Which Registry Would You Choose ? Update On Post 52 !

[Elfe]

My OSB Trakehner mare foaled a colt by Sagnol.
Because the foal was born late and was a premie, I was unable to take mare and colt to the GOV inspection.
So, I can either register him as a half Trakehner or wait til next year and take the mare and him as a yearling to a GOV inspection.
From a marketing perspective which is the "better" option ? He is perfectly fine now and will be for sale in the future.
Thanks in advance.

[ann kitchel]

I would take him as a yearling to a GOV inspection. Your mare will have to be inspected as well. Have had many Trakehner/Oldenburg crosses and have opted for the German Oldenburg papers.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Your other option would be Register A Dutch.

[not again]

I would use the one that does the most for me. As a consumer, you need to educate yourself on the value of the registry you use, not just the cost. The registry should step up to the plate with specifics, not just platitudes! ;)

[Elfe]

Your other option would be Register A Dutch.

What are the requirements for the Dutch registry ?
Thanks.

[Elfe]

I would use the one that does the most for me. As a consumer, you need to educate yourself on the value of the registry you use, not just the cost. The registry should step up to the plate with specifics, not just platitudes! ;)

Cost is not what I was concerned about. I was hoping to get information about the very subject you raise !
Thanks.

[acottongim]

Completly agree with not again. This to me would be a personal pref and would depend on several things - the costs involved (registration of mare/colt, inspection of mare/colt, your own membership, and also the cost of going to the inspections). You also need to look at what the registery will do for you in terms of assistance with sale and awards, etc. The resale of the horse would play into it to a certain degree but the basic breeding of the horse isn't going to change. The difference would be if you want or think he needs to be approved as a stallion at some point... obviously the ATA isn't going to do that for you.

If you mare is OSB she is already registered/approved so you are just looking at papers on the foal. as a gelding it is a flat rate (I want to say around $150 but don't quote me on that may be more or less would have to look at the website) and you don't have to go through approvals at all (so no inspection costs). The perks with the ATA to remember is the part bred is elig for all PERFORMANCE awards (not in hand though) for HOY. If you or the buyer is a new member (first TK) you receive your first year's membership free - I think that includes part breds but would have to check. Membership with the ata is $75 a year unless it goes up.

I'm an ATA member so of course my horses are registered ATA even the part breds, but that is my personal choice.

For resale on a gelding I don't think (and I might be wrong on this) that the registery is going to be the make or break factor. The buyer is going to look at the breeding and the horse himself. Now if the buyer is an GOV person they might be upset and wish for something different, but the same logic could be applied to a buyer who is an ATA member...

Just my .02 worth. :D

[not again]

When I was registry shopping I called each registry and gave them my list of questions and a 5 minute chance to win me over. Just a thought.....

[Fairview Horse Center]

I believe Sagnol foals out of Erkend studblook mares are eligible for Register A Dutch. You should give them a call. Their office is staffed and very helpful.

[Amoroso]

I'd go GOV as well...

[Elfe]

I'd go GOV as well...

Because..........
TIA

[Dressage_Diva333]

If I were in your position, I would go with GOV.

I've had wonderful experiances with them, they are very helpful and knowledgable. The costs are quite reasonable. Part-bred Trakehner papers don't really mean anything to me. Although for a gelding, it shouldn't make too much of a different. I'd go with the full GOV registration, from a resale point of view. I don't know the costs involved in the ATA though. I'd weigh all the options; cost, inspection site, time of year, purpose of horse, etc.. then make the final decision.

[graystonefarm]

It depends on what the mare's pedigree is. Who is her sire and damsire?

[graystonefarm]

The reason I ask about your mare's pedigree is that if her sire did not complete a 70 day stallion testing, or if he doesnt have a successful competition record, your mare may not be eligible for MMB. It is my understanding that the ATA's stallion testing requirements do not meet the european warmblood stallion testing standards.

[Elfe]

The reason I ask about your mare's pedigree is that if her sire did not complete a 70 day stallion testing, or if he doesnt have a successful competition record, your mare may not be eligible for MMB. It is my understanding that the ATA's stallion testing requirements do not meet the european warmblood stallion testing standards.

He did not and she isn't eligible for the MMB, although that rule seems to be applied rather "randomly". I am not too concerned about this aspect since the little boy will be a gelding.
I was more interested in finding out what people's experiences were in regards to selling with papers of one registry over another. Seems to me that all the registries are similar in what they offer their members, so I was wondering which has the most "visibility", that would attract the interest of prospective buyers. IOW's, when going, say, on Dreamhorse, where would a buyer first go: Trakehners, Oldenburg, Dutch, or.......?
Thanks !

PS This is her pedigree:http://americantrakehner.com/Mares/Exceptional/AnnalieseLS_M.htm

[DownYonder]

I would normally say to go with Oldenburg (GOV), but there is always a risk in waiting another year if the mare isn't already approved. If you lose the mare before she can be presented at an Oldenburg inspection, the foal would not be eligible for Oldenburg registration papers. So in this case, you may be better off going with the half-Trakehner papers. I don't know if part-breds are eligible for ATA awards, though, so you might want to check into that aspect.

And BTW, Oldenburg's rules for MMB eligibility are not applied "randomly" and are in fact quite specific.

[graystonefarm]

Your mare is lovely!

Personally, I'd go with GOV. Sagnol is not Trak. He is an Oldenburg stallion.

[Shawnda N]

Part bred ATA registered horses are eligible for all performance awards. There are also trophies, cash awards, etc. that he would also be eligible for if he were to compete. You only need to pay the reg. fee send in the DNA, and in a couple of weeks, you have your papers.

[Elfe]

I would normally say to go with Oldenburg (GOV), but there is always a risk in waiting another year if the mare isn't already approved. If you lose the mare before she can be presented at an Oldenburg inspection, the foal would not be eligible for Oldenburg registration papers. So in this case, you may be better off going with the half-Trakehner papers. I don't know if part-breds are eligible for ATA awards, though, so you might want to check into that aspect.

And BTW, Oldenburg's rules for MMB eligibility are not applied "randomly" and are in fact quite specific.
Yes, the rules are very specific.
Yet, I have seen mares entered into the MMB whose sires did not meet the requirements.
There was a thread about this about a year ago with specific examples, no need to rehash.

[kulacrosse]

I would wait and go to the GOV inspection. Here's why: the ATA treats Part Trakehners (studbook D) like second class citizens until they are performance horses. This is a recent change, so as a breeder, I fear their next step. In other words, until recently studbook D horses could compete for year end awards on the line as young horses. This made sense as the young horses are representing their parents and are being judged as performance prospects. I don't remember exactly which year, but in the last few years they were excluded from DSHB All Breeds year end awards. This does not apply to TB and Arab crosses, which are in a different studbook.

I was in a similar situation, having bred a nice Trakehner mare to a non-Trakehner stallion and not making the decision until after the foal was born. I figured (at the time) papers are papers, so long as there are papers. As my son was born the same year, the whole inspection process didn't seem worthwhile for a gelding. I brought her the following year, she was accepted, and her foal was declared Premium. I have definitely found that it makes a different impression on people depending if I have to say Oldenburg/Trakehner cross or just Oldenburg. If I just say one of the two warmblood breeds followed by cross, the reaction is even worse. Both geldings are equally nice and have wins on the line to prove it.

If you're concerned that your mare might not be approved you could find out if you could register the foal late through the ATA. I haven't looked into that before, but suspect you can. In fact, it might even be cheaper if he's already gelded.

[Fairview Horse Center]

if her sire did not complete a 70 day stallion testing, or if he doesnt have a successful competition record, your mare may not be eligible for MMB.

Unless the mare is a TB or Arabian, and then the sire has no performance requirement. Funny how they demand so much more of stallions that are generations of their own, than they do from the TBs & Arabs.

[Forte]

Good point Fairview. I've never understood why a warmblood mare has to have 4 generations of european approved stallions to qualify for MMB but TBs don't have to any approved blood and they get into the MMB.

[Fairview Horse Center]

The reason is to make you play the game. The Dutch registry rules have taken this issue into their program, and used their common sense. They put more trust into the pedigree, which if the program has done it's job, is where it should be. Does all of this careful breeding work or not? Why does ANY registry put more trust into a JC TB bred for racing, than generations of Warmbloods bred for Okympic sport?

[Oakstable]

Sagnol is in a number of registeries so you could look at each one's requirements.

Daryln, neither sire nor dam are Dutch so I'm not sure what you have in mind for going Register B with them.

I have a similar dilemma. I have two boys out of an imported Trakehner mare. I bred her first to a stallion in the Hanoverian jumping program, expecting to get a C of P if it was a boy. It turned out that I couldn't get AHS papers because she is a Trakehner and he is actually Westphalian.

With the second mating, I used an Oldenburg stallion. She certainly has the pedigree for MMB but we just didn't get to an inspection and didn't file the paperwork before the deadline of his yearling year.

I am perfectly fine with C of Ps on geldings as they can qualify for year-end awards. In fact, my first baby was a Register D Trakehner and earned top USDF year-end awards for the ATA.

He wasn't bred to be sold so Register D was a non issue.

I hesitate on papers that say "half" on sale horses.

That said, C of P with GOV is quite expensive. I think the C of P on geldings with ATA is $35.

The mare needs to be DNA-ed and you should get that done NOW before anything happens to her.

With a filly, I would work hard to get registration papers, not a C of P.

Can you get Canadian papers on this baby?

[Fairview Horse Center]

Sagnol's website says he is approved for Dutch Register A. The mare is an Erkend Studbook mare. Call the Dutch office, but it looks like that makes the foal eligible for Dutch Register A papers. Personally, I would go that route, even if the GOV inspection was still coming up this year.

[Oakstable]

OSB mares can be sired by ATA stallions or Verband stallions. The KWPN NA has not recognized ATA stallions because of their modest testing for approval. They MIGHT make exceptions for individuals? You could ask but it really seems a long shot for THIS baby given reasons I gave in my earlier post.

Does GOV recognize ATA OSB mares for MMB?

I think GOV needs to inspect the mare and foal even for C of P. I don't think you need to go to an inspection for the ATA.

Crossing a Trakehner with a mare or stallion from another European registry is done all the time in Europe. It can become rather complicated here.

I am going to look into Canadian papers for my two young geldings. I got their USEF numbers.

[Oakstable]

Wow, a "model" mare.

I think you might get Register A papers if you present the mare to the Dutch jury and she is approved for Main Mare Book status.

She would be eligible since her sire was approved in Germany.

I really don't think you can get Register A Dutch papers without having her inspected.

It is free to ask, tho.

Again, why not go Canadian with this youngster?

[Oakstable]

Pyatt Charley was approved in Europe. Did he not complete the performance testing?

She is out of a Herzzauber-sired mare. Pretty nice.

I'd say that mare would be appreciated in any of the registeries.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Definitely worth a call to the Dutch Warmblood Registry.

The Dutch registry has really liooked at all of their breeders needs, and created a registry to support those needs, the same thing they have done here with the Hunter book. Looking at the rankings, it seems to be working great! ;)

[DownYonder]

Yes, the rules are very specific.
Yet, I have seen mares entered into the MMB whose sires did not meet the requirements.
There was a thread about this about a year ago with specific examples, no need to rehash.

I have discussed this numerous times with the Florida and German offices and have been told that mares are sometimes erroneously put in MMB at North American Oldenburg inspections because the inspection team is unfamiliar with stallions in their pedigrees but gives them the benefit of the doubt if the mare comes in with full papers from an acknowledged registry. Once the pedigree is fully reviewed by the office and there are ineligible stallions discovered in her pedigree, these mares are downgraded to the appropriate mare book. Case in point would be a registered Trakehner mare with stallions in her pedigree that did not complete performance requirements to Oldenburg's standards. Or a registered ISR/ONA mare sired by an unlicensed warmblood stallion. Or a mare of any registry that was conceived after a stallion lost his breeding license due to not completing the performance requirements. I have also been told by the German office that the registry cannot make exceptions to its MMB rules because doing so might jeopardize its license to operate in Germany.

[DownYonder]

Does GOV recognize ATA OSB mares for MMB?

Yes, if the mare meets the pedigree requirements for MMB.

[DownYonder]

Unless the mare is a TB or Arabian, and then the sire has no performance requirement. Funny how they demand so much more of stallions that are generations of their own, than they do from the TBs & Arabs.

They basically consider warmbloods to be crossbreds, and not true breeds yet. That is why they have inspection and performance requirements for warmblood stallions.

[Oakstable]

http://www.americantrakehner.com/stallions/PyattCharly.asp

Here is the sire of the mare with my photo.

[Oakstable]

So this hinges for GOV on whether Pyatt Charly did the performance testing in Germany before importation? Even for a C of P for a gelding?

Pyatt Charly was a rising star but euthanized tragically due to a spinal injury.

I think the KWPN will also look at Pyatt Charly's approval history.

Back to the OP's question -- the ATA has its own performance requirements for stallion approval and this does bite Trakehners later on in the context of how other registeries accept or decline ATA-sired offspring.

IMO, the status of a gelding's papers is pretty much a non issue when it comes to sales.

If we were discussing a filly, it would be another discussion, of course.

[Fairview Horse Center]

the ATA has its own performance requirements for stallion approval and this does bite Trakehners later on in the context of how other registeries accept or decline ATA-sired offspring.

Yes, and that is unfortunate because their performance requirement is at the same level (Jumping and dressage) as the 100 Day Testing is, but is done at a Horse Trial/Event, rather than a testing.

[Elfe]

Pyatt Charly was approved in Germany but did not do his performance test in Europe. Therefore this mare would not be eligible for the GOV MMB. I don't have any particular issues with this, the gelding would get papers and that is all I really care about. The mare has been DNA'd for the ATA and if anything happened between now and the next GOV inspection I would still have the option of registering him as a part Trakehner.
I have a call into the NA KWPN, will see what they come up with.
My main question was which of all these options would give this boy the most visibility when the time comes to sell him.
I appreciate all the comments, it really helps having a lot of input.

[Elfe]

I have discussed this numerous times with the Florida and German offices and have been told that mares are sometimes erroneously put in MMB at North American Oldenburg inspections because the inspection team is unfamiliar with stallions in their pedigrees but gives them the benefit of the doubt if the mare comes in with full papers from an acknowledged registry. Once the pedigree is fully reviewed by the office and there are ineligible stallions discovered in her pedigree, these mares are downgraded to the appropriate mare book. Case in point would be a registered Trakehner mare with stallions in her pedigree that did not complete performance requirements to Oldenburg's standards. Or a registered ISR/ONA mare sired by an unlicensed warmblood stallion. Or a mare of any registry that was conceived after a stallion lost his breeding license due to not completing the performance requirements. I have also been told by the German office that the registry cannot make exceptions to its MMB rules because doing so might jeopardize its license to operate in Germany.

DY: at some point I had a list of mares who I had found,whose sires did not meet the criteria for them to be in the MMB and yet they were.
I can't find them right now, except for one, which I will PM you with. Please notice that she was originally with the NATA, before ATA and NATA merged. The way I understand it, the NATA did not even inspect mares and had no performance requirement for stallions.

[graystonefarm]

FWIW, when horse shopping, I never look at Trakehners. I always look at Oldenburgs and Hanoverians.

[Elfe]

From the KWPN-NA site:
Register A (Reg A) generally includes foals

* by: Licensed stallions, stallions from an Erkend studbook or non-Erkend Thoroughbred stallions;
* out of: KWPN Foalbook, Studbook, Register A, Register B, Auxiliary Foalbook, Auxiliary Studbook, Thoroughbred or Erkend Studbook mares. Register A foals are eligible for keuring premium grading classes. Horses registered in the Register A may be presented for studbook as long as the horse completes any compulsory additional requirements. These may include radiographs, endoscopy and/or performance. For more detailed information on additional requirements see box at bottom of page.

According to the Dreamscape website Sagnol is KWPN licensed in Register A.
http://www.dreamscapefarm.com/HorseDetail.aspx?ID=2

So the real question is whether or not an ATA OSB mare is considered Erkend. I could not locate that info on the KWPN website.

[kulacrosse]

The ATA didn't used to inspect mares either. That started after the two associations merged, if I remember the timeline correctly. When my mare was entered, the GOV inspectors were careful to ensure that her sire did his performance test in Germany prior to importation. I don't remember the same level of attention being paid to her dam, though she was inspected in Germany prior to importation as well. I don't know if she did a Mare Performance Test.

Looks like you're in a bit of a pickle. Good luck!

[kulacrosse]

KWPN Erkend Studbooks - North American Studbooks
Trakehner - Stallions approved in N.A. must meet additional requirements for reciprocal status with the Trakehner Verband. Stallions with reciprical status are considered to be from an Erkend studbook. Mares born in N.A. are considered Erkend if their sire was approved in Germany or has reciprocal status with the Trakehner Verband.

[kulacrosse]

I tried to look quickly, but couldn't find it on the Trakehner Verband website, possibly due to the fact that he's deceased. I believe you have to find out if Pyatt Charly was considered fully approved for breeding in Germany. To me it sounds like the KWPN is your best bet. Good luck!

[Elfe]

I tried to look quickly, but couldn't find it on the Trakehner Verband website, possibly due to the fact that he's deceased. I believe you have to find out if Pyatt Charly was considered fully approved for breeding in Germany. To me it sounds like the KWPN is your best bet. Good luck!

Thanks for the info.
The way I understand it is that Pyatt Charly was approved in Germany in 1999. Usually Trakehner stallions get a temporary breeding license upon approval, I am assuming this is what happened with him. That license gets revoked if the stallion does not complete his performance requirement within a certain time frame ( ?????).
If for a mare to be Erkend by the WKPN it is sufficient that she be by an "approved" stallion as opposed to one that has also passed his performance test, then my mare should be OK.

[graystonefarm]

Thanks for the info.
The way I understand it is that Pyatt Charly was approved in Germany in 1999. Usually Trakehner stallions get a temporary breeding license upon approval, I am assuming this is what happened with him. That license gets revoked if the stallion does not complete his performance requirement within a certain time frame ( ?????).
If for a mare to be Erkend by the WKPN it is sufficient that she be by an "approved" stallion as opposed to one that has also passed his performance test, then my mare should be OK.

If your mare was born during the time period during which Phatt Charly still had his temp breeding license with the Trak Verband, I believe your mare would qualify for GOV MMB.

[Oakstable]

In the past, an ATA OSB mare was not accepted by the KWPN.

I have two OSB mares. One was imported and one was bred in Canada with frozen semen. Her sire won the approvals and the stallion testing.

In my case their size could be an issue. Both under 15.2H.

Keep us posted on what you decide to do.

You have a lovely mare and I'd like to see photos of her Sagnol baby.

[Elfe]

I talked to the WKPN-NA office today. According to the lady I spoke to, the foal would be eligible for register "A", provided the dam's sire was approved in Germany. I asked whether approved (as opposed to having passed a performance test) was enough and she said it was.
However they have to get the approval information directly from the German Trakehner Verband before we can proceed.
Thanks for all the input, I will let you know what happens.
Oakstable: thanks for the compliments, I will try to upload the pix somewhere and post the link.

[Oakstable]

Ele,
Does your mare have to be inspected by the KWPN jury?

That's the only way she gets into their Mare Books.

[Elfe]

Ele,
Does your mare have to be inspected by the KWPN jury?

That's the only way she gets into their Mare Books.

I don't know the answer to this.
The only thing they told me is that they were checking on the approval of the mare's sire, Pyatt Charly.
According to the KWPN-NA website, a foal out of an Erkend studbook mare by an Erkend stallion is eligible for Register "A".
Maybe Fairview Horse Center can chime in.
Thanks.

[Oakstable]

Eligible means Eligible.

There are requirements.

I'm on my third generation of Dutch horses.

I bought an imported Star mare at her age of 17. I have her two daughters, now in their mid-teens. I have three fillies in the third generation ages 4, 3 and 1.

My reading of the rules would be that the mare may be eligible to be inspected for the Dutch mare books. Then if she is in a book, then you can breed her to a stallion that fits the requirements for Register a.

I have Register A kids out of one of my Dutch mares.

Your mare is very nice and well bred. Looking forward to photos.

[Fairview Horse Center]

As far as I know, if she is an Erkend studbook mare, she does not have to be inspected to have registerable foals. She would have to be inspected to be in the Dutch studbook.

[DownYonder]

DY: at some point I had a list of mares who I had found,whose sires did not meet the criteria for them to be in the MMB and yet they were.
I can't find them right now, except for one, which I will PM you with. Please notice that she was originally with the NATA, before ATA and NATA merged. The way I understand it, the NATA did not even inspect mares and had no performance requirement for stallions.

I would be interested in seeing that list, if you can find it. The sales ad that you linked to in your PM only says that particular mare was "approved for the Oldenburg main mare book". I am guessing they mean ISR/ONA, because there is no record of that mare in the mare books of the Oldenburg Verband.

Also, FWIW, I took an Oldenburg inspector to a friend's farm a few years ago, to inspect a Trakehner mare and her Sempatico filly that had been born after our regular inspection here. The mare scored high enough for MMB, but could only be put in PMBII because her sire had been licensed by NATA and no one could find any record of him ever completing any performance requirements.

At any rate - it seems that if the Dutch would register your foal without inspecting your mare, than that may be the way to go. However, if they do need to inspect your mare, your best bet might be to get the part ATA papers instead. The foal is a colt and will most likely be gelded, so the mare book of his dam or the type of papers that will be issued is not as important as for a filly.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

[Elfe]

This morning I heard back from the WKPN-NA.
The mare's sire, Pyatt Charly, was approved by the Trakehner Verband in Germany but lost his approval when he came to the US (I am guessing because he did not do his German performance test).
Because of this, the mare is not Erkend and therefore the foal can only be registered in Book "B".
So, I can either:
1. Register him in the WKPN-NA book "B"
2. Register him as a part Trakehner
3. Take dam and yearling to GOV inspection next year, get mare in pre-book 1 (or whatever it's called, can't remember right now) and gelding registered in the appropriate book.

I have no opinion at this point and have until the end of 2009 to decide. I guess to make a decision, I should also consider who I breed the mare to next year.
Thanks for all the input and please feel free to add suggestions.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Here are a few questions to help you decide.
Which registry has been the easiest to get answers from?
Do you want to go to an inspection next year? and each year to get papers?
Keep your options open if you need to inspect in case something happens to the mare.
Will you need to haul a 2010 foal with the mare and your current year's foal to the GOV inspection?
What will be the options for a filly in the future for breeding?

If your mare has not been DNA typed, you should get that done as you will need it for any registration, and it will at least give you some proof if something happens to the mare.
$40
http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/horse.php

[Elfe]

Here are a few questions to help you decide.
Which registry has been the easiest to get answers from?
Do you want to go to an inspection next year? and each year to get papers?
Keep your options open if you need to inspect in case something happens to the mare.
Will you need to haul a 2010 foal with the mare and your current year's foal to the GOV inspection?
What will be the options for a filly in the fuure for breeding?

Thanks Fairview, very good points.
I guess what has transpired from all this is that, no matter who I breed the mare to(other than an ATA stallion), the foal will always be in a lower book because of the lack of ATA performance requirement equivalent to those of other warmblood registries.
While this is not really important for a gelding it obviously becomes relevant for a filly.
Food for thought !
Thanks again.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Now to get to the important part of making the decision...

What logo do you think will look best on his halter plate, saddle pad, your hat and shirt, etc??

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Oakstable]

This is a very worthwhile thread.

OP, I am getting the impression you do not want to go Canadian for this youngster.

??

[Elfe]

This is a very worthwhile thread.

OP, I am getting the impression you do not want to go Canadian for this youngster.

??

I really have not looked into it, but I will.
Will also look into ISR-OLDNA, not so much for this foal but because I was considering breeding this mare to Donarweiss.
Thanks again !