Foal turnout how much is too much, how little is not enough? Update on t/o "solution"

[Dune]

I have a friend that has a lovely Friesian colt this year from her mare. He is now 3 months old. She is basically raising him with his mom in a 24x24 corral with turnout into a sandy arena for *maybe* an hour a day. She's a newbie, and asked my opinion on whether or not this was enough for the foal's development. OF course, I said it wasn't, but her trainer says, "It's not ideal, but we're not doing him any harm either." I have NO idea why she asked my opinion. :winkgrin::lol: Other than just voicing my opinion/feeling (for whatever that's worth:rolleyes:), are there any articles that I could point her toward? Or is her trainer right, and it's "not doing any harm"??? I just feel bad for the little guy. There are no health issues that would preclude him from being turned out 24/7 other than, since he's black and a heat-sensitive breed, having some shade. Thanks for any and all help!:)

[JB]

There are indeed studies out there that show that foals raised in stalls (which is pretty much was a 24x24 pen is) have less bone density than foals raised outsite.

There are studies that show hoof development is not up to par in foals who have limited movement compared to those who are moving a lot, especially on firmer ground (ie 24x7 on sand is not nearly as healthy as even 12 hours on harder packed ground).

It just makes sense, I mean really :) Horses evolved as creatures of movement. It makes and keeps limber muscles and ligaments and tendons, it helps digestion, it's just not healthy to be penned up for 23 hours a day.

[BBowen]

Not a breeder here, but when I bred my mare, we were in a boarding barn. It was imperative that she was able to be raised with plenty of turnout and with other babies. We moved to a breeding farm that had some boarders. When my filly was at her dam's side, they were out all day with other mares and foals and brought in at night.

When she was weaned, she was turned out with other weanlings. The farm has a huge barn that is sectioned off into four large pens (age/sex of youngsters can be separated appropriately). Those pens opened to a large paddock, which opened up to about an 8-acre pasture. Youngsters could go in and out as they pleased. They were fed hay and grain twice a day in addition to pasture and the pens were set up with automatic waterers. It was ideal for youngsters in my opinion.

So, I would not think your friend's baby has near enough turnout for proper development mentally or physically. Youngsters need to be able to run and play preferably with other youngsters. If there are no other youngsters, then a good baby sitter mare or gelding.

[JB]

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=731
The foal will benefit from the fresh air of being outside, which will reduce its chances of contracting a respiratory infection. Studies have shown that stallbound foals are affected by the ammonia content in the air. The musculoskeletal system in terms of bones, muscles, and cartilage also will benefit from the exercise the foal gets when it is turned out.


While the benefits outweigh the risks of normal exercise, there are some potential problems to watch out for. First, you should make sure the foal does not over-indulge in exercise. Many dams, especially younger ones, have the tendency to run at full speed in the field, and their foals have trouble keeping up. Dams with this behavior should be turned out in smaller pens so their foals can keep up with them without overdoing it.

http://www.thehorse.com/viewarticle.aspx?ID=1275

Keeping a foal in a stall around-the-clock might keep his coat shiny and his body free of nicks and bumps from roughhousing with peers in the pasture, but in the long run, that could cause him serious problems as an active adult. P. René van Weeren, DVM, PhD, Dipl. ECVS, of Utrecht University in the Netherlands, and his colleagues have determined that pasture turnout for a foal in its first year has the most beneficial effect on the four major parts of the musculoskeletal system--cartilage, tendons and ligaments, muscle, and bone. He also determined that even tissues deemed difficult to repair, such as tendons and articular cartilage, are sensitive to remodeling in this age group.

In a surprising twist, horses which were kept in a box stall for five months, then turned out, were able to "make up lost ground" with respect to GAG content in articular cartilage and tendon and bone mineral density. But their inactivity had a long-term effect on the biochemical makeup of collagen in the articular cartilage. The composition of that tissue relates to the biomechanical behavior of the limb, which means that the exercise management of foals could directly determine their resistance to injury.--

[twofatponies]

I would think it's also beneficial to be out on something other than a groomed arena or pen surface, because the foal learns to balance his body on slopes, rough ground, divots, stones, etc. Thoroughbred foals are (around here anyway) out in huge hilly pastures until weaning, where they can run, jump and carry on and condition themselves in preparation for the demands of training. Bigger breeders with the land to do it have the foals/dams out in large rolling pastures until weaning (though near enough to the barns to keep an eye on everyone) and then the youngstock turned out in even bigger range-like pastures for several years before they are brought in for training. They learn a lot about their bodies, develop their muscles, learn good sense about watching their footing and navigating rough terrain and water, as well as social herd skills.

At a smaller farm that's not always possible, but the more turnout the better, I think, for youngsters.

[siegi b.]

Three letters...... O C D

[Donella]

Three letters...... O C D

Yup. Many studies have been done on raising foals with turnout vs none. It is now just a fact that those raised without turnout are at a much higher risk for DOD's especially OCD.

Akkk, especialy with a Friesian, thats just insane.

[Daydream Believer]

My foals live out 24/7 as soon as the weather warms up enough. I've had very little problems that way.

[YankeeLawyer]

Not to be rude, but they need to consider whether they are raising milk-fed veal or an athlete. There is a reason calves are kept in cages - and it is not to promote strong muscle and bone development.

That said, mine are turned out the majority of the day (or night, depending on the season) but are in a few hours (up to 8) out of 24 if the weather is extreme and/or the bugs are bad. The rest of the time they are turned out in large pastures with rolling hills.

[Sugarbrook]

After the initial adjustment period with the dam, mine are out 24/7.

[Tornado Run Farm]

Not to be rude, but they need to consider whether they are raising milk-fed veal or an athlete. There is a reason calves are kept in cages - and it is not to promote strong muscle and bone development.

Yes, ask them if they have an interest in raising "Fohlenfillet." The Swiss LOVE it! ;)

On another note - I have nothing to support this, just my own experience. Foals restricted during early development also seem to have issues later on with cribbing. I've seen it over and over - a higher instance of yearlings or 2yo's that developed that "stall" vice were those that were restricted in turnout as foals or developing young horses.

I think even standing around in the shade or shelter stomping flies has benefit - those stomps are producing concussion to bone. How does a body repair those microscopic fractures? It lays down more bone.

[SmartAlex]

I've been thinking about this. We only raise one foal at a time, and we struggle with being over protective, so I know where she's coming from. But I am becoming more and more of an advocate of as much turn out as possible over as much varied terrain as possible. If nothing else, the colt will grow up with at least a large enough frame of reference to help it distinguish between a boulder/tree stump and a monster. That is a skill that will come in very handy later in life when hacking down the road. :D

[Tiki]

Yup, a great way to induce OCD. My foals live out 24/7 with a run-in shed - IF they use it. Hilly ground rather than flat. Doesn't have to be too hilly (after all, that makes the legs shorter on one side, right? ;););)) but uneven terrain makes confident, sure-footed youngsters.

[dr j]

Unless there is a medical issue that requires limited turnout/stall rest, there is no such thing as "too much" turnout. He would benefit greatly from 24/7 turnout.

[Waterwitch]

Our foals are confined part-time for 1-2 weeks after birth (foaling stall and small paddock). After that they are out in the field 24-7 with access to bedded run-in sheds.

[Signature]

Same as Waterwitch. They should be out as much as possible. Our first foal crop was raised 12 hours in/12 hours out and developed temporary wood chewing problems (resolved upon 24 hr t/o) and were unruly to handle after stall-keeping due to excess energy buildup. Now they are quiet, well mannered, no behavior issues and are well-socialized and very happy!

[Dune]

OK, all that is great folks, thanks and I agree. Except for JB, though, I'm not seeing any references to articles in medical journal (is there such a thing?). I can't just give her "another opinion"....even if I agree. :winkgrin: Doesn't help that that's the way her trainer's horse was raised and now he's a GP horse. :confused:

[YankeeLawyer]

Same as Waterwitch. They should be out as much as possible. Our first foal crop was raised 12 hours in/12 hours out and developed temporary wood chewing problems (resolved upon 24 hr t/o) and were unruly to handle after stall-keeping due to excess energy buildup. Now they are quiet, well mannered, no behavior issues and are well-socialized and very happy!

I have done a 12/12 schedule with foals and never had wood chewing or unruly behavior. I think they should be out more, but really I had 0 problems on a 12/12 schedule.

[propspony]

So what do those of you do who live in Southern Cali, or any other place where turn out doesn't really exist? I've always been a bit reluctant to breed because our only access to turn out would be overnighting in the (reasonably large) riding arena.

So what do those California breeders do?

[Signature]

I have done a 12/12 schedule with foals and never had wood chewing or unruly behavior. I think they should be out more, but really I had 0 problems on a 12/12 schedule.

YL, we had a couple that were fine, but mosty the colts were rarin' to go when we got home from work :)

The ONLY issue I have with 24 hr t/o is that they don't get a ton of leading. When they were in part of the day they got lead in and out daily, which definitely was beneficial. It's very easy to just let them hang out when they are all out in the field! :)

[JB]

Dune, ask her, seriously, if she thinks human children should be locked in their rooms except for 1 hour of recess play a day. Somethings people get caught in the mindset of "but it's an animal" and forget that there is a mind attached to it, as well as muscles (including the heart) and ligaments and tendons and bones all connected. Don't make light of the question, but get her thinking in terms of human youngsters.

[Tiki]

I would feed the mares in the run-in shed and halter the little guys and do all my lead training and picking up feet while Mum was eating. I would start with leading them around in a little circle right next to Mum, then lead them back and forth behind her, then out, away from her and back. Teach them to stand and let me pick up their feet and rub them all over and brush them, handle their ears, etc. It only took 10 or 15 minutes at the absolute most and/or they would run out of interest. All that very quickly led to them leaving their Mum while out grazing, coming up to me, and putting their heads into their halters and letting me lead them around, away from Mum.

[Dressage_Diva333]

Mine are out 24/7 once they hit about 14 days old (unless there is some reason suggesting that they shouldn't be). I leave my barn open so that they have the wide breezeway, and three stalls all the time. They have plenty of shade during the day. My pasture is large, there is a decent amount of flat ground at the top, then a hill that I think is great for the babies to learn how to use those legs on!

I think that turnout is imperitive in young horses (all horses really, but definatly more-so with the youngsters). Occasionally I will lock them up during the day if the air quality is bad due to a nearby fire, when I don't want them running around and inhaling the smoke. Or if it's really just unbearably hot, then I'll put them in for a few hours during the heat of the day. Normally that is avoided though, as I set up sprinklers that the foals seem to really enjoy.

[Dressage-ryder]

Mine start having the option to be in the stall or outside on an acre around 3-4 days old. Once they are 4 weeks old they move into the mare and foal pasture 24/7. Tons of acres of grass, hills and cranky mares! Makes for wonderful sweet foals :)

[Indy-lou]

I think the thing to remember is that when foals have access to turn out all of the time, they will walk around most of the time (most important factor), sleep a lot (as foals do), and have short intervals of play time throughout the day. With adequate turn out, they get to do this at their own pace. When you have them penned and turn them out for a short time in a big arena, you are going to get mad galloping for a short, intense period. Repeat daily. Not at all what would happen in a natural situation. The short, but intense gallop period is fraught with danger and much more likely to cause trauma/injury. It's like being a "weekend warrior": being sedentary most of the time, but playing sports on the weekend. Guaranteed to wear and tear and damage developing joints. Plus, a 24 x 24 pen is plain BORING to a young horse, with no opportunity to learn to play or socialize or investigate things.

[Kareen]

I couldn't agree more with those who advocate 24/7. The handling is easily introduced to the point where the foal trusts people and can be led around, pick feet, groom etc. with just a few sessions dedicated to the matter. I don't think you have to play with them every day to have a trainable, peopleloving 3yo. Ours are out 24/7 throughout the year on both soft and hard footing and they seem to be doing very well with it. The only reasons why I would take a foal in is in order to prep for a sales event, have it handy for a necessary procedure (farrier, medical treatment...) or if it needs to be confined for health reasons. Those are all very rare occasions on our farm so as a result we can manage them with a very small amount of boxstalls which are not only pricey to build but also intense to entertain. Most of our stable room is open stalls where they can go in and out. These are not only easier to care for (can do most things by tractor) but also much less to build and entertain so they help to keep things economical and they still have a nice and comfy place to rest or find shelter (mostly for the flies but some go in when it rains or snows).

[camohn]

I have a friend that has a lovely Friesian colt this year from her mare. He is now 3 months old. She is basically raising him with his mom in a 24x24 corral with turnout into a sandy arena for *maybe* an hour a day. She's a newbie, and asked my opinion on whether or not this was enough for the foal's development. OF course, I said it wasn't, but her trainer says, "It's not ideal, but we're not doing him any harm either." I have NO idea why she asked my opinion. :winkgrin::lol: Other than just voicing my opinion/feeling (for whatever that's worth:rolleyes:), are there any articles that I could point her toward? Or is her trainer right, and it's "not doing any harm"??? I just feel bad for the little guy. There are no health issues that would preclude him from being turned out 24/7 other than, since he's black and a heat-sensitive breed, having some shade. Thanks for any and all help!:)

Living in that much is a great way to inhibit bone/tendon development and increase the risk of colic as the horse needs to be able to move around for the colon to function properly.

[camohn]

I think the thing to remember is that when foals have access to turn out all of the time, they will walk around most of the time (most important factor), sleep a lot (as foals do), and have short intervals of play time throughout the day. With adequate turn out, they get to do this at their own pace. When you have them penned and turn them out for a short time in a big arena, you are going to get mad galloping for a short, intense period. Repeat daily. Not at all what would happen in a natural situation. The short, but intense gallop period is fraught with danger and much more likely to cause trauma/injury. It's like being a "weekend warrior": being sedentary most of the time, but playing sports on the weekend. Guaranteed to wear and tear and damage developing joints. Plus, a 24 x 24 pen is plain BORING to a young horse, with no opportunity to learn to play or socialize or investigate things.

ditto on the injury risk from being stupid when the kid finally DOES get out.....
FWIW ours live out 24/7 with the exception of weather extermes once they are anything from 2 days to 2 weeks old (it depends on the foal and the weather there.......)

[Tamara in TN]

Living in that much is a great way to inhibit bone/tendon development and increase the risk of colic as the horse needs to be able to move around for the colon to function properly.


and...no matter how much feed or brushing or polishing goes on...they still look like slab sided, "dirt lot" raised babies....a horseman can tell the difference in a split second...

[AnnaCrew]

I do not know, maybe picture will help better than words
http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/qq222/ozolkalni/04-06-09Safi%20first%20walk/PICT1515.jpg

Here is my rescue yearling who was growing without proper turnout up to 12 months.
Her coat is still dull, her legs deformed seriously (and probably will never heal completely), and she still can not keep up with 2 month old foal who went out on the next day after birth and since 4th day is out 24/7 (with a run in shelter). The speed, jump, perkiness, intelligence, learning ability difference between foal 24/7 and this poor yearling is incredible. It is so sad watch them both playing - lil one is running free and happy like world belongs to her, and poor yearling gives up all the time - she just can not keep the pace.

[YankeeLawyer]

I couldn't agree more with those who advocate 24/7. The handling is easily introduced to the point where the foal trusts people and can be led around, pick feet, groom etc. with just a few sessions dedicated to the matter. I don't think you have to play with them every day to have a trainable, peopleloving 3yo. Ours are out 24/7 throughout the year on both soft and hard footing and they seem to be doing very well with it. The only reasons why I would take a foal in is in order to prep for a sales event, have it handy for a necessary procedure (farrier, medical treatment...) or if it needs to be confined for health reasons. Those are all very rare occasions on our farm so as a result we can manage them with a very small amount of boxstalls which are not only pricey to build but also intense to entertain. Most of our stable room is open stalls where they can go in and out. These are not only easier to care for (can do most things by tractor) but also much less to build and entertain so they help to keep things economical and they still have a nice and comfy place to rest or find shelter (mostly for the flies but some go in when it rains or snows).

So do you have fewer box stalls than horses? I am asking because we are running out of stalls at my farm and I am wondering if we really need to build more (say yes so that you are not an enabler ; )). What would you do, though, if the weather is such that everyone has to come in (e.g., ice storm)?

[Dune]

Ok, maybe we can take the stall question to another thread as I'd then like to ask since we are in a location where land is at a premium: What would be the SMALLEST sized area that you would deem acceptable?? I'm doubting that she could even find locally a 1/4 to *maybe* 1/2 acre of some grass, some sandy soil. Ground here goes from super sandy/soft to clay/rock hard and NOT much in between. I know what is ideal, but what would be the minimum??? I know she's going to look at it and say, "Well, it's not *that* much bigger than what they have right now!". :sigh::rolleyes:

[propspony]

and this is my question as well, since to find a situation like ones people have on the east coast/midwest I would have to ship a mare hours away to a completely different state to live with strangers, who may or may not be taking care of her properly.

So... what are some other options one can do when one lives in an area where land for turnout (other than arenas or small sand lots) doesn't exist.

I mean, obviously people raise babies out here... So. Cal has tons of horses... they can't *all* have come from the east.

[FriesianX]

My vet was talking about some studies having to do with the development of good heel and foot too - that without lengthy daily exercise on hard surfaces (bare foot), the heel and frog support don't develop properly, and you end up with all kinds of feet problems later on. And another vet I know mentioned that she read something about even foals turned out 24/7, but on soft ground (wetter climates, etc) had less naturally well balanced and developed feet. I'll have to ask both vets if they can give me a source on those studies! Both are also horse owners.

I would worry about both physical AND mental well being of a stalled foal.

[FriesianX]

and this is my question as well, since to find a situation like ones people have on the east coast/midwest I would have to ship a mare hours away to a completely different state to live with strangers, who may or may not be taking care of her properly.

So... what are some other options one can do when one lives in an area where land for turnout (other than arenas or small sand lots) doesn't exist.

I mean, obviously people raise babies out here... So. Cal has tons of horses... they can't *all* have come from the east.

Propspony - I think the breeders that ARE in So-Cal do have property - they are tucked away in canyon land, or are in the Tehachapis, or are just on the other side of the "hill" (such as DG Bar). Or are further North, in the Central Valley area where there is plenty of hard, dry land;)

[Dune]

Propspony - I think the breeders that ARE in So-Cal do have property - they are tucked away in canyon land, or are in the Tehachapis, or are just on the other side of the "hill" (such as DG Bar). Or are further North, in the Central Valley area where there is plenty of hard, dry land;)


True but most of the land is FLAT (DG bar is) and the "pastures" are no where near as big as what east coast/Mid-west folks would call big...probably more like paddocks. I know what *I* have in mind but I'm curious what size other folks have in mind. Sending the horse out to unknowns is not going to work in this case, I know it's never worked for me either. :no:

[Dune]

Dune, ask her, seriously, if she thinks human children should be locked in their rooms except for 1 hour of recess play a day. Somethings people get caught in the mindset of "but it's an animal" and forget that there is a mind attached to it, as well as muscles (including the heart) and ligaments and tendons and bones all connected. Don't make light of the question, but get her thinking in terms of human youngsters.

Already tried that one. ;) Seriously, I don't know why folks ask your opinion and then when they don't like the answer, think of all sorts of reasons/excuses. :confused:

[Home Again Farm]

Already tried that one. ;) Seriously, I don't know why folks ask your opinion and then when they don't like the answer, think of all sorts of reasons/excuses. :confused:

Sadly, I think because they want validation for what seems wrong enough for them to ask in the first place. When the validation doesn't come, the denial starts, because that is easier or cheaper than doing the right thing.

And I will second or third the cry - OCD!!!

[Tamara in TN]

Already tried that one. ;) Seriously, I don't know why folks ask your opinion and then when they don't like the answer, think of all sorts of reasons/excuses. :confused:

they don't want "opinion"

they want "approval";)

[stoicfish]

This is sad. I wonder if you gave a local area if someone could recommend a healthier place for this persons mare and foal. I think the above posts are correct in stating this person wants validation or approval. But maybe the reason they are not accepting the answer is because they feel they didn't have any other options and where just looking to feel better about that. There must be other places that have a bigger turn out or a local breeder that might consider boarding them? Any help or suggestions?

[Dune]

I do not know, maybe picture will help better than words
http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/qq222/ozolkalni/04-06-09Safi%20first%20walk/PICT1515.jpg

Here is my rescue yearling who was growing without proper turnout up to 12 months.
Her coat is still dull, her legs deformed seriously (and probably will never heal completely), and she still can not keep up with 2 month old foal who went out on the next day after birth and since 4th day is out 24/7 (with a run in shelter). The speed, jump, perkiness, intelligence, learning ability difference between foal 24/7 and this poor yearling is incredible. It is so sad watch them both playing - lil one is running free and happy like world belongs to her, and poor yearling gives up all the time - she just can not keep the pace.

Sorry about your boy, but this is a much different situation. They aren't being neglected, just not the amount of turnout we all think they should get. Actually, they both look fabulous and I would challenge anyone to know what's going on if they didn't know....still doesn't make it right, though. :no:

Sadly, I think because they want validation for what seems wrong enough for them to ask in the first place. When the validation doesn't come, the denial starts, because that is easier or cheaper than doing the right thing.

And I will second or third the cry - OCD!!!


Now, this is not something that I thought was caused by lack of turnout, I always thought it was diet and hereditary factors and a bit of the unknown. After all, if we *knew* then we could eradicate it, right? Are there any published studies that you can refer me to and I will show her?

they don't want "opinion"

they want "approval";)


You got that right! ;)

This is sad. I wonder if you gave a local area if someone could recommend a healthier place for this persons mare and foal. I think the above posts are correct in stating this person wants validation or approval. But maybe the reason they are not accepting the answer is because they feel they didn't have any other options and where just looking to feel better about that. There must be other places that have a bigger turn out or a local breeder that might consider boarding them? Any help or suggestions?


I'm going to look around at a few places for her, none of them are HUGE pastures, but should be better than what they have now. I'll let you know what she says....:yes:

[YankeeLawyer]

Now, this is not something that I thought was caused by lack of turnout, I always thought it was diet and hereditary factors and a bit of the unknown. After all, if we *knew* then we could eradicate it, right? Are there any published studies that you can refer me to and I will show her?

Multiple factors, including the amount of turnout/exercise available to the youngster, impact the likelihood of OCDs. This is something that should be so obvious to a trainer of an athlete that she should not need a study to show it (how do these people think bone and muscle develop?!?), but it happens that Dr. Ludwig Christmann led a comprehensive study on OCD formation, including the examination of the role of exercise in the growing foal. His report is here:
http://www.hanoverian.org/ahs_media/downloads/articles/OCD.pdf
See especially pages 5 through 7 and the summary chart on page 9. If your friends still persist, I would give up on them.

[Dune]

Multiple factors, including the amount of turnout/exercise available to the youngster, impact the likelihood of OCDs. This is something that should be so obvious to a trainer of an athlete that she should not need a study to show it (how do these people think bone and muscle develop?!?), but it happens that Dr. Ludwig Christmann led a comprehensive study on OCD formation, including the examination of the role of exercise in the growing foal. His report is here:
http://www.hanoverian.org/ahs_media/downloads/articles/OCD.pdf
See especially pages 5 through 7 and the summary chart on page 9. If your friends still persist, I would give up on them.

Thanks for that report, it was very helpful! That's exactly what I was looking for. I'll share that with her and see what happens, don't worry I'm not going to spend too much time on it. Actually, everyone here has done all the work for me, I haven't talked to her again yet but will soon.

[YankeeLawyer]

Thanks for that report, it was very helpful! That's exactly what I was looking for. I'll share that with her and see what happens, don't worry I'm not going to spend too much time on it. Actually, everyone here has done all the work for me, I haven't talked to her again yet but will soon.

You are a good friend to them (and to the horse). I hope they appreciate that!

[buschkn]

YL- I think you asked about having more horses than stalls? I have WAY more horses than stalls! At least right now. I have 2 stalls, with a 15 stall barn in the works but not done. I have 15 horses here right now I think, some mine some boarders. All live out 24/7 in small groups with run ins. We had one of the worst ice storms ever this year and mine all still stayed out. Didn't really seem to care at all. They just walk more carefully and I make sure they always have free choice hay. :) Even the horses I get off the track and horses used to show barns where they lived inside all the time get used to the outside life quickly and never seem any worse for the wear.

OP, I hope your friend can find a better situation for her foal. I think if people don't have the proper way to keep a baby they shouldn't be breeding. A foal should be allowed to run and play and explore like nature intended. :( That is a bummer, and you are doing a good thing trying to convince her to let her horse be a horse.

[stoicfish]

According to the report;
When foals are locked up in a stall for several days, the movement is blocked. Once the foals are turned out they run and romp excessively. The unprepared joints are at that moment exposed to tremendous stress, which could have a negative impact on the cartilage tissue.
If I had a foal that was in a restricted area for that long, I would be very careful letting them out. It would seem that one should build up their conditioning before "just" letting them out. So how would one do that?

BTW, thank-you YankeeLawyer for posting the article, some good information.

[YankeeLawyer]

BTW, thank-you YankeeLawyer for posting the article, some good information.

No problem : ).

[Kareen]

to YL: Yes that's right (fewer boxstalls than horses). They *can* all come in if they like. But they rarely do except for eating, fly-protection and to sleep when the ground is wet outside.
Luckily Germany is a country where we have little to no severe weather. Rain and wet ground is a problem though in many areas here (turning small pastures into mud within days) so you have to do something about keeping the pathways passable. We either have tarmac or grits where the horses go and stand and luckily our local soil here is comparably poor so not much clay but more of a sand and moor ground.
The run-in sheds I never use for feeding so in order to not encourage rank-fighting in them. During the winter I feed concentrates in individual feeders which I hang on the fence with 8m apart each. If it rains or snows they still eat their concentrates out. Hay/Haylage is offered ad lib. in feeders that are roofed to protect the forage from water. Those are pricey but worth their weight in gold to me as they save a lot of food that would otherwise be trampled into mud or pooped upon.

[YankeeLawyer]

Thanks, Kareen and Buschkn. : )

[FriesianX]

True but most of the land is FLAT (DG bar is) and the "pastures" are no where near as big as what east coast/Mid-west folks would call big...probably more like paddocks. I know what *I* have in mind but I'm curious what size other folks have in mind. Sending the horse out to unknowns is not going to work in this case, I know it's never worked for me either. :no:

I'm curious too? DG Bar is flat, granted. But there is a lot of decent pasture land still available in Northern CA. I have 100 acres of rolling hills. Most of my pastures are 5 to 10 acres, and what I call the "small turnouts" are probably closer to 1/2 acre :lol: Those are for the riding horses. The old Glenwood breeding facility had pastures of several acres each (granted, mostly flat land) for their foals. I talked to someone a while back that had 50 acres of hills in So-Cal. So I DO think there are plenty of breeders around here that have more than just paddocks.

And I do really believe young horses need that space for both mental AND physical development. I don't think OCD is the only concern, I think young horses develop vices when they dont' have enough to do.

And I've got a friend who has had two horses who were "hot house flowers" from a very early age, and both of them are neurotic, hard keepers, easily injured (and always getting injured), always lame, etc. Totally different bloodlines - but both came from the same breeder who kept all babies stalled and in 12x24 paddocks. I think a lot of their issues come from starting off life the wrong way :(

[YankeeLawyer]

I seriously doubt most WB breeders have 100+ acres of rolling hills. We don't. Our pastures are each 3-5 acres, and there are 2-3 horses on each, unless it is a broodmare / foal turnout, in which case they are turned out in pairs (2 mares and their two foals). The pasture is of sufficient quality that there is grass nearly year round, and we only have to supplement with hay in inclement weather. They get free choice hay when stalled.

In other regions, the pasture land is not as good and one horse might need 3 acres or more (eg, arid parts of Texas) to have any grass.

[Dune]

Well, something is better than nothing, right?:uhoh: The current "solution", such as it is, is a dirt paddock with free choice hay that is about the size of a dressage arena. Footing is firm, not arena sand, so some "bone building" should be able to happen. There is a possibility of, after getting used to neighbors, going out with another mare and her colt but it would be in this smallish area and I don't know if that's such a good idea. If I recommend that and something happens, I'm toast.;) There was a better option as far as space goes: a 3 acre pasture with 4 mares and their foals, BUT they will all be weaned at the end of September and this colt is a late one and will still be on his mom until Nov/Dec. They'd have to get used to a herd situation quickly, then be moved again in less than a month, then either weaned early OR back to the small paddock. Another consideration is that the mare's feet are going to hell in a hand basket, so turnout *now* when she's not up to par isn't a good idea either....especially if she needs to "get moving" because of another mare. :sigh:

[Amoroso]

We have 77 acres, our largest pasture is 45 acres and that is where our mare and foal pairs go out. Otherwise, we have some smaller pastures and paddocks for anything that needs to be kept more confined. We generally keep our mares in stalls for foaling, paddock with the foal for the first two weeks and then they go out!

[Go Fish]

I have a 10-acre "nursery" field with two run in sheds. If there are no physical issues, the foals go out at 24 hours old (after vet inspection) and stay out 24/7. Shoot, I'll even have the mares foal outside if the weather's good.

They come in with their mothers every 4-6 weeks when the mare needs a trim. I'll fuss with the foal a bit, maybe have them trimmed, teach them to lead and tie, brush, just mess with them while Mom is tied up with the shoer. I really don't spend much time with them until they are two. I want them civil before they go to the trainer at 3.

[stoicfish]

We have 77 acres, our largest pasture is 45 acres and that is where our mare and foal pairs go out. Otherwise, we have some smaller pastures and paddocks for anything that needs to be kept more confined. We generally keep our mares in stalls for foaling, paddock with the foal for the first two weeks and then they go out!

Yes, we are lucky in Alberta to have land avalible at a decent price! Ca- not so much.
Very glad the mare and foal is in a bigger area!!