Tips for keeping the canter round

[zahena]

I'm having some issues with my canter and I'm looking for ways to get my canter to stay nice and round. Well, not MY canter, but my horses. I have a TB who is 11. Bought him out of a backyard. We're working still on framing up and pushing from behind instead of hanging out on our forehand.

As he gets better, we're still having the same issues jumping. He has a nice canter in, but a stride before he flattens his canter out, speeds up and then just sorta plops over the fences. Canter stays flat the stride out and then will round again when asked. I've jumped him up to 3' and he's better over bigger fences it would seem because he has to "think" more but I think he needs to think over the little ones too.

I'm almost 100% positive that this is rider related. So I'm looking for thoughts. I try canter poles but he instead sorta DIVES for the pole instead of using it to round.

[jetsmom]

A lot of TB's hate that "restricted" feeling when someone is trying to keep them in a "frame" when jumping. Most TB's do better when at a freer canter on a course. Keeping a hold of them can often result in them making a bid for a fence.

Try establishing your pace and cantering jumps on a circle using your body and voice and light half halts to balance. Try to make soft, floating reins and a quiet circle your goal. I think you'll find that he stays quieter to the jump (on the last stride), if you aren't trying to frame him up on the way to it. Use half halts (the most important part of the half halt is leg an the RELEASE) to rebalance.

Use flat time to work on balance, doing transitions, circles, spirals etc. Set up canter bounces with poles (start with one bounce and progress to 3 or 4), and you can canter those on a more collected canter, but not a tight frame. The poles will make him get off his forehand.

[magnolia73]

I agree. I have 2 canters with Niki- round flatwork canter, with contact. It carries a lot of power and is lovely. Then to jump, you need to get off her back and stay out of the mouth. It's a nice relaxed canter, not as much power, but she jumps nicely. I work over poles in this relaxed canter.

This is not to say that flat work is not required for good jumping. Indeed, I think that working on the rounder canter, the rounder more connected trot builds the strength and balance for a horse to carry themselves on a soft contact.

[Valentina_32926]

Since he sounds like he always does it at same point then do a Half Halt (bringing hauches underneath himeself) when you expect it - make sure you sit up - perhaps you're leaning too far forward? Smaller jumps I was taught to just "fold" at the waist - maybe you're doing it too early? Just trying to brainstorm as I have no idea.

[zahena]

I do have a tendency to hold my half halt too long. I think his previous rushing has made me a little wary of him. Even though it's not really a "rush" per say.

I'm pretty bent on making things "perfect" and I have a tendency to over ride him. I'm working on some things tonight so we'll see.

Here's some video for an example...... I do also sometimes THROW myself at him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0u99b-hua8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frKS-fxdtoA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLfG9fY-V8U (he normally doesn't refuse but I took my leg off here my fault)

[jetsmom]

You do need to soften your hand some. In your videos the two things that stood out are that you never soften, and you are catching him in the mouth over jumps. Both can make a horse want t o make a bid the last stride. Either use a crest release, where you actually press your hands onto the crest, or use a following hand. You're catching him just as he starts unfolding over the jump.

I'd spend lots of time in 2 pt doing transitionswithout using the reins or neck to balance. W/C/T/C/W etc. Also doing grids of low bounces with trot poles coming in and you in 2 pt,, with your reins knotted on his neck, hands on hips/head/out to the side, will help keep you from throwing your body.

[zahena]

My hands are my nemisis. I try the following hand and he seems to like that so maybe I need to go back to that.

Just some background he LOATHED my old saddle as did i. So we both spent lots of time fighting the old saddle. The new saddle has made big changes so now I just need to learn to trust my lower leg to make my hand more indepedent. Or I need to start out each ride with no stirrups.

[chawley]

My hands are my nemisis. I try the following hand and he seems to like that so maybe I need to go back to that.

Just some background he LOATHED my old saddle as did i. So we both spent lots of time fighting the old saddle. The new saddle has made big changes so now I just need to learn to trust my lower leg to make my hand more indepedent. Or I need to start out each ride with no stirrups.


I would work in the two point at the walk and trot before I did no stirrup work. In my opinion, it's more effective in strengthening a riders independent seat/hands.

Secondly, I'd stick w/ the crest release until you work through this issue. Sometimes with green horses, particularly ones that have been caught in the mouth, the less you do the better. I hesitate to have you half halt right before the jump too. If you're holding it too long, your horse may just react by pulling back harder. Instead, try to be very still, sit up straight, and ask for a light bend five-six strides out.

I also agree to work on jumping on a circle, which will help you to accomplish a similar bend.

[Mayaty02]

You do need to soften your hand some. In your videos the two things that stood out are that you never soften, and you are catching him in the mouth over jumps. Both can make a horse want t o make a bid the last stride. Either use a crest release, where you actually press your hands onto the crest, or use a following hand. You're catching him just as he starts unfolding over the jump.

I'd spend lots of time in 2 pt doing transitionswithout using the reins or neck to balance. W/C/T/C/W etc. Also doing grids of low bounces with trot poles coming in and you in 2 pt,, with your reins knotted on his neck, hands on hips/head/out to the side, will help keep you from throwing your body.


agreed, he's very inverted over the jumps, ears back, which makes me think he's in fear of getting hit in the mouth over the jump. That's also probably why he "flattens out" before the jumps, in anticipation of that issue. What I'd do with him (and you!) is lots and lots of gymnastics where you basically ride through with no contact whatsoever, and let the jumps back him up, not your rein contact. I used to have to ride through gymnastics with my hands out to the side...it's a great way to break yourself of the "hand-y" habit over fences.

[tidy rabbit]

You need to fix the canter work on the flat first. You also need to understand what a quality canter is. Only someone on the ground watching it happen with good solid flat work skills can help you fix it. Telling you to soften your hands is not going to fix this horse's canter.

You need to get his back up and his hind end up underneath him.
You need to stop worrying about "Making him round" and start learning how to get him engaged from his hind end. Once you can do that, then, you can worry about how flexed he is or is not in his pole/throat latch.

You need to back it up and start over. A good exercise that I think works great for horses of all ages and training levels is this:

On a large circle, canter. Keep thinking trot, but keep him cantering, but keep thinking trot. When his mane blows up, you'll be lifting his back up into your seat by squezing him from your knee, thigh, and butt/ hips. Every stride you'll do this. Think trot, squeeze / lift, stay on your circle. You can actually let him trot a couple steps and then go right back up into a nice canter, repeating the process.

Don't worry about where his head and neck are, you just want to keep feeling like you're lifting him with your leg and set every time his mane blows up. LIFT!

Also, a key component to this is to make sure he's straight through his body. You want to feel like you're turning a school bus... shoulders first, dont turn him by his nose. You want to be pushing him around that circle with your outside thigh/knee.

Telling you to soften your hand and just let him figure it out is a cop out with a horse like this. He NEEDS to be supported and he needs to be trained to have a good quality canter. He's not going to just figure it out magically on his own.


Repetition is the key to training any horse. Helping him to establish a good quality canter, knowing what a good quality canter feels like and getting him to the point where he can maintain a good canter around a course is going to take a lot of flat work

[LSM1212]

Amen to everything that TR said... :yes:

I was lucky enough to visit TR and ride some of her lovely horses. And she helped me understand this concept so I could implement it when I got home (and not just with the canter) along w/ the help from my trainer and a very knowledgable friend. My horse also goes more on the forehand and needs to learn to engage and get his hind end up underneath him.

Dressage lessons and major flat work (circle work in particular) is the ticket. I thankfully have a really good friend (thanks Big Mick if you are reading this) that is very well versed in this and she also really helped me and my horse with this. By either "teaching" me from the ground, or getting on my horse and showing me and then I would get back on so I could feel it too. Really helped me truly understand. And my new trainer was working on this with me also.

I was just "getting it" at the trot before he decided that he needed to colic and have surgery and scare the living crap out of his Mom. And yes, he's fine now... ;)

ETA: But I do agree w/ Jetsmom regarding your hands (not just soften a little bit but keep them more quiet) and now DLee about your stirrups.

[DLee]

Possibly shorten your stirrups as well?

[barka.lounger]

bar.ka here

dont u go listen'n to dat dumb bunny, circles smirkles

u come ride grand prix wi'd me

what u need to do is get u a shirt with some peaches on the front

slap a big smile on ur face

set them jumps up BIG

and gallop, gallop, gallop

hug ur legs around the girth, grab some mane, and let the cards fall where they may

no need waste time on flat work. just git'em up and go

[zahena]

Possibly shorten your stirrups as well?

Really? You think? Sometimes I feel they are too short, then sometimes too long. I sometimes like to crawl up his neck and jump ahead of him (haha, hence why he rushes) and found longer stirrups stopped my jumping ahead but now maybe make me sit back too soon?

Haha, Barka Lounger he'd love that. He likes to see bigger fences because i ride them differently I guess?

[zahena]

And I agree that ALL fixes need to come on the flat before o/f. If you don't have it on the flat, you will never get it o/f.

[MaryKay]

You have received some excellent observations and suggestions. The one that I agree with most is TR's suggestion of having knowledgeable eyes from the ground. You are going to need those eyes to help you fix this-take some lessons. We often get into habits we aren't aware of until those eyes see them and help us correct them. It will be a much faster, less frustrating journey if you have help. :-)

[zahena]

Sadly help is somewhat unavailable to me. How about having a board on here for my on-line coaches?? I'll video, y'all rip me apart. :D

Oh wait, me and TR are already on that one.....

[barka.lounger]

bar.ka here

ur horse rushes 4 lot of reasons

put jumps up u ride better?

mayb u need to ride all jumps same no matter size?

u come to bar.ka camp, we teach lots of beginners how to ride grand prix

[Czar]

Remember too that some horses are just not built round and take much much more work to get it.

I have to agree with jetsmom; some types of TB's just don't do well with all that holding. I would assume that's why you see more WB's at the high levels of dressage as opposed to TB's - most are just not built to travel that way. All one has to do is look at their breed background - they were engineered to cover ground with lean athletic bodies and muscles meant for running.

However, that certainly does not mean that they cannot be taught but it's important to consider the type of TB you have as well. The more sensitive types will obviously be harder and picking a horse with contrary conformation (neck set high or inverted) will be really difficult. When I buy my young TB's I always look for a super quiet, willing temperament and a naturally low head carriage so even if they have trouble keeping a round canter on course, they will at least not have their head stuck in the air.

I do hunters so having to hold to get a round canter is not really the look I am going for. I work on getting my horses to come back to me when I ask and than carry on with a balanced and adjustable canter. They may not have the "profile" of the fancy WB hunter but they also usually don't have the attitude (or strength :dead:) either ;)

[LookinSouth]

II have 2 canters with Niki- round flatwork canter, with contact. It carries a lot of power and is lovely. Then to jump, you need to get off her back and stay out of the mouth. It's a nice relaxed canter, not as much power, but she jumps nicely. I work over poles in this relaxed canter.

This is not to say that flat work is not required for good jumping. Indeed, I think that working on the rounder canter, the rounder more connected trot builds the strength and balance for a horse to carry themselves on a soft contact.


I agree with this completely and it fully describes how I have to ride my TBX as well. Flat days are more in a dressage frame, more collected and he works quite nice and round doing flatwork. We also work on things like leg yields, shoulder/haunches in, lengthenings etc...

Jump days we work more in a hunter frame, looser rein and I ride in a half seat most of the time. He is much happier and consistent jumping like this. He is able to stay balanced and light at the canter because of all the time we spend doing more challenging flatwork to develop topline and proper muscles.

[LSM1212]

Really? You think? Sometimes I feel they are too short, then sometimes too long. I sometimes like to crawl up his neck and jump ahead of him (haha, hence why he rushes) and found longer stirrups stopped my jumping ahead but now maybe make me sit back too soon?

Haha, Barka Lounger he'd love that. He likes to see bigger fences because i ride them differently I guess?

Hmmmm... usually the reason a person crawls up a horse's neck is because their stirrups are too long and they have to throw themselves forward to "catch up" with the motion... and then in return on the landing they fall back and the horse gets popped in the mouth and you sit down too soon. I really would try putting them up a hole. JMO.

For me, what really does help is if I go through my "checklist" before each jump. Each person's checklist is different so I can't say what yours would be. But here is mine and it works well as long as I remember to do each step...

(1) push my heel down and push my lower leg forward slightly as I tend to let my leg slide back
(2) push my tush back
(3) close my hip angle
(4) plant my hands so I don't pop my horse in the mouth
(5) after the jump I stay in 2-point for a stride or 2 and then sit back up

[tidy rabbit]

I'm with Czar about conformation playing a big role. My warmbloods are much more able to carry themselves correctly in a frame - it's just easier for them than it is for my TBs. It takes 10Xs the amount of work for the TB to do what the WB can do more naturally.

Certainly the type of canter work to improve the canter in general is NOT the kind of canter work you do on course while jumping... however doing correct flatwork will make your horse better for jumping and carrying himself around a course of jumps be it in the hunter ring or the jumpers or even in the eq classes.

While the two styles of riding are very different I can tell you when I get up in a half seat or two point and gallop to a jump, my horses are able to carry themselves and stay light in front and that only comes from doing quality canter work on the flat. They are adjustable and listen to me.

[LookinSouth]

As far as the video, I think everyone covered the obvious.

But I think it might also be helpful for us to see a video of you riding on the flat at the canter so we can compare and see for ourselves what you are describing as the issue.

[zahena]

I usually crawl up his neck because I'm thinking more of "okay get outta his way". Sometimes I jump ahead, sometimes not. We usually work well together with finding the spot. And maybe sometimes I'm too busy trying to push him into the spot I found for him than letting him find the spot. Or make the mistake of getting a crap spot. We have lots of "discussion" before a fence sometimes about where he should go. OUr better fences are when I find one 5 strides out and stick with it.

He's never going to make a hunter simply because he really doesn't have the movement. He's got some knee action trot going on and he really prefers SOME contact at the canter otherwise he just won't go into it. But agreed about the holding, he likes to know your there, but not hanging on. Sometimes I hang on.

[zahena]

As far as the video, I think everyone covered the obvious.

But I think it might also be helpful for us to see a video of you riding on the flat at the canter so we can compare and see for ourselves what you are describing as the issue.


Oh you bet!

Trotting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcL5ecAYL28

Cantering
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAbbihPg-ME

He'd never been here before so he kept looking at the horse cantering at himself in the mirror. Dork.

[tidy rabbit]

In the canter video, do you see how far back his outside front leg comes underneath him? Way way behind the vertical, way under his body? And how his hind end is trailing out behind him? His front leg should not be bending back so far under his body.

The more weight you put in your stirrups the more you are going to encourage him to go on the forehand.

If you were to sit down in the tack, practice lifting his back up into your seat, feeling his hind end come up underneath him, you'd find a different canter. Thinking of riding a fire hose helps me get the engagement. Then when I go back to my 2 point work, I think "get up here with me" and keep lifting the front end even while in my 2 point and I can keep an engaged light canter.

[LookinSouth]

Oh you bet!

Trotting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcL5ecAYL28

Cantering
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAbbihPg-ME

He'd never been here before so he kept looking at the horse cantering at himself in the mirror. Dork.


I am not an expert by any means so take this fwiw and keep in mind I am only responding based on what I saw and my personal interpretations. I am sure others with more experience will have better advice :D.

I feel like the canter on the flat isn't much different than your canter o/f. I am thinking you are gripping with your upper thighs and your knees because I notice your lower leg kind of swinging a bit. I think TR's analogy of driving a bus and the tools she mentioned to achieve this would be really helpful in your flatwork. It may not be a bad idea to jack up your stirrups a bit either. It will force you to sit back more and use your lower leg more.

To me it looks like you need to use more lower leg to support him (but of course don't lose the contact with the upper thigh either ), especially in the bend using your inside lower leg pushing into a supportive (not restrictive) outside rein AND into a supportive/closed outside leg. It wouldn't hurt to sit the canter on the flat and lift your ribcage so your posture is more upright as well. I think it will be hard to develop the canter your looking for by solely riding in a half seat in a more forward position. Maybe I'm wrong, but I know it doesn't work for my own horse.
You also appear to be stiff in the elbow, as in your not moving your elbows with the action of his head moving at the canter. Think of adding a little more elasticity to your elbows, it will help when you add more leg as well. I tend to forget to move my elbows with my horses head at the canter and boy does he remind me quick by yanking my arms out of their sockets :winkgrin:

If you have any opportunity to work with a dressage trainer or someone with a solid dressage background I think it would be really beneficial. I know it has helped my flatwork and overall communication with my horse by leaps and bounds.

[tidy rabbit]

The trot work needs a major over haul too. Part of it is your posting... you're posting sort of straight up. He's sort of lollygagging along. There is no "throughness" to his trot step. You need to really really get your body engaged in what is going on with your horse. Your posting can completely change how a horse carries himself.

As an exaggeration try REALLY thrusting your hips forward over the pomel to the point it feels ridiculous. Knees, thighs, and hips driving him forward. And a dressage whip on the inside, and a good spur, if he does not MOVE up when you post him forward, give him a kick and tap and GO. If you strengthen his trot and stop being a passenger his canter will also improve.

TIP: Make sure you count your posting rhythm, 1 on the up 2 on the down and make him trot to YOUR rhythm. Make him do it. Take charge.

[LookinSouth]

If you were to sit down in the tack, practice lifting his back up into your seat, feeling his hind end come up underneath him, you'd find a different canter. Thinking of riding a fire hose helps me get the engagement. Then when I go back to my 2 point work, I think "get up here with me" and keep lifting the front end even while in my 2 point and I can keep an engaged light canter.


:yes::yes::yes:

[LSM1212]

The trot work needs a major over haul too. Part of it is your posting... you're posting sort of straight up. He's sort of lollygagging along. There is no "throughness" to his trot step. You need to really really get your body engaged in what is going on with your horse. Your posting can completely change how a horse carries himself.

As an exaggeration try REALLY thrusting your hips forward over the pomel to the point it feels ridiculous. Knees, thighs, and hips driving him forward. And a dressage whip on the inside, and a good spur, if he does not MOVE up when you post him forward, give him a kick and tap and GO. If you strengthen his trot and stop being a passenger his canter will also improve.

TIP: Make sure you count your posting rhythm, 1 on the up 2 on the down and make him trot to YOUR rhythm. Make him do it. Take charge.

Oh how I remember this!!!! *hehehehe* I started that with Stitch when we got home from your place. Really did make a difference. :)

[zahena]

Well the biggest issue I have with him is that he's pretty slab sided and let's be real. I'm a little too big for him so my leg doesn't exactly wrap around his barrel so I need to work on that more. My other trainer (jumping) had me riding him off more thigh than lower leg so I need to try to pull that back. Its hard being 5'10". *sighs*

Okay so we'll work trot being more energized and canter being more up. Stay tuned for more video.... LOL!!!!

[magnolia73]

I agree on finding a dressage trainer or someone with a good flatwork background. You and he are ready for the next level of finesse. He looks pleasant, and you look pleasant. He seems calm and relaxed, and you look competent. So now, next level- he uses himself better, you learn to let it happen. Just looking at him, he lacks muscle and am betting with some good flatwork, getting him forward with a swinging back, reaching for the bit will begin to form all the muscles needed to support a good canter. The key is letting go of the idea that hands to the work, its your leg and seat pushing into a soft hand.

Once you feel a properly engaged horse, you will understand a lot of concepts. It's like they lift off your leg and arch into your hand vs rush off your leg and you hold 'em up. You end up developing that quality over time. Like for me, 33% of the time, my horse works like that. The other 33% we putz around and the other 33% we are working towards engagement. But it starts giving you more tools than hand and leg. You get a feeling you can put them anywhere easily - and you can including lengthen/shorten/turn/transition. And they become more rideable when you are putzing around. I work a lot of leg yields and turns, lots of inside leg to outside hand.

It's hard to figure out on your own. Lessons with someone good are pretty important because the key is the hind end and the back, not where the head is. But once you get the feel of it, it gets easier to recreate.

[myvanya]

You need to fix the canter work on the flat first. You also need to understand what a quality canter is. Only someone on the ground watching it happen with good solid flat work skills can help you fix it. Telling you to soften your hands is not going to fix this horse's canter.

You need to get his back up and his hind end up underneath him.
You need to stop worrying about "Making him round" and start learning how to get him engaged from his hind end. Once you can do that, then, you can worry about how flexed he is or is not in his pole/throat latch.

You need to back it up and start over.


I agree and would add more to this. I ride an OTQH (appendix) and his canter was a mess at first, however, I doubt it was because of his breed or conformation but more due to his lack of correct work. If possible I would also encourage you to try to get some good dressage training as that is invaluable for establishing good gaits and is a great learning experience. All that being said here are some ideas....I will say though that I am not a trainer...I don't even pretend to be one; these are just things I learned on my own horse.

What I have used with a great deal of success is lungeing (spelling?) my horse in side reins (the ones with the rubber doughnut...I hate the other kinds!) attached from his girth close to where it meets the saddle running straight to his bit. Put the inside one a little tighter than the outside one so he will bend correctly. The let him walk for a while and then do bunches of trot to canter transitions. This allows him to learn the balance in the canter on the circle and get his butt under him and strengther his back musscles without the added challenges of a rider (the transitions are great for all that). It has helped me a great deal.

Doing lots of 20m circles at the canter and lots of trot to canter transitions under saddle while maintaining proper impulsion, balance, and bend is also helpful.

I also would say to remember that coming round has to come first from proper impulsion from behind- it should not be a frame but rather a way of going...just had to include that...sorry:)

Getting your riding in line is very important too- I struggle to not tip forward in the canter; I really have to focus on not pinching with my knee and sitting back and staying tall and centered. When I tip forward I will put my horse on the forehand (or incline him in that direction)...if I pinch with my knee I restrict the motion of his shoulders and stop the impulsion from his hindquarters from moving all the way up through his body....so every little thing we do has an effect.

[zahena]

Exaclty, that's why I feel like so many of his issues are "me" related. In the video I was riding more front to back instead of back to front. Sadly the people I was workign with at the time didn't really ever call me out on that. So now it changed my perspective on stuff a little and so I try to ride him that way. Totally my fault. I was trying to get him off his forehand by having him on his forehand if that made sense.

I need to jot down notes from this thread so I can have them in front of me when I ride. I want him to "be all he can be" and he really has put forth an effort to be tolerant do do exactly what's asked of him. He's sweet and smart and I think he could easily be nice if I just had more guidance from an upper level professional on the ground. I realize he's not "fancy" but he could be "nice" and that's my goal for him.

[tidy rabbit]

OP and All....

This has been one of the more interesting threads on the H/J forum in long time.

Thanks OP for bringing this up and allowing us all to discuss and learn from each other. :)

[zahena]

OP and All....

This has been one of the more interesting threads on the H/J forum in long time.

Thanks OP for bringing this up and allowing us all to discuss and learn from each other. :)

Thanks. I was worried about posting video because I didn't want anyone to look at me and go "WHAT AN IDIOT! WHO GAVE THIS GIRL A HORSE!" :eek: But sometimes you have to take a leap.

And let's be real. I need instruction from other sets of eyes. different people see different things. Or you know, the same thing. LOL!!!

I always said it was my goal to be the best that I could be and how else are you gonna get there?

[LookinSouth]

OP and All....

This has been one of the more interesting threads on the H/J forum in long time.

Thanks OP for bringing this up and allowing us all to discuss and learn from each other. :)


I agree.

[Philliab]

I agree...this is a great thread!

I just wanted to add that to help me keep a soft arm and hand, I think lift my hands. I find that when I ride with my hands down and a straighter elbow, I stand in my stirrups and try to pull them into being round. If I lift my hand and create more bend in my elbow, I naturally lengthen my leg and sit lightly into the canter. That closes my leg and allows me to ride from front to back into a beautiful, soft, correct canter.

Just a suggestion as I have this problem with my TB. But I can tell you that when you find that balanced canter, you'll known it because it is so much nicer to ride. :yes:

[zahena]

Personally I felt like this board recently had become less educational and more flaming. Kinda kept me away for awhile. :) But I know there is also some good advice on here too. It's what keeps me comin' back for more!

[LookinSouth]

Well the biggest issue I have with him is that he's pretty slab sided!


This is where shortening your stirrups until you CAN wrap your legs around the barrel will help you. My horse is fairly wide backed and has a great barrel to wrap around. I find when I ride most other horses I need to put my stirrups up a few holes so that I can wrap my leg around and use my lower leg properly to create the impulsion from behind. If I leave them too long I feel like they are just kind of dangling there, useless.

[zahena]

When your legs are this long they are useless! Kidding!!!

I'll shorten my irons like 2 holes tonight. I still need to buy new leathers because I sorta feel like my leathers GROW as the session goes on. Maybe its this crazy Texas heat.

[Einstein]

Flat work, flat work and more flat work.
It has nothing to do with your horse being a TB or slab sided. This horse need be taught to use his hind end and come onto the bit, that takes time. Dressage lessons would benefit both of you.:)

[wanderlust]

I'm a little late to this thread, but here goes.

1: Ditto everything tidyrabbit said.

2: Your heel is down, but it still looks like you are riding off your toe, which tips everything else forward (I think this is because your stirrups are too long as well). You have a long torso, staying tipped over like that on a small horse is going to tip everything forward for him, too. Pull your shoulders back, lead with your belly button a bit more. Just because you are a h/j rider doesn't mean you need to perch/tip- until you get a more solid base of support in your leg that can support being a bit broken at the hip, sit up tall.

3: Related to #2, when you are jumping, you lean at the fence strides out, and then are very quick with your upper body. Horses don't like being leaned at- it makes them rush. Think about staying tall all the way to the base, and then instead of jumping for him and throwing your hands up his neck, instead think about putting your hands "down and forward" to his neck (this is the mental imagery I use when I start over-releasing) instead of "up the neck". Stay soft and in 2-point after the fence- don't go grabbing for the reins, float them for a stride or two and see if he relaxes. I bet he will.

4: Your hands are in your lap, and they are rigid. You cannot pull a horse's head down by lowering your hands. Shorten your reins, carry your hands up, bend your elbows, follow the horse's canter from your shoulder, allowing your elbow to flex. This is all going to soften your hands.

5: Forget about where your horse's head is. Seriously. Worry about pace, rhythm and balance. Go watch any hunter class, almost none of those horses is "on the bit". Go watch the jumpers- a lot of them aren't either. My horses all flat like dressage horses, but when we jump, I don't worry if they are poking their nose so long as I have a connection/contact that I can make appropriate adjustments from (in conjunction with appropriate amounts of leg).

6: Some of the fences where he rushes on takeoff and is unbalanced on landing, your distance is a bit long/gappy. I think maybe if he got a little closer to the base, he'd be more comfortable about the takeoff, and the landing would follow.

Hope that helps!

[jetsmom]

Shortening your reins will help you to not throw your upper body. I don't know WHY it works, but it does.

[tidy rabbit]

Shortening your reins will help you to not throw your upper body. I don't know WHY it works, but it does.


Maybe it is sort of like trying to do a push-up with you hands at your belly button instead of in-line with your shoulders? It changes your whole center of gravity?

[zahena]

So I rode him tonight, but am sad to have just now gotten Wanderlusts' post. Very insightful as well. Thanks for posting!

Since its like 9,000 degrees in Texas today I didn't ride him TOO long, but tried to make it more quality than quantity. Things I noticed.....

1) Shorter stirrups helped TONS! (whomever said that first, you get a lollipop) :D I went even shorter than my usual jumping length and so much better. Which brings me to a pet peeve of why do trainers never make that change???
2) I tried the lifting canter. TR has already been 'thanked' for the burning fire of hell on my inner thighs. He would lift when asked and poke when asked.....
3) I did the following hand on a circle over fences with the lifting canter and he was perfect.
4) I ride cross rails badly. I don't know why, maybe I just don't take them seriously so it's just ugly. Not ugly.....but I obviously don't care. and niether does he.
5) Thought of the elastic elbows/not braced hand/ stay outta his way and it worked. Several nice fences even if they were tiny.

So all in all tonights ride was very nice. He's such a good boy and he always tries to play nice in the sand box with me. He's insanely willing so how do you argue with that?

I do need eyes on the ground to help me. But at the point I'm at it's hard to find someone to tell me these things. :no: And the trainer who is able to make it where I ride at can't do the days I can. But we'll work it out. The lady who is in charge out there loves to take field trips and the hauling fee is minimal so we can always go off property and take a lesson elsewhere.

[ontarget]

You need to get his back up and his hind end up underneath him.
You need to stop worrying about "Making him round" and start learning how to get him engaged from his hind end. Once you can do that, then, you can worry about how flexed he is or is not in his pole/throat latch.

I know TR posted this a while ago, but... I can't help but comment on how exactly SPOT ON this is. I see so many riders trying to go for frame without realizing that it has to come from the hind end. As my trainer would say, frames are things that go around pictures. Get the hind end and you get the whole horse.

I have merely skimmed over most of the comments and watched brief portions of your videos, but would like to throw out some thoughts as well.

It looks to me like your seat has not been developed. It appears almost stuck and does not move in accordance with the horse. It looks as if your lack of balance (slight leaning forward, allowing the horse's hind end to get even further away from him) is what is causing these issues over fences. Think about someone sitting on your shoulders. Imagine walking with the person on your shoulders, and all of a sudden they lean forward. You, of course, will have to stumble forward even faster and sort of scoop them up to get them back in balance on top of you again. The person falling forward on the shoulders is exactly what the rider does to the horse. This is why many horses rush/flatten/let their hind ends get out behid them because the riders are either leaning, lacking balance, or too much on the forehand.

I think developing your balance and seat with focus on bringing the hind end forward would tremendously help every aspect of your riding. Here are a few ideas that might help with this:

Ride without stirrups and with leg weights with focus on horse's movement (I usually use 5-10 lb leg weights... you can get them at any sporting goods store). See if you can get somone to call out the horse's beats to you and focus on feeling each leg move as well as the movement of the hindquarters. Think about your seatbones and how they should move independently in exactly the same motion as the horse's hips. Allow your seat to follow the horse's movement rather than stay stiff and in one position, and keep your leg completely relaxed, stretching, and wrapped around the horse's side. The goal of this exercise is NOT to kill your legs. If you are getting sore (other than your butt), then you are not staying relaxed. This will help you stay out of the horse's way and develop your seat such that you can feel the hindquarters and help the horse truly become "through."

Exercise #2 is practicing standing up in the stirrups and going into 2 point at all gaits. You will most likely not be able to do this right away for any length of time, and certainly not at all gaits, but this will tremendously help you find your center of balance--key to staying out of the horse's way as much as possible to keep the horse from getting on the forehand. You will probably have to develop some method of switching between 2 point and regular work. For example, say, 2 strides of trot in 2 point and 2 strides sitting/posting. Keep trying to lengthen the time out of the saddle with focus on center of balance (NOT using reins as support! Do not touch the horse's mouth at all if possible). Make sure to put your weight on the balls of your feet with heels down and do not grip too tightly with your legs.

To get the horse moving correctly from the hind end, I do a ton of transitions as well as lateral work. I usually do a lot of trot/walk/immediately trot on a circle to bring the back up and get the horse moving forward and off the forehand. On a circle at the trot, allow the horse to walk by sinking in the saddle. As soon as the horse has walked, ask again for the trot. Do not let your aids get too strong or you'll have a runaway horse, but I find that I can tell whether the horse is on the forehand or not by how quickly they can make the transition. If they sort of fall into the walk and can't immediately trot off because their hind legs are dangling out behind them, then they are on the forehand and don't have the balance on the hind end to maintain impulsion. You want to kind of maintain the idea of flow throughout... imagine that you have a tube of toothpaste between your legs and you are trying to squeeze it out from the back and catch what you are "creating" lightly at the front. That's what the transition and movements should feel like.

I am not entirely sure that the shorter stirrups are a long term fix for you. I think that once you find your center of balance and develop your core muscles, you will find that the stirrups do not have to be short. I think that if you were unbalanced with the longer stirrups, you will again become unbalanced (or maybe already are, it just feels more comfortable to you) with the shorter stirrups.

Hope you can get something out of this... Most problems with jumping stem from flatwork. Jumping is just flatwork with obstacles in the way.

[magnolia73]

So all in all tonights ride was very nice. He's such a good boy and he always tries to play nice in the sand box with me. He's insanely willing so how do you argue with that?

You have the nicest attitude. Whoever you find to teach you will be so lucky to have someone who gives it a try, and doesn't blame her horse. For all the topics you see here "My horse is doing something wrong is it my bit, shoes, footing, stifles, hocks..." you come out and say hey, my horse is doing something wrong- how do I improve?

Ontarget- you have some interesting ideas. The leg weight one makes perfect sense. I have been told so many times, let your legs hang like a wet towel. I've done the second exercise- and that is a good one- exposes right away a lack of balance. And... thanks for explaining the transitions- I often end up with a runaway.... unless my horse is engaged, but then yes, I am whispering with aids. When she is strung out, I'm kicking and tugging.

So much useful information here for EVERYONE. Zahena, to be quite honest, you are not the only one benefitting from this feedback!

[zahena]

I hate it when people always blame their issues off on their horses. I know my guy probably has SOME issues. LIke his saddle fit. He hated it. I call him "the ninny" all the time because he's like "I HATE THIS SADDLE, AND I WILL HAND GALLOP AWAY UNTIL YOU FIGURE THAT OUT!" change the saddle, changed the horse.

He lets me know when things are right/wrong with him. and he's not afraid to be a jerk about it. But if he's not being a jerk, then it's something I'm doing to annoy him and I know it. We're not the best team ever. I'm too big, he's too small but we work. Sometimes, yes, my balance is off because he's smaller for me so we do need to work on that.

All in all though I know my guy. I know when something hurts him and when it's just me being a tool. LOL!!! If you're always trying to better yourself you need to look at it from all aspects and sometimes the hardest finger to point at the problem is when you point it at yourself.

and so far I haven't been BBQ'ed too bad on here! Wish my batteries weren't dead last night so I could be MORE critiques!!!!

[tpup]

Zahena, you guys look great and this is such a great thread. I too struggle with the same issues (except I am short) ;)

I have been working with a wonderful teacher and her recommendations have really helped me. When I watched your video, the first thing that came to mind is also that you need to sit in your saddle. You are perched up and forward, standing in your stirrups almost at times. I do the SAME thing and one thing that has helped is to practice cantering exxagerating sitting BACK. Lean back, sit, sit, sit in your saddle like you're going to halt and stay sitting in your saddle.

Before we worked on the above, my teacher had me do a TON of 2-point. First at the W/T...I had been riding for a long time with no weight in my lower leg. She had me go up into 2-point, grab mane if I needed at first and find my center of balance over my saddle. First at the walk for a few minutes, then the trot. Eventually, no mane or holding onto anything except reins several inches above withers. Feel your weight sink into your lower leg - do not just jam your heels down, but feel your weight sink down - close your eyes and find you center of balance over your saddle. You will need your core! Try this for a few minutes at W/T, then at canter....once you can 2-point with no hands at canter and once you feel your weight is down and you are centered over your saddle, hold the thought, keep legs in SAME position and then SIT DOWN. You should feel a significant difference and security when you canter. I can't believe how much stronger I became doing this. When I feel off balance or like I am tipping forward, I do the above a bit.

Also canter without stirrups. Your butt will be glued to that horse and you'll find your seat. I love doing this - you "have" to move and stay with your horse.

For your hands and elbows, always think "elbows at ribs" but RELAX your shoulders, arms and wrists. Keep your hands above the withers. (I used to always reach down, think straight arms bracing over withers.)

The other thing that helped me tremendously is to trot with your reins tied or on a lunge line...post with no hands or reins and take your HANDS and touch your shoulders - fingertips on shoulders. Don't know why, but this changes your body position, takes tension out of arms and shoulders and I could not BELIEVE how my horse moved and how much better I posted on the lunge line. I absolutely loved this exercise. I felt him change IMMEDIATELY when I put my fingertips on my shoulders. (right fingers on right shoulder, left on left - the backs of your hands will be facing forward)....once I took my hands out of the equation, I had one happy, forward, light horse. I think of this often when I ride and it helps me relax my shoulders and hands and find my balance over my saddle, not in my arms and hands.

I hope this helps you! PM me anytime....we are at the same point in our riding but I am not even jumping yet :) Good luck!

[H/J Anonymous]

Zahena, good post as all others have said. One thing that helped me try and fix myself more was to go back to the lunge line lesson. I knew I was having a hard time sitting and engaging the hindend because I wasn't using my leg properly...I have a slab sided TB too. Lunge lesson helped me find a more equal balance.

I hadn't been on the lunge line for over 10 years....however, it does really allow you to not worry and work and my horse found it more rewarding since he really didn't have to worry either.

If you have a friend you trust, a lunge line lesson wouldn't be a bad thing to help figure yourself out a bit.