Fathers, sons, daughters, mothers...

[pintopiaffe]

Would love to hear your perspective, most especially if you are a small breeder...

I adore my stallion and he's not going anywhere, any time. I also now have his son, out of my old Trak mare. Son appears to be even better than Da, and has a bright future. Plans are for him to be a keeper, the 'junior stallion prospect' at this point.

My ideal numbers mean keeping only two or three mares, a fourth if she's doing other stuff too or retired, but two or three for breeding right now, and they must do double duty as lesson horses for special students (which doesn't always mean RIDING, but some riding of course.)

I already have one young mare, who is daughter to my stallion, 1/2 (paternal) sister to Jr. stallion, granddaughter to my Big Bay Broodmare Extraordinaire(TM).

Big Bay Broodmare Extraordinaire(TM) has not cooperated in giving me a keeper daughter with outside lines. She has however, given me four exceptional foals when bred to my stallion. Top scorers at their inspections, etc.

I think it's probably foolish use of money to try to AI the Big Bay Broodmare again, 2x and she hasn't taken, does have uterine cysts. All has been really close to IDEAL both times. I really can't justify the cost though of trying again at this point...

What I *can* do, at no cost whatsoever, is use my stallion. He pretty much can *look* at her and nibble her neck and get her pregnant, so for one last foal, this could be a chance...

But, should I get my filly, now I've got two daughters. Two sisters to the Jr. stallion.

At what point is it foolish to try to continue a damline, when you own the sire?

How many daughters of a SIRE is too many?

He is my training/riding horse... I know some places end up selling a herd sire, or passing him along to another great home when they get daughters... but I can't really see that as an option. If an exceptional YR came along, I'd put him in competition... but then I'll STILL have his son...

I guess I'm just trying to suss out whether it makes any sense at all, besides sentiment, to try for one last one out of her, but with my stallion... I just owe this mare everything.

Top it off, I still have the Sempatico breeding for one more cycle... I can try again, try the granddaughter/daughter/sister... or just let it go.

:sigh:

[okggo]

I think most people on here sell the daughters - and the exceptional ones tend to be kept for under saddle work. Or if they stand multiple stallions, kept as a broodmare for a different stud.

I think you need to answer this - are you dedicated to your mares or your stallion. If your program is built around your stallion (and his son) then IMHO sell the daughters. You always have the option of breeding your stud to your mares, selling the offspring, and saving some of that money to buy outside mare lines (more of a given then trying to breed them, given the bad luck with AI).

The trick is not getting attached, lol.

When I was considering keeping Durham as a stallion prospect I was thinking about mares for him. I had full intensions of selling the daughters/sons, or maybe keeping a few to start and then sell. Anyway, I bred him once and gelded him - and now I have that daughter and my stud is now a gelding and my pleasure horse. Despite being his one and only, I'm still planning on selling his daughter. She is 100% a dainty hunter prospect, and I'm more interested in producing a certain type then certain bloodlines - so I am keeping a filly with completely different and non-sentimental lines b/c she is of the type that I want to breed.

I know a few people on these boards whose goals drifted from their sire lines, and they actually gelded them and kept the boys as riding horses and took another route with breeding. But in your case, with the passion and tears behind your lovely guys, I'd be more inclined to say save up and buy some different mare lines and stick to breeding your mares to your stallions and selling the offspring.

[Alexie]

I just owe this mare everything.

is she old enough to enjoy a peaceful retirement?

having too many horses isn't fun.

i only breed to keep or for my family as i can't bear to put in all that hard work for some strangers benefit.
in your position I wouldn't breed her.

[tempichange]

you've stated several times that you are glad that this mare had not settled. Why are you trying to reproduce and stretch yourself thin? Why not concentrate on the ones you do have and promote them thoroughly?

[Bravestrom]

We are kind of going through this right now - I have my horse's sister -she has given us a beautiful colt and now a filly for me to carry on the lines.

I also have another line that has a filly that is now in foal.

Now my colt as a 2 yr old has been bred to a special trak/tb mare and my colt will also be able to be bred to the filly from my other line that is in foal. So I can continue breeding without purchasing semen except for the filly that is the colt's sister.

So I think I should sell my horse's sister - but - she is a great broodmare and throws fantastic foals. I have put the mare under saddle and while I love her - think we will put her up for sale.

[FriesianX]

Ahhhh, I hear you PintoP... What to do when you have a special broodie who is nearing the end of her breeding life? You KNOW she'll retire forever with you, but is it worth one more, just one more try...

My advice, fwiw - I think when a mare doesn't take after a few tries, she is telling you something. She needs the year off. It is late - (can anyone here believe it is already creeping toward the end of AUGUST?!?!?! holy cow, where has the Summer gone???). But - maybe next Spring, give it one more try, see if she gives you one more foal. And if not, if her body says no more, then just enjoy watching her grazing in the pasture, reigning over her herd. And be glad you own her daughter.

Meanwhile, the 2nd part of your question - how many mares is too many when they are the same line? Well, that depends on how many outside stallions you want to use. If you want to dedicate your breeding program to your own stallion, then it doesn't make sense to keep his own fillies. So you would plan on marketing those fillies instead.

I have a filly right now that I'm agonizing whether to keep or not, I can understand your feelings! My filly is out of my oldest mare - and her FIRST EVER filly. And by an outside stallion I really like - so the question becomes - do I keep her for my broodie herd? Her mother is getting older... What to do. I have plenty of mares, but, but, but...

Sometimes we have to sit back and decide where we are going long term. Wouldn't it be nice if we could read the future? It would sure make life EASIER:lol:

[Sassenach]

I hear you as I'm finding myself running into circumstances that are quite similar.

We have keeper fillies sired by my stallion. One is the 2yr orphan filly who will never ever be for sale. Ever. She's mine. The other is a 2009 filly out of our best broodmare who was born due to the circumstances of her birth is a keeper. She is just a FANTASTIC filly. I swear each foal this mare has is better than the other.

As we are a small farm having two fillies as keepers by our stallion is really quite a lot. I know in future when I'm done with college/graduate school they will be mine and my brood/competition mares.

I'm actually toying with the idea of breeding the 2yr filly next year as there is a stallion I REALLY like whose lines are near nonexistent in this country and he is not being used and getting up there in age.

I''m also more of a dam/mareline breeder anyway so having so many mares from one line isn't a big issue for me. Sadly this was a lesson we had to learn the hard way as my Great Grey Broodmare in Ireland had 5 fillies in a row with our old stallion. Then she didn't get in foal and he died suddenly.

We looked and tried and just can't buy any of those mares back. She was bred to another stallion and produced a fabulous now 2yr filly who isn't going anywhere but I REALLY wish I had one of those fillies by our old stallion.

My vote would be to concentrate on the mareline that has given you so much but I also see th dilemma of 'what's the point of having a stallion if he doesn't breed mares' it isn't fair to the stallion.

[pintopiaffe]

tempichange, I think maybe you're confusing me with another poster? I've done nothing for the past five years except try for a keeper filly out of this mare. I was devastated last year at the prognosis, and this year things looked much better so we tried again... now, in the grand scheme of job uncertainty, yes, I suppose it's not the worst thing... but I've never been glad she didn't take... :sadsmile:

Thanks guys for adding your thoughts. Just thinking it through with others helps. I do love the boys... but mares are the heart of any program. A granddaughter *is* a blessing... Perhaps I need to shift focus. It's really hard when it's your first mare without whom you wouldn't even be a breeder. :sadsmile:

[Waterwitch]

I am also a "family" breeder so I can identify with your situation. Like okggo said, at some point you may have to decide whether you are going to prioritize the mare family or the sireline. Alternatively, if you can build adequate genetic distance into your program, you may not have to decide - I think that is what you are trying to do with the Sempatico breeding. So in your situation, I guess I would breed the foundation mare to your stallion and breed one of the daughters to Sempatico. One more generation with an outside stallion on a granddaughter and you could potentially come back in with the senior stallion, depending on how your bloodlines tolerate close linebreeding. Even better, breed one of the non-TK line mares to an outside stallion until you get a stallion quality colt to breed to the TK line mares.

The problem with small family programs like yours (and mine) is that due to the small numbers, it can take a long time to make progress if you operate a stringent culling criterion. I have recently tended toward keeping fillies for awhile to give them a chance to develop even if I think they are going to be culls when they are foals. I've kept a couple of fillies until age 2 to give them a chance to show me what they've got (or not got). I'm learning that my impressions of the foals is generally still there at age 2 - ie. if there is an element of "wishful thinking" to my decision to keep a filly, I probably need to go ahead and cull them or put them on the riding horse track to be sold under saddle.

Good luck.

[tempichange]

tempichange, I think maybe you're confusing me with another poster? I've done nothing for the past five years except try for a keeper filly out of this mare. I was devastated last year at the prognosis, and this year things looked much better so we tried again... now, in the grand scheme of job uncertainty, yes, I suppose it's not the worst thing... but I've never been glad she didn't take... :sadsmile:

No, I remember it, actually here's the direct quote from that thread, while you weren't glad you were probably very relieved:

Ack! Sorry guys... I ended up starting another thread "Would YOU sleep out with her tonight..."

She is not pregnant. Vet saw her step off the trailer and thought she was too--but not 363 pg... just pg. He felt like the weather we've had, doing unknown things to pasture, and maybe the soy (he think's I'm a little out there sometimes, but agreed that since the hives went away, possibly the soy was triggering other issues...) made her show the signs. I find it interesting that she-of-the-silent-heats actually SHOWED heat... which just enforces MY theory that there was some hormone connection with the feed. She's been off soy for like 2 weeks now, hives are gone, belly's gone down, vulva's back to normal and no more udder filling...

Meanwhile, no rebreed, shed closed on July 1. Perhaps no rebreed next year even--my contract may have only said for '09. I can't get my hands on it--can find every other freaking piece of paper related to every pregnancy ever concieved on this place... but not the contract for THAT stallion. I don't actually think I got one back... shame on me for not photocopying what I sent.

And... finally... I am unemployed as of tomorrow. Still haven't heard about new job. Waiting on one County Commissioner who 'had to think about it.' Since last THURSDAY. Grr. Teaching and doing my PT gigs... so things ok for now. I 'worked from home' today posting a bunch of stuff on Ebay. It really did take most of the day between photos, uploading, etc. Crossing fingers and toes all of it goes, would give me a couple weeks' breathing room if needed...

So, considering the job uncertainty at the moment, no foal is not a bad thing. Of COURSE I am sad. I feel like a fool too for being taken in... I'm glad I only lost one night of sleep

[seramisu]

tempichange: the above quote from pintopiaffe's earlier post was about a different mare.

[tempichange]

tempichange: the above quote from pintopiaffe's earlier post was about a different mare.

I realize that, however, I unless I am mistaken the financial situation has not changed?

It's not my place to state what someone should or should not do with their money.

However, I question the logic. I understand attachment, wanting carbon copies of the mare, ensuring the legacy of the line, et all. I'm right there with you, I was prepared to breed again this year, however my finances became tighter and I opted out. I'm thankful that I did.

But, if they are slightly relieved about one mare not being pregnant (which looked like a nice cross) because things are stretched thin, why reproduce another?

[pintopiaffe]

There's a difference between no foal NOW and no foal next year. It's not the finances as much as the schedule--I have 3 good PT jobs but the hours can be irregular, not good at all for foal. The going in for interviews at the drop of a hat has been interesting too. ;) Signed a conditional offer yest'dy too... partly hence the musings.

You can't sell anything if you don't have anything for sale. At some point you have to look further down the road than next week or next month. In ten years, will I kick myself for not trying one last time? I dunno. <shrugs> You have to ponder.

And you know what? Good to hear the Devil's Advocte too! It adds to the debate.

It's a new situation with the half-siblings, I've obviously never KEPT a related filly before.

[Blue Moon]

I may not be in the majority but I think you can never have too many daughters of a favorite stallion. I have sold fillies and then later regretted it greatly, because the mare never gave me another daughter. I have bred mares to the same sire 4 or 5 times in a row and even when I thought the first few foals were wonderful, sometimes the later ones were even better. You never know, the next one may be the best of all. I would go ahead and breed her to your stallion, and use your breeding to the outside stallion for a daughter or granddaughter or whatever other mare you have.

[Rhyadawn]

You can always sell, but you can't create a daughter out of air ;)

You've got nothing to lose (aside from some cash) by giving it one more chance

[kookicat]

Could you ET your grand old mare? :)

[Oakstable]

It's such a personal decision on whether to breed or not, and it comes down to finances.

My area is second only to Detroit in unemployment, accdg to recent reports.

I left my two teenage Dutch mares open last year. I have two daughters of breeding age. I have another three-year-old, a Premium GOV filly.

I have what I think is the only daughter of Itaxerxes in NA.

Itaxerxes had been awarded Elite status 1995 and was champion at his grading and his 100 Day Performance Test. He won many showjumping competitions including 13 in one year and was competing successfully at Advanced Dressage. He is also the sire of Bardolino the 1994 Showjumping Champion at the National Championships at Cologne.

I didn't breed last year and I haven't bred anyone this year. I still consider it. If you doubt this is an addiction, think again.

[tempichange]

I love being devil advocate;)

There's a difference between no foal NOW and no foal next year. It's not the finances as much as the schedule--I have 3 good PT jobs but the hours can be irregular, not good at all for foal. The going in for interviews at the drop of a hat has been interesting too. ;) Signed a conditional offer yest'dy too... partly hence the musings.

The old saying is: time is money. If you time (valuable, stretched thin) is being spent between three part-time jobs how do you raise and train a foal in addition to training the stallion through the levels, his junior counter part, managing the rest of the herd, preparing horses for sale and have time for yourself?

Coming from personal experience, I work full time (in addition to professionally designing websites on the side and semi-pro-ing photographs), ride one third level mare and raise her hopeful four-footed successor. I ride at least five days a week, with my own chores, I work him two to three. Doing it properly, it's time consuming.

Breeding is an addiction to me. I love reproducing my mares because I enjoy them so much. However, what prevents me from having a gajillion carbon copies is my time and my finances. I am enthusiastic of what I have put on the ground already. I'm ecstatic that I have good potential in the barn and will for years to come.

But I cannot honestly say that if I kept going on the trend I was going, that I would have had time nor the quality of horses I have now. Nor would I had the time or the finances to represent them to their fullest potential.

That, as a breeder, a rider and someone who trains, I want my name accurately represented. If I'm spread too far out, I cannot do this. So it's quality I'm after.

The question I have right now is what are your priorities?

Do you want to breed, and put the financial and time investment towards something that could or could not turn out, or do you want to let the herd mature?

There are options out there for reproduction as well. ET and freezing embryos are ones that I think of.

Five years down the road are you still going to be posting about wishing to go to SHN, or how the stallion isn't meeting his potential because of environmental/personal situations? Or how you wish more more training?

Think about it.

[okggo]

You know every situation is unique, but tempi has a very interesting perspective that is a good one to throw into the mix.

The idea of being spread too thin, not have enough time to best care for the ones you have - I don't think that is a foreign concept to most of us on the SHB board.

I'm limited by time and acreage, which is why I chose to keep our girls open this year, despite having a breeding paid for (and likely losing it). We have 7 on farm, 6 are ours - 3 we are riding, 2 yearlings and a weanling. At best right now I'm riding 3x/week b/c of my job, travels and commute. The young ones are not getting the attention they should - weekly instead of daily because I spend my evenings feeding and cleaning out run ins and then am pretty much spent. Anyway, my goal is to start focusing on the ones I have, get the one broodmare in the show ring, and get the youngsters out to breed shows/mileage and hopefully sell a couple. I won't breed any more until we sell some of what we have b/c I don't want to destroy our grass and I know I'm basically a one person show (hubby helps, but it's rare) and am already stretched.

So I can see truth in temi's post, and it's always something good to consider as you plan for next year - your situation MAY be different, but what if it isn't or what if it's worse? Can you do the ones you already have justice?

Anyway - really you are the best to make the decision, you really know what is most important to you and what direction your life might take. But it might be better to regret not having a foal then to regret having one.

Really wish you the best of luck in deciding, keep us posted :)