Leave the course after elimination.

[Foxtrot's]

So I had the bogey jump to judge this w/e. It was the sunken road and at the Jr. Pre-training level it caused all sorts of grief. I am experienced so that is why I was given the jump and I clearly know where my line in the sand is regarding stops, setting a foot back, etc.

But it was so sad to have to give 20, 40 and E's to so many riders. Poor little things, tears dropping onto their horse's manes and having to be comforted when told they got the big E.
There does not seem to any easy way to deliver the verdict. Used to be a rider could continue unless pulled for unsafe riding.

I hate that rule that says after an elimination the rider has to walk back and not continue.
It was only a drop, not a dangerous fence and almost all the horses eventually dropped down after a stop or two. However it was fence 5 AB and their day was over. Many had come considerable distance and paid a lot of money for the experience.

I'm over it now, but it was probably harder on me than them. BTW, I am on the lenient side in marking at that level (Srs. and Training is a different thing and actually easier to judge.It is more black and white).

I stand by all my decisions and officials agreed - but it is a hard rule. We know that in a sportsmanlike manner you go back and school the question so you are more prepared next time, that there will be a next time, and that it takes time to develop an event horse that has seen one of every kind of jump eventually - but they were just little youngies. We also know that the object of sport is to teach character and put steel in your spine, etc.

[Ibex]

Hmmmm. I stood by that fence for a good chunk of that division (we had a barn kid in it) and I thought it looked like a fair question, but you're right, a lot of stops. These aren't little kids - it was mostly teenagers who should be able to deal with it by now.

After seeing another barn kid helped back on a horse with a concussion at the same HT two years ago, and then subsequently gallop around like an idiot looking for her fence (she remembers none of this... we were standing on the top of the hill while the organizer was screaming over the radio to stop her), I think leaving the course after elimination is a good thing whether for falls, refusals, whatever. Who knows what caused the stop - it could be a genuine issue, training or otherwise.

Management was nice enough to let riders do Stadium on Sunday, even the ones with a fall provided they had checked in and were cleared to go.

[Gry2Yng]

IIRC, you have always had to walk home after being eliminated. I don't know any horse trials that let you continue to jump around as an eliminated competitor.

[fanfayre]

Hi, Foxtrot's'
didn't get a chance to say hi and thanks for giving up a day to volunteer to jump judge- I had two horse going in the lower divisions and helped my training level friend with her horse and the one she catch-rode. I didn't envy you your job. The person I trailered over was in the PT champs and she got caught w/ 2 stops, so I know you knew your job.
Gry: It's a new rule up here in the last few (6? 8?) years. When I started many moons ago, my first-ever event was a now-defunct course in Ontario. I got eliminated at at least 6 of the fences and had at least one stop at all of the rest except 2 jumps, but I crossed the finish line. I'm probably the reason that rule was enacted; I was probably out on course for 20 minutes in a 4 minute course:o.

[subk]

IIRC, you have always had to walk home after being eliminated. I don't know any horse trials that let you continue to jump around as an eliminated competitor.
I believe the USEA is currently being sued by the parents of a girl who was killed on course after she hadn't pulled up after being Eliminated.

[deltawave]

The rule has always been the same. The only recent modification is fall = elimination.

If eventing is done for fun, a mere "E" ought not to cause anything more than superficial heartbreak. Yup, it stinks. But if it's the worst thing that happens to us in our horsey (or life) endeavors we ought to count our blessings. :)

[Gry2Yng]

My bad. I hardly ever look to see where the OP is located.

[Firefox]

I believe the USEA is currently being sued by the parents of a girl who was killed on course after she hadn't pulled up after being Eliminated.

but that wasnt for three stops at one fence, but the four or five which ever it is on course and harder to get one stopped when there maybe no communication between fence judges

[ohhthatgirl]

Yea, it sucks to go back on the "walk of shame," but its not the end all of everything. You can always go back and school over the question after the event ends.

[Foxtrot's]

In Canada the walk off course after elimination is relatively recent.

I actually asked if they could be offered the chance to school the jump after the event but had to leave to go to a fundraiser, so do not know if the officials/organizers let them go out afterwards - it is by no means the norm to offer the chance, but sometimes they do here.

[Foxtrot's]

Fanfayre - I'm sorry I did not get to see you - I had to leave so didn't even see your round.
I hung around on Sunday a bit, too, but still missed several people I was lookig for. With two horses and helping someone else, your time is pretty much taken up anyway.

Sorry to your friend that I had to ding her - hope she will speak to me next time!!!

I wasn't trying to debate the rights and wrongs - just that in this litigious society organizers have to be so careful regarding negligence. The judges meetings make that very clear. I'm glad I came through the grass roots levels oh so many years ago - when Training was the lowest level.

[hb]

It hasn't always been the rule in the States. Being required to walk off the course after elimination was a new rule back in the early '90's when I was eventing. I can't remember if you were allowed to continue on prior, or just take a courtesy fence, because I hadn't gotten the big E until after the rule, I think the first year of the rule. That was also before elimination for a cumulative number of stops on course. I had an acquaintance who was known for having two stops each at half the fences.

[msghook]

HB, you're wrong. It was a rule when I first got my TD's license in 1976. It just wasn't often enforced. There weren't a lot of us out there back then and we tended to let people continue because it wasn't an issue.

Malcolm

[OverandOnward]

I agree, I would also like to see riders be able to finish the course. Especially if all or most of the issue was at just one obstacle.

Often if they can go on both rider and horse improve over the rest of the course. Rider more determined, gets to correct mistakes. Horse recovers confidence. They go home with far more positives than negatives.

When they must leave the course nothing more is learned. The day ends on a bad point, the issue isn't closed.

Course control could have jump judges keep an eye on progress and pull them off later if the situation is not improving. A one-more-stop-and-out would help keep things reasonable. And if the Big E came from 4 stops at 4 different jumps I'd say that's enough for the day.

Even most falls I've seen are pretty benign. If the rider missed her balance and just slipped off to land on her feet, if she wants to get back on, correct her mistakes and finish, imo that is the best thing that could happen. Even a fairly painless body contact with the ground can absolutely go on in most cases.

I know events don't want to be assigned any responsibility for deciding if riders are fit to continue after falls, I do understand. But especially at the low levels most are more "slide-off's" and no real harm done, rider is still game and knows what went wrong, and horse needs to do it over, correctly.

[enjoytheride]

I think it really depends on the facility. A recognized show with a few hundred people competing will pull a rider off after elimination. Radio control lisn't always perfect and it can take a while before word is reached that a rider that has been eliminated continues to have safety issues. On the other hand, an unrecognized show at a small facility with small for the level fences might let a rider continue around for the schooling experience.

[Catalina]

I was jump judging recently when a Training rider jumped the Prelim fence instead of the Training one. I radioed it in that she had jumped the wrong one, but it took a couple of fences before she was pulled up because everyone wanted to make sure that I was right and I saw her jump the wrong fence. I felt bad for her because she was having a lovely round and was by no means riding dangerously or having any issues. I know it is a logistic nightmare, but it seems like a rider should be allowed to continue if they missed a jump or jumped the incorrect one (but still get the big E).

[OverandOnward]

I agree with Catalina. As a rider I'd rather finish in sublime ignorance and get the bad news at the end. I can handle that. :)

[advmom]

of course everyone would rather have the chance to "finish" the course even if you have been given the big "E".
However the sport can ill afford riders the luxury of schooling in this instance.
The jump judge can hardly be responsible for making the decision about who is safe to carry on and who isn't and by the time the GJ could make that decision the rider could be over several more jumps or worse yet suffer a terrible fall with catastrophic results.
Just like what happened in California, when the rider should have been stopped

[Jazzy Lady]

It would be nice if you could continue if you had a technical elimination like missing a fence... but at the same time, you messed up huge.

If you get disqualified in any other sport, you don't get to continue. If you get e'd in dressage, you have to leave the ring... even if it's not because your horse was threatening to flip over on you and kill all the spectators. You messed up in one way or another. It's time to leave.

Does it suck BIG TIME. Absolutely. But it's part of sports and it's part of life. Things like this at a young age teach you how to accept things graciously and learn when to call it a day. If we don't learn that when it's not going well, you walk off the course and you get to continue even if you're having a bad go, some people will never learn when to walk off the course on their own if they are having a bad day, or when to wd if the course is beyond your limitations.

When your horse is telling you know, for whatever reason, then it's time to listen. If you miss a fence and have a major brain fart, then yes, that's unfortunate, but maybe pay more attention next time. Hopefully you won't repeat the same mistake.

[fooler]

It would be nice if you could continue if you had a technical elimination like missing a fence... but at the same time, you messed up huge.

If you get disqualified in any other sport, you don't get to continue. If you get e'd in dressage, you have to leave the ring... even if it's not because your horse was threatening to flip over on you and kill all the spectators. You messed up in one way or another. It's time to leave.

Does it suck BIG TIME. Absolutely. But it's part of sports and it's part of life. Things like this at a young age teach you how to accept things graciously and learn when to call it a day. If we don't learn that when it's not going well, you walk off the course and you get to continue even if you're having a bad go, some people will never learn when to walk off the course on their own if they are having a bad day, or when to wd if the course is beyond your limitations.

When your horse is telling you know, for whatever reason, then it's time to listen. If you miss a fence and have a major brain fart, then yes, that's unfortunate, but maybe pay more attention next time. Hopefully you won't repeat the same mistake.

Well said and a big reason why the rules should be applied to all competitors, young or old, ammy or pro. We all have the same partner, our horses, to train, to listen to what they say, to repect and be responsible for their and ultimely our own well being.

[Blugal]

California, when the rider should have been stopped

I completely disagree.

1. It's the rider's responsibility to know the rules; to obey the rules; and to use their common-sense and remove themselves from the course if things aren't going their way that day.

2. The officials and jump judges were trying to stop the rider - not easy when she was going through a water complex that had 2 passes one right after the other

3. That was at FEI level, not nat'l level

4. Especially at FEI level, remove yourself from the course when it's not your day

[advmom]

I agree, she should have stopped long before her 4th stop.
However that is why we need to rule..people don't always do the rational thing

[Camstock]

Ha. I missed a fence one time. It was near the end so there was no time for the jump judges to stop me before I was done (and I had no idea or I would have stopped and walked in). Got the news by reading the scoreboard. Rats. Yes, I hope to never do that again. ;-)

[Foxtrot's]

I've done it, too. I was five months pregnant so had an excuse - maybe - but that was back in the day.

[fanfayre]

In Canada the walk off course after elimination is relatively recent.

I actually asked if they could be offered the chance to school the jump after the event but had to leave to go to a fundraiser, so do not know if the officials/organizers let them go out afterwards - it is by no means the norm to offer the chance, but sometimes they do here.

I don't think they were allowed this time, since CVES has schooling days so often (not that that helps the people from the island or far away who can't get there, but it will be their responsiblity to try to creat a schooling opportunity like that at home- maybe through a dry water jump.

Sorry to your friend that I had to ding her - hope she will speak to me next time!!!
Well, her horse stopped and wiggled, so we explained that each step "could" have been contrued as a stop, and she was lucky not to get the E, so to quit whining. Len the TD was very explicit that that fence would not be discussed, as a very experienced judge (you!!!) was there. She was able to go out on Sunday and do a clear stadium (her bugaboo), so she felt the weekend was a success anyway.

Re: not having time to stop the competitor- same event this weekend, lowest division, a junior started her very first x/c round at her first event on a pony who was not completely cooperating. Pony stopped at 2nd fence, girl represented and made pony go over. Upon landing, pony gave HUGE buck, which little girl rode absolutely perfectly (her position didin't change one iota). The TD stopped her between 2nd & 3rd fence (not too far a distance) and DR'ed her so she had to leave. To me that smacks of over-reading the rules, and not having flexibility, but it also shows there's ALWAYS time to stop a competitior who has been, or should be, E'd.

[Jazzy Lady]

Re: not having time to stop the competitor- same event this weekend, lowest division, a junior started her very first x/c round at her first event on a pony who was not completely cooperating. Pony stopped at 2nd fence, girl represented and made pony go over. Upon landing, pony gave HUGE buck, which little girl rode absolutely perfectly (her position didin't change one iota). The TD stopped her between 2nd & 3rd fence (not too far a distance) and DR'ed her so she had to leave. To me that smacks of over-reading the rules, and not having flexibility, but it also shows there's ALWAYS time to stop a competitior who has been, or should be, E'd.

WOW! DR's because her pony had a stop and then bucked? How is that fair?

Jeeze... you'd be DRing a lot of people in the dressage ring! lol.

[GoodyTwo]

Fanfayre, the example of the naughty pony doesn’t illustrate anything about time (nor ability) to get someone who deservedly needs to be pulled off XC pulled off. Radio competency amongst the users coupled with sometimes less than optimal reception and riders not heeding jump judges, being almost at the end of the course, going faster than “control” can get the message to the JJs… suffice to say I’ve seen more than my share of horses who should have been E’d and asked to leave the course make it across the finish, often with riders oblivious to the fact they’ve been E’d.

[fanfayre]

WOW! DR's because her pony had a stop and then bucked? How is that fair?

Jeeze... you'd be DRing a lot of people in the dressage ring! lol.
:confused:That's what we all want to know too!! Poor girl- interesting to see if she ever enters an event again.
I would definitely have been dr'd in dressage, as the pony I was riding was doing just that, maybe because I'm an adult and been around a looooong time:confused:

[OverandOnward]

...
Re: not having time to stop the competitor- same event this weekend, lowest division, a junior started her very first x/c round at her first event on a pony who was not completely cooperating. Pony stopped at 2nd fence, girl represented and made pony go over. Upon landing, pony gave HUGE buck, which little girl rode absolutely perfectly (her position didin't change one iota). The TD stopped her between 2nd & 3rd fence (not too far a distance) and DR'ed her so she had to leave. To me that smacks of over-reading the rules, and not having flexibility, but it also shows there's ALWAYS time to stop a competitior who has been, or should be, E'd.
:D If that TD had been there I would probably have been chucked out of my very first every unrecognized practice event cross-country. My horse let me know he didn't appreciate being held to a very slow pace by means of 3 bucking fits, at different spots. I was used to this, though, as at the time this was his standard means of conveying his criticism of a riding error on my part. We finished, with the final bucks just before the last jump. :lol:

My horse is still working on training up my riding skills, it's going much better now. ;)

[Foxtrot's]

This topic reminds me of a comment one of my friends made to me when I began eventing in Canada: "Give it a try - even if it takes you all season to get round." That was at Training level. I think we did more partying than riding in those days.

[Janet]

If you get disqualified in any other sport, you don't get to continue. If you get e'd in dressage, you have to leave the ring... even if it's not because your horse was threatening to flip over on you and kill all the spectators. You messed up in one way or another. It's time to leave. Not a good analogy
the third time the competitor is eliminated. However, at the discretion of the judge,
the rider may continue to finish to test.

And I know I have been allowed to continue the test after elimination due to "all 4 feet left the arena".

[goeslikestink]

It would be nice if you could continue if you had a technical elimination like missing a fence... but at the same time, you messed up huge.

If you get disqualified in any other sport, you don't get to continue. If you get e'd in dressage, you have to leave the ring... even if it's not because your horse was threatening to flip over on you and kill all the spectators. You messed up in one way or another. It's time to leave.

Does it suck BIG TIME. Absolutely. But it's part of sports and it's part of life. Things like this at a young age teach you how to accept things graciously and learn when to call it a day. If we don't learn that when it's not going well, you walk off the course and you get to continue even if you're having a bad go, some people will never learn when to walk off the course on their own if they are having a bad day, or when to wd if the course is beyond your limitations.

When your horse is telling you know, for whatever reason, then it's time to listen. If you miss a fence and have a major brain fart, then yes, that's unfortunate, but maybe pay more attention next time. Hopefully you won't repeat the same mistake.


well said- also its for safety reasons - if one has been eliminated then you have to come off the course so other compeditors can continue to compete and your not in the way