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Ames
Aug. 20, 2009, 08:58 AM
to find an OLD school style warmblood with an ammy-safe personality. I swear, the thicker, chunkier warmblood and/or cross just doesn't exist anymore. Unless you go mainly draft, the pickings are super slim. Grrrr. Anyone know of any farms that are actively breeding for the oldies but goodies?

FriesianX
Aug. 20, 2009, 09:34 AM
There are a few of us that are breeding horses with a lot of bone, quiet temperments, and good movement. Unfortunately, the inspection process doesn't support that (those horses don't tend to do as well when inspected) and the buyer market isn't as strong - but don't give up, keep looking, a few of us do like sturdy, quiet, nice moving horses!

Eclectic Horseman
Aug. 20, 2009, 09:40 AM
You may also want to look at Irish Draughts. That breed has kept the characteristics that you describe. They are often crossed with TBs to create Irish Sport Horses for eventing.

EiRide
Aug. 20, 2009, 09:59 AM
Look at Registered Irish Draught horses. No one thinks of them for dressage, just jumping and such, but some are coming in a sporty package--I've scribed several times lately where the horses walking out with the best scores are very rideable RID geldings and mares, and one of the judges said she was looking for one for herself after seeing some in the dressage ring. Certainly in the eventing scene I know many who are routinely in the 20s after dressage.

Check out this stallion and one of his sportier sons as an example:
http://www.blackberryridgefarm.com/stallions/bellman.html
http://www.blackberryridgefarm.com/stallions/hawk.html

I crossed Bellman to my appendix QH mare for an eventing prospect, but my 4 yr old filly has the qualities of a nice dressage ride, also. This is a video of her 5th and 8th rides this spring as she started under saddle after her winter off (she had 30 days in September):
http://www.youtube.com/user/eileengmorgan#play/uploads/11/jBZbrGb5AMM

Not all are going to be good for straight dressage, as that is not the traditional use, but a significant portion would be competitive and along the lines of the old style Warmbloods. I think of this fellow as more of an eventing type, but he is also very like the Warmbloods that used to be more popular (and this one is also the sire of my 11 week old filly, bred for eventing but I expect she will do nicely for dressage also):
http://www.dandelionfarm.com/huntingfield-proud-tim.html

The more traditional you go, the more like an older style warmblood you will get, although you might start to lose the movement to be competitive at the higher levels. I like Foxglen Himself for an old style heavier horse, although he was too heavy to use for my purposes:
http://www.bellwetheririshdraughts.com/breeding.htm

Just a thought for a place you might look for something closer to the old fashioned warm bloods.

HollysHobbies
Aug. 20, 2009, 10:58 AM
Oh you poor thing! Horse shopping is tough. I have one, a selle-francais, very old type wb--big bodied and so very kind...

He is, without a doubt, the best thing that has ever happened to me.

I wish you all the best. Consider the geezers too--many of them get short-changed...they may not be in their prime, but they can be great friends and teachers and still be really competitive. You just have to be a little sensitive with their routine...more turnout time, give them plenty of walk breaks in lessons and maybe a bute after a tough ride. Lots of hack/fun time too! A good Senior Flex supplement. Limit youself to 4 or 5 shows a year...not every weekend.

Fantastic
Aug. 20, 2009, 11:17 AM
I know of some. Sent you a PM!

rabicon
Aug. 20, 2009, 01:15 PM
She has some nice ones
http://www.highpointfarm.org/forsaledressage.htm

They don't have theirs on here but they were at our last show and did really well and are nice
http://www.signature-sporthorses.com/sales.html

This guy is very nice, big old style and nice mover. Calm and beg safe and easy ride. If I needed another horse right now I'd get him in a heartbeat.
http://www.highvalleyhanoverians.net/DonnerFeld.htm

Ames
Aug. 20, 2009, 01:24 PM
rabicon - the DP gelding is yummy! Wonder what bugged him about his canter depart in his video, but his barrel is exactly what I'm looking for - nice and round and something to just drape over :)

I've replied back to those who pM'd me - thanks!

Will look at the other links that were posted as well.

I can be quite timid in the beginning until I get to know a horse, so that level headed personality is what I like. I chuckle, but I actually ask owners' if they woudl put their grandma on the horse - if so, then we may have a winner :) I prefer to push for forward than pray for brakes - I know, it's counterproductive for dressage, but once I get to know them, then I'm good to go :)

Eiride - taht ID stallion is GORGEOUS! Love a liver chestnut!

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 20, 2009, 02:36 PM
to find an OLD school style warmblood with an ammy-safe personality. I swear, the thicker, chunkier warmblood and/or cross just doesn't exist anymore. Unless you go mainly draft, the pickings are super slim. Grrrr. Anyone know of any farms that are actively breeding for the oldies but goodies?

Fairview Horse Center has an older style Dutch WB stallion and offspring with good temperaments. She posts here; you can pm her.

Also, just an FYI, the chunkier physicality does not necessarily mean the horse is more or less amateur friendly. In fact, one reason breeders started moving towards the lighter, more modern type was to improve rideability. In general, it is harder for petite, frequently female, riders to collect and manage a huge clunker of a horse. It takes a really strong core and a lot of leg to do so. Regardless, if you want a bigger chunkier horse, they are out there, too.

And, fwiw, I do think some breeders are moving towards a standard that is too light - but not because I think it is less amateur friendly. I breed primarily for the upper levels and need the horse to have a good engine, power, and sufficient bone to handle the kind of muscle development that level requires. So I like some of the older style attrributes for those reasons. But I can virtually guarantee that a lighter horse will be easier to ride.

Invite
Aug. 20, 2009, 05:37 PM
I am lucky enough to have found an old style WB. Her idea of spooking is stopping to look at the offending item. I bought Roo at 4 months and she has always been super sane. Strangely, her dam is a Thoroughbred and her sire, Candidus, Is by Cor de La Bryere and out of a Landgraf mare, so there is a lot of blood on the sire's side as well. Roo has huge bone and wears a size 87 Rambo. She just turned 4 and I am taking it very slow with her because she is so big and rather physically immature. I am handicapped and Roo seems to realize this. She never takes advantage of me and is easy to handle.

I have ridden lots of horses by Candidus and they all seem to have excellent, willing temperaments. Most have not been as large as my mare, although Candidus does tend to add size. There are a couple of Candidus horses for sale at www.gayleestables.com and there is one at www.cressbrookstables.com Mine could be Candidus' twin. The others are not quite as stamped as Roo. They all appear to be rather old style WBs. I know GayLee's horses are definitely ammy safe!

When I was in remission, I rode quite a few big, old style WBs and WB crosses. They were IDIOTS. They looked sweet and harmless, but they were unpredictable and spooky. I'm sure there are some nice big ones out there for you

Good luck :)

Ames
Aug. 20, 2009, 07:32 PM
hee hee - I don't mind slow, or having to push - I have arthritis in both hips and knees and most thin skinned/sensitive horses hate me - I can't get my leg OFF the horse (which is why I tend to avoid TB's - love them, but I aggravate them :) ).

My horse that I just lost was an oldenburg/quarter horse cross - GREAT combo!

the other reason I like the broader backed/thicker horse, is that it gives me something to sit around. My center o fgraivty is quite high and unless I'm sitting deeply aruond something I have a hard time balancing :(

slc2
Aug. 20, 2009, 07:35 PM
Those 'heavy old fashioned' warmbloods aren't hard to get moving at all - people just don't ride them correctly, they don't separate their aids and don't use their legs. I think the question with that sort, is more whether the rider can handle the amount of motion they have. They tend to have a lot of bounce and a lot of power behind and the good ones tend to require a rider who has a good back.

Those horses were bred to be very forward and active - that they get ruined by incorrect riding, is nottheir fault and doesn't make them a bad choice - IF one rides them properly they are an incredible amount of fun, have a lot of power. It is an awful lotta fun to ride a horse that isn't fearful and nervous, like some of the old style warmbloods. But if you try to ride them in an inappropriate way, yes, problems will arise.

Ames
Aug. 20, 2009, 07:47 PM
nicely put rodawn :) the arthritis isn't debilitating, and the more I ride, the better i feel (which is nice!). The horse I lost could be a total pig when it came to going forward - and I agree, having to push push push was not fun. But once we understood each other, his forward was quite nice. He was also round enough that I had balance. I have widely set apart seat bones - find most narrow twists and even some m/n twists very uncomfortable. sitting on the "couch" is easier for me to ride than sitting on something narrow - if it's narrow, I'm constantly pullingmy hips in to stabilize myself, which makes the arthritis act up - not sure if I'm describing it correctly.

I do agree that perosnlaity and temperment are my key factors - and breed isn't huge with me (as in bloodlines etc) - but the old style wb "look" and appearance is what I need - does that make sense or is it too late at night and I'm speaking gibberish? Very real possibility :)

YankeeLawyer
Aug. 20, 2009, 07:48 PM
Those 'heavy old fashioned' warmbloods aren't hard to get moving at all - people just don't ride them correctly, they don't separate their aids and don't use their legs. I think the question with that sort, is more whether the rider can handle the amount of motion they have. They tend to have a lot of bounce and a lot of power behind and the good ones tend to require a rider who has a good back.

Those horses were bred to be very forward and active - that they get ruined by incorrect riding, is nottheir fault and doesn't make them a bad choice - IF one rides them properly they are an incredible amount of fun, have a lot of power. It is an awful lotta fun to ride a horse that isn't fearful and nervous, like some of the old style warmbloods. But if you try to ride them in an inappropriate way, yes, problems will arise.

I agree with this. I don't equate the older style ones with laziness or think they are generally hard to get moving, though I am sure one can find examples of that.

Ames
Aug. 20, 2009, 07:50 PM
okay - I know nothing of this horse, but his picture is representative of the "type" of horse as far as body goes, that I'm looking for:

http://www.dreamhorse.com/show_horse.php?form_horse_id=1427014&share_this=Y

deep, WIDE heart girth, and rounded barrel. Legs look thikc enough to support his body mass, good neck that goes with the rest of him.

Ames
Aug. 20, 2009, 07:52 PM
I will travel - tell me more!!!!! And yes, you nailed everything right on the money - did you know my old horse??? :)

I grew up in Ontario - haven't been up north in a few years ;)

Ames
Aug. 20, 2009, 08:14 PM
well, you never know - the farthest I've gone is 9 hours though. is it odd to say I also like them 16.2 and under if possible? I'm so picky :(

Ames
Aug. 20, 2009, 08:19 PM
well feel free to send prospects my way - you never know unless you try!

Hiddenacresmi
Aug. 20, 2009, 08:28 PM
I don't have anything for sale right now, but I must tell you my broodmares have the temperment you are looking for. If you let them graze without a muzzle they'll have that round body you look for was well. :>) A couple of my mares actually let the big flies drill them and don't move! They have been tested, awarded the ELITE Hanoverian mare title, have high rideability and are excellent dressage candidates. If you want to buy good quality, obtain the traits you seek and have the opportunity to bond with your next horse until ready to ride, watch for our upcoming foals in 2010. I always sell the colts!

Ames
Aug. 20, 2009, 08:31 PM
hiddenacres - when are your mares going to deliver?

slc2
Aug. 21, 2009, 07:11 AM
"Said lazy brute of a horse"

What you don't understand is that these horses are not lazy. Blaming the horse for the rider's mistakes is very unfair, and it's ignorant, sorry to say.

I;ve seen more than one person take a riding lesson (including myself) and end a whole (horse's) lifetime of 'pushing, pushing, pushing'. It is how they are ridden and trained. It is very simple to fix. No whipping, no dramatics, and it takes about 2 minutes of correct riding.

What people don't get is that these horses are all very sensitive to how they are ridden. People ride them incorrectly, and instead of fighting, running away, freaking out, tossing their head, they just accept it because they have an accepting temperament. And people think they are lazy - it's sad, really. I just shake my head and wonder how people can blame a horse for what they themselves do wrong.

Ames
Aug. 21, 2009, 08:00 AM
slc2 - I think maybe you're misinterpreting my "wish list" - I certainly understand that not all are "lazy" or lack the "go" button. I'm specifically requesting that characteristic though :)

slc2
Aug. 21, 2009, 08:04 AM
Why are you assuming that I am referring to your post or your wishlist at all? I was going by things others said - note I quoted rodawn, who said, 'said lazy beasts'. But this is also something one hears constantly, from many people, not just here. Makes it no less sad, but it's a very common thing to hear. We also have heard the world is flat and illness is caused by demons - a lot of people believed those things too. What 'people believe' is not always what really is.

Ames
Aug. 21, 2009, 08:55 AM
If my assumption was wrong, then I apologize. This is more to gather information as to who breeds for those body types so I know how to search best for the type that fits my needs :)

WBLover
Aug. 21, 2009, 09:09 AM
I had a classicly old-style Hanoverian mare who was NOT lazy, but was still very hard for me to ride. I just didn't have the build for her big barrel. I have short, chunky legs and I just couldn't get them around her table-top of a barrel to sit deep enough to be effective. And I certainly couldn't sit deep enough to be able to sit her bouncy trot. Alas, I loved that mare but we just structurally weren't a good match.

She was sweet as could be, but was not bomb-proof. She had a BIG spook in her, that always came as a surprise because her overall demeanor always seemed so calm and unflappable. But then BANG, she'd catch something out of the corner of her eye and she'd jump sideways so big and fast you didn't know what hit you! But she didn't spook often and for the most part was very enjoyable to ride and certainly a very willing and cooperative girl. She was by Wertherson, out of a Manitu dam. Manitu was VERY old style, down to the heavy bones, big ugly head, and high flat croup.

Here's Fizz's album, including pictures of Wertherson and Manitu:

http://picasaweb.google.com/notasoccermom68/Fizz#

I think she would have been perfect for you, minus the spookiness!! Sadly I lost track of her after I sold her about 7 years ago. I've always wondered what she is doing these days.

Ames
Aug. 21, 2009, 09:41 AM
ah - the sideways spook - that will get me every time :) From the pics she does look like she would have fit - gives me something for my seatbones to envelope :)

rabicon
Aug. 21, 2009, 09:50 AM
rabicon - the DP gelding is yummy! Wonder what bugged him about his canter depart in his video, but his barrel is exactly what I'm looking for - nice and round and something to just drape over :)

I've replied back to those who pM'd me - thanks!

Will look at the other links that were posted as well.

I can be quite timid in the beginning until I get to know a horse, so that level headed personality is what I like. I chuckle, but I actually ask owners' if they woudl put their grandma on the horse - if so, then we may have a winner :) I prefer to push for forward than pray for brakes - I know, it's counterproductive for dressage, but once I get to know them, then I'm good to go :)

Eiride - taht ID stallion is GORGEOUS! Love a liver chestnut!

He's a baby and that was his first show and it was a huge USDF show. I saw him last weekend showing 1st level and he is BRILLIANT. Not a problem. He's like an old pro out there now. Nothing phases him. That was the only show that he's been to (I've been to all the ones he's at) that he had a problem. I think it was first show jitters for him. He's a rock. I'd give them a call. She breeds really really nice horses. For movement, temperment, and ability. I haven't seen one of her babies that have turned out nuts. They are all calm and happy.

Ames
Aug. 21, 2009, 09:53 AM
:) his reaction really didn't bother me - it made me chuckle as my old guy would pull stuff like that occasionally. I can deal with balkiness and general "no, I don't want to" spoiled behavior rather than sudden quick moves. I may have to give a ring :)