Question about judging hunters...

[Romany]

Are there standard guidelines for hunter judges?

Just curious, as I helped a friend ride in various hunter classes at a bigger show recently, and I was wondering how the winners were determined, beyond the obvious overall conformation, manners, movement, etc.

For instance, would the ride get more brownie points for landing on the correct lead in the first place, or for landing on the wrong lead but making a tidy lead change?

What loses points for a ride?

Are there marks, say out of 10, as there are in dressage judging?

Genuinely curious, as I know very little about hunters!

[Pat Bryant]

I can only speak from the UK angle but the world over any kind of showing is a cr*p shoot. You can pull out all of the stops, but at the end of the day it is down to the judge. A different judge can mean a different decision - as can the mood of your horse.

I would say that conformation comes first, followed by movement, suitability for purpose, turnout and individual show, A horse that lands on the right leg is always to preferred to one which has to be prompted to change.

[hesakeeper306]

In hunters you get a score out of 100 for your course.
You can lose points for a lot of things; knocking a rail even if it doesn't go down, getting to a bad distance, trot step on course. I think even tapping your horse with the crop can get points off because it shows that your horse isn't listening or something.

[Come Shine]

Yes, there are standards for judging hunters. Some books that explain it well are written by Randy Roy and Anna Jane White-Mullin.

As well, there are guidelines in the Equine Canada rule book.

If you get a chance to attend a clinic on hunter judging, they can be really informative, as well.

[FAW]

There are guidelines in the USEF rule book and the Mullins book, but every judge uses their own scoring system. What faults matters to one doesn't always matter to others. Judging is SUBJECTIVE

[ExJumper]

Although there are a few standard deductions (refusal, rail) there isn't any official list of things that get points taken off for.

There is too much opinion in the whole thing. You can say "conformation," but the difference between a heavy WB type and a finer TB type who both have good conformation is just personal preference. The difference between "a little long," "dangerously long," and "holy $#1!" vary from person to person. One judge might prefer a little bit of a tight spot to a little bit of a long spot. Some judges don't like a little flair in the corner or after a big oxer, some don't mind it, and some wouldn't mind it in a Green class but would dislike it in a 3' class.

So although you can say that "every horse starts with 100 and gets deductions from there," it's not quite so cut and dried. Especially since every horse DOESN'T come in with 100. If it's a bad mover or not as fancy, the very best it could do if it were 100% perfect EVERYWHERE might still only be a 70. So your PERFECT round gets a 70, but someone else with a nicer horse has an error, but her error takes her perfect 80 down to a 75 and still beats you with a bobble or a not-perfect distance.

Every judge's deductions vary. And even a scored class like a classic doen't help you understand too well. Lets say horse #1 comes in and I like it. I give him a 75. Next horse comes in. I like him better, but not much better. I give him a 77. Another horse comes in. I think he's not as good as the prior one but better than the first one. I give him a 76. No judge can really show you numerically the difference between those three horses, and another judge could swap their placings around because of what is most important to her.

And as far as I'm aware, there is ZERO difference in a judges eye between a horse that lands on it's leads, and a horse that does a proper flying change.

[luvs2ridewbs]

And even things that have specific deductions aren't always pinned that way. I saw a horse that jumped all the jumps get pinned behind a horse with a refusal this year. I didn't agree with the placing since the non-refusal horse's mistakes were a long spot (not OMG long) and some head tossing but its still the judges' decision to make.

[ExJumper]

I saw a horse that jumped all the jumps get pinned behind a horse with a refusal this year.

This should really not happen and I doubt that it was on purpose. Mistakes do happen, though. Judges aren't perfect and do sometimes get numbers and horses mixed up.

Unless -- maybe -- it was a schooling show and a horse with a refusal beat a truly DANGEROUS horse that made it around by the grace of god, a horse with a refusal shouldn't beat a horse with no refusal.

[luvs2ridewbs]

It was intentional b/c I and everyone who was watching the class were allowed to see the card since we all so shocked. And no the rider without the refusal was not dangerous-just fresh horse. She placed in her other trips 2nd-4ths with slightly less freshness on her horse's part. (This was a locally rated show but not USEF rated-however follow USEF rules). My only thought was that it was a lower level hunter division so maybe he was judging the horse's behavior as not suitable but the girl riding was obviously good enough to ride the horse through the freshness and at no time did she look over mounted.

[klmck63]

As well, not all judges use a numerical system unless they have to for a class like a classic or if the show management requires it. Some will just write down notes on the judges card in their own code and then pick their favourite six based off of their notes, not off of a score. Some will take notes and keep a running top six as the class goes eg. horse number 12 goes and she decided it sits in between her picks for 4th and 5th so 5th horse gets bumped down to 6th etc.

The scores can make things tricky. Say horse 1 is given a 70, horse 2 is better but not by too much so they get a 72, horse 3 is in between so they get a 71. Then what do you do if you have a horse go that should place somewhere in the middle of all of these horses?

Hunter judging is essentially just a subjective opinion. Standard mistakes like rails, refusals, wrong leads etc. are all mistakes that every judge will take into account but things like chips vs omg long spots really just come down to the judge's preference and opinion.

[klmck63]

It was intentional b/c I and everyone who was watching the class were allowed to see the card since we all so shocked. And no the rider without the refusal was not dangerous-just fresh horse. She placed in her other trips 2nd-4ths with slightly less freshness on her horse's part. (This was a locally rated show but not USEF rated-however follow USEF rules). My only thought was that it was a lower level hunter division so maybe he was judging the horse's behavior as not suitable but the girl riding was obviously good enough to ride the horse through the freshness and at no time did she look over mounted.

Without being there no one can really tell. For whatever reason the judge decided that the refusal was more desirable than the behaviour of the fresh horse. If it was a class for green riders or something similar the judge might have thought the freshness was more dangerous than the refusal. If the show was only locally rated the judge could have been inexperienced or not particularly knowledgeable. I've seen some real jems judging schooling shows from time to time.

[Dinah-do]

A horse that lands on the correct lead could even score lower than the lead changing round if the first horse has an early split or uneven knees.

[luvs2ridewbs]

I know, I kinda wish I had video-ed the rounds b/c everyone watching was just so surprised. And yes, I do think it was a comment on the suitability of horse for that type of class. However, he didn't hold it against her since horse got better and she placed well in her other trips. (As for the horse, he is usually great but this was a unseasonably cold, rainy, windy day and it just got to him.) Oh and the judge is quite experienced. We've shown in front of him alot and he does the "A"s frequently.
My point in all of this is just that judging is very subjective and in the end, they will pin what they want. There are no hard and fast rules to hunter judging like there is in dressage although I wish there were. I would love to get a score card back with comments and a numerical score. My best advice if you end up getting a placing you don't understand or don't like- "You don't have to agree with it but you must respect it."

[showmom858]

Hunter judging is subjective and when you pay money to show in the hunters that is what you are paying for a judge's opinion of your horse's round.

That being said, I just got back from watching DD show this morning in the 3' Children's Hunters at an AA show. In her first round she had a bit of a long one to the outside line and ended up with a 4th which was an appropriate placement for that round. She rode her second round beautifully and it looked like no one else had as good a round as her round which is based solely on my opinion! She was pinned 1st in the second round, so today the judge liked our horse and saw what I saw, but I understand that is not always the way it is. DD also understands it is the judge's opinion and she still loves riding hunters.

[HuntJumpSC]

Please keep the discussion going! I'm judging a small show in a couple of weeks (been severals since I've done so) and have read Mullin's book cover to cover. Tips, ideas, etc...will be most appreciated!

[Romany]

A horse that lands on the correct lead could even score lower than the lead changing round if the first horse has an early split or uneven knees.


"...an early split" - what's an early split?

Fascinating answers - thanks, all!

I suppose I find it kind of surprising that the hunter world in its entirety is HUGE money, and yet the judging isn't more stringently regulated, but seems incredibly subjective from one judge to the next, beyond the obvious, that is.

It's not a criticism - nothing makes anyone do hunters, so, in subjecting yourself to judgement, you must be prepared to accept the choices made by the judge according to his/her preferences, biases, and observations, rather than to some tight "code" - just an observation.

[Trees4U]

All things equal, I thought a horse that landed correct would place over a lead change.

Also, sometimes judges miss things- like when they mark the card or turn to look at something. It can be a second, but I've seen them miss a buck in the corner or a quick break in gait.
And as someone pointed out, sometimes they prefer one type over another. Horse/ rider suitability in the amateurs...

[findeight]

"...an early split" - what's an early split?

I suppose I find it kind of surprising that the hunter world in its entirety is HUGE money, and yet the judging isn't more stringently regulated, but seems incredibly subjective from one judge to the next, beyond the obvious, that is.


When a horse changes leads, they reach way farther out with the new leading foreleg. They do that on the way up on take off instead of top of the arc over the fence? They split their front legs intead of staying tight and even in the knees and look like they are swimming over. Can get a rail or bring a horse down. Major fault and ugly. Very likely over smaller fences as well-the bigger ones back them off and they are not so likely to do it.

First off, Hunters are judged on a curve based on ONLY those other horse's in the ring THAT DAY. There is no national standard for deductions....if there were, you'd see alot of 15s and 20s out of that proverbial 100 at schooling and local shows. Really, just dropping a rail or the stop/drive by are universally the biggies.

Oh, and that horse that stopped at that schooling show? Look at it this way, if it was a beginner kind of class? And the safe and proper thing for the horse to do out of a snail's pace that was rider error all the way? Horse might have finished an otherwise fairly good round with a 55. Other horse might have been a little long and lost, say, 5 points at 6 of the 8 fences (as unsuitable for that level) taking it to 70. Miss a couple of lead changes and it's down to 60. A little head toss somewhere and you got it tied at 55, one more bobble and it gets beat by the refusal.

The non stopping horse could also have been lame and that would also drop it.

Or, the judge was an idiot. Hard to say when it's best of the worst.

[Janet]

Are there standard guidelines for hunter judges?

Just curious, as I helped a friend ride in various hunter classes at a bigger show recently, and I was wondering how the winners were determined, beyond the obvious overall conformation, manners, movement, etc.

For instance, would the ride get more brownie points for landing on the correct lead in the first place, or for landing on the wrong lead but making a tidy lead change?

Not necesarily. It is not uncommon for a horse making a lead change over a jump to "twist" slightly over the jump. And many judges will "take more off" for the twist, than they will "give" for landing on the correct lead. Furthermore, constently landing on the correct lead may make teh judge think that the horse CAN'T DO a clean lead change, and hunters are EXPECTED to "have" clean changes.

So, usually, you will get more brownie points for jumping STRAIGHT, landing on the "wrong" lead, and making a clean change.

What loses points for a ride? In most contexts, it really doesn't make sense to talk about "points" in show hunters. Even though the big classes report a "score" out of 100", hunters aren't judged the same way as dressage.


Are there marks, say out of 10, as there are in dressage judging?
NO.

In dressage, the judge marks a score (ordinal numbers- 1,2,3...) (out of 10) for each movement. Then the scorers do their arithmetic, and post the placings (cardinal numbers - 1st, 2nd, 3rd, ...). In many cases, the judge doesn't know (until he/she looks at the scoreboard) who won.

This approach would be intolerable for most hunter judges. The hunter judge is largely focused on finding the "best" horse, and comparing each horse to the ones before. Assigning a score is a way of keeping track of the ordering, not the end in itself. So the judge may think "I like number 123 better than 101, but not as much as 132. Let's see- I gave 101 an 85 and I gave 132 a 92, so I will give 123 an 87."

COMPLETELY different mindset from a dressage judge.

Genuinely curious, as I know very little about hunters!

Read the posts by DMK and CBoylen for good insight into how jumpers are judged.

[Janet]

And no the rider without the refusal was not dangerous-just fresh horse. She placed in her other trips 2nd-4ths with slightly less freshness on her horse's part. (This was a locally rated show but not USEF rated-however follow USEF rules). My only thought was that it was a lower level hunter division so maybe he was judging the horse's behavior as not suitable but the girl riding was obviously good enough to ride the horse through the freshness and at no time did she look over mounted.

The USEF rules make it clear that the FIRST judging criteria, in classes for Juniors, Amateurs, and Ladies, is MANNERS.

The "fresh" horse, even if it was entirely "suitable to the rider" was demonstrating poor manners.

There are endless discussions about "how much" freshness should be penalized (sometimes even "twitching the tail in the corners" is penalized). But no disagreement that MANNERS are judged.

[pony grandma]

Big thanks I found an answer here for one of my questions - about lead changes over fences vs autos. (my former life was eventing, not hunterland)

But my big question right now has to do with the lack of attention during judging. I just returned from the big h/j at the KHP (went to see the derby specifically) - while I was watching the regular rings one judge is particular was very errant about watching the rides. For the big money that these people pay for the week long show, the travel, the fees - I was horrified at the inattention of the judging. I sat and focused soley upon it to be sure that I WAS SEEING :eek: what I was seeing.

One ride the judge's head was down for 5 straight fences in a row. He saw the first fence, then looked down, and missed a triple line and the diagonal and the turn to the next fence. He didn't even seem to be writing, just not bothering to watch the ride.

In asking a hunter rider there this question they replied, oh yes, that they've seen judges read the paper before. WTF??? So - they already know how they are going to pin the class? Should it be so blatant?

Why would anyone pay to go be treated this way? And at such a top venue?

[Janet]

The judge is really only interested in identifying the top 6 or 8 (depending on how many ribbons).

Once the judge has decided that a particular round "doesn't make the cut", they may not watch it closely.

[pony grandma]

The rider didn't do anything wrong on the 'first' fence. The rider was in the top ranking. What if there had been an error? There was the striding on the triple and two turns and lead changes. Plenty of room for an error and a difference in scoring.

That did occur to me that if a horse was lame that they would quit judging, if a rider wasn't good enough to place etc. But this was very far from the case at this top rated show, and given the quality of the entries. This was just one example, I watched, just the judging, for well over an hour and it was pervasive with this one particular judge. The other judge, back to back rings, would only miss a fence or two every once and awhile (that was bad enough for me). But this guy was habitual.

[kimball1]

Story from over the weekend-my horse was very fresh in his O/F classes-fresh to the point where he bucked and double-barreled right in front of the judge. However he hacked great-and this horse ALWAYS gets a piece of the hack, no matter where he is. Placed him 3 of 3 in small class, and left him off the card in the bigger hack. I laughed it off and said it was probably when he tried to double barrel the judge that he put the "DO NOT CARE FOR THIS HORSE" next to his number. That's hunters...the show before he was on every card of 20-25 horses even when he wasn't that great..

[FAW]

Seen Sue Ashe do that to my trainer in a pre-green class. Saw the first fence and then she looked in her purse and fiddled around and didn't look up until she was finished

[findeight]

We got our share of asshat judges, even at the AAs. And we have some really cheap managers out there who keep hiring unpopular judges (with reason) because they are cheap and always available.

I have shown in front of the one that is known to be vision impaired past 10 feet and reads the paper while the ones he is not going to use jump around-you could lay down a 90 and he already has his card marked. Obviously, being pretty much a nobody, he did not even watch my courtesy circle.

Now, to be fair, that guy has now retired (or so I heard) because nobody would hire him and he heard from the USEF. He was not the listed judge when I entered but replaced somebody becuase, if he was listed, few would have wasted the money.

And you bet I filled out a show evaluation form.

Far as a total waste of money? Yes and no. They were two lovely trips and a very nice hack against top level horses and other people saw them and commented...other people who are R judges who judged me later that year and rewarded me appropriatly.

Part of going to the AA level is developing a reputation based on what you could call your total portfolio of work. If you have a reputation of putting down good trips, you have less to prove walking in that gate-and more to lose. Have learned that is true in all judged disciplines.

[ExJumper]

Story from over the weekend-my horse was very fresh in his O/F classes-fresh to the point where he bucked and double-barreled right in front of the judge. However he hacked great-and this horse ALWAYS gets a piece of the hack, no matter where he is. Placed him 3 of 3 in small class, and left him off the card in the bigger hack. I laughed it off and said it was probably when he tried to double barrel the judge that he put the "DO NOT CARE FOR THIS HORSE" next to his number. That's hunters...the show before he was on every card of 20-25 horses even when he wasn't that great..

A lot of judges remember the O/F classes when judging the hack. My old horse was a phenomenal jumper but a moderate mover. When we had just NAILED both our O/F classes we often did better in the hack than I think we might otherwise have done -- like the judge was looking for us out there. And like in your case, I think that this can work both ways. And what your horse did seems to have been pretty memorable :)

The AMAZING mover will usually win no matter how they jumped, but if you're in the middle of the pack I think your O/F performance can have a lot to do with where you end up in the hack.

[showmom858]

ExJumper - The trainer told my DD the exact same thing yesterday after the show. He said that when you have a horse with an incredible jump that judges often remember that when the horses hack. DD's horse is not the hack winner, but over fences he is awesome. This past weekend he placed 3rd in the hack at a large AA show and the trainer said it was probably because the horse's over fences rounds were standouts.

Slight brag here, DD and her horse had the highest score yesterday in the Children's Hunter Classic with an 85. DD was so proud as this is the best score she has ever received in all her years of showing. And for all those who wonder how TB's are doing in hunters at the AA shows, this is my DD's full TB who is only 7 years old! DD is really looking forward to next season and moving up the the Large Junior Hunters with this guy!

[Alterrain]

And at a huge place like Derby finals, maybe the first jump looked fine to you (no chip/ swap etc) but maybe the horse hung a leg or twisted a little or peeked on landing? Even if they went at the beginning, sometimes the judge thinks, there are for sure better horses coming. still 55 left to go. And doesn't watch the rest of the round closely.

I went to the medal finals last year @ PNHS, and sat there all day, and "judged" off my order of go. There were AT LEAST thirty people I crossed out BEFORE they jumped the first jump, then ran to the bathroom while they finished. why? sometimes, sure they picked up the wrong lead/ reared/ spun etc (major mistakes) but sometimes it was b/c they glanced down for the lead, had a browband with rhinestones (not kidding), or the sitting trot entrance was roached back/ sloppy etc... To someone admittadly "not from hunterland" it would look like they had a good entrance, but I was thinking "I can run to the bathroom, no way anyone with giant fuzzy EQ boots that big is going to be good enough to write down. And you know what? My "judging" pretty much matched the actual judges. (pats self on back.)

[RugBug]

Big thanks I found an answer here for one of my questions - about lead changes over fences vs autos. (my former life was eventing, not hunterland)

I don't think your question was answered correctly. Neither is scored over the other...as long as they are both done correctly without interferring with other things (e.g. landing on lead causing twisting, late flying change).

In hunterland, you don't need a lead change until you need it. There is only an expectation that the horse had lead changes because always landing on the correct lead can be a gamble. Got a horse that doesn't do lead changes but you can land all the leads on nicely? No worries. Got one that will NEVER land on the correct lead but does nice, clean, timely flying lead changes? No worries. (This is probably the better horse to have...but scoring wise there is no difference).

[pony grandma]

while I was watching the "regular rings" one judge is particular was very errant about watching the rides.


And at a huge place like Derby finals, maybe the first jump looked fine to you (no chip/ swap etc) but maybe the horse hung a leg or twisted a little or peeked on landing? Even if they went at the beginning, sometimes the judge thinks, there are for sure better horses coming. still 55 left to go. .... There were AT LEAST thirty people I crossed out BEFORE they jumped the first jump

I wasn't talking about the derby, nor any class with 55 entries! And this rider was not a scratch it rider! The rider if I remember was in the top 3. My point being that some small error could have been made in a triple line with striding and two turns that could have very well effected the top placings, so you missed my point completely.

I fully comprehend a large class and those that will not get judged. I wasn't talking about that scenario at all.

The rider didn't do anything wrong on the 'first' fence. The rider was in the top ranking. What if there had been an error? There was the striding on the triple and two turns and lead changes. Plenty of room for an error and a difference in scoring.

I'm not unfamiliar with jump technique, horse nor rider flaws. I have a wicked eye, expressly why I WAS watching the judging!! just b/c you're not from hunterland does not mean that you are stupid. If you're from hunterland and you prejudge so much maybe ....

p.s TY RugBug

[make x it x so]

I haven't read the replies, but I'd suggest reading Anna White-Mullen's (sp?) book, Judging Hunters and Hunter Seat Equitation. Hunter rounds are scored out of 100, with rounds in the 80s usually considered to be really good- few riders/horses have good enough rounds to score in the 90s.

I'm sure everyone else has already explained the basics pretty well, so I don't feel the need to restate what everyone else has probably said.

[HuntJumpSC]

A lot of our local shows have a hunter hack class, usually tied in with a pleasure division consisting of a walk-trot and a WTC. The easiest way to move this class along is to do the rail work first, then call everyone to the center. They then peel off one at a time to jump their line, and usually are instructed to halt on the line.

There are usually a variety of horses and riders in this class: greenies not quite ready to do an entire course, beginner riders not ready for a course, those using it as a warm up, and those simply in it because they enjoy the class.

There will be a class like this at the show I'm judging in a couple of weeks. Of course, the rules state that there are no martingales on the flat. The question always comes up: Is a martingale permissable in the hunter hack? I can see both sides of it, and of course there are a million reasons why and why not.

What's your take? Yes or no? Why and why not? I'm sure I'll have to make that call, and want to be fair to the competitors, but at the same time, safety at these little shows can be an issue. WWYD?

[RockinHorse]

A lot of our local shows have a hunter hack class, usually tied in with a pleasure division consisting of a walk-trot and a WTC. The easiest way to move this class along is to do the rail work first, then call everyone to the center. They then peel off one at a time to jump their line, and usually are instructed to halt on the line.

There are usually a variety of horses and riders in this class: greenies not quite ready to do an entire course, beginner riders not ready for a course, those using it as a warm up, and those simply in it because they enjoy the class.

There will be a class like this at the show I'm judging in a couple of weeks. Of course, the rules state that there are no martingales on the flat. The question always comes up: Is a martingale permissable in the hunter hack? I can see both sides of it, and of course there are a million reasons why and why not.

What's your take? Yes or no? Why and why not? I'm sure I'll have to make that call, and want to be fair to the competitors, but at the same time, safety at these little shows can be an issue. WWYD?

I have never heard of a martigale being allowed in any pleasure class.

[findeight]

No martingales in the Hunter Hack.
Why? Because it is a rail/pleasure class with a couple of jumps in there and then a halt on a straight line after the second.

Mostly for breed shows where Hunters are not the primary goal of most breeding programs. Also seen at smaller shows where most are not going to be getting around any full Hunter courses at any height.

Judging should be based on the rail work these plus manners over the two jumps. I'd want to see them smooth and hitting the center of both jumps. Personally, I see no need for any particular number of strides as long as it stays smooth. Matter of fact, with a halt after the second and short distance to that rail on landing? Adds would be correct and they should be set shorter then 12'. Especially if some will trot and not canter at all or trot in/canter out as I suspect will happen.

Keep it simple, it is just a pleasure class with those 2 jumps and a halt...and no martingales. Ought not to need them on this anyway.

[pony grandma]

I've always set a 60 ft line for hunter hack b/c it divides out evenly for 12 and 10.

It wasn't your question, just adding the thought.

[Alterrain]

I wasn't talking about the derby, nor any class with 55 entries! And this rider was not a scratch it rider! The rider if I remember was in the top 3. My point being that some small error could have been made in a triple line with striding and two turns that could have very well effected the top placings, so you missed my point completely.

I fully comprehend a large class and those that will not get judged. I wasn't talking about that scenario at all.



I'm not unfamiliar with jump technique, horse nor rider flaws. I have a wicked eye, expressly why I WAS watching the judging!! just b/c you're not from hunterland does not mean that you are stupid. If you're from hunterland and you prejudge so much maybe ....

p.s TY RugBug

Sorry, I misunderstood and didn't mean to offend you at all! I thought you were watching the derby finals! And if I was to talk about eventing you would DEF think I was an idiot! lol

[imapepper]

I think also that hunters might be judged very differently depending on the class. I would judge crossrails to 2'6" as a schooling show differently than I would judge say a pre-green class. At the schooling show/long stirrup/short stirrup level, I think that most judges would pin the quiet consistant round over a flashy jumper with erratic behaviour. I know that when I judge those classes, I try to reward the best ride and look at the whole picture. Whereas in a green class or over bigger fences, I think the horse that has the best jump and canter will win the class.....maybe even over a less flashy horse with a more consistant trip....depending on the judge ;)

[Romany]

A lot of our local shows have a hunter hack class, usually tied in with a pleasure division consisting of a walk-trot and a WTC. The easiest way to move this class along is to do the rail work first, then call everyone to the center. They then peel off one at a time to jump their line, and usually are instructed to halt on the line.

There are usually a variety of horses and riders in this class: greenies not quite ready to do an entire course, beginner riders not ready for a course, those using it as a warm up, and those simply in it because they enjoy the class.

There will be a class like this at the show I'm judging in a couple of weeks. Of course, the rules state that there are no martingales on the flat. The question always comes up: Is a martingale permissable in the hunter hack? I can see both sides of it, and of course there are a million reasons why and why not.

What's your take? Yes or no? Why and why not? I'm sure I'll have to make that call, and want to be fair to the competitors, but at the same time, safety at these little shows can be an issue. WWYD?


Well, my opinion, as the hunter-clueless one who originally posed the question, ;) is that, as far as the overall picture is concerned, the cleaner the look, the better. So, no standing martingale - on the flat AND over fences. I think the straps of a standing martingale (or a breastplate) around a horse's front and dangling up to its noseband break up the visually elegant lines of the look of a horse.

Plus, I don't like what a standing martingale does to a horse's forehand, thus its movement, so I'd rather see them scrapped altogether. If the class is about manners and conformation, then a gadget that I frequently see used to hold a horse's head down and in rather goes against the ethos of what's expected of a perfect show hunter or hack, imo

I'd rather see a simple snaffle bridle only, and a double allowed at the higher levels.

jmo - I'd be interested to see what those of you with a trained eye think!