Equilox or wedges to lift heel?

[ozjb]

My farrier and the trainer are not in agreement and I am not familiar enough with corrective shoeing to have an informed opinion, so I am hoping the combined wisdom and experience of this forum can help me out here!

A bit of history: Daughter's Thoroughbred doesn't have the world's best feet. He has thin walls and the right fore is lower in the heel than the left fore. Between my inexperience and the former farrier, he has ended up with collapsed heels on the R fore and was lame. So, new farrier comes and puts him in the Natural Balance shoes and the horse isn't lame any more. The heels are all starting to grow (this farrier loves to see heels growing!), but the R fore is still a lot lower that the L.

I took the horse into the vet and had all 4 feet X-rayed, using the cool new digital machine. WOW! It's so nice to actually be able to see what is happening in the hoof. The vet put the measurements on the pictures, made his recommendations as to the degree we need to be lifting and I rang the farrier.

Farrier comes out and doesn't like to use the wedges (trainer really likes them) because he feels there is always going to be some degree of movement between the shoe, the wedge (I assume that's a pad of some sort?) and the hoof. So, he builds up the heel and the wall (for support) with the Equilox stuff. We don't lift the full 5 degrees recommended by the vet as it would be too much all at once, but we did get 3 degrees. Horse is happy, not lame at all. Back feet also need some lift, and he is recommending a shoe with slightly raised heels, but that we would wait until the next shoeing, again the reasoning being not too much all at once. No longer in the Natural Balance shoes with this new approach.

So, I call the trainer with my report and what we have done. Dead silence and then "that's unfortunate." She then proceeds to tell me that the Equilox causes all sorts of problems, that the wedges never move and that my farrier should have lifted the back feet as well as that R front all at once with the wedges. I know she doesn't like my current farrier as she doesn't like the Natural Balance shoes. (I think she is grumpy with me for sacking farrier #1, as this is the guy she uses. The difference being that farrier #1 listens to the trainer and she is knowledgable enough to make him do it right. I wasn't and he knew it and never listened to what I wanted. He would NEVER have worked with the vet to correct anything. But that's another story.)

So, I am back to which is the preferred method? The trainer said that the Americans are brilliant with stuff and have it all worked out with proper shoes, etc. So, I decided to go straight to the source! LOL (We are in Australia. I am an American and she's British.)

Any insight would be great. Thank you SO much,

Jackie in Oz

[BuddyRoo]

What's best is what works best. And on that note, you'll find all manner of opinions.

In MY humble opinion, you pay professionals for their expertise. You've paid for a lameness workup with your vet. I think getting to the vet's recommended 5 degrees would be smart. If you can do that with product A or product B and the horse seems happy either way? Choose as you like.

Or better yet, choose what the professional you're paying recommends.

Your trainer is a trainer. Not a farrier and not a vet.

Your farrier is a farrier, not a vet or a trainer.

And your vet is a vet.

If you feel that your vet is well educated on this issue, then follow the instructions. If you feel that your farrier is competent, then follow his lead as he works towards your vet's instructions.

I'm not trying to minimalize the excellent info that can come from a trainer...just saying that sometimes you have to pick a lane in the horse's best interest.

IMHO...one reason that I might prefer a wedge pad vs the equilox is that sometimes with a pad, you're recruiting more support and protecting the sole. This can be advantageous with a thin soled horse.

The flip side is that putting a pad on means that you cannot properly clean the hoof and you can end up with issues like thrush, contracted frog, etc.

If I could use a product like Equilox to do the buildup needed and leave the sole and frog free and clear? I probably would.

But I'm not a farrier nor do I play one on TV.

[DMK]

i'm pretty much with the farrier, when it comes to correcting a low heel, a pad is a great way NOT to do that. i probably would have just stuck with the natural balance shoes as long as the horse was sound and let good trimming/proper shoeing do the work, but the equilox beats pads. barely.

But I'm also not a farrier nor do I play one on TV. However i have starred in several movies as the owner of the horse with this issue, and i know how pads vs. good trimming/proper shoeing have worked for me. ;)

[PNWjumper]

Interesting timing [for me] for this thread to pop up. I just had this conversation with my farrier! :)

My TB has the same type of feet and we just added wedge pads (a 2 degree pad to his left front and a 3 degree pad to his right front). It definitely made a difference in how he uses himself and I am so happy with how he's going now. He didn't need anything special behind, though.

But as far as the wedging goes.....my vet and my farrier disagreed with how to go about achieving the heel left. My vet wants my farrier to build up the heel with Equilox because she's concerned that the pads could crush his heel and cause more problems. My farrier says that once you start down the road with Equilox you're basically stuck on that path and you're never going to get off of it. So he much prefers starting with the pads and monitoring the situation as you go. He's used Equilox in several situations, but says that he much prefers to start with the pads. Both my vet and farrier are phenomenal talents in their respective areas, and with that being said I trust in my farrier in relation to feet more than my vet.

My TB has now had his pads on for 2 shoeing cycles (he just got his 3rd set of wedged shoes on today). His heels are no worse for the wear and he's still going fantastically. The pads, by the way, are partial pads, and only cover the back of his heel (much like egg bar shoes would). My farrier has had him on a slightly shorter-than-usual cycle to keep an eye on his feet, and we're going back out to a little over 6 weeks this next time.

So now with all of that said, I guess I would stick with whatever your farrier is more comfortable with as long as you trust him with your horse's feet. It doesn't sound like there's a really clear answer to the pad vs. Equilox or else there wouldn't be such a debate between professionals :)

[ozjb]

Thank you so much! I am waiting for the vet to give me his professional opinion and you all have helped a lot. I am fairly grumpy with the trainer and am going to take "Your trainer is a trainer. Not a farrier and not a vet."
as my mantra when she asks me what I am doing about my poor choice. LOL

PNWjumper, we are from Seattle! Son is in Port Orchard and we try to get back at least once every year to 18 months.

[LMH]

I would be more considered with how is going to correct the heels long term-certainly he does not intend to keep the horse padded and wedged?

Or does he? I would ask. If he has no trim plan to correct the hoof, I would find another farrier.

Is he backing up the toes? If you don't know ask him.

[JB]

Was the vet's recommendation based on aligning the pastern bones - is that where the 5* came from?

It sounds like the new farrier is making changes in the right direction, having done the NB shoes to bring the BO back, and has (apparently) gotten some heel height, which must me what he's doing is working, however slowly.

It sounds like he was conservative in lifting the heel with a "wedge" but we don't know what his next steps were to be. It may be that the combination of the 3* plus whatever else he's doing in the way of trimming and shoeing is something he feels will get the angles correct in another short little bit - but 1 more trim? 3? 6 months? That's an important piece of information.

Probably the biggest issue is that one *should*, barring extenuating circumstances, strive to get P1-3 in alignment as quickly as possible. It might not be possible, or desirable, to do in one trim/shoeing because of the other-body repercussions of changing something so much so quickly, and that might have been the farrier's concern - really need to ask him so you can learn (not in a confrontational manner ;)).

But the longer those bones stay mis-aligned, the more changes there are for longer-term damage such as ringbone.

Wedges themselves are not the Devil. Wedges applied long-term often are though for the reasons he stated - they often end up causing more crushing than they help.

[spotmenow]

Okay, the company that makes Natural Balance shoes also makes a wedge shoe AND plastic wedges in varying degrees that can be screwed on/off the shoe as the horse's foot grows.

My mare is navicular and her heels need to come back under her; we tried barefoot for 8 months, because that is the ultimate goal, but just yesterday used a PLR wedge shoe, wedge pad with frog stimulation, Magic cushion, oakum, and the smallest wedges that screw on. Farrier was able to trim her heels back to where they need to be. We got about 4 degrees. She now lands heel first on the right and flat on the left, so we're thinking that we can take the wedges off the right in two weeks and leave them on the left.

Long term, she'll be landing on her heels, which will stimulate blood flow and cause the foot to redistribute itself and eventually we'll have her barefoot and on pea gravel to really get some good frog growth. FYI-I use two farriers-one from WI, one from Maryland (I'm in NY) -they work together whenever possible. Farriers around here suck big time.

[Tom Bloomer]

If you can't trust your professionals to come to an agreement, then you need to find prefessionals that you can trust. Obviously you don't trust your farrier or vet or trainer. Whether or not you SHOULD is irrelivent.

It is unethical for a practitioner to do something they disagree with doing. Your vet and trainer can make any recommendations they wish. But the person whose hands do the work is the one with the LEGAL accountability for the work done.

The minute a practitioner executes a protocol they DISAGREE WITH, they commit MALPRACTICE.

If your vet, trainer, and farrier disagree, and you think the vet or trainer more know more than the farrier, then you should have the vet or trainer shoe the horse. That way they can be accountable for the work done by their own hand.

Some farriers will let others dictate what they do even if they disagree with the protocol. Usually this is a decision made in ignorance. 'nuther words, they don't know that the liability and accountability for the outcome falls on them.

[Tom Bloomer]

Farriers around here suck big time.
Sometimes the grass actually is greener on the other side of the fence. :yes:

[LMH]

The minute a practitioner executes a protocol they DISAGREE WITH, they commit MALPRACTICE.



Actually I think malpractice has more to do with going against accepted or established rules, conduct,etc. not just doing something with which you disagree.

[pasodqueen]

I'm fighting the same thing, one heel completely collapsed on the inside of the right foot. I actually tried the wedge thing for three shoeing, horse developed a corn on that collapsed heel. Now he is really lame and I'm dealing with a corn. New blacksmith fitted horse with a heart bar shoe and relieved the heel totally to allow the corn to heal. On the other foot he fitted him with a Yasha shoe. Apparently it is a new shoe that Big Brown wore that has two different pads attached to it on the rim, one hard and one soft to allow the heel some relief. He glued this shoe on the left hoof and added a few nails for support. Eventually he wants to remove the heart bar and shoe the other foot with the Yasha shoe. I don't know too much about the shoe but it might be something to consider. To make a long story short, horse is now sound but blacksmith told me that this is something that I will have to manage for a looong time. Good luck. I feel your pain with a horse with bad feet!

[LMH]

Good GRIEF why do some farriers make this so complicated with so many appliances?

Sorry dudes but sometimes getting back to basics is more helpful, dontcha think?

[Jumpin_Horses]

WELL.. WELL..... Id thought Id post on this one, because this is a rarity.

ya' all mark this day in your calendar. Im agreeing with Tom's post above :eek: :sadsmile:

If I have my hands on a horse, and Im absolutely SURE of my protocol, and another one is dictated to me (esp. by someone not in my field), Id POLITELY pack up my tools, and bow out.

[BuddyRoo]

WELL.. WELL..... Id thought Id post on this one, because this is a rarity.

ya' all mark this day in your calendar. Im agreeing with Tom's post above :eek: :sadsmile:

If I have my hands on a horse, and Im absolutely SURE of my protocol, and another one is dictated to me (esp. by someone not in my field), Id POLITELY pack up my tools, and bow out.

I wondered how long it was gonna take you to chime in! LOL

Agreed. But the flip side is that if you're going to hire lot of professionals and ask their opinions, you do at some point have to "pick a lane" so to speak.

If oh...Dr. Bowker told you to change by X degrees based on rads but your own two eyes looking at the hoof thought "nah, that's too much/not enough"...would you rely on rads or your own two eyes?

Conundrum?

[Jumpin_Horses]

thats a different scenario

well, of COURSE I would always do whats best based on the rads, my knowledge, and my experience.. and I would take Dr. Bowkers recommendations into consideration but, I would need to see the rads myself and would still have to make a judgement based on the facts as I know them.

Roo - whaddya doin this weekend? wanna mow my pastures for me? :D he he

also
Americans are brilliant with stuff HA HA HA - we almost NEVER get to hear that! HA HA HA! ROTFLMAO

[spotmenow]

Sometimes the grass actually is greener on the other side of the fence. :yes:

Actually Tom, I learned to trim myself because of the lack of good farriers in my area. I don't shoe, though, and I know enough to defer to an expert in cases such as my mare's navicular. Its just too bad that the only two farriers that I trust are out-of-state. However, its been six years and every 6 weeks like clockwork, my farrier from Wisconsin comes back and stays a week to do over 50 horses locally.

Funny, whenever any of the the vets in this area look at the horses done by my farrier, they are very impressed even though they've never heard of him...

[Brian Purrington]

So, I have gone thru this thread a bit and would like to offer some objective input. Please excuse me if I repeat any detail already covered.
My farrier and the trainer are not in agreement and I am not familiar enough with corrective shoeing to have an informed opinion, so I am hoping the combined wisdom and experience of this forum can help me out here!
Farriers and Trainers sometimes have an underlying love/hate relationship and that can blur the lines of reason and sensabilty.
A bit of history: Daughter's Thoroughbred doesn't have the world's best feet. He has thin walls and the right fore is lower in the heel than the left fore. Between my inexperience and the former farrier, he has ended up with collapsed heels on the R fore and was lame. So, new farrier comes and puts him in the Natural Balance shoes and the horse isn't lame any more. The heels are all starting to grow (this farrier loves to see heels growing!), but the R fore is still a lot lower that the L.
Hi/Lo horses are common and quite often letting those heels grow in an effort to make two feet in a pair can bite you in the end. Long heel tends to distort and run under. (collapse)
The NB shoes had some to do with the result you saw because of the mechanical attributes of the placement of the shoe. In laymans terms you got the toe out of the way which allowed the heels to do their job.
I took the horse into the vet and had all 4 feet X-rayed, using the cool new digital machine. WOW! It's so nice to actually be able to see what is happening in the hoof. The vet put the measurements on the pictures, made his recommendations as to the degree we need to be lifting and I rang the farrier.
Often on the low foot in an attempt to "make pairs" some lose sight of the real objective - bony column alignment. Adjustment of the DIPJ entails much more than just raising the heels. We have to support the DIPJ or the BCA can actually be influnenced negatively and more stresses put on the flexor tendon due to the caudal descent between the branches of the shoe applied in attempt to help the situation.
Farrier comes out and doesn't like to use the wedges (trainer really likes them) because he feels there is always going to be some degree of movement between the shoe, the wedge (I assume that's a pad of some sort?) and the hoof. So, he builds up the heel and the wall (for support) with the Equilox stuff. We don't lift the full 5 degrees recommended by the vet as it would be too much all at once, but we did get 3 degrees. Horse is happy, not lame at all. Back feet also need some lift, and he is recommending a shoe with slightly raised heels, but that we would wait until the next shoeing, again the reasoning being not too much all at once. No longer in the Natural Balance shoes with this new approach.
See above info regarding raising heels without frog/DIPJ support.
I am assuming here that here is significant misalignment in the bony column and the vet is attempting to re-align via increasing heel height.
So, I call the trainer with my report and what we have done. Dead silence and then "that's unfortunate." She then proceeds to tell me that the Equilox causes all sorts of problems, that the wedges never move and that my farrier should have lifted the back feet as well as that R front all at once with the wedges. I know she doesn't like my current farrier as she doesn't like the Natural Balance shoes. (I think she is grumpy with me for sacking farrier #1, as this is the guy she uses. The difference being that farrier #1 listens to the trainer and she is knowledgable enough to make him do it right. I wasn't and he knew it and never listened to what I wanted. He would NEVER have worked with the vet to correct anything. But that's another story.)
Much "adoo" over not very much...
I'ts not so much that the equilox causes problems, but it likely won't last that long and is not allowing for support of the DIPJ. A pad/frog support combo will be the same in six weeks as it was the day you put it on AND did I mention it will support the DIPJ....:cool:
So, I am back to which is the preferred method? The trainer said that the Americans are brilliant with stuff and have it all worked out with proper shoes, etc. So, I decided to go straight to the source! LOL (We are in Australia. I am an American and she's British.)
Preferred method to raise angle would be frog support/pad combo. Building up the heels and allowing the back of the foot to fall through the heels will not be good for the foot or the limb.
Any insight would be great. Thank you SO much,
I hope this helps you make your decision.

Regards,

PS: I have noted that some are concerned with thrush being a problem with a pad. If you incorporate a leather pad with magic cushion you will have NO problems. Actually you will probably benifit the foot by doing so.

[eruss]

I've only run across a handful of horses that needed to be wedged that much. The ones I did raise the suspensories started to bulge. I think there is a lot more going on in the foot and leg than we realize.

[Twiliath]

Also take a look at:

How your horse stands with his feet square: Are his shoulders square in front? Are his shoulders level at the top (they're the same height)? If not, the foot is trying to make up for the short or forward shoulder.

How your horse stands to graze or eat off the ground: Which foot is back? The clubby one or the pancakey one? Most likely the clubby foot is back consistently.

Have you had your horse adjusted by a chiropractor? Some chiros know how to correct the shoulders as mentioned above.

[Brian Purrington]

I've only run across a handful of horses that needed to be wedged that much. The ones I did raise the suspensories started to bulge. I think there is a lot more going on in the foot and leg than we realize.

I agree, 5 degrees is a bunch of wedge. I just was pointing out the importance of DIPJ support.

(Five degrees on an average foot is about 1/2 inch of lift.)

I do some theraputic cases that get 4 deg but only fo a short period of time.
And, yeah you could play a tune on the suspensory branches.:o

Regards,

[Tom Bloomer]

Actually I think malpractice has more to do with going against accepted or established rules, conduct,etc. not just doing something with which you disagree.
So ethics and "willful negligence" don't play a role in malpractice?

[kipster]

I let my farrier work with the tools he is comfortable with. My farrier works well with my vet, he ALWAYS gives his opinion on what he thinks is best. So when my vet suggested adding a wedge pad, he did. Equilox was discussed, but he felt he could get the 2 degree correction with a wedge pad. My horse is using himself much better now.

[ozjb]

I am just now getting back to this and want to thank you all again. I have a lot to think about and feel as if I at least know some of the questions to ask, especially about the frog support.

I am happy with my farrier and the vet, who are in agreement. The horse is happy and is standing better, moving better and his body is already starting to change. The difference in his shoulders was what got me to look at his feet more closely.

I have the chiropractor and the "equine body worker" out to our horses on a regular basis, but it was actually the saddle fitter who got me up on the milk crate to look from behind to see how his shoulders looked.

So, I think we are on the right track. Farrier is coming out today again to have a look. The plan is to put the horse on a 4 week schedule for trims, wait for the heel to grow and keep him sound and happy in the mean time. I hope it all works as this is a super little horse and my daughter adores him.