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View Full Version : Dressage Trainer showing in own show.



piaffequeen
Aug. 22, 2009, 09:13 AM
Would like to just throw this out to all. What are your feelings about a trainer who is hosting a show and showing a horse in it? I don't mind if they show HC but I find it unprofessional if they aren't. I understand the whole showing a newbie at a show atmosphere but it just seems tacky/unprofessional to me.

Any thoughts?????????????

caddym
Aug. 22, 2009, 09:45 AM
I agree its lame and reflects poorly on the professional in many ways.

monstrpony
Aug. 22, 2009, 10:01 AM
Huh? :confused:

As long as the show runs well while the organizer is otherwise occupied, what's the issue? Would you feel the same way if the organizer were some ammy volunteer who took a few moments off from show work to ride his/her own horse? I don't see what the issue is.

SillyHorse
Aug. 22, 2009, 10:23 AM
There could be an issue of impropriety if the trainer who's hosting the show is the person who hired (and paid) the judge.

Anselcat
Aug. 22, 2009, 10:30 AM
I thought the USEF dressage rules said something about whether you can ride in front of a judge when you have a relationship with them (e.g., are a student, trainer, employer, etc of the judge). But I can't find it in the rules -- anyone else know?

I personally don't have a problem with a host trainer riding in their show. The judge should be professional enough to be impartial. Or at least as impartial as they ever can be. Let's face it, judges frequently have opinions/history/dealings with the riders they are judging. And if the host trainer, barn owner, etc can't ride in a show they are hosting, that's certainly a disincentive to go to all the work of hosting.

case solved
Aug. 22, 2009, 12:20 PM
I thought the USEF dressage rules said something about whether you can ride in front of a judge when you have a relationship with them (e.g., are a student, trainer, employer, etc of the judge). But I can't find it in the rules -- anyone else know?

I personally don't have a problem with a host trainer riding in their show. The judge should be professional enough to be impartial. Or at least as impartial as they ever can be. Let's face it, judges frequently have opinions/history/dealings with the riders they are judging. And if the host trainer, barn owner, etc can't ride in a show they are hosting, that's certainly a disincentive to go to all the work of hosting.

There is a USEF rule regarding that. My trainer is an FEI level eventer and she had to train with someone else 3 months prior to a show at which her dressage trainer was the judge. If this is a schooling show its definitely more lax, but i think it's unprofessional. If the trainer is hosting the show shouldn't she be busy coaching her students?

piaffequeen
Aug. 22, 2009, 02:14 PM
Monsterpony-there is a difference if an ammy who is volunteering at a show to go & ride in that show. I am talking about a trainer who owns the property and is the organizer. I just find it unprofessional unless they are riding HC. But then again its my opinion and i was just curious as to what others thought.

Thanks for the input!

Equibrit
Aug. 22, 2009, 02:59 PM
I think you just make yourself look like a dork by whining about it. Just be grateful that she is holding a show.

Magik
Aug. 22, 2009, 03:08 PM
There are several trainers who win 1st place USDF Horse of the Year awards every year and only show at home at their own shows, and at championships at the end of the year.

Equibrit
Aug. 22, 2009, 03:45 PM
The USEF rule for recognized competitions;

4. A manager cannot serve as judge, steward or technical delegate of his own competition. A member of a manager’s family cannot officiate as judge, steward or technical delegate at said manager’s competition.
5. A manager or secretary of a Dressage Competition or an organizer of an Eventing Competition may not compete as rider or handler in his/her own competition. However, he or she may show Hors de Concours if he or she designates an assistant in charge while he or she is showing. This does not absolve the manager’s or secretary’s duties and responsibilities



However; all the trainer would have to do is employ a manager or secretary.

Mardi
Aug. 22, 2009, 03:56 PM
However; all the trainer would have to do is employ a manager or secretary.


yep, seen that done before. Didn't fool anybody though.

I agree with piaffequeen. Traner should stay off the horse unless showing HC.
Why give even a hint of impropriety ?

dressagediosa
Aug. 22, 2009, 03:59 PM
I "host" a schooling show at my farm every year, but it's run by one of our local GMOs - VADA/NoVA did it last year, CDCTA this year. All I do is provide the facility, drag the arenas, put up some signs and show up. I ride in it because it's a nice opportunity for me to get some feedback on how my horses are going without making a big fuss. I don't charge for the use of the facility, so the organizers give me a free ride or two - much cheaper than taking a lesson, but just as much outside insight into how the training is going.

Equibrit
Aug. 22, 2009, 04:00 PM
yep, seen that done before. Didn't fool anybody though.


Why would they have to fool anybody ? It would be perefctly within the rules.

Commander Cody
Aug. 22, 2009, 04:32 PM
Like Dressagediosa, I also run both private and GMO chapter-sponsored schooling shows at my farm and I also will ride in them, sometimes with a young horse needing show mileage, sometimes on a student's horse, sometimes trying out a new test with a more experienced horse. I put a lot of time and effort into running these shows for both my students and the community around me and getting to ride on occasion is an incentive to keep doing the work and opening up my facility. Running dressage shows is not a highly profitable undertaking, so I think it is fine for owner/organizers to ride. I have faith in the skill and integrity of the judges I hire (frankly, I find that when I judge I rarely notice WHO is in the ring once the test starts)

At licensed shows, there are rules about riding and managing or acting as secretary that must be followed and I could never imagine having the time to be able to do both effectively in any event.

jcotton
Aug. 22, 2009, 04:45 PM
A few years ago I had a trainer that put on 3-4 shows a year. She had volunteers through her GMO that did all the organizer stuff. She, her husband and employees for all practical purposes hosted the shows--made sure stalls were ready for competitors, arenas ready, a clean quiet place for the judges to have lunch.

And she did ride in her shows.

And there are more situations like this then you realize. Otherwise there would be very few shows and lots more expensive shows, too

So what's point of this thread....poor sportmanship by the original post? Would you like some cheese with whine--I mean wine.

whitewolfe001
Aug. 22, 2009, 04:47 PM
I see absolutely nothing wrong with this.

Hosting a show is a lot of work. And if it's right there, on her property.... I think she deserves to be able to take a break from organizing and go ride a test.

I do not see how it unprofessional in the slightest. Like the judge gives a freakin hoot if she organized it or not.

Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl
Aug. 22, 2009, 04:48 PM
At a schooling show? Seems like a win win - owner gets something for her having let strangers clean their trailers out in her field (I'm not condoning leaving poo behind - just commenting on what I see happen all too often), you get someone who is presumably moderately alert in the warm up area.

piaffequeen
Aug. 22, 2009, 04:49 PM
I think you just make yourself look like a dork by whining about it. Just be grateful that she is holding a show.

So what's point of this thread....poor sportmanship by the original post? Would you like some cheese with whine--I mean wine.[/QUOTE

Who said I was whining? All I asked was what others thought about a trainer showing in their own show? Where did you read I was whining?

There are plenty of shows to go to in my area both schooling and rated. I have no problem competing against them, I was just asking opinions but whatever floats your boat!

Janet
Aug. 22, 2009, 05:40 PM
A- It is done all the time
B- There is ALWAYS someone who complains about it
C- As long as he/she isn't the show manager or secretary, it is perfectly legal for the facility owner or trainer to ride in the show
D- it is highly unlikely that the judge even knows when the facility owner/trainer is in the ring
E -Even if the judge DOES know who is in the ring, I have never seen a judge score unfairly in that context.
F- This is a small world. If you eliminated every possible source of potential conflict of interest, you wouldn't be able to put on, or attend, ANY shows.
G "Would like to just throw this out to all. What are your feelings about a trainer who is hosting a show and showing a horse in it? I don't mind if they show HC but I find it unprofessional if they aren't." sure sounds like complaining, if not whining to me.

To answer your question, I find it perfectly acceptable, professional and legal for the people hosting the show to compete in it. In fact, to the extent that it gives the rest of us MORE shows to show in, I find it DESIREABLE.

piaffequeen
Aug. 22, 2009, 06:24 PM
All I was asking was how other people felt about the subject and what my opinion was which I am entitled to just as your opinions are entitled to you but I still believe that it wasn't poor sportsmanship or whining on my part just curiosity! It doesn't mean that I would not compete at this person's show if they were showing in it. I just wanted some feedback! Should have known better! :}

Those who have no problems with that's great-its your opinion!

atr
Aug. 22, 2009, 06:39 PM
I have absolutely no problem with it at all.

In fact, I'm usually delighted that the poor sap who has put the work into getting the facility ready for me to be able to show up and ride is getting the opportunity to ride themselves. Because even if you have a professional show secretary (and thank goodness for these people) and other organizers, it's a buttload of work getting a show together.

It never ceases to amaze me what new heights of paranoia people can reach about this kind of stuff.

Bogey2
Aug. 22, 2009, 06:43 PM
I think you just make yourself look like a dork by whining about it. Just be grateful that she is holding a show.

I agree with equibrit.....what is the big deal? Edited to add.....we have a few lovely facilities who put on shows and the "owners" ride. So what? Some are recognized some not.

Home Again Farm
Aug. 22, 2009, 06:55 PM
A- It is done all the time
B- There is ALWAYS someone who complains about it
C- As long as he/she isn't the show manager or secretary, it is perfectly legal for the facility owner or trainer to ride in the show
D- it is highly unlikely that the judge even knows when the facility owner/trainer is in the ring
E -Even if the judge DOES know who is in the ring, I have never seen a judge score unfairly in that context.
F- This is a small world. If you eliminated every possible source of potential conflict of interest, you wouldn't be able to put on, or attend, ANY shows.
G "Would like to just throw this out to all. What are your feelings about a trainer who is hosting a show and showing a horse in it? I don't mind if they show HC but I find it unprofessional if they aren't." sure sounds like complaining, if not whining to me.

To answer your question, I find it perfectly acceptable, professional and legal for the people hosting the show to compete in it. In fact, to the extent that it gives the rest of us MORE shows to show in, I find it DESIREABLE.


:yes::yes::yes::yes::yes:

For many years down here in FL, Valhalla Farm put on lovely dressage shows. The farm owners rode in the show. The secretary and manager were hired. The judging never seemed biased. My friends and I who rode in the shows were very happy to have local, well run shows with excellent judging and a good facility.

Oldenburg Mom
Aug. 22, 2009, 07:01 PM
I used to scribe for judges (a wide variety) for a show where the daughter of the owner was riding ... 4th level and above.

I can tell you this: there was no favoritism in the judges I scribed for. Sometimes she won, sometimes she didn't. I don't think anyone ever thought there was anything ... inappropriate.

DancingQueen
Aug. 22, 2009, 07:08 PM
Well, no theroretically I would not have a probelm with it for all of the reasons already stated above
If I decided to go and saw that trainer dusted off her 2 GP horses for the only class that offered a money price, hmm I might not go back the following year.

ESG
Aug. 22, 2009, 07:09 PM
I think you just make yourself look like a dork by whining about it. Just be grateful that she is holding a show.

Ditto. There are lots more important things to get your knickers in a twist over. :rolleyes:

Anselcat
Aug. 22, 2009, 07:57 PM
Question for the OP -- why do you think it is tacky and/or unprofessional for the trainer to ride for a score in this situation? Just trying to understand the basis for your opinion.

oldenmare
Aug. 22, 2009, 08:56 PM
While I do not think that there is anything wrong with a trainer riding in own show (as long as managed/secretaried by others), I understand the OP's concern. Particularly as she indicated that she is newer to showing than the majority of posters here.

In art shows, for example, it is usually considered "not done" to have a local judge. Same for various other competitions outside of the horse world.

Perhaps a little less judging outside of the ring would encourage better understanding of the equestrian world. And might even attract more supporters and competitors..... which benefits us all.

piaffequeen
Aug. 22, 2009, 09:16 PM
Question for the OP -- why do you think it is tacky and/or unprofessional for the trainer to ride for a score in this situation? Just trying to understand the basis for your opinion.

They can still get a score/feedback if they ride HC-they just don't get a ribbon. I don't have a problem showing if they show HC but I guess to me its taking away a ribbon for those who are showing. Not sure if that was the best explanation. :confused:

But like other COTH posters have said-it happens and I just wanted to see what others thought.

Liz
Aug. 22, 2009, 10:29 PM
piaffequeen - There is nothing wrong with your question. You asked a question about trainers who compete at their own shows and gave your point of view. There are some people who responded that were able to give their point of view from the perspective of the trainer. Now you can decide for yourself how you feel. If you still think it is unprofessional then that is your right and I suggest you patronize other shows. If you can see the other side and decide it really is no big deal, then good for you.

You asked a fair question and got some fair responses. It was not real diplomatic for Equibrit to make the "dork" comment but I don't think it was meant personally and I would not take it as such.

All the best.

Equibrit
Aug. 22, 2009, 10:34 PM
Well, no theroretically I would not have a probelm with it for all of the reasons already stated above
If I decided to go and saw that trainer dusted off her 2 GP horses for the only class that offered a money price, hmm I might not go back the following year.

Why would she want to win her own money ?

blackhorsegirl
Aug. 22, 2009, 11:18 PM
You know, there's always going to be something that doesn't seem fair. This does not in any way negate the concerns over fairness. In a perfect world the playing field would always be fair but we don't live in a perfect world. There's always someone who wants an edge. Several years ago, I was in a area where a judge was judging schooling shows all over our area. This doesn't seem odd except that she, herself, was competing for the same schooling show year end awards. At each show, she was responsible for the scores of those in direct competition with her year end. Did she cheat? Who knows? Can it be proved? No.

What can we do? Nothing but put on our big girl panties and move on. We're not in middle school any more.

mbm
Aug. 23, 2009, 12:08 AM
why is it that perfectly reasonable question(s) get answered with personal comments/slurs and other not-so-niceties that have nothing to do with the original question?

why not just answer the question?

no wonder dressage is looked at so askance by others .... the way we speak to each other is just sad.....

slc2
Aug. 23, 2009, 07:55 AM
The original post lacks sufficient information, and it also seems more like some gossip you heard than any real investigation you made that ineceludes eueendeeeereesetanding the rules.e
e
eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeIt does not break the rules, so it does not bother me. As far as how awful the other answers are, I think that assuming there is something rotten going on is pretty awful too.

If there IS something bad going on, that is because there is always someone who cheats. There ia always a way to break every rule. The thing to try and focus on, is that MOST people DON''T, and that it's just as incorrect to assume everyone cheats as to assume no one cheats.

An essential part of maturity is recognizing that there is corruption in all endeavors. The thing is to adopt a mature attitude about it. To do what one can to stop it, but to accept that that isn't always a whole lot, because there are always some people who simply aren't going to follow the rules unless rules that make everyone's life a misery are passed and we live in a police state.

OP, if you always assume that everyone is cheating, you make your life miserabeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Anselcat
Aug. 23, 2009, 11:08 AM
Slc2, are you in pain and crying out for help? Or are there bansheeeees in your keeeeeeeeeeeyboard?

dutchmike
Aug. 23, 2009, 01:09 PM
Some people always find something to moan about. Unbelievable.:eek:

piaffequeen
Aug. 23, 2009, 02:02 PM
First SLC2- I never implied that this person/trainer was cheating and I have seen it first hand this trainer riding in her own shows-so it wasn't gossip. I was at the show either competing or watching/supporting friends. Like I said in my other posts-I'll still compete at her shows because they are well run/organized.

Liz/mbm-thanks for the support and I knew what I was getting into when I posted this and I have no problems defending it. I just don't stoop to calling someone names because of their opinions. That's what I was asking for!

Gry2Yng
Aug. 23, 2009, 02:50 PM
They can still get a score/feedback if they ride HC-they just don't get a ribbon. I don't have a problem showing if they show HC but I guess to me its taking away a ribbon for those who are showing. Not sure if that was the best explanation. :confused:

But like other COTH posters have said-it happens and I just wanted to see what others thought.

I guess I never look at a dressage class as a ribbon. I look at it as a score. So how I place is irrelevant. If I get a 65% and I deserved a 65% then I am happy. What the owner/trainer in my class received is only relevant to the extent that she was scored fairly just like I was. Whether my goal on a particular horse is to get my bronze medal or a year end award I only look at my placing and other competitors scores to determine whether the judge is hard or soft and whether s/he is using the full range of numbers.

FWIW, my favorite show are held at a facility where the owner rides GP in her shows. She hires a manager and a secretary. She cares greatly about the quality and customer satisfaction. If she did not ride at her own shows she would not have time to ride anywhere else.

bossmare18
Aug. 23, 2009, 04:00 PM
I was at the show. I don't think that there is any reason that she shouldn't show. Her husband/secretary is the show manager. She was riding a clients horse for experience, the horses very first show. There aren't year end awards at this series, so there isn't a confusion there.

Janet
Aug. 23, 2009, 04:01 PM
They can still get a score/feedback if they ride HC-they just don't get a ribbon. I don't have a problem showing if they show HC but I guess to me its taking away a ribbon for those who are showing. Not sure if that was the best explanation. :confused:
Honestly, I don't understand this comment.

In the first place, how is the facility owner trainer "taking a ribbon away from" the other competitors any more than any other comptitor who wins a ribbon. (And if the facility owner/trainer wins a ribbon, he/she HAS earned it.)

Second, if you think the score/feedback is as important as, or more important than, the ribbon, why do you care who else competes HC and who competes for a ribbon?

blackhorsegirl
Aug. 23, 2009, 05:45 PM
Piaffequeen, I seriously doubt if a judge gives a hoot who is in the ring at a schooling show. So the answer is no, I don't think a trainer who rides in her own shows has an unfair advantage. Where I use to board, the girl who ran our schooling shows also rode. The big question is: Does the person who hires and pays the judge "purchase" an advantage? I honestly think not or, at least, I never saw it. However, your question is legitimate. Only you can analyze your own feelings. If you don't like the "idea" of it just show elsewhere. There's nothing wrong with that. If you feel the trainer received scores that were unearned definitely don't show there any more and don't show under that judge. The strongest way to make a statement is to talk with your checkbook.

Bogey2
Aug. 23, 2009, 06:06 PM
And if I may add something...THANK YOU to all of you who run shows...the trainers, the barns the GMO's. Without your effort (and I know it's a lot of work) we would not have the chance to show!
I am happy to have the trainers, BO's, their students etc. at the shows. The more the merrier!

Janet
Aug. 23, 2009, 06:14 PM
I thought about this when I was a show manager.

I think the biggest "conflict of interest" comes when the show manager rides in ANOTHER SHOW.