Cut Off Nose to Spite Face? Or Bite Tongue?

[PLeC]

Either way it won't be pleasant... (I hope this is the right forum to post this.)

I have a very small breeding operation, and just breed one foal every few years. I live in a remote area, and have turned to a local trainer that lives closeby to help me get my kids ready for their inspection. The trainer goes with me to the inspection, braids, handles, etc. She does a good job, and I enjoy the company. But something she did really, really bothers me to the point that I'm thinking of not going this year and maybe take the youngun next year instead, even though the entry is in, hotel reservations set, etc. Okay, getting to the point...

She has a TB mare with EPM that she bought in foal 'cause she was cheap. (She knew about the EPM.) The mare had a very difficult pregnancy, had a horrible dystocia when she foaled, retained part of the placenta, foundered. The horse is pretty fragile, has never been ridden, colics regularly. She was thinking of breeding her back, but the mare had a hemorrhagic follicle. To say the least, the mare is very high maintenance!

So what does she do? She puts mare for sale on the internet as a proven broodmare! A man supposedly "loves" her bloodlines, and arranges to have her shipped a couple thousand miles away! (Supposedly trainer has told him about EPM, that she colics alot but she told him mare will be okay in warm climate.) :mad: Okay, here's the part that bothers me to no end. When the shipper picked the mare up, she hadn't been paid the $500 yet, but she allows her to be shipped. Now, guess what? The shipper has the mare at his ranch because he hasn't gotten paid either! The dude who has supposedly purchased her, is nowhere to be found! Shipper calls my trainer, and she refuses to pay for the shipping to get the mare back. He tells her that he may be able to find her a home if she'll send the papers. She won't do that unless he gives her $500.

All this just really upsets me. :no: The mare is not worth $500, and she's lucky to find any home at all. But being waylaid thousands a miles away w/o papers, in her shape is a death sentence IMO. Every time I talk to teh trainer, I ask about the mare. Now she's starting to get pissed when I ask. She insists that she's not going to give up the papers until she has $500, but says the shipper is perfectly welcome to sell her. If he does, she'll send the papers after she gets her money. When I told her I think she should go get her or have her shipped back, she thinks I'm nuts. Every time I talk to her I remind her, "She's your mare. You can’t leave her out there. The least you can do is have her put down!" Now she’s pissed at me.

Anyway, as I said, I'm really, really bothered by this. To the point I just want to end the relationship and "cut my nose off to spite my face" rather than "bite my tongue" and go to the inspection and pay her for her time, and all the expenses of taking her. Do you think this is some kind of "con" by the shipper? Should I MMOB? WWYD? ... sorry this was so long...

[Hampton Bay]

I won't get into what you should or should not do, but why can't you take the foal by yourself? Could you contact the inspection site to see if someone there could help you braid and handle the foal?

[Movin Artfully]

It would seem that you find her actions to be unethical.

Personally, I choose to NOT do business with people I find to be unethical.

HB nailed it.

[Fred]

That poor mare - and good for you for caring about her. Someone has to.

As HB suggested, contact the inspection hosts - they will usually have a braider and a handler available, if that is the route you decide to take. Then you could just go with another friend for company and an extra hand.

of course, right now, I'm worrying about the mare......

Good luck to you and her.

[okggo]

Ugh, I absolutely hate to hear stories like this :(

How dependant are you on her? Did you also consider her a friend prior to this? How much do you value that friendship?

I can relate a semi similar scenario - I had a friend MANY years ago of which I very much disagreed with her business practices. She had a broodmare that for many years would not get in foal, usually aborted around 6 months old. After many years of trying, she had one foal, she sold it, and the next year found out it had died of a heriditary disease. Stallion has many foals and none with the problem, so it quite obviously came from the mare. A few more years, tries to breed, she continues her abort trend and then is able to carry another full term. This one also ended up with that disease. Anyway, puts her on the market as an 18 y/o proven broodmare, and safe riding horse (I don't think anyone had been on her other than a jockey at the track). So she is getting calls from people who want little Sally Jr to come try her - 12 years old. Rather then say this is an inappropriate match, mare hasn't been ridden in many many years and unknown if ever retrained from track, she calls me to see if I'd ride the mare and give the girl a lesson on her. Anyway...I denied, told her the mare was not suitable and I'd not assist in something I felt was wrong.

It doesn't have to end ugly, but when you feel morally compromised b/c of someone elses decisions, I think it's a good time to at the least step out of that situation. You will not change her mind, you tried. You can either step to the side and ignore her selling practices from now on out (really, it's better to just not know in the cases where you can't do anything about it anyway) and continue the training work with her, or find a new trainer. That is really up to you and how much you trust her in other aspects of the horse business.

I just feel really bad for that mare.

[Equine Reproduction]

I don't think you have to bite your tongue OR forego saying anything. I would politely tell her that you are extremely concerned about how she has handled the situation with the broodmare and that it is having an impact on your relationship with her. You can state it in a way that has an impact without putting her on the defensive - "Ya know Mary, I absolutely value your assistance and your training, but what you have done with your mare is so inconsistent with how you treat your horses and your ethics - I'm really puzzled. It is so not you! And, it's impacting my relationship with you negatively. I could understand it if we were talking thousands, but it's not. As you have taught me, it's not, nor should it be, all about money so could you please explain, in a way that I can comprehend your position, why you would leave your mare in limbo and jeopardize her having a good home? "

Quite honestly, if she can't provide you with an appropriate answer and won't step up to the plate and do the responsible thing, no matter how good and competent she is at her training, is it truly someone you want to be associated with? Unfortunately, too many people make decisions based solely on money <sigh>.

Good luck and I hope the outcome is positive for everyone.

[kokoda]

I think you probably know the answer already and are reluctant to cut the tie. No responsible horse owner/breeder/trainer would leave an animal in limbo intentionally. IMHO, her behavior speaks for itself and if you really value the relationship, follow Kathy's advice ... and then make other arrangements for your foal.

Lots of luck to you ... and many jingles for that poor mare!

[YankeeLawyer]

I wouldn't even bother with the "this is not like you" lengthy stuff. The fact of the matter is that her conduct speaks for itself - it apparently *is* like her to behave that way. I would simply arrange for someone else to handle my horses. And if I cared about that poor broodmare, I would ask the trainer's permission to go get her myself, because it is clear that this woman is not going to do anything about it.

[TKR]

How someone treats an animal, particular one so vulnerable, tells me what to expect and what their character is (or is not). I don't waste time on people who (to me) are morally corrupt as far as their compassion for animals and their responsibility for them. I would write her off -- but I am also very concerned for the poor mare!
PennyG

[Equine Reproduction]

Desperate people do desperate. None of us know how the trainer usually does things. While $500 may not be a lot of money to some, it can mean the difference between paying rent or feeding the family to others. There may be more to what is going on than just simply money grubbing. Hence my suggestion about sitting down and having a chat with the trainer before severing all ties. I have no doubt that there have been situations any one of us have been involved in that superficially appeared abhorrent, but once the full story came out, it had a totally different appearance. Communication can solve an incredible number of problems, especially if it is presented in a non-confrontational manner. Hence my suggestion...

[YankeeLawyer]

Desperate people do desperate. None of us know how the trainer usually does things. While $500 may not be a lot of money to some, it can mean the difference between paying rent or feeding the family to others. There may be more to what is going on than just simply money grubbing. ...

I am sure there is, which for me is even more reason not to guilt-trip the woman. As I said, if I were concerned about the mare I would ask permission to go get her myself. But I also really would not want someone like this handling my horses; that's just the way I am.

In addition, the OP apparently has made several attempts to discuss the mare with the trainer and was rebuffed each time.

[misita]

That's so true Kathy. It's just so hard to know the whole story.

[talloaks]

They mystery continues. Do you really think there was a "man" at the other end who was going to pay for the shipping? and the horse? Or was this all fabricated to get the horse off the trainers property, 2000 miles away, so that she wouldn't be forced to bring her back?? In other words, get rid of a horse she didn't want to take care, of even want???

Why did the "man" at the other end disappear?

I wouldn't trust this trainer as far as I could throw her. Better beware.

[Equine Reproduction]

They mystery continues. Do you really think there was a "man" at the other end who was going to pay for the shipping? and the horse? Or was this all fabricated to get the horse off the trainers property, 2000 miles away, so that she wouldn't be forced to bring her back?? In other words, get rid of a horse she didn't want to take care, of even want???

Why did the "man" at the other end disappear?

I wouldn't trust this trainer as far as I could throw her. Better beware.

There are other, easier, neater, less controversial ways to accomplish the same thing :( I dunno... I can just think of things that have been taken out of context and wouldn't presume to pass judgment without knowing more. Heck, remember the brouhaha over the aged broodmare that was posted for sale that turned out to be a mare at Edgar's place? A lot of assumptions were made about that situation that thankfully Edgar was able to clear up with nothing more than communication. Not saying that this is any way similar and certainly not defending anyone, but talking doesn't cost a dime, but can sure solve a lot of problems. I do hope the OP lets us know how it all turns out, though...

[PLeC]

Thanks for the responses and PM’s. I haven’t talked to this person in over a week, so I haven't learned anything since I posted here.

I don’t think she’s a bad person or a bad trainer. She’s been instrumental in starting my young horses and has helped me considerably in getting them sold. For that, I am grateful. It’s just the old story of basically a good person making a succession of bad decisions. She’s young and thinks she knows better than everybody else. My complaint is that she’s not addressing or accepting the fact that bad decisions have consequences. But rather than own and address them, she’s choosing to make them somebody else’s problem. Something can be said about the vigor and confidence of youth, but there’s also something to be said about the wisdom and experience from the school of hard knocks. :cool: In other words, I saw the writing on the wall awhile ago. So, yes, I will do my best to talk to her, but I’ve already started looking for another trainer. If I don’t find one in time for the inspection, I’ll do what I can with what I have – me.

Okay for those that are interested, this is the “rest of the story:”

The trainer moved into my area several years ago – she’s a big name around here, having gone to the top level of her sport. I live in the middle of nowhere, and she’s the only training facility within a couple hrs that’s not Western oriented (she’s only 15 min. from me.) So it was wonderful to have someone with her aptitude so close. She has the arenas, jumps, expertise that I don’t. Her business model was simple. “Build it and they will come,” and we did. Being able to see my horses almost daily while in training was great. (I’ve had some bad experiences in the past when I’ve sent youngsters off for training, so it was nice to keep an eye on things.) Living so close also came in very handy when one of us needed something.

She started out by filling her stalls with locals who weren’t necessarily interested in training or lessons. Then when starting her breeding program, she filled more stalls with a few TB mares that she could find “good deals” on. She bought a weanling tb/wb colt, then used him to live cover a couple mares when he was old enough to figure it out, then gelded him once the mares were in foal. Plus she had a few retirees herself and some other TBs she’d picked up for retraining and future sell. So what’s she’s ended up with is a barn full of primarily her own horses and a few boarders. That’s a lot of hay, and she’s the sole source of income in her family. Her acreage is limited; all are stalled. None of her mares are Euro approved; none of her youngsters are registered. I think originally she thought she’d start them all and sell them as riding horses, so being registered didn’t matter to her. Since she was not paying for a stud fee or inspections, etc., she thought she could make a profit with little initial investment – not taking into considerations when things went bad. One of her youngsters is a colt with a limb deformity and doubtful if he’ll ever make it as a performance horse, but she’s keeping him intact as a prospect for her future breeding stallion. I have major, major issues with her program and her decisions, and she knows my position. But to be fair, she has produced some nice babies. Her reputation is growing as a good trainer, and she has people on the waiting list to train with her but she literally doesn’t have a single available stall. Her horses are well cared for, as were mine when they were there. So up until the plight of her mare, her “program” was just a difference of opinion, i.e., nobody was getting hurt until now.:no:

This has been tough. For those of you who have suggested - as badly as I feel for this mare I can’t take her. :cry: I have two more horses than I have stalls myself. Of my 6, 1 is a rescue and 2 I bought days before they went to auction. I’m really not in a position to travel 4 thousand miles round trip to get a mare that’s not mine. But if she decides to go, I’ll offer to go with her. But I think a better idea is to scrap the FL family vacation plans, and go get the mare instead! Hell, I’ll even pay to have the mare euthanized if that can be guaranteed to happen. (I think a 5yo mare with the sorts of problems she has will have a bleak future, and is probably the best thing for her.) The problem is, I don’t know who she’s dealing with and how much of her information is reliable! And I abhor the fact that she's not more concerned herself.:mad:

I’ll keep you all posted. Again, sorry for the length. My bad decision today was that extra cup of coffee. ;) You all are a great sounding board. It’s really helped immensely!!!

[TKR]

I always respect what Kathy has to say and appreciate her fairness. However, this woman seems to be completely self-absorbed and using anything as an excuse to shed responsibility. I find the lack of compassion and responsibility in many of the decisions she's made more than I can deal with on a friendship level or business level. I hope you can help the mare in some way, but I don't think someone like this trainer (from your description) has much redeeming value. The horses seem to be more of a means to making $$ than any of the reasons that a good horseperson subscribes. JMHO!
PennyG

[Equine Reproduction]

<smile>...Don't get me wrong. If the woman is indeed has a total disregard for the animal's welfare, bust her chops. I've just learned to always (well...most of the time ;) ) stop, breath and listen. Occasionally there is more going on than may meet the eye. Good luck! Definitely not a pleasant predicament to be in.

[YankeeLawyer]

However, this woman seems to be completely self-absorbed and using anything as an excuse to shed responsibility. I find the lack of compassion and responsibility in many of the decisions she's made more than I can deal with on a friendship level or business level.

I thought that was pretty obvious from the first post - particularly the parts about her buying a cheap TB to breed, wanting to breed her despite a bad dystocia and founder, and then (mis)representing her to a potential buyer as a "proven" broodmare and attempting to dump her on someone else. And the OP apparently *had* tried to talk to the woman about the mare multiple times already.

I also have a visceral reaction to anyone who thinks you can just breed anything and make a huge profit by cutting all kinds of corners - you know, because the rest of us who do things correctly are just a bunch of idiots. But that is a separate issue ; ).

[Stacie]

Clearly there is a difference between getting to the top of your profession as a RIDER and being a horsewoman. This trainer has no sense.
Use her for what she is good at, riding and training, and ignore her advice for anything else. You're going to have to really listen to your intuition and do what you think is right for your OWN horses, none the less worry about what she is doing with her own.
Personally, I cannot stand people who are able to live in denial. You can't trust them to make intelligent informed decisions. Not someone I want to rely on.

[Movin Artfully]

I responded above, however I'm a bit taken aback by your additional "Rest of the story".

You seemed shocked by her conduct regarding this mare, but now it seems that you have had multiple issues with this woman:

One of her youngsters is a colt with a limb deformity and doubtful if he’ll ever make it as a performance horse, but she’s keeping him intact as a prospect for her future breeding stallion. I have major, major issues with her program and her decisions, and she knows my position.

If you find one of her actions unethical and decide to part ways, fine.

If you find "major, major issues" with her program, and decisions.... and YET YOU ARE STILL THERE...what does that say about you?

[PLeC]

I responded above, however I'm a bit taken aback by your additional "Rest of the story".

You seemed shocked by her conduct regarding this mare, but now it seems that you have had multiple issues with this woman:



If you find one of her actions unethical and decide to part ways, fine.

If you find "major, major issues" with her program, and decisions.... and YET YOU ARE STILL THERE...what does that say about you?

Yep, :sigh: valid question. How about old and tired. This is my last baby.

I’ve had bad experiences with other trainers in the past (drunk in the saddle and bad care or abusive training methods), yet those people were highly recommended. So I valued the convenience and ease of being able to monitor training and drop in unannounced. And my horses were progressing and doing very well. I put that above my principles, and was rationalizing misgivings away.

You’re right, sticking around was condoning the situation. Any jabs are deserved. I sincerely apologize to those who I upset by unburdening.

I have nothing else to report regarding the mare. The woman is not returning my calls, nor was she there when I dropped by.

Please keep jingling for the mare, though. I know COTH jingles are powerful!

[Movin Artfully]

No jabs intended :(

I forget sometimes how am lucky I am to have my horses at home, haul in for occasional clinics/lessons, and do most of the work myself after years of hauling/riding/showing/studying.

Growing up new to horses/competing, we definitely did not have that luxury...and had many bad trainer experiences as well. There are a lot of trainers we should have walked away from sooner than we did... but the Catch 22 is that you go to them to learn...and then learn much later that they were doing things badly. It is even more difficult to walk away when you do not live in a region with access to other trainers.

No judgement from here. Just make sure your own horses are safe and you are happy with your own conduct. That's all anyone can do, really :) I am sorry for the mare. Sadly, such is the life of an unwanted horse.