TB peeps - Giant's Causeway mare for sport horse breeding?

[DownYonder]

A friend just told me that her sister in law has rescued a Giant's Causeway mare on the way to a dump auction. She is apparently quite nicely put together but is unsound from a training injury. She wants to breed her to a WB stallion for hunters. How do the GC mares look for sport horse breeding? I am not sure about the mare's bottom line - my friend didn't know.

[omare]

well with 125,000 stud fee I would expect the mare line has got to be good?! Giant Causeway has blushing groom in the dam line which leads to wild risk (??) and that whole jumping line...but one wonders if she might have more value as a racehorse broodmare? Fascinating what turns up! Good luck to your friend-very exicitng!

[Iron Horse Farm]

Personally, I think that his line screams hunter or jumpers, but with the stud fee, even injured mares usually end up as racing broodmares.

[DMK]

giant's causeway was successful at classic euro distances on the turf, that's a good thing.

his dam line has blushing groom and hail to reason x2 mariah's storm (his dam) is a very succesful broodmare - GC, while her best runner, was no fluke. For another example of what she can produce, roar of the tiger is a full brother to GC (he stands in FL and is well put together).

Storm Cat has a rep for siring tough babies, but they obviously have a work ethic, but i believe if we were to give them a performance term, it's that they may not be ammy proof (next up, 30 bbers tell me about there 3x removed storm cats that babysit 4 children and 2 litters of puppies).

Storm cat's damsire is Terlingua, who is out of Crimson Saint. Crimson Saint is the dam of Royal Acadamy, and i believe i was reading an article by some famous wb breeder who was going on about getting that line introduced in germany (but maybe i'm totally misremembering?)

there you go, all the close up info on GC. of course it all depends on the dam of this mare, but one kind of hopes they put a good distance bred mare to him, rather than an uber american sprinter.

[juliet]

Could we get a little more info?

[DownYonder]

They are trying to track down the mare's papers now. I also think she may have more value as a race broodmare since her sire's stud fee is so high, and it is a little bit weird that she was dumped. Apparently the previous owner "disappeared", leaving a lot of unpaid bills, and the trainer tried to sell the mare for breeding but was unsuccessful, so he sent her off on a truck with a bunch of other injured TBs from his string. There was paperwork with the mare indicating that she was by GC, and the lady who rescued her is working on a positive ID by tattoo. She has no interest in breeding the mare for the track, though - says "that world dumped the mare" and she will not return her to it.

[omare]

well it is not immoral to breed horses for the track (at least in my mind!) Horses end up in bad places not because of the sport they are in but the people they are associated with and bad people are in all discplines of the horse world.

[DMK]

well it is not immoral to breed horses for the track (at least in my mind!) Horses end up in bad places not because of the sport they are in but the people they are associated with and bad people are in all discplines of the horse world.

i know, my first thought was "broad brush, much?" then i remembered broad brush was an awfully nice stallion, so no, maybe not. ;)

i guess if you rescued horses and never returned any rescues from the types of careers from whence they came, you'd probably really limit your ability to place horses in good homes!

[Muleskick]

i know, my first thought was "broad brush, much?" then i remembered broad brush was an awfully nice stallion, so no, maybe not. ;)

i guess if you rescued horses and never returned any rescues from the types of careers from whence they came, you'd probably really limit your ability to place horses in good homes!

Ditto!!!

[cottagefarm]

Really need to know the mare line and if there is any black type to know if she has any value as a TB broodmare prospect.
The market is flooded right now so just because the stallion has $125,000 stud fee doesn't mean much in TB circles.
Is she being offered for free or at a price?

[Maryanne Nicpon]

The Fasig Tipton yearling sale was earlier this week in Saratoga. Giant's Causeway offspring are still bringing a lot of money. Three sold in this sale for $425K, $100K and $250K. There was also a filly in the sale by Smart Strike, with Giant's Causeway as the dam-sire. That filly sold for $875K. I'd do some research and breed this mare to a race stallion.

[DownYonder]

Thanks, everyone for your help. The papers are going to be the problem here, but the lady who rescued the mare says if she can't get them, so be it. She has become quite fond of the mare and is planning to breed her to a WB stallion for a hunter foal. I have given her info on WB registries that will take non-papered TB mares into their lowest mare books, so that is an option for her to have a registered foal. She said if she does get the mare's papers and she does prove to be a GC daughter or from other good race bloodlines, she may consider using a TB stallion at some point, but she does not want to send the mare off for breeding, so that will be a problem. At any rate, the mare is now safe, well-cared for and valued, even without her papers.

[Laurierace]

Papers are not an issue with breeding TB foals. The only problem you would have is if you tried to sell the mare at a public auction like Fasig-Tipon as they must have their foal papers in order to go through the sale. You can still register the foals and sell them at a public auction.

[grayarabpony]

Is she tatooed?

[DMK]

actually, DY, that's a good point that i never thought about. will WB registries consider a tattoo the same as papers? because it's as good a guarantee of TB registry as papers. maybe more so. papers can be swapped, tattoos are a bit more tricky to attach to an imposter. ;)

[omare]

I think I woudl be overwhelmed with curiousity and run with the tattoo (as suggested ) to track down her bloodlines-- I woud have a hard time believing that if she is a GC mare (???) her dam is anything ordinary (both because of his stud fee and I would think he had/ has a discriminating book as they want to "make" him as a stallion.

(It is also hard to think a trainer would have dumped her if she was so bred but i guess it can happen.)

[Equilibrium]

Not knowing the age of the mare, she could also be from his European crop too. So would be interesting to get a tattoo look up if possible.

Terri

[DownYonder]

Papers are not an issue with breeding TB foals. The only problem you would have is if you tried to sell the mare at a public auction like Fasig-Tipon as they must have their foal papers in order to go through the sale. You can still register the foals and sell them at a public auction.

So the stud farms don't require proof of ownership on the mares that come in for breeding? Or proof of pedigree?

[Laurierace]

No.

[DownYonder]

So people can use rescued TB mares for race breeding, without having to produce any documentation that they actually own the mare? IOW, JC doesn't even care who the legitimate owner of a mare is? They will register her foals without proof of ownership? What if one of those foals turns out to be successful? Can the mare's actual owner of record lay claim to the foal?

[Laurierace]

No they don't care. They do care about DNA though so make sure you are in fact talking about the mare you think you are.

[DownYonder]

How do they prevent the owner of record from trying to lay claim to the foals?

FWIW, there was apparently a notebook with the horses that described the mare as "XXXXX (can't remember her name), by Giant's Causeway out of XXXXX". It also had her age, color, and markings. The lady who has her now is getting in touch with JC to get info on the protocol for tattoo ID. She is a little bit shocked to realize that the mare may have value as a race broodmare. She knows very little about the racing world and isn't too sure she wants to get involved, so I am going to put her in touch with a contact in the TB business in KY so she can discuss the options.

[Laurierace]

The jockey club is the keeper of the TB pedigree database only. They could care less who owns what. If the owners were to try to claim the foal or whatever you said they would tell them they don't have anything to do with that.
Edited to add that even though its unofficial you can change the ownership on the JC website to reflect the new ownership. I can't shake the feeling that you were mislead however and this mare isn't who you think she is.

[DownYonder]

If JC doesn't care who owns what, then why won't they release papers on rescued mares without the consent of the owner of record? There is a thread on the racing forum right now about someone trying to get a rescued TB mare's papers so she can use her for Hanoverian breeding.

At any rate, we will see what the tattoo ID reflects on this mare. I, too, am a bit suspicous about the whole thing, but again - there was that page in the notebook from the trainer that described the mare to a "T". If it is a GC mare, then lucky, lucky for the lady that rescued her. It it isn't, then someone somewhere is running a scam.

[Laurierace]

They won't "release" the papers in that situation because they do not have them to release. The former owner has them and they are his to do what he wants with them. They would create duplicate papers if they were presented with all the required info including a statement as to how the papers were lost or destroyed which obviously they were neither. Again, they don't care about ownership. They allow people to record it on their site as a courtesy not a necessity.

[DownYonder]

So in this instance, since the "owner" has disappeared, would that meet the "lost papers" criteria?

[Laurierace]

Not likely but possibly.

[Fred]

Best of luck to your friend with this mare. I'm happy that she is safe and has a good home, no matter what her name is, who her sire is, or whom she is bred to.
Please keep us updated.

[grayarabpony]

Just say the papers have disappeared, which apparently they have. I got a duplicate set of papers for my TB mare.

[sfstable]

How do they prevent the owner of record from trying to lay claim to the foals?

FWIW, there was apparently a notebook with the horses that described the mare as "XXXXX (can't remember her name), by Giant's Causeway out of XXXXX". It also had her age, color, and markings. The lady who has her now is getting in touch with JC to get info on the protocol for tattoo ID. She is a little bit shocked to realize that the mare may have value as a race broodmare. She knows very little about the racing world and isn't too sure she wants to get involved, so I am going to put her in touch with a contact in the TB business in KY so she can discuss the options.

You can search the tattoo for free on www.jockeyclub.com. If you don't have an account (it is free) then you will have to apply for one first. If you can figure out the tattoo or a good portion it is useful search. If you don't want to apply for an account, PM me and I will be glad to run it for you.