Need advice-- trail psychosis (long)

[cnvh]

I have a 6-year old OTTB. Ordinarily an absolute sweetheart of a horse, tries his heart out, pretty brave, very laid-back, not a "test the limits" kind of guy. I ride English, have been doing some local schooling shows lately and we're going to our first starter trial in a few weeks. I have no aspirations for him other than as a fun "let's try everything" sort of horse; we're not definitely not destined for the A circuit! :)

Anyway, our barn sits on almost 300 acres, so we have lots and lots of trails. Depending on the company, this horse is the slowest, quietest, steadiest trail horse you can imagine-- he leads, he follows, goes out alone, doesn't spook at deer or scary trees, etc., etc. When we trail-ride, I usually ride him "on the buckle"-- he's just completely laid-back and slower than molasses in January.

EXCEPT when we're either out with a large group, or we go out to the hay fields. :(

He has certain spots in the fields and certain situations where he always gets a little stupid-- "stupid" for him consists of popping his head straight up, snorting/farting and scooting like he's going to take off. He's never actually RUN off more than a stride or two, and he's never dumped me by doing this, but it's annoying (and it tends to upset my less-than-confident trail buddy's horse who then acts in a similar fashion, which is no good).

Plan A: always trying to make sure I'm calm/cool as a cucumber, not getting tense so HE gets tense, etc. If/when he has blowups, I immediately put him in some trotting circles to burn off some energy. Afterwards he's generally keyed-up, but not "explosive."

Plan B: knowing where he tends to pull his stupid-ness, and trotting him BEFORE he has a chance to exlode. This seems to work better than Plan A, especially when just accompanied by timid trail buddy.

However, we went for a trail ride last night and he was the absolute worst he has EVER been. We were out in the fields (strike one) with a larger group of 5 riders (strike 2), some of which were on rather fiery horses (strike 3). Well this was simply too much for my normally-placid OTTB to handle. He was off-the-charts explosive for the last 2/3 of our ride. It was more rodeo than trail ride-- we had bucks, half-rears, and a few Lippizzaner-worthy airs above ground, a few of which almost got me off.

And we trotted. And we circled. And we trotted some more. I figured, if I could keep him moving forward, he'd have an outlet for the energy, right? Well apparently he was just bursting at the seams and the airs-above-ground continued even while trotting.

To compound the problem, some of the places he was going nuts weren't exactly conducive to trot circles-- think ruts, bad/rocky footing, etc., so I felt pretty limited in what I could do with him.

So... give me some suggestions of how to handle this, please. Up until this point I haven't "unleashed hell" on him for the bucking, because this horse isn't really a bull-headed type of guy; I half-suspect that THAT sort of correction will just make him more tense and explosive. (Although I'm certainly willing to give it a try...)

Really, just any advice for quieting down a normally-quiet but occasional trail hot-head...

[CanTango1]

I wish I could help you.... I will however be stalking this thread like your famous. Feel privledged :)


I seriously dont have an answer, Im dealing with the same thing ( amongst others ) Maybe he just doesnt like trail rides : Shrug:

[BuddyRoo]

I know you're going to hate me here...

But the difference is likely YOU. However subtly, I'm gonna guess that you're anticipating issues in one of two situations. Group or open field or both.

Of course the horses with the group can affect the "feel" of the ride for a horse. But a truly steady eddy is often just reading the rider and in spite of goofiness from other horses, is paying attention to the rider's vibe.

MANY people are nervous riding in wide open spaces. The fear of getting run away with, no natural barriers, etc....it does freak some people out.

My vote to test this theory would include beer or adult libation of choice and/or Xanax.

I think he is likely reading you and even if you THINK you're being cool as a cucumber, you're not. You might be tightening up/clamping down with your legs, taking more of a hold w/ the bit, being hypervigilant, etc.

To overcome this, I think you need to find your "zen on horseback" self and I find that mine is hidden at the bottom of beer #2.

[FlashGordon]

Ahh the scooting.... I will admit to knowing a few TBs who like to execute such moves.

In the ring it is easier to contain them with lateral work, transitions, etc. and for some that works just fine out on the trail, too. But I will be honest, out in the open or on the trail I don't cut them a ton of slack. If horsey starts to do the dolphin dives, or the scooting, I spin them right around. Sit deep, hand to the knee, and swing them around... then go forward! Once we are happily going forward quietly again, lots of good horsey pats and such.

You have to be QUICK and catch it immediately, and also you have to be careful and light with your hand. Use your seat and leg to drive them around primarily and the hand just to guide.

The trick is to disengage the maneuver fast so it cannot escalate.

So re-reading that it doesn't sound so pretty but alas it works. I'm not saying cowboy them around, you can execute it with a lot of finesse once you get good at it!

BR is right in that you have to stay totally calm and emotion-less! If you get upset and flustered things will go downhill quick...

[jnel]

I once rode with a woman whose horse did this. She wasn't up to the drama so when her horse started acting up she would turn and leave the group, walking back a different and longer way home. It was a safer choice for her as once her horse started acting up he escalated quickly to a dirty spin and bolt that would dump her.

[Donkey]

If you have a great group of friends I would repeat the same scenario everyday for a week and then jump on every opportunity to get him out there that comes up. Lunge before riding and then go out and make it the same low key gathering in the hay field every day. He should start to clue in that it's not big deal and dial down his antics. And as you are - keep him working and going forward.

Another option, sign up for a multiple day cross country clinic, preferably one where there are a couple other groups going at the same time as yours. Nothing like a "three ring circus" atmosphere to wear out and calm the nuttiest horses by the third day. And you have professional help on hand :)

[cnvh]

Oh, I totally agree that he's reading my cues no matter how I try to squelch them. :) And if someone could give me a foolproof way of curing THAT, well I think you'd be onto something worth a lot of money!

I try totally loose rein. I try singing songs. I try engaging in distracting conversations with my trail-riding buddies. I try concentrating on keeping every muscle in my body relaxed. But he IS a very sensitive TB, and I have yet to fully master my Zen, haha... (And I have zero alcohol tolerance or else I'd be willing to give THAT a try, too... but ONE beer and I'd be hard-pressed to even GET on, much less STAY on!)

I KNOW he's not going to be a perfect angel... I mean, for god's sake, he's only 6 and an OTTB at that. But I need to convey to him that while "happy/excited" is OK, bucking and airs-above-ground are not. :)

[Huntertwo]

My mare who is a great trail horse in every way acts the same way in open fields. I think it is just a woo-hoo moment for them.

I just put her into a good forward working trot and switch directions often, zig and zag. Circles just get her more worked up.

We always ride alone so I don't have the problem that you do, but perhaps your horse if feeding off the others?

Besides the fields, it sounds like you have a wonderful trail horse. :yes: Priceless.

[Lori B]

Does this horse need to have a little gallop and get his yayas out?

Do you have the ability to put a trainer on him for a trail ride and see if he's just as silly with a pro in company as he is with you?

Are the hay fields a big open space that says "run like an idiot all over me" to him?

I feel your pain, and am so going to watch this thread as well. Good luck.

[Dispatcher]

I'm wondering if this horse trained in fields sometimes. Some race trainers use the open field work for getting horses fit.

Or are the areas he acts up the areas where you let him canter before? Maybe he's expecting a good work at that area and is anticipating?

[katarine]

leg yield
shoulder in
sit deep
look where you are going
soft eyes
legs that trail to the ground
feel the mud between your toes
etc
etc
etc

As you consider thinking he's getting helium-filled...put him politely and properly to work, now, this second. Basically Sally Swift/Centered Riding + lateral and such bending/yielding maneuvers, and/or brilliant 10 meter circles- plain old straight line working trot means nothing to a fit horse who wants to go faster anyway-woohoo we're going faster, wonder if I can bucknfart, too, oh the JOY!!!!...whereas working trot + leg yield or proper as you can manage whilst mentally IN the arena=priceless. Gives you both a job and both something to think about. Ride the horse you want him to be and settle for nothing less. Don't let off the pressure until you feel him try to be a good boy, he gets a verbal good boy, there's a boy and back on with your trail ride.

Repeat OFTEN. You can't occasionally ride in a monster field and expect anything to change. Practice this so he learns monster-moves =working circles and leg yielding.

He'll get there. Maybe not in today's ride or the fifth ride but this is different than Flash's disengage the rear-end: I just want him to go back to work and being polite. Taking him off balance, depending on his temperment, may just crank him up more and set you up for snorting, irritated, battle. You have to decide which one he'll take to. My QH gets Flash's suggestion, essentially, a 'knock if off' - my TWH gelding gets politely, persistently, put to work.

[matryoshka]

For yourself, ignore the stimuli that usually set him off. It sounds weird, but it works. Picture it being a happy, relaxed ride even when it isn't. I ride for how I want to feel, not just how I do feel. It's a little like keeping a tempo in your head when looking for a particular trot, or seeing your distance between fences. It's got to be in your mind before it happens in your horse.

Handle spooks and scoots with aplomb and go right back to what you were doing before it happened. If you are going to use lateral work, do so before the planets align for the misbehavior that is bothering you. For example, before you get to the hay field, or upon entering it, and when you first sense him tensing up before he acts out.

I don't do lateral work or bending because it kills my bad hip. I ignore stuff, and it goes away.

Sit deep in the saddle without perching or arching your back. If you ride in a forward or hunt seat, your horse can't feel how calm you are. If you sit upright and deep, he's not going to throw you off balance easily, which means you will stay calmer if he catches you unawares.

My previous OTTB used to be fine when alone and a pill in groups. He was best when allowed to lead a group, but as soon as he'd catch sight of another horse in the distance, he'd throw a buck. If he spotted the horse before I did, he'd catch me unaware and throw me forward a bit. Starting out with a deep seat saved my neck quite a few times. The bucking was a PIA. I did not choose to "have it out with him" over the bucking. Sometimes I think group rides remind these guys of race day, and it is natural for them to get keyed up or feel excitement. And going from a trail to the open may remind them of the starting gate. If they loved to race, they'll be excited. If they didn't like to race they may feel anxious. Either way, it is your job to remind them they are no longer race horses, that they are retired and the proper way to behave is with manners and calm. Ride with that image in your head as much as possible. Practice it.

[Equibrit]

Surprise - he gets excited when in situations similar to a racetrack !

[cnvh]

I purposefully HAVEN'T taken him running out in the fields. Well I lie-- I went out ONCE with a trainer at the barn to do gallop sets (she's an eventer, I was bored so we went along, had never done gallop sets before). He was quite well-behaved for THAT, haha... But he was goofy out there before, and he's been goofy out there since.

Our ride started yesterday with some trotting and we popped over a few little XC jumps in a lower field-- dead-calm for all of that. Seriously, he was so lazy I wished I had spurs or a crop-- I had to really kick him to get even a pokey trot out of him. Continued trotting (very lazily I might add), got to the top of a big field, and KABOOM, it was on for the remainder of the ride.

I could longe him first, but I really can't convey how dead-quiet this horse usually is-- it's not like I'm pulling a fire-breathing dragon out of his stall or his pasture, saddling up and getting a rodeo every time. If we go straight to the arena to work, he's slow. If we go on the mountain trails, he's slow. But the fields seem to wig him out more and more, and the more riders there are out with us, the worse he gets.

(Oddly enough, at the XC jumps yesterday, he stood quietly while the other riders each took turns coming over the fences, and he was completely nonplussed with having horses come flying over the coops less than 10 feet from where we were standing. Go figure.)

The worst section for him is the dirt road headed from the fields back to the barn, which goes between two huge turnout pastures. The horses in the pastures don't even have to be running around; just being out there sets him off. Yet we can be working in the arena (which is also next to some pastures), and THOSE pasture horses can be rocketing around like banshees and he's fine. Looky, but fine.

Next time I go down to ride, I think I'm going to try one of two things (or both)-- I'm going to hand-walk him out there between the big pastures and see if he's sane while I'm just leading him. I also think I might ask the resident "cowboy" (who trail-rides with us all the time, and always rides the "lunatics" to quiet them down) to give my horse a go out there, see what impressions he gets out of him.

I'm sure a big part of this is me, not my horse. But the degree to which he's "plow-horse-quiet" everywhere else, but stark-raving madman in the fields, is just unbelievable.

[Hampton Bay]

For some horses, the forward trot just backfires. My big mare has to stand still for a while, while I tell her in a stern voice to get over herself. Every time she wanted to act like a moron, she had to stand still. She finally figured out that no good came from acting like a moron. Though I think the epsom salts in her breakfast helped that too.

But he may not be trail horse material. Some of them just don't enjoy it. Since TBs tend to be bred to run, it makes sense that their response to anything scary would be to take off rather than to stop and stare.

[Donkey]

Two things stand out to me in your last post

1. He's lazy when he wants to be
2. He's exuberant and energetic when he wants to be

Who's in charge of these rides?

Something to think about....

I bet a little sharpening up to your aids and keeping his attention on you (every step) will go a long way in helping you stay in control of the situation.

[twofatponies]

When I first got my Morgan mare I was so thrilled because I could ride her all around the woods and fields ALONE! OMG! And she just went wherever without a fuss. So one day some friends were going out and I said "me too!"

That's when I discovered that in a group her main thought was "I am boss, I go first, and if anyone looks at me funny I'm going to whip their a$$" I turned around and went home after about 1/4 mile, when she ran backwards towards my friend's gelding, preparing to double-barrel him.

Honestly I think she just had no idea what she was supposed to do, and I didn't really know how to tell her.

So then we made a plan. I went out with my husband into a big paddock two or three days a week and we practiced. We practiced standing in the middle while he rode around and vice versa. We practiced passing each other, following each other, and going opposite directions and side by side.

When I moved barns and there were more trail riders and a trainer with some great ideas we did large group exercises similar to drill team patterns and follow-the-leader at all different gaits. And when my trainer got a horse in to work with who had similar problems we went out on the trail together for two solid weeks and practiced galloping past each other.

Know what? It worked like a charm. Now I'm talking a few months to get decently under control, but over a year to get really solid and reliable - this weekend we hunter paced and we went in back of a group, steady as a rock, without sniping at passing team mates or trying to be first at all.

So consider this a schooling moment, and plan to school it over and over until it is just a non-event, boring, whatever, no problemo. If you can get some friends to come practice in the ring or in a large paddock you can set up scenarios to give both of you confidence and try out different ways of responding (or intervening).

[lcw579]

I think you are looking for trouble in certain areas at this point. He has acted up in these spots so now you are expecting it. You are sending him the clues whether you are aware of it or not. Sensitive beast that he is he is more than willing to fulfill your prophecy for you.

That being said, Donkey makes a good point that you are letting the horse decide how he is going to behave at each juncture of the ride. Whether you are on the buckle or not you need to be in control at all times. You also need to correct unacceptable behavior whether it is being too pokey or too hot. Getting a hot horse to calm down isn't as easy as getting a slow horse more forward and the technique used depends on the individual horse and his temperment. You have gotten some good suggestions here though, but only you can decide if one of them will work with your horse.

It is probably a good idea to have the "cowboy" take him out for a ride. It would be an even better idea if you went along on a steady Eddie to see how the pair did in your bad spots. That would could give you a good indication of just how much of his behavior is him and how much of it is you anticipating a problem. You also might get some good ideas watching the "cowboy" at work.

[Serigraph]

Well this may sound silly and someone will probably flame me for "rewarding", but I snap a carrot to get my TB's attention.

He used to be extremely nervous on trails when we first went out. His was a true fear though and not just acting naughty. He'd have severe meltdowns and open fields sent him through the roof.

I started bringing along carrots and would ask him to halt, pat-good boy, then snapped the carrot and he'd turn his head to get it. It works for him like a charm. I've diffused many close-to-meltdowns with the carrot diversion :)

For my TB, any type of trotting or "work" as in lateral work, would just get him hotter and more explosive....didn't work at all.

[cnvh]

I think you are looking for trouble in certain areas at this point. He has acted up in these spots so now you are expecting it. You are sending him the clues whether you are aware of it or not. Sensitive beast that he is he is more than willing to fulfill your prophecy for you.

That being said, Donkey makes a good point that you are letting the horse decide how he is going to behave at each juncture of the ride. Whether you are on the buckle or not you need to be in control at all times. You also need to correct unacceptable behavior whether it is being too pokey or too hot. Getting a hot horse to calm down isn't as easy as getting a slow horse more forward and the technique used depends on the individual horse and his temperment. You have gotten some good suggestions here though, but only you can decide if one of them will work with your horse.

It is probably a good idea to have the "cowboy" take him out for a ride. It would be an even better idea if you went along on a steady Eddie to see how the pair did in your bad spots. That would could give you a good indication of just how much of his behavior is him and how much of it is you anticipating a problem. You also might get some good ideas watching the "cowboy" at work.

Agreed.

Although I will say that I view our trail-ride time as "relaxing time," so when he's poking along with me "on the buckle," that's exactly what I DO want; I LIKE him nice and slow. It's not so unstructured that he's allowed to stop and eat every 10 seconds (he isn't and doesn't); it's not like every time we leave the ring he gets away with whatever he wants. I'm not THAT much of a pushover. :winkgrin:

Will have "Cowboy" take him out on Thursday, definitely with me coming along on someone else. Actually I think I'll take another semi-hothead and round up a small group to go along too, so the situation's the same. (Solo or with one other quiet horse, mine is usually OK, or at least better than last time!)

[lcw579]

I'll be interested to hear how the ride with the cowboy goes. And I agree that riding on the buckle is the nicest way to be out and about. I like a horse that will mosey along nice and relaxed and then be right there when I pick them up and ask them to work.

[2boys]

Holy crap! See my post from a few months ago re:"ottb being a complete tootie-fruitie when I brought him to a big field". I will be stalking this thread too...:sadsmile:

[mintano]

But he may not be trail horse material. Some of them just don't enjoy it. Since TBs tend to be bred to run, it makes sense that their response to anything scary would be to take off rather than to stop and stare.

Ironically I find ottb's make the best trail horses. After the stuff they see at the track wildlife is easy! ;P

[cnvh]

Ironically I find ottb's make the best trail horses. After the stuff they see at the track wildlife is easy! ;P

SO true. :) There's very little my horse is actually SCARED of. I hang things off his ears, walk him over tarps and bridges that the WP horses won't go near, and we've flushed deer and game birds out in the woods without so much as a flinch. (And no, we don't practice Parelli:eek:)

He's not scared-spooky, that's for sure.

[Donkey]

Always keep in mind that anything riding related that looks easy and enjoyable almost always has a whole lot of schooling behind it.

This goes for on the buckle trail riding too - on the buckle sane and safe hacking horses usually have a lot of miles behind them. Enjoy your buckle moments but keep schooling the difficult parts. Sounds like your OTTB has a great mind and that you are on the right track. Desensitisation through repeated exposure and rewarding good behaviour blah blah, lather, rinse, repeat. When you get there you're going to have a blast.

Good luck!

[2boys]

He's not scared-spooky, that's for sure.

This is so true. Mine was a star at a public park--with ultimate frisbee games, bikes, baby carriages, etc. He just gets strong and "up".

[matryoshka]

Let's qualify that. Keep your horse on his hindquarters. If he's got great self carriage and doesn't get on the forehand, the buckle is fine.

Horses lean on the bit to run, meaning they are on the forehand.

Keep him on his hindquarters (again, sitting up helps), and you'll reduce his ability to fall into a run. It works. You can use the buckle as a reward for relaxed behavior. Otherwise, keep him off his forehand.

It will also help establish that you are riding him, rather than him taking you for a ride.

[Beverley]

The horse is performing exactly to your expectations. You need to change your expectations. And that does include tough love. When my OTTB performed shenanigans, he didn't get catered to. One rein or the other went behind the relevant knee, and he just spun in place until he didn't want to anymore, and then got booted through a few extra turns for good measure. He soon learned that, as they say, the right thing is easier than the wrong thing. After that- sure, foxhunting with thirty or forty others, he might jig a bit, even canter in place a bit, but could be held in a plain snaffle with a light touch and darn well knew better than to leap or buck, he still wanted to be Secretariat but he knew what was expected, and did it.

[cnvh]

One thing I'm glad of is that he's never tried to really TAKE OFF-- his antics have been contained to scoots of a couple strides, and then the subsequent in-place drama, the bucking "dolphin" thing as someone else so accurately described it. He's actually pretty easy to keep in, no runaway freight train experiences (yet anyway, lol)...

[EqTrainer]

I suspect that your horse is never really in front of your leg.

Some horses you will be able to trail ride on the buckle anywhere, anytime and they will always be the same. Others, you are going to have to ride, all the time. You have probably landed the latter and not the former.

So you can't really have it both ways with that type of horse. You have to ride him the entire time and stop having these extremes in behaviour - YOU need to be in control of what is happening all the time, not just when you don't like what is happening.

There is a reason good trail horses are worth $$.

[Marengo]

I think its asking a lot of an OTTB to just happily trot with a group of other horses in an open field without some trail 'training'. You're setting both of you up for failure by repeating this scenario again and again. I would back off and break it down into baby steps. It would be great if you could work with either a coach or even an experienced rider, someone who won't anticipate him. Ride him first in a ring, even if he's calm and lazy. Get his attention, get him moving off your leg listening to you. Then trail him on his own through the problem areas. Hopefully he will be good and you will have a base to start from. Repeat this a number of times then pair up with another rider, hopefully on a quiet horse. Continue this for a few weeks then introduce a third rider. Probably you get the idea to keep increasing the number of horses you trail with. If he has a blow up take it back 2 steps. I know it sounds simple but try to have positive riders and avoid the scenario where he blows up. Its not about you being afraid or not taking control its about showing him what to do not what not to do. You should expect to have to ride him through some issues but if he's repeating behaviour in certain spots it could escalate as it becomes a habit. Take it slow with him, he's a 6 yr old OTTB don't expect him to be a horse you can just go group trail riding with at this point. You'll get there but you have to break it down into baby steps.

[paintball]

I second the idea that he's probably not really being quiet, just lazy. I see a lot of horses that are described as quiet, but are really just non-responsive and a bit dull until they're....not. Which it sounds like is what you're dealing with.
I would work hard on making him do stuff he doesn't want to do away from the 'scary' areas - if he wants to laze along, make him pick up the pace a little. If he wants to go a bit more forward, he has to wait and be patient. Even little stuff like ensuring that he stands for mounting, and moves off immediately when requested, will help re-inforce the idea that he needs to do what you want, when you want, rather than you going along with what he likes doing at the time.

[cnvh]

I suspect that your horse is never really in front of your leg.

Some horses you will be able to trail ride on the buckle anywhere, anytime and they will always be the same. Others, you are going to have to ride, all the time. You have probably landed the latter and not the former.

So you can't really have it both ways with that type of horse. You have to ride him the entire time and stop having these extremes in behaviour - YOU need to be in control of what is happening all the time, not just when you don't like what is happening.

There is a reason good trail horses are worth $$.

I guess I'm a little confused by this... when he's going along quietly without me having to fuss with him (which is what I want, and what he does much of the time), are you suggesting that I need to be riding even THOSE moments like we're practicing our dressage tests or something? Not sure I agree with that... I guess I'm just not of the philosophy that every moment my horse is RIDDEN, he necessarily has to be WORKING. Our trail-ride time is our chill-out time; I don't see the point in winding him up when he's mellow-- seems to defeat the purpose of rewarding good behavior.

[katarine]

I guess I'm a little confused by this... when he's going along quietly without me having to fuss with him (which is what I want, and what he does much of the time), are you suggesting that I need to be riding even THOSE moments like we're practicing our dressage tests or something? Not sure I agree with that... I guess I'm just not of the philosophy that every moment my horse is RIDDEN, he necessarily has to be WORKING. Our trail-ride time is our chill-out time; I don't see the point in winding him up when he's mellow-- seems to defeat the purpose of rewarding good behavior.

Yes. Because mellow is actually more like bored and lazy. And his acting out is a big screw-you, behaviorally.

Imprecise riders ride imprecise horses. They 'wish' they were better, but won't do anything substantive about it. Oh he's so sweet and quiet at home, I don't know what got into him! I do! Too much stimulus around him and no one in charge. He should be snappy and honest and now- BOTH in the ring and outside. Allowing him 'down time' on the trail, when he's blowy and popping around and goofy- my god he'd get his ass put to work at my house- when he's earned the right to go 'on the buckle' he'll get it- until then, he'll be asked to snap out of it. Don't want to work on trail and field manners? Don't go in the field or on a trail ride :)

[EqTrainer]

I guess I'm a little confused by this... when he's going along quietly without me having to fuss with him (which is what I want, and what he does much of the time), are you suggesting that I need to be riding even THOSE moments like we're practicing our dressage tests or something? Not sure I agree with that... I guess I'm just not of the philosophy that every moment my horse is RIDDEN, he necessarily has to be WORKING. Our trail-ride time is our chill-out time; I don't see the point in winding him up when he's mellow-- seems to defeat the purpose of rewarding good behavior.


It's not confusing at all. Your horse clearly - of your own admission - doesn't think that when you are on his back, you call the shots.

First you tell us that he is numb quiet at one point and you wish you had a crop and spurs because you can barely get him going. Then you tell us that after that he gets wild. In the first scenario, just because he was quiet which made you feel safe it doesn't mean that he was listening to you - so why you are surprised when he does a 180 mental change I have no idea - he wasn't with you in the first place!

Go and whoa are 100% linked together. The horse who doesn't go when you tell him to, doesn't whoa when you tell him to. Also, your horse never read the book that says that trail riding is his relaxing time. Somewhere down the road he may get that. But of your own admission, he doesn't get it NOW. Not sure what is confusing about that?

You cannot agree with it, that's cool.. you may wish you had when you are laying on the ground. I ride all my horses out and they *earn* the trust of being on the buckle over time. If they are having explosions, I am not waiting around for it to happen again, I am riding proactively to make sure they STOP doing it and learn not to. Every time this happens you are training your horse to do it. Another confusing idea, I know.. but really, every time you ride a horse you are teaching them something. Even when you think you are just trail riding, and having "down time".

[Chief2]

There's a lot of good advice in the above posts, but I think Equibrit nailed it. You are dealing with history here, and some telegraphing.

There was a study done, fairly recently, of some pairs of horses and handlers. Each handler was told to walk their horse down a walkway 4 times, and that on the fourth trip, an umbrella would be opened. Each horse and handler was fitted with a heart monitor, and the study began. The first three trips were uneventful, and the heart rates remained steady, but on the fourth trip, both the handler's AND the horse's heart rates sped up, BUT the umbrella was never opened. Horses, being sensitive herd animals, pick up telegraphing from us very quickly, so if you are nervous that he is going to be a snot even before you tack him up, he'll be picking it up before the two of you ever leave the barn. Add in the group of horses (going to the track for whatever reason) the dirt road (going out for a breeze), add in the super high internal energy of anticipating the cue to GO!, a rider now fighting to hold him back when before he was off and flying, and a herd of hooligans egging him on to show off in front of as a way to burn it off, and you have the trail ride from hell.

You can't magically change the tapes that have already been laid down, but you CAN write some new ones. We bought a hot horse that ran and ran on hack-lines for years. Everything on the trail was an opportunity for a grand and glorious spook, marked but rearing, flying backwards, and blasting off. That horse was brought down to a walk for one solid year whenever he was ridden on any trail, solo or in a group, until he learned to listen to his rider and not usurp his rider in controlling the ride. The first couple of weeks were a battle royale keeping him from winding himself up, but over time he began to settle down and listen to what his rider wanted, not to what past history was dictating. The more he listened, the better things got, and they could work on different things while riding, all while still at the walk. After that time period was up, trotting and cantering could be easily added in. Once he could reliably trot and canter with the group without becoming hot, then we went to holding him back while the rest of the group went on, first by putting him to work by himself for at first a few seconds or so, and then for longer periods of time, and then rejoining the group each time. Really, we went from having a hot, out of control horse to a great trail horse, both solo and in large groups.

I would start with one really, really good friend, with a good trail horse, who likes to walk, and is willing to trail ride with you time and time again, so your horse can learn how to reliably trail ride in the company of another horse. He is going to have to learn from both you and from that other horse how to behave now that there are new expectations out there. Once that becomes more and more reliable, then I would add in another horse or two, and that would be it for a while. I would save the large group rides for next year, and concentrate on over-writing the tapes that got him to this point, so that he is listening to you and not to his historically (now inaccurate) tapes on how to behave in the great outdoors.

Just my two cents. Good luck with your horse. :)

[cnvh]

It's not confusing at all. Your horse clearly - of your own admission - doesn't think that when you are on his back, you call the shots.

...

First you tell us that he is numb quiet at one point and you wish you had a crop and spurs because you can barely get him going. Then you tell us that after that he gets wild. In the first scenario, just because he was quiet which made you feel safe it doesn't mean that he was listening to you - so why you are surprised when he does a 180 mental change I have no idea - he wasn't with you in the first place!

...

You cannot agree with it, that's cool.. you may wish you had when you are laying on the ground.

Good lord, let's not go the "any way but MY way is going to get you killed" route, shall we?

There's no need to paint a picture of this horse as a bullheaded "I'm running my own program" kind of animal; I assure you he is not. It's easy to make those assumptions based on a few paragraphs a complete stranger has written on a horse you've never seen/ridden, but 95% of the time he "listens" quite well.

There are two basic kinds of horses out there-- those that generally want to do what's expected of them (they may not understand what you're ASKING, but their intentions are good), and there are those that are constantly trying to test and scheme and run their own agenda (like most ponies, haha). I've owned and/or ridden my share of both, and I feel pretty safe in saying current Horsie is definitely in Category #1... so to say that he thinks he's "always calling the shots" is so far from accurate as to be laughable for anyone who knows this particular horse. He's just not that kind of guy.

I've gotten some really good suggestions from many of you, quite a few pf which I can't wait to try. First is going to be having "Cowboy" ride him out there tomorrow (with me in tow) so I can get a look at what he's doing and get some feedback from a different butt on him. :) I'll post the results afterwards. Thanks again!

[tkhawk]

My girl is an ex race Arab. I have ridden very few TBs so don't know them much. But at least my kind, if they are hot and bothered, not a good time to amp up the pressure. They can easily morph from a hot horse to a fire breathing dragon and if you at some point loose your temper, it is the kiss of death! Don't ask me how I know!:lol:

There are still some moments when my horse's instincts takes over , for whatever reason, be it a weird looking flower or whatever. That is not the time to escalate-rather time to amp the pressure down. Each horse is different. What works for me is to actually loosen the reins , sit deep, use my legs and be calm and take charge. As in hey that may look scary and I didn't notice it-thanks for noticing, but I notice it now and I am saying that is not scary, we are ok, come back to me. I have tried the other method of making them work harder-it just doesn't seem to work with Arabs-just seems to make them hotter and more volatile.

Funny thing is , when I am riding alone, I rarely have spooks. I pay attention, and can catch it and correct before. But in groups, I love to chat-but I also know my horse. Even if she spooks, as long as I am "there" and bring her back and am ok -she is fine. But too much work , trots and circles and spins just amps the temperature up and what could be back to normal in two seconds now may take minutes and you now have a hot and fiery horse on your hands instead of one that just spooked, got over it and is back to normal. But I guess it depends on the horse. But you have to know yourself and your horse-both your limits-at a certain point, just like a horse, you loose it too and then stop thinking and are simply working from an instinctual place-been there, done that and don't wan't to go there again. That space is usually where a lot of trouble happens. Nobody is in charge-neither you or the horse. I do know a few trail horses who are solid and seem to be more emotionally stable than their riders-but very few..

But baby steps , until both of you are comfortable.

[mp]

I guess I'm a little confused by this... when he's going along quietly without me having to fuss with him (which is what I want, and what he does much of the time), are you suggesting that I need to be riding even THOSE moments like we're practicing our dressage tests or something?

Not like a dressage test, but ride in such a way that you're aware of the little signals that your horse is about to start behaving badly. So you can do something before he gets out of hand. He may be sensing you're getting tense and acting out because of that. Or he may get upset because you're not focused on him and he's knows it. Hard to say. You don't really need to figure out why he's getting upset/misbehaving. It's what you're doing (or not) that makes it possible for him to be an idiot that 5% of the time he chooses to be.

Good luck. And please do report back. These discussions are always interesting.

PS -- I think they are way more than two basic kinds of horses. ;)

[Serigraph]

PS -- I think they are way more than two basic kinds of horses.
Totally agree with this statement and I was thinking the same thing. That'd be like saying there are two kinds of people in the world..Person A and Person B - I think not.

Every horse is an individual and IMO no cut and dry tactic is going to work the same for each horse. Just have to use what works for that individual horse.

OP - let us know how it goes!

[mp]

That'd be like saying there are two kinds of people in the world..Person A and Person B - I think not.


Well, there really are two kinds of people in the world: Those who believe there are two kinds of people and those who don't.

Sorry, couldn't resist. :winkgrin:

[Huntertwo]

I guess I'm a little confused by this... when he's going along quietly without me having to fuss with him (which is what I want, and what he does much of the time), are you suggesting that I need to be riding even THOSE moments like we're practicing our dressage tests or something? Not sure I agree with that... I guess I'm just not of the philosophy that every moment my horse is RIDDEN, he necessarily has to be WORKING. Our trail-ride time is our chill-out time; I don't see the point in winding him up when he's mellow-- seems to defeat the purpose of rewarding good behavior.

I agree with you. And I think this discussion is getting way over analyzed.

I don't get how people are relating mellow = lazy and bored.

cnvh, your horse sounds like a wonderful trail horse in every way except in the open field. I would keep riding him on the buckle on the trail if he is going the way you like, which seems to be the case.

I've been trail riding most of my life and have a great trail pony for the past 5 years. I ride western, so I ride her on the trails on a draped rein.
She certainly isn't bored or lazy... She is trained.
I don't want a trail horse that I have to constantly *ride*. Again, I don't know why people are associating the two.

As I posted previously, she does the same thing in an open field. Not as bad as your guy, but does want to go! I just put her into a forward working trot and into different directions. I don't think she is saying "Screw her". She is a horse and not perfect.

[Holly Jeanne]

I used to ride an OTTB who was the same way. I found that if I took him out for a good gallop once a week he was generally fine the rest of the time. The only exception was when we went for a gallop with his OTTB buddy. He got a bit competitive with him. :lol:

[katarine]

It's easy to make those assumptions based on a few paragraphs a complete stranger has written on a horse you've never seen/ridden,

So, OP, here's my question to you: if it's easy for the reader to misunderstand the scope/breadth of the situation, and maybe respond 'wrong' then couldn't it also be said it's easy for you to misunderstand the scope/breadth of the proposed solutions, and respond 'wrong'? So...just maybe chew on all of it, take what you can use and just nod at the rest. It's not hurting anything, and doesn't even have to be responded to. Just say hey, good ideas guys, thanks for your time. And go apply what you can see would be worth trying.

[cnvh]

I probably should have rephrased my original question to something more along the lines of, "how did you calm down your own horse when he has psycho trail moments?" :) Sorry if I got snarky earlier-- protective mommy mode kicks in and god forbid someone would imply that my horse was a beligerent monster that I've been allowing to walk all over me, haha... (I'm working on that whole "accepting criticism" thing, really I am!)

Can't wait for the "Cowboy ride" tomorrow. He's a good friend and has known my horse for as long as I have, although he's only ridden him twice (never on the trail). If I know my friend, my horse is going to be quiet as a church mouse for him... and then I'm going to have to sign up for some yoga classes or meditation classes or something so I can fix MY OWN head, which is most likely the root of the problem. :)

[paintball]

I don't get how people are relating mellow = lazy and bored.

I've been trail riding most of my life and have a great trail pony for the past 5 years. I ride western, so I ride her on the trails on a draped rein.
She certainly isn't bored or lazy... She is trained.


I think you just answered your own question. Your pony is great to ride because she's trained. The OP's horse is happy to be quiet and sedate most of the time, but when he decides to be a loon, there's not much she's currently able to do about it, and that's the problem. So he's not truly quiet, he's just happy to cruise until he gets fired up.
There's nothing wrong with a horse getting excited on trails, but they have to still be paying attention and you usually need to have some good training to ensure that an excited horse is still listening to you. This seems to be the OPs problem - when he fires up she has no 'buttons' to do anything about it.

[Simbalism]

cnvh, I don't have an OTTB, but do have a chestnut TB mare. Her original training/life was as a show hunter. For various reasons, we got out of showing. I really like my mare, but she had often been spooky in the ring. I had some residual fear after a bad fall with multiple injuries(a different horse). I wanted to do some trail riding and had joined a riding club that did some group rides. Due to my fears, I first took my mare out for trail walks. I would have her completely tacked. I would take some treats, a beverage, maybe even a lunch. We would hike out on the trails. If something along the trail bothered her, that was where we would have a snack break. I kept everything as low key as possible, trying to keep myself and her from getting more nervous. I did this several times and then one day she was being pretty calm, so I climbed on and rode for awhile. If we came to something that made her nervous, I would get off. This calmed my fears and then she would calm down also.
Eventually, I started taking my horse to club rides. Along the trail if she started acting nervous and not paying attention to me, I would get off. I would let the other horses go on. I may walk the opposite direction for awhile, sometimes adding trail exercises like stepping over a log or backing up between trees or crossing a little ditch. This really helped in two ways. My mare became totally detached from what the other horses were doing and became more focused on me.I also did lots of "bombproofing" exercises with her. When I first started riding more in open fields, I would stay along the fence or tree line. It seemed to add a visual barrier, and sort of helped to keep her calm. Now as a big girl that has been doing lots of trail riding for the past 4-5 years she is the horse that everyone wants to ride their "greenies" with. I find sometimes with TB's pushing them thru stuff often makes it escalate. I kind of think of it as changing the channel, instead of watching something you don't like. If you don't like the behavior you're getting, try something totally different. Love the poster who snapped carrots. My mare loves peppermint paper crinkles...hehe. Good luck with your horse.

[lcw579]

Well, how did it go with the cowboy yesterday?

[matryoshka]

I'm curious too. cnvh--don't leave us hanging!!

[cnvh]

I'm curious too. cnvh--don't leave us hanging!!

Cowboy couldn't make it!! :( His wife had a bad fall this week and apparently injured her back, so presumably he was home being the good husband. :)

I did hand-walk Horsie up to the section where he was most wiggy-- in between the two big pastures along the road to the fields. He started dancing on the end of the lead rope (when the pasture horses came running), so we worked on that a bit. Afterwards we just did some ring work-- we have our first starter trial coming up in 2 weeks and we have yet to do our dressage test, so we worked on that. Had some breakthroughs with bending to the right (he's very stiff in all things right), so we ended on a good note and didn't go back out to the fields by ourselves.

Cowboy is usually out on Monday nights, so hopefully we can trade horses that evening. As soon as he has a ride, I promise to post an update!

[matryoshka]

That was good thinking. I've gotten off and handwalked before we get to areas where a horse gives me trouble. A couple of sessions hand walking and it is no longer a "trouble" spot.

When my energetic OTTB would balk at wooden bridges, I'd get off as soon as it became apparent he was going to balk and before it became a fight. I'd lead him over and mount back up. It didn't take long before he'd walk right across with me on him. That really went against the grain of my riding companion who thinks horses need to be schooled repeatedly over any obstacle they look hard at, but I knew my guy's temperament and decided not to make an issue when he felt uneasy. Funny thing, my horse was trotting across those bridges before her horse would, and he often had to lead over obstacles. I figure her horses started thinking "Oh no! A bridge/tunnel/grate! How many times am I going to have to cross that dang thing today?"

At first I had to lead him through streams, too. Every time we came across a wider or noisy one, he'd wig out. The last time I had to lead him through water was a very wide stream and the water was up to my knees. I led him partway through and got back on. It is NOT fun to mount a 16hh horse in knee deep water, in December. My water proof boots held the water in nicely for the rest of the ride, and my feet made squishing noises every time I'd post. But after that, my horse never balked at water again (liked to paw and splash everybody nearby). Had we faced a river, I might have had to swim across. :lol:

Basically, it sounds like your horse is honest, and when he's jittery, you've got to find the reason and solve the problem. If the problem is you, it gets tougher to solve. If the problem is that he's thinking there are lions crouching in the grass or crocodiles in a stream, that is IMO easier to deal with. Handwalking can help with both, since as he gets calmer/more used to it, so will you.

[halla]

I ride a TB, and he occasionally does things that could be described similarly. He's not off the track, and has only been doing trails for about two years his owner and I think (since she bought him).

He's adapted quite well, and is generally a thinker - he examines things before he decides if they are scary or not. Generally, he doesn't think they are, which is great. When we get stuck, he thinks about the situation and tries my ideas and his ideas, which is also useful. The downside of the independent thinking is the large number of opinions he has about everything. Generally his opinion about speed is that we should be going faster, and ideally jumping things. Walking is boring to him, though, so he's slow and unresponsive, and wants to go home. In his mind, fields are definitely for galloping, and company is fun and even more fun when they are also galloping, but they are not supposed to be in front. And he didn't even race.

There are some days when he just needs to get a gallop out, and then he's fine. If there is too much walking, especially walking with other horses, we get closer to one of those days. Really a lot of walking with other horses can get him pretty grumpy just by itself. If we are walking with other horses and another group goes past faster, there is major grumpiness. So he gets his runs, but only on our terms, and I think that's maybe what people are trying to get at. I know, completely and 100%, that if I tell him to stop, we will stop. And while he anticipates galloping at the places we usually do, he listens when I tell him no. We can be standing and other horses can gallop past - I know he hates it, but he stands with a little encouragement.

I don't know how he got here, though. When his owner bought him and I started riding, he was obviously very well trained, and we gradually got him used to trails, but that's all I know. He's gotten better about how well he accepts "no we aren't running now", but I don't know how much of that is general good nature, training we had nothing to do with, learning we wouldn't let that happen, or having enough other outlets (as we trusted him more over time) that he wasn't so inclined to explode.

[matryoshka]

Halla, he sounds like a fun horse to ride. You two must be well matched.

[cnvh]

Now I'm beginning to think that maybe it's not me, and maybe it's not all fields-- maybe it's just THOSE PARTICULAR fields that vex him so.

Yesterday we went down to Frying Pan Park for a XC school-- actually one of the trainers at my barn brought 3 students down and Horsie and I tagged along to school on our own. We've been there once before, so it wasn't completely unfamiliar to either of us, but it's a lot of big open field-y spaces, and lots of other horses running all around. I know I was a little nervous (last time we were there I had a pretty nasty fall), and all the stars were aligned for Horsie to be a butt-- unfamiliar place, big open spaces, other galloping horses, nervous rider, breezy day, etc., etc.

Wouldn't you know it, he was a gem. He was looky of course, but we only had two VERY minor snort-&-scoots which I promptly corrected with a couple rein-to-the-knee circles. (And neither incident took place out in the fields, incidentally.) But I purposely set him up in situations where I figured he'd TRY to get stupid-- standing while riders cantered past us, riding far away from the group, jumping away from the group, riding quietly BACK to the group, etc., etc. All fine, NO problems whatsoever. He got a little forward when we tagged along behind the group on a run over a series of fences, but he came back when I asked.

And for the record-- he jumped every single thing I pointed him at, we didn't have one single scary-spook at ANYTHING, even the tractor-drawn wagon full of park visitors which passed us on the trail. We even stopped right next to it for pets and scratches from a gaggle of kiddos. I was SOOOO proud of him yesterday!!

So if he can behave like that away from home with an admittedly-nervy rider aboard, then I'm really starting to think that he's getting (gotten?) some kind of association with OUR fields at home as being a good place to go crazy.