Thoroughbreds Are Better.

[Maya01]

:lol: I came across this article on another board from somebody, read it, and thought it was brilliant. Finally somebody has put proof behind the age old theory that thoroughbreds are, in fact, phenomenal specimens.

http://www.barnmice.com/profiles/blogs/even-mark-todd-can-be-led-4

If you have the time, read his other blogs, they are quite brilliant!

(Please Note: I am not trashing warmbloods, I just feel that full warmbloods have their place, and their place is not on a cross-country course - there is not point in arguing this with me, because this is one thing I am 100% set on :winkgrin: And please do not make this into a World War 3 thread, as the intentions of this thread is to merely supply people with more information not to wreak havoc)

[Ritazza]

To each his own. The title needs elaboration though. TBs are better... for what? For going to Rolex? What about those of us who aren't going there?
I for one never, ever, ever want to own a Thoroughbred. Just not interested.

[katie+tru]

Personally, if I had to recommend a horse for anyone doing any level of eventing I would go with a Thoroughbred. Doesn't have to be a ex-racer or one with impressive bloodlines. Just the general breeding of the Thoroughbred makes it excellent for eventing.

[EiRide]

Personally, if I had to recommend a horse for anyone doing any level of eventing I would go with a Thoroughbred. Doesn't have to be a ex-racer or one with impressive bloodlines. Just the general breeding of the Thoroughbred makes it excellent for eventing.

Maybe, maybe not. Depends on the TB!

My packer girl extraordinaire is QH and Cleveland Bay. She's miles better at eventing than either of my prior TBs--they were both too wimpy and one was not sound enough. My best XC horse ever was probably my old QH mare, range bred from the midwest. Verrry cool horse.

Different horses for different courses, and at the lower levels especially most sound horses with reasonable athletic ability will be just fine. I enjoy the TB ride, the WB ride, and lots of stuff in between. :-)

[asterix]

Well, I hope people actually read the article.
Sigh.

Honestly, I find this ridiculous. The VAST majority of us will never, EVER event past preliminary. The very first thing he talks about is the need for speed -- he says that you never want to be maxing out the horse's ability, speed-wise.

I completely agree.
But, folks, I'm sorry to inform you, if you have a horse whose speed ability is challenged by novice, then that is not an event horse. It doesn't matter if it is a TB or a draft horse.

My draft cross, no light thing, is making an absolutely fabulous event horse, now at Novice and hopefully Training in the fall. He is nowhere near "maxed out" at this level. Rolex? Um, yeah.

Of course, my draft cross is a CROSS. He is half TB. That's one of the other main points of the article -- TB in part, not necessarily in full, is what he is talking about.

My big horse, a warmblood (oh, the horrors), is, if you look at his papers, a small part TB. Does it matter? I doubt it. Is he a fabulous lower level (through prelim) event horse for an amateur? Yes. Are there thousands of great lower level ammy friendly horses out there who are TB, part TB, no TB?

Yes.

I find one of the biggest problems among the lower level eventers I see to be the Rolex Syndrome. They buy a horse who they think has the talent, bravery, speed, and scope to Go All the Way. Leaving aside the question of whether they are right, they are uniformly overhorsed and often miserable. We cringe when they go by on course.

Don't delude yourself. Buy a horse, of whatever breeding, that YOU can ride and who can DO the levels you REALISTICALLY can envision competing at.

End of story.

If we want to discuss suitable traits or breeding for international caliber horses, fine. Not the same thing.

[SEPowell]

Maya01, I agree with you 100% :) There is nothing else in this world I want to ride even though I admire many other breeds.

[JER]

I started a thread (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=219197) on this same topic last week.

Maybe we should put this discussion all in one place?

A good horse is a good horse. Most eventers will look for a horse that is suitable for doing what they want to do. It doesn't have to be any breed or type. It just has to get the job done.

To the OP -- if you don't want to start World War 3, don't give your thread a title like 'Thoroughbreds are better'. I've read the entire Micklem series and while he does love a TB, his series is about how TB blood is influential in sport horse breeding and performance.

[Ajierene]

While the article is interesting, it has a lot of flaws.

First, where is the scientific data to back up the claim that thoroughbreds have more fast twitch muscles and higher ability to function anaerobically?

Second - Merely-a-Monarch is mentioned as an example of a great thoroughbred. While he was competing at the highest level at a young age, it also mentions soundness issues drastically shortening his career as a 3 or 4 star horse. Is this because he was pushed so far so young or is it a Thoroughbred trait? No scientific research backing up either one, so either one could be true.

Third - he mentions some half thoroughbreds or quarter thoroughbreds and marking their success to their thoroughbred part. Are they successful because of or in spite of their thoroughbred half? I am not trying to downplay the thoroughbred, but whenever you look at a mix breed, you cannot assume that just one half of their genetics is the source of their success.

Fourth - He starts talking about bloodlines. Well, that begs the question whether it is the breed that is better for a discipline or the bloodline. Any thoroughbred that has passed warmblood inspections has to conform to warmblood regulations. This means that stating a warmblood is half thoroughbred is not necessarily stating that it is because of the thoroughbred breed that this horse is better, but because of that particular line or the qualities that particular horse bring to the table.

While the thoroughbred, overall, is a great breed, discounting other breeds by naming a few great thoroughbreds does everyone a disservice. To many expectations of your thoroughbred (mine tops out at Training level, it is unfair to think she should be able to do better because she is a thoroughbred). To little expectations of other breeds (wasn't there a pinto that won Badminton one year?), which can cause someone to turn a blind eye to a horse of another breed that may be great in a discipline. It also does a disservice to the other Olympic caliber horses that are not thoroughbred - what are they, flukes? They are, as much as the Olympic thoroughbreds are.

Thoroughbreds are great, but as others have stated as well, they are not the end all, be all of breeds. To each their own (breed).


EDIT: JER, saw your post after I posted. Maybe the mods can move or combine.

[forestergirl99]

I agree. There is a reason that a lot of top eventing trainers want horses that are mostly TB. Pippa Funnel stated in one of her books that she prefers a full or 7/8 TB. Also, what do most of the WBs who do well at eventing look like? TBs!!! That's because TBs were mixed in with the breed to improve their stamina, athleticism, and bravery! I would take a good TB over a WB any day because a lot of the WBs are mostly TB just with a fancy name.

However, this is not to say that some other breed can't do well. I don't have a full TB. My horse is an Appendix. He is built very much like a TB though due to the fact that both his parents were Appendixs as well.

[Maya01]

I started a thread (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=219197) on this same topic last week.

Maybe we should put this discussion all in one place?

A good horse is a good horse. Most eventers will look for a horse that is suitable for doing what they want to do. It doesn't have to be any breed or type. It just has to get the job done.

To the OP -- if you don't want to start World War 3, don't give your thread a title like 'Thoroughbreds are better'. I've read the entire Micklem series and while he does love a TB, his series is about how TB blood is influential in sport horse breeding and performance.

I wasn't aware you had another thread. Sorry about that D:

:lol: I hate the internet sometimes. No facial expressions or voice tones can make even the simplest statements sound outrageously different to other people. I'm slowly melting and I couldn't think of another title and wanted to share the article :S Sorry (again) if it offended you. :(

And though there are other breeds that have done well in eventing, thoroughbreds have been the main focus for the ideal event horse. I am not saying that no other breed can do eventing, obviously they can and I am fully aware of that, however most of those top level event horses that are draught or full warmbloods are basically freaks in the way that they have achieved something that isn't the norm of their breed. I am just privy to thoroughbreds, and they have proven that athleticism is definitely the 'norm' of their breed. I will leave it at that. I can't fully proofread because I'm just heading to the barn. If it doesn't make sense or perturbs you in anyway, just change the wording so it makes sense for you :winkgrin:

[JER]

And though there are other breeds that have done well in eventing, thoroughbreds have been the main focus for the ideal event horse.

I don't know what you mean by 'focus' but if you go through the history of the sport, you'll find that the predominantly successful breeding of the event horse is 3/4 TB or 7/8 TB, not a full TB.

:)

[GotSpots]

To little expectations of other breeds (wasn't there a pinto that won Badminton one year?), which can cause someone to turn a blind eye to a horse of another breed that may be great in a discipline. Pinto is a color, not a breed. There have been a number of pintos who have done quite well in eventing. You may be thinking of Poltroon, who won Rolex, was a 15.1 hh mare by a TB out of a pony mare. Others off the top of my head - Patrus Filius, who I think was out of what was referred to as a "gypsy mare" attempted Burghley in 2007; Pippa Funnell and Polly Jackson both had pintos that I think at least went to if not completed Badminton, but don't think either won.

If you're thinking of a Paint, which is technically a breed (though in all fairness, is much more of a color registry), I believe there's only ever been one Paint (Presto) who competed at Advanced. Haven't checked the status recently, but I understand he was the first when he ran his first Advanced in 2004.

Back to everyone's breed sniping. Agree with Asterix, a good horse is a good horse. I happen to love the TBs personality, work ethic, and quirks. Some folks don't. To each their own.

[Ajierene]

I was thinking of an English Pinto horse of questionable breeding. Now that I think about it, the horse did not win Badminton, but competed successfully. It was references on another thread and I am attempting to dig up that information to clarify.

[subk]

There are plenty of exceptions of non majority blood TBs doing well in upper level eventing, but they are most definitely just that, "exceptions." If you will read the whole series you will find that the author is giving TB blood the credit that is hidden when you label a horse by a "brand name" as opposed to a breed. I don't think anywhere does he approach the subject of full TB vs. something else! Just stating that WBs wouldn't be what they are without the infusion of TB blood.

When the vast majority of WB sires today have sire lines that emanate from TBs I'd be very careful before I'd claim I ain't ever, ever gonna ride a TB--cause if you're riding a WB today the chances are very strong you already got some of that under you tack.

[lstevenson]

First, where is the scientific data to back up the claim that thoroughbreds have more fast twitch muscles and higher ability to function anaerobically?



Um, this is a proven fact.

TB's definitely are the prefered breed for speed, endurance, and heart. Which is what upper level eventing *should* be all about. However, the WBs and WB crosses certainly give increased rideability and dressage prowess. So as eventing is unfortunately evolving into a dressage and SJ competition (with SJ over x-c jumps as well), they will be more and more successful.

TB's will always be my favorites though. I love horses with tons of heart, that will try till the ends of the earth for you.

[Foxtrot's]

I was just at our Championsip event this w/e and commented on the lovely types of horses/ponies out there most doing a good job and all suitable. That eventing is where we can see all types and sizes and colours competing together. Not talking about above Prelim, just the majority of riders doing their thing. TB's and TB-crosses are king at the higher levels IMO.

The biggest classes, and the moneymakers, are the pre-training and below. Thereafter only about one tenth of each group goes on to the next level.

[cloudyandcallie]

:lol: I came across this article on another board from somebody, read it, and thought it was brilliant. Finally somebody has put proof behind the age old theory that thoroughbreds are, in fact, phenomenal specimens.

http://www.barnmice.com/profiles/blogs/even-mark-todd-can-be-led-4

If you have the time, read his other blogs, they are quite brilliant!

(Please Note: I am not trashing warmbloods, I just feel that full warmbloods have their place, and their place is not on a cross-country course - there is not point in arguing this with me, because this is one thing I am 100% set on :winkgrin: And please do not make this into a World War 3 thread, as the intentions of this thread is to merely supply people with more information not to wreak havoc)

Of course TBs are better! Which is why in europe, the WB breeders import very good TB stallions, and add their blood to the gene pool.
I owned a wonderful ottb mare bred in Lexington KY, and I own her "cousin" a German wb 1/2 tb. The europeans know that TB blood makes the WBs better, but they import and use performance TB horses.

[Ajierene]

Um, this is a proven fact.

I did not necessarily say it wasn't - I asked where the scientific data is to show this.

So, since you think it is a 'proven fact', where is the scientific data to back up this claim?

Maybe it is just the educational side of me coming out, but if you are going to make a claim for something like thoroughbreds have more fast twitch muscles and can work better with anaerobic respiration, I want to see your source. Otherwise, don't make the claim. That is a flaw in the article, from my viewpoint - lack of scientific data to back up a scientifically related claim.

[Bobthehorse]

I don't know what you mean by 'focus' but if you go through the history of the sport, you'll find that the predominantly successful breeding of the event horse is 3/4 TB or 7/8 TB, not a full TB.

:)

Yes! And Blyth Tait wrote an article on the ideal event horse in his opinion, and he said something along the lines of it had to be half TB, but the other half could be anything so long as the horse was still light enough and had the goods. And it wasnt a recent article either.

[BarbB]

I love TBs. I love their minds. I love their athletic ability. There is no denying and no reason to argue about the impact of the TB on the world of sport horses.
I prefer to own and ride TBs.

I also prefer:
German Shepherd Dogs
Nissan cars and trucks
Gateway computers

Fortunately there are lots of choices to make everyone happy. :winkgrin:

And I hate these threads where everyone seems to have to 'defend' their choices by attacking everyone else's.

Just my early morning only one cup of coffee so far, observation.

[deltawave]

Better than what?

Better than a jab in the eye with a pointy stick? Certainly.

Better than world peace, health care reform and an end to global warming? Ummm. ;) ;) ;)

Without context, it's hard to say. I'm a fan of TB's, certainly, although I don't currently own one. I'd buy another IF it was the right horse, but would also buy a Knabstrupper or a Connemara/Akhal-Teke cross if it was the right horse, too. :)

[frugalannie]

While I agree that a good horse is a good horse, I don't think I could own an appaloosa or a knapstrupper. I'd spend all my time trying to decode the secret message by connecting the dots.:lol:

I love the TBs, and currently have 4 OTTB mares. I'm into recycling, I guess. But I breed them to really nice warmblood stallions trying to get the perfect mix for adult amateurs (like me!).

[goobs]

I love all breeds of horses because well I just love horses! Let's not forget that the 3 foundation sires of the Tbs were arabs! While personally I prefer TBs to ride and compete (and have a stunner yearling colt) I also adore my PP Arab stallion and his son, my 18 year old half arab/QH gelding who only competed up to T level.

Riding a good TB who has raced and won his races is like nothing in this world, then again I am addicted to speed! They are definitely not for everyone as they are highly sensitive creatures. While a "duller" breed may accept all your mistakes a TB will have adverse reactions to them. It's like driving a Honda and never having an accident then getting into a sportscar that is worth a few hundred thousand and trying to drive that. You'll crash in an instant! But they are sleek and athletic and so full of heart that (for me) they do make for a great competition partner. My TB now is a total momma's boy wimp - but if I'm there to give him confidence he's all game.

THey are great for what they are bred for - but other breeds are wonderful too. I love a good looking QH and you can't beat an Arab as a trailhorse or a beautiful WB for dressage, TWHs are great rides too. Everything has it's place.

[Fred]

While the title of this thread is a bit divisive, I think the OP's intent was just to draw attention to Mr Mickelm's very interesting, well-written series highlighting the IMPORTANCE of Thoroughbreds as high level sport horses, and the great importance of Thoroughbred blood in sport horse breeding.

He is not saying that "Thoroughbreds are better" - he is saying that TB blood is frequently overlooked, in all the disciplines. And he points to the marketing machinery of the various WB registries as one of the causes.

When it comes to eventing, the focus of his most recent article, he very definitely stresses the importance of Thoroughbreds. And by this he does not necessarily mean JC registered 100% TBs, but again, horses which are predominately of Thoroughbred blood.

Again, he is talking about the importance of Thoroughbred blood. The gene pool. The precious genetics of centuries of breeding for speed,endurance, courage, athleticism, jumping ability - and the corresponding physical characteristics. And the value of those precious genes in the production of performance horses.

But he says it better than I do! Have a read.

He has strong and definite opinions, and he says what he thinks. Entertaining, informative and thought provoking.

[Fred]

BTW, the title of the series is Even Mark Todd Can Be Led Astray. If you go back to the beginning of the series, the author sets up his starting point for the series, and the reason behind it.