Registered vs. no papers

[gasrgoose]

When your horse shopping for a performance H/J does the registration matter to you? Are you more likely to go look at a registered hore?

[Sunny's Mom]

For say, an AA gelding? No.

I purchased a really nice gelding from Florida a few years ago, his papers were lost. I was disappointed but...he's a gelding...it just doesn't matter.

It's another story if the horse is a mare that I might want to breed in the future.

[Mozart]

I want papers or the ability to get them. For re-sale purposes it verifies the horse's age and identity. The actual registry does not matter so much to me (if we are talking gelding, for mare it does as it will affect what sort of registration options the offspring have).

[password]

We are more likely to go look at the horse whose video looks the best. :)

[PineTreeFarm]

I'm more interested in the question 'Can the horse do the intended job?' then I am in papers.

Papers can be switched but talent can't.

[Shawnda N]

I won't even look at an un-registered horse. I want proof of age, bloodlines, and with that you can often track down a show record (if there is one).
I believe the market is shifting to buyers wanting to have papers on the horses they buy. Which registry for a gelding does not matter, but for a mare, I want so-and-so registries only.

[M. O'Connor]

You will get different answers on this. I do wonder if those who insist on papers would pass on a superior performance horse without papers, in favor of a less able one who has them.

Apparently, having registration papers enhances the value for this type of buyer even more than athleticism.

I know, they will all contend that a higher percentage of horses WITH papers are better athletes, but since they are likely to just completely pass on looking at those horses lacking them, I fail to see how they would know.

In any case, I don't think it matters one bit for a gelding.

It is nice to know what you have if you plan to breed a mare. But that isn't the OP's question.

[Jesse'sMom]

For say, an AA gelding? No.

I purchased a really nice gelding from Florida a few years ago, his papers were lost. I was disappointed but...he's a gelding...it just doesn't matter.

It's another story if the horse is a mare that I might want to breed in the future.

Ditto.. if a gelding who cares.. if a mare, its nice to have a back up plan

[xsalute]

If I was looking at a young horse I would want papers. If I was looking for a horse under saddle I would overlook the paper if the horse had a good show record and we just meshed. There are a lot of variables. There is a lot to be said for high rideability.

[PineTreeFarm]

I won't even look at an un-registered horse. I want proof of age, bloodlines, and with that you can often track down a show record (if there is one).
I believe the market is shifting to buyers wanting to have papers on the horses they buy. Which registry for a gelding does not matter, but for a mare, I want so-and-so registries only.

Ok, you want proof of bloodlines. If the horse can't jump what good will that do you?
If the horse is a success as a show horse (especially if it's a gelding) why would the lack of papers deter you from a purchase as a peformance horse?
Show records are available on any horse recorded with USEF. Makes no difference if they have papers.

[Mozart]

I know, they will all contend that a higher percentage of horses WITH papers are better athletes, but since they are likely to just completely pass on looking at those horses lacking them, I fail to see how they would know.



For me it is about verification and proof of what I have been told, I evaluate athleticism and rideability according to what I see and then what I feel sitting on the horse. I would still go and look at the unpapered horse but lack of documentation goes on the CON side of the "buy or not buy" ledger.

[Shawnda N]

From the recent Sporthorse sale in Virginia. The average price of horses with/without papers.

Overall Average (not counting the passed horses): $8404
High Sell: Davignport $68,500
Low Sell: Several $1000

One over $50k
Three btwn $50k and 25k
Five btwn $25k and 15k
Three btwn 15k and 10k
Eleven btwn 10k and 5k
Twenty eight under 5k

Yearlings: $3457
2 Yr Olds: $4475
3 Yr Olds: $10800
4 Yr Olds: $8217
5 Yr Olds: $18700
6 Yr Olds: $6343
7 Yr Olds: $2450
8-17 Yr Olds: $12083 (including High Seller)

Number with no papers: 13
Avg: $4330
High Seller: $17500

Number with papers: 35
Avg: $9246
High Seller: $68500

[PineTreeFarm]

For me it is about verification and proof of what I have been told, I evaluate athleticism and rideability according to what I see and then what I feel sitting on the horse. I would still go and look at the unpapered horse but lack of documentation goes on the CON side of the "buy or not buy" ledger.

What are you verifiying? What do you mean by 'proof'?

[PineTreeFarm]

From the recent Sporthorse sale in Virginia. The average price of horses with/without papers.



Not relevant. Those were not performance H/J horses. That was the original question, Nothing to do with DHSB or HB line horses.

[Mozart]

What are you verifiying? What do you mean by 'proof'?

Age
Prior owners
Performance record

Also, depending on the age of the horse, I would like verification of parentage. For an older, going gelding, it is not important, he either does the job or not. For a young horse, parentage might be a indication of potential. Especially for the late maturing ones.

Again, as a prior poster stated...there are a lot of variables.

[Fairview Horse Center]

This is being posted on a Sporthorse BREEDING forum. I am betting you will get a different concentration of answers on Dressage, Hunter/Jumper, or the Eventing forum. ;)

[PineTreeFarm]

Age
Prior owners
Performance record

You are assuming that the papers really belong to the horse you are looking at.

A performance record has nothing to do with papers it's simply what points are attached to a horse recording ID.

For many performance horses there are so many photos and videos available on line that a visual ID may be more effective in establishing that the performance record does belong to the horse you are looking at.

[pintopiaffe]

;) What Darlyn said. Wrong audience for the poll.

[CBoylen]

I don't care if they have papers. I'm interested in listening if they can tell me how it's bred. If they can't, it's not going to influence my decision on the horse. If I like the horse, I don't care if it's out of Texas by Truck. If I don't like the horse, the best papers in the world aren't going to make it a better horse.
Actually, I think breeding information is most likely to influence my decision negatively. There are of course a few lines with which I'm familiar and which I like, but I wouldn't buy a horse from those lines that I wouldn't buy otherwise. I may be more likely to go look at them, but that's as far as it goes. There are, however, a few lines that I'm familiar with that would make me seriously reconsider an intended purchase and that would make me less likely to go out of my way to see the horse.

[PineTreeFarm]

;) What Darlyn said. Wrong audience for the poll.

Maybe not.
This topic points out that the breeders will say 'must have papers' and perhaps the H/J performance crowd disagree with that idea.
I'd think the breeders would want to know if papers are important for the H/J performance market?
I understand that it's in the breeders best interests to say papers are everything but sometimes the reality is different than the perception.

[password]

Totally agree with CBoylen and Pinetree on this one. I can't imagine any trainer that makes a living by winning saying, "Oh, I will ride this lesser horse because he has such a fantastic pedigree and wonderful papers. And he came from such a great farm". The top riders and trainers need the BEST horse for the money, period, not the best papers.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I'd think the breeders would want to know if papers are important for the H/J performance market?
.

Yes, but I think many Hunter Jumper people don't usually post on the sporthorse breeding forum. The polll would likely get more accurate results posted on the other forums, then post the results here for discussion. ;)

[Foxtrot's]

The most important reason to have papers for a performance horse is to check his age.
For a filly, to ensure that she has the best chance as a future valuable broodmare should she age out or become unusable. Other than that is is whether the horse can do the job he is trained to do and do it well.

I just think (from a breeder's point of view) that it is a bit of a cop out not to bother to register - the stallion owner would thank you. I'm always a little surprized when riders/trainers/owners do not know their bloodlines....whatever.

[YankeeLawyer]

You will get different answers on this. I do wonder if those who insist on papers would pass on a superior performance horse without papers, in favor of a less able one who has them.

.

That scenario is a red herring. Why compromise?

That said, if it's a gelding and already started under saddle, I don't care that much about papers. For all unstarted horses and all mares (started or unstarted), papers are important to me.