Selling investment arabian [Archive]

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farmgirl

Aug. 24, 2009, 04:59 PM

greysandbays

Aug. 24, 2009, 08:44 PM

Is there such a thing as an "investment" Arabian anymore?

ESG

Aug. 24, 2009, 08:54 PM

Took the words right out of my mouth, g&b. :D

farmgirl, I would check with the IAHA and see what trainers are listed for your area, and start from there. Good luck.

fernie fox

Aug. 24, 2009, 09:03 PM

I think David Boggs is in your area;):eek:

ESG

Aug. 24, 2009, 09:17 PM

fernie, that was rude. farmgirl doesn't know about the Boggs boys, and might take you seriously. Don't say stuff like that. :eek:

twofatponies

Aug. 24, 2009, 09:24 PM

IdahoRider

Aug. 24, 2009, 09:45 PM

The Arabian Horse Association has a forum on their website (listed under "membership" on the home page, I think). I believe that ablackhorse.com went to a "pay for posting privileges" system a year or two ago, so if someone would want to post to the forum they would have to purchase a yearly membership first. I think awhitehorse.com still has an active Arab forum.
Sheilah

lil'redbarn

Aug. 24, 2009, 09:48 PM

You have to pay to post on A Black Horse and they can be a little, umm, direct. :uhoh:

There is actually a forum area on the Arabian Horse Association site that is open to anyone, you don't have to be an AHA member to post. You can also try Arabian Breeders Network, some good folks there.

What is this guy like? Breeding? What aspects of him do you think makes him EP/Park potential? (not snarky, just noisy - Arabians are my 'drug' of choice :winkgrin:)

lil'redbarn

Aug. 24, 2009, 09:49 PM

IdahoRider types faster than I do...

copper1

Aug. 25, 2009, 07:07 AM

Arabian Breeders Network-far more peaceful than ABH!

findeight

Aug. 25, 2009, 07:50 AM

A young, unshown gelding is not and never will be an "investment" horse, It's debatable if any of them of any type or sex deserve to be linked with the term "investment".

Unfortunatly, there are a ton of Arabian geldings that have not shown out there and it will, frankly, be hard to sell this one. Period. Let alone at an "investment" price.

The reputable barns that specialize in Arab sales will not take him with no show mileage on just the owners assurance he has "Park potential" unless he is dirt cheap, absolutely spectacularly bred, like the parents both Park Horse Champions or the owner wants to pay to get some show mileage on him. They got experienced show horses they can't sell, they can't take another unknown gelding that has never shown-unless the owner is willing to foot the board, vet, farrier and some training bills to get him saleable.

Had a friend sell a Regional Champion Gelding several years running with halter points and tri colors, wins at Scottsdale and other major venues in California/ Won the Worlds (or whatever they call it) in the youth Trail Horse 3 weeks after selling and the Open Trail the next year (last year, I believe). UNDER 20K. They sold another one that was a Champion in Western Pleasure, Trail, Reining (top ten at world show) and Halter as a youngster for about 10k (he was "old"). Just to give you a price point for geldings. yeah, Park is pricier IF they have the mileage.

People who want Arabian Park Horses usually buy stallions anyway and buy from established Park Horse trainers. Bad habit that particular breed attracts...but that's the way it is.

What I would do instead of the whole Park Horse slant is just market this privately as a nice mannered, well broke horse at suitable price.

But I fear this owner has too many zeros floating around in his head as far as where he wants to price this one...and he is cruising for a bruising in this market-or, really-in almost any market with an untried Arabian gelding.

One other thing, we have some good midwest Arab barns but the BIG money is on the west coast and in Arizona. Ship him there to a BNT and put the money into him and he might get the big bucks. Around here with no Park training, not gonna happen.

Aug. 25, 2009, 12:13 PM

The "midwest" is a very big place.

These guys are in Kansas City and Springfield, and they're at the top of Arabian English pleasure, having won innumerable national championships. I've never had a horse with them, but some friends have and I've been stalled next to them at shows. They're good folks.

http://www.chrishanpark.com/

Grataan

Aug. 25, 2009, 12:26 PM

I think David Boggs is in your area;):eek:hah ahaaaaaa

*gasp*

rofl

farmgirl

Aug. 25, 2009, 12:27 PM

twofatponies

Aug. 25, 2009, 12:33 PM

Hi Everyone, Investment was obviously a poor choice of words in this day and age. I did send a pm to the person with a referral, and based on a couple of posts, I will stay away from the Boggs boys. And, you are right - I have no idea who they are. Thanks, everyone. fg

I just took it to mean the owner is willing to spend money to get the horse in a top barn and showing under a good trainer, to bring the best possible show record and sale potential... :D

farmgirl

Aug. 25, 2009, 12:41 PM

Thanks, twofatponies. That is exactly how I meant it.

EqTrainer

Aug. 25, 2009, 12:53 PM

And.. who knows? Maybe he paid a dollar for the horse and it's been an easy keeper :lol: one person's investment is another person's money pit!

findeight

Aug. 25, 2009, 02:10 PM

Or maybe he bought it from Boggs and they convinced him it was an investment horse he could get 6 figures for:lol:. OP, you don't even want to know these people. I did not miss them when at least one was in jail and the other went to ground as we say in hunting.

I read it as he did not want to put any money into training it, if he is willing, it's alot easier. There are some very good people around...it's just that they won't take one in with no experience unless the owner wants it to get some, or at least the top level training to get it market ready.

greysandbays

Aug. 25, 2009, 02:27 PM

farmgirl

Aug. 25, 2009, 03:33 PM

I googled him as I was really curious, too. The little bit I could find indicated that he was convicted of cosmetic surgery (!) on his horses.

ESG

Aug. 25, 2009, 03:50 PM

And allegedly did a lot of other things (abuse, fraud, you name it) that he wasn't convicted for. All in all, someone to steer clear of, which is why I called fernie out for even mentioning him. Folks not in that particular loop could take that the wrong way, as in a COTH recommendation. :eek:

Foxtrot's

Aug. 25, 2009, 04:07 PM

Don't they mean it is an 'investment' in that it is a write-off for all its expenses/losses.

Dazednconfused

Aug. 25, 2009, 04:43 PM

Hi Everyone, I am trying to help a friend find a sales barn for his very nice, young arabian gelding in the midwest. Does anyone know of sales barns for young horses? This horse is very well broken with park horse potential, but has not show. His owner does not have the time or interest in doing that. Thanks, fg

I would tend to agree with those that have said a young gelding is probably not an 'investment' prospect (I would contend that any horse that can't earn back his price is unlikely to be an 'investment'). I would find a top quality english/park trainer to put the horse with to market. Hopefully he is good minded, as if he is a prospect for an amateur or junior rider, that will help his marketability.

I think David Boggs is in your area;):eek:

David doesn't do performance horses, so, even had this post been not-facetious, it's pretty irrelevant.

Arabian Breeders Network-far more peaceful than ABH!

Agreed

A young, unshown gelding is not and never will be an "investment" horse, It's debatable if any of them of any type or sex deserve to be linked with the term "investment".

Unfortunatly, there are a ton of Arabian geldings that have not shown out there and it will, frankly, be hard to sell this one. Period. Let alone at an "investment" price.

The reputable barns that specialize in Arab sales will not take him with no show mileage on just the owners assurance he has "Park potential" unless he is dirt cheap, absolutely spectacularly bred, like the parents both Park Horse Champions or the owner wants to pay to get some show mileage on him. They got experienced show horses they can't sell, they can't take another unknown gelding that has never shown-unless the owner is willing to foot the board, vet, farrier and some training bills to get him saleable.

Had a friend sell a Regional Champion Gelding several years running with halter points and tri colors, wins at Scottsdale and other major venues in California/ Won the Worlds (or whatever they call it) in the youth Trail Horse 3 weeks after selling and the Open Trail the next year (last year, I believe). UNDER 20K. They sold another one that was a Champion in Western Pleasure, Trail, Reining (top ten at world show) and Halter as a youngster for about 10k (he was "old"). Just to give you a price point for geldings. yeah, Park is pricier IF they have the mileage.

People who want Arabian Park Horses usually buy stallions anyway and buy from established Park Horse trainers. Bad habit that particular breed attracts...but that's the way it is.

What I would do instead of the whole Park Horse slant is just market this privately as a nice mannered, well broke horse at suitable price.

But I fear this owner has too many zeros floating around in his head as far as where he wants to price this one...and he is cruising for a bruising in this market-or, really-in almost any market with an untried Arabian gelding.

One other thing, we have some good midwest Arab barns but the BIG money is on the west coast and in Arizona. Ship him there to a BNT and put the money into him and he might get the big bucks. Around here with no Park training, not gonna happen.

This post is so full of misconceptions I don't even know where to start. Any good trainer will be happy to take the horse if he is actually talented & the owner pays for the training. A good horse isn't hard to sell in any market, provided he is put with someone with both marketing and training skills. Trainers are happy to take horses that do in fact have english or park potential, gelding, mare, or otherwise.

The World Championships are halter only. I believe you're thinking of Nationals/Canadian Nationals.

People who want park horses don't particularly look for stallions. Breedable (i.e. mares or stallions), yes. But honestly if you can afford a park/english horse and you're looking for one to show, it doesn't really matter the gender. Park horses are a rare enough commodity as it is, so...

You'd be well served to look up results from nationals from the past couple of years. Last years National Champion open Park horse was a gelding, as was one of the remaining four in the top ten. In the amateur, both champion and reserve were mares, none were stallions, three of the top ten were geldings. Year prior, reserve and two of the top ten were geldings (open), and two of the four top ten were geldings (amateur).

Most of the big time english trainers are in the Midwest & East Coast, not on the west coast. No clue where you got that idea :confused: Chrishan Park as already mentioned (MO/KS), Jim & Peter Stachowski (OH), Joel Kiesner (TN), Rookers (MI), Siemons (OH), Brian Murch (NY), Johnny & Christine Ryan (NJ), Vicki Humphrey (GA), Chad Judy (PA). Actually, the west coast is rather sadly lacking in skilled english/driving trainers at the moment (which is not to take away from the few good ones we do have like Battaglias and Mitch Sperte).

The "midwest" is a very big place.

These guys are in Kansas City and Springfield, and they're at the top of Arabian English pleasure, having won innumerable national championships. I've never had a horse with them, but some friends have and I've been stalled next to them at shows. They're good folks.

http://www.chrishanpark.com/

Good suggestion.

Or maybe he bought it from Boggs and they convinced him it was an investment horse he could get 6 figures for:lol:. OP, you don't even want to know these people. I did not miss them when at least one was in jail and the other went to ground as we say in hunting.

I read it as he did not want to put any money into training it, if he is willing, it's alot easier. There are some very good people around...it's just that they won't take one in with no experience unless the owner wants it to get some, or at least the top level training to get it market ready.

Yet again you are utterly misinformed. Neither has ever been to jail. Bob has a completely separate business from David (David is the one who was suspended for cosmetically altering horses in his care). AFAIK, Bob has never been in any such trouble that you describe.

I didn't read it that way at all. Most people realize they have to get the horse seen somehow and no trainer will do it for free or even just for commission. So that goes without saying, IMO.

fernie fox

Aug. 25, 2009, 04:49 PM

Chall

Aug. 25, 2009, 05:00 PM

Most of the big time english trainers are in the Midwest & East Coast, not on the west coast. No clue where you got that idea :confused: Chrishan Park as already mentioned (MO/KS), Jim & Peter Stachowski (OH), Joel Kiesner (TN), Rookers (MI), Siemons (OH), Brian Murch (NY), Johnny & Christine Ryan (NJ), Vicki Humphrey (GA), Chad Judy (PA). Actually, the west coast is rather sadly lacking in skilled english/driving trainers at the moment (which is not to take away from the few good ones we do have like Battaglias and Mitch Sperte).

Thanks for the list, how about Mary Trowbridge (CT) as well.

Aug. 25, 2009, 06:17 PM

I think David Boggs is in your area;):eek:

I googled him and at the bottom of his homepage he had the list below so he at least has a sense of humor.

Glossary of Horse Terms

* Hock: Financial condition of all horse owners.
* Stall: What your rig does at rush hour in an unfamiliar city on the way to a big horse show .
* A Bit: What you have left in your pocket after you've been to your favorite tack shop.
* Fence: Decorative structure built to provide your horse with something to chew on.
* Horse Auction: What you think of having after your horse bucks you off.
* Pinto: Green coat pattern found on freshly washed light colored horses left unattended for 2 minutes.
* Well Mannered: Hasn't stepped on, bitten, or kicked anyone for a week.
* Rasp: Abrasive metal tool used to remove excess skin from ones knuckles.
* Lunging: Popular training method in which a horse exercises their owner by spinning them in circles until dizzy.
* Gallop: Customary gait a horse chooses when returning back to the barn.
* Nicely Started: Lunges, but not enough health insurance to even think about riding him.
* Colic: Gastrointestinal result of eating at horse fair food stands.
* Colt: What your mare gives you when you want a filly.
* Easy to Load: Only takes 3 hours, 4 men, a 50lb bag of oats, and a tractor with loader.
* Easy to Catch: In a 10x10 stall.
* Easy Rider: Rides good in a trailer; not to be confused with "ride-able".
* Endurance Ride: End result when your horse spooks and runs away with you.
* Hives: What you get when receive the vet bill for your 6 horses, 3 dogs, 4 cats, and 1 donkey.
* Hobbles: Walking gait of a horse owner after their foot has been stepped on by their horse.
* Feed: Expensive substance used to manufacture manure.
* Dog House: What you are in when you spend too much money on grooming supplies and pretty halters.
* Light Cribber: We can't afford to build anymore fencing or box stalls for this buzz saw on four legs.
* Three Gaited Horse: A horse that. 1) trips, 2) stumbles, 3) falls.

THE 12 "MOST IMPORTANT" THINGS YOU NEED TO KNOW IF YOU OWN A HORSE....

1. To induce labor in a mare? Take a nap.
2. To cure equine constipation? Load them in a clean trailer.
3. To cure equine insomnia? Take them in a halter class.
4. To get a horse to stay very calm and laid back? Enter them in a liberty class.
5. To get a horse to wash their own feet? Clean the water trough and fill it with fresh water.
6. To get a mare to come in heat? Take her to a show.
7. To get a mare in foal the first cover? Let the wrong stallion get out of his stall.
8. To make sure that a mare has that beautiful, perfectly marked foal you always wanted? Sell her before she foals.
9. To get a show horse to set up perfect and really stretch? Get him out late at night or anytime no one is a round to see him.
10. To induce a cold snap in the weather? Clip a horse.
11. To make it rain? Mow a field of hay.
12. To make a small fortune in the horse business? Start with a large one.

Have A Great Day, Your Friends at Midwest.

Grataan

Aug. 25, 2009, 10:40 PM

Who was in jail and what did he do?David Boggs was never in jail. He was found guilty by the IAHA (now the AHA) and AHSA of surgically altering horses appearance (removing neck muscles to give the image of a more 'hooky' neck, tatooing pink around the eyes-considered a fault in Arabians, and liposuctioning fat areas )

He was fined and suspended for 5 years with another 5 years probation.

Here is the report:

David Boggs was convicted of: 1. Participating in the cosmetic surgery of ACE OF BEY to correct a wry tail. 2. Participating in the removal of fat from the croup of HAFATI ELEGANCE. 3. Participating in the removal of fat from the croup of NOBELL PRIZE. 4. Participating in a skin cosmetic surgery on RSD DARK VICTORY. (Skin revision on the neck) 5. Participating in the tattooing of the eye of BEY SERENADE. 6. Participating in the tattooing of the eye of BW BALANA. 7. Participating in the unnecessary cosmetic throatlatch surgery of FAMES SECRET LOVE. David Boggs was exonerated of: 1. Participating in any unnecessary cosmetic surgeries on MAGNUM PSYCHE, TAKEMY BREATH AWAY, BHF STING, CAYMANA BEY, SHAH’S LOVE SONG.

Across Sicily

Aug. 26, 2009, 04:13 AM

Sigh, here we go again, another David Boggs bashing thread...

Be sure and add Kevin Price of Price Performance Horses to your list. He's up in Wisconsin and has a long list of Open wins along with some highly successful amateurs. You might also consider Cedar Ridge Arabians in Minnesota. Joel Kiesner is over in Tennessee and has had a sparkling show record as of late.

greysandbays

Aug. 26, 2009, 08:27 AM

Sigh, here we go again, another David Boggs bashing thread...

Well, he needs a little bashing. There's no way he could have not known that what he did violated the spirit of the "law" and would viewed VERY UNFAVORABLY. But he went ahead and did it anyway.

And when he got caught, he didn't take his punishment like a man -- he whined like a girl and had hissy fits, and tried to bankrupt IAHA with his nonsense.

gloriginger

Aug. 26, 2009, 08:49 AM

And when he got caught, he didn't take his punishment like a man -- he whined like a girl and had hissy fits, and tried to bankrupt IAHA with his nonsense.

Snort!!

that's especially funny when you know what he looks like...I always thought a bit like a 70's porn star. Maybe its the mustache.

http://www.midwestarabian.com/about-midwest/index.html Scroll down for photos.

The thing is though, in the inner circles of the Arabian halter ring... they still hail to the chief.

ESG

Aug. 26, 2009, 10:16 AM

I'm sorry,I was just feeling a little frisky.

Having gone head to head with the charming fellow at regionals and nationals a few years ago.,any time midwest is mentioned ,it brings back,really bad memories.

His henchmen tried to stop me videoing their shenanigans prior to some classes.

The man is a jerk,and it is his ilk that made me not want to show on the ayrab circuit any more,

It was such fun,once upon a time.

Understood. I can certainly see why there's no love lost between y'all. But I was worried that farmgirl may have taken you seriously and actually contacted them, not knowing their history. :eek:

Dazednconfused

Aug. 26, 2009, 10:33 AM

Understood. I can certainly see why there's no love lost between y'all. But I was worried that farmgirl may have taken you seriously and actually contacted them, not knowing their history. :eek:

Highly unlikely, as again, they don't take performance horses - just halter.

Snort!!

that's especially funny when you know what he looks like...I always thought a bit like a 70's porn star. Maybe its the mustache.

http://www.midwestarabian.com/about-midwest/index.html Scroll down for photos.

The thing is though, in the inner circles of the Arabian halter ring... they still hail to the chief.

I don't think so. Midwest is kind of its own little world. Now if you mean he still wins, yes. That is true - but Midwest pre-CS was always a leader in grooming, training, and conditioning, and that certainly didn't go away during the five year suspension. They frequently show up with a good horse. Love him, hate him, despise him, whatever - he did serve the sentence given to him (the five year suspension + five year probation) and if he shows up with the best horse, then the horse deserves to win, regardless of who's on the other end of the line.

farmgirl

Aug. 27, 2009, 12:38 PM

Thanks DNC, I appreciate your clarifications and the other names everyone has provided. I also laughed out loud at the definitions provided from David Boggs website, as I am sure others did, too.

Hock might be my personal favorite.

eclipse

Aug. 27, 2009, 01:46 PM

Probably a stupid question, but as I know nothing about Arabians, what is a Park Horse?

luvs2ridewbs

Aug. 27, 2009, 02:44 PM

A park horse is a fancy saddleseat horse. They trot with more animation then a pleasure horse. (Yes, very basic discription as I ride hunters :))

foundationmare

Aug. 27, 2009, 02:56 PM

I wondered about that too!

Across Sicily

Aug. 27, 2009, 11:29 PM

Arabian Park Horse (well, 1/2 Arab, but you get the idea... ignore random puppy thing at the beginning of the video or just skip to about :30): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WssjJVnkAO8

Morgan Park Horse (this being one of the winningest Park horses out there at the moment; you can also see some others in here too!): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJ0Iig4qOzg&feature=related

and Morgan Park Harness just for fun: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gu6oar2swYo

In the Morgans, Arabs and Half Arabs Park is the most extreme of motion, attitude, etc. They are VERY fancy. Manners are last on their list of judging standards because they are to display animation and brilliance first and foremost. English Pleasure horses don't trot quite as high, are more mannerly and just aren't QUITE as bright. Classic and Country horses are judged foremost on manners and they don't trot (for the most part) as high as English horses, and also must carry less weight, padding, and length on their feet.

In ASBs Park is the Morgan/Arab version of English Pleasure, whereas the 3-gaited and 5-gaited divisions are the Morgan/Arab versions of Park. (of course, the Morgans and Arabs are not gaited, or do not show that way, anyways.)

Hope that helps a bit.

Nojacketrequired

Aug. 28, 2009, 04:06 PM

The title of this thread made me snort out loud.
For any of you that were into Arabs in the 80's, I live 5 minutes from Stonebridge Farm in Ontario and watched many a helicopter drop off a film star/millionaire for their Open Houses.
I also watched many an Arab trailered away by the Humane Society, after that bubble burst....

NJR