherme]

You can go to jail in civil case.

If you lose a civil case (as he apparantly did his zoning case) then the judge will issue an order directing him to comply with the zoning rules. If he refuses then he's in contempt of court and subject to being jailed until he comes into compliance. Depending on the state he may or may not have a right to a hearing in front of another judge to see if he really is in contempt.

And, depending on the state, the time of incarcertation may run from a fixed time to an unlimited time (ending when he complies with the oders(s) of the court).

So he's not going to jail for the trailers, he's going because he refused to comply with an order of the court.

The bond's man is protecting their assets by pulling the bond. And likely being PC in the process.

Just because a victim does not wish to pursue a case does not mean it's necessarily dropped. Again, depending upon the state, the prosecution may still go forward and treat the victim as a "hostile witness."

Ain't the judicial system grand?!?!?!?!?!

G.

[JLMet]

http://www.co.weld.co.us/departments/planning/code/code_mobilehome.html

Sounds like the zoning law was in effect back in August 1981. I'm willing to bet that those mobile homes were not on the property before then (I could be wrong). I have no compassion for someone who doesn't check the laws in their area before doing things. The laws are there for a reason and he could have applied for a permit to keep them there legally. It's not that hard to do. They issued the order for the removal back in December of 2007. He's had MORE than enough time to move them and replace them and didn't. I don't care what the reasons were for someone to complain about the mobile homes on his property but he was not backed into a corner. He was given ample time to correct his situation and didn't. It's clear he's in the wrong and is doing what he does best... acting like a child for attention. This isn't someone who's been pushed to his breaking point. He never had a breaking point, this is, looking at his past (and present), how he acts when he's wrong and doesn't want to admit it. I'm not saying the laws and codes are perfect but they are there and it is a persons responsibility to look into them before doing things. You don't like it then move to an area that doesn't have those laws. There's no excuse for his actions and I hope they give him more time just for threatening to do what he says.

If he wants to euth them, that's his right, but to say you're going to torture them first is a totally different thing and he should be held accountable for that too. There are people offering their help to him, he just wants to look like the battered old man. He's fully capable of doing the right thing, he just doesn't want to.

[tkhawk]

You are comparing this guy to the unibomber?

White collar crime and one brawl and random stuff from the internet-that may or may not be true and now he is murderer who goes around killing people??

His threats against his horses was stupid-but people who go around abusing their animals don't go posting flyers about it. But some of the comments I see in the news article scare me. One person wanted to tie him up and feed him to the mountain lions and wolves. Another, well you know if you look at history, it is amazing how much violence has been reaped on fellow human beings when we think we are righteous.

[FatPalomino]

So wait, why is he being "forced" to give up his horses?

Having shelter for horses is not a requirement in Colo or Weld County, last I checked.

I read that he said he was forced to get rid of his horses because he was going to jail. So, it's his own decision.

[JSwan]

Unless he has been convicted of blowing people up - he's innocent.

Hardly a sympathetic character, I agree. But there are many people with whom I disagree on various issues.

And I'd be horrified that their animals were taken away over a minor zoning violation.

He's going to jail for contempt - not assault. Contempt probably means he talked back to a judge.

Meh.

I'll save my anger over cases of animal abuse. It's not a crime to dislike government or believe in conspiracy theories. A person can believe the moon landing was staged and still take good care of his animals.

I never thought I'd live to see the day I felt sorry for a crooked wanna be right wing politician. :no:

[JSwan]

So wait, why is he being "forced" to give up his horses?

Having shelter for horses is not a requirement in Colo or Weld County, last I checked.

I read that he said he was forced to get rid of his horses because he was going to jail. So, it's his own decision.

Are you offering to go there and take care of them for him? If not - exactly what choice does he have? Leave them there to starve?

[JSwan]

In that case you won't mind if I drive by your home, take a few pictures, and then run over to the county. Don't be so sure you're not breaking a reg or ordinance. If you have a fence - you better hope it's not 1/2" on someone else's land - or else!

Maybe they'll make an example of you too. Maybe I'll get a few of your neighbors to join with me and we can all complain to the county together. I'll insist my rep on the Board hold hearings. Then maybe I'll contact a newspaper and tell the reporter about a DWI you had, or a reckless driving charge or something.

Yes - let's do that and see how perfect you are.

http://www.co.weld.co.us/departments/planning/code/code_mobilehome.html

Sounds like the zoning law was in effect back in August 1981. I'm willing to bet that those mobile homes were not on the property before then (I could be wrong). I have no compassion for someone who doesn't check the laws in their area before doing things. The laws are there for a reason and he could have applied for a permit to keep them there legally. It's not that hard to do. They issued the order for the removal back in December of 2007. He's had MORE than enough time to move them and replace them and didn't. I don't care what the reasons were for someone to complain about the mobile homes on his property but he was not backed into a corner. He was given ample time to correct his situation and didn't. It's clear he's in the wrong and is doing what he does best... acting like a child for attention. This isn't someone who's been pushed to his breaking point. He never had a breaking point, this is, looking at his past (and present), how he acts when he's wrong and doesn't want to admit it. I'm not saying the laws and codes are perfect but they are there and it is a persons responsibility to look into them before doing things. You don't like it then move to an area that doesn't have those laws. There's no excuse for his actions and I hope they give him more time just for threatening to do what he says.

If he wants to euth them, that's his right, but to say you're going to torture them first is a totally different thing and he should be held accountable for that too. There are people offering their help to him, he just wants to look like the battered old man. He's fully capable of doing the right thing, he just doesn't want to.

[BabyGreen]

http://www.greeleytribune.com/article/20090827/NEWS/908269942/1002/NONE&parentprofile=1001

Hopefully, that gives those horses a 90-day reprieve.

(This doofus appears to have big anger issues, that he has acted on that anger in the past. Anybody who could threaten to do that to horses could do that to a person.)

[JSwan]

Really?

Because from what I read she didn't revoke the bond because she considered him a flight risk.

It was politically motivated. Hopefully if you ever get into trouble your bondsman doesn't take into account your politics. If he or she disagrees - there goes your bond.

Oh well. Guess y'all can line up to adopt all those nice horses. Should be quite a deal. And look -he's in jail and can't control who his horses are given to. Hopefully the animals don't end up like the 3 Strikes horses....

[BabyGreen]

Your argument reminds me of a guy who kills his parents and then pleads for mercy because he's an orphan.

[JSwan]

Well, he said they're not his horses, anyway.


And if they're not - the rightful owners are being deprived of the ability to claim them. The horses will be taken and scattered.

So - this jerk gets cornered and railroaded, perfectly well cared for horses are taken away - and ownership of those horses has not been established.

Which won't stop a rescue from doling them out.

Yes - that all sounds just peachy. Reminds me of all the owners that had to file lawsuits to recover their pets after Katrina.

[Ambrey]

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Lochbuie,+CO&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&split=0&gl=us&ei=t12VSsDrKJG0NtGmrPoH&ll=40.039392,-104.733548&spn=0.001398,0.002411&t=h&z=19


According to the regulation a previous posted linked, mobile homes are not allowed to be used for temporary storage since 2001 (if I am reading that correctly.)

That area doesn't look like there are a bunch of McMansions to me. But he has a bunch of mobile homes.

LOL, everyone jumps on the McMansion bandwagon, and this guy is just a mobile home park in the middle of nowhere waiting to fall apart in the next heavy wind.

Mobile homes and trailer rules are not just due to appearance laws- there are waste disposal issues, safety issues, and so on... trailers and mobile homes have been heavily restricted in many rural areas since before I was born (which was a long time ago, way before anyone used the word "McMansion").

[JSwan]

Your argument reminds me of a guy who kills his parents and then pleads for mercy because he's an orphan.



Not an argument at all.

Just noting that most of you would make a fine lynch mob.

[tkhawk]

I boarded four years in a barn that was a very pristine rural area and then became a prime urban area. It was right off the freeway and worth millions. But the barn owner had been there over three decades. IN CA, you pay taxes on the purchase price, not on what it is worth. So he was probably paying taxes on the price 30 yrs ago. now it is worth millions by itself and if the developers had their way or if they got a big box store in-just the sales tax itself can be a great revenue generator.

Not saying that was the prime motivating factor, but I was just dumbfounded at the "violations". We had a creek that flew in passing through a quarry. if there was any worry, it would be our horses would get sick if they drank it. But the poor BO had to deal with all kind of grief for protecting that creek. not to mention widening his driveway-which by the way two trailers could pass through just fine(except for a 10 ft section-in which a horse trialer and a small car could still pass by each other), manure regulations. The guy used to keep it on concrete and then used to take them to a nearby nursery and give it to them. Nope the county wanted a container-exact county specifications -and then he couldn't just take it to the nursery-they came up with approved procedures-it was jsut a nightmare. From recyclying the manure, he went to just dumping it and paying somebody for it. Everytime he fixed something , they came up with something new. several boarding places aroudn that place closed -one or two now have big box retailers in them. Just a shame.

Now my BO was older and owned the property free and clear so no mortgages so could afford to do all these things. But what if you are paying a mortgage and trying to run a business and you have these nitwit county investigators who by the way all seemed to be-at least in this county- city bred folks with no clue on how to run a farm or what is required going exactly by the book and spouting off gibberish they read in a text book? At some point and after several cycles of this, you are bound to snap at the stupidity of it all...

[JanM]

First of all-his previous conviction for taking $9 million illegally is not victimless-that money had to come from somebody else's pockets somehow. And bailbondsmen and bondswomen are in a business and if they don't want to risk their money on someone then they don't have to, and if there's a guarantor on the bond they can tell the bondsperson they withdraw their guarantee so the bondsperson cancels the bond too. I can tell you I wouldn't want to live next to this person, and I haven't heard of any neighbors or groups coming forward to support him, and that makes me even more suspicious of his actions.

[tkhawk]

Nobody is saying he is a saint. But he is not the anti-christ either.

[JLMet]

In that case you won't mind if I drive by your home, take a few pictures, and then run over to the county. Don't be so sure you're not breaking a reg or ordinance. If you have a fence - you better hope it's not 1/2" on someone else's land - or else!

Maybe they'll make an example of you too. Maybe I'll get a few of your neighbors to join with me and we can all complain to the county together. I'll insist my rep on the Board hold hearings. Then maybe I'll contact a newspaper and tell the reporter about a DWI you had, or a reckless driving charge or something.

Yes - let's do that and see how perfect you are.

Never said I was perfect, but everything we did on our property followed our township coding rules. We hired one hell of a builder to do the addition on our house as well to make sure that nothing would come back to bite us. Why? Because we know damn well there are rules here and they are quick to catch them. Never had any DWI's but you're welcome to snoop around all you like if you really want to waste your time (never had any violations).

Why are you so into defending this guy? He was not backed into a corner as you claim, his court order was back in 2007 and you're telling me he didn't have time or money to do it? I'm sorry but if you have the time and money to care for 24 horses from then until now, you had the time and money to replace the storage. Again, no pity for someone who just wants to throw a hissy fit because he was wrong and can't admit it.

[JSwan]

I'm not into defending the guy. I'm appalled by the stupidity and ignorance shown by so called "animal lovers" that are not quite as broad minded as they think they are.


But I'd not be so confident in your perfect obedience to your ordinances. Lots of things go on that you're not aware of. And one day, someone may decide to mess with you. Could be for any reason.

Or maybe a developer has lunch with some board members and tells them of his vision for your area. Dollar figures are mentioned. Or maybe your area becomes attractive to urban/suburban dwellers - who buy up land and think your horses are an attractive nuisance. Or your fence sags. Or your barn isn't painted as often as they like.

Maybe they start filing complaints with the ACO - to show a pattern of "neglect" calls being made. Of course -that is all anonymous - and though you're innocent there is still a record.

Once that person or group of people decide to mess with you.... you don't stand a chance.

Go to your zoning meetings and see what kind of cozy little deals are being made. Amendments to Comprehensive Plans. Placing certain industry near poor or minority owned areas.

Yup - it happens. A lot. And if it does - you'll be subjected to the same tender mercies. :yes:

[tkhawk]

Well bringing up his history for something that is not related and trying to paint him as a monster is not good. I have a friend who actually believes that Dick Cheney is a lizard. She thinks that the top powerful people in this world are lizrards and they date back to Atlantis and the Lemurians. She also has a few youthful infractions in her past and while is a dreamy person, is a real cool swell person to hang out with. We just don't dicuss Atlantis!! She loves her animals.
If something like this happens to her, I can only imagine the newspaper reports on her and the accompanying folks who have already convicted her based on all this stuff even though it may not be related to the current case.

[lcw579]

[edit]

JSwan, I agree with you on all points.

So the guy isn't a sympathetic character - it doesn't make him the devil incarnate either. He's an angry man and there are some small town politics going on and he has found himself on the wrong side of the deal. Could he have handled himself with more dignity? Sure. But then we wouldn't be having all this fun dissecting his psyche would we? :lol:

[BabyGreen]

How are you to judge someone, if not by their past behavior (which is mirrored by his current behavior)?

Those of you defending this loose cannon are presenting your arguments as if they were facts: somebody in government had a grudge against him, some developer wants his property, citiots are driving him away, just a poor slob at the mercy of the powerful. None of these arguments is supported by evidence, in fact quite the contrary. It appears that he's the one with victims (including the soon-to-be murdered horses).

(And it looks like he's been in trouble in more than one small town.)

How about this--he's an anti-social thug who can't live among others and can't stay out of trouble.

[JLMet]

Possibly, and if that happens, it happens. But I wouldn't be defying a court order...hell I wouldn't be letting it get to a point where a court order is needed. He wasn't being picked on, he wasn't being singled out and he brought this on himself. All he had to do was move the trailers and have a building to store hay in its place. I'm sure there were others that had to do the same thing if they had a trailer on their property. Why is it so hard for him to just say, ok I lost and have to fix it? I've been to plenty of meetings here and sometimes it was for those reasons. They've actually had to reschedule meetings because too many people showed up creating a violation of the fire safety codes. People in this area care greatly about what goes on, mainly because we like that there's ruling that no house built can have less than 2 acres of land and things set in place to keep the area as land/forest friendly as they can. We've had people with money come in and start waving it around. Some of them were able to get what they wanted and that was after several meetings and coming to an agreement with the rest of the residents and a whole lot of them have lost too because they weren't willing to compromise. I consider myself extremely lucky, the 3 officials for our township are awesome and they actually helped my husband and I when we were having trouble with getting one of our permits. We were in the right but the woman who was to issue the permit had a grudge with our builder and was looking for every excuse she could think of to keep us from getting it. Needless to say she was let go when her contract was up and they offered the position to our builder since he knew more about the codes than she did! Nobody is perfect in this area and sure there might be something off but you can bet if it was and we were told about it, we would fix it. Might not be happy about it but who am I to say otherwise? If it's in the codes then you have to follow them, be it now or later when you're caught.

I'm very glad you're not defending him, and I agree some people haven't gotten all of the facts straight (maybe I missed something too) but the concern is that he sits there and acts like killing them is his only option. It's not, people and rescues have offered to step in and help, and if this isn't his property or those aren't his horses then what's his problem? Call the owners and tell them to come get their horses! Problem solved, no more horses on his property to need hay to store to care for.

“I have absolutely no authority, I don't own the property, I don't own the horses, but I've been told to get rid of them by the court,” Parker said.

This comment by him is what really gets me. If it's not his property he would not be the one held liable for the trailers. He's an idiot and looks like he's trying to say anything to worm his way out of yet another jail stay. He wasn't told to get rid of the horses either yet he's trying to twist words to make it look like he's innocent. If they aren't his horses then call the owners to come and get them, if it's not your property you wouldn't be the one going to jail. Personally I hope he goes there just because of his remarks (not just the threatening animal abuse one either) he's in dire need of some education, maybe he'll pick up and read some local zoning books.

[lcw579]

You know, I think the thread has gotten away from the man himself. He's obviously a blowhard and probably not a very nice person. Although, he does have his supporters in the comment sections of the the articles. I guess those of us who have watched the land we enjoyed as children fall to Mcmansions tend to root for these characters. When the Hunt you rode with as a child has moved so far from it's original clubhouse (surrounded by houses) that you're not even sure what county it's in anymore, when all the land you used to trail ride in is now planned developments, when all the barns you and your friends kept ponies in are closed or landlocked - well you get jaded and you root for "that guy".

I remember when the first developments started going in. People wanted to enjoy the country. They used bridle paths and the hunt going through as marketing devices. Well, surprise when the horses dropped manure or left hoofprints they weren't so desireable anymore and fences went up. It stinks to watch your childhood disappear under a bulldozer.

Who cares what people do on their own property? As long as the animals are fed and well cared for than does it matter if your view isn't lovely? No plant some trees. As for the zoning issues? We all know that they can be very selectively applied, it all depends on who you know and how well you are liked in the community.

[JSwan]

And I fail to see how his past conviction for a non animal related crime makes him unworthy of owning an animal.

In fact, it appears he is a good animal owner. He exceeds what the law requires. The law does not require shelter for the animals - and he provides shelter anyway.

The law requires that he care for the animals, and he does so. There is not even a hint that the animals have been neglected or abused.

People say a lot of things when they're angry. Has it occurred to any of you that this MINOR zoning violation could have been resolved years ago had the county merely granted a variance?

Do any of you realize that variances or exceptions are granted all the time, all over the US? Fence too high? No biggie. Building a little too close to a property line? Oops - minor mistake. No biggie.

Of course - it is much more attractive to crucify, vilify and attempt to destroy those with whom we don't agree.

At any time during the dispute, he could have loaded up those horses and taken them to auction. They'd be on a plate in France or Japan. None of you would have been the wiser. He could have shot them. Bullets are cheap and it's doubtful anyone would have noticed - though there are in fact many new neighbors on either side of him.

In two years - he has not done anything that resulted in harm to those animals. They are fed. Watered. Sheltered. Evidently no complaints were filed with Animal Control - though the county was quite aware of an ongoing zoning dispute.

So - animals are well cared for. He exceeds the standard required in that jurisdiction, as he provides them shelter. At any time, the county could have granted a variance or exception and he would have gone on with his angry little life - muttering about conspiracies and shoveling horse manure.

Not a sympathetic character. Maybe not the type of person you or I would care to have lunch with. But surely - even the most hysterical among you will recognize that the horses could have been sent to Mexico at any time. And still could.

And yet - he does not do so. He continues to care for the animals - even working with a rescue. Knowing that he will never see the horses again - even though he has done nothing but take good care of them.





How are you to judge someone, if not by their past behavior (which is mirrored by his current behavior)?

Those of you defending this loose cannon are presenting your arguments as if they were facts: somebody in government had a grudge against him, some developer wants his property, citiots are driving him away, just a poor slob at the mercy of the powerful. None of these arguments is supported by evidence, in fact quite the contrary. It appears that he's the one with victims (including the soon-to-be murdered horses).

(And it looks like he's been in trouble in more than one small town.)

How about this--he's an anti-social thug who can't live among others and can't stay out of trouble.

[BabyGreen]

Nobody took his horses away. He went to jail. He took himself away.

Do we horse owners have a get out of jail free card because "who's gonna feed the horses"?

If he was a neighborly sort, he probably wouldn't have to worry about who would feed them. Misanthropes seldom can call on help. Too bad. Do the crime, do the time.

BTW, dude swindled $9 million in a gold-prospecting-tax-evasion investment scheme (non-existant gold mines), dumped it in off-shore banks and got caught. Investors only got $6M back. He served his time in Federal prisons in Arizona back in the 1980's.

[JSwan]

It's pretty obvious that you have zero interest in the welfare of the horses or any alternative explanation.

For you - it's all about vengeance and screw the facts, law or welfare of the animals in question.

Maybe he should just take the horses to slaughter - then you could put on another layer of judgy pants, light a candle, and pray to Barbaro while you're at it. :rolleyes:


And I hardly call a zoning violation a "crime". It's about as much a crime as farting in an elevator. Get over yourself.

[FatPalomino]

Are you offering to go there and take care of them for him? If not - exactly what choice does he have? Leave them there to starve?

A LOT of folks I know fill up a huge stock tank (or have auto waterers), set up a few round bales if there is no pasture, and have someone come by and check on the horses once a week, once every other week....

No money? Sell some to feed some.

That's not insane. Nor is paying someone to feed your animals while your gone :)

Does every person whose thrown in jail kill their dog/cat/horse just before they leave?

AND post flyers asking for help in the hangings?

[LLDM]

judgy pants

Okay, that word should be a crime. :lol: Swan - have a glass and relax a little, please?

You know what? I get your points. I think most people here do. But Baby Green is right. He is going to jail. No one is *taking* his horses away. If they belong to other owners, he can call them up and tell them to come and get them. No one is going to stop that. If not, and he can make other arrangements for them, they will be fine until he returns.

What I don't get is all this sympathy and support for a guy who is threatening to stab his pregnant mares in their bellies, bash their brains out and shot his best stallion first as a protest. Protest, yes. Grandstanding crap, no. Violence, *hell no*.

You're reacting just the way he wants you to. Why would you support such behavior from anyone? He's had two years to call any one of hundreds of groups who would have supported his cause, or sell off his herd, or file for a variance or whip the media into a frenzy.

I don't care who you are or what your cause is - You lose me when you threaten violence to get your way. You just lose any right to be self righteous after that. And that does more harm than good to any cause. Even a good cause.

SCFarm

[JSwan]

I'm perfectly relaxed, thanks.

And I'm not reacting the way "he" wants me to. The guy is an idiot and that was a stupid publicity stunt.

But his past crimes have no bearing on his zoning dispute with local government. And that is what y'all don't seem to get.

Some folks have posted that they have had rather unpleasant dealings with zoning, including employees who bore grudges against a builder or had ulterior motives. That happens quite often, and a person is lucky if they have the resources to combat it.

You're getting all screechy and hysterical over what is patently and obviously a boneheaded threat. Which IS exactly what he wanted you to do. See how much attention and publicity he got? See how many of you are upset?

I'm not upset at all. Guy probably moved out there and wants to be left alone. And he was - for many years.

Something changed - and I most sincerely doubt local politics aren't involved.

I'm not the one who has been manipulated. All y'all have been. ;) That jerk is probably laughing about the reaction.

[AnnaCrew]

The guy did the right thing - he threatened to kill animals. Kill in a nasty way. So he made it up to the news. Up to this thread.

Thus he got what he needed - publicity and attention to his problem.

Ok, he is not an angel, I agree with that but in his situation... Maybe I would too create similar threatens to get attention, to get my voice to be listened. If nothing else, so many people now got his message.

I know it is hard for him to realize that small tenant (or whatever he is) has no hope to win in this situation - somebody wants him out and they will get him out, for sure.

[BabyGreen]

He's not going to jail for zoning violations, he's going to jail for contempt of court.


Contempt of Court

A person found in contempt of court is called a "contemnor." To prove contempt, the prosecutor or complainant must prove the four elements of contempt:

existence of a lawful order
the contemnor's knowledge of the order
the contemnor's ability to comply
the contemnor's failure to comply

[meupatdoes]

If the government makes it impossible for him to keep his horses on his property, he's got every right to have somebody come in and shoot them.

The other threats appear to have escalated from that and may or may not be plausible. I suspect the one quoted in OP is not plausible.

OK, OBVIOUSLY I do not agree with the man's proposed response here, but greysandbays has a point.

I own three horses.

Technically, nothing is stopping me from humanely euthanizing them in the next 15 minutes if that is what I choose to do.

I can have the vet come out and euthanize them, or I can shoot them.

People kill pets all the time. Whether it is an old infirm dog getting an expedited end for his own sake, or healthy dogs in kill shelters that didn't find homes getting gassed, or a healthy puppy that the family didn't train and now finds "too destructive" and brings to the vet to be put down, or horses on a trailer to Mexico for their last ride, it is not illegal to humanely destroy an animal and some of the "socially acceptable" methods are imo not "humane" in the least.

A bullet is, however, quick and painless.

Where the sheriff's office is getting "felony animal cruelty" out of shooting a horse is a little beyond me.

Honestly there would probably be a lot less animal suffering in the world if people would just humanely put down animals they could no longer care for for whatever reason, whether it be zoning laws or divorce or whatever, instead of passing them along and closing their eyes to the eventual consequences.

[myvanya]

actually I think his bond for an unrelated assault charge was revoked...but either way...contempt...assault...its not the zoning violation itself that put him in jail.

Also, he could just as easily removed the structures causing a problem and bought some tarps to cover his hay. It is often done. I personally don't like it, but I don't buy the excuse that the government is forcing him to get rid of the animals that may or may not be his. I understand not wanting to be told what to do, but if he lives in a place with laws like that, he needs to abide by them. I, unfortunately, live somewhere with an HOA. I hate it and will avoid it in the future if at all possible. However, I still follow my HOA rules. My dislike for some of them and my thinking it is ridiculous that my trash cannot be put out the night before pickup does not mean I can ignore the rule. I moved in there aware that I would have to follow rules, and I follow them. It is not that hard. I understand that the zoning laws may not have been enforced before and they are now, possibly because of someone holding a grudge against him. However, I can hardly call it unfair that a law is being enforced, and I remember being told growing up that life isn't fair. We are all born equal and things change from there. So, long story short, he is responsible for his actions and shouldn't have threatened to harm his (or possibly other people's) animals no matter how upset he was even for publicity; there should be consequences for his threats in the hope that he may think twice before acting this way in the future. I don't think this is not being open minded, I think it is a perfectly rational opinion to hold, though I am biased :winkgrin: (and that is all it is....my opinion.)

[jetsmom]

Are you offering to go there and take care of them for him? If not - exactly what choice does he have? Leave them there to starve?
A rescue has offered to care for the horses.

If he removed the trailers he wouldn't be going to jail. If he didn't agree with the zoning laws, he shouldn't have moved there. Apparently he doesn't even own some of the horses.

He is not being forced to give up the horses. But if you or I did something to get thrown in jail, then we need to make arrangements for our animals. He made the decision NOT to remove the trailers, knowing what the consequences are. Then he threatens to torture animals to death.

THIS is what you are defending???????

[jetsmom]

It's pretty obvious that you have zero interest in the welfare of the horses or any alternative explanation.

For you - it's all about vengeance and screw the facts, law or welfare of the animals in question.

Maybe he should just take the horses to slaughter - then you could put on another layer of judgy pants, light a candle, and pray to Barbaro while you're at it. :rolleyes:


And I hardly call a zoning violation a "crime". It's about as much a crime as farting in an elevator. Get over yourself.

Wow. You normally have some basis for rational argument in your posts, but you've gone over the top to come up with imagined conspiracies against a person threatening to stab, and torture these horses. All with no basis of fact. Even lashing out at those of us that think he is in the wrong, by suggesting "well at least he didn't send them to slaughter" Like that makes his threats to torture them, fine.
PMS'ing, perhaps or menopausal hot flashes and crankiness?

[JSwan]

Nope - I"m getting a good laugh out of the fact that a crochety old jerk can make a stupid empty threat and get some many people in an uproar. You've been had.

Not one animal has been harmed or is in danger of being harmed - and look. He's on the news, there is talk all over the internet, gov't officials have had to take time out of their day, respond to the media, probably fielding lots of phone calls, explaining themselves, covering their asses, and everyone is all in a tither.

If he wanted to cause a lot of headaches, I'd say he succeeded. And while I have no doubt he's a jerk, I also don't doubt he's been dealing with a heck of a lot of petty gov't BS for the past few years.

For the cost of paper and some stamps, he created a ruckus and will no doubt chuckle for the next 90 days.

Pretty effective way of getting attention - even if it does make him look like an ass. Though I doubt he cares about how people perceive him. :winkgrin:

What would really be ironic is if he wanted to get back at the locals by selling out to a convicted pedophile. Then folks would really have something to complain about.

[LLDM]

The guy did the right thing - he threatened to kill animals. Kill in a nasty way. So he made it up to the news. Up to this thread.

Thus he got what he needed - publicity and attention to his problem.

No, he didn't do the "right thing". By being an a$$, no group with any real potential influence is going to put it on the line to keep him out of jail. The best he will get is people stepping up to care for his horses despite his ill thought out, graphic threats.

Had he played it better, there would have been a crowd of people at court defending him. Now he's just an internet novelty. We may talk about him, but we won't do anything for him. He *might* get his horses taken care of for free. Good for them at least.

SCFarm

[tkhawk]

Nobody in this thread has supported this guy as a person or his threats. The zoning issues are a major problem. When you have an overzealous zoning officer or developers having an eye on your property, it is extremely easy to turn your life upside down.

For example in the city of Carmel, CA it is illegal to eat icecream on the sidewalk. In another city it is illegal to ride a bicycle in a pool or in Blythe, it is illegal to wear cowboy boots, unless you already own two cows or in Chico, CA you need a permit to throw hay in a cesspool. These are all laws on the books. There are thousands and thousands of laws for which an officer can cite you. There are so many unenforced laws on the books, that if someone wants to get you and starts looking at them, it is very easy to get you.

Now if city/county officials are paragons of virtue -fine. But they start to selectively enforce laws -maybe because the new officer goes exactly by the book or the new neighbour complained or the new developer wants your property, all of a sudden you find out how little recourse you have.

From the looks of it, this guy looks like he lives in a somewhat remote area and they want him to take down the mobile units. I am not sure how long he has had them or what the whole deal is.He is now going to jail for that. In his desperation he is doing something to get attention. Animal abusers and cat ladys and such don't go around doing that. If he wanted to, he could kill the horses and bury them legally. But he is taking care of it. It is easy to pile on someone who is acting up and has a few flaws. The hell I saw my BO go through -I wouldn't wish on anyone. Laws just come up arbitarily and in a fastly urbanizing area, the majority do not even have an idea and sign on and now all of a sudden what was ok is taboo and you have to comply or go to jail???

[jetsmom]

Thawk- So do you think it is OK to ignore zoning laws, especially ones that have been in effect for 28 years, and not silly ones like the laws you used as examples? And is it ok to threaten to torture animals if you don't get your way? It's not like mobile homes are unnoticeable. If someone put a mobile home in view on my neighbors property that had zoning regs against it, I'd be pissed. I don't want their eyesore causing a drop in my property value. In fact, I am under contract on a new home in a HOA to avoid having trashy neighbor's houses causing my property value to drop. When I was househunting I wouldn't buy in an unzoned area precisely to avoid that problem. I don't want to have a nice house and have neighbors move in and have junked cars up on blocks in their front yard, and a mobile home on the lot next door. If that makes me a snob, so be it. (For the record-I am also talking about residential areas on half acre lots, not 100 acres where a mobile home wouldn't be visible to a neighbor)

[MistyBlue]

Agree with disagreeing about the way he got the attention.
Dumb ass did it bass ackwards.
He got the attention, but mostly negative.
He should have gone straight to his local Farm Assoc and Equine Assoc and gotten their support. Instead he's just going to end up alienating them, probably his most powerful allies.
The threats for stabbing and mutilating were just too overly dramatic. Heck, over-dramatic enough he could be a Coth member. :D :lol: :winkgrin:
But as for zoning....it can be either a huge benefit or an ENORMOUS pita. It's rarely in between.
For those who live in suburban neighborhoods, it's mostly a benefit. Helps your property values remain static in bad times and increase in good times.
For those in rural areas...especially when suburbia comes moving in...it's a freaking nightmare. And no, it's not the "rare" case that inane older laws are suddenly enforced in order to force farming out. It's more the norm than rare.
And becoming more and more common...adding new laws and retro-acting them. Forcing out those farming within the zoning laws to suddenly be on the wrong side of the laws.
I see it often enough here. Which is why you'll often see some folks making regular threads with a head's up about a new problem with zoning in an area and begging for help, letters, warm bodies showing up at town hall meetings, etc. And those threads are mostly ignored. Because so manby horse folks like to remain insular and let the local Horse Assoc take care of their rights for them...as long as they never have to give up riding time or computer time. :rolleyes: And we hear, "Oh, that'll bever happen here. That thread is about a different state!" Yeah...okay. Where do you think that state got the idea? From another state that had enough ignoring it that the new problem got passed...then other states have a precedent to follow and jump on the bandwagon.
"Oh, doesn't affect me, I board!" Yeah, guess what? Your boarding barn counts and can lose their zoning rights too.

So yes...this man is a complete and utter asshat. About how he went along doing this...and probably in other aspects of his life also.
But as for zoning...for those of us who constantly work on watching-dogging that....it's a nightmare. So hate the moron...but please keep an eye on zoning issues. If not in this case...at least keep an eye on it in your area (and surrounding states too) and please help out your local farm and horse associations who are busting their arses to keep ALL of us able to have horses. And hay. And feed stores. And park our trailers. And use the trails for riding. And have showgrounds. And fairgrounds. And boarding barns staying ag business and not commercial. And....well, just about every aspect of *you all* enjoying your horses come from the little peons fighting the boring ol' zoning wars. :yes:

For the New England residents...next time Stegall posts a thread...pay attention. :cool:

[Ambrey]

He threatened to viciously massacre his horses because he didn't like a zoning rule. He IS the anti-christ, even if he decided to nicely shoot them later.

[edit]

[FatPalomino]

[edit]

FWIW, the parts of Weld County I've seen east of the interstate don't have McMansions on them. They have trailers and prarie dog holes (lots of both). I would imagine this guy had do to something mighty over the top to be thrown in jail for a zoning violation. FWIW, I also am not familiar with the exact area this man lives near, but I do think the name is funny.

[lilblackhorse]

some random thoughts on this tied to where I live (lots of growth, Californians who have moved up, etc).

We have a lawsuit in our city right now from some people who bought a house a few years ago out near the airport (a small local one, but it has little planes and choppers flying out of it daily)....they are suing because of the noise and low flying planes. The airport has been there for at least 30 years--WAY before they got there.

Another lawsuit we had in our city was in a very upscale neighborhood which has CCR's and active HOA---very specific about what is allowed and not allowed. This woman made national news when she pissed off her neighbors by hanging her laundry outside.

I happened to be in Costco today flop-earing when I realized the woman ahead of me was this woman. It was all I could do to NOT say "why the hell did you buy there in the first place then?" From the gist on the conversation I overheard, she gave up and sold her house (sure the neighbors helped her move her crap), and has now moved into the country.

There are zoning rules and such for a reason--most likely this guy didn't care, and it caught up with him. obviously being a dick and telling everyone he's going to murder his horses hasn't gotten him the publicity he was seeking. I'm all for reuse, recycle, etc. Hell, our horse shelters are Costco carports! BUT, you have to have permits for structures, and this f-you attitude of his is going to win no friends.

I can see both sides--and douchebags who buy in the "country" then bitch about the country need to go back to whence they came. Years ago there was a llama farmer who also filed a lawsuit against the same airport and our city--she was also a newcomer, and claimed the planes caused distress with her llamas. A family friend in his experimental plane crashed and died about the same time. We all kind of discussed how had he known he was going down, he could have taken out the llama lady's barn. It would have been karmic.

[JSwan]

I don't want to have a nice house and have neighbors move in and have junked cars up on blocks in their front yard, and a mobile home on the lot next door. If that makes me a snob, so be it. (For the record-I am also talking about residential areas on half acre lots, not 100 acres where a mobile home wouldn't be visible to a neighbor)

Yeah, I bet you'd really be upset if hispanics, blacks or gays lived near you too. God forbid some Muslims moved next door to you - they might be terrorists!:rolleyes:

If you want to live that way - it's none of my business. Takes all kinds to make a world. But it doesn't make you superior to other people, no matter how pretty your lawn is. What I gather from a great many of these posts is that many of you do indeed equate your personal tastes and preferences with moral superiority.

So anyone who does not live or act as you require is therefore a lesser person. Deserving of ridicule, derision, and justification for mistreatment and exclusion.

That is the definition of prejudice.

If this person lived in a "pretty" home in an exclusive suburb and he and his ancient horse were harassed by county employees and residents who discovered an obscure 30 year old ordinance that had never been enforced.... .all of you would be up in arms about the poor horsey. How unfair it was that this guy was targeted.

And you'd be right. Because that happens all the time - and very few people have the money and resources to fight back.

But this jerk - someone who lives on the fringes of society and isn't a sympathetic character.... nope. Get out the torches and pitchforks. You won't even consider the possibility that he might indeed have been targeted by overzealous zoning people or by new neighbors who intentionally went after him and have more political clout.

He's an "ugly" person you can't identify with so it's ok to crucify him.

Prejudice rears its ugly head again.

What I find appalling is that so many of you have expressed your so called "liberal" political leanings. Consider that you might not be as open minded, accepting, and empty of prejudice as you think you are. ;)

Good luck with your local Board and zoning in the future - because all over the US horse owners and farmers are being harassed and forced out by the same tactics used here. Find an old or obscure ordinance that no one knows about and use it to get what you want. If you can't find one, have lunch with a few Board members and work out a deal - and get one passed on the sly. Or get some little changes to plans here and there that work in development's favor.

If y'all don't think that doesn't happen then you haven't involved yourself in local politics. Small towns are the worst.

[Bluey]

---"Good luck with your local Board and zoning in the future - because all over the US horse owners and farmers are being harassed and forced out by the same tactics used here. Find an old or obscure ordinance that no one knows about and use it to get what you want. If you can't find one, have lunch with a few Board members and work out a deal - and get one passed on the sly. Or get some little changes to plans here and there that work in development's favor.

If y'all don't think that doesn't happen then you haven't involved yourself in local politics. Small towns are the worst."---

Remember how the slaughter plants in TX were closed?
Someone found an obscure, 1947 law, to keep some butchers from selling meat of horses that went down in the streets as beef and used that to say it meant it was illegal to sell any horse meat.
The HSUS bragged how their herd of lawyers were so smart to find that in an interview to the Dallas paper.
That along with local politics got them closed.

Fighting city hall, or your county, will generally get you nowhere, as if there is a fight, there will be several interest involved and you won't even know who all is behind it.

People like this sorry fellow of course are fodder for those upstanding citizens, that can do what they want, as the fellow is hard to defend, even if he was right.
All you have to do is read how the local press, that is beholden to those upstanding citizens, will never think of airing the skeletons in their closets, are taking on that fellow like mad dogs.

Too many wrongs around for anyone to be looking too good in this.:no:

[Schune]

Yeah, I bet you'd really be upset if hispanics, blacks or gays lived near you too. God forbid some Muslims moved next door to you - they might be terrorists!:rolleyes:

If you want to live that way - it's none of my business. Takes all kinds to make a world. But it doesn't make you superior to other people, no matter how pretty your lawn is. What I gather from a great many of these posts is that many of you do indeed equate your personal tastes and preferences with moral superiority.

So anyone who does not live or act as you require is therefore a lesser person. Deserving of ridicule, derision, and justification for mistreatment and exclusion.


That's a jump of about one hundred miles, don't you think?

So far, the only one who is screeching and hollering around here is you, Jswan. People are doing nothing more than stating why they find this particular homo sapien a degree of reprehensible. All they are met with by you, however, are remarks about how stupid we all are to have fallen under Big Brother's tricks and spells.

Do I think this guy was ever serious about actually maiming his horse's to death? No; he doesn't seem like that much of an idiot. But I'm not going to set up a chair and post in his defense camp, 'cause he's got some screws loose somewhere.

[JSwan]

Nope. Stick around this BB for a long time and you'll see a pattern. An awful lot of self-righteous hand wringing people who are very eager to get into other people's business and who get off on judging people who are different than they are.

I find the man reprehensible too. And since you can't seem to read, I'll remind you once again that I am not defending him or "in his camp".

Let me repeat that. I find the man reprehensible and am not defending him or "in his camp."

Get it? No? Read it again.

However, I am also quite aware of the politics behind zoning disputes, how developers work with communities, how "focus groups" work, and the fact that people or groups are in fact targeted. By government, or by special interest groups or individuals. That's not a conspiracy theory. That is a fact.

Pointing out that some of your are way over the top in comparing the jerk to the Unibomber, not joining in the teary-eyed mob, or being able to see a greater issue that affects all of us is also not "defending him".

Noticing prejudice and pointing it out is also not "defending him".

Only a very simple minded person would believe I agree with that man, or have defended his actions.

If you're so sure that everyone is your community is pure as the driven snow - go attend some zoning meetings. If you want to see a real show - attend a school board meeting.

Don't be sure so sure ordinances aren't being passed that make your horse ownership or preferred manner of living illegal. Not all things are grandfathered. Also don't be so sure that there isn't interest in getting rid of boarding stables, increasing taxes, closing trails, or excluding horses from parks.

Anyone who is involved in local planning knows that. Anyone on a Horse Council knows that.

Try thinking instead of reacting.

[greysandbays]

That's a jump of about one hundred miles, don't you think?

So far, the only one who is screeching and hollering around here is you, Jswan. People are doing nothing more than stating why they find this particular homo sapien a degree of reprehensible. All they are met with by you, however, are remarks about how stupid we all are to have fallen under Big Brother's tricks and spells.

Do I think this guy was ever serious about actually maiming his horse's to death? No; he doesn't seem like that much of an idiot. But I'm not going to set up a chair and post in his defense camp, 'cause he's got some screws loose somewhere.

And the only reason "they find this particular homo sapien [sic] reprehensible" is because he didn't behave as a proper horse worshiper should. He did something akin to the "Christ in Piss" thing and the folks who would have lined up ten miles long to support the artist who did that are first in line with "the torches and pitchforks" to persecute the guy.

Human rights (and property rights) have to transcend mere "loose screws". If he should have no defense "'cause he's got some screws loose somewhere", it is a small step toward you, me, and the old lady next door being dismissed as unworthy of defense because somebody finds us "reprehensible" or thinks we have "some screws loose somewhere".

[LLDM]

And the only reason "they find this particular homo sapien [sic] reprehensible" is because he didn't behave as a proper horse worshiper should. He did something akin to the "Christ in Piss" thing and the folks who would have lined up ten miles long to support the artist who did that are first in line with "the torches and pitchforks" to persecute the guy.

Not even close. The loose screw is about violent threats. Any successful (and generally peaceful) society can't put up with people threatening high levels of violence just because they are mad they didn't get their way. It would be just as bad if he threatened dogs, cats, pigs or cows - even deer or coyotes. We know that other mammals feel pain on the order that we (also as mammals) do. That's what makes it cruelty.

BTW - This has nothing to do with expression in art. :rolleyes: .

Human rights (and property rights) have to transcend mere "loose screws". If he should have no defense "'cause he's got some screws loose somewhere", it is a small step toward you, me, and the old lady next door being dismissed as unworthy of defense because somebody finds us "reprehensible" or thinks we have "some screws loose somewhere".

When we ignore such threats of violence, we have often paid dearly. How many more deadly rampages would you like to have? Just like no caving into kidnappers and terrorists, we can't, as a society, reward this type of behavior. It only leads to escalation.

This isn't Russia or China or Sudan. The guy is a US citizen and has literally thousands of non violent and effective options to make his voice heard and build support for his cause. For the cost of a roll of stamps he could have petitioned hundreds of like minded action groups, media outlets and heck, even yahoo groups! He had plenty of time to do so.

JSwan - I don't you think you get to make the leap to calling someone a bigot over a zoning preference. You normally make much better arguments than that.

SCFarm

[MSP]

FWIW, the parts of Weld County I've seen east of the interstate don't have McMansions on them. They have trailers and prarie dog holes (lots of both). I would imagine this guy had do to something mighty over the top to be thrown in jail for a zoning violation. FWIW, I also am not familiar with the exact area this man lives near, but I do think the name is funny.

Why didn't they give him a permit to have trailers/mobile homes on his property?

How come 9News.com hasn't looked into that?

Why is it other people in the county can get permits for mobile homes but he hasn't?

In an area that has lots of mobile homes usually means low income residents so homes being built that go for $200k might as well be McMansions.

Folks, Mobile homes are not banned in the county they require a permit. So someone gets to grant or deny the permit! Leaves lots of wiggle room to push out the undesirables and make way for the developers.

If you don't have the money to remove the trailers, build barns and a home you are forced to move horses or one self. IMO, that is pushing some one out!

I guess as long as you are the one moving in who cares, right! ;)

Right now I can still have horses but all it takes is for someone to change the definition of our residential zoning and no more horses allowed! Yes, I can just move! So instead of a 40 min. commute I can commute an hour and 30 mins just because some one living in a development far away from me under the same zoning wants to get rid of the lower income neighbor that keeps horses in his back yard. ;)

Why not! I grew up in NH. Home I grew up can no longer have horse. They zoned them out when I was living there and when my parents sold the place the new owners had to find another use for the barn! We move across town and after a few years a new development goes up near by and the complaints start all over again. Yes, lovely New England! I move all the way to no ware Mississippi and it happens all over again.

Eventually we will run out of land. So yes, follow the news lead and just concentrate on the crazy old guy that doesn't follow the laws. Never mind whether the laws and the people enforcing them are just. :uhoh:

[Ambrey]

LOL, people defending a guy who threatened to slaughter his horses to prove a point...crazy.

People defending a guy who threatened to slaughter his horses to prove a point ON A HORSE BB.... uber crazy.

There are SO many non-violent ways to make your displeasure known to your governing bodies. Have a sit in, a hunger strike, chain yourself to your mobile home. Can't people find someone who is protesting laws he does not like in a SANE way to defend?

By the way, the small farming town that is 40 minutes from my family's ranch used to have a stockyard. It's now an upscale winery town, stockyard went poof. I think it sucks. Now the cattle have to travel a lot further, because people bought in a farm town and then didn't like the smell. Lots of sane people protested.

I even have relatives who went to jail to protest the building of a nuclear power plant. They didn't have to kill any animals either, they risked only themselves.

[Schune]

And the only reason "they find this particular homo sapien [sic] reprehensible" is because he didn't behave as a proper horse worshiper should. He did something akin to the "Christ in Piss" thing and the folks who would have lined up ten miles long to support the artist who did that are first in line with "the torches and pitchforks" to persecute the guy.

Human rights (and property rights) have to transcend mere "loose screws". If he should have no defense "'cause he's got some screws loose somewhere", it is a small step toward you, me, and the old lady next door being dismissed as unworthy of defense because somebody finds us "reprehensible" or thinks we have "some screws loose somewhere".

I had a whole post typed out but then the BB ate it.

Horse worshiper? I doubt this kind of reaction is limited to those who enjoy the benefits of equine companionship. In fact, I'd bet money that your average person off the street could read this, and would be raising their eyebrow at Parker's actions. This is not exlusive merely to equestrians.

What makes most of us shake our heads, I believe, is the fact that these horses are mere collateral for this guy, or a safety policy to help ensure he gets what he wants. Granted, this isn't really that different from the millions of equine-related businesses currently operating across the country. He does have the right to own horses, as property, and to pretty much use them as he sees fit; until he does something that could or will threaten the well-being of said property.

If you want to talk about human rights, that above IS a human right, and I don't think anyone on this board would dispute it. It's a right, until you do something to cock it up. Then you get that right amended or taken away. Every day some government or form of higher-up intereferes with the lives of the daily masses - animals being confiscated, children taken away by CPS, houses foreclosed upon because somebody didn't feel like paying the mortgage, druggies being booked because they shot up heroin between their toes, the list goes on.

[jetsmom]

Yeah, I bet you'd really be upset if hispanics, blacks or gays lived near you too. God forbid some Muslims moved next door to you - they might be terrorists!:rolleyes:

If you want to live that way - it's none of my business. Takes all kinds to make a world. But it doesn't make you superior to other people, no matter how pretty your lawn is. What I gather from a great many of these posts is that many of you do indeed equate your personal tastes and preferences with moral superiority.

So anyone who does not live or act as you require is therefore a lesser person. Deserving of ridicule, derision, and justification for mistreatment and exclusion.

That is the definition of prejudice.

If this person lived in a "pretty" home in an exclusive suburb and he and his ancient horse were harassed by county employees and residents who discovered an obscure 30 year old ordinance that had never been enforced.... .all of you would be up in arms about the poor horsey. How unfair it was that this guy was targeted.

And you'd be right. Because that happens all the time - and very few people have the money and resources to fight back.

But this jerk - someone who lives on the fringes of society and isn't a sympathetic character.... nope. Get out the torches and pitchforks. You won't even consider the possibility that he might indeed have been targeted by overzealous zoning people or by new neighbors who intentionally went after him and have more political clout.

He's an "ugly" person you can't identify with so it's ok to crucify him.

Prejudice rears its ugly head again.

What I find appalling is that so many of you have expressed your so called "liberal" political leanings. Consider that you might not be as open minded, accepting, and empty of prejudice as you think you are. ;)

Good luck with your local Board and zoning in the future - because all over the US horse owners and farmers are being harassed and forced out by the same tactics used here. Find an old or obscure ordinance that no one knows about and use it to get what you want. If you can't find one, have lunch with a few Board members and work out a deal - and get one passed on the sly. Or get some little changes to plans here and there that work in development's favor.

If y'all don't think that doesn't happen then you haven't involved yourself in local politics. Small towns are the worst.

The idea that I am prejudice against hispanics, gays etc is laughable. I live in a city that is 80% Hispanic and I am the minority. MOST of my neighbors are Hispanic (even in their well kept houses with well maintained yards). I have a transgender brother and a gay cousin that I am close to. Making the stretch that just because someone doesn't want to live in a trashy neighborhood to "they must be prejudice" is ridiculous. Are you trying to imply that only white, straight, Christian people care about their neighborhood's appaearance, or their property values? That sounds more prejudicial than anything I ever wrote.

If someone wants to live where they can keep their yard however they like and have whatever they want on their property, then they should buy where the zoning allows for that. We have an area of the city where there are 800,000.00 houses next to 100,000. houses, with no zoning requirements. People have junked cars, trailers, chickens, goats and piles of trash near their houses. Of course the 800,000. house has been for sale for 2 years, with no takers, but tthat is their own fault for building a home like that in an unzoned place to start with.

And I never implied that I am superior. I stated what I did because you implied in your previous posts that zoning ordinances are horrible, and the work of the devil. I'm saying that I and some others LIKE living where you don't have to worry that your neighborhood is going to have houses that are trashy with junked cars on blocks in the front yard. Where the city can force you to clean up your yard if you have weeds higher than 12 inches in your yard. It keeps the property values up.

And being prejudice against the guy in question? He's white, non- muslim, and according to the papers from a wealthy family. Yeah..."prejudice rears it's ugly head again"...NOT. Although I am prejudiced against criminals that break laws, thwart zoning laws that they have been on the books for 28 yrs and that he has been given 2 years to conform to, and threaten to torture animals because they didn't get their way.

[MSP]

Maybe he should pack his 25 horses into a bus and move to NH. I hear Candia is a great place to live and they may let him keep his mobile homes as barns. He can buy a nice wood lot with no pasture and get a job in MA and commute 2 hours! He can join the NHunderground and fight for freedom to re-purpose mobile homes!

After all the only real solution is to sell and move. :p

BTW, are those "investment" Arabians he is breeding? Why he should be able to sell them for $50k each and build a mansion! I bet thats why those rescues are trying to take the horses from him. They want to sell those valuable horses as a fund raiser.

Oh well, I am off to go strap myself to the junked car up on block in my front yard! :D Bunch of hippies!

[JSwan]

What I find laughable is that none of you appear to be able to understand that I'm not defending the guy. And Ambrey - I find your posts to be hysterical. Still have that illegal alien working as your housekeeper?

Of course you did. These posts are full of people who think they are better than those with whom they disagree. And evidently a lot of them can't read, either.

And also miss the point completely.

Like the fact I've never implied ordinances or horrible or the work of the devil. They're not. They're perfectly legitimate. I obey and so do most folks in the area.

But how they can be used and misused IS the point. And if you are not able to grasp that concept - again - I suggest you go to any zoning meeting.

This jerk has everyone wringing their hands freaking out about something that was no more than a publicity stunt. Even though it's OBVIOUS it's a stupid stunt - your still focused on it. Save the horses! The horses don't need to be saved and never did.

But what IS interesting is how a simple zoning violation became such a big deal. And from what I have seen and experienced - it is entirely possible that a person can be harassed. Did that man bring it on himself? Maybe.

Go read Mistyblue's post. Stegall doesn't seem to post anymore which is a terrible shame.

Zoning ordinances can be used to keep a community active, safe and great to live in or around. They can also be misused.

What YOU don't realize is that the crazy guy like this could have been targeted for a reason - and it wasn't about the darn trailers. That was just what they hung their hat on.

A minor proposed change in our ordinances drew crowds to a meeting and it became a screaming match. In the next county over, and old man was mercilessly harassed by zoning until he got rid of his ancient horse. That was in a RURAL county. The zoning people didn't want to do it. Newcomers to the county applied a LOT of money and pressure. That guy since sold out and his home was razed. Which, you see.... was the goal.

If you think you are immune to such things - you're sadly mistaken.

I can see beyond a person's personal failings, and overcome my dislike an antipathy for a person - and understand. Understanding doesn't mean I agree with him or approve of anything he has threatened to do.

A person recently posted that they have a Costco carport for a shelter. Good thing that person doesn't live near you - you might complain! Personally, I think it's a creative solution. Good for her.












And I never implied that I am superior. I stated what I did because you implied in your previous posts that zoning ordinances are horrible, and the work of the devil. I'm saying that I and some others LIKE living where you don't have to worry that your neighborhood is going to have houses that are trashy with junked cars on blocks in the front yard. Where the city can force you to clean up your yard if you have weeds higher than 12 inches in your yard. It keeps the property values up.

And being prejudice against the guy in question? He's white, non- muslim, and according to the papers from a wealthy family. Yeah..."prejudice rears it's ugly head again"...NOT. Although I am prejudiced against criminals that break laws, thwart zoning laws that they have been on the books for 28 yrs and that he has been given 2 years to conform to, and threaten to torture animals because they didn't get their way.

[JSwan]

JSwan - I don't you think you get to make the leap to calling someone a bigot over a zoning preference. You normally make much better arguments than that.

SCFarm

I didn't.

I implied the person is prejudiced against those who don't conform to her ideal. That if someone lives differently then we do - they are a lesser person or less deserving.

Because what you and I consider ideal may not be so wonderful to newcomers. And when those newcomers decide that our horses are an attractive nuisance, the roosters are too loud, or make other silly complaints - we usually don't have the money and political clout to fight them.

If you haven't experienced that - consider yourself lucky. You will soon.

Maybe y'all should start paying more attention to the threads from people who are being forced out due to zoning changes or political pressure. CT seems to be a real problem area.

[LuvMyTB]

To me, this all really comes down to picking your battles, and your priorities.

This guy has had since, what, 2007 to comply with the code violations? I assume he appealed the violations/went through whatever due process so that he wouldn't have to remove the mobile homes. Apparently he lost, and has still refused to fix the problems or generally behave in a civil way (recent assault charge), so now he's going to jail and will have to give up "his" horses.

In this situation he chose being right/making his point over keeping his horses. Is it fair that he had to make that choice? Maybe not, but sometimes you have to play the game to get what you want. $hit happens in life and you have to make the best out of bad situations. Seems to me he could have given up the fight with the town/county, removed the trailers, and ultimately he could have kept his animals.

Reminds me of the Chicago carriage horse issue. The carriage company *knew* that the Chicago political machine was after them for whatever reason, and their operating license was denied for 2009....they chose to keep fighting it, kept their horses inside the Chicago city limits while appealing the denial....and the Machine went ahead and took their horses. Fair? Definitely not. But they were fighting a losing battle, and they lost, more than they had to.

[greysandbays]

Originally Posted by greysandbays http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=4336792#post4336792)
And the only reason "they find this particular homo sapien [sic] reprehensible" is because he didn't behave as a proper horse worshiper should. He did something akin to the "Christ in Piss" thing and the folks who would have lined up ten miles long to support the artist who did that are first in line with "the torches and pitchforks" to persecute the guy.

Not even close. The loose screw is about violent threats. Any successful (and generally peaceful) society can't put up with people threatening high levels of violence just because they are mad they didn't get their way. It would be just as bad if he threatened dogs, cats, pigs or cows - even deer or coyotes. We know that other mammals feel pain on the order that we (also as mammals) do. That's what makes it cruelty.

BTW - This has nothing to do with expression in art. :rolleyes: .

But it does have to do with desecration of something somebody considers sacred. I assure you, that for devout Christians, that "Christ in Piss" thing was every bit as horrific to them as the idea of gutting and bludgeoning horses on the courthouse steps is to horse worshipers. Only difference is Christians have to "turn the other cheek". Horse worshipers can stand up on their hind legs and thump their chests about how wonderful they are and HOW DARE HE?!?!?!


Human rights (and property rights) have to transcend mere "loose screws". If he should have no defense "'cause he's got some screws loose somewhere", it is a small step toward you, me, and the old lady next door being dismissed as unworthy of defense because somebody finds us "reprehensible" or thinks we have "some screws loose somewhere".

When we ignore such threats of violence, we have often paid dearly. How many more deadly rampages would you like to have? Just like no caving into kidnappers and terrorists, we can't, as a society, reward this type of behavior. It only leads to escalation.

When we act like idiots in response to "such threats of violence" that are just publicity stunts, we encourage escalation of such stunts. If the guy had a point beyond just letting off steam, you don't think the hysteria that erupted over his "threats" was plenty of "reward" for his behavior? If he thinks "You Can't Fight City Hall", he might be up for poking City Hall (and everybody else) in the eye on his way out.

This isn't Russia or China or Sudan. The guy is a US citizen and has literally thousands of non violent and effective options to make his voice heard and build support for his cause. For the cost of a roll of stamps he could have petitioned hundreds of like minded action groups, media outlets and heck, even yahoo groups! He had plenty of time to do so.

Oh, yeah, in the US of A, we use "civilized" methods to squash people we don't like -- methods like zoning regulations, eminent domain, passing laws, and other such means of controlling people.

SCFarm
Don't kid yourself. The little guy doesn't stand a chance when "City Hall" goes on the prowl. The little guy has about two choices: roll over and give up without a fight or cause as much damage as possible in the process of losing the fight.

You don't have to look any further than the Prince of Chappaquiddick for proof that who you are and how well connected you are determines what you will be permitted to get away with...

[myvanya]

What I find laughable is that none of you appear to be able to understand that I'm not defending the guy. And Ambrey - I find your posts to be hysterical. Still have that illegal alien working as your housekeeper?

Of course you did. These posts are full of people who think they are better than those with whom they disagree. And evidently a lot of them can't read, either.

And also miss the point completely.

Like the fact I've never implied ordinances or horrible or the work of the devil. They're not. They're perfectly legitimate. I obey and so do most folks in the area.

But how they can be used and misused IS the point. And if you are not able to grasp that concept - again - I suggest you go to any zoning meeting.

This jerk has everyone wringing their hands freaking out about something that was no more than a publicity stunt. Even though it's OBVIOUS it's a stupid stunt - your still focused on it. Save the horses! The horses don't need to be saved and never did.

But what IS interesting is how a simple zoning violation became such a big deal. And from what I have seen and experienced - it is entirely possible that a person can be harassed. Did that man bring it on himself? Maybe.

Go read Mistyblue's post. Stegall doesn't seem to post anymore which is a terrible shame.

Zoning ordinances can be used to keep a community active, safe and great to live in or around. They can also be misused.

What YOU don't realize is that the crazy guy like this could have been targeted for a reason - and it wasn't about the darn trailers. That was just what they hung their hat on.

A minor proposed change in our ordinances drew crowds to a meeting and it became a screaming match. In the next county over, and old man was mercilessly harassed by zoning until he got rid of his ancient horse. That was in a RURAL county. The zoning people didn't want to do it. Newcomers to the county applied a LOT of money and pressure. That guy since sold out and his home was razed. Which, you see.... was the goal.

If you think you are immune to such things - you're sadly mistaken.

I can see beyond a person's personal failings, and overcome my dislike an antipathy for a person - and understand. Understanding doesn't mean I agree with him or approve of anything he has threatened to do.

A person recently posted that they have a Costco carport for a shelter. Good thing that person doesn't live near you - you might complain! Personally, I think it's a creative solution. Good for her.


I understand you are not defending him. I understand he MAY have been targeted, though we really don't know one way or the other on that. I understand that this guy must feel rather stuck regardless of the cause of the situation, however, as I stated before, I take issue with someone willing to even threaten violence against his horses in a fit of rage or as a temper tantrum no matter how frustrated he is. It was completely innapropriate. Based on that I feel (and it is just my opinion) that he should not be permitted to own horses because he was willing to even suggest abusing them, and to do it publicly is even worse. Whether an empty threat or not it shows a disregard for the health and safety of animals in his care and as such I don't feel he should have them.

And the zoning issue has two sides. Just as there are developers and people coming into rural areas from cities pushing out existing residents forcefully by abusing zoning laws there are also residents of existing towns, counties and cities using existing ordinances to prevent growth that would be healthy and beneficial especially given the state of the economy. Development in areas without existing residents and without any current use have been blocked due to zoning laws or, even better, "endangered species protection." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preble's_meadow_jumping_mouse As an example this mouse has blocked a considerable amount of development in Colorado. Some of it I appreciate. Some of it I don't- like the government wasting thousands of tax dollars to make a ridiculously complicated hghway on/off ramp so it could avoid this mouse that may or may not actually be a valid subspecies...oh, and there was no evidence that the mouse was even in that particular spot, but it could have been. So yes, many laws and ordinances can be abused and in many ways, but until we stop using human beings who are flawed to run our governments and/or establish a more effectve incentive system for our government to actualyl do what benefits US, than we are going to have to just do our best.

So I see your points Jswan, I really do. I can even feel some understanding for this guy, but at the same time I can also feel that he has no business owning horses and that he is a really crappy human being who has made a long string of bad decisions that got him to this point. And I can see two sides to the zoning issues...it all depends on a lot of things so I think to say that any of these issues are clear cut would be to over simplify.

[LLDM]

Never mind - This is like arguing with a dining room table. :rolleyes:

Yes, there are laws that suck and are misused. Any law or rule can be misapplied. No, not all officials, elected or otherwise are perfect paragons of virtue.

Gee, it is even the case that those who live on the fringes have a harder time than those who don't. Welcome to reality. It doesn't give them license to do or say whatever they want. There are limits to everybody's freedom. There are rights, but there are also responsibilities.

IMO this guy blew it. You are welcome to disagree. But it really isn't an example of all the governments ills and the plight of the little people - even though a bunch of you all want it to be.

Pick a better example. There are some around here that would work much better to make your points. oh, but they wouldn't work because some of these "little people" were actually able to win their cases.

Oh, and G&B - you are so right - only wealthy and famous people ever get away with anything - really! :uhoh::rolleyes::lol:

SCFarm

[Huntertwo]

Yeah, I bet you'd really be upset if hispanics, blacks or gays lived near you too. God forbid some Muslims moved next door to you - they might be terrorists!:rolleyes:

If you want to live that way - it's none of my business. Takes all kinds to make a world. But it doesn't make you superior to other people, no matter how pretty your lawn is. What I gather from a great many of these posts is that many of you do indeed equate your personal tastes and preferences with moral superiority.

So anyone who does not live or act as you require is therefore a lesser person. Deserving of ridicule, derision, and justification for mistreatment and exclusion.



Totally agree with Jetsmom. She didn't give the impression of being superior. Just doesn't want to look out her window and look at #hit and junk all over someones front yard. Her prerogative.

We did the same thing when looking for property. Saw some nice lots to build, but when seeing that the Hatfield's and McCoy's lived next door, ummm nope - not going to live next to trash like that.

Had nothing to do with ridicule, derision or exclusion. Just don't want to look out my window and see that.

[Arcadien]

Totally agree with Jetsmom. She didn't give the impression of being superior. Just doesn't want to look out her window and look at #hit and junk all over someones front yard. Her prerogative.

We did the same thing when looking for property. Saw some nice lots to build, but when seeing that the Hatfield's and McCoy's lived next door, ummm nope - not going to live next to trash like that.

Had nothing to do with ridicule, derision or exclusion. Just don't want to look out my window and see that.

What you guys seem to be missing completely is that zoning laws can & WILL change, almost always in the direction of non-horse friendly.

Or, the laws could be there, but no one seems concerned about them, until suddenly someone want to interpret them differently, or enforce a law that has been ignored for 3 decades. It happens every day.

Why should you care? If you like to ride horses, you should care. Population is exploding, most of those people what to live in suburbia, and most of those people do not want to live within a square mile or two of the least waft of horse manure smell. Even if you do not have your horse at your home, you are still in jeopardy as the place you keep your horse is in jeopardy.

Not immediate jeopardy maybe, but there is no way out of it - people are moving toward you and your horses, and they won't want to live next to them. Some of them may think they do, but trust me, after they move, they won't want to anymore. And then they will have the money and majority to make changes to get rid of the horses.

The only way to stop this is to protect one of our basic rights as Americans - the right to own property. And understand intrinsically what it means, and be very sensitive to when it is being threatened.

This has NOTHING to do with murdering or torturing horses. I can't believe any of you think he'd actually do it. I'm positive he never had any attention of doing it. He had to use this dramatic statement to WAKE UP those who are comfortably slumbering along thinking no one will ever dare try to take any rights from THEM. Okay, he's not the brightest tool in the shed, but he's been around a long time, sees how things have changed, sees the threat, and even now that his life is probably shot as far as his own happiness, he is giving you this gift -

His little stunt brought this little issue right in front of your eyes. To hear what he is really saying, you have to look past his threat to kill those horses (he never intended to) and see what he is really saying - "this could happen to you too! Better look out, stand up now and protect your way of living, or you will be thrown out one day, just like I was!"

That (I think) is what JSwan is trying to pound into you, and though I can't be here as much, I will try to help! The core issue behind this is so broad, I think that's why many of you don't understand yet - look beyond the surface. Try to look at this as throwing all that tea in the harbor. Stop worrying about mutilated horses (remember he never intended to carry it out) it look deeper into why this man is so fundamentally upset at losing the right to do exactly as he pleases with his own property. Picture a red white & blue flag waving over fields if you must...

Do you see it yet?

[Nomoreusernames]

Real nice "CIVILization" we've established as a "superior species".

[lcw579]

Quoting this because it was well put and seemed to get lost in the pi**ing match that is going on:


What you guys seem to be missing completely is that zoning laws can & WILL change, almost always in the direction of non-horse friendly.

Or, the laws could be there, but no one seems concerned about them, until suddenly someone want to interpret them differently, or enforce a law that has been ignored for 3 decades. It happens every day.

Why should you care? If you like to ride horses, you should care. Population is exploding, most of those people what to live in suburbia, and most of those people do not want to live within a square mile or two of the least waft of horse manure smell. Even if you do not have your horse at your home, you are still in jeopardy as the place you keep your horse is in jeopardy.

Not immediate jeopardy maybe, but there is no way out of it - people are moving toward you and your horses, and they won't want to live next to them. Some of them may think they do, but trust me, after they move, they won't want to anymore. And then they will have the money and majority to make changes to get rid of the horses.

The only way to stop this is to protect one of our basic rights as Americans - the right to own property. And understand intrinsically what it means, and be very sensitive to when it is being threatened.

This has NOTHING to do with murdering or torturing horses. I can't believe any of you think he'd actually do it. I'm positive he never had any attention of doing it. He had to use this dramatic statement to WAKE UP those who are comfortably slumbering along thinking no one will ever dare try to take any rights from THEM. Okay, he's not the brightest tool in the shed, but he's been around a long time, sees how things have changed, sees the threat, and even now that his life is probably shot as far as his own happiness, he is giving you this gift -

His little stunt brought this little issue right in front of your eyes. To hear what he is really saying, you have to look past his threat to kill those horses (he never intended to) and see what he is really saying - "this could happen to you too! Better look out, stand up now and protect your way of living, or you will be thrown out one day, just like I was!"

That (I think) is what JSwan is trying to pound into you, and though I can't be here as much, I will try to help! The core issue behind this is so broad, I think that's why many of you don't understand yet - look beyond the surface. Try to look at this as throwing all that tea in the harbor. Stop worrying about mutilated horses (remember he never intended to carry it out) it look deeper into why this man is so fundamentally upset at losing the right to do exactly as he pleases with his own property. Picture a red white & blue flag waving over fields if you must...

Do you see it yet?


This is the heart of the whole matter.

[Appassionato]

What you guys seem to be missing completely is that zoning laws can & WILL change, almost always in the direction of non-horse friendly.

Or, the laws could be there, but no one seems concerned about them, until suddenly someone want to interpret them differently, or enforce a law that has been ignored for 3 decades. It happens every day.

Why should you care? If you like to ride horses, you should care. Population is exploding, most of those people what to live in suburbia, and most of those people do not want to live within a square mile or two of the least waft of horse manure smell. Even if you do not have your horse at your home, you are still in jeopardy as the place you keep your horse is in jeopardy.

Not immediate jeopardy maybe, but there is no way out of it - people are moving toward you and your horses, and they won't want to live next to them. Some of them may think they do, but trust me, after they move, they won't want to anymore. And then they will have the money and majority to make changes to get rid of the horses.

The only way to stop this is to protect one of our basic rights as Americans - the right to own property. And understand intrinsically what it means, and be very sensitive to when it is being threatened.

This has NOTHING to do with murdering or torturing horses. I can't believe any of you think he'd actually do it. I'm positive he never had any attention of doing it. He had to use this dramatic statement to WAKE UP those who are comfortably slumbering along thinking no one will ever dare try to take any rights from THEM. Okay, he's not the brightest tool in the shed, but he's been around a long time, sees how things have changed, sees the threat, and even now that his life is probably shot as far as his own happiness, he is giving you this gift -

His little stunt brought this little issue right in front of your eyes. To hear what he is really saying, you have to look past his threat to kill those horses (he never intended to) and see what he is really saying - "this could happen to you too! Better look out, stand up now and protect your way of living, or you will be thrown out one day, just like I was!"

That (I think) is what JSwan is trying to pound into you, and though I can't be here as much, I will try to help! The core issue behind this is so broad, I think that's why many of you don't understand yet - look beyond the surface. Try to look at this as throwing all that tea in the harbor. Stop worrying about mutilated horses (remember he never intended to carry it out) it look deeper into why this man is so fundamentally upset at losing the right to do exactly as he pleases with his own property. Picture a red white & blue flag waving over fields if you must...

Do you see it yet?

Agreed completely with this and others like JSwan.

What the guy said was stupid. I think we are all in agreement with that. As far as the guy's criminal history coming into play in all this, I'm on the fence. I've seen politics first hand as a jailor in two different counties in my state. One was metro ATL, the other in middle GA in a county of 10K people in it. It was the same in both places. So rap sheets don't mean as much to me as it does for the average person. Then again it was my job to deal with maintaining rap sheets, so maybe I'm a bit jaded about the system. Know how easy it is to get a charge on someone? Your word. That's about it. "Evidence" is for court. Note that I used quotes there, it was for a reason.

It's true that even for boarders, rural or urban areas, this ought to be a wake up call. Haven't some of you seen trail riding areas become closed to horses because the runners/bicyclists don't like poop? Let's get past the stupidity of his 3 separate threats of how this guy would kill the horses, since he's not going to do it, and look at the big picture: people don't like your farm/animals/landscaping/house/whatever as much as you do. Yes, he broke the law. But it sure smells strange that they waited this long to bring it up. Or am I missing something? How long have the trailers been there? Anyone know?

[Carolinadreamin']

Why should you care? If you like to ride horses, you should care. Population is exploding, most of those people what to live in suburbia, and most of those people do not want to live within a square mile or two of the least waft of horse manure smell. Even if you do not have your horse at your home, you are still in jeopardy as the place you keep your horse is in jeopardy.


My trainer/BO leases her land, 200 acres. When we're out in the dressage arena or cross country field, we can now hear the construction equipment from all the neighborhoods they are now building, steadily encroaching upon the property. We know it's just a matter of time before the zoning is changed, the barn closed, we're all dispersed to other places and our small piece of heaven is no more. Soon after, a huge subdivision will then be built, cramming as many houses as possible on to the land. One day some small child will discover an old horse shoe in his or her back yard, pick it up and wonder where it came from.

[JSwan]

Quoting this because it was well put and seemed to get lost in the pi**ing match that is going on:

This is the heart of the whole matter.

Agreed - and it is very well put.

Look beyond the really really bad reporting - look beyond the fluff and outbursts. THAT is where the real story is. Below the surface.

The real story may be pretty interesting. But discovering it would require a person to step outside himself - set aside his prejudices and biases - and be objective. Consider alternative explanations - find out what's been going on for not only the past two years - but before that.

There are hints. The population has increased dramatically in the past few years. It's an up and coming area. Lots of newcomers. That means pressure from developers. Speculators buying up land. Local politicians start feeling pressure. They start pressuring gov't. Gov't starts pressuring people. People fight back.

That's normal. It's so normal it's even predictable. Guess who always loses. The established residents. The ones with small farms, the horse owners - they're the ones who are zoned out or taxed and regulated out of existence.

What is also predictable - but unfortunate - is that so many folks won't get past the over the top emotional reaction and their thinking stops there.

Or that if a person attempts to delve deeper or offers alternative explanations - the only retort is that the person is defending or approves of animal abuse.

Which makes my rolly eye muscles very very tired. Things are never that black and white.

[Moderator 1]

We've removed a recent tangent to refocus the thread more closely on the original topic. Please keep it there.

Thanks,
Mod 1

[LLDM]

I'm still trying to figure out who on this thread knows this dude so well that they are SURE he isn't some unstable maniac?

He probably isn't, but in this day and age not directly dealing with the possibility is ridiculous.

And that's why so many people are reacting to the threats. In comparison, zoning issues are tame and secondary. I just don't think you guys are successfully going to turn the argument into one about zoning under the circumstances. It's just too distracting. But carry on if you must.

SCFarm

[Arcadien]

I'm still trying to figure out who on this thread knows this dude so well that they are SURE he isn't some unstable maniac?

He probably isn't, but in this day and age not directly dealing with the possibility is ridiculous.

And that's why so many people are reacting to the threats. In comparison, zoning issues are tame and secondary. I just don't think you guys are successfully going to turn the argument into one about zoning under the circumstances. It's just too distracting. But carry on if you must.

SCFarm

We can't be SURE he won't execute/mutilate his horses.

Anymore than we can be sure you, or any other poster on here today, might snap and do something hideous & reprehensible like that. I mean, mostly all people who actually do those kinds of things, do NOT announce it ahead of time.

I am pretty damn sure he won't, though. And that he never intended to. Why? Read between the lines. He's an old bird. He's never done anything like that before. The horses currently in his care, by all accounts so far, are in good weight & seem well taken care of.

He's set up a pretty comfortable home for them, exceeding standards. Once laws came down on his set up to the effect that he knew he would not be able to care for the horses anymore, at a time when all rescues are beyond full, and any horse that leaves ones personal care has an even bigger question mark than usual over it's poll, he fought the legal system for two years, with the goal of having them leave him alone to care properly for his horses like he always has. When in spite of his best full out efforts he failed, he lost his temper (who wouldn't) then thought of a way to bring his plight (and that of his horses) quickly to national attention.

Anyway, like I said, I could be wrong. But given the evidence so far, I'd be expecting any one of you COTH posters, excepting the half dozen or so I've met & gotten to know personally, to suddenly euthanize & then mutiliate the horses in your care. After all, as far as I've seen, the people who actually DO such a thing do not announce it to the world first. So who knows?

So I focus on the only obvious truth, that laws were invented/brought forth to force this old man to lose his property & thus his horses.

I rise to fight against *this* - the denial of his rights to do what he wanted on his property. Nothing else is 100% clear here to me, but the fact that the whole thing erupted because he was told what he could or could not do with his property, is clear.

And that is enough (for me at least) to raise a loud voice in defense of his American rights to own - and do what he wants with - property.

And I'm glad to my bones that I'm not the only one who understands why this is important ;)

Arcadien
(Off to bed, but will check in tomorrow!)

[Ambrey]

Anymore than we can be sure you, or any other poster on here today, might snap and do something hideous & reprehensible like that. I mean, mostly all people who actually do those kinds of things, do NOT announce it ahead of time.


So you really think threatening to do such a thing doesn't increase the actual likelyhood of DOING it?

Because I've never threatened a horse in my life, nor have... oh, any of the people I regularly read on this board. In fact, I suspect most of us would find the mere thought of threatening such a thing reprehensible.

[rosijet]

A quick search of Weld County's web site yielded this:

http://www.co.weld.co.us/meetings-minutes/Minutespast/minutes2002/mi032702.html (http://www.co.weld.co.us/meetings-minutes/Minutespast/minutes2002/mi032702.html)

Scroll down about halfway.

[Kaleigh007]

Unless he has been convicted of blowing people up - he's innocent.

Hardly a sympathetic character, I agree. But there are many people with whom I disagree on various issues.

And I'd be horrified that their animals were taken away over a minor zoning violation.

He's going to jail for contempt - not assault. Contempt probably means he talked back to a judge.

Meh.

I'll save my anger over cases of animal abuse. It's not a crime to dislike government or believe in conspiracy theories. A person can believe the moon landing was staged and still take good care of his animals.

I never thought I'd live to see the day I felt sorry for a crooked wanna be right wing politician. :no:


Don't waste any pity on those crooked right wingers...you won't have any left for the plethora of left wing loony crooks:yes:

[JSwan]

:lol:

I figured there was more to the story. Complex dispute going back years, with various players having competing interests, possibly clouded title, different interpretation of ordinances, serious and complex legal disputes that don't involve zoning at all, different holding companies, upset new neighbors, possibly more than just one crazy person... oh yes. I can well imagine that being a big mess for years.
And for a county really focusing on its urban planning, something that would be a real thorn in its side.

That is MUCH more revealing than any bit of yellow journalism in the local paper. ;)

There is always more to the story - more than what is on the surface.

[Ambrey]

OMG, who was the one who guessed that the horses were ARABS and worth MILLIONS OF DOLLARS?

Which of you in agricultural areas volunteers to have a mobile home junkyard as your next door neighbor in place of that hayfield?

[LLDM]

What does yellow journalism have to do with any of that? The news people were covering a violent threat made to a government agency. You all are the ones who ran with the whole zoning issue trying to make that the big story.

Like the rest of us have been saying, it isn't really about the zoning. Turns out the back story is really a family feud over the inheritance of family land. It's a pissing match. But doesn't seem to have crap to do with zoning, citiots or cronyism. And yes they all sound crazy enough to go off the rails.

SCFarm

[JSwan]

Bit naive, aren't you [Ambrey]? Where I live, horses are insured for 5 and 6 figures quite often.

You know - why aren't y'all freaking out that the owner of the horses let a bloodbath occur and one was seriously injured! Maybe the local paper will run an article on that. Oooo -

I bet that's the most interesting thing that's happened in that county since the Gold Rush. It's a big fat zoning mess with competing interests and different interpretation of language, and people upset that their pretty view is affected.

It's yellow journalism because there was no substance to the story - it was sensationalized and not placed into context, even though people with knowledge of the history were interviewed. "If it bleeds, it leads".


And that guy had no intention of ever hurting a horse - but boy was he heavily involved in that zoning dispute as are the "Country Estates" new neighbors.

Maybe if he had put up a bunch of dayglo orange Costco carports or a hog farm y'all would have liked that better.

[Ambrey]

Bit naive, aren't you [Ambrey]? Where I live, horses are insured for 5 and 6 figures quite often.


Oh, yes, I am naive because I don't believe that this guy has 2.5 million dollars worth of horses living on a mobile home junkyard and living in stalls made of more old gutted mobile homes ;)

[edit]

[JSwan]

Well, if you were more involved in the horse world you might be surprised at how folks keep their horses across the US.

And they're not his horses. You actually need to read and comprehend to understand that it's a long standing zoning dispute involving holding companies, clouds on title, and competing interests that impact the zoning dispute but are litigated elsewhere.


Some people keep fugly horses in expensive barns, and keep pedigreed horses in very humble surroundings. A good horseman knows that and isn't so quick to judge the worth of horseflesh based on the presence of gleaming brass in the barn. [edit]

Please - no more protestations that the horses were going to be killed. If y'all are more interested in the guy's politics, want to ridicule the figure the horses are insured for, are really worried about your views, height of the grass, and the superficial trappings of "normal".... the welfare of horses is NOT your primary concern.

[tkhawk]

Just noticed the minutes are from 2002. So there is a lot of water under the bridge and also noticed these two sections. So it is a total of 118 acres of which they were going to split it into 1/2 to 5 acre lots -each valued between 1.5 to million and two million -each. Now obviously this is 2009 and the mobile units are still there and so this is defnitely some other issue.

Joseph Danelock, President and CEO of Land Home Development Systems, stated he purchased the property from Ms. Thomas' sister and eventually they will put two and one-half to five-acre lots with $1.5 Million to $2 Million homes in. Mr. Danelock explained that, unfortunately, the individual from whom he purchased the property is the sister of Ms. Thomas, and that the two of them have rivals since the death of their mother, and his company has been caught in the middle of it.
Mr. Danelock stated the entire section shown in pink on the overhead, without the small square, is approximately 118 acres which was owned by the parents. When the mother died, it was to be split between the two daughters, and in going through this process, they have paid Ms. Thomas' sister tens of thousands of dollars to help her get ownership clarified in the legal process so they can actually have clear title to the land

[greysandbays]

So you really think threatening to do such a thing doesn't increase the actual likelyhood of DOING it?

Because I've never threatened a horse in my life, nor have... oh, any of the people I regularly read on this board. In fact, I suspect most of us would find the mere thought of threatening such a thing reprehensible.

Don't be sillier than the Good Lord made ya. Everybody who has ever done anything remotely serious with horses (beyond showing up at the "church" ...ummm... boarding stable, kneeling at the altar, making offerings, and paying homage to their god Equus Caballus) has "threatened" a horse at some point.

Horses, being horses, are frequently on the receiving end of some pretty colorful verbage, aspersions on their parentage, and "threats" on their person from the people who have to put up with their foolishness. Probably 99% of it is harmless and nothing more than a way to express disapproval for the horse's behavior and let off some steam.

[MistyBlue]

Mine have definitely been threatened with cans of Alpo more than once. :yes:

[LLDM]

Look, I will give this: Just because he threatened them does not mean he will (or intends) to harm them.

However it is equally ridiculous to assume that because he threatened them that they are IMMUNE to him harming them.

People snap - and way to often to be of comfort. Nice "normal" people murder their wives and children in their own homes. Or drive their children into a lake or drown them in the bathtub. Many people kill themselves too, often after threatening to do so for years. Sometimes they take a whole bunch of other people with them. No one believes them. No one listens. Y'all have no reason what so ever to dismiss the threat.

So yes, that is the story. There was background on the zoning issue. That's what got a bunch of you all riled up. But it turns out that these people are just the people you don't like. Oops. The family feud is technically irrelevant to why this dude is going to jail. Or did you expect a 30 minute expose on this?

Look, there are plenty of stories germane to terrible zoning issues, corruption in Government and poor policy making. This just isn't one of them.

SCFarm

[rosijet]

Just want to clarify that Country Estates is a very modest subdivision with most of the homes built in the 70's on 8-9 acre lots. This is definitely not an area made up of McMansions.

I tried to find some more minutes discussing this issue (because I do think it's interesting!) but was unsuccessful.

[Paragon]

Nope - I"m getting a good laugh out of the fact that a crochety old jerk can make a stupid empty threat and get some many people in an uproar. You've been had.

Look at how many people still freak out over PETA and their stunts. We live in a world of complete farking idiots.

[Ambrey]

Just want to clarify that Country Estates is a very modest subdivision with most of the homes built in the 70's on 8-9 acre lots. This is definitely not an area made up of McMansions.

Ah, yet another effort to make this about McMansions foiled.

But I'm sure in the end there will be a mansion SOMEWHERE that justifies putting out a flyer asking for help "publicly execute 24 registered horses as a way to protest the zoning codes."

Because it's really not possible that this just just about a crazy guy.

[JSwan]

Look at how many people still freak out over PETA and their stunts. We live in a world of complete farking idiots.


Yeah - if he followed their model he would have taken his clothes off and run around naked. Hope he's not reading this and gets any more bright ideas. :lol:

Digging deeper, since few of you seemed interested in the background leading up to this.... in PACER I found multiple lawsuits (unfortunately I no longer have an active account so can't see much). One recent and ongoing. Federal court.

There is a tremendous change in land use in that area, including multiple applications for change in plans to permit higher density, and extremely upscale types of housing. More paved roads, more public services, big box retail, "doggie day care", etc. Also applications for running sewer, expanding facilities, etc. A 30% increase in population in less than 10 years is pretty dramatic, and fits in with the increase in activity in the planning office. It's becoming a much more urban area, and they seem to have a "thing" about mobile homes - judging from the hoops you have to jump through to house - OMG - the migrant workers. Ewwww.:no:

So yeah - I could see a dispute becoming very ugly and being tied up for years. Quiet title could take a long time, multiple LLC's, oh yeah. Quite messy. Not sure why ya'll would think that would show up in zoning minutes since most likely this has been tied up in court for years. (and/or private negotiations.)

But oddly enough, no matter what the horses have been cared for. At least I could find no evidence of anyone being accused of neglect or abuse.

We had a poster here who was all sunshine and roses and turned out to be guilty of neglecting her horses. Perfectly "normal" people are guilty of the most horrendous crimes - and some are stupid enough to gloat about it. Other people just scream and holler. No one has suggested that law enforcement should disregard threats. Don't be ridiculous! What folks like me have pointed out is that so many of you are absolutely freaking about it. If law enforcement took every single outburst seriously half the population would be in Gitmo.

That jerk is full of.... hot air. Bitter crochety old crook that exhausted his remedies and basically flipped everyone the bird before being carted off. Let's just hope he keeps his clothes on.

[Paragon]

The biggest bummer of all is that I watched those videos. I saw the property. And to this ruralite who spent the past six years in Ohio, it all looked very, very normal. So normal as to be completely unremarkable.

Very unfortunate situation.

[lcw579]

So you really think threatening to do such a thing doesn't increase the actual likelyhood of DOING it?

Because I've never threatened a horse in my life, nor have... oh, any of the people I regularly read on this board. In fact, I suspect most of us would find the mere thought of threatening such a thing reprehensible.

:lol::lol: Seriously? You've never threatened a horse? What have you only been riding for 2 weeks? :lol::lol:

Mine have definitely been threatened with cans of Alpo more than once. :yes:

One of my favorites. And with New Holland not too far away that makes good one for them too! ;)


As for the man's horsekeeping skills, I knew some very nice horses who foaled out in the fields with no assistance and used old stock trailers for sheds. At least one of those foals went to the Olympics and more than one of the horses were household names (well in horsey households) in their day. So doesn't really matter what it all looks like, just that they are safe, fed and happy. Personally, I find some of the "Stepford Farms" a bit too sterile for my taste.

[minnie]

Have threatened mine with the "glue factory" because if they were turned into alpo they'd give every dog who ate them indigestion!

[Ambrey]

:lol::lol: Seriously? You've never threatened a horse? What have you only been riding for 2 weeks? :lol::lol:


Errr, no, I just usually don't threaten violence even when I'm angry. Apparently it's an odd thought for people.

Of course, in my horse's case, I threaten something much worse. I threaten to cut back his feed, a fate worse than death to him.

As for nice horses in odd circumstances... sure. Just not buying it in this case. Nor in the other cases on this board in which people have announced that their band of arabs were worth millions :) Even those with "amazing breeding."

[Cloverbarley]

"He's had x years to remove the mobile homes from his property and build proper hay barns". Now I have no idea on this but just how much do you think it would cost him to have all those mobile homes removed? Let alone add on the cost to replace them all with *proper* hay barns? A pretty penny I'd imagine.

"I like my view and don't want anyone changing it". Too bad I say, if you don't like what is being put up next to you then go in there and buy the land to *save* it from turning into whatever. Or do what I did, buy a farm where the view is owned by me; I am in total control of what I look out on every day - suits me just fine.

I have no doubt whatsoever that this man (crazy dude that he is) is being run out of town. Developers, planners more than likely have plans in the pipeline and it does not involve Mr Parker...

[lcw579]

Errr, no, I just usually don't threaten violence even when I'm angry. Apparently it's an odd thought for people.
"

Sometimes my threats are spoken in a very loving voice and not in anger at all. :winkgrin: You learn the power of the word "Alpo" early when you ride a bunch of naughty ponies as a kid.

[JSwan]

The biggest bummer of all is that I watched those videos. I saw the property. And to this ruralite who spent the past six years in Ohio, it all looked very, very normal. So normal as to be completely unremarkable.

Very unfortunate situation.

Agreed. When land values skyrocket - the definition of "normal" changes. I know of very few newcomers near me who bought a place and kept the house and structures. Even houses used as Civil War hospitals. Invariably the place is razed and 4000sq ft houses are put up and everything paved over or landscaped. Now THAT looks out of place and yet there isn't a whole lot that can be done - even if the person infringes on my property rights. Depends on who that person knows at the planning office or on the Board.

There is a development a little north of me - very fishy business. Land is zoned ag - developer bought it and somehow retained the ag zoning with very interesting covenants. Covenants that forbid farming, but allow helipads. That made it through the planning office - very quietly. Land went for a song as farmland. Now it's worth millions but the owners get land use valuation and can have their own helipad. But no farrming allowed except for horses. A real sneaky pete.

I threatened to sell my horse to the Amish so he'd know what its really like to work for a living. ;) Didn't put up any flyers though.

Oh - and how about all the sales/broker ads saying - come get this horse or I'll sell him to slaughter! Boy do folks get up in arms - we need to save the horse! Meanwhile the seller is laughing all the way to the bank.

On another thread a person mentioned the "death panel" hysteria.

Boy oh boy do folks love to get up in arms with little to no information. :lol:

If y'all want to see some real abuse or cruelty I'm sure the horse rescue folks on this BB could show you plenty. Save the outrage for the real thing.

[Ambrey]

Sometimes my threats are spoken in a very loving voice and not in anger at all. :winkgrin: You learn the power of the word "Alpo" early when you ride a bunch of naughty ponies as a kid.

LOL, "alpo" is not a violent threat any more than selling the kids on e-bay is a threat. Because there aren't really horses in alpo, and they don't really allow kids on e-bay ;)

If I saw someone riding by on a misbehaving horse and they said "I'm going to shoot you in the head tonight." I'd probably go :eek:. It's more like threatening to beat the kids senseless.

But I have known people who talked like that. Most of them had anger issues and led pretty bitter and unhappy lives and were pretty close to the edge most of the time. I'd guess this guy is similar. But of course, it's not his fault that he's that close to the edge- the gubmint made him do it (or the rich neighbors, you choose).

[Nomoreusernames]

Sad enough there are more and more people resorting to violence and intimidation to get their way, but rationalizing and justifying such behavior is just beyond my comprehension. What a sick society.

[JSwan]

Wow! Someone rationalized and justified the behavior?

How awful.

All I noticed is that some folks came up with possible alternative explanations, tried to ferret some facts, and dislike the tendency for people to get into an emotional, hand wringing frenzy without putting things into context.

The highly charged, emotional, knee jerk reaction is rarely supported once more facts are known.

The fact is - this is much ado about nothing. Yet a resident pointed out some really horrific cases of true abuse that merited little response on another thread.

This case isn't about horses, and it's most certainly not about animal abuse. It's about a bunch of people fighting over money, zoning, conflicts over property rights, and it's in an area that is very rapidly changing from rural to suburban/urban - with the typical political BS that goes with it. Peppered with at least one crooked old man who everyone would like to see gone anyway.

If you want to see example of a sick society - I'll show you photos of starved and beaten dogs - and others can show you photos of other animals who have suffered terrible fates. An example of a sick society would be hearing the cheers afforded the likes of Michael Vick - who quietly and methodically - and privately - tortured animals to death.

Don't give that old man so much credit. He doesn't merit it. He screwed himself and got press just so he could frighten people and make y'all dance. And dance you did. Personally, I'm intensely curious about the litigation. I bet there's a really fascinating story there, but it's not something that would make a gripping headline.

[Tamara in TN]

Mine have definitely been threatened with cans of Alpo more than once. :yes:

it's how I think of my husband:

Divorce? never
Murder? every other day ;)

best

[MistyBlue]

LMAO...I do too Tamara.
I remind him that a divorcee gets half...a widow gets it all! :D :lol: :winkgrin:

[Alagirl]

I bet there's a really fascinating story there, but it's not something that would make a gripping headline.

Sadly enough that is probably the biggest problem. The real stories and issues being swept under the rug for the outrage of the month.

[msj]

it's how I think of my husband:

Divorce? never
Murder? every other day ;)

best


Hm, I prefer my approach - it's easier (and cheaper) to hire the work out that a man would/could/should do than to have to live with one. :D

[ayrabz]

What a strange turn this thread took. I don't get it.
I don't care how bad the zoning laws are, I don't care how difficult the red tape can make things, I don't care if this guy has in the past taken good care of these horses. HE PRINTED FLYERS ASKING FOR HELP TO SHOOT THEM. He went OFF on the laws he had broken and took it out on the horses in his care. WTF? Whats the rocket science here? So zoning can be unfair and difficult. YEah! We know that. What this thread began with was his unethical and cruel attempt at disputing that, that the horses had NOTHING to do with. Why the exchange about anything BUT that?

[birdsong]

Wait. Let me get this straight. It's not his property and they are not his horses? W.T.F. ? I don't get how anyone can defend him in any case. But then again, I don't get how anyone could send him to jail either. Because, well, it's not his property and they are not his horses.

I am obviously missing something.

SCFarm

So WHO really does own this property and horses. My friend nearby there said the news reported it to be an "investment group".

What is the address? Easy enough to look into the property appraiser's site.

[birdsong]

What a strange turn this thread took. I don't get it.
I don't care how bad the zoning laws are, I don't care how difficult the red tape can make things, I don't care if this guy has in the past taken good care of these horses. HE PRINTED FLYERS ASKING FOR HELP TO SHOOT THEM. He went OFF on the laws he had broken and took it out on the horses in his care. WTF? Whats the rocket science here? So zoning can be unfair and difficult. YEah! We know that. What this thread began with was his unethical and cruel attempt at disputing that, that the horses had NOTHING to do with. Why the exchange about anything BUT that?

I AGREE, Whew did this thread ever become something different IMO.....And I DO think he is capable of following through on his threat until someone stops him. I guess the folks in that area that know him thinks so too.

JSwan..you are most entertaining...are you a lawyer???:winkgrin: You sometimes have more to say in one post than I do in an entire day...I'm awstruck..teehee

[Parker_Rider]

Anyone else see this whackjob's interview with 9News last night?

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=122290&catid=339

Basically: These horses were going to suffer with someone else or be put down. I made the hard decision to put them down..

I want to know, since when does threatening to publicly execute a horse by "[stabbing] them in the belly three or four times, killing the foal and then [bashing] the mare's brains in" count as "Making the hard decision to put the horse down?"

Ugh. This guy just makes me sick. And did I hear somewhere that this guy made a run for the senate???? (I was kind of sleepy yesterday - been fending off a migraine all week so that could be completely off base!)

[JSwan]

I AGREE, Whew did this thread ever become something different IMO.....

Let's just say I'm not one to freak out about everything that is in the newspaper or shouted by crazy people, including people whose canned response to any sensational headline is, OMG!

I also don't believe the gov't is going to pull the plug on Grandma.

But I am starting to believe that Dick Cheney is a lizard. ;)

Seriously, it was a really and truly irresponsible and poorly written series of "articles" that got everyone in an uproar.

I'm not interested in drama. I'm interested in facts. What happened. Why. Who is involved. What motivated the outburst. What else is happening. Is there something else going on. Is there an opportunity to solve a problem.

Also, what I always find revealing is how people let slip their personal bias and prejudices, because we all have them but some won't admit them; couching them in more acceptable terms.

But the greatest kick I get is that so many folks really and truly think that if you don't join the big OMG bandwagon, that it means one approves of what the guy did. That is the extent of the logic of the mob. Not thinking - just reacting on an emotional level.

Sorry - not into the whole mob thing - I prefer to try to see the whole picture, delve deeper and not base things purely on emotion. And I don't believe that an indicator of normalcy and acceptability is one's bank balance, cut of coat, or manicured lawn. But on this BB..... a lot of folks set great store by such things.

And if, by this post, you infer I believe it is ok to maliciously threaten another being with harm..... then you are part of the mob that isn't using the brains God gave him.

I find it VERY sad that this nonincident gets more press and headlines than real and existing cases of horrible abuse happening in the same state.

And as of Saturday, his civil cases have not settled. The federal one is still in litigation.

Makes you wonder what the real story is - because it is MUCH more complicated than the stupid reporters are telling you.

[ayrabz]

JSwan...if you want to delve deeper into the 'real story' of why this guy threatened to do what he did threaten to do... Please do so. Please post your opinion of why he is doing it, after you've found it out. Make it a new thread! Give us your 'Zoning laws get out of hand' thread. I'm sure (!) you'll get responses and support if its brought out that way.
The 'real story' of THIS thread IS what he said, what he did. Many of us "OMG" responders do NOT care 'why'. YOu seem to. Bully for you. I would listen to this man and give an ear if he had reacted in a reasonable way, and had been demonstrating a regard for his local laws in his reactions and his active work to dispute this situation REASONABLY and LEGALLY.
NO ONE brought this to the board, saying all zoning laws are non touchable. THIS was a headline, and this GUY wanted those headlines. He was a sicko in how he brought it all to the press. It was posted here because of that. This is a HORSE board. Not a zoning board. Good grief. We're not sheep. This was a hideous headline, and it had to do with threatening to destroy horses for publicity. THATS why it was here.
David Karresh and Jim Jones had issues with laws too. They chose a violent and cruel way of putting their point across as well, at the fate of others.

[BabyGreen]

Yes, well.....

[birdsong]

BWAAAAA OMG!!!

[ayrabz]

birdsong...remember!! 'OMG' is a bad thing! (this thread gives drinking the koolaid a whole new meaning) :D

[JSwan]

I did. He did it to make people freak out. You freaked out.

He didn't actually do anything. He still hasn't. Have any of you wondered how the horses are doing since his bail was revoked and he may not even be there to care for them? Or will you just say - well - he should have thought of that. Harumph! And feel smug.

I thought the solution to slaughter was to euthanize horses. That's a reasonable solution. His over the top threat isn't euthanasia - but the issue remains. Evidently he can't keep them. So - auction or kill them. Only two options - neither of which appears to satisfy anyone. Can't sell 'em, can't shoot 'em, can't eat 'em. An impasse.

Evidently, with the county, the issue is over. He lost. For whatever reason. (although no one really knows what the heck happened in the last 7 years)

But can he kill, surrender or sell the horses? Ownership is disputed. If the county zoning appeal process is over (is it?) there is still the federal case - which does involve the partnerships.

So it's over - but not over? The horses are owned by him? Not owned? Is there an alternative explanation? Alternative solution?

There is more to the story - but like others you seem to be more concerned about something that a stranger didn't do a week ago, and not in the least bit concerned about what DID happen to other horses in the state in the same time period.

And most of you are more concerned about living in an "aesthetically pleasing world".

Don't compare the jerk to people like Jim Jones. More over the top melodrama. Compare him to someone yelling, "you're going to pull the plug on Grandma" at a town hall meeting. Every bit as nutty and angry- but perhaps every bit as frustrated about...... what? Not knowing where to turn? Misdirected anger? True evil? Knowing the whole story puts things into context.

Fat Palomino and other CO residents posted real cases of abuse and none of you have bothered to be bothered by them.

I really and truly find it very telling.

And I also think it's very telling that few of you will even tolerate the slightest hint of disagreement, or expression of curiosity or desire to know more. Seems to be the same people over and over. :no:



JSwan...if you want to delve deeper into the 'real story' of why this guy threatened to do what he did threaten to do... Please do so. Please post your opinion of why he is doing it, after you've found it out.
The 'real story' of THIS thread IS what he said, what he did. Many of us "OMG" responders do NOT care 'why'. We're not sheep. This was a hideous headline, and it had to do with threatening to destroy horses for publicity. THATS why it was here.
David Karresh and Jim Jones had issues with laws too. They chose a violent and cruel way of putting their point across as well, at the fate of others.

[ayrabz]

umm, if he had said "I want to be the one to shoot Grandma" THAT would have comparison. THATS what he said. In print. In distributed FLYERS.
Don't say its melodrama created by those who read the story. It IS melodrama. He created it. He has a long list of criminal activity. (yes, I HAVE read/found/researched other stories) Again, you find the reasonable background for what he wanted to do and publicly promoted in his printed flyers. I'd be very interested. Bottom line is, the reason it was allowed to be printed here is because of what it had to do with HORSES. In HIS care.

[JSwan]

Yeah - I've read it all too. AND some of the litigation involving the partnerships - and if you think he's crazy you should see some of the people he's dealt with.

They've been in his care for years - and by all accounts have been tended to very well. What I am concerned about is that all of this is still not resolved - because the underlying disputes - you know - those pesky facts you're not interested in - have not been resolved. Ownership of the land, the trailers (and if you've seen photos they are completely unremarkable), and the horses.

So you should be worried about the horses - but not because that guy is going to knife them on the courthouse steps. Good googly moogly.

What you should be worried about is maybe something weird like a crooked business partner shipping them all off to Mexico. Or those horses being the subject of MORE litigation that might go on for years. Or maybe Animal Control seizing them and then what - auctioning them eventually? Do they have the resources to tend to that many animals for an unknown period of time? What about that rescue? And what if the only humane and reasonable thing to do is care for them in place, but the neighbors keep up their protest - what then?

Because of those pesky facts again - unresolved ownership, partnership interests, competing/conflicting claims..... or maybe nothing at all. You don't know.

[Nomoreusernames]

Sometimes it's more sensible to just shrug and walk away.

[JSwan]

Sometimes it's more sensible to just shrug and walk away.


Wow.

No wonder so many horses end up in the kill pens. :no:

[Nomoreusernames]

Shrug....walking away...

[tkhawk]

Reading through the minutes-albiet 7 yrs old- this is not a one person issue. Two crazy feuding sisters , one who sold her rights and the other refusing. At that time, judging by their estimates, it would have at least bought in 20-30 million dollars. Twenty to thirty million. That is not pocket change. The county probably wants this as much-can you imagine the tax base. Meanwhile apart from the renegade sister, you also have this guy and his mobile home and his stupid horses-yes stupid. Because to a developer and a county that looks like it wants to urbanize-horses just don't fit in-unless it is some kind of status symbol. My ex BO went through hell with county trying to do everything to run him out and that is not pretty. Unless you go up against people picking and combing through everything, you will never realize the frustration and anger of being absolutely right and yet being on the wrong side of the law.

He made a threat- a stupid , stupid threat. I made a threat once too,to my horse of unspeakable things-but it was in a fit of anger, a long time ago and I just got her. But my mare is one of those creatures who loves a fight and would rather go to the ends of hell with you, than give in-she quickly taught me patience!:winkgrin: Does this make me a monster? Crazy-considering I was talking to my horse!:lol: People say things in anger and rage -stupid things. I like to judge them by their actions. This guys horses are well cared for and he is happy. Come down to where I live and I will show you this sweet old lady who thinks she has this great spiritual connection with horses and thinks she talks to them and yet has them in stalls-some for years. Oh yes each one of them is a rescue. As far as she is concerned, she has saved them-she has. Some are ok in pasture, but the ones in stalls -are there for years. As far as she is concerned she is like an angel from heaven and she loves horses and all of them love her. You honestly think this guy posting a dumb flyer is worse than these types?? I wouldn't say this lady is bad, she is a nice lady, just misplaced intentions-but where do you think the horses will be happier?

[MHM]

So....

Is there any factual information on what's become of this guy's horses?

Not opinion, not theory, not conjecture, but, you know, facts?

[BabyGreen]

Sounds to me like this guy is squatting on land that belongs to somebody else.

And no way is dry farmland in the flats of northeastern Colorado worth $20-$30 million. It appears that all of the nutcases involved in this story live in a fantasy world. Doesn't mean they're not dangerous however.

Read about that crazy guy in California that kidnapped that little girl 19 years ago? Everybody thought he was odd, crazy, eccentric, had some strange religious views. Turns out he was a rapist, kidnapper, child molester, and possibly a mass-murderer.

[Plumcreek]

Now a Denver talk radio host, Peter Boyles who is pretty darn sharp, (he was married to an A Circuit rider lately) , is on this and has Katy Weatherbee, regional coordinator from the National Association of Horse Rescue live on his show right now. She is out there feeding horses. She says the owners are older ladies across the country. They will not reliquish the papers (or legal ownership, whichever is actually true) to rescuers, (as they probably paid a good amount for ownership). Katy says there are 9 mares and 11 unbroke stallions - Good Lord. She says all horses are in good shape but need hoof trimming.

Peter Boyles tentatively plans to do a remote broadcast out there this week. His show is on the air from 5 am to 9 am Mountain time. People are calling in with offers of hay as there is plenty here this year.

Listen live: http://www.khow.com/cc-common/ondemand/player.html?world=st
(This link starts with a commercial then goes live to whatever is being broadcast at the moment).

[Ambrey]

So 2.5 million dollars worth of horses are going to be put down because of a zoning rule?

Because Colorado is completely lacking in places to board horses?

[Nomoreusernames]

Thanks for the link, Plumcreek.

[JSwan]

Thanks, plumcreek. Can't seem to make the link work but I'll keep trying.

Maybe the rescue can help place the horses rather than the owner putting them down. The paper had gotten the name of the rescue wrong and I couldn't figure out who was out there helping.

I'd had calls in to Animal Control and the shelter but had not received a call back.

Hopefully the rescue can work something out.

ETA - uh oh. Yet another "layer" and more complications. Old ladies won't release ownership and they live in a different state. That's just peachy. Well..... something will have to give soon - either they sell/auction the horses, they're put down, or Animal Control is eventually going to have to seize them. I'd rather see a seizure than auction.

[Lori]

If he can't afford to build a hay shelter he has no right owning 26 horses - and breeding them non the less.

Is it really fair that as a neighbor of this man one has to look at his crappy old mobile homes that he uses as hay structures- some people want to live in an asthetically pleasing world. The way I see it - if you want to live in a shithole with rusted old trailers and crap all over the place, then don't live in an area that clearly dictates you can't do that. Why does everyone else have to suffer because he won't follow the rules.

.

My best and favorite hay sheds were aluminum shipping containers. Ugly, yes, but there was no mold, no dust and no rodents/vermin. I would get those again in a heartbeat.
As long as someone can care for and feed their animals, they have every right to own them no matter what they use as a feed shed.

[minnie]

I'm totally confused - from what I understand, this man doesn't own the land, doesn't own the horses - he's just the caretaker. How can they send HIM to jail for the zoning violation?!

[Plumcreek]

[QUOTE=Ambrey;4342371]So 2.5 million dollars worth of horses are going to be put down because of a zoning rule?
QUOTE]


How do 23 mostly unbroke horses come to be worth 2.5 million?

Because somewhere, at some time in the past, a very, very slightly similar bunch of horses were reportedly, third hand info , sold for somewhere around that amount, give or take 2.4 million or so.

[Ambrey]

How do 23 mostly unbroke horses come to be worth 2.5 million?

Because somewhere, at some time in the past, a very, very slightly similar bunch of horses were reportedly, third hand info , sold for somewhere around that amount, give or take 2.4 million or so.

Oh, sorry, I was told it was naive to think they weren't actually worth that much ;) Have we come to a group agreement now that we're dealing with a bunch of worthless unbroke arabs and a crazy bunch of hoarders? And not a farmer of high standing being run out of town by a bunch of mcmansion builders?

They have a great welcome waiting in New Hampshire if they need to get out.

[FatPalomino]

How do 23 mostly unbroke horses come to be worth 2.5 million?

Because somewhere, at some time in the past, a very, very slightly similar bunch of horses were reportedly, third hand info , sold for somewhere around that amount, give or take 2.4 million or so.

Didn't I hear somewhere that this guy swindled $9 million and the government and they only recovered $6M. That lives a $3 M difference.

I'm totally confused - from what I understand, this man doesn't own the land, doesn't own the horses - he's just the caretaker. How can they send HIM to jail for the zoning violation?!
http://www.coloradoan.com/article/20090831/UPDATES01/90831006/Weld+rancher+talks+after+threatening+to+publicly+e xecute+horses
"Shane Scofield, a spokesperson for the Weld County Sheriff's Office, says Parker's claim he has no responsibility for the property is not true.

"My understanding is that if you were to access the documents in reference to the civil case, you would be able to see that there's several different corporations mentioned in that paperwork, all of which are either owned by, I'm told, or managed by Mr. Parker himself," Scofield said.

Scofield says if Parker has a dispute over ownership of the property, it is an issue he will have to clear up with the court and the zoning department."

I missed this before but saw it this morning on my local newspaper:
"Scofield also says Parker is a convicted felon and cannot legally have a gun. Parker did not mention this to 9NEWS on Saturday, only saying he does not allow guns on the property and that is why he needed riflemen to help him execute the horses."

PS Colorado has some CHEAP boarding options- I've seen it for $100 or less a month on pasture. Some even come with hoof trimming ;)

[FatPalomino]

They have a great welcome waiting in New Hampshire if they need to get out.

We had a gal that neglected a bunch of equines move from Colo to NH not too long ago.
They arrested her in NH quicker than the did in Colo. She only lasted a few months there!

[Ambrey]

We had a gal that neglected a bunch of equines move from Colo to NH not too long ago.
They arrested her in NH quicker than the did in Colo. She only lasted a few months there!

LOL, that's what I was talking about- she also has a million zillion dollars worth of unbroke underfed arabs in trashy broken down corrals, and her husband seems to have a violent temper- I was thinking this guy would fit right in with their household!

[carol_okc]

According to the AHA Datasource, and to discussions this morning with Debbie Fuentes (staff liaison to the Registration Commission): the recorded ownership of the horses (possibly not every last one of them) is in the name of two entities, Pegasus USA and West World USA Inc. Parker is the ONLY person recognized by AHA as able to execute any registrations, transfers, etc relative to the horses registered under those two names.

West World USA Inc is a registered corporation in Colorado (# 19771158953) but Pegasus USA is not incorporated, at least not in Colorado. So as far as AHA is concerned, Parker has the ONLY authority to act as owner.

Recorded ownership is not the same thing as legal ownership. And in Colorado, any conveyance of legal ownership must be documented with a brand inspection. So if Parker, acting on behalf of either of these entities, sold the horses without registration transfers (or even if he turned the signed papers over to someone as part of a sale) there must be a record in the brand inspector's office of that conveyance. I'm trying to dig out this information, in conjunction with the deputy in the Sheriff's department with whom I'm working.

[MSP]

According to the AHA Datasource, and to discussions this morning with Debbie Fuentes (staff liaison to the Registration Commission): the recorded ownership of the horses (possibly not every last one of them) is in the name of two entities, Pegasus USA and West World USA Inc. Parker is the ONLY person recognized by AHA as able to execute any registrations, transfers, etc relative to the horses registered under those two names.

West World USA Inc is a registered corporation in Colorado (# 19771158953) but Pegasus USA is not incorporated, at least not in Colorado. So as far as AHA is concerned, Parker has the ONLY authority to act as owner.

Recorded ownership is not the same thing as legal ownership. And in Colorado, any conveyance of legal ownership must be documented with a brand inspection. So if Parker, acting on behalf of either of these entities, sold the horses without registration transfers (or even if he turned the signed papers over to someone as part of a sale) there must be a record in the brand inspector's office of that conveyance. I'm trying to dig out this information, in conjunction with the deputy in the Sheriff's department with whom I'm working.

Are you saying if your horses are not branded in CO you don't own them?

And since when is owner ship contingent on a breed registry?

Seems to me the Sheriffs department should be interested in ownership of the horses but not breed registry.

[BabyGreen]

I owned a horse in Arizona years ago. As I recall, in order to ship into or out of (or probably within) AZ, you needed a brand inspection, which doesn't mean you must have a brand (my horse was a Morgan and didn't have one). It just requires an inspector to come out and certify ownership of the horse. They give you an inspection report which you then show at border crossings or when you are asked to by law enforcement.

I believe the point of Carol's post was that this guy seems to have been hiding ownership of his "property" behind corporations, a common way for certail people to skirt the law.

[MSP]

Sorry its a bit strange sounding to me. Far as i know I have never lived anywhere I have had to have my horses inspected for ownership. I moved my horses from NH to MS and no Brand inspection was needed. Health certs, yes.

But again, I am free to write out a bill of sale and sell anyone of my horses with out notifying the breed registry so it doesn't really matter who's name the horses are registered with.

I have had a pony in my possession for over a year now and haven't gotten around to transferring her via the registry. Doesn't mean her previous owner still owns her! I have a bill of sale!

That is fairly pertinent since I am assuming the Sheriff is trying to determine the horse's ownership. So the registry can tell them who they had down as last owners but that doesn't tell them who currently owns them. ;)

[jetsmom]

I owned a horse in Arizona years ago. As I recall, in order to ship into or out of (or probably within) AZ, you needed a brand inspection, which doesn't mean you must have a brand (my horse was a Morgan and didn't have one). It just requires an inspector to come out and certify ownership of the horse. They give you an inspection report which you then show at border crossings or when you are asked to by law enforcement.

I believe the point of Carol's post was that this guy seems to have been hiding ownership of his "property" behind corporations, a common way for certail people to skirt the law.

Yeah, because if he admitted to owning another 2-3 million in property (horses/land), the gov't/courts would probably had taken it as part of the forfieture/restitution in the conviction on fraud charges. They were about 3 mil short.

He's still a scammer.

[carol_okc]

Thanks, BG...

No, I didn't equate recorded ownership with legal ownership - in fact I specifically indicated that they were NOT the same thing. But for the horses to retain their value as arabians (and these are actually some very decent quality horses with solid bloodlines) their registrations must be intact. I mentioned this in particular (and also that I am working with the sheriff's department) because of the effort to track down 'ownership'. I have established recorded ownership, but it will take the records of the brand inspector's office to hope to track down legal ownership (and the corresponding responsibilities), since Parker claims not to know who 'owns' the horses.

[BabyGreen]

Here is the job of brand inspection, from the Colorado Dept. of Agriculture

The Division of Brand Inspection's primary responsibility is to protect the livestock industry from loss by theft, illegal butchering, or straying of livestock.

The division is assigned five principal regulatory responsibilities:

Record and administer livestock brands
Inspect livestock and verify ownership before sale; transportation beyond 75 miles; transportation out of state; or slaughter
Inspect and license packing plants, livestock sale rings, and inspect all consignments before sale to verify ownership
License and inspect alternative livestock (elk and fallow deer) facilities
Prevent and return strayed or stolen livestock and to investigate reports of lost or stolen livestock
It probably goes back to the old West issue of stealing cattle and horses.

[Nomoreusernames]

And look at all the attention he has garnered.... "a NEW American Revolution" The "new" American revolution seems to be: the worse the behavior, the greater the gain.

[MHM]

Here is the job of brand inspection, from the Colorado Dept. of Agriculture


It probably goes back to the old West issue of stealing cattle and horses.

This came up on a thread a few months ago about paperwork needed for shipping horses across state lines.

I've shipped horses across literally every state line on the east coast, and nothing was needed to prove ownership. The only state line to check anything at all is Florida, and it just requires a health certificate and Coggins- nothing about ownership.

The guy claims he doesn't know who owns the horses? Really? Then who pays the bills on them?? :rolleyes:

[Huntertwo]

If he can't afford to build a hay shelter he has no right owning 26 horses - and breeding them non the less.

Is it really fair that as a neighbor of this man one has to look at his crappy old mobile homes that he uses as hay structures- some people want to live in an asthetically pleasing world. The way I see it - if you want to live in a shithole with rusted old trailers and crap all over the place, then don't live in an area that clearly dictates you can't do that. Why does everyone else have to suffer because he won't follow the rules.

Tyranny is also a bit on the extreme side. Repeat, he has shitty old eyesoars of trailers - the goverment is simply telling him to build a appropriate hay shelter. The old man is throwing a temper tantrum - something he has a habit of doing.

Exactly... Is this about zoning or "Blight laws"?

I'm not a snob, but I sure in #hit wouldn't want to look out my windows and see a ramshackled property full of mobile homes and crap all over the place also. And I do feel sorry for the neighbors that have to look at this and have their property values decline because of this.

It sounds like all he is being asked to do is clean up the property. Period.

[MSP]

Thanks, BG...

No, I didn't equate recorded ownership with legal ownership - in fact I specifically indicated that they were NOT the same thing. But for the horses to retain their value as arabians (and these are actually some very decent quality horses with solid bloodlines) their registrations must be intact. I mentioned this in particular (and also that I am working with the sheriff's department) because of the effort to track down 'ownership'. I have established recorded ownership, but it will take the records of the brand inspector's office to hope to track down legal ownership (and the corresponding responsibilities), since Parker claims not to know who 'owns' the horses.

And so why should the horses bloodlines be a concern of anyones in this case?

Of course you can't seize the horses until you know who owns them...

And they won't be worth much if you can't transfer their registrations!

[Ambrey]

And so why should the horses bloodlines be a concern of anyones in this case?


Because if they are marketable horses, he has zero excuse for continuing his threats to shoot them rather than backing down and admitting he is an idiot.

[BabyGreen]

This came up on a thread a few months ago about paperwork needed for shipping horses across state lines.

I've shipped horses across literally every state line on the east coast, and nothing was needed to prove ownership. The only state line to check anything at all is Florida, and it just requires a health certificate and Coggins- nothing about ownership.

The guy claims he doesn't know who owns the horses? Really? Then who pays the bills on them?? :rolleyes:

They inspect them in AZ. In both AZ and Ca there are agricultural inspection stations you MUST stop for.

[BabyGreen]

Exactly... Is this about zoning or "Blight laws"?

I'm not a snob, but I sure in #hit wouldn't want to look out my windows and see a ramshackled property full of mobile homes and crap all over the place also. And I do feel sorry for the neighbors that have to look at this and have their property values decline because of this.

It sounds like all he is being asked to do is clean up the property. Period.


The trailers are not for hay storage. They are part of his salvage business. He only said they were for hay storage to deflect from the real zoning issue. The documentation I read said he moved his business from another location out to this farm, where, evidently, one of the co-owners allowed him to.

[MSP]

Because if they are marketable horses, he has zero excuse for continuing his threats to shoot them rather than backing down and admitting he is an idiot.

You mean like Renazans Arabians?

This was never about the horses. :no: