Natural Balance Shoes

[SFrost]

Talk to me about these shoes (aka PLRs). I want thoughts, opinions, experience, whatever. I am interested in what others think of them.

I personally do use them and love them. However, I know that they are not all that popular. I am curious to know how others feel.

[Coppers mom]

We used them for a while, and really liked them. However, the horses started going downhill really fast after about a year. Their feet just looked long, and the horses were tripping all over the place. I'm not sure if the farrier himself caused it, or if the idea that the toe should be over the front of the shoe fostered it, and he just couldn't execute it properly over long periods of time. Either way, everyone starts out loving him, but then a year later their horses look just as bad as ours did.

[Tom Bloomer]

NB or PLRs are no more or less idiot proof than any other bent piece of metal with nail holes in it. ;) None of them come out of the box ready to nail. Other brands of shoes can be modified to achieve the same result. But PLRs don't make up for a lack of application skill, just a little more efficient to shape and apply in some situations.

[eruss]

I believe they are a difficult shoe to fit the toe correctly. If you live in an area where they work or have a horse which holds up in them they are fine. But if you need to change the shape in the toe it is very difficult if not impossible to do. Nail holes are bunch together which can be a problem if the shoe comes off (tearing the hoofwall with it because of bunch up nails)

[spotmenow]

Love them. CoopersMom, that is definitely the farrier's fault, not the fault of the shoe. We are about to apply the wedge PLRs to my navicular mare so that we can drag her heels back and get her to stand on them, stimulating the frog as well. The company that makes the PLRs just came out with this neat system (strap on devices with a dial on the bottom) that allows you to determine the angle that will make the horse most comfortable and plastic wedges that screw onto the shoe and can be adjusted as necessary...the goal is to have her barefoot and comfortable in a year, but right now we can't get her heels under her barefoot and she won't put weight on her heels...

Bottom line, good shoe made by a good company but Tom is right-they are only as good as the farrier who applies them.

[matryoshka]

Farriers need training in applying them correctly. You could PM Patty Stiller and ask her to look in on this thread if she doesn't spot it in a couple of days. I'm a trimmer, not a farrier, so I can't really comment other than that I like that they can put the breakover back under the hoof where it belongs without having to dump or shorten the toe.

[NCSue]

I have NB shoes on one mare. She has a wedge pad on one foot. This is the first time she's been truly comfortable in a long while. Can't say it's because of the shoe. Could be the same farrier would get the same results with a different shoe. To me it starts with the basic trim and having the foot correctly balanced. If you are facing hoof issues I think rads are important.

[Auventera Two]

Farriers need training in applying them correctly. You could PM Patty Stiller and ask her to look in on this thread if she doesn't spot it in a couple of days. I'm a trimmer, not a farrier, so I can't really comment other than that I like that they can put the breakover back under the hoof where it belongs without having to dump or shorten the toe.

Exactly what she said. :)

[ThirdCharm]

Yeah, the toe shouldn't be over the front of the shoe, nor should the toes be long. Sounds like a farrier problem to me too. Sounds like a farrier who said "Hey, I saw this on the internet, let's slap 'em on every single horse in the practice and see what happens". NB shoes aren't appropriate for every horse, they are for a specific purpose, problems arise when farriers do not understand that (or, perhaps, care). The KISS principle applies!

Jennifer

[grayarabpony]

If the toe shouldn't be over the front of the shoe, the toe has to be shortened.

Are NB shoes to be used long term?

[Tom Bloomer]

Yeah, the toe shouldn't be over the front of the shoe . . .
Um, what is the difference whether the toe is rolled or beveled on a barefoot horse or whether it is rolled or beveled on a set under shoe?

If you want the breakover point in the same place, relative to the center of the coffin joint, bare vs. shod then you have to set the shoe under in order to make up for the additional length the shoe adds to the foot.

NB shoes are already shaped to set under on most horses. Most regular old everyday keg shoes need a little more work on the horn to get the same result. Also might not be able to use the toe nail holes on a regular keg shoe.

Shoe set at COA:
http://blackburnforge.com/images/Photo_052909_012.jpg

Toe set under:
http://blackburnforge.com/images/Photo_052909_009.jpg

Can't get NB in that size. ;)

[Tom Bloomer]

Are NB shoes to be used long term?Only when they work long term. :yes:

[grayarabpony]

Toe set under:
http://blackburnforge.com/images/Photo_052909_009.jpg

E yi yi, that's exactly the kind of set that spelled disaster for my horse's heels.

[ex-racer owner]

I have used these on my horse, per my farrier's recommendation. I really liked them and thought that my horse and the other horse in the barn with them moved better. Both horses are TBs with the usual low heels and these really helped to build up more heel for them. Now, I will say that both horses currently are not wearing them, again by the recommendation of farrier. He feels that right now, with the condition of hooves (think stamping at flys, dry, cracking) they are better served in regular shoes with clips. I will use them again when he thinks their hooves can handle them again.

On a side note, with the winter and spring mud, both horses didn't lose a single shoe, and sometimes that mud was thick and deep!:)

[FatPalomino]

I have them on one horse, so far so good.

I saw a friend's mare, that they retired as a broodmare due to navicular (I know...). She was a very well bred, very talented cutting mare. They had to do ET, so they tried a different shoeing set up- NB shoes, etc- and I saw her sound as a dollar winning at cuttings again. It was really cool :)

[LarkspurCO]

E yi yi, that's exactly the kind of set that spelled disaster for my horse's heels.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't you commented many times that Natural Balance shoes ruined your horse's feet?

These shoes you're commenting on (http://blackburnforge.com/images/Photo_052909_009.jpg) are not Natural Balance shoes. What do you see that you don't like?

It looks like a very fine job to me. I'd be happy if it were my horse.

[LarkspurCO]

To the OP: I've had one in NB shoes full-time for four years, except for a period when I used a different farrier who used different shoes (and didn't trim or set them well so my horse went lame!).

I liked the PLRs but they didn't hold up well for the amount and type of riding I do. They wore out before the horse was due for a reset, so I went back to steel.

I have one horse wearing NB hind shoes on her fronts, because they just happen to fit her hoof just right. I've had my other horse in NB front shoes on the hinds, to provide relief from sore stifles. It was a short-term deal.

[grayarabpony]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't you commented many times that Natural Balance shoes ruined your horse's feet?

These shoes you're commenting on (http://blackburnforge.com/images/Photo_052909_009.jpg) are not Natural Balance shoes. What do you see that you don't like?

It looks like a very fine job to me. I'd be happy if it were my horse.

Hmm, I believe I said set.

What don't I like? Not enough support at the heel, which could lead to further crushing/ underrunning. Just a little further back would be better, if the horse won't rip the shoe off.

I guess I've commented "many" times on my experience with NB shoes. Would you like me to do it again? :lol:
I've also said that I didn't think that they were applied correctly, or perhaps I should say, not in the right size. Plus, they tended to slip, which left the heel really hanging over.

I don't think I've ever said NB shoes are flat-out evil. Obviously people have good experiences with them, like you right?

[ThirdCharm]

The main problem I have with toes hanging over the front of the shoe is on rough/hard ground you end up with chunks out of the wall at the toe. Maybe not a huge problem, but if you've dealt with it once you don't want to deal with it again and it is worth the extra time to bevel the toe so that hoof wall isn't hanging over unprotected looking for a rock to split itself on.

YMMV.

Jennifer

[JB]

But, if the toes are so long that you cannot possibly take them back far enough to the correct breakover point, or even close, without going into the sole, AND you are setting NB shoes (or any shoe, really) to HAVE the correct BO point, then the toes will, by default, have to hang over.

[Tom Bloomer]

They don't "have" to hang over.

http://blackburnforge.com/images/Photo_080709_002.jpg

Note stretching in lamina. No sense leaving any leverage sticking out.

Lovely Durasole purple hue . . . :cool:

[rcloisonne]

It looks like a very fine job to me. I'd be happy if it were my horse.
Me too. Nice job, Tom!

[SFrost]

Very interesting replies!

I do have a few more questions...

Why do the make horses move better?
Since I placed them on my guy (on all fours) he moves like a dream. He has even built up a nice back end since they have been placed.

How do you know if your horse "needs" them? What decides between these shoes and regular ones?

My horse went bare foot for years. He needed shoes when I moved him to another state. So, I don't know how he would be in "normal" shoes. I just wondered what it is that can make these shoes so great.

[ThirdCharm]

They make it possible to move the breakover further back on horses with excessive amount of foot in front of the point of the frog and/or underrun/low heels. Sometimes if you just spread a regular shoe and set it back to change the breakover point, it is difficult to get good nail placement.... the front nails are inside the white line, leaving you with just three nail holes to play with and many farriers do not like to use the back nails. The nailholes in the NB shoe are along the sides and the toe is a wide web (for support/protection) with an angled ground surface to it to improve breakover further.

They will make a horse move better if it is having difficulty due to poor breakover and the leverage action of a long toe. If the horse is having hind end problems due to excessive leverage behind, NB shoes would probably help with muscle development in the hind end by making the horse comfortable enough to use itself.

Jennifer

[eruss]

Also might not be able to use the toe nail holes on a regular keg shoe.

If you think about where NB wants the shoe set, there is no reason the toe nails on most any keg shoe can't be used. You just need to reshape the toe along with the rest of the shoe to do it.

[eruss]

[QUOTE=SFrost;4318096]

Why do the make horses move better?

If you stick the shoe out of front of the foot, the horse will have no choice but to lift his foot up higher and get more knee action. But if you start to move them back further you will get a choppy movement.


How do you know if your horse "needs" them? What decides between these shoes and regular ones?

Unless there's some show rules, no horse needs to be shod with distortion. A nb shoe is like any other shoe, some farriers use them and some don't.

[eruss]

They make it possible to move the breakover further back on horses with excessive amount of foot in front of the point of the frog and/or underrun/low heels. Sometimes if you just spread a regular shoe and set it back to change the breakover point, it is difficult to get good nail placement.... the front nails are inside the white line, leaving you with just three nail holes to play with and many farriers do not like to use the back nails. The nailholes in the NB shoe are along the sides and the toe is a wide web (for support/protection) with an angled ground surface to it to improve breakover further.

I think people need to rethink foot shapes and toes in shoes. There should be no "just spread a shoe and set it back" in shaping and fitting shoes. Even shoes which are intended to be perimeter fit (toe nails closer together) can still be blunted between the toe nails and fit so the toe nails are outside the white line (if that's where they need to be).

Many shoes these days have very wide toes because the market demands making everything easier. It's much easier to knock a toe as wide as possible and set it back and then hook the branches in. Problem is that farriers get the idea that since these shoes are coming in these shapes they must be right. All of a sudden everyone starts thinking the toe nails are too close together instead of taking a closer look at there own work.

[LarkspurCO]

If you stick the shoe out of front of the foot, the horse will have no choice but to lift his foot up higher and get more knee action.

With this I agree.

But if you start to move them back further you will get a choppy movement.

I do not agree at all. I have seen good breakover placement (set back) improve the length and quality of stride enough times to know this is just not true.

To elaborate, I've observed in my own horses that setting the breakover back allows more reach in the front and freedom in the shoulder.

The high knee action I've seen with the longer front feet is what I consider "choppy" movement. Choppy with a lot of knee action.

[Shiaway]

I've also observed the same thing, Larkspur. When my horse started going in NB shoes I saw an improvement of his stride. He didn't get choppier at all. Just the opposite. I think the "choppiness" theory is no more than a myth based on the idea that the toe breaks over faster. I think the mechanics are being misunderstood.

[Tom Bloomer]

If you think about where NB wants the shoe setI seldom think about what NB wants.

there is no reason the toe nails on most any keg shoe can't be used. You just need to reshape the toe along with the rest of the shoe to do it.Actually there is a very good reason depending on many factors. Keg shoes differ in profile and nail placement and feet differ in conformation.

If you shape a flat keg shoe (SX8) to broaden the toe and set the leading edge of the web at the toe as your breakover point, and your breakover point is at or behind the WL in the toe, you get this (http://blackburnforge.com/images/Photo_080709_003.jpg) on this foot (http://blackburnforge.com/images/Photo_080709_002.jpg) compared to that (http://blackburnforge.com/images/Photo_012709_008.JPG) on that foot (http://blackburnforge.com/images/Photo_012709_010.JPG).

I can't wait till they make a really nice digital camera with a built-in mobile phone. They can call it a phone camera to differentiate it from a camera phone. :lol:

[JB]

But if you start to move them back further you will get a choppy movement.

There's a difference between setting the shoe back so the BO is in the correct spot, and setting it such that the BO is too far back (or trimming a foot to have a too-short BO).

Moving BO back to the right place is a good thing. But just because a little is good doesn't make more, better. Having the BO too far back can cause gait abnormalities just as having it too far forward.

[Tom Bloomer]

I think the mechanics are being misunderstood.I KNOW the mechanics are being misunderstood. Heck, the whole focus of this thread is on the breakover point in the toe.

The MECHANICS of the situation have to do with the location of the entire base of support. The business end of the base of support starts at the heel bulbs. Impact and load phases of the stride depend on the back half of the foot where there aren't any bones.

The BREAKOVER phase of the stride STARTS with HEEL LIFT and ENDS with TOE OFF. All the toe does is encapsulate and protect P3, provide a pivot point at breakover, and provide a weight bearing fulcrum for ground force leverage to be transmitted from the back half of the foot into the boney column.

The primary interface between gravity and leverage is in the heels. IMPACT and LOADING. Focusing attention on the "appearance" of the toe is not focusing on MECHANICS. It is focusing on aesthetics.

[eruss]

I do not agree at all. I have seen good breakover placement (set back) improve the length and quality of stride enough times to know this is just not true.

To elaborate, I've observed in my own horses that setting the breakover back allows more reach in the front and freedom in the shoulder.

The high knee action I've seen with the longer front feet is what I consider "choppy" movement. Choppy with a lot of knee action.

Can you take some video and show it to everyone? Set well behind p3 and start videoing.

BTW, I was using a nb protocol as my baseline as far as setting forward and backwards.

[eruss]

Actually there is a very good reason depending on many factors. Keg shoes differ in profile and nail placement and feet differ in conformation.

If you shape a flat keg shoe (SX8) to broaden the toe and set the leading edge of the web at the toe as your breakover point, and your breakover point is at or behind the WL in the toe, you get this (http://blackburnforge.com/images/Photo_080709_003.jpg) on this foot (http://blackburnforge.com/images/Photo_080709_002.jpg) compared to that (http://blackburnforge.com/images/Photo_012709_008.JPG) on that foot (http://blackburnforge.com/images/Photo_012709_010.JPG).

I can't wait till they make a really nice digital camera with a built-in mobile phone. They can call it a phone camera to differentiate it from a camera phone. :lol:

You need to think about the topic at hand (NB) and anatomy, not conformation. Not that things don't change horse to horse, I think we all know everything doesn't work the same on every horse.

Cell phone camera? No worries Tom, I happen to have a camera ready to go in my truck and horses to shoe today. I'll be happy to take a few pics to demonstrate what it is I'm talking about. :)

[Auventera Two]

I KNOW the mechanics are being misunderstood. Heck, the whole focus of this thread is on the breakover point in the toe.

The MECHANICS of the situation have to do with the location of the entire base of support. The business end of the base of support starts at the heel bulbs. Impact and load phases of the stride depend on the back half of the foot where there aren't any bones.

The BREAKOVER phase of the stride STARTS with HEEL LIFT and ENDS with TOE OFF. All the toe does is encapsulate and protect P3, provide a pivot point at breakover, and provide a weight bearing fulcrum for ground force leverage to be transmitted from the back half of the foot into the boney column.

The primary interface between gravity and leverage is in the heels. IMPACT and LOADING. Focusing attention on the "appearance" of the toe is not focusing on MECHANICS. It is focusing on aesthetics.

THANK YOU.

This is SUCH an elementary basic, so why don't so many farriers/trimmers/owners "get it?" Schools don't teach this, or what?

Breakover is not where the toe is trimmed. Breakover is an entire process.

[Auventera Two]

But if you start to move them back further you will get a choppy movement.

Not true. Two of my horses were shod in NBs at various times and never had choppy movement. There is such a thing as setting a shoe too far back, of course, but any knowledgeable farrier should have an understanding of desirable shoe placement.

[eruss]

Not true. Two of my horses were shod in NBs at various times and never had choppy movement. There is such a thing as setting a shoe too far back, of course, but any knowledgeable farrier should have an understanding of desirable shoe placement.

I don't know how to explain it any better than I already did. NB shoe placement was my baseline. They move well with breakover at that point. If you start moving breakover behind that point, it does not get better but worse.

It's not only knowledge of where to place a shoe, it's not always the easiest thing in the world to get a good shoe fit and placement on a distorted foot.

[imapepper]

I have them on one horse, so far so good.

I saw a friend's mare, that they retired as a broodmare due to navicular (I know...). She was a very well bred, very talented cutting mare. They had to do ET, so they tried a different shoeing set up- NB shoes, etc- and I saw her sound as a dollar winning at cuttings again. It was really cool :)

Mine isn't sound as a dollar...but the NBS shoes have been keeping him serviceably sound (trail rides, lower level dressage, crossrails) for the last 10 years. He was diagonsed navicular. X rays didn't look bad but he blocked out like a navicular horse. Up until recently, he hasn't needed anything else to keep him comfy. He did just turn 24 though and is now stiff starting out and gets sore if not worked....so I am guessing that arthritis is starting to kick in.

But...again....my farrier is very good and continually trys to keep updated on everything going on and attends regular clinics. I think without my farrier, this horse would have been a pasture pet a long time ago :)

[Parrotnutz]

Let me start by saying "I am not a farrier nore do I play one on TV" :)

Ok.....2 years ago NB shoes were recommended to me by the farrier I was using where I moved my horses to. My Mare's feet improved over time and looked great and she moved well in them....then I moved back to the farm I was at prior. The farrier there did not like NB shoes but kept them on her. He applied them a little differently than other farrier. The results were not the same.

My point.....IMHO whatever shoe is on your horse is only as good as the farrier applying it. Different farriers have different preferences and I always remember....No Hoof No Horse.

I know enough to pick a good farrier and recognise a medicore one, but not enough to sit here and type out about break overs, etc. I always communicate with my farrier and defer to his expertise when I have faith in who I am working with. I am very fortunate to be working with an awesome farrier now.....oe I had worked with in the past who doesn't normally come to my area but does, for me. I Thank Him repeatedly......<very big grin here>

PS: Awesome shoe jobs....if I ever move to DEL. I will make sure I am in your area, Tom <grin>

[matryoshka]

I do find it interesting that we refer to BO as being a point at the toe when it's the heel lift that starts the process. Don't remember where I learned that, but it was back in the beginning of my hoof education.

Still, where we place the leading edge of the toe affects when the heel lifts during the stride, so it is related.

I agree that too many neglect the heel as far as impact and loading go. If they didn't, we wouldn't see as many shoes (and trims) with the heel so far forward. That's bad for the whole leg, not just because the heels want to crush. This may also be why NB shoes are having success with horses who have poor hoof form. When the breakover is put at the sweet spot, perhaps the branches extend far enough back for the majority of hooves that are the same width (drives the selection of shoe size) to provide good support. When shaping keg shoes, if one widens the toe much, the branches get shorter. It would be relatively easy when concentrating on the toes to neglect the length of the shoe at the heel.

So while we are all focusing on the where the NB shoe puts the breakover, perhaps the design of the shoe is quietly taking care of the heel support, too. I know Patty has shown pics of heels that decontracted while in NB shoes. That's the first I'd seen heels reversing contraction while staying shod. Admittedly, I've only been paying attention for the past 5 years, but I've seen plenty of heels contract in shoes and none dectrontrac while shod. Except the ones she's shown, and she says it happens often for her.

[LarkspurCO]

Can you take some video and show it to everyone? Set well behind p3 and start videoing.

You're making the claim. You make the video.;)

BTW, I was using a nb protocol as my baseline as far as setting forward and backwards.


Now that you've clarified, I can envision where setting B/O too far behind P3 could lead to unpredictable results.

[JB]

I do find it interesting that we refer to BO as being a point at the toe when it's the heel lift that starts the process. Don't remember where I learned that, but it was back in the beginning of my hoof education.

Still, where we place the leading edge of the toe affects when the heel lifts during the stride, so it is related.

Yes, thank you for putting those 2 pieces together - I was going to when reading your first paragraph, then thankfully read the 2nd :D

The whole breakover process is indeed a process, but there is a pivot point around which it all hinges. The heels are indeed the first thing to come off the ground. But if the pivot point, what many of us call the "point of breakover", is too far forward, the heel stays on the ground longer, which strains various tendons, strains the shoulder, and because of the delay, the leg usually has to move more quickly to come forward again to stay ahead of the horse. Often there is more knee/hock action as well - really, it IS like walking in clown shoes. The leg has to come higher to allow ground clearance for the long toe.

[JB]

Now that you've clarified, I can envision where setting B/O too far behind P3 could lead to unpredictable results.
Yes, VERY important clarification there ;)

I liken toes that are too short to watching my cat walk. She's a rescue (literally, in the woods behind a movie theater) and she is declawed. Not only in front, but behind :eek: Now, she COULD have been born that way, but... Doesn't matter.

The point is, she cannot take long, slinky, sexy kitty strides, because she has no last digit by which to push off. She walks around with short dinky strides.

Chop the toes off too short on a hoof, and you'll get the same thing.

It's the same effect as walking in deep beach sand that has no push-back.

[rcloisonne]

Yes, VERY important clarification there ;)

I liken toes that are too short to watching my cat walk. She's a rescue (literally, in the woods behind a movie theater) and she is declawed. Not only in front, but behind :eek: Now, she COULD have been born that way, but... Doesn't matter.

The point is, she cannot take long, slinky, sexy kitty strides, because she has no last digit by which to push off. She walks around with short dinky strides.

Chop the toes off too short on a hoof, and you'll get the same thing.

It's the same effect as walking in deep beach sand that has no push-back.
JB, I'm not understanding your analogy. When cats move across a flat surface their claws are in a retracted state. How does having none affect their movement one way or another unless climbing were involved? Same with people. Our toe nails have very little to do with quality of movement, length of stride, etc..

A horse, on the other hand, is a whole nother ball of wax. ;)

[SFrost]

Because when cats are declawed they cut off the first knuckle. If you had all your toes chopped off at the first knuckle you would have a difficult time walking too.

I very much appreciate all the replies on the NB shoes. I am learning a lot!

[eruss]

[QUOTE=LarkspurCO;4319205]You're making the claim. You make the video.;)

LOL! I've already seen the video, but maybe I'll get around to shaping up a whole host of shoe with different fits and breakover this winter and video it and run it through gait analysis.


Now that you've clarified, I can envision where setting B/O too far behind P3 could lead to unpredictable results.

It's a NB thread and of course I always stay of topic! ;)

[rcloisonne]

Because when cats are declawed they cut off the first knuckle.
I didn't know that. Wow. I've never owned a declawed cat but those I've seen looked to have normal feet. After reading this I'm just appalled!

http://www.declawing.com/htmls/declawing.htm

[eruss]

I'll be happy to take a few pics to demonstrate what it is I'm talking about. :)

Tom I know your sitting around waiting on pics tonight! :) Unfortunately I couldn't get my helper out of bed this morning, he left the hoof stand at the last stop, he forgot to stock the truck, you know how it goes. I only got pics of one foot and I don't think it was a good example because it was pretty simple to get the toe nails on this one. Hopefully tomorrow will be a better day and I can find one that would be considered difficult to get the toe nails in with a standard keg.

[matryoshka]

[quote]LOL! I've already seen the video, but maybe I'll get around to shaping up a whole host of shoe with different fits and breakover this winter and video it and run it through gait analysis. This would be interesting, especially if you had rads.

[eruss]

[quote=eruss;4320289]This would be interesting, especially if you had rads.

When I get around to doing it I can get whatever I need. Why would you want xrays, just to see where the shoe was placed and where breakover was? While it would be simple to get xrays with each shoe. Filming for gait analysis takes a lot of time and I wouldn't want to waste the vets entire day.

[matryoshka]

When I get around to doing it I can get whatever I need. Why would you want xrays, just to see where the shoe was placed and where breakover was? While it would be simple to get xrays with each shoe. Filming for gait analysis takes a lot of time and I wouldn't want to waste the vets entire day.
Just to see how far forward the dorsal wall is compared to the coffin bone--to determine how forward the feet are to start with. If you mark the apex of the frog, we can figure out where the tip of the shoe is compared to the frog. This'll just help when viewing the photos. It's not necessary, but hoof distortion can be misleading, and rads will show us how much, if any, distortion is present before you shoe.

It seems to me the major benefit of shoes is the ability to put the weight-bearing surface where the horse needs it mechanically despite hoof distortions. We trimmers have to trim and wait for good growth, so it takes time to grow out distortions and have the foot optimized mechanically. Shoes can accomplish this faster. Don't know how well/fast distortions grow out once you put a shoe on.

[JB]

I didn't know that. Wow. I've never owned a declawed cat but those I've seen looked to have normal feet. After reading this I'm just appalled!

http://www.declawing.com/htmls/declawing.htm
Sad huh :no:

At first glance, a declawed foot does look normal, because the skin and hair are still there. But it's "empty" inside at the end. Next time you see one, and s/he'll let you, take a good feel. It's akin to a glove that has the fingers too long ;)

[Tom Bloomer]

THANK YOU.

This is SUCH an elementary basic, so why don't so many farriers/trimmers/owners "get it?" Schools don't teach this, or what?

Breakover is not where the toe is trimmed. Breakover is an entire process.
I don't know what is "learned" in the schools. I was taught and learned the five phases of the stride and the breakdown of each phase on my first day in school. What is not exaplained very well, if at all, is the mechanics of how trimming and shoe placement affect ground forces reacting on the weight bearing action of the foot.

My considered opinion is that what is taught is mostly cook book carpentry. That goes for all the schools. They teach a recipie not how to cook.

If you want hoof care people to understand biomechanics, make them take two semesters of physics with LAB WORK before you teach them how to trim and shoe horses. At least then a few of them might learn to think for themselves instead of following whatever recipie they were taught - which of course must be the right recipie because it was taught to THEM.

[Tom Bloomer]

Hopefully tomorrow will be a better day and I can find one that would be considered difficult to get the toe nails in with a standard keg.I could have gotten toe nails in the one I posted where I left them out. ;) The question is, why did I leave them out? :cool:

[matryoshka]

If you want hoof care people to understand biomechanics, make them take two semesters of physics with LAB WORK before you teach them how to trim and shoe horses. At least then a few of them might learn to think for themselves instead of following whatever recipie they were taught - which of course must be the right recipie because it was taught to THEM.Did that, plus hydraulics. Second semester was electricity and magnetism, so I doubt it applies to feet much. :D

[Tom Bloomer]

It's the same effect as walking in deep beach sand that has no push-back.
Having attempted this in swimming flippers and barefoot, I tend to favor walking in deep sand with a shorter toe. YMMV. ;)

[eruss]

I could have gotten toe nails in the one I posted where I left them out. ;) The question is, why did I leave them out? :cool:

I'm not all that into mysteries. Why you drive or not drive nails is of no importance to me as long as they could have been driven if necessary.

[JB]

Having attempted this in swimming flippers and barefoot, I tend to favor walking in deep sand with a shorter toe. YMMV. ;)

:yes::yes:

[Tom Bloomer]

Did that, plus hydraulics. Second semester was electricity and magnetism, so I doubt it applies to feet much. :DHydraulics is helpful in understanding the blood circulation in the foot.

"Magnet therapy" comes in very handy when you spill horseshoeing nails on the ground. :lol:

[JB]

Those who want/need to understand this sort of thing need to take a course/courses in pulleys and levers, though the basics of force and mass and acceleration are helpful too ;)

[matryoshka]

Pulleys and levers were part of the first semester of physics, as I recall. This was over 25 years ago, so my recall is rusty.* Levers are critical to understanding feet, as is the concept of torque. Rooney's lameness book covers this stuff pretty well. A basic understanding of these principles helps us come up with a working theoretical model of hooves, so that we can know what needs to be done for an individual horse. I don't do any free-body diagrams when trimming. ;)

For good shoeing, one needs an even firmer understanding, since a farrier can drastically change the location, length, and angle of levers when applying a shoe. This is going to change how the limb travels during the gait.

What I like about the NB protocol is that Dave Ducket tried to take this stuff into account when designing his shoe, and Gene Ovnicek has incorporated it into his protocol. I know there has been argument about the use of these shoes on the hind feet, since they play a somewhat different role than the fronts.

*p.s. Now I remember that pulleys were part of the lab work in the first semester. We kept adding more pulleys, changing the size of the pulleys, and measuring forces.

[Tom Bloomer]

I'm not all that into mysteries. Why you drive or not drive nails is of no importance to me as long as they could have been driven if necessary.
They would have been driven through the sole. It probably wouldn't have quicked the horse because the sole and lamina in the toe is stretched considerably.

OTOH, there is no sole contact between the pillars as the wall in that area has been substantially thinned and brought back into alignment with P3. So using toe nails would defeat the purpose of relieving the toe of weight bearing and leverage forces.

My original point had to do with the distance around the perimeter of the stock between the toe nails. On an NB shoe this distance is longer than it is on similar sized keg shoes. When you broaden the toe on a keg shoe, you use up some of that distance going around the radius of the "corners" created in forging the bends in the toe at each pillar. On a lot of feet, when you wind up with a breakover point behind the toe nail holes (http://blackburnforge.com/images/File0046.jpg), the holes themselves are inside the WL (http://blackburnforge.com/images/BarShoeEqui-Pak.jpg). A way around this is to use a size larger shoe and then cut the heels.

[Tom Bloomer]

What I like about the NB protocol is that Gene Ovnicek tried to take this stuff into account when designing his shoe.
Actually the heavy lifting on the shoe design was done by Dave Duckett, FWCF. That's why Ducektt gets royalty checks every 6 months.

[matryoshka]

I stand corrected. Thanks. Will fix the original post.

[Tom Bloomer]

I don't do any free-body diagrams when trimming. ;)Naaah, I just "imagine" a gelding named "Norman" standing on dirt like this (http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/GBSSCI/PHYS/Class/newtlaws/u2l2c2.gif). :lol:

[matryoshka]

Naaah, I just "imagine" a gelding named "Norman" standing on dirt like this (http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/GBSSCI/PHYS/Class/newtlaws/u2l2c2.gif). :lol:Whatever works.

[eruss]

They would have been driven through the sole. It probably wouldn't have quicked the horse because the sole and lamina in the toe is stretched considerably.

Nothing wrong with driving nails through the sole if it's where the white line would normally be.

OTOH, there is no sole contact between the pillars as the wall in that area has been substantially thinned and brought back into alignment with P3. So using toe nails would defeat the purpose of relieving the toe of weight bearing and leverage forces.

Then again, having some sole contact could help stabilize the wall which was over thinned in an attempt to make the foot look nicer. Plus it may help the rest of the foot from becoming over loaded from floating the toe.

My original point had to do with the distance around the perimeter of the stock between the toe nails. On an NB shoe this distance is longer than it is on similar sized keg shoes. When you broaden the toe on a keg shoe, you use up some of that distance going around the radius of the "corners" created in forging the bends in the toe at each pillar. On a lot of feet, when you wind up with a breakover point behind the toe nail holes (http://blackburnforge.com/images/File0046.jpg), the holes themselves are inside the WL (http://blackburnforge.com/images/BarShoeEqui-Pak.jpg). A way around this is to use a size larger shoe and then cut the heels.

I hear what you are saying and used to think the same way. But, if you think about where most people are trying to fit shoes to, they're aren't setting them very far behind where the nondistorted foot would be in the first place. Even NB doesn't set them very far behind the nondistorted foot.

So if you're fitting a shoe about how duckett would, then there are no toe corners. These "false" toe corners are what make people unable to use the toe nails in some keg shoes. If you look at a shoe like an sx8, the square (blunt) is too straight for too long (toe too wide). If you put a little bit of roundness into the toe (still leaving the center of the toe pretty blunt) and then pull (straighten) the toe nails out. You'll start to see that you're toe nails are actually wider than if you just left the wide toe. Once you fix your toe up a little bit you're branches will start to flow very easily with no harsh bend in them. And you won't have to move up a shoe size to feel comfortable using the toe nails.

If you get a chance to see Duckett, Trnka, Koons..... work and listen to what the have to say, then start to break it down. All of this stuff eventually starts to fall into place.

[Tom Bloomer]

If you get a chance to see Duckett, Trnka, Koons..... work and listen to what the have to say, then start to break it down. All of this stuff eventually starts to fall into place.
Uh huh. I only talk to Duckett about once a week. :lol:

You're a funny guy.

Where is the location of the ideal breakover point according to Mr. Duckett's theory of biomechanics?

[eruss]

Uh huh. I only talk to Duckett about once a week. :lol:



So you've seen his work? Last I saw he didn't have any problems with nails.

[eruss]

Uh huh. I only talk to Duckett about once a week. :lol:

And Koons and Trnka and anyone else? Talk is not doing! Talk is for the internet.



Where is the location of the ideal breakover point according to Mr. Duckett's theory of biomechanics?

Doesn't really matter does it. If you take you're caliper from the inside, around the toe, to the outside, where are these corners you were talking about earlier? Doing and talking is not the same thing Tom. :no:

[Patty Stiller]

I have been really busy but I will just touch quickly on several points I saw raised here.
1) NB shoes are not 'set back' from anything. They are set AROUND a very specific point anatomically. If the toe of the foot is distorted, there will be so varying amounts of toe overhanging the hoof .If there is no distortion, there will not be toe hanging over the shoes.
2) Any overhanging toe distortion will NOT chip or break if it is properly dressed and rounded off as per the NB instructions.
3) There are many types of shoes used to apply Natural Balance principles, sometimes not NB shoes. This is to accommodate the variety of foot shapes as well as the discipline of the horse, any pathologies being treated if it is a lameness case, the environment etc.
4) NB shoes are used by trained NB farriers for VERY long term with no ill effects . the reason is that as long as the farrier follows the recommended application protocol every time, the NB shoeing will change to accommodate any foot changes, and foot does not develop any detrimental effects.

Please go to the website for natural balance at www.nbhoofcare.com, for more details and facts from the original source.
Most of your questions should be answered there. There is a free tutorial and a FAQ's page you should find helpful.

[eruss]

[QUOTE=Patty Stiller;4323082]
3) There are many types of shoes used to apply Natural Balance principles, sometimes not NB shoes. This is to accommodate the variety of foot shapes

Are the shoes difficult to shape?

as well as the discipline of the horse,

Huh? Does something change in the protocol from discipline to discipline?


the NB shoeing will change to accommodate any foot changes, and foot does not develop any detrimental effects.

NB changes?

[LarkspurCO]

[QUOTE]Huh? Does something change in the protocol from discipline to discipline?

Well, one of my horses can be very UN-disciplined, so the protocol is changed to "get the shoe nailed on as fast as you can before what's left of his brains leaks out his ears.":winkgrin:

[Patty Stiller]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patty Stiller
3) There are many types of shoes used to apply Natural Balance principles, sometimes not NB shoes. This is to accommodate the variety of foot shapes

[QUOTE]Are the shoes difficult to shape? Hello Eric.....;)No the shoes are not difficult to shape, as long as they are fit the way they are supposed to be fit .On the other hand, If a farrier tries to fit them in a manner other than fitting to NB mapping, or on a foot not trimmed to NB guidelines, then he/he will find it difficult.

Quote:
as well as the discipline of the horse,

Huh? Does something change in the protocol from discipline to discipline?As in ANY good shoeing the SHOES and materials used will change depending on the discipline, the NB is a GUIDELINE to build a solid,balanced base for a shoeing, it is not a specific shoe, or the law.

Quote:
the NB shoeing will change to accommodate any foot changes, and foot does not develop any detrimental effects.

NB changes?"shoeing" as in: shoe material, shoe type ,added (or eliminated) hardware, sole support materials etc.In other words, FOR EXAMPLE, perhaps a horse who at first needed aluminum NB, rails, frog support pads and impression material may later on be just fine in steel NB and nothing else.
Hope that is more clear..

[lalahartma1]

I have been really busy but I will just touch quickly on several points I saw raised here.
1) NB shoes are not 'set back' from anything. They are set AROUND a very specific point anatomically. If the toe of the foot is distorted, there will be so varying amounts of toe overhanging the hoof .If there is no distortion, there will not be toe hanging over the shoes.
2) Any overhanging toe distortion will NOT chip or break if it is properly dressed and rounded off as per the NB instructions.
3) There are many types of shoes used to apply Natural Balance principles, sometimes not NB shoes. This is to accommodate the variety of foot shapes as well as the discipline of the horse, any pathologies being treated if it is a lameness case, the environment etc.
4) NB shoes are used by trained NB farriers for VERY long term with no ill effects . the reason is that as long as the farrier follows the recommended application protocol every time, the NB shoeing will change to accommodate any foot changes, and foot does not develop any detrimental effects.

Please go to the website for natural balance at www.nbhoofcare.com, for more details and facts from the original source.
Most of your questions should be answered there. There is a free tutorial and a FAQ's page you should find helpful.

Thanks, Patty! This will help all of us. :)